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Daily bonuses 24 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.560 are waiting, no purchase necessary boid We're prohibited by long 25 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.240 eighteen plus terms and conditions applag See website. 26 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:02.439 For loop Tadian. 27 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.959 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.079 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:25.400 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 30 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:36.000 host journalist and author Dan. 33 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:50.519 Zupanski, Good Evening. Reverend Willie Maxwell was a rural preacher 34 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:53.719 accused of murdering five of his family members for insurance 35 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.799 money in the seventies. With the help of a savvy lawyer, 36 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:01.439 he escaped justice for years until the relative shot him 37 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:05.680 dead at the funeral of his last victim. Despite hundreds 38 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.639 of witnesses, Maxwell's murderer was acquitted thanks to the same 39 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:14.000 attorney who had previously defended the reverend. Sitting in the 40 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.479 audience during the Vigilantes trial was Harper Lee, who had 41 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.120 traveled from New York City to her native Alabama with 42 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.199 the idea of writing her own in Cold Blood, the 43 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:26.400 true crime classic. She had helped her friend Truman Capoti 44 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:31.000 research seventeen years earlier. Lee spent a year in town 45 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.080 reporting and many more years working on her own version 46 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:38.639 of the case. Now, Casey Sepp brings this story to life, 47 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:41.560 from the shocking murders to the courtroom drama to the 48 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:45.000 racial politics of the Deep South. At the same time, 49 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:48.039 she offers a deeply moving portrait of one of the 50 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:52.280 country's most beloved writers in her struggle with fame success 51 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:55.680 in the mystery of artistic creativity. The book they were 52 00:02:55.719 --> 00:03:00.159 featuring this evening is Furious Hours, Murder, Fraud, and the 53 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.560 Last Trial of Harper Lee, with my special guest, journalist 54 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.560 and author, Casey Sep. Welcome to the program, and thank 55 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:10.080 you very much for this interview. Casey Sep. 56 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:13.759 Yeah, thanks so much, Dan. It's an honor to talk 57 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:14.039 with you. 58 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.719 It's an absolute pleasure. This is a already released last year, 59 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:26.360 a big, big bestseller and rave reviews. Let's start off 60 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:33.800 immediately here with just your journalism background and what brought 61 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:35.240 you to this story. 62 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:39.400 Yeah, sure thing, you know. I actually, I mean I 63 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.599 studied literature and religion, and so in some ways this 64 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:45.120 was a perfect book for me to get to write. 65 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:48.639 My background wasn't in crime journalism, but obviously part of 66 00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:52.599 the Reverence story is about religious authority and the role 67 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.639 of religious leaders in small towns. Much was made of 68 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:01.120 his ability to escape justice because of the respect and 69 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:05.120 authority he had owing to his vocation. And when Harper 70 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:07.960 Lee got involved, obviously this is the kind of story 71 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.199 within a story about another writer's attempt to research and 72 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:14.479 report this case. So those are the kind of deep 73 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:18.399 journalistic background and academic interests that brought me to this case. 74 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.600 But you know, I grew up in a small town, 75 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.240 and I grew up loving to kill a mockingbird. So 76 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.560 Harper Lee was one of my favorite authors, and that 77 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.399 was how I came to know the story of the 78 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.720 Reverend Maxwell was through her involvement. 79 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:34.360 Let's talk about as you do in the book about 80 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:38.839 Reverend Willie Maxwell. His parents Ada and will and they 81 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:43.399 were sharecroppers, and he was born one of nine children. 82 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:45.600 And you say he was born in an age of 83 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:49.959 political and environmental upheaval. Tell us a little bit about 84 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:53.279 where this is. He was born in Kellyton. You provide 85 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:55.600 a map in the book, and this is just west 86 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.319 of Alexander City. Tell us a little bit about Cusa 87 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:03.439 County and where this story is set. 88 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.680 Sure, yeah, some of your listeners might know it. So 89 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.759 Lake Martin is this beautiful part of Alabama, eastern Alabama, 90 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:13.759 not far from the Georgia line, and it's known now 91 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.519 as a pretty distinctive recreational area. So folks in Montgomery 92 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.680 and Birmingham have you know, summer houses there, or they 93 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:22.680 go and they spend a week at the lake. But 94 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:25.519 the Reverend Maxwell was born in Kutha County, which is 95 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.399 one of the least populated, most rural counties in all 96 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.839 of Alabama. So he was born to sharecroppers, spent much 97 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:34.680 of his early life sharecropping, and worked some at a 98 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.319 textile mill. So this was a part of Alabama that 99 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.920 when hydroelectric power came in, it mechanized a lot of 100 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:44.199 these textile mills and moved a lot of rural folks 101 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.399 into town and into just a