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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. They stared into the faces of pure evil
Speaker 6: and survived. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, David's son of Sam Berkowitz,
Speaker 6: Dennis Raider, the bt Killer, b t K Killer. These
Speaker 6: are some of the names that strike terror into even
Speaker 6: the bravest of hearts. Human monsters, they preyed upon the unsuspecting,
Speaker 6: freely feeding their terrible hungers. Their crimes were unspeakable, as
Speaker 6: they maimed, tortured, killed and killed again, leaving so many
Speaker 6: dead in their bloody wake. But somehow astonishingly, seven would
Speaker 6: be victims fell into the clutches of the centuries. Were
Speaker 6: serial killers and escaped death through courage, divine providence, or
Speaker 6: just plain luck. This is the remarkable true story of
Speaker 6: those who lived the book that were featuring this evening.
Speaker 6: Is there but for the grace of God survivors of
Speaker 6: the twentieth century's infamous serial killers, with my special guest,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 6: and again, thank you very much for a greeted this
Speaker 6: interview Fred Rosa Dead.
Speaker 3: It's oh LEAs my pleasure to be on. Uh. You know,
Speaker 3: when when time goes on and I haven't talked to
Speaker 3: you in a while, I get Sutansky with you all, so,
Speaker 3: you know. But you know, this is an interesting book
Speaker 3: too to talk about. Actually it really you know, some
Speaker 3: books you you you know, they change you a bit,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, and they stay with you
Speaker 3: and other you know, I mean, it's you know, it's
Speaker 3: like any kind of work. I think in that respect,
Speaker 3: some jobs you know you remember, and boy, this one
Speaker 3: is it's right up there.
Speaker 6: You were in a certain place in your life and
Speaker 6: a certain position in your career at that time. So
Speaker 6: tell us where you were at that time, what year
Speaker 6: was this, and exactly where you were in your life
Speaker 6: before you endeavored to write this book.
Speaker 3: Wow, this was in two thousand and six, two thousand
Speaker 3: and seven, and where I was was I was sort
Speaker 3: of changing the kinds of cases I was writing about,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to get more into oh you know,
Speaker 3: I wanted to find out more about the people who survived,
Speaker 3: which is what brought this one up. And at the
Speaker 3: same time, personally, what was happening was, oh, my couple
Speaker 3: of things. I mean at that point, my marriage was
Speaker 3: breaking up. My mother got hit by a car, you know,
Speaker 3: a hurricane and made her homeless. I mean, then you
Speaker 3: name it. You know. It was like all this stuff
Speaker 3: is going on at the same time. And there I
Speaker 3: am on the road in Louisville into interviewing Where you
Speaker 3: Survived Kid twenty You talk about perspective, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now you particularly chose some spectacular cases
Speaker 6: and spectacular killers, and then just to top it off,
Speaker 6: some spectacular stories of survivals survivors. And you start this
Speaker 6: book with we talk about serial killer Derek Todd Lee
Speaker 6: from Batman to Louisiana. And before we talk about him,
Speaker 6: we could talk about your meeting, because this is really
Speaker 6: the most interesting part of this book, and a fascinating
Speaker 6: part and a unique perspective is survivors and from the
Speaker 6: famous people. So you went to Sammy's Grill to meet
Speaker 6: this woman that survived, Michelle Whitehead at twenty eight years old,
Speaker 6: at former Michelle Chapman. She'd married now eight years at
Speaker 6: that time when you spoke to her, just a little
Speaker 6: bit of a woman, five foot tall pounds. She had
Speaker 6: come with her mother. So tell us about this incredible meeting, right, Well,
Speaker 6: what happened.
Speaker 3: Was it was in a town called Zachary, which is
Speaker 3: pretty rural southside of Baton Rouge. And I was meeting
Speaker 3: with Michelle and her mom and her dad, and they
Speaker 3: all came to talk. And she had not spoken about
Speaker 3: the case before publicly. And it was it was a
Speaker 3: Friday night. This is one of the That's what I'm
Speaker 3: getting at. It's like it's one of those things where
Speaker 3: you could feel it, you know what I mean. It's
Speaker 3: like it was a Friday night, and you know, there
Speaker 3: we were in you know, you know, in the wilds
Speaker 3: of Louisiana, and I'm asking her questions about this guy
Speaker 3: that had had been she'd been necking in a cemetery,
Speaker 3: not something I've ever done on my dad. But anyway,
Speaker 3: she's necking in a cemetery with a boyfriend and that's
Speaker 3: when the serial killer, she didn't know at the time,
Speaker 3: he gets in the car with a sword cane. Oh my,
Speaker 3: you know, you can't make this stuff up, you know,
Speaker 3: a sword I was reading this, Dan, I'm going, where
Speaker 3: the hell did this guy get a sword cane? You
Speaker 3: know that's not you know, but in any case, you know,
Speaker 3: there's so much physical damage, you know, that's the thing
Speaker 3: that I discovered. You know, besides the physical damage that
Speaker 3: occurs to her and a boyfriend, the emotional damage is. Man,
Speaker 3: I gotta tell you, it's a hundred times war. You
Speaker 3: could feel it, you know, you could feel it. You
Speaker 3: could feel the the the the the as you as
Speaker 3: I was talking to these individuals, you could feel the
Speaker 3: the the the It's not so much grief, but it's
Speaker 3: call it lost innocence. I don't know what else could
Speaker 3: call it, you know what I mean, They've lost something
Speaker 3: in their lives and it was something that they would
Speaker 3: never get back. How about I put it that way? Right?
Speaker 6: You talk about this that at that time when she
Speaker 6: was escaped and narrowly escaped, a killer. He ran off
Speaker 6: and set almost severed her ankle. The zachary DA's office,
Speaker 6: and this book is peppered with again, unfortunately missteps by
Speaker 6: law enforcement. And then later we'll talk about your take
Speaker 6: on the FBI profile. But I loved it. But the
Speaker 6: zachary DA's office didn't not choose to prosecute because the
Speaker 6: assault weapon, again, the sword cane, had been dropped in
Speaker 6: the rain.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that bothered me a lot. You know, it
Speaker 3: really bothered me. Oh boy, you know, I guess what
Speaker 3: I'm you know, what bothered me was that they had,
Speaker 3: you know, if they had prosecuted this guy, and I'm
Speaker 3: sure it bothers everybody who's close to this with a conscience,
Speaker 3: if they prosecuted him at that point, they would have
Speaker 3: saved lives. Of course, you know now they claimed they
Speaker 3: couldn't because the only piece of physical evidence tying him
Speaker 3: into the to Mischelle and a boyfriend's assault was the
Speaker 3: what do you call it? The sword cane. It was
Speaker 3: in the in the you know, he dropped it. It
Speaker 3: was in the water and blop blah blah. But you
Speaker 3: know what, I'm sorry, I just thought buy it, you know, hell,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know about you, but I've watched it.
Speaker 3: It's the I as you know, I get McGee on
Speaker 3: it in a second, not to mention Abby. Okay, okay,
Speaker 3: that's that's that's my popular reference to the Guitarre show.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely, you also said too, they had some problem.
Speaker 6: Again I don't know the prosecutorial issues, but they said
Speaker 6: they only had Michelle Chapman's idea and it wasn't enough.
Speaker 6: I'll switch.
Speaker 3: That's what they said, you know, that's what they said.
Speaker 3: So therefore they couldn't go. You know, that's what they said.
Speaker 3: And and you know, I'm reading, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm talking. I talked to some of these individuals. I
Speaker 3: read their you know, the you know, the police the
Speaker 3: police statements and so forth, and man, Dan, I just
Speaker 3: it really bothered me. And I'll tell you the funny
Speaker 3: thing is, I, you know, I hadn't even thought of that.
Speaker 3: So today, well, you know, when I started re reading
Speaker 3: the book and reminding myself of stuff, and you know,
Speaker 3: to me, it represents a certain level of corruption, I
Speaker 3: suppose whatever.
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know. I think we read obviously this
Speaker 6: person was arrested, and we'll read even in this story
Speaker 6: that there's some bright and good police work. So that's
Speaker 6: what happens. It's just it's sad to say in retrospect, jeez,
Speaker 6: this could have happened. That could happened. But you know,
Speaker 6: not too many of us want to be homicide detectives either.
Speaker 6: So in this though, what you talk about is, and
Speaker 6: certainly this is not the first time, but this misstep,
Speaker 6: if we can call it, that leads to all kinds
Speaker 6: of other bodies and nurses strangled GERALDN DeSoto January fourteen,
Speaker 6: two thousand and two. Gina Green was September fourteen, two
Speaker 6: thousand and one. But you talk about the same time,
Speaker 6: and and you talk about the person, Michelle Chapman, what
Speaker 6: she does in her life, and you talk about the
Speaker 6: physical therapy for her ankle for a year, but she
Speaker 6: had this determination to stay in school.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 6: But we also talk about the other person, her partner,
Speaker 6: Ricky Johnson. So two people in a simile in the
Speaker 6: same incident, but they were faring a little bit differently,
Speaker 6: maybe because of Michelle's attitude, but also Ricky's injury as well.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, No, I mean, you're just you're really wow,
Speaker 3: you know, it's I mean, again, I was reading the material.
