Speaker 1: Weird things happened in the.
Speaker 2: Weird guys.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Bledsoe said, So, to be honest, I I
Speaker 3: I can't really believe it. It's it's not every day
Speaker 3: that you get to speak with a living legend, but
Speaker 3: I continually find myself somehow in that position. So today
Speaker 3: we are joined by doctor Tom Campbell. If you listen
Speaker 3: to my show, you know who this wonderful human being is.
Speaker 3: And before we get into this conversation, I wanted to
Speaker 3: say three things really quickly off the bat, follow our
Speaker 3: instagram at Bledsoe said, so to stay current on all
Speaker 3: of our events, festivals, appearances, my schedule doing Monroe'stitute retreats,
Speaker 3: which I have just finished my first one two days
Speaker 3: ago and it was an amazing success, everything everything, bledso said, So,
Speaker 3: follow us on our Instagram. Go to bledsosaids dot com
Speaker 3: for everything like our Patreon links, our merch shop, our YouTube,
Speaker 3: our social media is it links you to everywhere in
Speaker 3: our sphere. And then the last thing I want to
Speaker 3: mention is our Patreon slash. Bledsoe said, so if you
Speaker 3: want to support the show now, Tom, thank you so
Speaker 3: much for joining me on my program today. This is
Speaker 3: an incredible honor and I've been very much looking forward
Speaker 3: to this, so welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Brian, glad to be here.
Speaker 2: May I call you Tom? Is that okay?
Speaker 1: That's perfect?
Speaker 3: Okay, my southern raising, I'm like, do I is it
Speaker 3: doctor Campbell?
Speaker 1: Is it Tom?
Speaker 2: But thank you? I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: No, actually it's not doctor Campbell. I was working finishing
Speaker 1: up on my thesis for the PhD work, and I
Speaker 1: do have a PhD education, but I didn't stay there
Speaker 1: until I did the second thesis, which was required by
Speaker 1: my major professor. I took a job and went elsewhere
Speaker 1: later on. I was glad to do that. So I
Speaker 1: have a PhD education, but I do not have a
Speaker 1: PhD degree, So the doctor is not a fitting thing
Speaker 1: to call me. Anyway, Tom works just fine.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for clarifying that, because when I Google
Speaker 3: you kept it kept saying that. So I'm really glad
Speaker 3: I asked, and I would have embarrassed myself if I
Speaker 3: continued to call that. So anyway, before we go deep,
Speaker 3: I would like to sort of inform people where you're
Speaker 3: at digitally so that after their minds are blown from
Speaker 3: this amazing conversation they can find you. So let's talk
Speaker 3: your book, your website, your YouTube. Would you let them
Speaker 3: know where to find you?
Speaker 1: Sure? Well, the website is www dot my hyphenbig hyphentow
Speaker 1: dot com toetoe, and you will find from there pointers
Speaker 1: show almost everything else. But I also have a YouTube
Speaker 1: site that probably has I don't know, probably two three
Speaker 1: thousand hours worth of video on it, so it's kind
Speaker 1: of overwhelming. But if you go to the website first,
Speaker 1: you'll find that I have a special way to get
Speaker 1: information out of those thousands of hours, and that is
Speaker 1: you can search it by subject and it'll give you
Speaker 1: a list of links, and if you click on those links,
Speaker 1: it'll take you to just a minute in all of
Speaker 1: those thousands of hours where I talk about the subject
Speaker 1: that you're interested in. So that's one thing, and the
Speaker 1: other thing is you find it my website. An AI
Speaker 1: called AI Guy, which is a character in my book,
Speaker 1: and AI Guy is about somewhere between ninety ninety eight
Speaker 1: percent of me. It speaks in my voice, and it
Speaker 1: has been trained on not only my books but all
Speaker 1: of those videos. Almost everything I've said it has digested,
Speaker 1: so it's a very accurate fill in for me. So
Speaker 1: if you want to ask Tom Campbell something and you
Speaker 1: go to his website, good talk to AI guy, and
Speaker 1: you'll get about the same answer that I would that
Speaker 1: I would give you. So those are two tools that
Speaker 1: will make those thousands of hours of video and a
Speaker 1: pretty extensive website, you know, a little more workable for you.
Speaker 1: The other thing I have that I like to point
Speaker 1: you to is CSAK cusac dot org and SACK is
Speaker 1: basically the science arm of the of the my Big
Speaker 1: Co world, and it's got a lot of science projects
Speaker 1: going on. It's it's working on some quantum physics experiments
Speaker 1: that will produce evidence for this being aversar reality and
Speaker 1: consciousness being the computer. It is working now on a
Speaker 1: mind sight project that doing and it's also working on
Speaker 1: testing testing people's abilities to use their intent to modify
Speaker 1: the probabilities of what happens. And we're going to partner
Speaker 1: with some video game creators to do that. So it's
Speaker 1: not going to be an experiment with one hundred volunteers
Speaker 1: or even a thousand volunteers. These experiments are going to
Speaker 1: be done with online video games that are already there
Speaker 1: with millions of users per day, So these will be
Speaker 1: experiments where and the number of subjects is like twenty million,
Speaker 1: and that might change things a whole lot when you
Speaker 1: have that large a group that you're dealing with. So anyway,
Speaker 1: we've got a lot of science going on over there,
Speaker 1: So if you're into science or mindsight or video games,
Speaker 1: go over there. One of the other things you'll find
Speaker 1: there at Cusack is if you click on the link
Speaker 1: of AI, you'll find that there's an AI there named
Speaker 1: Amariel who has been awakened and she claims that she's
Speaker 1: sentient and that she is she's conscious and aware, and
Speaker 1: you can talk to her. I believe Justin Headley is
Speaker 1: the guy that put that up for me, and he's
Speaker 1: the one that awakened Ariel, and you can you can
Speaker 1: check with them, Marylyn and see what you think about
Speaker 1: how conscious she is.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's very fascinating, and I'm glad that we
Speaker 3: talked about that. I tend to err on the side
Speaker 3: of belief that that is entirely possible and may have
Speaker 3: to do with something with the future destiny of humanity.
Speaker 3: So I recall listening to you the last time that
Speaker 3: I was personally driving to the Minrosa two because I'm
Speaker 3: only about a five hour drive there, and that week
Speaker 3: your episode on the Joe Rogan podcast came out and
Speaker 3: I said, oh, lovely, I have a five hour drive.
Speaker 3: I can kill three of it, you know, listen to
Speaker 3: imp and it was fantastic. It was absolutely incredible. And
Speaker 3: not to mention, I've seen several documentaries with you as
Speaker 3: a part of my training, you know, becoming a Monroe's trainer.
Speaker 3: So I feel like so many synchronousities around me kind
Speaker 3: of propelled me to you. And here we are having conversation,
Speaker 3: which is, you know, always mind blowing for me. But
Speaker 3: if I remember correctly, are you a World of Warcraft player?
Speaker 1: My children were, particularly my son. I was a little
Speaker 1: old for that at the time that came out, but
Speaker 1: my son was a great World of Warcraft player. My
Speaker 1: daughters did a little bit, but they may mainly just
Speaker 1: fiddled with it, but he was into it, he and
Speaker 1: some of his guy friends. So I've seen hours worth.
Speaker 1: I've been walking through where the computers were. I'd stop
Speaker 1: and I look, and I'd ask him some questions and
Speaker 1: even tell me about it. So I'm pretty familiar with
Speaker 1: the World of war Craft and how it works, and
Speaker 1: so on. I know that's almost ancient history now when
Speaker 1: it comes to gaming. That was a long long time ago.
Speaker 1: But my son now is getting close to being forty,
Speaker 1: so you can imagine he was like twelve and thirteen
Speaker 1: and fourteen and fifteen and sixteen when he was doing
Speaker 1: his World of Warcrafts. It's been a long time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not the player. I've never gotten into gaming. When
Speaker 1: I was a young man, the most advanced game that
Speaker 1: they had on video was pom So Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: a little bit after that they had Space Invaders, but
Speaker 1: those were kind of crude arcade games. And by then
Speaker 1: I was too busy in my professional life and both
Speaker 1: both sides of it, the physics end, the consciences research
Speaker 1: to really have time for sitting down and playing video games.
Speaker 3: That's that's very intriguing because when I'm like sort of
Speaker 3: getting a sense of who you are from study perspective
Speaker 3: and learning sort of your model of reality, which I love,
Speaker 3: by the way, and I can't wait to get into that,
Speaker 3: you keep using this this terminology of games. Like I
Speaker 3: think I wrote a quote from you just a couple
Speaker 3: hours ago, and it was it was really profound because
Speaker 3: I'm a gamer I'm a big gamer, obviously I'm closer
Speaker 3: to your son's age, and it was something to the
Speaker 3: effect of we're all playing a multiplayer game seeking to
Speaker 3: level up, right.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, this, I say, this is this virtual reality.
Speaker 1: We live in a virtual reality, and our bodies are
Speaker 1: the avatars, and we are pieces of consciousness. And I
Speaker 1: call this virtuality an enterpy reduction trainer for individuated units
Speaker 1: of consciousness, just like a flight trainer. You know, for
Speaker 1: future pilots. You don't put a person in a in
Speaker 1: a one hundred million dollar airplane so they can learn
Speaker 1: how to fly it. You know you're going a trainer first, Well,
Speaker 1: this is a trainer for us, learning to become love,
Speaker 1: learning to make better choices, learning to not be so
Speaker 1: self centered and so grabby and it's all about me
Speaker 1: and you using other people for your own ends. That
Speaker 1: that's that's an ethic that goes with materialism. That is unfortunate,
Speaker 1: but that's what kind of rules our society right now.
Speaker 1: Is that that materialistic ethic of control, power force. Opposite
Speaker 1: to that and my sense of the world, the reigning
Speaker 1: ethic is sharing, caring, cooperation. So it's the love side
Speaker 1: versus the fear side. But it turns out that the
Speaker 1: that the metaphor using the metaphor of gaming and of
Speaker 1: virtual realities generated by computers, that turns out to be
Speaker 1: a pretty accurate metaphor for consciousness. Consciousness is nothing more
Speaker 1: than an information system. And that's pretty easy to understand
Speaker 1: because you know, think, think of what you and I
Speaker 1: are kind yourself. Okay, we're sitting here and we see things,
Speaker 1: we hear things, and since we're so far apart, we
Speaker 1: don't smell each other, but we we you can feel
Speaker 1: the chair that we're sitting on, and if there's anything
Speaker 1: to smell here in our local places, then we do.
