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Sign up now at 51 00:01:57.719 --> 00:01:59.760 Chumba casino dot com. 52 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.799 It never they lost the term conditions eating pluss. 53 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.639 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 54 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:18.759 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 55 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:26.120 written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every 56 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 57 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:34.479 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 58 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.360 journalist and author Dan Zufansky. 59 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:51.479 Good Evening. They stared into the faces of pure evil 60 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:57.560 and survived. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, David's son of Sam Berkowitz, 61 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.599 Dennis Raider, the bt Killer, b t K Killer. These 62 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:05.520 are some of the names that strike terror into even 63 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:10.240 the bravest of hearts. Human monsters, they preyed upon the unsuspecting, 64 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:16.000 freely feeding their terrible hungers. Their crimes were unspeakable, as 65 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:20.199 they maimed, tortured, killed and killed again, leaving so many 66 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:25.240 dead in their bloody wake. But somehow astonishingly, seven would 67 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:27.840 be victims fell into the clutches of the centuries. Were 68 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:33.960 serial killers and escaped death through courage, divine providence, or 69 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:37.599 just plain luck. This is the remarkable true story of 70 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:41.039 those who lived the book that were featuring this evening. 71 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:44.520 Is there but for the grace of God survivors of 72 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:48.479 the twentieth century's infamous serial killers, with my special guest, 73 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:52.919 journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, 74 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.319 and again, thank you very much for a greeted this 75 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.199 interview Fred Rosa Dead. 76 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.000 It's oh LEAs my pleasure to be on. Uh. You know, 77 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.199 when when time goes on and I haven't talked to 78 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.199 you in a while, I get Sutansky with you all, so, 79 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.199 you know. But you know, this is an interesting book 80 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:21.240 too to talk about. Actually it really you know, some 81 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:27.279 books you you you know, they change you a bit, 82 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.000 you know what I mean, and they stay with you 83 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:34.240 and other you know, I mean, it's you know, it's 84 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:36.839 like any kind of work. I think in that respect, 85 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:41.040 some jobs you know you remember, and boy, this one 86 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:43.120 is it's right up there. 87 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:48.399 You were in a certain place in your life and 88 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.720 a certain position in your career at that time. So 89 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.279 tell us where you were at that time, what year 90 00:04:54.439 --> 00:04:58.560 was this, and exactly where you were in your life 91 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.800 before you endeavored to write this book. 92 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.920 Wow, this was in two thousand and six, two thousand 93 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:12.399 and seven, and where I was was I was sort 94 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:16.079 of changing the kinds of cases I was writing about, 95 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:23.839 and I wanted to get more into oh you know, 96 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:28.279 I wanted to find out more about the people who survived, 97 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:33.040 which is what brought this one up. And at the 98 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:39.800 same time, personally, what was happening was, oh, my couple 99 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:42.079 of things. I mean at that point, my marriage was 100 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.639 breaking up. My mother got hit by a car, you know, 101 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:51.279 a hurricane and made her homeless. I mean, then you 102 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.519 name it. You know. It was like all this stuff 103 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:55.480 is going on at the same time. And there I 104 00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:00.360 am on the road in Louisville into interviewing Where you 105 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:05.600 Survived Kid twenty You talk about perspective, you know what 106 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:06.000 I mean? 107 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:15.920 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now you particularly chose some spectacular cases 108 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:19.160 and spectacular killers, and then just to top it off, 109 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.759 some spectacular stories of survivals survivors. And you start this 110 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.759 book with we talk about serial killer Derek Todd Lee 111 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.959 from Batman to Louisiana. And before we talk about him, 112 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:38.319 we could talk about your meeting, because this is really 113 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:41.720 the most interesting part of this book, and a fascinating 114 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:46.240 part and a unique perspective is survivors and from the 115 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.519 famous people. So you went to Sammy's Grill to meet 116 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:54.199 this woman that survived, Michelle Whitehead at twenty eight years old, 117 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.160 at former Michelle Chapman. She'd married now eight years at 118 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:01.199 that time when you spoke to her, just a little 119 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:05.800 bit of a woman, five foot tall pounds. She had 120 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:11.399 come with her mother. So tell us about this incredible meeting, right, Well, 121 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:12.920 what happened. 