Speaker 3: The material can author his word for his book. I
Speaker 3: was reading the book again, because you know, you don't
Speaker 3: always remember every day, but I read it, and you know,
Speaker 3: and I'll tell you what you just got into was
Speaker 3: had these two people, this couple. Think about this for
Speaker 3: a second, folks, This couple sitting in a car and
Speaker 3: the bad guy comes in. He and they're kissing, and
Speaker 3: you know, they're making out and so forth, and he
Speaker 3: protects her no words. This is a push comes to
Speaker 3: chef's situation, ladies and gentleman. And where it gets interesting
Speaker 3: is that what happens after that, Well, they both have
Speaker 3: physical injuries, but they wind up having I have to
Speaker 3: use that term, a love child together. They're no longer together,
Speaker 3: But isn't that interesting? I mean, I think that's really interesting,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I you know that you know,
Speaker 3: they go through all of this stuff, you know, and
Speaker 3: he you know, and she fights Derek Todley too. I mean,
Speaker 3: these people didn't give up. And boy, you know again
Speaker 3: that says so much to me. You know, God forbid
Speaker 3: any of us should ever be in this kind of
Speaker 3: a situation. But these people wouldn't give up. And that's
Speaker 3: the one commonality of all the all the people that
Speaker 3: I spoke to in the book, not one of them
Speaker 3: would give up. Isn't that interesting? I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, you know it's it's not one of them
Speaker 3: he could you know when I got you know, and
Speaker 3: you could see it on their face, in their in
Speaker 3: their the way they held themselves and so forth. You know,
Speaker 3: I have to I guess what I'm really saying here
Speaker 3: is we're talking. I'm realizing that this. You know, I
Speaker 3: don't like to talk a lot about God and stuff
Speaker 3: like that, you know, but I feel like this stuff
Speaker 3: touched me, you know, my spirit is what I wanted
Speaker 3: to say, if you will, you know, because of the
Speaker 3: individuals I was talking to, what had happened to them?
Speaker 3: Evil they face, I mean, you know, it's unbelievable to me.
Speaker 3: I mean I just you could feel it, Dan, I
Speaker 3: know this sounds weird, man, but I mean it. I
Speaker 3: could feel the evil of these individuals.
Speaker 6: Well obviously they know, you know, they've experienced these incredible
Speaker 6: aberrations of humanity, these monsters in human form here. But
Speaker 6: you talk about how bad this gets as well, just
Speaker 6: because of you know, an aptitude or mistakes. We'll just
Speaker 6: chalk it up to some mistakes. We're talking about the
Speaker 6: police finally believe they have a serial killer in the
Speaker 6: midst and this is an incredible serial killer. So to
Speaker 6: demonstrate that, in May thirty one, two thousand and two,
Speaker 6: Charlotte Murray pace to stab eighty two times, throat cut,
Speaker 6: ear to ear, beaten with a clothes iron. So you know,
Speaker 6: he was stepping up the pace and he was studying
Speaker 6: escalating violent. They finally have somebody, though, I when you
Speaker 6: talk about police ineptitude, I said mistakes, But we have
Speaker 6: somebody named Danny Mixon, you know, and he fought hard
Speaker 6: and looked hard and took his job very seriously over
Speaker 6: and beyond, and he had Eric Lee Todd. Because you
Speaker 6: talk about one of the funniest things, and this no
Speaker 6: true crime books should be funny, but it's humorous because
Speaker 6: of this. Again, sometimes the ineptitude is profound when the
Speaker 6: FBI profilers and you're not the first person to criticize
Speaker 6: the entire science in quotations of a forensic profile or
Speaker 6: a parton me of profiling, and so tell us what
Speaker 6: the profilers thought, and because you do take some time
Speaker 6: to show how wrong they could be and what the
Speaker 6: effect could be tell us a little bit about Danny
Speaker 6: Mixon and the FBI.
Speaker 3: Well, just as far as the profiling is concerned, this
Speaker 3: is you know, this is pretty stand You know, there
Speaker 3: there is a well I don't know if it still exists,
Speaker 3: but I'll just say that certainly when I reported on it,
Speaker 3: that it was almost an innate prejudice that, uh, serial
Speaker 3: killers going to be African Americans, that be white guy, sure,
Speaker 3: that be white guys. And and I should mention that
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever interviewed Maurice Godwin, doctor
Speaker 3: Maurice Godway. No, Well, Maurice Godwin is a guy I met.
Speaker 3: Oh it's got to be fifteen years ago, maybe more.
Speaker 3: But he is one of the world. He is certainly
Speaker 3: the United States is he is certainly the biggest expert
Speaker 3: in the United States on geographic profiling. And we did
Speaker 3: a book together years and years ago. And the point is,
Speaker 3: Maurice learned. I didn't realize this, you know that this
Speaker 3: is like a He went to a one of a
Speaker 3: kind of school at the Liverpool, you know, University of Liverpool.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Paul McCartney might have been one of
Speaker 3: his teachers. Who knows but I got it in Okay.
Speaker 3: But anyway, here's the thing. Geographic profiling. What they're able
Speaker 3: to do and see, this is where we would have
Speaker 3: come into play, and especially in what we're talking about
Speaker 3: with Derek Toddley and Louisiana. You can pinpoint what the
Speaker 3: guy's area is that he's going to operate at. You
Speaker 3: can even pinpoint where he's going to operate next. This
Speaker 3: is how sophisticated it can be. But you've got to
Speaker 3: get access to that technology. And there's your problem, right
Speaker 3: there makes no difference where you are unless you've got
Speaker 3: access to that technology. You got yourself a problem. And
Speaker 3: it's not going to do you any good to call
Speaker 3: up the FBI and say, behavioral science, would you lucky
Speaker 3: know what the guy looks like? Oh he's a white guy,
Speaker 3: he's middle class, doesn't have munch of an education, blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. You know, sorry, folks, let's you know, let's
Speaker 3: come into the twenty first century.
Speaker 6: So anyway, yeah, it's pretty it can be generic. And
Speaker 6: obviously they've had many cases where their profile was absolutely
Speaker 6: wrong and it didn't they say, well, it's not a science,
Speaker 6: it's just a tool. But if it's a tool that
Speaker 6: doesn't lead you astray, then maybe it shouldn't be so
Speaker 6: highly regarded. And there have been some successes, but it
Speaker 6: seems like a lot more non success but it looks
Speaker 6: like it's again not maybe so reliant anyway on when
Speaker 6: they brought it in for the big cases, it didn't
Speaker 6: seem to do much. But you have this old fashioned
Speaker 6: police work where you have Danny Mixon. He looks at
Speaker 6: he looks at Lee's prison record, and he says, Okay,
Speaker 6: they got these low level felonies and misdemeanors, but when
Speaker 6: he was out, these attacks and murders occurred. So you
Speaker 6: can call that profiling of sorts, but just basic police
Speaker 6: work where he had a hunch and then he had
Speaker 6: it if he had a DNA symbol.
Speaker 3: So' isn't that interesting? What you just pointed out, What
Speaker 3: you really just pointed out, Dan, is that at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, with all of the technology and
Speaker 3: all this old fashion logic and shoe leather, yep, and really,
Speaker 3: you know, and and I know it sounds like a cliche,
Speaker 3: but it's true. You know, it really is true, and
Speaker 3: you know it's it's you know, it's I'll play you
Speaker 3: something you know, when you go into small towns, and
Speaker 3: I don't think it makes a difference whether it's in
Speaker 3: the South, the northeast, the west. You know, what I've
Speaker 3: learned is you go into a small town, okay, and
Speaker 3: everybody knows everybody. Uh, of course you're going to have corruption,
Speaker 3: you know, because it's everybody knows everybody. There's there's no oversight,
Speaker 3: so you know, you know, and so when you start
Speaker 3: dealing with what we're dealing with here, and corruption is
Speaker 3: maybe I don't know if it's too strong a term,
Speaker 3: but sure, you know, when you start dealing with a
Speaker 3: serial killer, okay. You know what I sometimes I personally
Speaker 3: wonder other people in law enforcement that really think Criminal
Speaker 3: Minds is a really is real? The TV show. I
Speaker 3: can't watch that show because it's all phony. I don't
Speaker 3: think fiction. Would you give me, you know, fictional lies something,
Speaker 3: don't make it up completely? You know. I wish I
Speaker 3: could be here today and I you know, I don't
Speaker 3: mean to keep railing, but I wish I could be
Speaker 3: here today and say that you know that these dudes
Speaker 3: you know, are catching serial killers right left, guess what
Speaker 3: folks ain't happening?