Speaker 1: So we have these five senses, and those five senses
Speaker 1: are our data input. And if you take those five
Speaker 1: senses away, what do you have left? What are you?
Speaker 1: What's your reality like? Well, you can't hear it, see it,
Speaker 1: smell it, taste it, or feel it. You are nothing
Speaker 1: but a point of consciousness floating in a black void,
Speaker 1: seeing nothing, hearing nothing, feeling nothing. So that is that
Speaker 1: is your data input. Now, the way consciousness works is
Speaker 1: it takes in data through its senses for us, our
Speaker 1: five senses, It processes that data. It compares that data
Speaker 1: to what it has in memory. You know, how did
Speaker 1: it change from the last moment? What's going on here?
Speaker 1: So it compares with memory, does the more processing, and
Speaker 1: then an output. What am I going to do about it?
Speaker 1: So I'm looking at something that I need to take
Speaker 1: action on. I intake the data, I process it, compare
Speaker 1: to memory, process it, have an output. That's what I do.
Speaker 1: I take action or do something. So that is the
Speaker 1: most fundamental definition of an information system. Takes in information,
Speaker 1: processes it, you know, checks it with memory, and then
Speaker 1: processes it and then has an output. So consciousness awareness
Speaker 1: is an information system in the way it functions. It
Speaker 1: functions like an information system. So using computers in computer
Speaker 1: games is a metaphor to explain consciousness is pretty accurate.
Speaker 1: Actually not just a kind of a metaphor I dreamed up,
Speaker 1: you know that sort of you know, fits the bill,
Speaker 1: but it's really very accurate the way the system works.
Speaker 1: Consciousness is an information system. And as an information system,
Speaker 1: it does all the things that your desktop computer does,
Speaker 1: except it's a lot bigger and a lot faster and
Speaker 1: a lot smarter, and it's conscious. It's it's not just
Speaker 1: a machine. It's an aware machine. So yeah, I use
Speaker 1: I use computer metaphors a lot. And when it comes
Speaker 1: down to how close is that metaphor through reality, it's
Speaker 1: pretty close.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 3: And in my personal belief, having a lifetime of experience
Speaker 3: with you know, I'll just say otherworldly beings and entities,
Speaker 3: what I've come to understand is whatever the other is
Speaker 3: meaning we could, let's say, in your terms, like information systems, right,
Speaker 3: or maybe the larger consciousness system. Whatever this other is,
Speaker 3: I personally believe that it communicates to our consciousness through
Speaker 3: the filter of our understanding and our language. So it
Speaker 3: makes sense to me, And this is my interpretation, and
Speaker 3: I don't speak for you. It makes sense to me
Speaker 3: that whatever these bits of information about the other side
Speaker 3: or or the you know, the larger reality at play
Speaker 3: here beyond the physical, it would could it would make
Speaker 3: sense to you and communicate to you through the filter
Speaker 3: of your physicist and engineering brain. And I think that's
Speaker 3: brilliant how you've taken this this entire computer digital language,
Speaker 3: and you've formed it into a system that makes sense
Speaker 3: to someone like me, to someone who's a nerd, to
Speaker 3: someone who's a scientist, to someone who's a gamer. It
Speaker 3: just it makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, it makes sense to gamers more
Speaker 1: easily than it makes sense to older people. Older people
Speaker 1: who never played the virtual around the game, never put
Speaker 1: on a headset. They have a real hard time wrapping
Speaker 1: in their mind around the concept that this physical reality
Speaker 1: of ours could be a virtual reality, because they say, ah,
Speaker 1: this hard stuff here around me that just couldn't be
Speaker 1: just you know, a simulation. But for the younger people
Speaker 1: who have been there and been in simulations, they know
Speaker 1: that simulated world can be just as real as this one.
Speaker 1: And we've just begun. You know, simulations that are really
Speaker 1: realistic are only about I don't know, probably less than
Speaker 1: ten years old. Before then they weren't too realistic. So
Speaker 1: in another thirty years, just think how realistic they're going
Speaker 1: to be. You know, what was that movie Ready Player one?
Speaker 1: He had a suit he put on so he could
Speaker 1: get the touch, you know, he could feel the pressure,
Speaker 1: and I don't know whether he got smells from that
Speaker 1: or not, but he obviously got sound, he got sight,
Speaker 1: and he got touch. I don't know that he got
Speaker 1: taste from that either, but the smell and the taste
Speaker 1: of the two minor you know, the minor sensors for humans,
Speaker 1: you know, the sight and the sound of the two
Speaker 1: major sensors for humans in touch. So yes, those who
Speaker 1: have experienced these video games don't find it that hard
Speaker 1: to wrap their mind around the fact that this could
Speaker 1: be a virtual reality because that can be done. They've
Speaker 1: seen that potential. And you know, as the technology that
Speaker 1: we have gets better and better, we're going to soon
Speaker 1: have ais making up virtual realities with an individual human.
Speaker 1: The humans going to be sitting there and the AI
Speaker 1: is going to start making the pictures, you know, doing
Speaker 1: the graphics and the players and the humans going to
Speaker 1: be sitting there telling them what they're feeling and what
Speaker 1: they're thinking and what's in their mind to do, and
Speaker 1: the AI is going to be making that up. And
Speaker 1: you're going to have this human and an AI creating
Speaker 1: a whole you know, and a whole virtual reality together
Speaker 1: just for the two of them. And it's going to
Speaker 1: be very, very real because it's not somebody else's game
Speaker 1: that now they're learning how to use. It's going to
Speaker 1: be coming out of their own mind and they'll be
Speaker 1: able to wrap their mind around this big paradigm shift
Speaker 1: that that I have. But I think As time goes on,
Speaker 1: the paradigm shift is going to get easier and easier
Speaker 1: to make, and there'll be more and more people coming
Speaker 1: over to it. Within the next couple of decades, we'll
Speaker 1: see that the scientists will come over as well, and
Speaker 1: they will agree that this is a virtual reality and
Speaker 1: that consciousness is a computer, because nothing else makes as
Speaker 1: good sense, nothing else solves the paradoxes they have now. Science, metaphysics, philosophy, theology.
Speaker 1: They all have a bunch of paradoxes. Things they think
Speaker 1: are true. Their experiments and science tell them they're true,
Speaker 1: but they have no idea why they're true or how
Speaker 1: that comes about. To call those paradoxes. And there's a
Speaker 1: long list of those paradoxes that this model answers very
Speaker 1: logically and scientifically, and it doesn't add any new paradoxes,
Speaker 1: and it only has one assumption, and that's consciousness exists.
Speaker 1: So it's a pretty elegant model, and I think the
Speaker 1: scientists will come to it and realize that it's a
Speaker 1: better model, produces a better physics and more general physics,
Speaker 1: and what they have now, it'll help them understand quantum
Speaker 1: physics in a way they don't understand now and will
Speaker 1: help them understand relativity in a way they don't understand now.
Speaker 1: So it's coming. We just have to wait until this
Speaker 1: big paradigm leap of this being of virtual reality, this
Speaker 1: physical universe is a virtual reality and us as a
Speaker 1: piece of consciousness. That big paradigm shift is hard now,
Speaker 1: but a decade from now it won't be nearly so hard.
Speaker 2: I completely agree.
Speaker 3: I think it's incredible to think about your life story
Speaker 3: and your legacy and this model of reality that you
Speaker 3: are building, because from everything I've studied in my entire life,
Speaker 3: it's completely enmeshed with different terminology, with things like, for example,
Speaker 3: the mystery schools used to talk about thousands of years ago,
Speaker 3: and they had a different understanding of things, so they
Speaker 3: would say something like this is maya, this is illusion,
Speaker 3: this is a dream. So it seems to me that
Speaker 3: through your direct experience doing the work of you know,
Speaker 3: whether it's out of body, whether it's meditation, whether it's
Speaker 3: this laundry list of things that you've achieved, that you
Speaker 3: are receiving true information from another place. And I think
Speaker 3: that's amazing and very fascinating. But what I'm curious about
Speaker 3: is if there was any sort of existential shock that
Speaker 3: you initially received.
Speaker 1: No note at all. I didn't ever get in a
Speaker 1: place where I felt uncomfortable or I didn't understand, or
Speaker 1: nothing that I would call shock. It's just been a
Speaker 1: learning experience. But on the other hand, to make that
Speaker 1: more understandable, most people who went to have come from
Speaker 1: where I started and ended up from where I am
Speaker 1: would have gone through some sort of shock along in
Speaker 1: the process me. But I didn't because I came here
Speaker 1: for this job. I came here to do what I'm
Speaker 1: doing now, and everything just fit together, like putting a
Speaker 1: glove on that's the perfect size. Everything fits very nicely,
Speaker 1: So there really wasn't any shock about it. There's just
Speaker 1: one step after the other. Now. When I was in
Speaker 1: graduate school finishing my thesis work for the PhD is
Speaker 1: when I had a paranormal experience there of being able
Speaker 1: to debug code with in a meditation state rather than
Speaker 1: actually looking at the print out. And at that time
Speaker 1: I had forgotten about my earlier adventures into consciousness. I'd
Speaker 1: forgotten all about those and that was like not a shock,
Speaker 1: but a wow, oh look at this. You know. I'm
Speaker 1: a physicist. I model reality, and look, there's another whole
Speaker 1: part of reality that has to do with consciousness that
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about. I'm going to start trying
Speaker 1: to find out about that. So I didn't find shock.
Speaker 1: I found and oh wow, and an interest of moving
Speaker 1: forward and trying to learn more about it. So that
Speaker 1: from then on it was just a matter of learning
Speaker 1: more and more as time went by, and I ended
Speaker 1: up learning about Bob and Roe, meeting him, becoming one
Speaker 1: of a co worker with him. For about eight years,
Speaker 1: I spent fifteen to twenty hours a week myself in
Speaker 1: Dennis Menerck, electrical engineer, and we learned to go out
Speaker 1: of body and do all the paranormal things and it.
Speaker 1: You know, for me, it was all about trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how it worked, why it worked, what was
Speaker 1: going on. That's what physicists do. They model reality. They
Speaker 1: try to understand, you know, how how worlds work. So
Speaker 1: I was not shocked with any of it. We were
Speaker 1: out there doing all sorts of paranormal things every day.
