Speaker 1: This is an awful story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I god.
Speaker 1: I like because we were Keanu gave us a story
Speaker 1: earlier in the week, which was yesterday. It's been a
Speaker 1: long one and I was just kind of like just
Speaker 1: reading through the beginning parts of it about this couple
Speaker 1: in Toronto and they sound lovely and a normal couple
Speaker 1: that you'd be friends with, and the kids and the
Speaker 1: careers and everything, and okay, it ends in murder, and
Speaker 1: it's it's so interesting when you know what the details are,
Speaker 1: but when you dig in to the specific details of
Speaker 1: the details, how sad and dark it gets.
Speaker 2: This is one of those things I got there.
Speaker 3: There's an aspect of these stories when we do our
Speaker 3: true Crime Tuesday stories, there's an aspect of it that
Speaker 3: is the worst of humanity. I mean, there's a there's
Speaker 3: a darkness to some of these stories.
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's scary because you look at these
Speaker 1: people and you hear about them, and they seem normal.
Speaker 1: And like we said, class, why do we murder? Love
Speaker 1: and money?
Speaker 2: Usually?
Speaker 1: Right, this one's got both of those things. But it's
Speaker 1: not just psychopaths that murder people ordinary. That's what it is.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what fascinates us about true crime
Speaker 1: as you've got ordinary people living ordinary lives, and sometimes
Speaker 1: they're the victim of a horrendous murder, and sometimes they're
Speaker 1: the perpetrator, and you're thinking, in both cases, how could
Speaker 1: this person carry this out? Or how could this person
Speaker 1: fall prey to this?
Speaker 3: Well, and they point out in this and I think
Speaker 3: this is kind of your point, is that we like
Speaker 3: to say that anybody who kills is crazy, right, you
Speaker 3: have to be a certain level of crazy to take
Speaker 3: another person's life. But there are studies that show that
Speaker 3: a lot of us, a lot of ninety one percent
Speaker 3: of men, eighty four percent of women, say that they've
Speaker 3: had a vivid fantasy of killing someone, and that many
Speaker 3: people have confessed that they would actually that they even
Speaker 3: played out specific scenarios in their heads, imagining themselves stabbing
Speaker 3: or shooting or strangler or whatever.
Speaker 2: But here's where the difference is.
Speaker 3: The cutoff is that the vast majority of us, if
Speaker 3: we ever have those thoughts, then think to ourselves, I
Speaker 3: could never do that.
Speaker 2: That would be crazy. Not I mean I.
Speaker 1: Say that, I probably say that every day I'm gonna
Speaker 1: kill somebody, or I'm gonna kill I'm gonna kill this person,
Speaker 1: and it changes from day to day, moment to moment,
Speaker 1: but I never actually think practically I'm gonna kill them.
Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? That? What is it? Ninety
Speaker 1: eighty four percent?
Speaker 3: What was that? Ninety one percent of men, eighty four
Speaker 3: percent of women said that they've actually.
Speaker 1: Think about the manner in which they'd kill somebody.
Speaker 3: Again, not that I think that's a step too far,
Speaker 3: it's just the they've had a vivid moment of fantasy
Speaker 3: of killing someone. But then the vast majority of us go,
Speaker 3: I could never do that. And that's where it ends
Speaker 3: for most people, is that I've never thought about how
Speaker 3: to kill somebody. I've never thought about like, am I
Speaker 3: going to strangle them or stab them?
Speaker 1: Like? That's crazy? That's the next level, isn't it.
Speaker 2: But you haven't thought about how to get away with it?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I have not. Oh you haven't.
Speaker 3: Uh No, maybe I took step two and then I
Speaker 3: decided that that would be crazy. Now this couple, in fact, Jacob,
Speaker 3: just so you know, we're not even gonna play the
Speaker 3: thing just because I don't want to. I don't want
Speaker 3: to make fun of this story, because it is there
Speaker 3: are some pretty dark elements to it.
Speaker 1: So let's just get into who these people are. James
Speaker 1: Schwam born into a great family, grandparents, devout Christians. They
Speaker 1: ran a nice foundation, they were very into education, they
Speaker 1: ran hospice care, addiction recovery treatment. I'm just just a
Speaker 1: really great family. And he was a firefighter. He had
Speaker 1: been promoted by the early twenty tens to acting captain.