Speaker 6: You know, yeah, absolutely, because there's all start. There's also
Speaker 6: like like you tried, like you say, there's the if
Speaker 6: the serial killer or someone else. Ha said, the serial
Speaker 6: killer fits the profile till they don't fit the profile.
Speaker 6: So they fit the fit that description and stereotype, but
Speaker 6: then lots of people just don't. And our next guy
Speaker 6: that was talk about is exactly that, Dennis Raider and
Speaker 6: BTK and the surviver that you spoke to, Kevin Bright. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you travel to Livingston, Texas, small little desolate places, say
Speaker 6: to talk to five foot six, one hundred and forty pounds,
Speaker 6: the only survivor of BTK. Yes, tell us about that meeting.
Speaker 3: This is again it's I know, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: I don't. I won't be I won't be a writer here,
Speaker 3: I won't drama talks. It's not that it haunts me,
Speaker 3: but I'll always remember it. And what happened was I
Speaker 3: found him and he was Kevin was working as a cashier,
Speaker 3: you know, Walmart in East East Texas and I've never
Speaker 3: been to you know, I've been to Texas, but they
Speaker 3: never been to East Texas. You know. Needless to say,
Speaker 3: it's you know, in terms of the lower forty eight,
Speaker 3: it's the biggest and I remember walking into the you know,
Speaker 3: I made up to meet him where he was working
Speaker 3: as a kissher and I walked in and I spotted
Speaker 3: him immediately. I couldn't believe it. It was like, you know,
Speaker 3: there was just something about him, and you know, I went,
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that his sister just to sum it up,
Speaker 3: interrupt me at any point there. But his sister, to
Speaker 3: sum it up was he was in the same apartment
Speaker 3: as his sister when BTK ambushed him, and he eventually
Speaker 3: would kill his sister. And he survived it, shot and
Speaker 3: smothered and this and that. I say this and that,
Speaker 3: but I mean all this, Oh my god, all this.
Speaker 3: He was shot in the face and the jaw and
Speaker 3: the guy got out. This is in Wichita, Kansas, and
Speaker 3: I just thought of something. If this was one hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty years ago, the marshal on the case would
Speaker 3: have been whiter. But anyway, he gets out in the
Speaker 3: street and he gets some help. But the thing about
Speaker 3: this is that he told me, boy, did this bother me? Dan?
Speaker 3: He told me, and his wife told me that he
Speaker 3: didn't have much of a relationship with certain members of
Speaker 3: his family. The intimation was that he should have done
Speaker 3: more to stuff his sister from getting killed by the
Speaker 3: serial killer. That bothered me so much. I mean, I'm
Speaker 3: sitting there in this you know, in this you know
Speaker 3: this ranch else and uh well in Texas and he's
Speaker 3: telling me this, and boy, did that bother me. This
Speaker 3: guy had become a nomad. I mean he he was,
Speaker 3: he traveled around the Southwest. I think he was really
Speaker 3: looking for you know, why he's here, you know, the
Speaker 3: meaning of life. Call it whatever you want, you know,
Speaker 3: but it hits the boy. Did it hit me right
Speaker 3: between the eyes?
Speaker 6: You talk about the attack itself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that.
Speaker 6: He and his sister come back to the apartment where
Speaker 6: she lives, and he's inside. He's got a green Army
Speaker 6: type jack and he's pointing a twenty two Revolver at them.
Speaker 6: And as we know later, Raider had been stalking Kathy
Speaker 6: for over a week. And they asked him, what do
Speaker 6: you want so that these cowards like you write coward?
Speaker 6: And I agree, well, I want your car keys. I
Speaker 6: don't want money. I want but basically they're the rules
Speaker 6: is that they're not going to get hurt. He's just
Speaker 6: they need money. This guy needs money, which certainly didn't
Speaker 6: need money, so some.
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Speaker 3: Actually he didn't, Actually he didn't.
Speaker 6: No, no, So basically he doesn't have ever have a like,
Speaker 6: just to make sure everyone knows he never does have
Speaker 6: a chance to protect his sister any much anymore than
Speaker 6: he does. Yes, and they both fought, and they both
Speaker 6: fought this guy.
Speaker 3: So yes, I'm glad you pointed that out. Thank you.
Speaker 3: And the fact is he got shot multiple times and
Speaker 3: there was no way I mean, he you know, there
Speaker 3: was nothing for him to do but do exactly what
Speaker 3: he did was to break free when he could and
Speaker 3: try to get help. I mean, this, this raider is.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't like to give credit to these people.
Speaker 3: You know, you don't know if they could be listening, Dan,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, But uh, this guy was.
Speaker 3: This is It's funny as I was going through the
Speaker 3: material today, this is a particularly smart guy. Okay, we're talking.
Speaker 3: The guy's got a college degree and uh, you know, gee,
Speaker 3: he's not you know, he's not lower middle class, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, this guy is very well accomplished, I mean
Speaker 3: very well accomplished, and and he's got to be the
Speaker 3: only serial killer that's ever appeared in public service announcements
Speaker 3: for h you know, for a political body, you know,
Speaker 3: for this in this case, case for for you know
Speaker 3: where he was living in uh and censs. You know,
Speaker 3: he was in public service announcements. Oh my god. You know,
Speaker 3: think about that, folks, you know, I mean, that's that's
Speaker 3: just a weird one. But that's because he was so smart.
Speaker 3: And you know, all we can do is say, thank god.
Speaker 3: There aren't a lot of these kinds of individuals. I mean,
Speaker 3: Raider is really he's almost that of fiction, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. I mean, he's just you know, he's
Speaker 3: a really cunning Oh god. And you know, he's smart guy,
Speaker 3: very smart guy.
Speaker 6: You talk about the amount of time he was in
Speaker 6: the hospital to two hundred and eighteen days in hospital recuperating,
Speaker 6: but also at that same time, Raider still had the
Speaker 6: compulsion to communicate and taunt police. And you, as you
Speaker 6: say when you spoke to him, that Kevin Bright figured convinced,
Speaker 6: was convinced that BTK just might come and finish the
Speaker 6: job he started, didn't.
Speaker 3: He Kevin was very very even even you know, years later,
Speaker 3: he was worried. He figured that this guy was going
Speaker 3: to come and get him, and it made absolute sense.
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes I s you know, as we're talking, Dan,
Speaker 3: I sometimes want you know, I've never even thought about
Speaker 3: it until now. But considering I'm not advocating anything, but
Speaker 3: considering all the guns in the United States, dull, Okay,
Speaker 3: it's sort of curious that no one has ever gone
Speaker 3: after one of these guys, you know, in a you
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, you know, I mean, it's you know,
Speaker 3: you would you know, Oh my god. I mean, it's like,
Speaker 3: these are the kinds of individuals that they you know,
Speaker 3: that the states passed death penalty statues for, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. And I'm not a death penalty guy,
Speaker 3: so you know whatever.
Speaker 6: M Yeah, with Dennis Rader, obviously people know the story
Speaker 6: of this. But when we talk about, you know, the
Speaker 6: subject of this book about God and divine intervention and
Speaker 6: them attributing their scrape with evil to God itself. So
Speaker 6: we didn't talk about Chapman's ron and the family, and
Speaker 6: Michelle Chapman in formed Michelle Chapman her attributing her survival
Speaker 6: to God. Let's talk about before we talk about let's
Speaker 6: talk about Kevin Brighton what he has to say about
Speaker 6: what he believes was God's role in this.
Speaker 3: Oh he he, Kevin, you know there, I can see it,
Speaker 3: you know, And this is a good ten eleven years ago.
Speaker 3: He believes that God intervened and that you know, to
Speaker 3: help him, and uh he you know, he he. The
Speaker 3: problem is the problem is that even though he believes that,
Speaker 3: it doesn't give him peace, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: But I mean it's a very interesting one when you
Speaker 3: think about it, you know, the oh boy, but you
Speaker 3: know again, it's it's you know, he's you know, there's
Speaker 3: always a sense of As I was talking to him,
Speaker 3: you know, I'll just get I'll just say it. It
Speaker 3: was like he almost felt a sense of responsibility in
Speaker 3: some way, like he could have done something. That's he
Speaker 3: didn't say it, but I could feel it, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. And I felt very badly for that
Speaker 3: because of that for him. I mean, I couldn't because
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about is my God, look at what this
Speaker 3: guy survived? You know. And and I'll tell you something else.
Speaker 3: It never occurred to me when I, you know, came
Speaker 3: up with the idea to do this or you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not a religious guy. Yes, I believe
Speaker 3: in God. Okay, But it never occurred to me that
Speaker 3: people didn't like that, or that there might be some
Speaker 3: you know, negativity with that. I mean, it was very
Speaker 3: interesting and you know, but there was certainly some negativity
Speaker 3: that I found from readers regarding that. It's interesting how
Speaker 3: people look at these things, you know, it's it's you know,
Speaker 3: it really is interesting how people look at these things.
