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<v Speaker 1>This is an awful story.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, I god.

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<v Speaker 1>I like because we were Keanu gave us a story

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<v Speaker 1>earlier in the week, which was yesterday. It's been a

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<v Speaker 1>long one and I was just kind of like just

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<v Speaker 1>reading through the beginning parts of it about this couple

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<v Speaker 1>in Toronto and they sound lovely and a normal couple

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<v Speaker 1>that you'd be friends with, and the kids and the

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<v Speaker 1>careers and everything, and okay, it ends in murder, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's so interesting when you know what the details are,

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<v Speaker 1>but when you dig in to the specific details of

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<v Speaker 1>the details, how sad and dark it gets.

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<v Speaker 2>This is one of those things I got there.

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<v Speaker 3>There's an aspect of these stories when we do our

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<v Speaker 3>true Crime Tuesday stories, there's an aspect of it that

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<v Speaker 3>is the worst of humanity. I mean, there's a there's

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<v Speaker 3>a darkness to some of these stories.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just it's it's scary because you look at these

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<v Speaker 1>people and you hear about them, and they seem normal.

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<v Speaker 1>And like we said, class, why do we murder? Love

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<v Speaker 1>and money?

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<v Speaker 2>Usually?

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<v Speaker 1>Right, this one's got both of those things. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just psychopaths that murder people ordinary. That's what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's what fascinates us about true crime

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<v Speaker 1>as you've got ordinary people living ordinary lives, and sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>they're the victim of a horrendous murder, and sometimes they're

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<v Speaker 1>the perpetrator, and you're thinking, in both cases, how could

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<v Speaker 1>this person carry this out? Or how could this person

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<v Speaker 1>fall prey to this?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, and they point out in this and I think

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<v Speaker 3>this is kind of your point, is that we like

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<v Speaker 3>to say that anybody who kills is crazy, right, you

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<v Speaker 3>have to be a certain level of crazy to take

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<v Speaker 3>another person's life. But there are studies that show that

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of us, a lot of ninety one percent

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<v Speaker 3>of men, eighty four percent of women, say that they've

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<v Speaker 3>had a vivid fantasy of killing someone, and that many

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<v Speaker 3>people have confessed that they would actually that they even

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<v Speaker 3>played out specific scenarios in their heads, imagining themselves stabbing

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<v Speaker 3>or shooting or strangler or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>But here's where the difference is.

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<v Speaker 3>The cutoff is that the vast majority of us, if

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<v Speaker 3>we ever have those thoughts, then think to ourselves, I

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<v Speaker 3>could never do that.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be crazy. Not I mean I.

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<v Speaker 1>Say that, I probably say that every day I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>kill somebody, or I'm gonna kill I'm gonna kill this person,

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<v Speaker 1>and it changes from day to day, moment to moment,

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<v Speaker 1>but I never actually think practically I'm gonna kill them.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that what you're saying? That? What is it? Ninety

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<v Speaker 1>eighty four percent?

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<v Speaker 3>What was that? Ninety one percent of men, eighty four

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<v Speaker 3>percent of women said that they've actually.

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<v Speaker 1>Think about the manner in which they'd kill somebody.

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<v Speaker 3>Again, not that I think that's a step too far,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just the they've had a vivid moment of fantasy

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<v Speaker 3>of killing someone. But then the vast majority of us go,

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<v Speaker 3>I could never do that. And that's where it ends

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<v Speaker 3>for most people, is that I've never thought about how

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<v Speaker 3>to kill somebody. I've never thought about like, am I

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<v Speaker 3>going to strangle them or stab them?

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<v Speaker 1>Like? That's crazy? That's the next level, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>But you haven't thought about how to get away with it?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 2>I have not. Oh you haven't.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh No, maybe I took step two and then I

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<v Speaker 3>decided that that would be crazy. Now this couple, in fact, Jacob,

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<v Speaker 3>just so you know, we're not even gonna play the

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<v Speaker 3>thing just because I don't want to. I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to make fun of this story, because it is there

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<v Speaker 3>are some pretty dark elements to it.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's just get into who these people are. James

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<v Speaker 1>Schwam born into a great family, grandparents, devout Christians. They

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<v Speaker 1>ran a nice foundation, they were very into education, they

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<v Speaker 1>ran hospice care, addiction recovery treatment. I'm just just a

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<v Speaker 1>really great family. And he was a firefighter. He had

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<v Speaker 1>been promoted by the early twenty tens to acting captain.