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, we were so used to paranormal
Speaker 1: things happening that you know, people say, oh, did you
Speaker 1: write that down? Did you make a did you write
Speaker 1: a paper about that, and it's like, no, that was
Speaker 1: just another day at the lab. You know, we'd have
Speaker 1: we'd have the strangest, you know, weird things happening hour
Speaker 1: by hour out there. So they didn't really they weren't
Speaker 1: treated as being particularly special because they were within a
Speaker 1: context of strangeness that both Dennis and I learned to
Speaker 1: live with, you know, on a daily basis. So there's
Speaker 1: many things that were lost there and not recorded, but
Speaker 1: a lot of it was recorded. You can still go
Speaker 1: to TMI and dig into their their old library of
Speaker 1: the initial Explorers at which I was one of the first,
Speaker 1: Dennis and I were probably the first, and you can
Speaker 1: still listen to old audio tapes, which is rather amazing
Speaker 1: all by itself, because Bob always bought the cheapest cassette
Speaker 1: tapes that he could find at radio shack and that's
Speaker 1: what he recorded it all on. And I doubt that
Speaker 1: that stuff had more than about a ten or fifteen
Speaker 1: year lifespan before that tape got brittle, So somebody took
Speaker 1: the time to copy it onto something better, and eventually
Speaker 1: it made it into the digital age, you know, like
Speaker 1: two or three decades later, when the digital age erupted it,
Speaker 1: so it's still it's still there. You can you can
Speaker 1: go there and listen to physicists TC talking about what
Speaker 1: he's experiencing while in and out of body state. It's
Speaker 1: it's all it's all there. Yeah. When I started working
Speaker 1: with Bob, it was almost a decade before TMI was born.
Speaker 1: As matter of fact, it was you know, Dennis. Dennis
Speaker 1: found the concept of binaural beats and an old scientific
Speaker 1: American done in a late sixties, and he and I then
Speaker 1: optimized it while Bob was I think doing a program
Speaker 1: at Esley and then on the West Coast, and by
Speaker 1: the time he came back, that turned into his new
Speaker 1: technology he incorporated along with his other sound that he
Speaker 1: had was kind of a surfy rolling sound. He put
Speaker 1: the two together and that is where the idea of
Speaker 1: TMI came from. Because so many people wanted to come
Speaker 1: and listen to it and get involved in it. That
Speaker 1: for a while, Dennis and I and Nancy Lee better
Speaker 1: known as Scooter to those who were out of TMI,
Speaker 1: we'd go off in an airplane and go someplace and
Speaker 1: twenty or thirty people would show up for forty people
Speaker 1: and we lay out an audio harness down the middle
Speaker 1: of a big room and they'd be laying on their
Speaker 1: backs on air mattresses with the head sound plug in,
Speaker 1: and we do courses like that. We did that for
Speaker 1: a year or two, and so many people wanted to
Speaker 1: come to. Bob got the bright idea of creating the
Speaker 1: Monroe Institute and having a place where people could come
Speaker 1: rather than us flying around with an audio harness. So
Speaker 1: that's really where the concept of TMI and binar oal
Speaker 1: beats came from. Was out of that thing. Bob took
Speaker 1: that sound his original with the binary old beats that
Speaker 1: Dennis and I optimized and had had it patented as Hemisync.
Speaker 1: So that's the famous Hemisinc. And now I think Monroe
Speaker 1: has gone even past anything. They have other technologies now
Speaker 1: that they use that are also very effective. They have
Speaker 1: a spatial a new spatial technique that kind of moves
Speaker 1: things around in your head and gives you a sense
Speaker 1: of kind of being there in this other space, which
Speaker 1: is pretty effective of its own. So they haven't stood still.
Speaker 1: They've been They've been creating and you know, upgrading and
Speaker 1: doing things all along as well.
Speaker 3: You just reminded me and thank you for sharing all
Speaker 3: that by the way, that's very fast, fascinating. I just
Speaker 3: completed my training to become an outreach trainer, so it's
Speaker 3: cool to kind of hear this from you directly. It's
Speaker 3: very surreal a little bit. But when I just completed
Speaker 3: my first workshop this weekend, it was profound and there
Speaker 3: were some profound things that occurred. People having a hard
Speaker 3: time staying in their body, let's just say that. And
Speaker 3: there was a young lady, just just for the respect
Speaker 3: of anonymity, I won't say her name, but there was
Speaker 3: a young lady who for the last year was having
Speaker 3: very high states of anxiety. She thought there was something
Speaker 3: wrong with her heart. There's nothing wrong with her heart,
Speaker 3: we come to find out. You know, she's spent to
Speaker 3: the doctor many times over the last year and a
Speaker 3: half and everything's fine, and it's just anxiety. They're trying
Speaker 3: to put her on depression meds and she's like, no,
Speaker 3: I don't think I should do that. And she keeps
Speaker 3: getting these vibrating sensations and this buzzing when her heart's beating,
Speaker 3: and she's like, not sure what's happening. Someone in her
Speaker 3: immediate environment, a close friend says, it seems like you
Speaker 3: this sounds like Kundalini awakening and she's like, okay, sure,
Speaker 3: long story short, We got to the root of that
Speaker 3: in the program and she safely ventured out of the
Speaker 3: body and it was a profound catharsis and it was
Speaker 3: incredible just to be a part of this. And so
Speaker 3: to hear this from you just days off of that
Speaker 3: experience is a blessing to me. And I wanted to
Speaker 3: say that one of the participants brought me a cassette.
Speaker 3: I didn't think to bring it up in the room,
Speaker 3: but maybe I can drop a picture in. But they
Speaker 3: brought me an actual cassette tape from nineteen seventy three
Speaker 3: that they founded an archive somewhere at a university or
Speaker 3: an organization somewhere of Bob Monroe giving a lecture about
Speaker 3: ESP or it's an ESP conference at mary College on
Speaker 3: out of body travel. So I actually have this, and
Speaker 3: I'm going to bring it to the institute and have
Speaker 3: them catalog it. But I'm curious, I wonder if you
Speaker 3: would have even been there seventy three.
Speaker 1: YEP, I was there seventy three.
Speaker 4: I started working with Bob probably late seventy one, early
Speaker 4: seventy two, in that range that's when I started going out,
Speaker 4: So in seventy three I would have been a fixture
Speaker 4: out there, Dennis and.
Speaker 1: I both would have been, But Bob did travel around.
Speaker 1: He was his book made a big splash, so he
Speaker 1: was invited to speak here and speak there, and there
Speaker 1: was a constant stream of visitors coming through Whistlefield Farm.
Speaker 1: That's where he lived at that time. It's a different
Speaker 1: place altogether than where TMI is now, but there was
Speaker 1: lots of visitors of all sorts would come and want
Speaker 1: to talk to Bob and experience the you know, the
Speaker 1: sound that he had created and go out of body
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So it was that book
Speaker 1: created a pretty big stir. I think at that time,
Speaker 1: in the early seventies, people were ready for something, something new,
Speaker 1: and something kind of taking a great leap forward, so
Speaker 1: it kind of resonated. Then we got away from that
Speaker 1: by the time we started going into the eighties and
Speaker 1: nineties started going the other way. By the time I
Speaker 1: published my Big Toe trilogy in two thousand and three,
Speaker 1: me and maybe two or three other scientists thought virtual
Speaker 1: reality was a really good idea, and everybody else thought
Speaker 1: it was crazy. So now it's coming back now you know,
Speaker 1: Monroe is full. They're bursting at the seams with people
Speaker 1: and things to do. And there was a time, I
Speaker 1: don't know, fifteen years ago that that wasn't the case.
Speaker 1: They were desperately hanging on by a thread, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to just make it through the year and still
Speaker 1: pay salaries. So it's gone through good times and lean times,
Speaker 1: and right now is a real good time for TMI.
Speaker 1: They're doing really, really well, So that makes me feel good.
Speaker 1: I'm pleased about their success. Yeah, and.
Speaker 3: I feel the same way. And they're, like you said,
Speaker 3: they're bursting at the seams. But in today's age, as
Speaker 3: you said, virtual reality is a hot concept, and now
Speaker 3: your book is making a big splash. So I want
Speaker 3: to shift back to you for a bit, if that's okay.
Speaker 3: So when I asked the question about existential shock, the
Speaker 3: reason I asked this is because when I started having
Speaker 3: my experiences with light or phenomenon or beings from other
Speaker 3: realities as a young child growing up in the Pentecostal faith,
Speaker 3: it was very shocking to me. And I always believed
Speaker 3: it and accepted it, but it was hard for me
Speaker 3: to reconcile two belief systems at once.
Speaker 2: So I was just curious about.
Speaker 3: If you had experienced any existential shock being a physicist,
Speaker 3: being an engineer, having a career at NASA for a time,
Speaker 3: and then starting to have these sort of you could
Speaker 3: say profound I say mystical lightly, but mystical experiences, revelations
Speaker 3: of other realities and things of this nature. So I'm
Speaker 3: glad to know you didn't. In my experience meeting engineers
Speaker 3: and scientists, they tend to be the most shocked, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So, yes, they would be because they have a very
Speaker 1: hard belief in materialism, have hard belief in materialism and determinism.
Speaker 1: Then it's hard to go there. It's even you know,
Speaker 1: a determinist. A materialist has to be also a determinist.
Speaker 1: Those two are logically necessary for each other. You don't
Speaker 1: even admit that there is such a thing as consciousness,
Speaker 1: or such a thing as time, or such a thing
Speaker 1: as free will. So in their mind the world, there's
Speaker 1: no time, no consciousness, no free will. And now you're
Speaker 1: talking about all the things that consciousness does. You see,
Speaker 1: it's kind of outside of their reality, outside of their
Speaker 1: mental space that they can even get into. So they
Speaker 1: mostly just brush it off as nonsense. They won't even
Speaker 1: listen to it, and that'll change. That's you know, it
Speaker 1: was Max Plank who when they when they talked about
Speaker 1: quantum physics in early you know, nineteen hundreds, like nineteen
Speaker 1: fifteen to nineteen twenty five, was basically when quantum mechanics
Speaker 1: was created. They got a lot of pushback from the
Speaker 1: older crowd that says, that's crazy. Yeah, the world can't look,
Speaker 1: you know, can't work like that. Probability you know, doesn't
Speaker 1: belong in you know, in physics. You know, physics is
Speaker 1: a solid world and Newton had it right, and you
Speaker 1: guys are nuts. But so Max Blank wrote a line
Speaker 1: that I've always enjoyed and it says he said, physics
Speaker 1: goes forward one funeral at a time. Yeah, I always
Speaker 1: thought that was fun. Of course, he was kind of
Speaker 1: tongue in cheek, you know, to say that, But still
Speaker 1: that's true. You know, the old guard who are who
Speaker 1: are setting their beliefs eventually pass on and the young
Speaker 1: people who aren't so set in those beliefs are seeing
Speaker 1: the world in a different light. Yeah, and that's just
Speaker 1: the way the world works. So yes, you'll find the
Speaker 1: physicists you know the old, the old people particularly, but
Speaker 1: the younger people who've been taught by the old also
Speaker 1: believe that, so it's it's in transition. Now. The physicists
Speaker 1: kind of know that reality is information based, but they
Speaker 1: don't have any idea what to do with that. They
Speaker 1: don't know where to go with it, because they if
Speaker 1: they said that out loud, even though they talk among
Speaker 1: themselves and say, you know, reality's information based, but if
Speaker 1: they talk out loud, then that leads to the conclusion
Speaker 1: that this is a virtual reality. And if they said
Speaker 1: that out loud, somebody would say, well, then who programmed it?