Speaker 3: And of course these things change with time. Uh. You know,
Speaker 3: it's funny, Dan. You know, as I'm reading some of
Speaker 3: the stuff I'm going now, I understand why they while
Speaker 3: the editors always say, don't put the stuff in that
Speaker 3: could date that's the story, you know, just put the
Speaker 3: differences to TV shows, you know, especially me TV shows
Speaker 3: by the way. I mean, you know, somebody is going
Speaker 3: to hit me on the head if I mentioned the
Speaker 3: flash one more time, you know, in a book, the
Speaker 3: comic book character. Okay, I've had it almost flashes.
Speaker 6: Let's get back to Michelle Whitehead now, because it's very
Speaker 6: interesting what you ask her at the end of the
Speaker 6: interview with her brush with Serial Killer that you say,
Speaker 6: why didn't you die that night? And you said, and
Speaker 6: she said, I believe God said it wasn't time yet.
Speaker 6: I think he had something else from me in mind.
Speaker 6: And then you asked the question, did you ever wonder
Speaker 6: why you fought back? Because she said she didn't know
Speaker 6: what you meant by that, And why did you ask
Speaker 6: that question? What was her response?
Speaker 3: Gee? And I'm gonna have to look at the book.
Speaker 6: Well you did say, she said you asked why she
Speaker 6: fought back, and you said a lot of people don't
Speaker 6: fight back.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was just going to say that a lot
Speaker 3: of people. Oh boy, See, a lot of people don't
Speaker 3: fight back in these kinds of situations. Well, I shouldn't
Speaker 3: say these because obviously this is pretty rare, Okay, when
Speaker 3: people are pushed against the wall, a lot of you know,
Speaker 3: in a life or death situation, there are a lot
Speaker 3: of people that just accept it. See that's what I'm
Speaker 3: getting at. They accept death. Not these people.
Speaker 6: Well, at the same time, you see something. I know
Speaker 6: what you're saying. But at the same time, when you
Speaker 6: asked that question, I think why she was confused. It's
Speaker 6: because some victims decide, or potential victims or people that
Speaker 6: want to be victims decide compliance is a good ploy.
Speaker 6: And then you see that the people have escape. The
Speaker 6: spial killers clutches by making the right decisions right at
Speaker 6: that time.
Speaker 3: Right, you're right, No, absolutely right, I forgot Yes, you're right.
Speaker 3: I didn't watch Long Order SVU today.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, But that doesn't take away from Michelle's spirit too.
Speaker 6: The thing is that she fought back and incredibly, you know,
Speaker 6: we talk about Kevin Bright, we talk about Kevin Bright.
Speaker 6: I can see why some people may have criticized him
Speaker 6: because he ran out of the home and went for help.
Speaker 6: But just after he'd been shot how many times, three
Speaker 6: or four times? He's anybody would really know what you'r.
Speaker 6: It's amazing that he even got up the first time,
Speaker 6: never mind the second.
Speaker 4: I can't.
Speaker 3: I can't believe it when you read it and you
Speaker 3: read he gets shut over hearing, he got shut over hearing,
Speaker 3: he gets shot the jaw, and he gets like he
Speaker 3: showed me. He showed me, oh man, Dan, he showed
Speaker 3: me the dent in his forehead. I can't. I'm sorry, folks,
Speaker 3: I'm just describing it. I mean, this was like really upsetting,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, What's it wasn't like I was
Speaker 3: watching a movie. It was you know, but you know, again,
Speaker 3: it's it's their their perspective. But they all seem to
Speaker 3: have something in common hold these survivors, which is they
Speaker 3: really were looking, every one of them for their place
Speaker 3: in the world afterwards. Whether they find it or not,
Speaker 3: that's another story. But they didn't throw you know, these
Speaker 3: individuals were talking about didn't throw it away.
Speaker 6: It's remarkable to you talk about Kevin studying to be
Speaker 6: a pastor and you ask him why and God protected
Speaker 6: him and he says, that's why I'm alive, That's why
Speaker 6: I didn't die. There's some purpose. And he says, really profound,
Speaker 6: he says, God sends people in our path. And he
Speaker 6: said another thing that was really amazing but disturbing was
Speaker 6: Kevin's family. They don't talk about Kathy's murder ever, they
Speaker 6: don't even bring up her name thirty one years and
Speaker 6: still but getting back to Kevin, he says God's hand
Speaker 6: was in everything and protecting him that day. And you say, well,
Speaker 6: how did you get the power to rise up off
Speaker 6: the floor. Again, the answer is God's intervention.
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, yeah, I mean it's an incredible uh, you know,
Speaker 3: and and I have to give At the time the
Speaker 3: book was written, I had briefly moved over to Harper Collins.
Speaker 3: And this was the first book that I did for
Speaker 3: them at A three. And what happened was and you'll know,
Speaker 3: the book was widowed as you pull it in the business,
Speaker 3: the book, the the I had a wonderful editor name
Speaker 3: was Aaron Brown, but she left and somebody else took over,
Speaker 3: and then somebody else took over. And when those things happen,
Speaker 3: it's certainly a sex what happens with a book, you know,
Speaker 3: and you know, but you know, these are the things
Speaker 3: that you sort of remember. And of course the other
Speaker 3: thing is the fact that when that book came out,
Speaker 3: it came out just the beginning of the recession.
Speaker 4: Yeah, good timing, Oh man, I had good timing, man,
Speaker 4: but you know, you know, of course I had good
Speaker 4: timing on a mets Fand what do I know?
Speaker 6: You know, well, it's great that these books, these books though,
Speaker 6: are still around today thanks to again some advances in technology.
Speaker 6: We because books used to just go missing after a
Speaker 6: few years or a short period of time. We're just
Speaker 6: not available anymore. So it's really it's one good sign
Speaker 6: for the publishing industry anyway, that books that deserve to
Speaker 6: be read.
Speaker 3: You know, that's an excellent, excellent excellent point, you know,
Speaker 3: because a lot of people don't they talk negatively about ebooks,
Speaker 3: you know, and it's very interesting because and you know,
Speaker 3: we you know, I think that at this point. I
Speaker 3: don't know if you've ever got into a conversation about
Speaker 3: this on air, Dan, but I think ebooks have got
Speaker 3: to be up to thirty five. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I think they are. Yeah, I think they are, and
Speaker 6: I think there's I think it's a good reason. I mean,
Speaker 6: a lot of the publishers were offering the e book
Speaker 6: at a substantially reduced rate, so they were attractive in
Speaker 6: that way. Now they've sort of adjusted it because it's
Speaker 6: just the same as you think. It was just the
Speaker 6: same as a book, except and it's just not collected
Speaker 6: on a shelf and a bookshelf. So I think it's
Speaker 6: good for the I think it's good because of the
Speaker 6: print on demand. I think that's an amazing feature that
Speaker 6: people don't have to pay ten thousand books and ship
Speaker 6: them all over the world.
Speaker 3: So really, oh, we've got to talk about that here.
Speaker 6: Okay, let's get back to Let's get back to another
Speaker 6: incredible case and another incredible survivor. Lisa McVeigh, of course,
Speaker 6: a survivor of serial killers Bobby Joe Long, and we
Speaker 6: talk about we talk about Bobby Joe Long, but we
Speaker 6: need to talk about Lisa McVeigh because this is very important.
Speaker 6: This is a savage killer. This is an incredible savage
Speaker 6: murder spree. This guy undertook. Tell us about your meeting
Speaker 6: with Lisa McVeigh, all the circumstances that you came to
Speaker 6: be able to meet with her.
Speaker 3: Well, what happened here was I didn't know anything about
Speaker 3: this Bobby Joe Long character, but somebody tipped me off
Speaker 3: at the Hillsborough County Sheriff's office in Florida write down
Speaker 3: a lot of books, including Lobster Boy, and and so
Speaker 3: I just, you know, looked into it, and oh boy,
Speaker 3: I wound up going and I was talking to Lisa McVeagh,
Speaker 3: who is a Jeputy sheriff Okay in Hillsborough County, and
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in this courtroom where the Lobster Boy case
Speaker 3: it happened. All right, I couldn't get over it. Dan.
Speaker 3: It's like I was in the courtroom and she starts
Speaker 3: telling me the story about what happened to her when
Speaker 3: she was a teenager seventeen years old seventeen years old
Speaker 3: and was abducted by this dead guy, and how she survived,
Speaker 3: and oh man, it was just quite something. And the
Speaker 3: and what was so interesting about that was that later
Speaker 3: on after she survives and she, oh man, what she did?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess I can talk a little
Speaker 3: bit about this. I mean, she he inducts her. She's
Speaker 3: driving home from a bus she was working with Duncan Donuts,
Speaker 3: seventeen years old. She's driving, she's on a bicycle, she's
Speaker 3: going home. He abducts her, puts her in a car,
Speaker 3: and but she pays attention. Actually that's sort of that's
Speaker 3: another common element. All of these people are paying attention.