higher quality of life. 102 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.879 So he served in the army, and when he came 103 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.360 back from his army service during World War Two, he 104 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.839 actually went to work in the very textile mill that 105 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:58.639 had had an army commission to make the uniforms he 106 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:02.040 wore a little bit of his background. And you know, 107 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.240 when I say that kind of political and environmental upheople, 108 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.199 it has a lot to do with the changing economy 109 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.120 of the South, so those textile mills really started to boom. 110 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.079 And you know, it didn't make everyone rich, but it 111 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:16.279 made a few people really rich, and it improved the 112 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:18.759 quality of life for a lot of others. And on 113 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.199 top of that, you know, the reverend, long before he 114 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.120 was accused of murder, he was a very entrepreneurial man. 115 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.360 And you know he was he wasn't ordained Baptist minister, 116 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:31.079 so he spent some of his time preaching and leading 117 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:34.959 worship services and conducting funerals. But you know, he did 118 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:36.879 a lot of other things for money too. He worked 119 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.199 at a rock quarry. He just did, you know, kind 120 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.399 of anything he could for money. And I think that's 121 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.199 one of the reasons when you know, folks who knew 122 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:48.759 him close family members of his started to die, and 123 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:52.319 these lucrative life insurance policies he held on all of them. 124 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:54.959 It sort of added up to a kind of character, 125 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.759 you know, someone who had big aspirations, who would do 126 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.839 anything for money, who was entrepreneurial, who was certainly determined 127 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:03.639 to rise above his station in life. 128 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.199 Let's talk about he meets and gives a ring and 129 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.160 proposes to Mary lou Edwards, and he's married in April 130 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.439 forty nine. Tell us about a little bit about their 131 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:18.639 married life, what she did and what he was doing 132 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.959 at that time within this marriage. 133 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:26.240 Yeah, so it's interesting the reverence of her wife quite early, 134 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.079 and she was from the same part of Alabama he was, 135 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.439 and by all accounts, for about two decades they you know, 136 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.199 from the outside looking in, had a very happy marriage. 137 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.560 And you know, she was the wife of a minister. 138 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:41.360 She worked with him at that textile mill. He he 139 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.040 also did something again depending on where listeners are listening from, 140 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.439 they might know a little bit about the timber industry, 141 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.120 but you know he also worked with the Paulpwodding crew 142 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:55.120 cutting you know, short short timbers for paper pulping mills, 143 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.639 and so he was a busy guy, and you know, 144 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.199 he was well known and respected for them for the ministry, 145 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:03.759 but had a pretty high quality of life that she 146 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.439 contributed to. She took in work as a seamstress, and 147 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:09.800 she came from a big family too, so she had 148 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:12.240 a lot of sisters and a brother in the area, 149 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:15.800 and you know, they were well known, well respected people, 150 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.839 and that was pretty much their their way of life 151 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:23.879 until nineteen seventy when she was found murdered, and the 152 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:26.639 story of their marriage, as far as the public was concerned, 153 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.879 really changed and things came out about affairs he had had, 154 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.120 and rumors about his life, you know, without her and 155 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.000 outside of that marriage. 156 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:41.600 Now on the day did you have in nineteen seventy 157 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:45.399 August third, nineteen seventy, he had left his wife and 158 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.840 again twenty years marriage. But he had asked his wife 159 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.679 to leave the phone line open that day so he 160 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.080 could call her on the way home. 161 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:57.559 So yeah, so he was headed to preach at a revival. 162 00:08:57.679 --> 00:08:59.759 So again, you know this guy, for all the other 163 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.759 of work he did, he was most known as a preacher. 164 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.480 And in fact, he became so infamous in this part 165 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.120 of Alabama. If you mentioned the reverend, you didn't even 166 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:10.919 have to say Maxwell. You know, most people knew who 167 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.559 you meant. And in nineteen seventy, you know, he was 168 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.159 still just a well regarded minister headed to preach a 169 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:21.080 summer revival and he was, you know, driving far enough 170 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.080 away he told his wife to leave the phone on 171 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:24.559 the hook so he could call to let her know 172 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:26.879 he was headed home. She had not gone with him, 173 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:29.879 even though some of the other ministers involved had brought 174 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:34.600 their wives. And we know this because Mary Lou Maxwell, 175 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:37.480 the first missus Maxwell, went next door that night and 176 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.360 talked with the neighbor of hers and said, you know, 177 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:41.320 my husband told me to leave the phone on the hook. 178 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.080 He's preaching out a revival. She had a sister come 179 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.200 visit her that day. You know, it was early August. 