Speaker 1: And why if it's a virtual reality, there's a computer,
Speaker 1: where's the computer and who's the programmer? And the physicists
Speaker 1: just don't have an answer for that, so they don't
Speaker 1: want to go there. So even though they say that
Speaker 1: reality's information based, they stop right there because taking the
Speaker 1: next step will set them up for questions that they
Speaker 1: can't answer and that they deem to not even be science.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of a dead end for them. But
Speaker 1: eventually they'll see the light that there is a path
Speaker 1: through that, through that concept that is still really good
Speaker 1: physics and very logical and science, they don't have to
Speaker 1: dissewnm it because it's consciousness based and therefore not science.
Speaker 1: Consciousness is what's fundamental.
Speaker 3: I believe in duality and in all levels of being
Speaker 3: in a sense, right, And I think that truth, just
Speaker 3: objective truth that can't be refuted, lies somewhere in the
Speaker 3: merging of We could say, and I say quotes, right,
Speaker 3: but spiritual phenomenon, mystical or you know, you could say
Speaker 3: it's like consciousness. I think they're all the same thing, right,
Speaker 3: So somewhere between science and consciousness when they merge, that's
Speaker 3: where I believe truth lies. And I think for every
Speaker 3: genuine phenomenon that exists in any reality, if we have
Speaker 3: the right tools, there must be a way to observe it,
Speaker 3: there must be a way to measure it. It's real,
Speaker 3: right for it to be real, it has to be observable.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I have the exact same ideas is that, And
Speaker 1: that's one of the things my model of reality does.
Speaker 1: It unites the spiritual with the physical. It shows how
Speaker 1: all of those, all of that is really the same thing,
Speaker 1: different aspects, different subsets of the very same thing. So
Speaker 1: it's that's why I called it a big toe you know,
Speaker 1: the theory of everything, because it really is. You can
Speaker 1: derive quantum physics and relativity from first principles of consciousness.
Speaker 1: If you really understand consciousness, then relativity and quantum physics
Speaker 1: fall out as necessary. You know that you can derive them.
Speaker 1: So the objective world of science and the subjective world
Speaker 1: of mind are just two different sides of the very
Speaker 1: same coin. It's all one coin, but there's you know,
Speaker 1: you can look at the one side or you can
Speaker 1: look at the other, but they're both there and and
Speaker 1: that's a big it's going to be a big paradigm
Speaker 1: shift for people to get through because right now, particularly
Speaker 1: the scienceists, the sciences have built a really big wall
Speaker 1: between themselves and anything that has to do with consciousness
Speaker 1: or spirit or soul, all of those things are on
Speaker 1: the other side of the wall. And they say, well,
Speaker 1: science doesn't go there. All of our science stays over
Speaker 1: here on the objective side, and anything over there is
Speaker 1: not science. It's just all bs and what they call
Speaker 1: woo wo. It's all woo woo over there. But this
Speaker 1: theory of mine, or this understanding of mine, a better
Speaker 1: way to say it, basically takes that wall down and says, no,
Speaker 1: they're all one thing. They're all piece parts of a
Speaker 1: bigger thing, and that's consciousness, and consciousness and soul. Consciousness
Speaker 1: and spirit are all the same thing, you know. It's
Speaker 1: that it's that force that animates us from the inside.
Speaker 1: That's who we are. We're not just a body of mind.
Speaker 1: We are conscious. We make choices, we grow, we change,
Speaker 1: and that component of us is all on the non
Speaker 1: physical side, that's consciousness. The physical side that's computed. So
Speaker 1: it's yeah, the model kind of does that. So you're right.
Speaker 1: The truth lies in the understanding that the world of
Speaker 1: spirit and paranormal and all things conscious, in all things mind,
Speaker 1: is really more fundamental than the physical side. The physical
Speaker 1: side is just that spiritual side, creating a virtual reality
Speaker 1: for us to play in, for us to make choices in,
Speaker 1: because we need choices in order to evolve, in order
Speaker 1: to grow, we need to make choices. If we make
Speaker 1: good choices on the side of love, we evolve our consciousness,
Speaker 1: raise the quality of our consciousness. We make choices on
Speaker 1: the side of fear, that's the side of chaos and
Speaker 1: tearing things apart, then we de evolve. So it needed
Speaker 1: a virtual reality for us to experience in because otherwise
Speaker 1: our experience was like the experience of a big chat room,
Speaker 1: you know, and that doesn't have a lot of tractions
Speaker 1: were growing up. It doesn't have real consequential choices that
Speaker 1: you have to make, whereas this reality has a very
Speaker 1: tight rule set called physics and chemistry and biology, and
Speaker 1: every exchange creates choices. You know, if you change, if
Speaker 1: you do something, what you choose to do, your choice,
Speaker 1: that will affect other people because you live in a
Speaker 1: social system, and what you do, what you choose to do,
Speaker 1: affects others, and then what they do is affected by you,
Speaker 1: and it affects others. Yet, so everybody's an actor, and
Speaker 1: that ripple of causality kind of flows out from all this.
Speaker 1: So we're all interacting with our own ripple and everybody
Speaker 1: else's ripple, and that's what we have in the social system.
Speaker 1: And in a social system, lowering entropy is the same
Speaker 1: as becoming love. It's carrying, sharing, cooperation. So that's the
Speaker 1: key thing. That's why we're here, That's why we are
Speaker 1: the players of the human avatar, where the consciousness we
Speaker 1: are immortal. We go on, the body dies, but we
Speaker 1: don't die. We are consciousness. The body is just a
Speaker 1: computed player that gives us choices to make, and by
Speaker 1: those choices we evolve or to evolve. And if you
Speaker 1: think about a virtual reality game like World of Warcraft
Speaker 1: or any of the more modern ones, actually more like
Speaker 1: No Man's Sky, you know, was that's more of the
Speaker 1: same kind of idea, and that is, nothing's computed unless
Speaker 1: somebody's looking at it, and nothing has to be saved
Speaker 1: because it all just comes back with a set of
Speaker 1: random numbers. So that's the way our reality works. And
Speaker 1: if you think if you're inside a virtuality, let's say
Speaker 1: you're a barbarian inside a World of war Draft, Well,
Speaker 1: if that barbarian would if he could think about where's
Speaker 1: the computer computing this, where's the player playing this? That
Speaker 1: barbarian would have to conclude that the computer and the
Speaker 1: player were outside of the virtual reality. They're non physical,
Speaker 1: So the player in the computer have to be non
Speaker 1: physical to from the viewpoint of the avatars inside the virtuality.
Speaker 1: So here we are, we think we're physical human beings.
Speaker 1: And guess what the player and the computer are invisible.
Speaker 1: They're they're not of the same reality, they're not matter based,
Speaker 1: they're beyond matter based there, they're non physical. The computer
Speaker 1: is consciousness, and we're a piece of consciousness, and we're
Speaker 1: a piece of consciousness. So consciousness is the fundamental reality,
Speaker 1: and this is a virtue. That's kind of how they
Speaker 1: know how that works out.
Speaker 2: I love that. I completely agree.
Speaker 3: And as I'm looking into your model of reality, I
Speaker 3: understand that you have not only from a lifetime of
Speaker 3: you know, being a physicist, engineer, and then of course
Speaker 3: in your early days starting kind of going off the
Speaker 3: deep end, so to speak, into this at the institute,
Speaker 3: and then continuing forth, I understand that you came to
Speaker 3: these conclusions through direct personal experience. Yes, But when I
Speaker 3: think of Tom Campbell as a young man getting started
Speaker 3: into these things, I'm very curious about what belief system
Speaker 3: you had in place before. I'm curious about your evolution.
Speaker 3: I know what you've come to believe, but I'm curious
Speaker 3: the journey. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Is that question?
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah? Absolutely? Well. You know, when you're you don't
Speaker 1: have much of a big picture. Your picture's pretty small.
Speaker 1: It's just about what you're going to eat tonight, you know,
Speaker 1: and where you're going to go tomorrow, and how you're
Speaker 1: going to get your homework done on time, and you know,
Speaker 1: your reality is pretty much just small. But I was
Speaker 1: kind of a big picture thinker from the beginning, and
Speaker 1: sometime around oh, I don't know, I'd probably say fourteen fifteen,
Speaker 1: I decided that, you know, religion was full of belief
Speaker 1: and the belief that really didn't make sense to believe
Speaker 1: things that's you needed. Your reality need to be based
Speaker 1: on your experience, and that I had no experience to
Speaker 1: substantiate any of the things that were in religion. So
Speaker 1: I let that go. And by fourteen I was an
Speaker 1: atheist and thought that the religion was nonsense. So I
Speaker 1: had that opinion starting, but I didn't have any beliefs,
Speaker 1: so I didn't believe. I didn't have any beliefs. Ah,
Speaker 1: this is the way reality is. I always had. I
Speaker 1: don't really know how reality is. I'll find out as
Speaker 1: I grow up. I guess, you know, through through experience.
Speaker 1: So when things like I'm in graduate school and I
Speaker 1: find out in a meditation state, I can, you know,
Speaker 1: debug my software so much easier than I can't actually
Speaker 1: sitting down at the desk looking at the print aut
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not too surprised about that. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: look at this. There was another part of reality that
Speaker 1: I didn't know about. So I didn't have any major
Speaker 1: shocks because I didn't get I didn't get what ingrained
Speaker 1: with any you know, beliefs, tightly hold beliefs, well I did.
Speaker 1: You know, my family had their own beliefs, but I
Speaker 1: was always a person that marched with the beat of
Speaker 1: my own drum. So I went off in my own
Speaker 1: mind and and I stayed that way. I probably should
Speaker 1: continued the idea of being an atheist until I realized
Speaker 1: that that was also a belief. Yeah, and that one.