Speaker 3: So she knows the kind of car it is, she
Speaker 3: knows what the uh you know, the seats and the
Speaker 3: carpeting and so forth and so on. Anyway, he winds
Speaker 3: up taking a prisoner for a couple of days in
Speaker 3: a motel in the Campa area, and he rapes her repeatedly,
Speaker 3: and she is able to stay alive because she basically
Speaker 3: is able to play up to him in certain ways.
Speaker 3: And then he winds up this isn't this is incredible.
Speaker 3: I mean it's incredible. He lets her go. He drives
Speaker 3: him back to I mean, he can't make this stuff up,
Speaker 3: you know. He lets her go, excuse me, you know,
Speaker 3: but that's what happens. And of course, you know, like
Speaker 3: again it's you know, she's traumatized like all the victims are,
Speaker 3: but what she decides to do with their life is
Speaker 3: completely different. She goes into law enforcement.
Speaker 6: Go figure, Yeah, let's use this as an opportunity, Fred,
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Speaker 6: hire Now, Fred, we were talking about Lisa McVeigh and
Speaker 6: this incredible transformation from the attack. But what we didn't
Speaker 6: mention is the incredible research that you did here to
Speaker 6: talk about what would have turned into just a horrible
Speaker 6: life and suicide before she even met this incredible and
Speaker 6: vicious serial killer. Because you talk about that she was
Speaker 6: working at the don't joint and she had been abused,
Speaker 6: and then when she went to her grandmother's house, then
Speaker 6: the grandmother's boyfriend abused her, and then at seventeen years old,
Speaker 6: he says, I think it's time to have a baby
Speaker 6: with you. He wanted to get her pregnant. So this
Speaker 6: woman was tired of being abused and she was contemplating
Speaker 6: suicide and then we take you take us to the
Speaker 6: story where she's riding her bike home. She used to
Speaker 6: stay at work longer because she didn't want to go home,
Speaker 6: and then she runs into this man who clothes lines
Speaker 6: her and jumps her off a bicycle and then takes
Speaker 6: her for days and days of rape. Yes, and this
Speaker 6: woman survives by her instincts and her will to live,
Speaker 6: and he lets her go, believing somehow, in some warped
Speaker 6: way that he says, boyfriend's a lucky man, and you're
Speaker 6: going to go to the police, but I hope you don't.
Speaker 6: But she did not do what he asked her to do,
Speaker 6: and she noticed every single solitary incrimination detail, even left
Speaker 6: her bloody tampon under the car seat so in case
Speaker 6: she were killed, at least people would know. Incredible, you know,
Speaker 6: she has all these skills of being a detective. That
Speaker 6: was pretty evident right there.
Speaker 3: Well, he isn't an interesting you know what you just man?
Speaker 3: You picked up something right there. You know I should
Speaker 3: have seen that and said it. I didn't. You know,
Speaker 3: if I ever revised it, I'll say it to give
Speaker 3: you the credit. But you know it's interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 3: I mean? And I you know, I kind of Can
Speaker 3: I just tell you something. When the book came out,
Speaker 3: I was h I was interviewed by somebody what was
Speaker 3: her name, She deigned to think she was on the
Speaker 3: view for a while and she got a shout on
Speaker 3: on Core TV and whatever they were calling it those days. Anyway,
Speaker 3: Lisa was there for the show they flew her in from.
Speaker 3: It was actually pretty you know, it was interesting they
Speaker 3: I don't know how they made a decision about who
Speaker 3: to fly in or whatever, but she was there and
Speaker 3: called an arrow who was a victim of the Son
Speaker 3: of Sam. He was there and but that was it,
Speaker 3: you know, and but you know, but it was again,
Speaker 3: it was interesting to get these people in one place
Speaker 3: to you know, talk about whether the Kurt you know,
Speaker 3: in their lives, you know.
Speaker 6: An go ahead?
Speaker 3: Sorry, no, nothing, No, what do I what do I
Speaker 3: know on the net? Stand, I don't know anything. Come on,
Speaker 3: you talk about too.
Speaker 6: The dialogue she had with Bobby Joe too. She asked
Speaker 6: him questions, keep them talking. She thought, you know, why
Speaker 6: are you doing this to me? She had the ability to,
Speaker 6: I guess, to suss him out that he wasn't going
Speaker 6: to respond negatively that asked that question. But he asked
Speaker 6: her questions like that, and what was his response to
Speaker 6: some of those questions. What did he sort of demonstrate
Speaker 6: in his answers that was kind of surprising.
Speaker 3: Well, I think he demonstrated a certain amount of sympathy. Yeah, yeah, sympathy.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to use the word empathy, but sympathy.
Speaker 3: I mean, see, this is what's interesting. She was able
Speaker 3: to she is we're talking about it. It makes sense she
Speaker 3: was able to get into you know, as a person.
Speaker 3: My god, who gets into a serial killer as a person.
Speaker 3: You know, it's you know when you say, oh, you know,
Speaker 3: cooperate with the bad guys so you survive. That's one thing.
Speaker 3: But we're talking about something where she's asking questions. It's
Speaker 3: like you said, I mean, this is a fortuita circumstance
Speaker 3: where she was a born detective. You know, she just
Speaker 3: had a talent. That's it. You know, she had a talent,
Speaker 3: and that, of course, will you know, eventually lead to
Speaker 3: the guy getting caught and so forth. You know, it's funny,
Speaker 3: actually I was thinking about it, like, gee, he's on
Speaker 3: death row. Nothing's happening with him, you know. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like these days, it's a whole other story you
Speaker 3: know that, you know, especially in Florida, you know, the
Speaker 3: deafer a situation they have to and we do their
Speaker 3: their their statute for various reasons that would take too
Speaker 3: long to explain. But the bottom line is that right
Speaker 3: now nothing's happening. So Bobby jill Long has got himself,
Speaker 3: you know, you know, a while to go.
Speaker 6: You write this incredible you include this incredible stuff where
Speaker 6: she's asking him why he did this. He said, well,
Speaker 6: I had a bad relationship, a girl broke off with me,
Speaker 6: and I'm getting back at women in general. Don't take
Speaker 6: this personally, he says, So just some incredible dialogue. Then
Speaker 6: the TV program they have a news bullet bulletin. Again
Speaker 6: this is who needs criminal minds. There's a news bulletin
Speaker 6: interrupts the show and he says, seventeen year old girl missing,
Speaker 6: fear dead may be a victim of and he turns
Speaker 6: off the TV. And then she cries. He says, well,
Speaker 6: don't cry, I'm not going to hurt you. Gives her
Speaker 6: a sandwich and a drink, like, you know, like just
Speaker 6: had him, you know, an argument to lovers, you know,
Speaker 6: but you know, he says, what do you think I
Speaker 6: should do with you, and she says, I'll be your girlfriend.
Speaker 6: I won't tell anyone what happened to me. I will
Speaker 6: take care of you, you know. And he says, well,
Speaker 6: I can't take the chance. He says, you can take
Speaker 6: me home. I have a sick father at home and
Speaker 6: he can't. He's not ready to live without me. I
Speaker 6: have to take care of him all day long. I
Speaker 6: even have to quit school to take care of him.
Speaker 6: And now you're taking away from my father. And that
Speaker 6: was not true. That was not true.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 6: So this woman has the ability, the incredible what's the word.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's not tenacity, what's the word, the wherewithal
Speaker 6: to realize and then under that incredible stress and trauma,
Speaker 6: and given what he had done so many times before,
Speaker 6: this is a remarkable performance on her part.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's funny. As we're talking about it,
Speaker 3: I remember me, you know, talking to her, and that
Speaker 3: comes across. You know, there's a she she has a presence,
Speaker 3: a presence, you know, a real presence, and you know
Speaker 3: she I don't know what else to say except she's
Speaker 3: got a real presence. But you know, look, the fact
Speaker 3: of the matter is the one thing. You know, people
Speaker 3: aren't talking to me about her. You know how many hours, days,
Speaker 3: whatever they've spent in therapy, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I mean they you know, there's a lot of therapy
Speaker 3: that's got there goes into this stuff too, and you
Speaker 3: know they don't talk about that obviously.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you talk too. When we talked about Michelle
Speaker 6: Whitehead and her father, Ron Chapman was there, this big
Speaker 6: hulk of a right with a veteran But tell us
Speaker 6: what his tell him, tell us tell our audience about him,
Speaker 6: because this is again what this did to him. This
Speaker 6: is visible when you're seeing later.
