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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a light man like this man letting butterfly flapping

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<v Speaker 1>and wing. They've down in a forest.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, it gonna cause the tree fall, letting five thousand

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<v Speaker 2>miles away. Man, nobody see nobody else. You see you

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<v Speaker 2>don't need no man's like you followed him another story and.

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<v Speaker 1>You got back to flect that that's the way.

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<v Speaker 2>Man.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't blackly d on.

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<v Speaker 2>The Panama Man.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you don't no matter man anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the most darkly ironic features of the progressive

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<v Speaker 2>is despite the fact that they claim to value openness

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<v Speaker 2>and diversity, what they actually do is the polar opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>That term global homo is both a gay double on

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<v Speaker 2>tundra and also term for global homogenization. Everything being made

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<v Speaker 2>the saint, the same shops, the same attitudes, the same

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<v Speaker 2>culture the world over, just with minor differences in mass

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<v Speaker 2>produced clothing and skin tone. Not a true diversity, not

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<v Speaker 2>a true interest. And this idea of the death of history,

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<v Speaker 2>the global homogenization of human culture and governance, that everyone

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<v Speaker 2>will move to the same system because that is what's worked.

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<v Speaker 2>We found out how to solve for the equation that

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<v Speaker 2>is politics. It's kind of depressing if you think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all exactly the same, and there is a positive

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<v Speaker 2>element to that sort of claim about human worth and

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<v Speaker 2>fair enough discussion for another day. But on the other end,

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<v Speaker 2>do you want to live in a world where everyone

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<v Speaker 2>is the same? Where everyone is simply a gear and

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<v Speaker 2>a massive machine, completely and totally interchangeable, with nothing about

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<v Speaker 2>them that makes them special or unique or different. This

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<v Speaker 2>is what I enjoy about pulp right, the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>mass market fiction of roughly one hundred years ago, the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that Indiana Jones was based on the serial lives

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<v Speaker 2>adventure novels. In my own case, I mentioned this later

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<v Speaker 2>in the episode. I learned how to read on the

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<v Speaker 2>old Tintin comics published in France in the early part

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<v Speaker 2>of the twentieth century. They were adventure novels, adventure comic books.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess for young boys. They're well done. The art's

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<v Speaker 2>very good, incredibly well researched. He really cared a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about guns and planes and the costumes people were in

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<v Speaker 2>a country sidebar. Get it for your kid. You can

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<v Speaker 2>still find them on Amazon. The point is, what's exciting

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<v Speaker 2>about that, what's exciting about Rudyard Kipling, what's excited about

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<v Speaker 2>ga Hendy?

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<v Speaker 1>Well?

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<v Speaker 2>It's the difference. It's the idea that there are still

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<v Speaker 2>parts of the world that are undiscovered, there are still

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<v Speaker 2>things that aren't the same. Everything isn't just one giant

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<v Speaker 2>shopping It's a vibrant world of a multitude of different

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<v Speaker 2>cultures and ways of being. And sure, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>you act herds or you know any of the other authors,

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<v Speaker 2>what they thought about those other people. They might be

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<v Speaker 2>a little disparaging. They might call them savages, right, they

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<v Speaker 2>might use the language that's no longer appropriate. But nonetheless

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<v Speaker 2>there is a recognition of difference, a recognition that all

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<v Speaker 2>cultures are not the same, and this is impacted, to

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<v Speaker 2>be honest, history and archaeology. I mentioned earlier in my

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<v Speaker 2>discussion with memory medieval or the monologue before it, the

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<v Speaker 2>narrative of guilt, right, the idea that because your ancestors

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<v Speaker 2>did something wrong, that well, your dispossession is to be

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<v Speaker 2>deserved to payback. It's historical karma, if you will, And

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<v Speaker 2>certainly the crusades are a part of that. The other

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<v Speaker 2>I guess kind of more prominent, depending on what country

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<v Speaker 2>you find yourself, is that of colonization, that of conquering

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<v Speaker 2>other lands and building civilizations. Like yours, and it's always

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<v Speaker 2>referred to as a uniquely white Western form of evil.

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<v Speaker 2>But the problem is, this is just what people do.

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<v Speaker 2>You or I could argue if colonization is right or

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<v Speaker 2>wrong in any specific instance, but it's sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>arguing that cheating on your wife is bad. I mean, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it is. You shouldn't do it, but people still will

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<v Speaker 2>do it. It's a part of human nature. It's something

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<v Speaker 2>that comes up. It doesn't morally excuse it, per se.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't make it good, doesn't make it okay. But

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that that is unique, that certain cultures are

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<v Speaker 2>uniquely guilty for what seems to be a general human activity,

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<v Speaker 2>is faulty. And sure there are cultures where that is

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<v Speaker 2>more common. Look at France or seemingly that the scandal

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<v Speaker 2>is that. Never mind, won't take aim at the French,

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<v Speaker 2>but where you know, things like extramarital and fidelity are

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<v Speaker 2>very normalized, and there are certainly societies as well where

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<v Speaker 2>conqrest and war are much more normalized. I mean, just

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<v Speaker 2>look at Genghis Khan, right, Cortez has nothing on him.

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<v Speaker 2>But nonetheless, this is pulled back into a deliberate attack.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's interesting is that many of these people sought

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<v Speaker 2>to combine these two trends. I'm talking about both the

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<v Speaker 2>narrative of guilt and also the idea that everything is

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<v Speaker 2>the same, that we found everything there is, and wherever

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<v Speaker 2>we look, you are uniquely bad. There is no one

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<v Speaker 2>like you, unique in your evil. Yet. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of hopeful things that the Internet did, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>a vanishingly small list, I'll be the first one to admit,

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<v Speaker 2>is that it sort of broke the stranglehold that academia

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<v Speaker 2>had on certain forms of knowledge. I mean. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the first early popular podcasts, although he's sort of beclowned

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<v Speaker 2>himself in recent years, is Dan Carlin, the hardcore History Guy.

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<v Speaker 2>The first podcast I ever listened to when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a teenager, and he did compelling pop history, bringing together

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<v Speaker 2>multiple primary sources. You know a few of the most

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<v Speaker 2>popular books written on a subject in dramatizing them right,

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<v Speaker 2>telling them in a way that was accessible. And sure,

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<v Speaker 2>that's relatively light. But if you look at my guests today,

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<v Speaker 2>my guest from a few days ago, you understand that, well,

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<v Speaker 2>there are real experts out there, There are people who

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<v Speaker 2>deeply know their subject matter, and you don't need to

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<v Speaker 2>be honest, go and get a college degree in it. Yeah, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>there's things you can't communicate over the internet. You can

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<v Speaker 2>through a classroom, although depending on when you've gone to school,

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<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't have gotten to make that choice anyway. But

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<v Speaker 2>also this has opened the gate for people to support

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<v Speaker 2>themselves without being in veterate shit lips, to be perfectly

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<v Speaker 2>blunted about that your politics are no longer contingent or

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<v Speaker 2>are a contingent factor. And if you get a paycheck,

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<v Speaker 2>you can be in a political or you can be

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<v Speaker 2>a right wing historian. And sure, you may never get

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<v Speaker 2>a job at Indiana State University, you may never get

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<v Speaker 2>a position at Cambridge, but you can still support yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a way to do that work. And the

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<v Speaker 2>interesting thing is that sort of dim, dreary, dismal view

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<v Speaker 2>that everything has been found, that everything is slowly being

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<v Speaker 2>brought into the gray sludge, right, the villain from the

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<v Speaker 2>never ending story of the Darkness, Right, that everything will

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately fall to entropy and become part of this perfectly

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<v Speaker 2>optimized technical managerial system. Well, once you've broken that, and

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<v Speaker 2>just a little bit, once you've pulled back the curtain

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<v Speaker 2>and say no there's still adventure out there, there are

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<v Speaker 2>still things undiscovered, these cultures that we know only a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about. They're both incredibly human and incredibly alien

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<v Speaker 2>all at once. Well, that old lie that history is over,

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<v Speaker 2>we've done everything, well, it crumbles completely and totally. And

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<v Speaker 2>this very much ties into sort of the negative version

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<v Speaker 2>of the conversation about the Crusaders, and much the same

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<v Speaker 2>way that there's a deliberate narrative that men were never heroic,

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<v Speaker 2>that men never died for things they believed, and only

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<v Speaker 2>for material causes on the confluence the way that the

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<v Speaker 2>enemies of Europe, and when I say that, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>mean like existential or civilization, but just anyone we got

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<v Speaker 2>got in a fight with, are in some way more virtuous,

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<v Speaker 2>more than human. Sort of demi gods is the alternative position.

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<v Speaker 2>And much like the nation of Islam, Well, how can

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<v Speaker 2>these dastardly, cowardly villains have defeated these brave, noble demi gods?

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<v Speaker 2>Well through trickery, through treachery, through guns, Germans and steel,

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<v Speaker 2>right as the line goes. And look, certainly there was

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<v Speaker 2>a technological advantage in certain instances, although not nearly to

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<v Speaker 2>the degree that you would have. Maybe you've been led

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<v Speaker 2>to believe. But look, as I say later in this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>I have the controversial opinion that these people were human

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<v Speaker 2>for good and ill. They may well have done great things,

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<v Speaker 2>but also they went to war, they conquered, they killed,

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<v Speaker 2>and they stole in pretty much the same way that

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<v Speaker 2>everyone else did. Human history is one of conflict. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>it's what we do, and defining a society is absent

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<v Speaker 2>of these sort of human traits is almost bizarre. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like if someone makes a claim that their religious

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<v Speaker 2>group is absent from some sort of sin, right, some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of thing that people do. I don't believe you

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<v Speaker 2>sure greater or lesser rates. Right. I understand some cultures

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<v Speaker 2>are better at some things than others, but that I

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<v Speaker 2>simply do not believe that there is some group of

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<v Speaker 2>people that exists like the Star children. Right, absent from

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<v Speaker 2>the curse simply doesn't add up. And that's another area

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<v Speaker 2>where that sort of bizarre article of faith is falling apart.

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<v Speaker 2>No one believes it anymore, at least no one who cares.

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<v Speaker 2>Because the information was always tightly controlled. It required an

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<v Speaker 2>iron clad grip to maintain the fact that you were

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<v Speaker 2>evil and anyone who ever disagreed with your parents, your

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<v Speaker 2>great grandparents, onto the generations was actually the good guys, right,

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of independent, fundamentalist Baptist view of history. Everyone

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<v Speaker 2>who lost was great and they were us. Everyone who

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<v Speaker 2>won was evil, dastardly and horrible, much like the classics.

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<v Speaker 2>As I've said before, really these people are done. They're cooked.