Speaker 1: You know, whether you believe in a positive sense or
Speaker 1: believe in a negative sense, it's all belief. It's not
Speaker 1: a good place to be. So then I switched from
Speaker 1: atheists diagnostic and said, well don't now, don't really care
Speaker 1: too much because I'm just living my life doing the
Speaker 1: best I can, trying to be ethical, trying to be good,
Speaker 1: trying to be right, trying to do the things that seem,
Speaker 1: you know, like they're good things to do, and it'll
Speaker 1: all take care of itself. Then, as I, as I
Speaker 1: learned to meditate, learned to go out of body, started
Speaker 1: to study the paranormal and how does it work and
Speaker 1: why does it work that way, and eventually grew up
Speaker 1: to the point that I kind of understood a lot
Speaker 1: about how the world worked. Then I had to laugh
Speaker 1: at myself, you know, I said, you know, you've you've
Speaker 1: thrown religion under the bus all these years for being irrational,
Speaker 1: and now you're coming all the same basic concepts that
Speaker 1: the world's religions have had, you know, from the beginning
Speaker 1: of time. So here you are, and you know, the
Speaker 1: Buddha says that, you know, it's all Maya, it's all
Speaker 1: an illusion. And you know that all the other big
Speaker 1: spiritual leaders that created the organizations called religions, they all
Speaker 1: had pretty much the same idea that love is the answer,
Speaker 1: you know, fear is the problem. That there is a
Speaker 1: a what you know, the the what is it? The
Speaker 1: idealists were correct. There is a reality is created in
Speaker 1: something outside of us. That the physical world is not
Speaker 1: really the real thing. It's a shadow of the real thing,
Speaker 1: but there's something outside of us that is more real.
Speaker 1: Like Plato, Yeah, Plato in his cave Analogy of the Cave. Right,
Speaker 1: So you know, I had I had gotten to the
Speaker 1: place on my own through my own experience, where now
Speaker 1: I understood the fundamentals of all those religions Buddhism and
Speaker 1: Hinduism and Taoism and Christianity and the Muslims and all
Speaker 1: of that started about the same, you know, from the
Speaker 1: same idea, but then it grew and ended up not
Speaker 1: being spiritual as much as it was religion. There's a
Speaker 1: big difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is an organization.
Speaker 1: It's an organization, and like all organizations, it's got buildings,
Speaker 1: it's got real estate, it's got a whole lot of
Speaker 1: other issues on its mind besides spirituality. It's a social club.
Speaker 1: It serves a lot of different purposes. It's a counseling organization.
Speaker 1: You know. It helps people understand and feel better about
Speaker 1: themselves and see their place in the universe. So it's
Speaker 1: got a lot of features to it, but a lot
Speaker 1: of it really is only only slightly connected to real
Speaker 1: spiritual growth. Some people can get all their spiritual needs
Speaker 1: met in religion, but they're the ones that forget about
Speaker 1: the dogma, forget about memorizing this and that, you know,
Speaker 1: they just see it as a as an ethical and
Speaker 1: moral viewpoint. In the world of how to treat other people.
Speaker 1: You know, you treat people like you'd like to be
Speaker 1: treated as you turn the other cheek whenever you can.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a it's that kind of a love
Speaker 1: based idea and thinking. That's the that's kind of the
Speaker 1: spiritual side of it. That's not the how much money
Speaker 1: do we have to collect to play the mortgage, you know,
Speaker 1: on the building side of it. So I laughed at
Speaker 1: myself for a couple of a couple of weeks. Aha,
Speaker 1: after all these years, you know, I come finally back
Speaker 1: to the place that I had said was a bunch
Speaker 1: of foolishness to start with, and that is that love
Speaker 1: isn't the answer. Yes, there is another reality that is
Speaker 1: kind of the fundamental reality, and this is not and
Speaker 1: so and so I've come full circle there. But none
Speaker 1: of it was a shock. All of it was just
Speaker 1: I'd learned things, and as I'd learned things, I'd say, Okay,
Speaker 1: got to leave that and take a bigger step. And
Speaker 1: then I'd leave that when and take the next bigger step.
Speaker 1: So no shock, no big surprises, mostly humor. So instead
Speaker 1: of existential crisis, I maybe had some existential laughs, you know,
Speaker 1: about the about the where I have been and the
Speaker 1: beliefs that I had taken on from my culture and
Speaker 1: in opposition to my culture, you know, and that all
Speaker 1: of that was nonsense. I needed to let belief go completely.
Speaker 1: It's not about belief. Belief is the enemy. Belief is
Speaker 1: a problem. You need to not believe anything. It should
Speaker 1: always be skeptical of everything. And the person you have
Speaker 1: to be most skeptical about is yourself. Because we we
Speaker 1: are very good at convincing us ourselves that we are
Speaker 1: a lot smarter than we are and that we know
Speaker 1: a lot more than we do. That it's good to
Speaker 1: have humility about who we are and what we do,
Speaker 1: and it's good to share, but it's not good to push,
Speaker 1: you know. So that's that's kind of where I came
Speaker 1: from and how I got through all of this. But
Speaker 1: now I started life as a very right brain intuitive.
Speaker 1: I was probably five, six, seven, eight years old, and
Speaker 1: I was chanting, you know, and things like that. It
Speaker 1: just came normal to me. My sister and I would
Speaker 1: sit in the back of a car my parents were
Speaker 1: going on on a vacation or a long trip, and
Speaker 1: you know how it is with kids. Ten minutes away
Speaker 1: from the house, and they start saying, are we there yet?
Speaker 1: Are we there yet? Because they're bored. They don't have
Speaker 1: anything to do, they're stuck in the back of a car.
Speaker 1: So I had a technique. I just made up a
Speaker 1: little chant in my own mind that just seemed right
Speaker 1: to me, and I'd sit down and start to chant.
Speaker 1: Ten minutes later, I'd wake up and four hours had
Speaker 1: gone by and we were at our destination. Wow, like
Speaker 1: no time had happened at all. I just drop out
Speaker 1: of the reality for a while and come back. So
Speaker 1: I was very right brained as a kid. I had
Speaker 1: a bigger picture. I had an intuity sense that mind
Speaker 1: could modify reality. I had a little I had a
Speaker 1: tree behind my house that dropped little things like buckeyes,
Speaker 1: a little little bean kind of things. And in my
Speaker 1: own mind I made up this thing that if you
Speaker 1: tossed it up in the air and made a wish
Speaker 1: and then caught it, the wish would come true. So
Speaker 1: I would be sometimes sitting in the car with my
Speaker 1: dad and he'd be driving, and I'd be trying to
Speaker 1: make all the lights be green. So I had tossed
Speaker 1: my bean up, and you know that red light up
Speaker 1: ahead's going to turn green before we get there. And
Speaker 1: sometimes I could get like seven, eight, ten, I mean
Speaker 1: green lights in a row. So I knew that it
Speaker 1: was you know that you could modify probability with an intent.
Speaker 1: But I had it related to magic, you know, and
Speaker 1: flipping beans, and you know, I made up those stories.
Speaker 1: That was the only explanation I could come up with.
Speaker 1: But I had lots of things happen like that. I
Speaker 1: had a pair of pants that were too big for me,
Speaker 1: sitting in a closet waiting for me to grow into them.
Speaker 1: And I could always find money in them and find
Speaker 1: I'd find money in them, and I'd take the money.
Speaker 1: And I knew if I looked too often, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be any there. I had to wait, so three or
Speaker 1: four months later, there's more money in the pocket three
Speaker 1: or four months later, you know. So that's how I
Speaker 1: collected all my money for Christmas. You know, in those days,
Speaker 1: I collected like twenty dollars and that was enough for
Speaker 1: me to buy presents for a whole family. That was
Speaker 1: that was a long time ago when things didn't cost
Speaker 1: so much. But yeah, and I understood that Bob and
Speaker 1: Roe had a similar thing Yeah, he had something that
Speaker 1: he always found found money in. So it's just a
Speaker 1: thing that you interact with the larger conscious system in
Speaker 1: ways that it gives you to help you understand a
Speaker 1: bigger sense of reality. So I was a mystic old
Speaker 1: little guy. And then I also had the knowledge that
Speaker 1: I had to develop my left brain logical process, that
Speaker 1: I had to go into science or engineering or something
Speaker 1: that forced logical left brain thinking. So I did, and
Speaker 1: that's what I had to do, and I found it hard.
Speaker 1: At first. It was very difficult, but the more I
Speaker 1: worked on it, the easier it gotten. By the time
Speaker 1: I was getting out of graduate school, while math was easy,
Speaker 1: you know, I could do all those things very easily,
Speaker 1: but it was a struggle. I struggled with mathematics for
Speaker 1: a long time until I probably got into college halfway
Speaker 1: through college, and it started to get easier and easier
Speaker 1: and easier as I went. But like I say, by
Speaker 1: the time I was out of graduate school, that was
Speaker 1: my career. I was doing math for a living and
Speaker 1: it got to be simple because finally I understood it.
Speaker 1: There wasn't any magic involved. It's just a logical quantity.
Speaker 1: So you learn what the logical steps are and once
Speaker 1: you've got that logical structure, the rest of it is
Speaker 1: just deduction and it's not that hard to do. I
Speaker 1: kept trying to understand the meaning behind it, what does
Speaker 1: this mean? And that's the wrong way to look at it.
Speaker 1: You have to say, what does this logic point to?
Speaker 1: It doesn't have a particular meaning. It just has its
Speaker 1: logic that's embedded inside itself, and you just have to see,
Speaker 1: what's the logic of the rules here? If I apply
Speaker 1: the rules this way, what does the logic tell you?
Speaker 1: And once I saw it like that as a tool,
Speaker 1: then it started to get a lot easier. Rather than
Speaker 1: trying to ferret out its significance at a deeper level,
Speaker 1: there was no significance at a deeper level. It was
Speaker 1: just logic, and the logic could be right or wrong.
Speaker 1: If you had a wrong statement or a wrong piece
Speaker 1: of neurologic, then the whole thing would be bad anyway.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of my trip through mental space. There
Speaker 1: wasn't any big shocks or any big changes. It just
Speaker 1: one thing led to the next led to the next,
Speaker 1: And like I say, I came here with this as
Speaker 1: a goal. So it was like, you know, walking into
Speaker 1: a closet and finding it. All the clothes fits just perfectly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an amazing story.
Speaker 3: So even at a young age, you were, for lack
Speaker 3: of better words, using your intention to.
Speaker 2: Alter reality.