Speaker 3: I'll be you know, this is why you're so good,
Speaker 3: because you can hit, yield, hit something personal. The thing
Speaker 3: is having a daughter. And here's this man talking to
Speaker 3: me about how his daughter was attacked by a serial
Speaker 3: killer and how it affected him. I was I was
Speaker 3: like devastated, you know, and not to mention the fact
Speaker 3: that this guy was a Vietnam vet, and but in
Speaker 3: as he talked about how his daughter had been abused,
Speaker 3: assaulted by Derek Todd Lee, he was shrinking. You know
Speaker 3: what I mean, you know, you know, I talk a
Speaker 3: little bit about the fact that he was drinking, you know, booze.
Speaker 3: But that you know, big deal, you know. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: I could feel, you know, the powerlessness because he couldn't
Speaker 3: do anything to help his daughter. You know. This was
Speaker 3: of course after the fact. It's like every parent's worst nightmare.
Speaker 3: You know. You can only protect the child up to
Speaker 3: a certain point and then boom, something like this happens,
Speaker 3: you know, and but the good news she survived. That's
Speaker 3: the good news, you know, in these days, using the
Speaker 3: words survive counsel lot, you know what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it good. No, no, glhead, yeah, I don't
Speaker 3: have anything to say, no, you know, I just no, no, no, no, I'm.
Speaker 4: Just his.
Speaker 3: Man, his and he was oh my god, was he frustrated.
Speaker 3: Oh god, he was so frustrated with the cops. Oh.
Speaker 3: He didn't have anything nice to say about them. I mean,
Speaker 3: I mean, this was you know, and I really felt
Speaker 3: for the guy, you know. You know, in the United States.
Speaker 3: It's probably the same in Canada, but the United States.
Speaker 3: If a local sheriff, for example, doesn't do his job
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, the United States attorney has oversight. The Feds.
Speaker 3: You know, the Feds have oversight. But two things first,
Speaker 3: that's not so easy to get done under ordinary circumstances.
Speaker 3: Number one and number two. Right now, we're lucky. We
Speaker 3: still have a justice department. Moving right along, folks.
Speaker 6: Sure one thing we didn't mention too, This is Lisa McVeigh.
Speaker 6: And know I mentioned that the grandfather of the grandmother's
Speaker 6: boyfriend had abused her, and before the act she had
Speaker 6: said never again. Well, when she got through all of
Speaker 6: this ordeal and came home, the grandfather the boyfriend tried
Speaker 6: the raper as he said, if you touch me, I
Speaker 6: will kill you. I will take a gun to your
Speaker 6: head and kill you. No one who's ever gonna touch
Speaker 6: me again?
Speaker 3: And he isn't that.
Speaker 6: Complied with that, didn't he?
Speaker 3: Yeah? But isn't that interesting?
Speaker 6: Turned into a very strong person. It's amazing, It's amazing. This,
Speaker 6: this recovery is beyond recovery.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if not interesting, what you picked up in something
Speaker 3: really interesting there there, Dan, I mean yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: because remember I'm just reporting, but you really picked that's
Speaker 3: pretty you know. You know one thing, so here we
Speaker 3: have a situation where where she's repeatedly raped by this
Speaker 3: stepfather whatever whatever he is, and and then you know,
Speaker 3: she goes out the same thing happens with a serial killer,
Speaker 3: and that empowers her to turn around and say to
Speaker 3: the stepfather, you do this again, you're gonna wind up,
Speaker 3: you know, sleeping with the fishes, with local broxy. So
Speaker 3: that's pretty interesting, isn't it.
Speaker 6: It's an amazing you know, the life that some people
Speaker 6: have had to endure, and this, certainly this woman already
Speaker 6: had a pretty terrible life up to that point. Once
Speaker 6: economy being suicide at a young age. Let's talk about
Speaker 6: Now let's talk about another incredible survivor and again another
Speaker 6: amazing killer, Ted Bundy. But I had not read about
Speaker 6: this woman at all, well, none of these survivors, but
Speaker 6: this one is another. We have to get to this
Speaker 6: story of Nita and Neeri at the Kyomega Sority house.
Speaker 6: A while after Ted Bundy has escaped a couple of times,
Speaker 6: it makes his way down to Florida and this Kyomega
Speaker 6: sorority house where he's killed two and three others. He's
Speaker 6: club senseless, as you say, tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about Nita NEARI and her brush with death near Brush.
Speaker 3: Well, this is the one that got had all. Let
Speaker 3: me take a breath out of every case that I've
Speaker 3: written about reported on this is the only time that
Speaker 3: I really had. It wasn't so much nightmare as I
Speaker 3: could really feel bad guy. What happened with Nita was
Speaker 3: this in the late seventies. She is a college student
Speaker 3: at the University of Florida, Gainesville, so of Central Florida.
Speaker 3: Goes out in something call it a cag party, and
Speaker 3: she said that she only had a couple of beers.
Speaker 3: She came back to the Serrari house and she comes
Speaker 3: into like a living room and oh boy, and at
Speaker 3: the far into the living room is pretty well lit.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of lights on, and she starts to
Speaker 3: trn a light off because it's night and so forth.
Speaker 3: At the far into the living room, there's a stairway
Speaker 3: leading upstairs where the girls sleep, and suddenly a dude
Speaker 3: comes down holding a club. She sees him, but because
Speaker 3: of her position, who can't see her. And this is
Speaker 3: where it really gets interested. Nita maintained that she did
Speaker 3: not advance further into that room because she could feel
Speaker 3: her grandfather's hand on her shoulder stopping her, and she
Speaker 3: didn't advance further into the room. Bundy left killed two
Speaker 3: more people after that, and eventually when they captured him.
Speaker 3: She is the one who I dat him and eventually
Speaker 3: put him in the electric chair. I have to show
Speaker 3: you then go, you're gonna say.
Speaker 6: You you say that she saw him, and just before
Speaker 6: that she said, you say one more second, she said
Speaker 6: one more second, and she would have been clearly visible
Speaker 6: to him. Yeah, well, what did she see in his hand?
Speaker 3: Club? It was some sort of club, but she didn't
Speaker 3: know what it was, you know, I I ll, man,
Speaker 3: I don't know what a club looks like, you know,
Speaker 3: but you know, he had some sort of club and
Speaker 3: it was a bloody club that he used to kill
Speaker 3: the women upstairs. That's what she saw. And she went
Speaker 3: through She she she you know, was uh interviewed, you know,
Speaker 3: by the prosecutor. And so she's she eventually testified against
Speaker 3: Bundy a trial, you know, and I, you know, I
Speaker 3: never used this word, but I'll just say it. Hey,
Speaker 3: we're on podcast. Nita Neary put ted Bundy's ass in
Speaker 3: the chair. Yeah, seriously, this is a brave, brave woman, because,
Speaker 3: oh boy, she has to go into a courtroom in
Speaker 3: Florida and he's representing himself. He questions her, Oh my god,
Speaker 3: you know, it's unbelievable, you.
Speaker 6: Write as well, though, but sorry you right as well though,
Speaker 6: that the reporters published her address in the newspapers and
Speaker 6: their names everywhere.
Speaker 3: She told me that, Nita told me. When I entered
Speaker 3: the NATO. We were in Kentucky and Nita told me
Speaker 3: that at that time she lived in Indiana. That's where
Speaker 3: she lived full time and with appearance, and the newspapers
Speaker 3: published for some reason, I don't know why, I you
Speaker 3: know that they published her address and she was where
Speaker 3: use of course Ted was going to come and finish
Speaker 3: the job.
Speaker 6: Sure, you say too. Interesting is that the women that
Speaker 6: were that she knew from the sorority you couldn't go
Speaker 6: to the memorials? Well, why wouldn't she allowed to attend
Speaker 6: the memorials?
Speaker 3: Oh? There are a couple of reasons, you know. First off, first,
Speaker 3: theformance is always safety. Second is the they always try
Speaker 3: to keep their witnesses separate, you know, from getting involved
Speaker 3: in anything. That's sort of the typical way of doing things,
Speaker 3: at least down in Florida, and she I think needed felt. Also, look,
Speaker 3: here is a situation where somebody is barely an adult,
Speaker 3: as you know. Now, certainly Bundy was identified at that
Speaker 3: point as a serial killer. It wouldn't be much until
Speaker 3: later that we would look at him in a classic
Speaker 3: way for lack of a better term. Okay, so she
Speaker 3: is in you know, big Doodoo up to her, you
Speaker 3: know what, because now she's going to testify against this
Speaker 3: guy and they published, you know, he doesn't even make
Speaker 3: any difference whether they published. You know, once they publish
Speaker 3: what town you're in, duh, anybody can find you, you know.
Speaker 3: So you know, but they got you know, they got
Speaker 3: him fairly, I will say, fairly quickly, but within a
Speaker 3: couple of months of the murders and game Still you.