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<v Speaker 2>As the kids would say. They have institutional backing, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're preaching something that no one cares about. No

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<v Speaker 2>one believes the ostensible populations they're arguing on behalf of

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<v Speaker 2>indigenous or whatever. They don't really care. I mean, just

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<v Speaker 2>look at the flock of people claiming that every new

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<v Speaker 2>infrastructure project encroaches on native lands and so they need

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<v Speaker 2>to be paid money. Right, That's where it comes down to.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, look at the people claiming that certain rocks

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia are sacred and need to be reburied, like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't believe you, you don't care, you drink gasoline.

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<v Speaker 2>And the actual progressive themselves are dying out because again

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<v Speaker 2>you see the same dynamic where if you care about

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<v Speaker 2>history for its own sake, you're not a progressive anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>That series of lies that you were uniquely guilty, that

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<v Speaker 2>historical rivals are uniquely good. That doesn't bear up under examination,

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<v Speaker 2>That doesn't bear up to the truth. It is a lie.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you actually care, that's not where you come down.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're actually interested in discovering the lost pyramids of

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<v Speaker 2>the Amazon Jungle, you're not going to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>kowtow to this sort of retarded state and civic religion.

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<v Speaker 2>They're mutually incompatible goals. It has become like Mouldbugs Cat magazine.

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<v Speaker 2>It is no longer about its initial subject matter. It

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<v Speaker 2>is about the German cat, right, the spirit of the

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<v Speaker 2>German race expressed in a feline form. Or it is

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<v Speaker 2>entirely about progressive politics. It's eaten it right. It's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of like the blob or anything else. Everything must be

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<v Speaker 2>pulled into that homogenizing whirlpool, right, the toilet bowl of modernity.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to be a little less elegant about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's another advantage of ours. Live in

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<v Speaker 2>a world of adventure. We live in a world from

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<v Speaker 2>a certain perspective of enchantment, a world in which people

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<v Speaker 2>and cultures are different, where the world is not simply

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<v Speaker 2>made up of different countries, that don't know that they're

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<v Speaker 2>American yet, And if we could just bomb them a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit, export some some more hrt in condoms, that

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<v Speaker 2>they would be just like us. No, the world is different,

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<v Speaker 2>The world is unexplored. There are things out there that

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<v Speaker 2>you don't understand, that don't necessarily comport with what you

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<v Speaker 2>were taught in your high school geography class. And sure

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<v Speaker 2>I get it right, there are satellites with cameras on them.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say there's an undiscovered continent, although

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<v Speaker 2>who knows, maybe one day we'll get past the ice

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<v Speaker 2>wall and find the second see beyond it. But nonetheless,

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<v Speaker 2>this idea that we know everything, that we have arrived

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<v Speaker 2>at the end, everything that can be known is is

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<v Speaker 2>completely and totally false, And to be honest, I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're all the better for it. It's a world worth living, right,

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<v Speaker 2>A world where there's nothing else to be done, where

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<v Speaker 2>you've reached the summit and any other change simply makes

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<v Speaker 2>it worse. Well, that's that's a nursing home, right, That's

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<v Speaker 2>a world where any sort of striving, any sort of

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<v Speaker 2>differentiation isn't what can't be done. You've achieved a perfect system,

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<v Speaker 2>and they don't actually think this at least in all situations,

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<v Speaker 2>they have that drive to continue optimizing. But the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that the only thing is sort of modern liberal democracy,

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<v Speaker 2>that we've got it, and the only way we can

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<v Speaker 2>make it better is by making it more modern, more liberal,

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<v Speaker 2>or more democratic, it's like, well, that's It's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>depressing now, isn't it. You know, the idea that the

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<v Speaker 2>great equation, the question has been solved, and I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously that's not true, but I think it's exciting, right,

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<v Speaker 2>the idea that no, there is still work to be done,

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<v Speaker 2>There are still things to be found out, discovered, Our

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<v Speaker 2>understanding could change, and not just in the way where

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<v Speaker 2>changing understandings means being more gay right, innovating new forms

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<v Speaker 2>of advanced, political, social, and literal homosexuality right, But there's

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<v Speaker 2>actually something there's an adventure.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that that's something that's sorely needed, especially when

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<v Speaker 2>so many aspects of society have been bubble wrapped. Where

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<v Speaker 2>the idea is that there, in order to make a

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<v Speaker 2>game winnable for the vast number of people, you need

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<v Speaker 2>to well decrease the possibility of failure, decrease the option

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<v Speaker 2>to drop out at the bottom, but also the option

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<v Speaker 2>to transcend, the option to become great, the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 2>do something which has never been done before. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think many of us have grown up in a

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<v Speaker 2>context where you feel as if you've played the entire

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<v Speaker 2>game with the gutter guards up, where realists you never

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<v Speaker 2>really had agency, where it felt as if you were

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<v Speaker 2>simply discovering or exploring I guess, a pre built adventure,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, going down the mind cart, as it were.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why I think that idea of adventure, that

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<v Speaker 2>idea that there is still something out there that we

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<v Speaker 2>have not achieved, this sort of I guess you could say,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of maximal point of human progress, if that's even

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<v Speaker 2>an idea we believe in, which at least in my case,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really not. It is so intoxicated. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>if we can add an addendum onto that great phrase

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<v Speaker 2>from Dave Green, the one that says, you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>have a monopoly on men who care, I think a

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<v Speaker 2>secondary point as well, we've got a monopoly on adventure.

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<v Speaker 2>Look that things are grant from a certain perspective, right,

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<v Speaker 2>things aren't going well. I've said this a number of times,

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<v Speaker 2>but what's better to either say well, this is as

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<v Speaker 2>good as it's ever going to get. You simply have

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<v Speaker 2>to write it out, get to sixty two so you

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<v Speaker 2>can you know your wife around on a Disney cruise

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<v Speaker 2>once you retire, or to say, well, guess what the

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<v Speaker 2>world is scary, evil is real, so gird up your loins,

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<v Speaker 2>as they would have said back in the day.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a compelling pitch. I's just sort of

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<v Speaker 2>one that I fell for, if we can use that term.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is exciting. It is a chance to reclaim agency,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't like that term agency is very business y.

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<v Speaker 2>Really reclaim courage, right to do something, to have a

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<v Speaker 2>chance for greatness and also a chance to fail. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know. It's a hell a lot better than nothing

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<v Speaker 2>that said. Let me introduce Thomas Wayne Riley, a friend

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<v Speaker 2>of mine, guy I have known for a while, great

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<v Speaker 2>history podcaster. Talk all about Indians, the undiscovered wilds of

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<v Speaker 2>North and South America, and cannibalism. But before I start that,

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<v Speaker 2>I think everyone should head over to my sponsor, Fox

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<v Speaker 2>and Son's Coffee at their coffee this morning. I just

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<v Speaker 2>had a little more of their coffee before I started this.

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<v Speaker 2>As you can probably tell I'm a little hyped out,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's in large part due to whatever the salvadoran.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the correct form. That verb verb is

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<v Speaker 2>not the correct part of the speech. Coffee from Alsalador

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<v Speaker 2>is good. You should try it. Alternately, you can throw

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<v Speaker 2>me money directly. Just give me a few bucks on

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<v Speaker 2>any of the platforms you get the episodes early in

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<v Speaker 2>ed free. I appreciate it. Without further ado, Thomas Wayne Riley.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, Thomas Wayne Riley, welcome back to the Jay

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<v Speaker 2>Burdon Show. How you doing man?

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<v Speaker 1>Great?

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<v Speaker 2>How are you doing doing great? Glad to have you

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<v Speaker 2>back on. I know I say this all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>but I can't believe how long it's been since last

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<v Speaker 2>time you appeared. So I'll give you a chance to

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<v Speaker 2>reintroduce yourself to my audience. Hopefully they haven't forgotten about you.

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<v Speaker 2>But it has been what almost two years now since

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<v Speaker 2>you and I spoke. So, Thomas, well, who are you

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<v Speaker 2>and what do you do? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Thomas Wayne Riley. I live in New Mexico and

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<v Speaker 1>I have a history show called The American Southwest, where

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<v Speaker 1>I talk about everything from the Spanish to the Indians

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<v Speaker 1>to the Civil War, and now I'm doing a huge

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<v Speaker 1>series on the Mexican War. I'm also on American Spirits

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<v Speaker 1>on Monday. For now, Yeah, I'm running for county commissioner.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you live in my district, vote for me,

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<v Speaker 1>which hopefully someone out there is that's.

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<v Speaker 2>About to say, I mean, I hope so too. But

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<v Speaker 2>knowing my demos, this might be some of your worst campaigning,

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<v Speaker 2>at least as far as how long it takes you

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<v Speaker 2>to reach voters. But in all seriousness, right, you do

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of great work on American history and American

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<v Speaker 2>Western history, which I'll be the first to admit I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know a lot about. And when you and I

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<v Speaker 2>were going back and forth talking about what we were

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<v Speaker 2>going to discuss, the general conception of sort of westward expansion, right,

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of cultural idea that it was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of criminals, thieves and liars up against peace

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<v Speaker 2>loving you know, hippies with feathers in their hair, just

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<v Speaker 2>stomping them into the dirt. And obviously that's a cultural weapon, right,

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<v Speaker 2>That isn't a neutral view of history. But you particularly

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned the idea of mancorn, which I'll let you explain.

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<v Speaker 2>So what does that term mean Thomas.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a great archaeologist named Christy Turner who in

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<v Speaker 1>the nineties wrote a book called Mancorn. He borrowed it

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<v Speaker 1>from Nehuattle. So he borrowed the term from Mexico and

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<v Speaker 1>it means cannibalism. These people their main diet was corn,

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<v Speaker 1>beans and squash, corn being the biggest, and so mancorn

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<v Speaker 1>was kind of used to describe the rather prolific examples

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<v Speaker 1>of people being eaten in the American Southwest.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's one of those things that I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>of course I had heard stories about that, right, there

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<v Speaker 2>were always stories about that, and even as someone who's

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<v Speaker 2>not a history and you hear them, but it's definitely

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<v Speaker 2>not something that's emphasized at show. We say public school

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<v Speaker 2>American history. Right, it's not really what you get to.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's just dive in, right, how common was this practice?

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<v Speaker 2>So found?

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<v Speaker 1>I tried to find the percentage before we went live.

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't, so if that's on me, I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>something like eight to twelve percent of all bodies recovered

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<v Speaker 1>from the Four Corners area show signs of cannibalism. It

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<v Speaker 1>is a ridiculously high number because it should be about zero.