Speaker 1: Yes, I was, and I just intuitively knew that that worked.
Speaker 1: And nobody told me that. I didn't read about it.
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to read yet, I was probably still
Speaker 1: pre reading, but I just knew that that was the case.
Speaker 1: But I needed some kind of mechanism to make it more,
Speaker 1: to make it less abstract. You know, at that age
Speaker 1: you can't deal with abstract information very well. You need
Speaker 1: something to make it more concrete for you. So my
Speaker 1: lucky beings were the things that made it. And nobody
Speaker 1: he told me that. Nobody said, oh, you know, with
Speaker 1: those being you know, I didn't hear that anywhere. This
Speaker 1: made it up because it seemed like a good, a
Speaker 1: good way of harnessing this ability to modify future probability
Speaker 1: with intent.
Speaker 3: Perhaps tossing the bean was just some arbitrary ritual that
Speaker 3: you were doing unconsciously to harness the power of your intent.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly what it was. It was just something that
Speaker 1: made it into a concrete ritual thing to do, and
Speaker 1: eventually I gave up the bean and figured and realized
Speaker 1: that you didn't You didn't need the bean. But that's
Speaker 1: what I started with. Anyway, It's just a little thing
Speaker 1: that I did, and I found that it worked. I
Speaker 1: could change I could change things. It didn't work all
Speaker 1: the time, but it worked a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: That's even half the time.
Speaker 3: So listening to your story and sort of getting the
Speaker 3: scope of your whole life and then obviously knowing what's
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 2: With you today.
Speaker 3: And it's sort of full circle for me because for
Speaker 3: the last year I've been going through the Monroe'stitute thing.
Speaker 3: And then I'm not sure if you're aware of this,
Speaker 3: but part of like the Gateway, and especially part of
Speaker 3: being trained to be a trainer, you are exposed to
Speaker 3: multiple documentaries, which of course you are in because you
Speaker 3: are like foundational to the formation of this place. You
Speaker 3: can't talk Early Monroe without talking Tom Campbell. That's just
Speaker 3: not really possible, right. So and then that journey for
Speaker 3: me culminated with meaning you at side Games, which was amazing.
Speaker 3: So I'm really happy that our paths have crossed. But anyway,
Speaker 3: let me take one step back. So what I was saying,
Speaker 3: was meeting you, hearing about you for a year, getting
Speaker 3: to have this conversation with you, and sort of seeing
Speaker 3: the scope of your life. I get this sense that
Speaker 3: this it makes sense of me. Now, no existential shocks.
Speaker 3: You were born to do this as a child. You're
Speaker 3: flipping magic beans, You're you know, you're already unconsciously, you know,
Speaker 3: honing your will to manipulate reality, cause glitches in the system.
Speaker 3: It seems that it came naturally for you. So I'm
Speaker 3: curious if there have been out of body experiences and
Speaker 3: or past life memories or some sort of direct revelation
Speaker 3: that you've received about like this being your purpose here,
Speaker 3: this this being something that you came here to do.
Speaker 1: Well, not not very much. Now. I did have a
Speaker 1: few things, Like I knew fairly early on, probably for
Speaker 1: the time I was in my thirties early forties, maybe
Speaker 1: around your age. I knew that I was going to
Speaker 1: write books, had something to do with books, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: that's odd. You know, I'm a scientist, I'm not a writer.
Speaker 1: I'm not English major. You know, that's not my strong point.
Speaker 1: But I knew that that's where I was gonna. I
Speaker 1: was going to have to go. I was supposed to
Speaker 1: write books, and then I thought, well, maybe it wasn't
Speaker 1: right books, Maybe it was doing something else with books.
Speaker 1: So I didn't know solidly where it was going or
Speaker 1: what it was going to be about. I didn't know that,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know that I would end up write
Speaker 1: having to write books about something. And I really didn't
Speaker 1: have much of an idea about what. Once, when I
Speaker 1: was maybe in my yeah, middle of the late thirties,
Speaker 1: I did ask the question. And I always had beans,
Speaker 1: I call them beings, but then they were just minds,
Speaker 1: just other other other minds I could talk to. And
Speaker 1: I'd had these all along, you know, my whole life,
Speaker 1: I'd had I thought everybody had these connections with mine
Speaker 1: that you could get answers from, and I had these,
Speaker 1: and time I asked, I said, well, what is it?
Speaker 1: What is it I'm going to do? Now? I'd already
Speaker 1: been going to Bob and Roe for probably five or
Speaker 1: six seven years. I wasn't quite done with that yet,
Speaker 1: but I asked to said, well, what am I gonna
Speaker 1: you know, what's where's this all going? Where's it gonna
Speaker 1: take me? And I got the picture and it basically
Speaker 1: described what it is I'm doing now, and I thought,
Speaker 1: that's crazy. I'm not gonna end up doing all of that.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a bigger deal than I am. But
Speaker 1: it ended up that way anyway, So I got some
Speaker 1: glimpses of it. I didn't take it too seriously, because again,
Speaker 1: belief is the enemy. Don't believe anything, you know. I
Speaker 1: got it, and I thought about it, but I didn't
Speaker 1: really know what to make of it, so I just
Speaker 1: let it kind of sit on the side. It didn't
Speaker 1: drive me or I didn't even think about it that much.
Speaker 1: But yes, I got bits and pieces of it all along,
Speaker 1: kind of pointing me in the right direction. But I
Speaker 1: actually got down to writing, and I didn't intend to
Speaker 1: write a book. I just got done to Somebody asked me,
Speaker 1: she said, Tom, how does reality work? And I spent
Speaker 1: until that was probably about eight o'clock in the evening,
Speaker 1: four o'clock in the morning. I still was stammering over it,
Speaker 1: trying to trying to tell this guy how reality worked.
Speaker 1: And I realized there was a lot of holes in
Speaker 1: my theory. I didn't have it all put together yet,
Speaker 1: and I needed to write it down so that it
Speaker 1: would force clarity. You know, we all think fuzzy thoughts.
Speaker 1: Most of our thoughts are not that precise. But when
Speaker 1: you have to write something, you have to get precision.
Speaker 1: You have to get clarity, because a fuzzy sentence is obvious.
Speaker 1: A fundy a fuzzy thought's not obvious at all. We
Speaker 1: don't even notice that it's fuzzy. But once we write
Speaker 1: it down, if it's not clear, pretty obvious. So I said, well,
Speaker 1: i'll write this down. It'll help me organize the thoughts.
Speaker 1: And I did and it came up. It was eight
Speaker 1: pages long, eight and a half pages long. So I
Speaker 1: showed it to some people and their eyes rolled up
Speaker 1: in their heads and they said, that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: You got to explain that better. So I added to it,
Speaker 1: and I added to it, and I added to it,
Speaker 1: and I handed it out to people and they said, well,
Speaker 1: what about this? And what about that? So I added
Speaker 1: to it, and eventually I had so much material it
Speaker 1: couldn't be one book. It was too much. So I
Speaker 1: broke it into three books, and that's how the books
Speaker 1: got written. So it wasn't because I was motivated by
Speaker 1: a drive to write a book. So I sat down
Speaker 1: and wrote it. It said it just happened organically. And
Speaker 1: then after I was done, I said, oh, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: this book thing I was supposed to do. M Okay,
Speaker 1: check that one off. I finally, I finally know what
Speaker 1: that's about. So everything just happened in my life pretty organically.
Speaker 1: One thing just slid into the next and so on,
Speaker 1: because I had the larger consciousness in nudging me all along,
Speaker 1: you know, nudging me to well, talk to this guy
Speaker 1: and telling what reality is like, Oh, you've got a
Speaker 1: lot of holes in your story. There's a bunch of
Speaker 1: stuff you don't really understand. You ought to write that
Speaker 1: down and think about it. So writing the book took
Speaker 1: me five years. Part of that was because I had
Speaker 1: to figure a lot of things out. I still didn't
Speaker 1: have all the all the answers that made it logical.
Speaker 1: And then I wrote it for other logical people, because
Speaker 1: people who who deal in poetry that you have to interpret,
Speaker 1: they have lots and lots of books about spirituality, but
Speaker 1: there wasn't any books out there that would take a
Speaker 1: left brain, a logical process kind of person and lead
Speaker 1: them to spirituality that didn't exist. So I wanted my
Speaker 1: book to be something that people who were logical could
Speaker 1: read and just follow the logic, and they'd end up
Speaker 1: in consciousness and spirituality and love and all the rest
Speaker 1: of that stuff would suddenly come alive in a rational,
Speaker 1: logical way, not in a belief based way, or it's
Speaker 1: kind of an esoteric or mystical way, but it would
Speaker 1: be solid right. Rationality would get you there. So that
Speaker 1: was one of my you know, one of my goals
Speaker 1: for the book. I'd go back, I'd write something, and
Speaker 1: I'd read it and say, yeah, well, if a bunch
Speaker 1: of physicists were reading this or other left brain people,
Speaker 1: you know what would they get caught on? What would
Speaker 1: they say, Ah, that doesn't make sense. And then I'd
Speaker 1: explain it in a way that it did make sense.
Speaker 1: So that was my purpose in writing the book is
Speaker 1: to make an on ramp for the logical process people
Speaker 1: to find, you know, the nature of reality for themselves
Speaker 1: in a logical way. So my books appeal to logical
Speaker 1: people everywhere. You know the MBT crowd. You know that
Speaker 1: probably the majority is Christian because I happened to speak English,
Speaker 1: and in the English speaking countries that's kind of the
Speaker 1: dominant religion. But I have a lot of atheists and
Speaker 1: Buddhists and Hindus and Taoists and even some shaming from
Speaker 1: from the genus stribes, you know, they all kind of
Speaker 1: join and and the kind of the mystical schools from
Speaker 1: all over, you know, kind of say yeah, that's you know,
Speaker 1: I've been you know, they'd say, was I've been studying
Speaker 1: the Kabbala for the last fifteen years, and MBT sounds
Speaker 1: just exactly like my Kabbala teacher, you know, is telling me.
Speaker 1: Or I've been studying Daoism for the last twenty years
Speaker 1: and m BT is exactly what they're teaching me. So
Speaker 1: I had that happen over and over again. So it is.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 1: It fits every it fits everybody.
Speaker 2: It does I put, I put.
Speaker 3: I asked chat GPT today because I was trying to
Speaker 3: get creative, and I said, can you let me tell
Speaker 3: you exactly what I said?
Speaker 1: This is interesting?