Speaker 6: Also say that what she did was she was told
Speaker 6: or she learned that if a potential witness, and she
Speaker 6: realized the importance of her being a star witness, that
Speaker 6: that what would happen is if you went to counseling,
Speaker 6: they might use that against you. I don't understand that.
Speaker 6: But she said, okay, I'm not going to get any counseling,
Speaker 6: and then went and did this very very you know,
Speaker 6: difficult cross examination. She says they portrayed her all kinds
Speaker 6: of negative ways at trial, didn't they.
Speaker 3: Yes, and oh man, oh man, oh man, I mean
Speaker 3: and Remember, folks, even though Bundy's representing himself, he's got
Speaker 3: somebody working, you know, a professional at Journey, right. And
Speaker 3: you know they tried to, you know, say that she
Speaker 3: was drunk that night. You know, they tried to insinuate
Speaker 3: things regarding her sex sexually, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3: You know, the idea, of course is to break her,
Speaker 3: like you know her, make her not be a plausible
Speaker 3: witness for the prosecution, because she's the one who's saying
Speaker 3: this is the guy. You know, this is the guy.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you don't have you know, actually,
Speaker 3: as we're talking about it, let's face it, folks, there
Speaker 3: aren't too many cases where you know, you're going to
Speaker 3: put somebody in the you know, into the death chamber
Speaker 3: and a basis of a an identification. Usually there's a
Speaker 3: lot more think about it, because an identification can always
Speaker 3: be broken one way or the other, especially on cross examination.
Speaker 3: And here she is being cross examined by the killer.
Speaker 3: But by the way, I have to mention this, I
Speaker 3: have to mention this. You know, I remember when I
Speaker 3: was writing the book and today when I was looking
Speaker 3: it over, do you know that they do have working
Speaker 3: Oh boy, they got a new movie coming out about
Speaker 3: I think it's a movie about Bundy.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: And but back in the day, you know, back in
Speaker 3: the I want to say it was the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 3: there was a mini series where Mark Harmon of all people,
Speaker 3: played him and he was brilliant, right just mentioning it, folks,
Speaker 3: you know, if you want to get a hold of it,
Speaker 3: I think he was really you know, won long before
Speaker 3: he did. N Cis.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was called a Deliberate Stranger. It's I've seen it.
Speaker 6: It's quite good.
Speaker 3: Actually, man, you got a good memory. No, that's cool.
Speaker 6: You talk about Nita too that at some point she
Speaker 6: was discouraged, but then she got a letter from Lisa
Speaker 6: Levy's mother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it encouraged her. Yeah, she got a letter from
Speaker 3: one of the victims' mothers, and it encouraged her to
Speaker 3: just keep going. I mean, it's it's oh man, I mean, folks,
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm shaking
Speaker 3: my head because I can't imagine what it would be
Speaker 3: like she walk into a courtroom. I have to get
Speaker 3: understand and face a killer, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: Even though you know it's not so much it's not
Speaker 3: you know, you're not what Look, he's not going to
Speaker 3: do anything. But you see what I'm saying. You know,
Speaker 3: it's just the vibes.
Speaker 6: You talk about her love of art and her talent
Speaker 6: as an artist and its relation to this case as well.
Speaker 6: Tell us what is very interesting what she had to
Speaker 6: say about that and into effect on this case.
Speaker 3: She felt, oh, well, she is an artist and or
Speaker 3: Or was an artist, and it was something that she
Speaker 3: really wanted to do, and of course it's one of
Speaker 3: those things that you know, derailed her, but at the
Speaker 3: same time it derailed her, It was derailed for a
Speaker 3: period of time, but then eventually she got back into
Speaker 3: it teaching it. And so essentially what this did was
Speaker 3: it saved her emotionally, I would say personally, I would say,
Speaker 3: that's just my you know, my analysis of it. The
Speaker 3: fact that she was into it saved or emotional What
Speaker 3: do you get that dance?
Speaker 6: Well, basically what she did she said that her artistic ability,
Speaker 6: her artistic ability helped in the sketch. That was quite
Speaker 6: accurate when you look back at it, and you know,
Speaker 6: help helped in the case. And she felt that that
Speaker 6: was just faithful that she had an interest in art
Speaker 6: because she kept not being as satisfied with it and said, no, no,
Speaker 6: the nose, the nose isn't quite right. And then after
Speaker 6: she saw it, she said, yeah, I think that's very good.
Speaker 6: I think that's a really good so so that she
Speaker 6: felt that everything was connected.
Speaker 3: Now, I'm glad you reminded me. Yes, absolutely, and she
Speaker 3: that did help her in turns well, actually, as we
Speaker 3: talked about it and more than helped her. It nailed it.
Speaker 3: You know, it nailed the guy. You know, it nailed
Speaker 3: the guy. You know, otherwise we're not having you know,
Speaker 3: you know, this conversation. I mean, you know, oh man, Yeah,
Speaker 3: she nailed the guy.
Speaker 6: She also said that, you know, was very Again, I've
Speaker 6: never read anything like this. She said she didn't regret
Speaker 6: even being involved. Yet, she said none of it. She's
Speaker 6: never regretted any of it. And you could see that
Speaker 6: with what she does now. She volunteers for an organization
Speaker 6: called Kids in Court. So tell us she's what she's
Speaker 6: doing with this organization.
Speaker 3: Well, she advocates the kids who wind up in court.
Speaker 3: But the bottom line is that this is a woman
Speaker 3: who is trying to pay it forward. That is that
Speaker 3: since she was able to survive. He wants to help
Speaker 3: other people survive, and she feels a certain responsibility to
Speaker 3: do that. That's pretty rare.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, yeah, and she did. She said she had a divorce,
Speaker 6: she found a counselor, she learned to meditate, and she
Speaker 6: said she had to endure Mark Harmon's performance and deliberate
Speaker 6: Stranger too as well. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine
Speaker 6: these people can't be too happy with any kind of
Speaker 6: movie portrayal of anything. I can't imagine anyway.
Speaker 3: Well, you know what happened when I was writing the book,
Speaker 3: I found out that an old friend of mine from
Speaker 3: film school, my friend Greg Rose, I changed his name
Speaker 3: in the book, but he'd been friends with one of
Speaker 3: Bundy's victims. And it was somebody you know who used
Speaker 3: to do He was a DJ and radio in Seattle,
Speaker 3: and she was someplace else south with him and she
Speaker 3: would deliver snow reports. I think it was you tak whatever.
Speaker 3: But the point is, you know, I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 3: You know, somebody I knew for many many years had
Speaker 3: known one of Bunde's vis mm hm, you know, and.
Speaker 6: Whatever you talk about, there's again there's seven victims, survivors.
Speaker 6: I should say the victims, survivors, survivors, all of these
Speaker 6: incredible crimes. One of the more interesting cases, and not
Speaker 6: so much be ported because obviously I've done this for
Speaker 6: eight years and haven't seen a new book about this anyway.
Speaker 6: But Richard Speck Chicago, eight women in one day, Corason
Speaker 6: and you, I will mispronounced this, but Anu Erro, Yeah,
Speaker 6: a Pino nurse came over from the Philippines, as many
Speaker 6: Philippines do. As you write, there's they export incredible amount
Speaker 6: of peopable nurses, especially the US. But tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit about this woman, Corazon Rao and her survival.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Well, what basically happens here is this guy
Speaker 3: spec Richard Speck, Well, you can't make up these names.
Speaker 3: He winds up getting into a suite in Chicago where
Speaker 3: there are these nurses from uh, from the Philippines, and
Speaker 3: of course what he winds up doing is taking control
Speaker 3: of them, abusing them and killing it except for corazont
Speaker 3: and she's able to survive by hiding. And it was
Speaker 3: a very every very big case here in the United
Speaker 3: States in the mid sixties. And this happened. I remember
Speaker 3: it even when because I was a child. But she
Speaker 3: is able to survive by basically hide.
Speaker 6: The pardon me. The incredible thing is that there is
Speaker 6: two people in this room. This Richard Speck knocks on
Speaker 6: her door and he pushes his way and he's got
Speaker 6: a brown pistol and alcohol in his breath.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 6: Again, explain the again, just the will to live that
Speaker 6: this Corenzo exhibits a corson exhibits part of me.
Speaker 3: Well again, what happens here is that while her friends,
Speaker 3: you see, as we talk about this, the will to live,
Speaker 3: the one thing that the one yeah, the one thing
Speaker 3: that's in my head about all of all of these
Speaker 3: zippoms is this. I don't I can't explain it, but
Speaker 3: I'll just say it. They don't panic. That thinking doesn't
Speaker 3: go out the window.
Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: They they think logically. They think about how am I
Speaker 3: going to survive? And you know, and that's a pretty
Speaker 3: interesting point in that, you know, I don't you know,
Speaker 3: we we as a species have something in us that
Speaker 3: makes us want to survive. But why is it that
Speaker 3: certain individuals something else kicks in, like in Corazona Quino's case.