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<v Speaker 1>And these were not people who were eaten because somebody

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<v Speaker 1>else was hungry. They were eaten as a message. And

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes they were eaten and then you know, pooped out

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<v Speaker 1>into the hearth the center of their homes, and then

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<v Speaker 1>they would burn the house down. That's how we have

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<v Speaker 1>fossilized copper lights of people that were eaten by other people,

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<v Speaker 1>normally sent by the central government, if you can call

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<v Speaker 1>it that. A Chaco canyon, there was a giant empire

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<v Speaker 1>we called the Anasazi. You can call it ancestral Puebloans.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the correct term. But I don't I find that lacking.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the Anasazi ancient enemy are ones who aren't

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<v Speaker 1>like us in Navajo because they are not related most

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<v Speaker 1>for the most part to the people who built these

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<v Speaker 1>all the ruins that you would go to and visit

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<v Speaker 1>in New Mexico and Arizona, Colorado, Utah. These people were

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<v Speaker 1>ruled by a rotating king almost so the families would

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<v Speaker 1>share in ruling this massive empire of the Anasazi. And

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<v Speaker 1>they got there about six hundred eighty and then they

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<v Speaker 1>left abruptly about twelve eighty eighty. First they went to

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona and then they went down in New Mexico, and

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<v Speaker 1>then they kind of disappeared. They probably probably became the Tarahumara.

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<v Speaker 1>They continued eating people even down south in Mexico, but

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<v Speaker 1>the people here it seemed like they had enough. And

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<v Speaker 1>in the beginning there was a lot of cannibalism, and

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<v Speaker 1>then it kind of died down for hundreds of years

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<v Speaker 1>because I guess think you know, crops were growing, corners,

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<v Speaker 1>growing things weren't that bad. But when it got a

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<v Speaker 1>little rough, maybe somebody didn't pay taxes in corn or

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<v Speaker 1>somebody was practicing the wrong religion, the state most likely

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<v Speaker 1>sent out a little army or a group of thugs

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<v Speaker 1>to go eat every one of them. Not everyone in

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<v Speaker 1>the Southwest, but whoever was committing a wrong. Well, the

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<v Speaker 1>god sent a message no one would ever live in

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<v Speaker 1>those houses again, and it there are a surprising amount

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<v Speaker 1>of sites.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there are a couple of things you mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>that this was ritualized. It wasn't done necessarily for sustenance.

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<v Speaker 2>And even if you know you or I might have

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<v Speaker 2>moral qualms with eating someone in a time of famine,

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<v Speaker 2>you can I mean, you gotta do the math. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't anyone's first choice, but it does happen, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is something completely different. Right, you mentioned this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of intimidation tactic, and I'll be honest, if someone you

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<v Speaker 2>know ate me, passed me and then burned my house down,

395
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<v Speaker 2>it does send a message a strong it's you know,

396
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<v Speaker 2>a little more than a strongly worded letter. I'll put

397
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<v Speaker 2>it that way. That you were you know, you're not

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<v Speaker 2>in favor with power. So, uh, what is other than

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<v Speaker 2>the obvious? All right? The ritual significance of this? Was

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<v Speaker 2>there a religious element as well? Or was it simply yeah,

401
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.000
<v Speaker 2>we killed them and ate it like we're scary bad guys.

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<v Speaker 1>I wish I knew if there was a like a

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<v Speaker 1>religious element, if there was, and it wasn't all the time,

404
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<v Speaker 1>because there were hundreds of years where it was very

405
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<v Speaker 1>very rare. I mean, there's long stretches in the archaeological

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<v Speaker 1>record where it never happened. So it's kind of assumed

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<v Speaker 1>when stuff started. There used to there were like about

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred years of every ten years there'd be a

409
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<v Speaker 1>couple of year droft, and that started in about twelve

410
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<v Speaker 1>hundred and so it got tougher and tougher over that

411
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<v Speaker 1>those few or that century to rely on the crops

412
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<v Speaker 1>because the rain didn't come or it came too late.

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<v Speaker 1>In the Southwest, it's very delicate. If you plant your

414
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<v Speaker 1>corn a week too early, that dies. If you plant

415
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:16.680
<v Speaker 1>in a week too late, it doesn't get enough rain.

416
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:19.039
<v Speaker 1>So the rain has got to come like clockwork during

417
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.240
<v Speaker 1>the monsoons, and that wasn't happening during the twelve hundreds,

418
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 1>and so it looks like maybe some people got upset

419
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.440
<v Speaker 1>that they had to continue to pay taxes. And this

420
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.559
<v Speaker 1>is just assuming, but and they didn't want to, so

421
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.960
<v Speaker 1>they didn't send their bushel of corn to Chocolate Cannon

422
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:38.599
<v Speaker 1>and they were taught a lesson. So I'm not sure

423
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:42.480
<v Speaker 1>if it's ritual, but it definitely was to be a

424
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.440
<v Speaker 1>sending message.

425
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:51.880
<v Speaker 2>So this sort of desecration of corpses is when I say,

426
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 2>not normal in European wars. I realized there are exceptions,

427
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:02.400
<v Speaker 2>but as a general rule, it's not so something done now, okay,

428
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, you can go back to the Romans crucifying people.

429
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.039
<v Speaker 2>It's not to say that, you know, European wars are

430
00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:12.039
<v Speaker 2>particularly pleasant, but there's a taboo around it. And I realized,

431
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.440
<v Speaker 2>when we're talking about the colonization of a con continent.

432
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>That's a whole lot of different people. But was this

433
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.799
<v Speaker 2>something that, you know, the white Westerners were prepared for,

434
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:25.720
<v Speaker 2>or was this something that they uh, to put it mildly,

435
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>reacted negatively to.

436
00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:32.799
<v Speaker 1>So when the Spanish got to New Mexico, they tried

437
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.279
<v Speaker 1>to convert as many of the Puebloans and other tribes

438
00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>as they could, and they did a good job sometimes,

439
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:43.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, roughly, but in eighteen hundred, I think it

440
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.480
<v Speaker 1>was eighteen oh six maybe, or seventeen oh six, don matter,

441
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.640
<v Speaker 1>seventeen oh six, it was seventeen oh six. The Hopie

442
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:56.240
<v Speaker 1>Puebloans they are in Arizona, and they had four maces

443
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.000
<v Speaker 1>that they lived on. They only live on three now,

444
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:00.519
<v Speaker 1>but they had four they lived on, and one of

445
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.720
<v Speaker 1>them was the one that was closest to the Spaniards.

446
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:06.119
<v Speaker 1>Because the Spanners didn't go over to the Hope because

447
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:11.039
<v Speaker 1>the Hopi or the Anasazi when they they had whatever reason,

448
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.880
<v Speaker 1>they left. When they left, they first went to Arizona.

449
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:16.720
<v Speaker 1>They left some of them in there in Arizona, that

450
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 1>would be the Hopie, and the rest of them went

451
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:20.319
<v Speaker 1>down to Mexico and the Hope. So they are still

452
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.799
<v Speaker 1>related to the Anasazi and the Spanish found this out.

453
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:29.359
<v Speaker 1>They during the Pueblo Revolt of sixteen eighty, the Puebloans

454
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:30.759
<v Speaker 1>kicked out all of the Spanners. They had to go

455
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.279
<v Speaker 1>all the way back down to El Paso or the

456
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:36.400
<v Speaker 1>other one, Juarez, but it used to be called something different.

457
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.440
<v Speaker 1>And so they all were sitting on the other side

458
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:41.680
<v Speaker 1>of the Rio Grand waiting to come back. And when

459
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.599
<v Speaker 1>they did, they you know, took they reconquered New Mexico,

460
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:49.480
<v Speaker 1>and a whole bunch of Publoans fled to the Hope maces.

461
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 1>Now these people historically didn't like each other, but by now,

462
00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.759
<v Speaker 1>after over one hundred years of Spanish rule, they were

463
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.759
<v Speaker 1>like a lot of people would flee the pueblos and

464
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.079
<v Speaker 1>go with the Hopie and this one mesa, the furthest

465
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.119
<v Speaker 1>eastern mesa, was the only mesa that had a Catholic

466
00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.640
<v Speaker 1>church on it, and they had priests and a lot

467
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:14.720
<v Speaker 1>of these Hopie were Catholic. Well, the other Hope he

468
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.559
<v Speaker 1>didn't like that. So one morning the three Masas teamed up,

469
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>went to the fourth mesa and killed everyone on it,

470
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.279
<v Speaker 1>pushed a bunch of people off the side of the mesa,

471
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.759
<v Speaker 1>mostly women. Then they walked down the side of the

472
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 1>mesa went down to where these women fell and ate them.

473
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:35.279
<v Speaker 1>And the Spanish found out and they kind of put

474
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.640
<v Speaker 1>almost like we don't go to hope Masas anymore. That's

475
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:42.319
<v Speaker 1>just too much. And the Hopies explain why they did this,

476
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:47.319
<v Speaker 1>and it was because that mesa was practicing witchcraft Catholicism,

477
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:50.559
<v Speaker 1>and so that was their way of dealing with it,

478
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:54.680
<v Speaker 1>slaughtering the entire mesa and eating a lot of people.

479
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.440
<v Speaker 1>And that when that was found, that was pretty disturbing

480
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.359
<v Speaker 1>because they were like, why are all these bottoms or

481
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:03.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, why are all these bodies at the bottom

482
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.519
<v Speaker 1>of his wash at the below this mesa. And when

483
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:12.359
<v Speaker 1>they started looking, the bones had evidence of cannibalism, which

484
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.759
<v Speaker 1>you can see from the cup marks on the bones,

485
00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:18.759
<v Speaker 1>and a big giveaway is pop polishing. So you just

486
00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:23.279
<v Speaker 1>they disarticulated every bone. It's gross. They took out I

487
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:25.279
<v Speaker 1>mean they literally just tore every bone off and then

488
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>put threw it in a pot to boil the meat.

489
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.759
<v Speaker 1>And when the meat is boiling, the bone scrapes against

490
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.079
<v Speaker 1>the side and it polishes the bone. That is one

491
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:38.839
<v Speaker 1>major way to know if cannibalism happened, and.

492
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:43.480
<v Speaker 2>It's a grim story. Slight aside. If you ever read

493
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Death Comes for the Archbishop, that's Willa Cather. It's a

494
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.680
<v Speaker 2>great novel written in the mid twenties, all about an

495
00:29:51.799 --> 00:29:55.720
<v Speaker 2>archbishop headed out to Santa Fe, New Mexico, right is

496
00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 2>making his way across America. Great book, not at all

497
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:03.200
<v Speaker 2>related to cannibalism, just an aside if you're interested in

498
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.079
<v Speaker 2>that era of history. It takes place later obviously, but

499
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:07.319
<v Speaker 2>worth your time.

500
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.680
<v Speaker 1>I've quoted from that, although I have not read it.

501
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>It's good. It's it's not even that long. And one

502
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:14.599
<v Speaker 2>of the cool things if you're the kind of person

503
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.039
<v Speaker 2>that likes collecting books, is that really nice hardcover first

504
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:21.759
<v Speaker 2>editions are really cheap for that book. So if you

505
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.279
<v Speaker 2>go to like Books a Million, or you know any

506
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 2>of like a books the online sellers, oftentimes if you

507
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>buy a used copy, it's a first edition hardcover for

508
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>like six bucks, so it's almost worth it for that.