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<v Speaker 1>He was an effective leader, they say. The people that

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<v Speaker 1>worked with him, quick, decisive when responding to calls on

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<v Speaker 1>his watch. The workplace was jovial, supportive. He was the

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<v Speaker 1>guy that would grow out his mustache for November. He

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<v Speaker 1>was just that guy, you know. He was the firehouse guy,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was great at what he did and he

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<v Speaker 1>was good for the community.

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<v Speaker 3>Ashley, on the other hand, she grew up in Toronto.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not that she didn't have money, it was just

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<v Speaker 3>a different kind of family. She was an avid hiker,

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<v Speaker 3>very athletic tennis player, piakers fan, a warm young woman

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<v Speaker 3>with an electric smile. Her mom died of cancer when

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<v Speaker 3>she was younger, when Ashley was younger, in two thousand

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<v Speaker 3>and four. But they said Ashley was the glue that

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<v Speaker 3>kind of held the family together. She had a reputation

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<v Speaker 3>for lending support, but without the sugar coating. So her

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<v Speaker 3>three siblings, the cousins, and all these friends would come

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<v Speaker 3>to her in the event that they had ever had

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<v Speaker 3>a fight within the family. She was the one that

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<v Speaker 3>would would smooth everything over. She would dole out wisdom.

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<v Speaker 3>Friend said that Ashley was someone you could talk to

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<v Speaker 3>about what was going on in your life. She would

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<v Speaker 3>sing and dance around the house. She talked about buying

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<v Speaker 3>a farm. She wanted to start an animal sanctuary. She

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<v Speaker 3>lit up the room when she walked in.

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<v Speaker 2>She was a good, good person.

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<v Speaker 3>And that laugh is kind of what originally caught Jamie's attention.

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<v Speaker 3>He and Ashley were skiing together. They would grab drinks

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<v Speaker 3>in the city of Toronto, and they started doing the

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<v Speaker 3>thing that you do when you're young and you're serious,

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<v Speaker 3>and you go, what would it be like to be married?

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<v Speaker 1>So they dream of having kids. They end up buying

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<v Speaker 1>their first house together, a new building Collingwood. They got engaged.

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<v Speaker 1>They had this beautiful wedding, Ashley saying that she felt

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<v Speaker 1>like a princess was picturesque. She arrived in a horse

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<v Speaker 1>drawn carriage to the wedding.

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<v Speaker 2>The whole bit.

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<v Speaker 1>The next several years went as they plant. James promoted

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<v Speaker 1>full time to fire captain, She des homes. They got

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<v Speaker 1>a dog, Rocco. They started a family versus a son

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<v Speaker 1>and a daughter, moved into a bigger house that backed

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<v Speaker 1>into a hiking trail, which they enjoyed. Everything that they

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<v Speaker 1>had planned in those early dates that you spoke of.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but it's not always sunshine and puppy dogs, because

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<v Speaker 3>life can be a grind sometimes, and they found that out.

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<v Speaker 3>The managing of the household expenses, the kids and their extracurriculars,

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<v Speaker 3>the long commutes, the long hours firefighters are doing twenty

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<v Speaker 3>four hours on maybe seventy two off, and that can

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<v Speaker 3>take a toll as well. And every once in a while,

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<v Speaker 3>kind of as a hobby, he would take a job

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<v Speaker 3>at a small engine shop and kind of keep himself busy.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Ashley kept herself busy. She took a new job

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<v Speaker 1>at a company that constructs custom homes cottages Gichalaise, and

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<v Speaker 1>she started hanging out with her boss and hooking up

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<v Speaker 1>with her boss. Yeah, about six months after she started

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<v Speaker 1>working there, they began an affair. And now, as you

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<v Speaker 1>can imagine, with the custom home market on the road

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. They're visiting projects, plenty of time for their

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<v Speaker 1>extra curriculars. For a few months, James and this guy's wife,

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<v Speaker 1>Alexandra had no idea, but then they found out Alexandra

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<v Speaker 1>files for divorce. James and Ashley think they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>work things out. She finds a new job, thank god.