Speaker 3: You know, So I think the answer to that one
Speaker 3: is that is that we don't know. You know, we
Speaker 3: don't know if it's genetic, it's it's it's it's in
Speaker 3: nature and nurture, whatever be. But she just determines that
Speaker 3: she's not going to become a victim. And when she does,
Speaker 3: and when she does survive, she's able to summon else
Speaker 3: And that's pretty damn unique. And it's funny as we're
Speaker 3: talking about this, because I remembered something. She wasn't so
Speaker 3: easy to find. Dan that I found her, I did
Speaker 3: something I've never done. I let her go. I decided
Speaker 3: I didn't want to bother. I just said I can't.
Speaker 3: I can't good conscience after you know, when I read
Speaker 3: all the details of what this woman went through. You know,
Speaker 3: some people, you know, others are different. But in this case,
Speaker 3: I just couldn't do it. I guess. You know.
Speaker 6: You write about this incredible story, amazing story. One by one.
Speaker 6: Richard Speck gathers all these eight women into one room,
Speaker 6: and then one by one they take them. He takes
Speaker 6: one by one out of the room. He assures them
Speaker 6: you're not going to get hurt. He ties them up
Speaker 6: fulls out a knife. But she can hear the muffled
Speaker 6: sounds in the other room, and one by one they're
Speaker 6: being taken out of the room. So she has the forethought,
Speaker 6: the wherewithal to say, I'm going to roll under this
Speaker 6: bed and roll all the way to the wall and
Speaker 6: hope this guy can't keep track of eight. And she
Speaker 6: stays there and stays there, quiet and hearing muffling muffled sounds,
Speaker 6: and then an alarm clock goes off in the room,
Speaker 6: and she figures, well, that might frighten him, but he
Speaker 6: doesn't come back in the room. So finally he goes
Speaker 6: out to the second story window and again incredibly freaked
Speaker 6: again not running through the house. She wants to get
Speaker 6: out the first window and yell and scream and say
Speaker 6: they're all dead. They're all dead, My friends are all dead.
Speaker 6: So I can understand what you're saying. This is this woman.
Speaker 6: Her response is different than the others. It just it
Speaker 6: seems more profound horror that she went through with this.
Speaker 3: Richard Seah, Yeah, that's it. She And you can't you
Speaker 3: can't quantify it, you know. Why is it that one
Speaker 3: person responds to this kind of stress one way and
Speaker 3: another does another way? You know what I mean? But
Speaker 3: sure as heck, oh man, you know she knew what
Speaker 3: was happening. You know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this Richard Spec too. You again, I'd not read
Speaker 6: this stuff before. At the time that they're working with Amarero,
Speaker 6: she's described him. And he's at Pete's bar with a
Speaker 6: twelve hosh knife on his belt and he's telling stories
Speaker 6: of killing people in Vietnam with this very blade. Then
Speaker 6: he's demonstrating how he killed them with the twelve inch
Speaker 6: blade on the bartender's throat. They try to kick him out,
Speaker 6: but he's such a charming guy they let him stay
Speaker 6: in there.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 6: He goes to another bar and then he hears oh
Speaker 6: lo and behold the thing that changes his life. There's
Speaker 6: a survivor. He hears about this braggadeiro bragging and boasting.
Speaker 6: Hears about a survivor, and it worries him, doesn't it?
Speaker 3: Yes, it does good. Yeah, sorry, sorry, Richard. The funny
Speaker 3: thing about this Respec thing too, is when I looked
Speaker 3: it up, Oh, man, this guy he was going through
Speaker 3: some what do you call it stuff? Gender reassignment?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, so, you know.
Speaker 3: This guy had a lot of pro you know, problems
Speaker 3: in that you know, in that respect.
Speaker 6: Well, it's just it adds another interesting levels soon as
Speaker 6: you think, well the story is wrapped up. No, no,
Speaker 6: he's getting a sex change, and controversy on how he
Speaker 6: could get female hormones and also a very controversial video
Speaker 6: of him enjoying us is an unlimited sex life with
Speaker 6: the courtesy of somebody got these hormones. So he's getting
Speaker 6: a sex change and parting it up according to him
Speaker 6: in prison. You know, it's interesting. It's interesting, though what
Speaker 6: you include is this amazing She gives a composite drawing.
Speaker 6: She's interested, she gets a drawing maid, helps get the
Speaker 6: drawing maid, and yet again a bunch of missteps by police.
Speaker 6: A couple of cops stop them, but they're unaware of
Speaker 6: her description or that he's even a suspect, so they leave.
Speaker 6: So the other cops are on his trail and they
Speaker 6: have this air tight forensic evidence as you write, and
Speaker 6: he goes to the Star Hotel to try to kill
Speaker 6: himself with this piece of glass. He's rushed to the
Speaker 6: hospital again, the cops never came after somebody said, hey, listen,
Speaker 6: the guy you're looking for. Here's the guy. So the
Speaker 6: guy at in the ambulance amazingly recognizes the tattoo that
Speaker 6: says born to raise Hell remembers the wanted poster, and
Speaker 6: this guy's gig is up incredibly yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I'm laughing, because if you don't laugh, you
Speaker 3: just declining, you know, I mean.
Speaker 6: And and you also talk about this court case too,
Speaker 6: because it's this is not her ordeal isn't over as well,
Speaker 6: because now you get to the court case and she
Speaker 6: doesn't have an easy ride at this court case either,
Speaker 6: does she now?
Speaker 3: Of course, of course not. And you know what else
Speaker 3: is there? Somebody is climbing, you know, something like this.
Speaker 3: Anytime a woman is climbing any sort of sexual assault
Speaker 3: going on, whether with herself or somebody else, she's always
Speaker 3: going to be put through the wringer. That's the way
Speaker 3: our system works.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's sad, very but yeah, this woman, this woman
Speaker 6: is so strong. Like you say, put his ass in
Speaker 6: the electric chair, or at least he would have put
Speaker 6: him in the electric chair, because he died of a
Speaker 6: heart attack in nineteen ninety one. Yep, yep, yes, this
Speaker 6: You have seven survivors of these most seven incredible serial killers.
Speaker 6: It really is again stuff I've never read before, and
Speaker 6: I thought I read most things about most of these cases.
Speaker 6: So it's incredible that the information that you were able
Speaker 6: to garner, and especially in the basic research for this,
Speaker 6: but then one upping it with the perspective of the victims,
Speaker 6: the survivors, I should say, potential victims survivors of these you.
Speaker 3: Know, thank you so much for saying that. I mean,
Speaker 3: I it was. You want to know something, I just
Speaker 3: remember it something I'll never forget it. When I was
Speaker 3: on the way to the airport to go to Louisiana, right, oh,
Speaker 3: I lost I lost the transmission of my car. It's
Speaker 3: amazing how you can remember these things. And I'm going, Jeeve, man,
Speaker 3: you better get to the airport and I'll never forget
Speaker 3: they told they told the car, you know, and I
Speaker 3: was in the front whatever you know, to the airport,
Speaker 3: I got out and so forth. But it was just
Speaker 3: it was just one of those books where so many
Speaker 3: things were happening at that time, personally, professionally, but especially
Speaker 3: the stories these people told. Oh my god, I mean
Speaker 3: it just oh, you know, it made you feel It
Speaker 3: made at the end of the day, it makes you
Speaker 3: feel good, you know what I mean. You know, it
Speaker 3: makes you feel good.
Speaker 6: Well, there's some somewhat happy endings in this and a
Speaker 6: lot of people attributing their survival to God and then
Speaker 6: going from there and helping others, and it just to
Speaker 6: the accomplishment of just getting their life not to be
Speaker 6: destroyed is a major accomplishment. Never mind people surviving, identifying
Speaker 6: the killer, witness testifying at trials, successfully surviving the media,
Speaker 6: you know, being trashed by the means, right, all these things.
Speaker 6: These are incredible survivors we've had survived. I've had survivors
Speaker 6: on this show before in individual cases. This is a
Speaker 6: collection of the most some of the most spectacular stories
Speaker 6: and spectacular tales of survival.
Speaker 3: And go on to thank you.
Speaker 6: So I want to thank you very much, Fred, once again.
Speaker 6: It's always a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 3: Good show. Favorite Dan. I can't thank you enough. And
Speaker 3: I just have to let you know that I actually
Speaker 3: had somebody who contacted me from New Zealand who was
Speaker 3: listening to you, and I just think that is the
Speaker 3: coolest thing man in the world. Thank you so much
Speaker 3: for having me.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Fred for coming on and explaining
Speaker 6: this incredible story. There but for the grace of God,
Speaker 6: survivors of the twentieth centuries infamous serial killers. Hope to
Speaker 6: talk to you again real soon, Fred, it's been too long.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much to have a great evening, Fred.
Speaker 3: Rosan too Audios, Kimo, sati adios.
Speaker 6: Good night,