509
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.440
<v Speaker 2>It's also a good novel, again not related past the

510
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:41.200
<v Speaker 2>broad connection of a Catholic bishop going to New Mexico.

511
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:46.519
<v Speaker 2>But one of the I guess kind of dramatic, dramatic

512
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:54.160
<v Speaker 2>things about that story, right is the explicitly religious element right,

513
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.559
<v Speaker 2>that there was an antipathy on that kind of like

514
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.119
<v Speaker 2>faith level. And in pop culture when we talk about

515
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of indigenous American religion, it's basically like a synthesis

516
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.960
<v Speaker 2>of fern Gully and Avatar. You know, it's kind of

517
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:16.400
<v Speaker 2>this like very vague concept of you know, animism or

518
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:19.960
<v Speaker 2>this kind of world spirit, the kind of things you

519
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 2>can imagine being turned into like a like a felt

520
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>painting of you know, a guy with a headdress and

521
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.920
<v Speaker 2>a wolf in the back. So again I realized we're

522
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:31.119
<v Speaker 2>talking about a very disparate group of people. But what

523
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.960
<v Speaker 2>were what was the religion of the Hope, right? What

524
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.799
<v Speaker 2>was the religion that they practiced?

525
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:41.839
<v Speaker 1>So they practiced kind of an animistic I mean, the

526
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:47.799
<v Speaker 1>spirits are everywhere. They had a particular God. No, I

527
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.119
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't say God in a particular spirit. That is going

528
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:55.119
<v Speaker 1>to escape me. So that's frustrating. But he basically covered

529
00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:01.480
<v Speaker 1>himself with the blood of animals or enemies, and he

530
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:05.359
<v Speaker 1>would then sit by a fire and bake his head,

531
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.000
<v Speaker 1>and so his head just perpetually gets bigger and bigger

532
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:11.599
<v Speaker 1>and bigger. So if you've ever seen a pictograph or

533
00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:15.519
<v Speaker 1>a petroglyph of like a round circle with just two

534
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.200
<v Speaker 1>holes and maybe a mouth. That is normally it was

535
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.640
<v Speaker 1>right there. I forgot it again, but that's normally this guy.

536
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.519
<v Speaker 1>And so I would imagine, because we can see the

537
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.000
<v Speaker 1>petroglyphs that the Onasazi made and the hope you are

538
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.200
<v Speaker 1>related to the Onasazi, that they probably practice something very similar.

539
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.079
<v Speaker 1>There was a lot of a lot of snakes in petroglyphs.

540
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 1>The Zuni also have a snake ritual where they would

541
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:45.440
<v Speaker 1>gather up all the snakes, and I don't remember if

542
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:47.680
<v Speaker 1>it's the same one, but they also had to take

543
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.119
<v Speaker 1>a scalp and stick and roll it up the hill,

544
00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:52.880
<v Speaker 1>and the kids normally did that, and even into the

545
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.240
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenties there were still scalps in jars at Zuni.

546
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:59.400
<v Speaker 1>But so the Hopie, I mean, it's hard to tell

547
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>because we didn't leave any written record, but their religion

548
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:08.759
<v Speaker 1>most certainly came from the south, or it came from

549
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:12.279
<v Speaker 1>the southwest and then went down south, influenced the southerners

550
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 1>there as in what we would call like the Mexican Indians,

551
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:18.039
<v Speaker 1>and then it came back up That's probably actually what happened.

552
00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:23.279
<v Speaker 1>But so they were very influenced with South meso American

553
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:29.119
<v Speaker 1>religions and their religions were focused on obviously water, bringing water,

554
00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 1>because water is all important in the Southwest. Without it

555
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.519
<v Speaker 1>can't grow, you can't live, and so it was water.

556
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.160
<v Speaker 1>And if you've ever seen this is kind of a

557
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.960
<v Speaker 1>quick aside here, but you ever seen the picture, sorry,

558
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:48.039
<v Speaker 1>petroglyphs of like the spirit looking guys where the their

559
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.680
<v Speaker 1>bottoms like taper off and they're always like maybe they're

560
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:55.799
<v Speaker 1>holding snakes. That is to signify that they have power

561
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.720
<v Speaker 1>over life. If they're holding snakes. Sometimes it's cornstalks that

562
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:03.240
<v Speaker 1>they are. But it's not sure why they're painted like

563
00:34:03.319 --> 00:34:06.279
<v Speaker 1>that or chipped into the wall like that with the

564
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:10.719
<v Speaker 1>with the bottoms kind of looking all spooky, ghostly. But

565
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:14.800
<v Speaker 1>I really like I read that maybe it is if

566
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.119
<v Speaker 1>you've ever been to the desert and you can see

567
00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:19.840
<v Speaker 1>a long distance and there's like maybe a storm and

568
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.480
<v Speaker 1>the rain is falling, and you can see the columns

569
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:26.239
<v Speaker 1>of rain. Sometimes if it's really hot, the rain never

570
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:29.159
<v Speaker 1>even touches the ground. It's called virga. And so I

571
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 1>like to think that those like spooky spirit guys are

572
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:35.880
<v Speaker 1>obviously they're they're holding life in their hands with the

573
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.039
<v Speaker 1>snakes or the corn, and it's water coming down, and

574
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:43.880
<v Speaker 1>so we're not too sure. But the Weblowins may or

575
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.440
<v Speaker 1>may not still practice some form of their older religion,

576
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.079
<v Speaker 1>but they keep that very close to the vest. They don't.

577
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.159
<v Speaker 1>They don't let foreigners come, outsiders come. So that is

578
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:59.719
<v Speaker 1>you can get books about it. But it's yeah, it's

579
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.159
<v Speaker 1>it's they sit in a room and they hope that

580
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the rain comes.

581
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:08.360
<v Speaker 2>So you mentioned the practice of scalping, which is rendered

582
00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:12.119
<v Speaker 2>in loving detail in both one of my favorite books,

583
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Blood Meridian, and then another book which I think is

584
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:18.880
<v Speaker 2>one of my favorite books, although I would never really

585
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:25.000
<v Speaker 2>recommend it, Scalp Dance right, which I gave to the tenant,

586
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.159
<v Speaker 2>the guy who rents the other half of my house,

587
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.119
<v Speaker 2>and I think his exact comments were, forgive me, Jesus

588
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:34.480
<v Speaker 2>christ Man, why would you give this to me without

589
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.119
<v Speaker 2>a warning. It is a bunch of primary sources collected

590
00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.360
<v Speaker 2>into one talking about the Plains War. It's a great book.

591
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Highly recommend it, but let's talk about that, because I

592
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:47.880
<v Speaker 2>think it's something that is other than a few kind

593
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:52.440
<v Speaker 2>of cultural touchstones like those that I've mentioned, not particularly

594
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.840
<v Speaker 2>well understood. I mean, okay, the mechanics of it are

595
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.360
<v Speaker 2>relatively simple, right, you know, there's once you've had it described,

596
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.639
<v Speaker 2>you pretty mu you get it. But can you explain

597
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.039
<v Speaker 2>this practice? Right? How widely spread is it? Did it

598
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.159
<v Speaker 2>serve some kind of social significance? Was there a kind

599
00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:14.199
<v Speaker 2>of ritualistic or trophy element to it? And uh where

600
00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:17.079
<v Speaker 2>do we see it? Right? Particularly I guess as you'd imagine,

601
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:22.320
<v Speaker 2>right in interactions with Westerns, right, our people right Obviously

602
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.559
<v Speaker 2>again I feel I'm saying this. No one wants to

603
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>get scalp, that's an obvious one. But uh yeah, so

604
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:30.800
<v Speaker 2>how common practice? How common a practice was this?

605
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, if you ask the Indians, they didn't do it.

606
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.320
<v Speaker 1>It was introduced by the white man, and that is

607
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 1>just patently false. Scalping was from the northeast all the

608
00:36:42.440 --> 00:36:48.119
<v Speaker 1>way to California, particularly the Apache, although they will deny it,

609
00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:53.000
<v Speaker 1>but there's there's countless firsthand sources of the Apache scalping

610
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Westerners and other Indians and the Zuni had the scalp

611
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:00.239
<v Speaker 1>dance I think, or the snake I don't remember, stink

612
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:03.599
<v Speaker 1>ceremony or the scalp ceremony. And they kept them in jars.

613
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.480
<v Speaker 1>So and who knows how long they've been doing that.

614
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:11.000
<v Speaker 1>But the Apache were they would scalp, but they wouldn't

615
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.280
<v Speaker 1>keep it. So they would scalp and maybe carried around

616
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:15.920
<v Speaker 1>for a day or two, put it on their horse,

617
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:18.639
<v Speaker 1>but it was bad luck to keep it for too

618
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:20.960
<v Speaker 1>long as a trophy forever. It's just kind of a

619
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.079
<v Speaker 1>look what I just got kind of thing. Don't mess

620
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:26.280
<v Speaker 1>with me. They would tie it to their the mains

621
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:28.599
<v Speaker 1>of their horses, but they wouldn't keep them. They would

622
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.280
<v Speaker 1>just toss them out because the Zuni, I'm sorry, the

623
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Apache believe like however you die is how you wander

624
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.559
<v Speaker 1>the afterlife forever. So it's kind of like an fu

625
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.320
<v Speaker 1>you're going to be scalpless for eternity. I'm not sure

626
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:48.760
<v Speaker 1>if the Pueblowins did it really actually I should know that.

627
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:51.559
<v Speaker 1>But of course the Plains Indian is the commanche. The

628
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Apache and the Apache were from Texas to i mean

629
00:37:56.159 --> 00:38:01.360
<v Speaker 1>the Colorado River bordering California and Colorado in Utah, so

630
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:05.079
<v Speaker 1>they had and obviously way down in Mexico too, So

631
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 1>they had this vast empire that they took from the

632
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.360
<v Speaker 1>Anasazi and then the commands she took it from them.

633
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:15.280
<v Speaker 1>But scalping was something that I think the white man

634
00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 1>witnessed and it was shocking, and so they were like,

635
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.880
<v Speaker 1>all right, this is what we're gonna have to do

636
00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:23.440
<v Speaker 1>to our enemies because they do that to us. It's

637
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:26.480
<v Speaker 1>about I need to get my hands on this book. That.

638
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:31.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I highly recommend it. Weirdly enough, I think I

639
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 2>got recommended it indirectly, of course, by Dan Carlin like

640
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:42.239
<v Speaker 2>fifteen years ago, which is funny because he probably wouldn't

641
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.760
<v Speaker 2>have mentioned it now, you know, given how that is

642
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.360
<v Speaker 2>a shaken out. But you know, I'll give him credit.