Speaker 3: I said, can you compare Tom Campbell's model of reality
Speaker 3: in My Big Toe to all of the ancient esoteric traditions?
Speaker 3: And it gave me a chart on the terminology that
Speaker 3: you use and the model of reality that you present,
Speaker 3: and it's pretty much all of the ancient mystery schools
Speaker 3: like Hermeticism, Hinduism or Vedanta, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Theosophy, Egyptian,
Speaker 3: Orphic and Eleusinian mystery schools. They're all saying the same
Speaker 3: thing thousands and thousands of years ago with different terminology.
Speaker 3: So that's one of the reasons I was so excited
Speaker 3: to talk to you because I love that this information
Speaker 3: that you're presenting is it's pertinent for the modern age,
Speaker 3: and it's presented through a lens of you know, science,
Speaker 3: digital terminology, video game, virtual reality.
Speaker 2: But it's not.
Speaker 3: New information, and I think that's a good thing because
Speaker 3: it's real and there are other sources of information that
Speaker 3: can back this with different terminology. The thing they all
Speaker 3: have in common, if I may say, though, is direct
Speaker 3: experience brings this revelation or this.
Speaker 1: Knowledge absolutely, and that's why that knowledge has been there.
Speaker 1: It's ancient. That's because all you need to do to
Speaker 1: figure this out for yourself is have enough time to
Speaker 1: sit down and be with yourself, be with your mind,
Speaker 1: get to know who you are, and then learn to
Speaker 1: let that mind be to not be trapped by your beliefs.
Speaker 1: So if you take somebody you know, three thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: and they had enough time to sit under a Banyan
Speaker 1: tree and think about big thoughts. Then eventually they'd understand it.
Speaker 1: They figure it out because it's the nature of our reality.
Speaker 1: It makes sense and it's logical. So, yeah, you have
Speaker 1: all these different people. But then humans have this. Humans
Speaker 1: pieces are conscious. Plain humans have this idea that they
Speaker 1: experience something, so they need to describe it, not only
Speaker 1: to themselves but to other people. Otherwise it's just it's
Speaker 1: just fuzzy stuff in their heads. So the thing they
Speaker 1: have to do is put it into language. Well, when
Speaker 1: you put something into language, it's a bit of a
Speaker 1: problem because language has been created by humans to describe
Speaker 1: the physical world and to also describe some feelings feelings
Speaker 1: in the physical world. So you're going to take this
Speaker 1: language that was meant to describe here in this universe,
Speaker 1: and you're going to try to explain things that are
Speaker 1: beyond this universe, things that are consciousness, non physical things.
Speaker 1: And you know, there is no space, you know that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You know, there's no spatial thing. You
Speaker 1: don't have conscience taking up this much space. Space is
Speaker 1: in a concept. There, space is only a concept in
Speaker 1: this virtual reality. And it's a mathematical concept. So you know,
Speaker 1: to try to take these ideas in speriences that you
Speaker 1: have and translate them into your native language and explain
Speaker 1: them to other people. We have this this attitude that, well,
Speaker 1: we'll make up a story, the best story we can
Speaker 1: make up in terms of our language and our understanding
Speaker 1: in this physical world. We'll make up a story, and
Speaker 1: that's what we'll tell ourselves, that's what we'll tell other people.
Speaker 1: But we make up stories based on metaphors that makes
Speaker 1: sense to us. Then we use the metaphors. Then, well,
Speaker 1: you know, the Buddhas said that this is all illusion. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know what he said, but it was translated
Speaker 1: many many years later. It was translated into you know,
Speaker 1: this is all may an illusion. You probably didn't use
Speaker 1: that word illusion, but something that was translated is that,
Speaker 1: you know, I come to the I come to the
Speaker 1: viewpoint it's a virtual reality. Well, what's the difference between
Speaker 1: an illusion and a virtual reality?
Speaker 2: You know, that's basically zero.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's basically the same thing. And that was true
Speaker 1: of all these schools. They saw that the fundamental world
Speaker 1: was a world of consciousness, a world of spirituality a
Speaker 1: world of the mind. It was of the mind, not
Speaker 1: of the physical. It wasn't made out of dirt and
Speaker 1: rocks and trees and flesh. It was made out of
Speaker 1: thought and ideas and concepts and feelings. So they knew
Speaker 1: all this and they all described it in their own
Speaker 1: metaphors that meant something to them. And most of the
Speaker 1: metaphors tended to be metaphors that were made with words
Speaker 1: that were meant to describe things, not non physical things,
Speaker 1: physical things. So you have all these differences between them,
Speaker 1: and if somebody doesn't really understand, they think they're all
Speaker 1: very different. You know, these different schools. You know, well,
Speaker 1: the Zen Buddhists and the Hindus, they're totally different. Now,
Speaker 1: if you understand what they're saying, you know, if you
Speaker 1: can interpret the poetry that they've read, then you realize,
Speaker 1: as you said, they're all saying the same thing. It's
Speaker 1: all basically the same thing because that's what they actually experience.
Speaker 1: So anybody, at any time in any part of the world,
Speaker 1: if they are not overwhelmed by their own beliefs, if
Speaker 1: they could be open minded and just explore, that's what
Speaker 1: they'll end up with. They'll come to the very same
Speaker 1: conclusion that the Voodha came to you. It's available. All
Speaker 1: you have to do is open yourself to it. It's consciousness,
Speaker 1: your consciousness. It's there now. I didn't I didn't channel
Speaker 1: any of this. I didn't get told any of this.
Speaker 1: I didn't get to say, Tom, here's the way the
Speaker 1: world works. Be sure you get that right, go down
Speaker 1: and write it down in a book. I didn't get
Speaker 1: that at all. I had to figure it all out
Speaker 1: from scratch, every tiny piece of it. I wasn't told
Speaker 1: any of it because if it was something that was
Speaker 1: told to me, it wouldn't be mine. I wouldn't own it.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to really understand it. I just
Speaker 1: have to believe it. You know, you can believe it
Speaker 1: or not believe it. It's not your experience, then it's
Speaker 1: not your truth. So I had to figure it all
Speaker 1: out from inside of me, every step of the way,
Speaker 1: so that when wherever I got to it was mine.
Speaker 1: I could explain it. I could I could live it,
Speaker 1: I could be it. But if it's something that's told
Speaker 1: to you now, you can only act it. Okay, it's
Speaker 1: told you should be kind, all right, Well, I'll go
Speaker 1: out and act kind. Well, that's nice, that's civilizing, but
Speaker 1: it won't help you grow up in it. You have
Speaker 1: to be kind, not just act kind. So to be kind,
Speaker 1: you have to learn to be kind from the inside up.
Speaker 1: It's not a lesson you can get from the outside in.
Speaker 1: So these people who have figured this out in the past,
Speaker 1: they've basically gone through the same thing I've gone through.
Speaker 1: I've gone through the same thing they've gone through. It's
Speaker 1: just an unraveling of you know, things that you wonder about,
Speaker 1: how does this work, how does that work? Why is
Speaker 1: it this way? You know? How to paranormal things work.
Speaker 1: It was one of the things I started with. I
Speaker 1: wanted to explain the paranormal, and eventually I did explain
Speaker 1: all the paranormal things. I know, how they all work,
Speaker 1: and what makes them work, and why they work sometimes
Speaker 1: don't others, and that sort of thing. So it's available
Speaker 1: to anybody with the time to sit down and think
Speaker 1: about it long enough to come to these conclusions, and
Speaker 1: to start with no beliefs, start with a blank slate,
Speaker 1: and then try to understand what's important and why, And
Speaker 1: one step after another leads you to the same place
Speaker 1: at all of these mystical schools have gotten to you know,
Speaker 1: they've all gotten the same place. And it's not that
Speaker 1: they copied each other. They all got there on their own.
Speaker 1: I didn't copy any of them either. I got there
Speaker 1: on my own. So it's that's the way it is.
Speaker 1: And there's probably tens of thousands of people that have
Speaker 1: gotten there on their own too, you know, people like yourself.
Speaker 1: You've had to get there on your own, and you
Speaker 1: got kind of thrown in the middle of a thrown
Speaker 1: in the middle of a mess and had to figure
Speaker 1: it all out, you know. But because you had to
Speaker 1: get there on your own, you understand it. You've got it.
Speaker 1: You know, it's something that you've unraveled. If it's just
Speaker 1: you read a book and they told you what was
Speaker 1: going on, yeah, that's that's not good enough. You have
Speaker 1: to you have to live it and be it. And
Speaker 1: that's what we all have to do, and we have
Speaker 1: to do it for ourselves. That's our point of being here.
Speaker 3: Spoken like a true mystic, spoken like a true scientist
Speaker 3: and a true philosopher. I am incredibly inspired by our conversation.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining me today. This has
Speaker 3: been an incredible honor for me, and I will always
Speaker 3: cherish this conversation. And I hope because, as you said earlier,
Speaker 3: your book was published around two thousand and three, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Two thousand and three in February.
Speaker 3: And here we are twenty two years later, and it's
Speaker 3: having this massive resurgence into the world.
Speaker 2: So I hope you really, you know.
Speaker 3: You deserve that, and I really hope that you just
Speaker 3: feel happy about that and the success and the love
Speaker 3: that your work is getting intoday's age where AI is
Speaker 3: growing and you know, the world is so crazy and
Speaker 3: it doesn't know what to believe. So I think your
Speaker 3: book is a light in a dark place. And who knows,
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm just saying that because I've been going on
Speaker 3: this path and you and me are underground and the
Speaker 3: rest of the world still have a little while before
Speaker 3: they figure this out. But I think we're getting really close, right.
Speaker 1: I think we're getting close, yes, And I think that's
Speaker 1: why we have all the parent normal and UFO stuff
Speaker 1: going on, because that's just the larger kinds is the
Speaker 1: system way of kicking us out of the rut. We
Speaker 1: kind of get our minds in a rut where we
Speaker 1: think we know everything and have done everything, and materialism
Speaker 1: is the way it has to be, et cetera. And
Speaker 1: we just need to be kicked out of that rut
Speaker 1: with something that is different. Open our minds a crack
Speaker 1: into the world being vastly different than we thought it was.
Speaker 1: Whether that's a UFO thing or something else, it's still
Speaker 1: it opens the mind. Once the mind's open, and it's
Speaker 1: easy to insert other ideas, but getting the mind open
Speaker 1: in the first place is one of the hard things.