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<v Speaker 1>They start going to couples counseling, individual therapy, but James.

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<v Speaker 1>It's taking a toll on James, and then his temperament

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<v Speaker 1>at work begins to show cracks. He starts treating people

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<v Speaker 1>with condescension. He's drinking more than usual, He's distant, he's

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<v Speaker 1>self involved. But they're like, you know what, We're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>give him some slack. The rigors of the job and everything.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just a lot. Maybe he'll come around. He's just

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<v Speaker 1>going through a phase. But then it gets worse. He

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<v Speaker 1>tells his mom in twenty twenty two, around Christmas, he

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't think he and Ashley are going to make it. She,

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time, is telling her family that she's

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<v Speaker 1>thinking about leaving James.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, that's roughly the time that James started hooking up

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<v Speaker 3>with the original guy's wife. Remember when Ashley started an

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<v Speaker 3>affair with her boss. The boss's wife filed for divorce.

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<v Speaker 3>James kept her and con kept in contact with her

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<v Speaker 3>and they wanted to start a little something. His marriage

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't working. He said that he was going to make

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<v Speaker 3>a decision. He's going to do what would make him happy.

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<v Speaker 1>James is weighing his options. He's thinking staying with Ashley,

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<v Speaker 1>this is an untenable situation, but divorce. I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to untangle myself financially, custody of the kids, all of

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<v Speaker 1>that stuff. So he started desperately thinking to find another

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<v Speaker 1>way out.

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<v Speaker 3>Telling you a story of James Schwam, firefighter from a

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<v Speaker 3>good family up in the Toronto area and the Blue

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<v Speaker 3>Mountains in Ontario. His wife of several years, Ashley Milns,

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<v Speaker 3>ends up having an affair with her boss. They decide

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<v Speaker 3>to stick it out and actually try to get try

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<v Speaker 3>to get things back on track, but after about a

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<v Speaker 3>year or so, they decide that they're going to go

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<v Speaker 3>their separate ways. She has confided to her family she's

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<v Speaker 3>thinking about leaving him. He ends up starting an affair

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<v Speaker 3>with the boss's ex wife at the time and doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>want to get a divorce. Told a friend that a

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<v Speaker 3>divorce was unimaginable. Well, he set in motion a very

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<v Speaker 3>strange plan. Among other things, he walked over to his

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<v Speaker 3>mom's house at one point she lived nearby, and decided

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<v Speaker 3>to take mom's car and park it at the elementary school.

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<v Speaker 2>That's weird.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the morning of January twenty fifth, everything's normal, kids

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<v Speaker 3>get ready for school, Ashley goes to work, She goes out,

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<v Speaker 3>walks the dog.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, he goes to work. She goes out, walks the dog.

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<v Speaker 3>Several hours later, at nighttime, they're arguing and one of

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<v Speaker 3>the kids wakes up.

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<v Speaker 2>Who's then?

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<v Speaker 3>He's then nine, sees mom and dad. Ashley asks him

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<v Speaker 3>to go into her bedroom and fetch her phone so

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<v Speaker 3>she could call the police. Ashley never got the chance

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<v Speaker 3>to call nine one one. The son goes back to

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<v Speaker 3>the bedroom, James grabs her and strangles her to death.

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<v Speaker 3>At one point, one of the kids hears dad say

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<v Speaker 3>what time is it, Alexa, And as he remembers it,

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<v Speaker 3>the speaker said three am. And sometime in the next

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<v Speaker 3>two hours, James had dressed Ashley in hiking clothes, put

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<v Speaker 3>her in her car, and taken her out to a trailhead.