643
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:50.519
<v Speaker 2>There was a point in time where he was unbothered

644
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.519
<v Speaker 2>by a terminal case of PDS. But point is, Yeah,

645
00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:59.519
<v Speaker 2>it's a fascinating book and it primarily concerns. It's sort

646
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of a narrow of eysed collection of first hand accounts.

647
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:07.559
<v Speaker 2>So you know, you have a lot of uh cavalry scouts,

648
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, getting separated, and then you know three guys

649
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.280
<v Speaker 2>vainly trying to make it back to camp and then

650
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, getting butchered in view of their friends. It's

651
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:22.880
<v Speaker 2>it's grim. Believe me. My buddy's reaction is uh, I

652
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:26.280
<v Speaker 2>would say typical for most people reading that. Probably that

653
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:29.719
<v Speaker 2>should be your reaction. It is, you know, extraordinarily grim.

654
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.199
<v Speaker 2>But if you've read Blood Meridian, a lot of people

655
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:38.559
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of those stories and primary sources are referenced.

656
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't necessarily know if it was direct, but they're

657
00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:44.599
<v Speaker 2>pulling from the same material, right, So if you're interested

658
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:48.480
<v Speaker 2>in the actual history behind it, I recommend it. Uh

659
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the And it's funny you you bring up

660
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the Spanish because one of the kind of constant canards

661
00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:03.079
<v Speaker 2>is oh, well, of course the Europeans won. They had guns,

662
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:05.920
<v Speaker 2>they had all this technology, and so it wasn't even

663
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:09.039
<v Speaker 2>a fair fight, right, it was just endlessly kind of

664
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 2>punching down. And look, certainly there is a technological difference.

665
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:15.320
<v Speaker 2>But what I thought was interesting I did a little

666
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:18.079
<v Speaker 2>bit of research. And this is not your area of expertise.

667
00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:19.679
<v Speaker 2>You don't feel like you have to, like, you know,

668
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:23.480
<v Speaker 2>have a bunch prepared on this, but is in the

669
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Conquest of Mexico, the Spanish conquest of Mexico, I radically

670
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 2>overestimated how many firearms were present. It effectively was swords

671
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Speaker 2>and shields, which you know, you do the math on

672
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:38.159
<v Speaker 2>when it happened. You're like, okay, that makes sense, But again,

673
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:43.360
<v Speaker 2>not the image portrayed. So in these battles, right, these

674
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:47.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of conflicts, what was typical, right was it? You know,

675
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:51.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of an immense technological advantage to what degree? And

676
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, when these conflicts are happening, like how do

677
00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:57.519
<v Speaker 2>these people fight? Right? How did this shake out? And

678
00:40:57.559 --> 00:40:59.760
<v Speaker 2>again we're talking about a lot of people over a

679
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:03.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of time. You know, I realized we're talking even

680
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:06.119
<v Speaker 2>just in the Southwest about you know, half a dozen

681
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.920
<v Speaker 2>different cultures and ethnic groups. But what did that shake out?

682
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 1>Like?

683
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Right, what was the disparity? How did these two groups

684
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:13.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, actually fight it out?

685
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:18.360
<v Speaker 1>So the Spanish had the atomic bomb of the horse,

686
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:23.800
<v Speaker 1>and there was just very little an armored man can do,

687
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:27.599
<v Speaker 1>or very little a native could do against an armored

688
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 1>man on a horse with a lance, because you don't

689
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.400
<v Speaker 1>they didn't shoot from the horse. They would take lances

690
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:38.000
<v Speaker 1>and you know, pike you or slash you. And a

691
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.039
<v Speaker 1>lot of times when the Spanish had to put down

692
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:44.760
<v Speaker 1>a rebellion or had to go fight some Puebloans, the

693
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.920
<v Speaker 1>pub Blowans would leave their pueblo and they always had

694
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:51.679
<v Speaker 1>a secondary pueblow or a secondary area where they had

695
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:58.280
<v Speaker 1>stored river rocks. Essentially or some arrows, and they would

696
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.440
<v Speaker 1>run up to this high spot and just rain down

697
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:06.039
<v Speaker 1>rocks and arrows and push over boulders on the Spanish

698
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:08.280
<v Speaker 1>who had to come climb up and go get them.

699
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:12.519
<v Speaker 1>And so that happened pretty much almost every time, and

700
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.280
<v Speaker 1>when the Spanish finally would get to the top, they

701
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:19.400
<v Speaker 1>almost always won and they punished those who were pushing

702
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:24.880
<v Speaker 1>boulders down on them. The puebloins themselves, they got attacked

703
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:28.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot by the Apache, and the Apache would sneak

704
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:32.920
<v Speaker 1>in and they would pretty much just bash them or

705
00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:36.800
<v Speaker 1>ax them, normally in Lack in the night or when

706
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.559
<v Speaker 1>they were sleeping. They were just coming to the pueblo

707
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:41.840
<v Speaker 1>and just carnage. A lot of times they would gather

708
00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:45.320
<v Speaker 1>people up into the kivas, which was like a bedroom

709
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:49.360
<v Speaker 1>or I guess like a ceremonial center, and they would

710
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:51.480
<v Speaker 1>just light it on fire and just burn everyone. And

711
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.880
<v Speaker 1>that happened. That actually happened like the moment the Apache

712
00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:59.639
<v Speaker 1>got here in the late thirteen hundreds, So that was

713
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:01.280
<v Speaker 1>one of the firs that did is gather up everyone

714
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:03.519
<v Speaker 1>who was fighting them, put them in a building and

715
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:07.199
<v Speaker 1>light the building on fire. That happened. So the Puebloans

716
00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:11.119
<v Speaker 1>also did that. The Anasazians did that up in Mesa Verde.

717
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:15.119
<v Speaker 1>You know the very famous cliff dwelling in southern Colorado

718
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:20.000
<v Speaker 1>that was built for defensive purposes. So that's the only

719
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, and those are all over the Southwest, and

720
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:26.199
<v Speaker 1>they were mostly built after things started to deteriorate a

721
00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:29.679
<v Speaker 1>little bit. Not may Severia necessarily, but it did expand

722
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:32.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot. And I mean they would build there'd be

723
00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 1>one pathway up to this sandstone cave, and they would

724
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:40.000
<v Speaker 1>put walls and they were always there, and they would

725
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.079
<v Speaker 1>have holes to shoot arrows from or throw rocks from,

726
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.159
<v Speaker 1>and so a lot of the fights here were I

727
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:51.039
<v Speaker 1>don't know. I mean, there are some petroglyphs of two

728
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:56.440
<v Speaker 1>sides like throwing stuff at each other, like spears at

729
00:43:56.440 --> 00:44:00.320
<v Speaker 1>each other, and we know that they had shields because

730
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:05.199
<v Speaker 1>they're depicted everywhere. So I imagine a lot of the warring

731
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:09.239
<v Speaker 1>before Monit, maybe before the Spanish got here, was kind

732
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:12.119
<v Speaker 1>of lining up throwing spears. I mean, we've seen the

733
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.480
<v Speaker 1>videos of this, you know, and like pop on New Guinea,

734
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.320
<v Speaker 1>they kind of just throw the stuff at each other

735
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.039
<v Speaker 1>until someone gets hurting and they run away and it's like, oh,

736
00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:21.480
<v Speaker 1>let's go get them now, or maybe all right, we

737
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:23.840
<v Speaker 1>won and so, but a lot of the warring and

738
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:27.519
<v Speaker 1>the fighting I think was just sneaky sneaking into the

739
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 1>pueblo at night and killing everyone. A lot of times

740
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:34.239
<v Speaker 1>they could cover, they could plug the whole of the kiva,

741
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:37.440
<v Speaker 1>and so they got a fire in there, everyone's sleeping,

742
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.559
<v Speaker 1>they plug it, then they don't wake up. I mean,

743
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:43.679
<v Speaker 1>there's a couple instances of that in the archaeological record,

744
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.159
<v Speaker 1>and so I don't think it was like full scale

745
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:50.480
<v Speaker 1>fighting until the Spanish got there, and so they had

746
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:54.280
<v Speaker 1>to they had to get together with other pueblos, go

747
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:56.960
<v Speaker 1>to a high point and defend as long as they could,

748
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.039
<v Speaker 1>which sometimes it was a couple of days, sometimes not

749
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:01.559
<v Speaker 1>very long.

750
00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 2>It's an interesting thing that because it's sort of this

751
00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:09.480
<v Speaker 2>like mix of Stone Age and medieval warfare, right like,

752
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.920
<v Speaker 2>on one hand, the tools are quite primitive, but also

753
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.239
<v Speaker 2>we've sort of just re engineered sieges, you know, from

754
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:19.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of first principles. As the joke runs, it's an

755
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:25.559
<v Speaker 2>interesting thing. And you know, you mention the the petroglyphs

756
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:31.400
<v Speaker 2>and the absence of a written language, so I imagine you

757
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:36.639
<v Speaker 2>are sort of forced to reconstruct things from images. Right,

758
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.599
<v Speaker 2>There isn't necessarily a text you can point to. So

759
00:45:41.199 --> 00:45:45.159
<v Speaker 2>what is the history of studying these people look like?

760
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:48.400
<v Speaker 2>Because seemingly if you're working off of a sort of

761
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:51.400
<v Speaker 2>a number of petroglyphs, right, that doesn't leave you with

762
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.519
<v Speaker 2>a ton of information, right, So how has this like

763
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:57.960
<v Speaker 2>study progressed? Right? How have people been able to dig

764
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.559
<v Speaker 2>into this? Are they leaning on accounts from this Spanish?

765
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm just curious. So nobody cared until about the eighteen eighties.

766
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Spanish didn't care. There were there's a very famous exploration

767
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:17.000
<v Speaker 2>by the Spanish to Franciscan Friars, Dominghes and Escalante. They

768
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.760
<v Speaker 2>didn't even right in their journals except one time about

769
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:21.679
<v Speaker 2>the many ruins they saw.

770
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:23.519
<v Speaker 1>They just didn't care. I think they camped in one

771
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:26.440
<v Speaker 1>as the only time that they even mentioned them. Nobody

772
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:31.559
<v Speaker 1>cared until about the eighteen eighties. The first real American

773
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:34.679
<v Speaker 1>was a guy named weather Hill. Weather Hill Mesa is

774
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:40.960
<v Speaker 1>named after him at Mesa Verde. So, of course petroglyph's help,

775
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.360
<v Speaker 1>But it's the it's the desert, so anything buried in

776
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:49.039
<v Speaker 1>the desert it's mummified. It's like perfectly preserved. We have

777
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:52.519
<v Speaker 1>found cloaks. I say, well, I'm not an archaeologist, I

778
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.280
<v Speaker 1>just got my degree in it. But archaeologists have found

779
00:46:55.679 --> 00:46:58.960
<v Speaker 1>cloaks with turkey feathers, and the turkey feathers are still

780
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:02.079
<v Speaker 1>perfectly fine. It's eight hundred years old. Just because it

781
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:04.400
<v Speaker 1>was sitting in a cave. They found mummies, mumm of

782
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.079
<v Speaker 1>five people, wrapped them up and then put them in

783
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.119
<v Speaker 1>the cave to you know, I guess stay there forever.