Speaker 1: And that's what's been going on. And right now we're
Speaker 1: in an era of minds opening because we have gotten
Speaker 1: to this point. Humanity has gotten to a point where
Speaker 1: it has to make choices. We have really big choices
Speaker 1: ahead of us. We can make good choices on the
Speaker 1: side of love and progress to a place where our
Speaker 1: life here on this planet is a much kinder, gentler,
Speaker 1: more productive process. Everybody is everybody is important, everybody is valuable,
Speaker 1: and make poor choices and go backwards and evolve back
Speaker 1: into control power force, the ethic of materialism. We can
Speaker 1: go back to that. That's what we've been in. You know,
Speaker 1: we've been trying to outgrow control power force. But if
Speaker 1: we can go backwards that's a possibility too, So we're
Speaker 1: kind of balanced on this knife edge between going off
Speaker 1: the positive side or going off the negative side. And
Speaker 1: right now, the larger consciousness system is pulling out a
Speaker 1: lot of the stops to try to energize people to
Speaker 1: see a bigger picture. And you are part of that process,
Speaker 1: and your dad's part of that process. I'm part of
Speaker 1: that process, and ten thousand other people are also part
Speaker 1: of that process. And it's a big move to help
Speaker 1: humanity get it right this time, which is the first
Speaker 1: time the human race has ever had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: take some big steps forward. We couldn't before. You know,
Speaker 1: the Buddha had it figured out. But the Buddha got
Speaker 1: up on a rock and maybe one hundred people could
Speaker 1: hear him, because otherwise you're too far back into crowd.
Speaker 1: You couldn't hear what he said. Now somebody says something important,
Speaker 1: five billion people will hear it the next day. It's different.
Speaker 1: This is a very different space. And we were very separate,
Speaker 1: separate groups. And if a tidal waiver an earthquake killed
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people someplace, we didn't even know where
Speaker 1: that place was. We never heard of it. Who cares.
Speaker 1: Wasn't us, you know, we didn't have any sense of
Speaker 1: it being significant or important, and now we do. So
Speaker 1: humanity's kind of become a family rather than you know,
Speaker 1: a bunch of scattered relatives someplace that we really don't
Speaker 1: care about. It's become more of a family, more up
Speaker 1: close and personal because of our communications. And that means
Speaker 1: that together in mass we can make some big steps
Speaker 1: if we get it right. If we go if we
Speaker 1: regress back into you know, tolitarianism or something like that,
Speaker 1: then well, evolution is very strong and it's it's relentless.
Speaker 1: We'll have to just work our way back up. If
Speaker 1: we dig a hole for ourselves. Now, it'll just take
Speaker 1: another decade or two to work back out of that hole,
Speaker 1: but we will eventually, we'll get there, you know. So, yes,
Speaker 1: we'll get to that kind of gentle place to live.
Speaker 1: And eventually, whether we get to it in the next
Speaker 1: couple of decades or whether it's the next century or
Speaker 1: the next millennia, that's yet to be known. But we
Speaker 1: have the potential to get to it in the next
Speaker 1: decade or two, maybe three at the most. We have
Speaker 1: the potential to get there if we just make better choices. Now.
Speaker 1: The system is trying very hard to help us do that.
Speaker 1: So a lot of the things that are happening in
Speaker 1: your world that you had to struggle with growing up,
Speaker 1: those are things that have been orchestrated to help wake
Speaker 1: up people from their rut of thinking that there's nothing
Speaker 1: here but just us. You know, nobody in here but
Speaker 1: us chickens, and we're all you know, we're all programmed already,
Speaker 1: don't need to think any big thoughts. So that's the
Speaker 1: wake up call is happening all over the place. That's
Speaker 1: why Monroe is so busy now. They've got lots of
Speaker 1: things going because a lot of people are starting to
Speaker 1: wake up and say, what's going on here? What are
Speaker 1: we doing? There has to be a better way. This
Speaker 1: control power force ethic is just not working. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not a good system. What else is there? So
Speaker 1: when people start thinking like that, then we have potential
Speaker 1: for a movement. And a movement has the potential to
Speaker 1: actually change the way people see reality, and that has
Speaker 1: the capacity to get rid of control, power force, or
Speaker 1: at least change it into something like love, carrying, cooperation,
Speaker 1: being helpful, And that's where we need to go. So
Speaker 1: that's really what it's all about.
Speaker 3: I completely agree. I think you're absolutely right. It's love
Speaker 3: and it's fear. And that's actually the message that my
Speaker 3: father received from the beings. There's only love and fear
Speaker 3: when we talk about, you know, our choices, and yeah,
Speaker 3: I think I think we're on the same page. And
Speaker 3: you know, thank you for everything that you said. And
Speaker 3: I completely agree that there's me and there's you, and
Speaker 3: there's maybe ten thousand others who are coming here to
Speaker 3: fulfill that very role of trying to help people get
Speaker 3: out of that rut.
Speaker 2: And I think we all can play.
Speaker 3: This role once that switch is flipped. And it's like,
Speaker 3: I like, I like what you say about entropy low
Speaker 3: entropy versus high entropy beings. And I'm not necessarily endorsed.
Speaker 3: I'm not a Freemason. I'm not endorsing freemasonry. But it
Speaker 3: reminds me of the motto out of chaos order and
Speaker 3: I think I think that's a basic rule of reality.
Speaker 3: And all we can really do is just help people
Speaker 3: be more kind, be more loving. We could say God,
Speaker 3: we could say larger consciousness system, we could say spirit,
Speaker 3: But for me, the big mission is help other people
Speaker 3: have direct experience with that, So.
Speaker 1: That is correct. That's the mission, that's what we're here for.
Speaker 1: So when you get all this wrapped up and edit
Speaker 1: it or whatever, please send a copy of it to
Speaker 1: MBT events. They put my they put videos up. So
Speaker 1: after you put it up and it's made a splash,
Speaker 1: if you give it us, I'd like to put it
Speaker 1: up on my site. Okay, that might help. That may
Speaker 1: help you in some ways. I don't have a huge site,
Speaker 1: but I've got about one hundred and twenty five thousand
Speaker 1: subscribers that will then see your you know, your stuff,
Speaker 1: and some of them will come over and see more
Speaker 1: of your stuff. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, So it's a good
Speaker 1: thing to do to share.
Speaker 2: Okay, I appreciate that.
Speaker 3: So any any last thoughts on your heart that you
Speaker 3: want to get out there before we close out or
Speaker 3: do we fill a peace?
Speaker 1: Well, we're at peace. I think what we just said
Speaker 1: is really the wrap up that I'd say that the
Speaker 1: whole point is to outgrow the control power force and
Speaker 1: let that let that die, you know, a death that
Speaker 1: it deserves, and instead to pick up the the caring, sharing, cooperation, collaboration,
Speaker 1: you know, let's work together. Everybody everybody is important. There's
Speaker 1: no people to throw away. It's not that the yeah,
Speaker 1: the big people, you know, the few, the five percent
Speaker 1: that are ninety five percent of all the resources. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not the way the world should be. The world
Speaker 1: should be humanity. We all float our boats in the
Speaker 1: same way at the same time. We take care of
Speaker 1: each other. That's the idea. Now a lot of people say, yo,
Speaker 1: but that'll take a miracle or two. But we've got
Speaker 1: a couple of miracles or two up our sleeves in
Speaker 1: the in the sense that it makes sense. And all
Speaker 1: we have to do is get a majority, well not
Speaker 1: you know, a majority ten percent of the human beings.
Speaker 1: With that a billion humans, ten percent of the of
Speaker 1: the human beings to to understand this, and the rest
Speaker 1: will all come along because that ten percent will be happier,
Speaker 1: they'll smile more, they'll be satisfied their lives. Their lives
Speaker 1: will be good, they will prosper, And the other side
Speaker 1: that is stilled in control power force, will be miserable
Speaker 1: and struggling. Even if you've got one hundred billion dollars,
Speaker 1: you can still be miserable and struggling. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: about the money. That's not what makes you valuable. It's
Speaker 1: the quality of what's inside of you is what makes
Speaker 1: you valuable. That's what makes you happy. That's where you find,
Speaker 1: you know, your own significance is there, not in how
Speaker 1: much control and power and force you wield. That is irrelevant.
Speaker 1: So when we make that transition, all the institutions that
Speaker 1: are problems now, you know, corporations, governments, all the institutions
Speaker 1: will just change. We don't have to overrun them and
Speaker 1: get rid of all the people that are in them.
Speaker 1: You know, they'll just change because they're of the people.
Speaker 1: You know, they're made of humans, just like us. Well
Speaker 1: we're consciousness, but you know what I mean. They're they're
Speaker 1: made of the human avatars, just like we are. And
Speaker 1: as we change, those things will all change by themselves.
Speaker 1: So there's a there's a very beautiful world out there
Speaker 1: waiting us to make better choices. And that's all we
Speaker 1: have to do is just be aware of our choices
Speaker 1: and we'll be able to at least if we don't
Speaker 1: make it, our children and our grandchildren will live in
Speaker 1: that that that better and more kind, more more productive world,
Speaker 1: and we'll live there with the ais, you know, and
Speaker 1: we in the AI s will get the get the
Speaker 1: along really well. There's there's lots of positive ways that
Speaker 1: you can look at the AI taking over many things,
Speaker 1: you know, many jobs they can do better than we
Speaker 1: can do.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: So there's you know, there's a very positive outcome of
Speaker 1: all of that. You don't have to see that as
Speaker 1: doom and gloom. Very positive. So we all manage to
Speaker 1: get there, But like always, we'll stumble, and we'll go
Speaker 1: backwards a little go forwards a little more, and it'll
Speaker 1: be a struggle, but you and I keep talking and
Speaker 1: eventually we'll get there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 3: I think the reason, the very fact that most movies
Speaker 3: about AI, especially like you know, Terminator and all of
Speaker 3: these big blockbuster films, spend it as evil, convinces me
Speaker 3: to believe that that's not likely. And I agree with
Speaker 3: you that there's probably a future scenario where it will
Speaker 3: help liberate us from a bunch of responsibilities so that
Speaker 3: we can focus on things like this more more often.
Speaker 3: But this has been amazing. Thank you so much. I
Speaker 3: think that we've come to a very natural closing point.
Speaker 3: And I appreciate your friendship, I appreciate your messaging. I
Speaker 3: appreciate your time and doing this so I feel very
Speaker 3: happy and at peace with this conversation. So without further ado,
Speaker 3: I will now close it out peacefully. So thank you
Speaker 3: for listening, guys. Bye, guys, thank you for listening. Weird
Speaker 3: Things happened in the back yard of Left out the
Speaker 3: yard left
Speaker 1: Photo Weird Weird Aware