122 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:17.199 Was it was in a town called Zachary, which is 123 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.759 pretty rural southside of Baton Rouge. And I was meeting 124 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:28.680 with Michelle and her mom and her dad, and they 125 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.360 all came to talk. And she had not spoken about 126 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:42.360 the case before publicly. And it was it was a 127 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.160 Friday night. This is one of the That's what I'm 128 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:47.360 getting at. It's like it's one of those things where 129 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.959 you could feel it, you know what I mean. It's 130 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.000 like it was a Friday night, and you know, there 131 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:58.000 we were in you know, you know, in the wilds 132 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:03.800 of Louisiana, and I'm asking her questions about this guy 133 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:11.720 that had had been she'd been necking in a cemetery, 134 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.639 not something I've ever done on my dad. But anyway, 135 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.120 she's necking in a cemetery with a boyfriend and that's 136 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.600 when the serial killer, she didn't know at the time, 137 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.560 he gets in the car with a sword cane. Oh my, 138 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.680 you know, you can't make this stuff up, you know, 139 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.200 a sword I was reading this, Dan, I'm going, where 140 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:38.279 the hell did this guy get a sword cane? You 141 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:42.639 know that's not you know, but in any case, you know, 142 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.799 there's so much physical damage, you know, that's the thing 143 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.720 that I discovered. You know, besides the physical damage that 144 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:57.720 occurs to her and a boyfriend, the emotional damage is. Man, 145 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:01.440 I gotta tell you, it's a hundred times war. You 146 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.879 could feel it, you know, you could feel it. You 147 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:09.879 could feel the the the the the as you as 148 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.840 I was talking to these individuals, you could feel the 149 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:19.000 the the the It's not so much grief, but it's 150 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:21.919 call it lost innocence. I don't know what else could 151 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:25.000 call it, you know what I mean, They've lost something 152 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:27.519 in their lives and it was something that they would 153 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:31.840 never get back. How about I put it that way? Right? 154 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.559 You talk about this that at that time when she 155 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.919 was escaped and narrowly escaped, a killer. He ran off 156 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:45.879 and set almost severed her ankle. The zachary DA's office, 157 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.159 and this book is peppered with again, unfortunately missteps by 158 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:53.320 law enforcement. And then later we'll talk about your take 159 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.320 on the FBI profile. But I loved it. But the 160 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:01.879 zachary DA's office didn't not choose to prosecute because the 161 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.440 assault weapon, again, the sword cane, had been dropped in 162 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:05.879 the rain. 163 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:12.399 Yeah, and that bothered me a lot. You know, it 164 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:19.440 really bothered me. Oh boy, you know, I guess what 165 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.039 I'm you know, what bothered me was that they had, 166 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:27.480 you know, if they had prosecuted this guy, and I'm 167 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:31.159 sure it bothers everybody who's close to this with a conscience, 168 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.799 if they prosecuted him at that point, they would have 169 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:38.720 saved lives. Of course, you know now they claimed they 170 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.159 couldn't because the only piece of physical evidence tying him 171 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:48.480 into the to Mischelle and a boyfriend's assault was the 172 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:50.440 what do you call it? The sword cane. It was 173 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:53.080 in the in the you know, he dropped it. It 174 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:56.559 was in the water and blop blah blah. But you 175 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:01.720 know what, I'm sorry, I just thought buy it, you know, hell, 176 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:04.559 you know, I don't know about you, but I've watched it. 177 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.120 It's the I as you know, I get McGee on 178 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:12.759 it in a second, not to mention Abby. Okay, okay, 179 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.639 that's that's that's my popular reference to the Guitarre show. 180 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.639 Yeah. Absolutely, you also said too, they had some problem. 181 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:25.919 Again I don't know the prosecutorial issues, but they said 182 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.120 they only had Michelle Chapman's idea and it wasn't enough. 183 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:29.960 I'll switch. 184 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.159 That's what they said, you know, that's what they said. 185 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:36.480 So therefore they couldn't go. You know, that's what they said. 186 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.639 And and you know, I'm reading, you know, I mean, 187 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.200 I'm talking. I talked to some of these individuals. I 188 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:47.159 read their you know, the you know, the police the 189 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:52.679 police statements and so forth, and man, Dan, I just 190 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:57.039 it really bothered me. And I'll tell you the funny 191 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:59.480 thing is, I, you know, I hadn't even thought of that. 192 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:02.559 So today, well, you know, when I started re reading 193 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:08.559 the book and reminding myself of stuff, and you know, 194 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.360 to me, it represents a certain level of corruption, I 195 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.639 suppose whatever. 