784
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.280
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, they pretty much did. So. A lot of

785
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.280
<v Speaker 1>it that we know of about the people that were

786
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:21.159
<v Speaker 1>here is from archaeology, digging into the the pits, digging

787
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.320
<v Speaker 1>into their trash, digging into the actual ruins, deconstructing the ruins,

788
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:30.440
<v Speaker 1>and also the Puiblowins have oral history, so it's not written,

789
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.159
<v Speaker 1>but it's oral. One of my favorite archaeologists said, I

790
00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:36.360
<v Speaker 1>think it was actually Christy Turner, the Mancin guy. He said,

791
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.239
<v Speaker 1>oral history isn't worth the paper it's written on, which

792
00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:44.800
<v Speaker 1>is funny because it's not written down, but there is.

793
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:47.920
<v Speaker 1>You can't ignore it all. There is definitely some kernels

794
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.119
<v Speaker 1>of truth and some knowledge to be gained and gleaned

795
00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:54.159
<v Speaker 1>from oral history, but a lot of it's oral history.

796
00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:56.440
<v Speaker 1>A lot of it is physical stuff we've found in

797
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:59.400
<v Speaker 1>the ground and we've recreated, and a lot of it

798
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:07.599
<v Speaker 1>is looking at nearby people like the Mississippians and the Mexicans,

799
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:11.320
<v Speaker 1>the various Mexicans, the toll Techs, the Zappo Tech, the Maya,

800
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:16.039
<v Speaker 1>the Inca Lator which not Inca, sorry, the Aztec and

801
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:19.880
<v Speaker 1>the az Tech. This is this is I am going

802
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:21.960
<v Speaker 1>to say. It is not in anywhere any record, but

803
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:23.320
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of starting to be thought of.

804
00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:23.760
<v Speaker 2>Maybe.

805
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.400
<v Speaker 1>But when the Anasazi fled, they went to Arizona, southern Arizona,

806
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:30.440
<v Speaker 1>southern New Mexico, and then they crossed the Rio grand

807
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.480
<v Speaker 1>and went into Mexico at a place called Casas Grandes

808
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.960
<v Speaker 1>or Peccime, and then something happened. The whole place burned down,

809
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:41.800
<v Speaker 1>and nobody ever for a long time, nobody went back

810
00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 1>and lived there. So the people that lived there definitely

811
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:48.880
<v Speaker 1>became the Tara Humara, you know, the amazing runners that

812
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:53.400
<v Speaker 1>can run for a week in high altitude barefoot, and

813
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:58.239
<v Speaker 1>some of them probably went down south to the Valley

814
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:02.800
<v Speaker 1>of Mexico and started a new civilization there, the Aztec.

815
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Now that is I could be wrong, but I believe

816
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:11.760
<v Speaker 1>that they spoke a similar language Udo Aztec, and and

817
00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:16.039
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of similarities, including the man corn. They

818
00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:20.000
<v Speaker 1>found a tech poddle is a heart carving knife, and

819
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.800
<v Speaker 1>they found one up here, and that was the Aztec ceremonial.

820
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 1>Put you on top of the pyramid, carve your heart out,

821
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:29.719
<v Speaker 1>cut your head off, throw you down, and then add

822
00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:32.519
<v Speaker 1>the head to the pyramid of heads. That we've gotten

823
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.239
<v Speaker 1>the center of town, which was denied that Corte has

824
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.280
<v Speaker 1>made that up. But now they found in Mexico City

825
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.920
<v Speaker 1>doing some like construction on a subway, they found the

826
00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:47.960
<v Speaker 1>side of the of the temple head pyramid temple thing,

827
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:51.400
<v Speaker 1>and in Chaco Canyon it was assumed they were just

828
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:55.000
<v Speaker 1>peblo like style. Enormous, I mean it was the large

829
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.320
<v Speaker 1>Peblo Benito was the largest structure in the America's until

830
00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:01.800
<v Speaker 1>like the eighteen hundreds. It is enormous. But they said

831
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:05.440
<v Speaker 1>that is unrelated because there's no pyramids. Well now we

832
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:11.119
<v Speaker 1>found pyramids. Archaeologists have found pyramids in Choco Canyon, two

833
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:15.239
<v Speaker 1>of them at least, and they're finding more at various

834
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.880
<v Speaker 1>places in the desert around the four corners. So it's

835
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:21.119
<v Speaker 1>kind of getting tough to say. Actually, I think it's

836
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:24.800
<v Speaker 1>impossible to use the Tortilla Curtain, which is the US

837
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Mexico border, and say that they had the same border.

838
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I think that the Mississippians and the Puebloans and the

839
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.400
<v Speaker 1>people down south in Mexico were all in communication, probably

840
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.480
<v Speaker 1>all modeled after the same government, probably had very very

841
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:44.599
<v Speaker 1>similar religions, like the horned serpent, serpent ketzel coadal. They

842
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.280
<v Speaker 1>have found there's a Ketsa Couadal carved into sandstone half

843
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:52.360
<v Speaker 1>an hour from my house, and it was very cool

844
00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:52.679
<v Speaker 1>to see.

845
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:58.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that's an interesting, interesting thing because absent the

846
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of you mentioned, the torque occurred in right, absent

847
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:06.159
<v Speaker 2>that idea that one aweight, it's made up. Oh wait,

848
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.559
<v Speaker 2>it's true. Never mind, it's only those guys absent that

849
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:13.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of social pressure to come to the conclusion. You

850
00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:16.559
<v Speaker 2>know that you mentioned that there's this sort of eternal

851
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:21.239
<v Speaker 2>US Mexico border. It makes logical sense, right, seemingly you

852
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.000
<v Speaker 2>know that that culture would sort of radiate else outward,

853
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and we see that. You know, other places in the world, right,

854
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:31.280
<v Speaker 2>you have dominant cultures, and okay, I realize Chinese and

855
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Korean culture aren't the same, but they're heavily influenced, right,

856
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 2>you can see things that carry over one to another.

857
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:40.920
<v Speaker 2>I was going to apologize to my Korean viewers, but

858
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I have any So if that does

859
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:47.079
<v Speaker 2>offend you, okay, deal with it. But in all seriousness, right,

860
00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:52.039
<v Speaker 2>that is it. It's a logical examination of it. And

861
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:56.079
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that I've become aware of living

862
00:51:56.239 --> 00:52:00.679
<v Speaker 2>in the American South is that often times it becomes

863
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:05.000
<v Speaker 2>very difficult to have an honest conversation about history. Anyone

864
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.199
<v Speaker 2>who's been to Monticello can tell you this is the

865
00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:13.559
<v Speaker 2>fact the political consideration sort of overwhelmed the actual scholarship. Right,

866
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.760
<v Speaker 2>It isn't a real discussion anymore. And so I'm curious,

867
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:19.800
<v Speaker 2>as someone who's passionate about this topic, as someone who

868
00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:22.719
<v Speaker 2>was interested in it, have you noticed something similar? Have

869
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:26.079
<v Speaker 2>you noticed that there is a desire to sweep certain

870
00:52:26.119 --> 00:52:29.679
<v Speaker 2>things under the rug, or to emphasize or deemphasize certain things,

871
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:32.719
<v Speaker 2>to sort of, you know, promote a narrative. And if so,

872
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:35.199
<v Speaker 2>what is if?

873
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:40.119
<v Speaker 1>What is it? It's everything everything. Christy Turner, who wrote Mancorn,

874
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:43.800
<v Speaker 1>he was almost kicked out of academia in nineteen ninety

875
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 1>eight because of it. I mean, it was just wildly

876
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:49.000
<v Speaker 1>outland as he made it all up. Well, fast forward

877
00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:52.199
<v Speaker 1>thirty years and it's now just no, it's just his fact.

878
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.639
<v Speaker 1>What he wrote is true, and maybe he got some

879
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:57.280
<v Speaker 1>stuff wrong. He says, the toll text of Mexico came

880
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:01.239
<v Speaker 1>up and influenced the Southwest. It doesn't matter who it was.

881
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.159
<v Speaker 1>It was just somebody from the south came up and

882
00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:08.039
<v Speaker 1>built these civilizations. That used to be a no go.

883
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:12.840
<v Speaker 1>The fact that another civilization helped these people build this,

884
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.000
<v Speaker 1>because that takes away from the Pueblowen's history of doing

885
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:19.360
<v Speaker 1>it themselves. I don't know how we're all influenced by

886
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:23.599
<v Speaker 1>another culture somehow, And so even that, the fact that

887
00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:27.840
<v Speaker 1>someone would suggest another culture came up and either ruled

888
00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:30.000
<v Speaker 1>them or helped them build it or co ruled with it.

889
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:34.800
<v Speaker 1>That used to be verbotan the Mancorn used to be

890
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:40.519
<v Speaker 1>talking about. Nowadays it's talking about their religious practices at all.

891
00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:43.559
<v Speaker 1>We shouldn't be talking about that because it's not our religion.

892
00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:45.440
<v Speaker 1>I see that all the time. I used to go

893
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:48.800
<v Speaker 1>to conferences. There's a major one in Santa Fe, and

894
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:52.079
<v Speaker 1>I used to go The hell Hold talks every Monday,

895
00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:55.159
<v Speaker 1>and I would go to see my favorite archaeologists. But

896
00:53:55.599 --> 00:53:57.159
<v Speaker 1>after about a year and a half of doing that,

897
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:00.079
<v Speaker 1>I kind of there's new stuff all the time, and

898
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:02.960
<v Speaker 1>just kind of look it up now. But of course

899
00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:04.800
<v Speaker 1>every time before every meeting you had to have a

900
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:09.159
<v Speaker 1>land acknowledgment and then an apology and this isn't our culture,

901
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:11.840
<v Speaker 1>but you know, we're just trying to share it with them.

902
00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:17.400
<v Speaker 1>It's also silly the violence that used to be. Of course,

903
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:22.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, the Engines were just peace loving people, you know,

904
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.000
<v Speaker 1>kumba Ya sitting r on fire, mining their own business.