180 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.679 She was shelling peas, just preparing the summer harvest, and 181 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.320 shame old, same old. So she didn't keep anything from anyone, 182 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.759 and so both from her sister and from her neighbor, 183 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:58.080 we know a little bit about what happened earlier in 184 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.279 the day, and what the reverend told the police was that, 185 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.919 you know, he called and she didn't answer, and when 186 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.080 he came home, she wasn't there, and he didn't think 187 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:08.519 anything of it. He went right to sleep, you know, 188 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.320 he figured she was out with a sister or visiting 189 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.519 her mother, and he went right to bed because he 190 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.080 was tired and didn't think anything of it. And you know, 191 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.919 the book starts to track a couple of different version 192 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.159 of events because on the one hand, the reverence were 193 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.759 he was never involved in his wife's murder. He had 194 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:26.399 no idea what happened. If anything, it was someone trying 195 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:29.399 to frame him. But there's, obviously, as there often is 196 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:33.080 with a domestic murder like this, there's a parallel track 197 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.240 of what everyone else said and what the police were 198 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.399 able to piece together about what happened that night. 199 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:43.840 One of the interesting things was that the neighbor that 200 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:48.519 he spoke to that night ended up giving him or 201 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.000 keeping a little bit of information from him and then 202 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.639 talking to police. What did the Dorcas Anderson say to 203 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.399 police before we talk about. 204 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.600 The trial, Yeah, sure things. So when the police came 205 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:06.279 to investigate, so Mary Lou's body was found, and her 206 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.519 car was found, and it looked like a car accident, 207 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:10.840 but then it was actually quite a bloody and brutal scene, 208 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.879 and so they concluded it was a homicide, not just 209 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:17.279 a car accident. And so they did what they always do. 210 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.600 They came to investigate. They came to talk to the spouse. 211 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.559 So they interviewed the Reverend Maxwell, and they also went 212 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.799 and interviewed the neighbor, and Dorcas Anderson, who lived next 213 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.000 door to the reverend, said that she had spoken to 214 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:32.360 Mary Lou Maxwell that night. Mary Lou had told her 215 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.039 this business about the phone and about the revival, but 216 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.600 he also came back later and she said that her 217 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.679 husband had called and that he had been in a 218 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:41.799 car accident and she needed to go pick him up. 219 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.200 And that was a telling detail for the police because 220 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.039 what Dorcas told them was Mary Lou had been lured 221 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.039 to the very place where her own body would be 222 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.320 found and where her own car was found in what 223 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.799 was staged to be an accident. So that was the 224 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.559 beginning of the fraying story that the reverend provided and 225 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.120 the kind of weakness of his alibi. And to be 226 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.720 quite honest, that night, you know, already the police had 227 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.600 a sense that Dorcas was going to be their star 228 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.919 witness that you know, she disrupted his timeline. She provided 229 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.039 them with a narrative of events that made sense and 230 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.879 explained how Mary Lou ended up where she did that 231 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.120 night and why her husband was somehow involved. 232 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.200 You also talk about, and was very important and very 233 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:27.399 shocking and fascinating, is you talk about the American insurance 234 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:32.000 industry at the time. I won't ask the specific questions. 235 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.360 This tell us some a little bit of aspects of 236 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.159 this insurance industry at that time. 237 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.159 Yeah, sure, thing, I mean, I don't want to get 238 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.840 too far ahead because I think you're plotting our contrastation nicely, 239 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:47.399 and this is a complicated case. But you know what 240 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.639 ends up happening with Dorcas Anderson and the trial of 241 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.080 the Reverend Maxwell for the murder of his first wife, 242 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.480 is Dorcas changes her testimony and you know, it upsets 243 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.919 the police, that confuses the prosecution. But it turns out 244 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:04.000 not long after that trial she marries the reverend and 245 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.679 becomes the second Missus Maxwell. And I bring that up 246 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.080 on the subject of life insurance only because if the 247 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.399 reverend had only ever been accused of murdering his first wife, 248 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.360 this part of the story might not have been as relevant. 249 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.360 But it turns out he would eventually accused of killing 250 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.399 five family members, and the patterns such as it was 251 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.840 part of it was that he held these lucrative life 252 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.720 insurance policies on all of them. So that's the first 253 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:31.080 Missus Maxwell, that's the second Missus Maxwell. All the members 254 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.440 of his family who die under suspicious circumstances are ensured, 255 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.360 and he is the beneficiary on almost all of those policies. 