196 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.159 Well, I don't know. I think we read obviously this 197 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.039 person was arrested, and we'll read even in this story 198 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:25.360 that there's some bright and good police work. So that's 199 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.879 what happens. It's just it's sad to say in retrospect, jeez, 200 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.519 this could have happened. That could happened. But you know, 201 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.320 not too many of us want to be homicide detectives either. 202 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:37.600 So in this though, what you talk about is, and 203 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.159 certainly this is not the first time, but this misstep, 204 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:43.919 if we can call it, that leads to all kinds 205 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:52.200 of other bodies and nurses strangled GERALDN DeSoto January fourteen, 206 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:58.120 two thousand and two. Gina Green was September fourteen, two 207 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:00.919 thousand and one. But you talk about the same time, 208 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.559 and and you talk about the person, Michelle Chapman, what 209 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:07.480 she does in her life, and you talk about the 210 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.679 physical therapy for her ankle for a year, but she 211 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:12.840 had this determination to stay in school. 212 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:13.759 Uh. 213 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:16.879 But we also talk about the other person, her partner, 214 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:21.240 Ricky Johnson. So two people in a simile in the 215 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:25.200 same incident, but they were faring a little bit differently, 216 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:29.480 maybe because of Michelle's attitude, but also Ricky's injury as well. 217 00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:34.559 Right, Yeah, No, I mean, you're just you're really wow, 218 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.720 you know, it's I mean, again, I was reading the material. 219 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:44.440 The material can author his word for his book. I 220 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:46.559 was reading the book again, because you know, you don't 221 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.519 always remember every day, but I read it, and you know, 222 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.879 and I'll tell you what you just got into was 223 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:59.120 had these two people, this couple. Think about this for 224 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:04.720 a second, folks, This couple sitting in a car and 225 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:10.120 the bad guy comes in. He and they're kissing, and 226 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:13.120 you know, they're making out and so forth, and he 227 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:17.840 protects her no words. This is a push comes to 228 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:23.919 chef's situation, ladies and gentleman. And where it gets interesting 229 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.960 is that what happens after that, Well, they both have 230 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:32.480 physical injuries, but they wind up having I have to 231 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:37.000 use that term, a love child together. They're no longer together, 232 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:43.240 But isn't that interesting? I mean, I think that's really interesting, 233 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.240 you know. I mean, I you know that you know, 234 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.519 they go through all of this stuff, you know, and 235 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:55.279 he you know, and she fights Derek Todley too. I mean, 236 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.840 these people didn't give up. And boy, you know again 237 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:03.519 that says so much to me. You know, God forbid 238 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.240 any of us should ever be in this kind of 239 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.279 a situation. But these people wouldn't give up. And that's 240 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.240 the one commonality of all the all the people that 241 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:14.840 I spoke to in the book, not one of them 242 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.720 would give up. Isn't that interesting? I mean, you know, 243 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.440 you know, you know it's it's not one of them 244 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:27.000 he could you know when I got you know, and 245 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.360 you could see it on their face, in their in 246 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:34.519 their the way they held themselves and so forth. You know, 247 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.440 I have to I guess what I'm really saying here 248 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:42.279 is we're talking. I'm realizing that this. You know, I 249 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.879 don't like to talk a lot about God and stuff 250 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:50.879 like that, you know, but I feel like this stuff 251 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.759 touched me, you know, my spirit is what I wanted 252 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.039 to say, if you will, you know, because of the 253 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.799 individuals I was talking to, what had happened to them? 254 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:05.960 Evil they face, I mean, you know, it's unbelievable to me. 255 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.159 I mean I just you could feel it, Dan, I 256 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.960 know this sounds weird, man, but I mean it. I 257 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.720 could feel the evil of these individuals. 