905
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:29.119
<v Speaker 1>Now it was complete and constant warfare. If not with

906
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:31.639
<v Speaker 1>your neighbor, then with the other tribe. If not with that,

907
00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:35.880
<v Speaker 1>then another nation that's maybe one hundred miles away. You

908
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.559
<v Speaker 1>would rate them every now and then. And so even

909
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:42.119
<v Speaker 1>the violence is now a known fact. People don't like

910
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:46.880
<v Speaker 1>to admit it. But just about everything that is exciting

911
00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:50.559
<v Speaker 1>and fun and new is immediately now it's wrong. There's

912
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:55.719
<v Speaker 1>another big one. The Clovist people, the first people in

913
00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:02.599
<v Speaker 1>the Americas. They came over from the West when Peninsula

914
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:05.079
<v Speaker 1>or the whatever, well, I don't even know the thing

915
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:09.519
<v Speaker 1>in the last what was it, the land bridge yes, yeah,

916
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:11.519
<v Speaker 1>the Landbridge. I just forgot was called because I don't

917
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:13.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't quite. I mean, I know for a fact

918
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:17.280
<v Speaker 1>some people crossed over the landbridge. The Apaches and Navajo's

919
00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:19.639
<v Speaker 1>ancestors were one of the last ones to get to

920
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.920
<v Speaker 1>the New World before it melted, so they're probably the

921
00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:26.280
<v Speaker 1>newest people here and they it took over pretty well

922
00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:29.440
<v Speaker 1>as soon as they did. But that used to be.

923
00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:29.920
<v Speaker 2>That's it.

924
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.880
<v Speaker 1>They came over the land bridge the bearing straight no

925
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.320
<v Speaker 1>but deadtminter. They came over the landbridge and they filled

926
00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:41.119
<v Speaker 1>in the Americas. Well, that is even being completely looked

927
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:44.440
<v Speaker 1>at again now because there's very good evidence that they

928
00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:48.119
<v Speaker 1>also came from Europe down into the Americas that way,

929
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:51.599
<v Speaker 1>And there's also very strong evidence that they would build

930
00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:54.360
<v Speaker 1>little boats kind of like a turtle shell and have

931
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:57.239
<v Speaker 1>just a little little hood on it, and they would

932
00:55:57.760 --> 00:55:59.880
<v Speaker 1>cast off and then go for a little bit and

933
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:02.079
<v Speaker 1>they needed to eat or to drink water or something

934
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:04.000
<v Speaker 1>when they ran out of supplies, and they would just

935
00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:07.079
<v Speaker 1>paddle back to shore, and they just hopped the entire

936
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Pacific and probably the Atlantic coast like that. So this

937
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:15.840
<v Speaker 1>would have been two separate people's possibly because it doesn't matter,

938
00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:20.320
<v Speaker 1>So there's multipleys. I mean, there are sites in South

939
00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:22.920
<v Speaker 1>America that are almost as old as the oldest sites

940
00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:26.400
<v Speaker 1>in North America. So to me, it's they got on

941
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:27.960
<v Speaker 1>a boat and they just kept going all the way

942
00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:31.840
<v Speaker 1>until they got to Icy Mountains again after going the

943
00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:34.639
<v Speaker 1>entire coast down and get into like Peru over there,

944
00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:39.960
<v Speaker 1>And so even how people got here is being reimagined,

945
00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:42.639
<v Speaker 1>and for a long time to even study that was

946
00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:45.840
<v Speaker 1>a no now and now the big debate now is

947
00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:48.880
<v Speaker 1>I guess if you talk to some march I'll just

948
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:50.920
<v Speaker 1>say it's not a debate. We've already decided that this

949
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:53.800
<v Speaker 1>is true. But there are still books being published saying no,

950
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:57.639
<v Speaker 1>it's not all boring you know stuff, but that the

951
00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:00.639
<v Speaker 1>Clovis people were not they were here. There were people

952
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:03.079
<v Speaker 1>here before them, which is very interesting because there are

953
00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:07.639
<v Speaker 1>extremely old sites in the US and in South America,

954
00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:11.519
<v Speaker 1>which is just strange. But say suggesting that they've been

955
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:13.039
<v Speaker 1>here for a lot longer than the Clovis, which is

956
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:16.280
<v Speaker 1>about fifteen thousand, so they probably probably have been here

957
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:20.880
<v Speaker 1>for over twenty thousand. And they just uncovered footprints at

958
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:24.840
<v Speaker 1>White Sands National Park down in southern New Mexico, in

959
00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:27.920
<v Speaker 1>the in the big valley there, I forget to the

960
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Rosa basin and underneath this footprint. So it was real

961
00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.920
<v Speaker 1>wet and muddy back then because all the glaciers were melting,

962
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.480
<v Speaker 1>So just the whole continent was wet. Hundreds of lakes

963
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:42.280
<v Speaker 1>that are no longer here, like the Bonneville and all

964
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:45.280
<v Speaker 1>of If you've ever been to California, you've driven from

965
00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:49.000
<v Speaker 1>eastern California to the coast, you're just constantly going in

966
00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:51.440
<v Speaker 1>basin and range. Well, every one of those basins were

967
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:57.320
<v Speaker 1>lakes at one point. There's millions or billions of birds, mammoths, groundsloths,

968
00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:59.119
<v Speaker 1>just all the really cool creatures that we should bring

969
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:03.679
<v Speaker 1>back probably, And so White Sands was like that. It

970
00:58:03.719 --> 00:58:07.480
<v Speaker 1>was just a real marshy area. And these people walking

971
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:12.559
<v Speaker 1>they're following a giant groundsloth because when they stepped on it,

972
00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:15.639
<v Speaker 1>it hardened and then stuff sentiment went on top of it,

973
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:17.920
<v Speaker 1>and I guess it was softer. And so now we're

974
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.960
<v Speaker 1>just finding footprints that are like twenty thousand years old,

975
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:24.679
<v Speaker 1>and one of them we found that out I keep

976
00:58:24.679 --> 00:58:28.000
<v Speaker 1>saying we, but archaeologists discovered that because under one of

977
00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the footprints was a seed and so you can't measure

978
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.559
<v Speaker 1>the age of a footprint, but you can look at

979
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:37.639
<v Speaker 1>when that seed, how old that seed is, and they've

980
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:39.960
<v Speaker 1>just discovered it's like twenty thousand years old.

981
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's an interesting thing. There a couple things there,

982
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:49.119
<v Speaker 2>which is one I hold to the very controversial opinion

983
00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:54.079
<v Speaker 2>that people other than Europeans are in fact people right

984
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:56.760
<v Speaker 2>for good or for ill. And you know, you sort

985
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:00.840
<v Speaker 2>of see this idea of the noble sat right, the

986
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:05.199
<v Speaker 2>idea that man outside of society quote unquote is living

987
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:08.719
<v Speaker 2>in this sort of natural paradise. And I have major

988
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:11.400
<v Speaker 2>objections with both half of that, right, the idea of

989
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:15.519
<v Speaker 2>a man outside of society. It's like, we'll find me one, right, Like, okay,

990
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:18.239
<v Speaker 2>sure it may not have been as developed and hierarchical

991
00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:21.800
<v Speaker 2>as you know, you'rope er China at you know, a

992
00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 2>contemporary time, but there was a civilization there. There was structure,

993
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:30.679
<v Speaker 2>there was order to it. But also people do bad things,

994
00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:32.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, they go to war with each other. It's

995
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:35.199
<v Speaker 2>sort of you know, part of the deal. And you

996
00:59:35.239 --> 00:59:37.920
<v Speaker 2>see that of course, you know everywhere there is human

997
00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:42.599
<v Speaker 2>civilization or humans at all. I didn't know actually about

998
00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:45.639
<v Speaker 2>that that twenty thousand year old set of footprints. But

999
00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:48.239
<v Speaker 2>having seen things like it, it is sort of eerie,

1000
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:52.519
<v Speaker 2>right to literally see the footprints of someone twenty thousand

1001
00:59:52.599 --> 00:59:54.679
<v Speaker 2>years dead, you know it sort of SAIDs a shiver

1002
00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:57.440
<v Speaker 2>down your spine. I'd. One of the things that I

1003
00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:01.119
<v Speaker 2>notice is not at all an archaeology, just as someone

1004
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:06.840
<v Speaker 2>interested in this, has been the proliferation of light ar technology, right,

1005
01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:10.920
<v Speaker 2>this kind of satellite imaging which has enabled us to find,

1006
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:14.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, a lot of previously undiscovered sites. So again,

1007
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I didn't ask you to prepare for this. I don't

1008
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:18.920
<v Speaker 2>know if you know anything about this. I'm just interested

1009
01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:22.920
<v Speaker 2>in it, Thomas. But have we seen any major developments

1010
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:26.039
<v Speaker 2>from that, right, the ability to find previously hidden sites?

1011
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:31.199
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely? So the famous ones, well, I think the two

1012
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:33.679
<v Speaker 1>pyramids that they found in Chocolate Canyon were found by

1013
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.159
<v Speaker 1>lad Or if I am correct, I could be wrong,

1014
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:38.719
<v Speaker 1>because I'm not a lie to our expert. But I

1015
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:42.719
<v Speaker 1>also really enjoy looking at the images and kind of

1016
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:45.639
<v Speaker 1>reading what people are discovering. So the big ones are

1017
01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:50.320
<v Speaker 1>to go to the jungles of Central and now South

1018
01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:52.800
<v Speaker 1>America and kind of poining the laser down and seeing

1019
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:55.679
<v Speaker 1>if those are hills or if those are man made structures,

1020
01:00:55.719 --> 01:00:58.840
<v Speaker 1>and almost always it's a man made structure, and there

1021
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:01.920
<v Speaker 1>are multiple ones around it. I think I did my

1022
01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:05.719
<v Speaker 1>archaeological dig in Belize back in two thousand and eight.

1023
01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:08.119
<v Speaker 1>It was a lot of fun. I got malaria. Other

1024
01:01:08.199 --> 01:01:11.360
<v Speaker 1>than that, it was a lot of fun. And it's

1025
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:15.400
<v Speaker 1>very flat, like surprisingly flat, and it's all limestone, and

1026
01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:18.039
<v Speaker 1>a lot of times that limestones will cave in. And

1027
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:20.840
<v Speaker 1>then you've got a sinote like a circle, really cool,

1028
01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:24.360
<v Speaker 1>very deep pond without a bank. It's just like you're

1029
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:27.159
<v Speaker 1>just looking down into the depths of the water. But

1030
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:31.000
<v Speaker 1>it's very flat, and maybe it's rolling sometimes. So if

1031
01:01:31.079 --> 01:01:34.320
<v Speaker 1>there's like a hill in front of you, that's where

1032
01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:36.559
<v Speaker 1>archaeologists went there. I got to take a shovel and

1033
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:38.280
<v Speaker 1>you just start digging until you hit rock and then

1034
01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.679
<v Speaker 1>that's pretty much it. That's how it used to be. Dumb.