256 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:42.080 And that's why life insurance becomes a huge part of 257 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.080 this story. And when I first found out about it's 258 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:47.159 about half a million dollars in life insurance that the 259 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:50.240 reverend was able to collect in the nineteen seventies, tremendous amount, 260 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.200 and not just one policy on each of these family members, 261 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:56.480 but in some cases a dozen policies on the same individual, 262 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.240 and the police believed executed without their consent, with out 263 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:02.759 their knowledge. And for me, as a journalist, there was 264 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.720 this straightforward question, well, how could he do it? You know, 265 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.039 I have a life insurance policy, my parents do, I 266 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.360 have a pology and my spouse. In order to do that, 267 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:14.279 you provide their social Security number, they get a medical exam. 268 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.200 You know, it's all above board, And I thought, well, 269 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.240 how could he do this? And the answer is, in 270 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:21.000 nineteen seventy, the life insurance industry was the wild West. 271 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:21.960 You know, these. 272 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.000 Standards that we all, if you've gone to get a 273 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.320 policy today, have to meet, and that the industry you. 274 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:28.200 Know, upholds. 275 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.679 A lot of those protections were responses to fraud. So 276 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:35.960 all of these, you know, the medical exam, the proof 277 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.519 of not of consent, and you know the the networks 278 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:43.559 by which these insurance companies make sure that someone is 279 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.759 not over insured or that they don't have an insurable interest, 280 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:48.960 meaning they don't have a reason to keep the person alive. 281 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.799 You know, I can't go, you know, take a policy 282 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.919 out on my nemesis. And then the insurance company would 283 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.759 say like, well, you know, well, big surprise, you have 284 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.519 a million dollar policy. But they've turned up and so 285 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:05.480 those standards didn't exist. So when the reverend executed all 286 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.360 these policies, you know, in some cases he would you know, 287 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.279 pull a little tag out of a magazine and it 288 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.840 would be like a little postcard, and all you needed 289 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.279 was the date of birth, a correspondence addressed, and a 290 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:19.480 little bit of biographical information. And because he was insuring 291 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.519 his family members, you know, from the company's perspective, it's 292 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:24.600 not suspicious that a son would want a policy on 293 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:27.000 his mother, or a husband on his wife, or a 294 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.720 father on his children. And so one by one he 295 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.000 was insuring through all these different companies. You know, the 296 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.039 policies were one thousand dollars here, three thousand dollars there, 297 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.440 maybe twenty five thousand dollars in the largest denomination, but 298 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.840 they added up pretty quickly. And you know, this, to me, 299 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:45.159 it's just one of these interesting fraud cases. I think straightforwardly, 300 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:47.360 when you get away with something, the temptation is to 301 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.360 do it over and over again. And piecing together what 302 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.799 the Reverend was able to do was fascinating. And there's 303 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.080 a photo in the book. At one point, you know, 304 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:56.799 I was able to get copies of a lot of 305 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.440 these policies because of some of the civil and criminal 306 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.919 litigation around the Reverend's activity. And at one point I 307 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.320 laid them out on my kitchen table, and there's a 308 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:07.480 photograph in the book. You know, again, we are talking 309 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.320 dozens and dozens of policies, and you can just see 310 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.679 they all have the same handwriting. You know, they're all 311 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.600 shooting his mailing address. So these people did not know 312 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:17.519 for the most part that he had even taken out 313 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.480 the policies on them. And in a couple of instances 314 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.200 when the companies like sever their connection, so a couple 315 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.840 of companies caught on, you know, when wife number two 316 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.720 died under the same circumstances, there were a couple of 317 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.480 companies who said, you know, that's it, we're canceling. We 318 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.360 will give you a refund on what you've paid in, 319 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.200 but we're terminating our relationship with you. And one of 320 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.679 those termination letters, you know, itemizes, nieces, nephews, and infant daughter. 321 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.440 You know, just a huge number of family members and 322 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:46.799 again no reason to believe any of them had any 323 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.639 idea that he held policies on them because he was 324 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.279 hiding the correspondent. You know, once or twice he got 325 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:54.559 tripped up, like one of the policies he tried to 326 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.159 take out on his mother, who was older by that point. 