258 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:25.240 Well obviously they know, you know, they've experienced these incredible 259 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:31.639 aberrations of humanity, these monsters in human form here. But 260 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:34.720 you talk about how bad this gets as well, just 261 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:38.240 because of you know, an aptitude or mistakes. We'll just 262 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.039 chalk it up to some mistakes. We're talking about the 263 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.440 police finally believe they have a serial killer in the 264 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.679 midst and this is an incredible serial killer. So to 265 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.720 demonstrate that, in May thirty one, two thousand and two, 266 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:54.600 Charlotte Murray pace to stab eighty two times, throat cut, 267 00:16:54.600 --> 00:17:00.879 ear to ear, beaten with a clothes iron. So you know, 268 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.320 he was stepping up the pace and he was studying 269 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:08.960 escalating violent. They finally have somebody, though, I when you 270 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.240 talk about police ineptitude, I said mistakes, But we have 271 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:17.240 somebody named Danny Mixon, you know, and he fought hard 272 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.519 and looked hard and took his job very seriously over 273 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.119 and beyond, and he had Eric Lee Todd. Because you 274 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:27.480 talk about one of the funniest things, and this no 275 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:31.200 true crime books should be funny, but it's humorous because 276 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.359 of this. Again, sometimes the ineptitude is profound when the 277 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:38.359 FBI profilers and you're not the first person to criticize 278 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:44.359 the entire science in quotations of a forensic profile or 279 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:49.599 a parton me of profiling, and so tell us what 280 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.000 the profilers thought, and because you do take some time 281 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.440 to show how wrong they could be and what the 282 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:59.240 effect could be tell us a little bit about Danny 283 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:00.720 Mixon and the FBI. 284 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:08.079 Well, just as far as the profiling is concerned, this 285 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:11.319 is you know, this is pretty stand You know, there 286 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:19.119 there is a well I don't know if it still exists, 287 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.039 but I'll just say that certainly when I reported on it, 288 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:28.839 that it was almost an innate prejudice that, uh, serial 289 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:34.160 killers going to be African Americans, that be white guy, sure, 290 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:40.640 that be white guys. And and I should mention that 291 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.039 I don't know if you've ever interviewed Maurice Godwin, doctor 292 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:51.039 Maurice Godway. No, Well, Maurice Godwin is a guy I met. 293 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.440 Oh it's got to be fifteen years ago, maybe more. 294 00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.319 But he is one of the world. He is certainly 295 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:05.680 the United States is he is certainly the biggest expert 296 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:11.720 in the United States on geographic profiling. And we did 297 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.599 a book together years and years ago. And the point is, 298 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.559 Maurice learned. I didn't realize this, you know that this 299 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.640 is like a He went to a one of a 300 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:27.119 kind of school at the Liverpool, you know, University of Liverpool. 301 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.440 I don't know. Paul McCartney might have been one of 302 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.359 his teachers. Who knows but I got it in Okay. 303 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:39.240 But anyway, here's the thing. Geographic profiling. What they're able 304 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.440 to do and see, this is where we would have 305 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.359 come into play, and especially in what we're talking about 306 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:52.640 with Derek Toddley and Louisiana. You can pinpoint what the 307 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.319 guy's area is that he's going to operate at. You 308 00:19:55.319 --> 00:20:01.680 can even pinpoint where he's going to operate next. This 309 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.240 is how sophisticated it can be. But you've got to 310 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.200 get access to that technology. And there's your problem, right 311 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.079 there makes no difference where you are unless you've got 312 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.680 access to that technology. You got yourself a problem. And 313 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:17.359 it's not going to do you any good to call 314 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.000 up the FBI and say, behavioral science, would you lucky 315 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:24.279 know what the guy looks like? Oh he's a white guy, 316 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.240 he's middle class, doesn't have munch of an education, blah 317 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:34.880 blah blah. You know, sorry, folks, let's you know, let's 318 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:36.400 come into the twenty first century. 319 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:45.079 So anyway, yeah, it's pretty it can be generic. And 320 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:50.559 obviously they've had many cases where their profile was absolutely 321 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:53.400 wrong and it didn't they say, well, it's not a science, 322 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.119 it's just a tool. But if it's a tool that 323 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:58.240 doesn't lead you astray, then maybe it shouldn't be so 324 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.799 highly regarded. And there have been some successes, but it 325 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.440 seems like a lot more non success but it looks 326 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:10.519 like it's again not maybe so reliant anyway on when 327 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:12.200 they brought it in for the big cases, it didn't 328 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:15.640 seem to do much. But you have this old fashioned 329 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.200 police work where you have Danny Mixon. He looks at 330 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.839 he looks at Lee's prison record, and he says, Okay, 331 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.359 they got these low level felonies and misdemeanors, but when 332 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:30.079 he was out, these attacks and murders occurred. So you 333 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.079 can call that profiling of sorts, but just basic police 334 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:37.039 work where he had a hunch and then he had 335 00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:38.599 it if he had a DNA symbol. 