1035
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:43.440
<v Speaker 1>And now you can focus these lasers. I guess they're

1036
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:45.880
<v Speaker 1>in space. I actually don't even know. I guess you

1037
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:47.199
<v Speaker 1>can put them on actually you know, you can put

1038
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:49.880
<v Speaker 1>them on drones. So you got these lasers and you

1039
01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:53.519
<v Speaker 1>just shoot them down and just just every day they're

1040
01:01:53.559 --> 01:01:57.760
<v Speaker 1>finding more and more structures, more and more cities that

1041
01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:01.639
<v Speaker 1>are lost in the was On. That was a big

1042
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:03.559
<v Speaker 1>news a couple of years ago, when they just were like, well,

1043
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:05.840
<v Speaker 1>let's let's check and see if there's anything over here

1044
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:07.920
<v Speaker 1>in the Amazon, and of course there were like thousands

1045
01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:10.079
<v Speaker 1>of structures. So I think they're going to send out

1046
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:13.239
<v Speaker 1>archaeologists to go hopefully look at that. And now they're

1047
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:16.960
<v Speaker 1>using it to great effect. In the East, they're not jungles,

1048
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:19.000
<v Speaker 1>but you live in the East. I grew up in

1049
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:22.400
<v Speaker 1>northern Georgia. It's almost like a jungle sometimes. And so

1050
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:25.039
<v Speaker 1>through these in these forested areas in the East now

1051
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:27.960
<v Speaker 1>and even in the south they are like the south

1052
01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:31.199
<v Speaker 1>and southeast and Louisiana area, and they're pointing these lasers

1053
01:02:31.199 --> 01:02:33.760
<v Speaker 1>down over there and finding there are way more mounds

1054
01:02:33.800 --> 01:02:37.880
<v Speaker 1>than we have mapped right now, walls, effigy mounds like

1055
01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:42.320
<v Speaker 1>snakes or birds and stone and then they would cover

1056
01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:44.599
<v Speaker 1>it up. Well maybe they didn't, but over time it

1057
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:46.920
<v Speaker 1>got covered up and now it's just a mound, a hill,

1058
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.199
<v Speaker 1>a little thing in the which you step on and over,

1059
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.599
<v Speaker 1>and now we're finding out, oh that's a that's a bird.

1060
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:54.400
<v Speaker 1>But they laid stones on the ground to look like

1061
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:57.159
<v Speaker 1>or a snake, or here's a wall that we didn't

1062
01:02:57.199 --> 01:02:59.760
<v Speaker 1>know or are we just assuming it was natural or

1063
01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:03.599
<v Speaker 1>who knew it was even there? And so that's a

1064
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:07.199
<v Speaker 1>I think linear is extremely fascinating. I would love to

1065
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:09.639
<v Speaker 1>get my hands on some and just go out here.

1066
01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:12.440
<v Speaker 1>There's a peblo, there's an eight hundred year old pueblo

1067
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:14.719
<v Speaker 1>at the base of my mountain. I don't know, there's

1068
01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:16.920
<v Speaker 1>no water. I don't know what they were doing, but so,

1069
01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:18.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean there's got to be stuff up here too.

1070
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:23.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the stuff in the jungle is honestly really fascinating

1071
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:27.280
<v Speaker 2>to me. There's I can't remember the exact title. It's

1072
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:36.400
<v Speaker 2>an early seventies movie, Werner Hertzog. I think it's something

1073
01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:37.559
<v Speaker 2>the Wrath of God.

1074
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:41.199
<v Speaker 1>Right point was that crazy guy with the long hairs.

1075
01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you've seen images from it, and it's sort of chronicling.

1076
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:49.599
<v Speaker 2>Of course, this doomed Spanish expedition through the jungle weird conceptual.

1077
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everyone, but the visuals are striking.

1078
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:57.280
<v Speaker 2>But point is right. That's what I think has been

1079
01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:02.760
<v Speaker 2>really interesting about a lot of developments in recent history

1080
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:07.519
<v Speaker 2>is that we're and honestly, the you know, the mancorn examples.

1081
01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:10.400
<v Speaker 2>Another great one is that we have now reached a

1082
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:14.320
<v Speaker 2>certain technological level to confirm a lot of the cool

1083
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:17.719
<v Speaker 2>old stories that were dismissed as wives tales, you know,

1084
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:21.679
<v Speaker 2>massive cities in the jungle or your cannibalism, your pyramids

1085
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:23.760
<v Speaker 2>in the desert. For a while, it was like, oh,

1086
01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.440
<v Speaker 2>all that cool stuff, it's fake, you know, the real

1087
01:04:26.639 --> 01:04:30.000
<v Speaker 2>science is just everything's boring and gay. And it's like, oh, well,

1088
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:32.280
<v Speaker 2>now we have space lasers and it turns out it's

1089
01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:36.679
<v Speaker 2>all true. And I realize I'm massively oversimplifying it. But

1090
01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:39.360
<v Speaker 2>it is a much more exciting world to live in, right.

1091
01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:41.840
<v Speaker 2>It's a sense of adventure, you know, instead of just

1092
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:48.280
<v Speaker 2>the kind of like cold drismy, cold dismal science of

1093
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:52.199
<v Speaker 2>previously presented. I don't know. I think it makes the

1094
01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:53.320
<v Speaker 2>world more fun to be in.

1095
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I could not agree more. It's almost like once

1096
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:03.480
<v Speaker 1>we I guess, once some people decided that history is

1097
01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:06.519
<v Speaker 1>not over and we have not found everything, and some

1098
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:09.239
<v Speaker 1>sort of excitement and adventure got into them, and so

1099
01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.280
<v Speaker 1>they started asking questions that used to be don't bother

1100
01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:15.039
<v Speaker 1>asking it, because you're not gonna get funding. Nobody cares

1101
01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:18.039
<v Speaker 1>about the answer, we all know it's not real. Recently,

1102
01:05:18.119 --> 01:05:21.599
<v Speaker 1>it seems like, especially with people who aren't in the field,

1103
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:24.199
<v Speaker 1>like I can do whatever I want and say whatever

1104
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:26.599
<v Speaker 1>I want because I'm not going to be punished academically,

1105
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:28.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to lose a job. And I think

1106
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:31.679
<v Speaker 1>that's part of it. But also maybe the mindset is changing,

1107
01:05:31.719 --> 01:05:34.400
<v Speaker 1>like there is stuff out there left to be discovered

1108
01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:37.360
<v Speaker 1>and explored, and I don't know, maybe we can find

1109
01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:43.800
<v Speaker 1>new curses, new treasures. I don't new. Yeah, it's very

1110
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:47.320
<v Speaker 1>exciting and I don't think it's going to slow down

1111
01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:49.800
<v Speaker 1>anytime soon. I think it's just going to pick up

1112
01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:53.440
<v Speaker 1>with more and more that we're uncovering and finding and

1113
01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 1>it's just gonna make again, it's gonna make life more exciting.

1114
01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:00.719
<v Speaker 1>I should start writing dime novels, honestly, Yeah, I.

1115
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Mean genuinely, the uh and I think it. I was

1116
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:09.400
<v Speaker 2>just talking about this with a friend of mine, because

1117
01:06:10.119 --> 01:06:13.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, we were I went to my mom's place,

1118
01:06:13.320 --> 01:06:14.960
<v Speaker 2>got a lot of the books that I had as

1119
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:17.719
<v Speaker 2>a kid, you know, that been boxed up, and you know,

1120
01:06:17.719 --> 01:06:20.519
<v Speaker 2>I learned to read off the old you know, nineteen

1121
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:25.159
<v Speaker 2>thirties serialized ten tin comics, right, and it very much

1122
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:28.519
<v Speaker 2>exists in that world of nineteen thirties pulp, you know,

1123
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:31.320
<v Speaker 2>where the different countries are very different. You go across

1124
01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:34.719
<v Speaker 2>the world and you see men, you know, wearing their costumes.

1125
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:36.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, it feels as if you're going to a

1126
01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:40.719
<v Speaker 2>different culture and it's incredibly exciting. And to that point

1127
01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:43.000
<v Speaker 2>about discovering that spirit of adventure, I think there's a

1128
01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:46.159
<v Speaker 2>part in every man's brain. It's like, you know, what

1129
01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:48.800
<v Speaker 2>if I get crushed by a boulder in a tomb

1130
01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.599
<v Speaker 2>in the middle of the South American jungle, not a

1131
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.880
<v Speaker 2>bad way to go, right, there's parfew that just that

1132
01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:57.599
<v Speaker 2>wants to do it. And I think another element, if

1133
01:06:57.639 --> 01:07:00.840
<v Speaker 2>you can forgive some chin scratching here, is that, you know,

1134
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:03.159
<v Speaker 2>one of the real advantages to the Internet is it

1135
01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:08.239
<v Speaker 2>has allowed people to monetize being interesting. And so if

1136
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:11.920
<v Speaker 2>you're able to make history interesting, the pinnacle of your

1137
01:07:11.960 --> 01:07:16.239
<v Speaker 2>career isn't you know, lecturing at a regional state school anymore.

1138
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.280
<v Speaker 2>You can just go out and be entertaining. You know,

1139
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:25.280
<v Speaker 2>you can actually push forward right knowledge, it's fun, it's

1140
01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:29.559
<v Speaker 2>it's genuinely a very interesting space to look at it.

1141
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.119
<v Speaker 2>And I am not a historian. I don't pretend to

1142
01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:35.320
<v Speaker 2>know very much about history, but there are half a

1143
01:07:35.360 --> 01:07:39.440
<v Speaker 2>dozen people, yourself included, that provide very very high quality

1144
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:43.679
<v Speaker 2>historical content to normal people right who don't necessarily have

1145
01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:46.760
<v Speaker 2>the time or inclination to dig through you know, mountains

1146
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:50.719
<v Speaker 2>of research. And speaking of that, Thomas, where can people

1147
01:07:50.719 --> 01:07:51.119
<v Speaker 2>find you?

1148
01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:55.159
<v Speaker 1>The Americansouthwest dot com and everyway.

1149
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:59.599
<v Speaker 2>In addition to your you know, to your historical content,

1150
01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 2>there's also a section on that website for recipes, and

1151
01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:06.159
<v Speaker 2>I want to know, Thomas, I've been using your margarita

1152
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:09.360
<v Speaker 2>recipe since the last time we talked, the only one

1153
01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:11.800
<v Speaker 2>you were going to do it, but it's pretty good.

1154
01:08:12.719 --> 01:08:15.920
<v Speaker 2>So if you're looking for a halfway decent margarita recipe,

1155
01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it some

1156
01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:21.720
<v Speaker 2>historical content. Be sure to check out Thomas's stuff. I'll

1157
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:24.239
<v Speaker 2>have all his links down in the description. Thank you,

1158
01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:28.039
<v Speaker 2>this have you, Thomas, and everyone knows, keep your head up.

1159
01:08:28.119 --> 01:08:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Good night,