327 00:16:57.399 --> 00:16:59.879 You know, the company contacted her physician to say, like 328 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.279 is she in good health? Like is this a good policy? 329 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.480 And you know the doctor was like, she doesn't know 330 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:07.240 anything about it. So I you know, the fraud stuff 331 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:09.680 is very interesting to me, and it is a big 332 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.240 part of his story. And I think it's an interesting 333 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.079 part of his character because again this was, you know, 334 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:17.960 a black sharecropper born in the nineteen twenties and one 335 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.799 of the poorest counties in Alabama. And some of his 336 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.559 story is just the resourcefulness of you know, he was 337 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:28.599 an incredibly intelligent person with very limited opportunities for exercising 338 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.200 that intelligence. And you know, his lawyer, who was also 339 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.039 an army that you know, when Tom Radney, his lawyer, 340 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.519 joined the military, you know, he went into the jag Corps. 341 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:40.880 He got legal experience. He came home and opened a 342 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.920 law office, and you know, the Reverend Maxwell, who was awarded, 343 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.839 you know, a medal for good conduct in the army, 344 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.359 came home to no opportunities. So I think it's it's 345 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:53.640 just an interesting part of the story both how the 346 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.039 industry worked at the time, and you know, he was 347 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.720 not the only person who took advantage of the insurance 348 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.839 companies this way. There were other crimes, you know, none, 349 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.119 I don't think with quite this larger body count, but 350 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:08.519 certainly other examples of fraud. I mean, if you can 351 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.519 believe it, there was literally another Willie Maxwell, and that 352 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:13.960 one lived in Florida and he was caught up in 353 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.559 an insurance fraud scheme where they just dumped a body 354 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.559 and pretended it was you know, pretended it was him. 355 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:22.000 And then you know, the newspaper covers of that one 356 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.759 is like, you know, Lazarus, the sky rises again. But 357 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:27.160 the guy who was supposed to be pretending to be 358 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:29.440 dead kind of forgot and he got picked up on 359 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:32.279 a like a kind of lower rest carget. The area 360 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.039 is in prison, but he's supposed to be dead and 361 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.920 someone's collecting the policies on him. So you know, it's 362 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:38.920 just it really was the wild West, you know. And 363 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.480 if you've seen Double Indemnity or you know, any of 364 00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:45.200 these movies about the insurance industry, they're not documentaries, but 365 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:50.000 you know, they dramatize some of the irregularities in the industry. Now, again, 366 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.079 I always say, the book isn't a how to. You 367 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.319 cannot get away with this kind of stuff today. There 368 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.240 are standards and protections and all sorts of ways that 369 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:02.160 the companies try and regular people's participation in the in 370 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.640 the industry. But it's a financial market like anything else, 371 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.799 you know, it really is. It grew in response to 372 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:12.079 economic trends, and it's susceptible to fraud the way any 373 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.200 financial market is. 374 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:20.599 Let's talk about Tom Radney. He represents Maxwell in his 375 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.960 civil suits and his criminal charges, but he also represents 376 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:29.279 someone called Ophelia Burns. Tell us who Aphelia Burns is, 377 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.839 and that'll be important a little bit later. And talk 378 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.200 about the marriage with Dorcas Anderson. 379 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.079 Yeah, so I tipped hand a little bit earlier. And 380 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.799 you know Dorcas Anderson, the next door neighbor, who again 381 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:45.720 the police are just convinced is going to be their 382 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.240 star witness. When they finally bring this murder charge against 383 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.119 the Reverend Maxwell, you know, they're between a rock and 384 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.039 a hard place. This guy is aggrieving widower. You know, 385 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.200 he's an upstanding reverend. He strikes the curious pose in 386 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.000 court and lo and behold the next door neighbor who's 387 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.920 supposed to blow a hole in his alibi instead provides 388 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.759 him with one. And so Dorcas Anderson, she was married 389 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.119 at the time, but her husband died of als and 390 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:14.720 you know, look in the way that rumor and innuendo 391 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.400 and gossip can grow, a lot of things were said 392 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:19.480 about the reverends and how he got away with all this. 393 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:21.759 And one of the things that was said was, you know, 394 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.359 he was a voodoo practitioner and he could get whatever 395 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.319 he wanted, and he could, you know, hexa jury and 396 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:31.519 charm anyone. And so those rumors included Dorcas's husband, who 397 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.960 did you know, in some ways die at a convenient time, 398 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.680 you know, just when she was planning to marry the reverend. 399 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.839 So she's the second missus Maxwell. She is also found 400 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.440 dead in what appears to be a car accident, although 401 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:50.640