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<v Speaker 1>Now imagine that just all the work, I mean horrific

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<v Speaker 1>murder in this all happening in front of the children,

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<v Speaker 1>and all of that aside, all of the the work

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<v Speaker 1>and the orchestration that goes into this.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the planning, even if you did it in a

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<v Speaker 3>moment of passion and then to have the wherewithal to

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<v Speaker 3>do all of this. He was sending text messages using

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<v Speaker 3>her phone to him, Hey, I'm leaving Alcia soon. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>gonna zip out. I think the kids are fine sleeping.

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<v Speaker 3>Sorry about yelling at you. My hikes are important.

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<v Speaker 1>So even if you had premeditated all that and doing

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<v Speaker 1>all that, actually doing it, you would think would paralyze you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>He drives her car to a parking lot, cracks open

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<v Speaker 3>the window, douses it with gasoline, ends up pushing it

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<v Speaker 3>or driving it off.

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<v Speaker 2>Of a road, walks down the road.

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<v Speaker 3>Remember this is Toronto in January, so there's snow all

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<v Speaker 3>over the place, leaving footprints. Throws a lighter inside the truck,

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<v Speaker 3>burns the whole thing up. She's inside, crumpled in a

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<v Speaker 3>ball in the footwell on the passenger side. When they

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<v Speaker 3>find it, that's mysterious. They also find his initials on

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<v Speaker 3>the light that was used to start the fire. He meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 3>had gone back to the elementary school, picked up mom's car,

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<v Speaker 3>grabbed the kids, Hey kids, everybody's having fun, good breakfast,

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<v Speaker 3>and then takes them to school. It was work that

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<v Speaker 3>originally reported that she hadn't shown up, and he had

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<v Speaker 3>gone to work as well, And that's kind of where

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<v Speaker 3>they caught up with him.

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<v Speaker 1>Him calling her parents and faking tears, saying that the

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<v Speaker 1>daughter had died in a plane, rid the fact a

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<v Speaker 1>car wrect, the fact that he didn't think that the

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<v Speaker 1>police could do the forensic investigation of his phone and everything,

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<v Speaker 1>and realizing that he had a motive in all this,

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<v Speaker 1>and it being relatively small town where everybody knew everyone's business,

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<v Speaker 1>and everyone knew what was going on with Ashley, and

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<v Speaker 1>with this marriage and everything, you thought that you'd hide it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, just even if and the cell.

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<v Speaker 1>Phone tracking that exists these days, knowing where those text

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<v Speaker 1>messages came from and the time of day they were

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<v Speaker 1>sent and everything.

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<v Speaker 3>And everybody, the ubiquity of doorbell cameras. I mean, there

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<v Speaker 3>were people that saw him literally walking away from the

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<v Speaker 3>flaming vehicle early that morning, I mean, running out there

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<v Speaker 3>in the wilderness when no one should have been out there.

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<v Speaker 3>It would have been way too cold anyway, And friends

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<v Speaker 3>who said there's no way that she would go hiking

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<v Speaker 3>pre dawn, that's not what she did. She would always

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<v Speaker 3>wait until after the kids were at school. She would

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<v Speaker 3>wait until a daytime because she knew that that was

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<v Speaker 3>the safe way to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>What a mess all the way around. He, by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>has been in custody now since February of twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>attempted suicide multiple times.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh which, by the way, the attorneys that are representing

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<v Speaker 3>him have said that that is proof that he's remorseful

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<v Speaker 3>and shouldn't stay in prison for very long.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, lawyers will say anything, right God Lord.

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<v Speaker 3>In Canada, they don't have the death penalty, So the

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<v Speaker 3>judge decided that he should be in prison, eligible four

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<v Speaker 3>parole after twenty one years.

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<v Speaker 2>What an awful person.

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<v Speaker 1>Just get a divorce. Just get a divorce. You know

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<v Speaker 1>what's cheaper divorce than living murder?

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<v Speaker 2>A divorce.

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<v Speaker 3>The kids, by the way, are living with her younger brother,

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<v Speaker 3>apparently a young couple that had gotten married.

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<v Speaker 2>So now they have kids.

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<v Speaker 1>How old are the kids now?

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<v Speaker 2>They would only be like ten and seven. According to

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<v Speaker 2>the Mask.

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<v Speaker 1>That's horrific. Well, see, Canadians aren't all good guys. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the moral of the story.