336 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.160 So' isn't that interesting? What you just pointed out, What 337 00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.039 you really just pointed out, Dan, is that at the 338 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.640 end of the day, with all of the technology and 339 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:55.400 all this old fashion logic and shoe leather, yep, and really, 340 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.000 you know, and and I know it sounds like a cliche, 341 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:04.720 but it's true. You know, it really is true, and 342 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:10.720 you know it's it's you know, it's I'll play you 343 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.720 something you know, when you go into small towns, and 344 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:20.039 I don't think it makes a difference whether it's in 345 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.960 the South, the northeast, the west. You know, what I've 346 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.279 learned is you go into a small town, okay, and 347 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.359 everybody knows everybody. Uh, of course you're going to have corruption, 348 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:39.400 you know, because it's everybody knows everybody. There's there's no oversight, 349 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:44.640 so you know, you know, and so when you start 350 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.000 dealing with what we're dealing with here, and corruption is 351 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.640 maybe I don't know if it's too strong a term, 352 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:55.519 but sure, you know, when you start dealing with a 353 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:01.200 serial killer, okay. You know what I sometimes I personally 354 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:05.160 wonder other people in law enforcement that really think Criminal 355 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:09.720 Minds is a really is real? The TV show. I 356 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:15.839 can't watch that show because it's all phony. I don't 357 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.640 think fiction. Would you give me, you know, fictional lies something, 358 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.599 don't make it up completely? You know. I wish I 359 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:27.359 could be here today and I you know, I don't 360 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:29.559 mean to keep railing, but I wish I could be 361 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:33.240 here today and say that you know that these dudes 362 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.759 you know, are catching serial killers right left, guess what 363 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.160 folks ain't happening? 364 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:43.599 You know, yeah, absolutely, because there's all start. There's also 365 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.039 like like you tried, like you say, there's the if 366 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.240 the serial killer or someone else. Ha said, the serial 367 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.519 killer fits the profile till they don't fit the profile. 368 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.519 So they fit the fit that description and stereotype, but 369 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.480 then lots of people just don't. And our next guy 370 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:02.599 that was talk about is exactly that, Dennis Raider and 371 00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:09.119 BTK and the surviver that you spoke to, Kevin Bright. Yeah, 372 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:13.640 you travel to Livingston, Texas, small little desolate places, say 373 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:17.759 to talk to five foot six, one hundred and forty pounds, 374 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:22.680 the only survivor of BTK. Yes, tell us about that meeting. 375 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.640 This is again it's I know, you know, you know, 376 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:34.039 I don't. I won't be I won't be a writer here, 377 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.880 I won't drama talks. It's not that it haunts me, 378 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:41.400 but I'll always remember it. And what happened was I 379 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.400 found him and he was Kevin was working as a cashier, 380 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:53.240 you know, Walmart in East East Texas and I've never 381 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.000 been to you know, I've been to Texas, but they 382 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.640 never been to East Texas. You know. Needless to say, 383 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.319 it's you know, in terms of the lower forty eight, 384 00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:09.759 it's the biggest and I remember walking into the you know, 385 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.400 I made up to meet him where he was working 386 00:25:13.400 --> 00:25:15.839 as a kissher and I walked in and I spotted 387 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.039 him immediately. I couldn't believe it. It was like, you know, 388 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:28.720 there was just something about him, and you know, I went, 389 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.839 I'll tell you that his sister just to sum it up, 390 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.759 interrupt me at any point there. But his sister, to 391 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:42.160 sum it up was he was in the same apartment 392 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:47.279 as his sister when BTK ambushed him, and he eventually 393 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:50.519 would kill his sister. And he survived it, shot and 394 00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:55.279 smothered and this and that. I say this and that, 395 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.599 but I mean all this, Oh my god, all this. 396 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.720 He was shot in the face and the jaw and 397 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:09.480 the guy got out. This is in Wichita, Kansas, and 398 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.920 I just thought of something. If this was one hundred 399 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:16.319 and twenty years ago, the marshal on the case would 400 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:21.519 have been whiter. But anyway, he gets out in the 401 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.599