Speaker 1: He was an effective leader, they say. The people that
Speaker 1: worked with him, quick, decisive when responding to calls on
Speaker 1: his watch. The workplace was jovial, supportive. He was the
Speaker 1: guy that would grow out his mustache for November. He
Speaker 1: was just that guy, you know. He was the firehouse guy,
Speaker 1: and he was great at what he did and he
Speaker 1: was good for the community.
Speaker 3: Ashley, on the other hand, she grew up in Toronto.
Speaker 3: It's not that she didn't have money, it was just
Speaker 3: a different kind of family. She was an avid hiker,
Speaker 3: very athletic tennis player, piakers fan, a warm young woman
Speaker 3: with an electric smile. Her mom died of cancer when
Speaker 3: she was younger, when Ashley was younger, in two thousand
Speaker 3: and four. But they said Ashley was the glue that
Speaker 3: kind of held the family together. She had a reputation
Speaker 3: for lending support, but without the sugar coating. So her
Speaker 3: three siblings, the cousins, and all these friends would come
Speaker 3: to her in the event that they had ever had
Speaker 3: a fight within the family. She was the one that
Speaker 3: would would smooth everything over. She would dole out wisdom.
Speaker 3: Friend said that Ashley was someone you could talk to
Speaker 3: about what was going on in your life. She would
Speaker 3: sing and dance around the house. She talked about buying
Speaker 3: a farm. She wanted to start an animal sanctuary. She
Speaker 3: lit up the room when she walked in.
Speaker 2: She was a good, good person.
Speaker 3: And that laugh is kind of what originally caught Jamie's attention.
Speaker 3: He and Ashley were skiing together. They would grab drinks
Speaker 3: in the city of Toronto, and they started doing the
Speaker 3: thing that you do when you're young and you're serious,
Speaker 3: and you go, what would it be like to be married?
Speaker 1: So they dream of having kids. They end up buying
Speaker 1: their first house together, a new building Collingwood. They got engaged.
Speaker 1: They had this beautiful wedding, Ashley saying that she felt
Speaker 1: like a princess was picturesque. She arrived in a horse
Speaker 1: drawn carriage to the wedding.
Speaker 2: The whole bit.
Speaker 1: The next several years went as they plant. James promoted
Speaker 1: full time to fire captain, She des homes. They got
Speaker 1: a dog, Rocco. They started a family versus a son
Speaker 1: and a daughter, moved into a bigger house that backed
Speaker 1: into a hiking trail, which they enjoyed. Everything that they
Speaker 1: had planned in those early dates that you spoke of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's not always sunshine and puppy dogs, because
Speaker 3: life can be a grind sometimes, and they found that out.
Speaker 3: The managing of the household expenses, the kids and their extracurriculars,
Speaker 3: the long commutes, the long hours firefighters are doing twenty
Speaker 3: four hours on maybe seventy two off, and that can
Speaker 3: take a toll as well. And every once in a while,
Speaker 3: kind of as a hobby, he would take a job
Speaker 3: at a small engine shop and kind of keep himself busy.
Speaker 1: Well, Ashley kept herself busy. She took a new job
Speaker 1: at a company that constructs custom homes cottages Gichalaise, and
Speaker 1: she started hanging out with her boss and hooking up
Speaker 1: with her boss. Yeah, about six months after she started
Speaker 1: working there, they began an affair. And now, as you
Speaker 1: can imagine, with the custom home market on the road
Speaker 1: a lot. They're visiting projects, plenty of time for their
Speaker 1: extra curriculars. For a few months, James and this guy's wife,
Speaker 1: Alexandra had no idea, but then they found out Alexandra
Speaker 1: files for divorce. James and Ashley think they're going to
Speaker 1: work things out. She finds a new job, thank god.
Speaker 1: They start going to couples counseling, individual therapy, but James.
Speaker 1: It's taking a toll on James, and then his temperament
Speaker 1: at work begins to show cracks. He starts treating people
Speaker 1: with condescension. He's drinking more than usual, He's distant, he's
Speaker 1: self involved. But they're like, you know what, We're gonna
Speaker 1: give him some slack. The rigors of the job and everything.
Speaker 1: It's just a lot. Maybe he'll come around. He's just
Speaker 1: going through a phase. But then it gets worse. He
Speaker 1: tells his mom in twenty twenty two, around Christmas, he
Speaker 1: doesn't think he and Ashley are going to make it. She,
Speaker 1: at the same time, is telling her family that she's
Speaker 1: thinking about leaving James.
Speaker 3: Well, that's roughly the time that James started hooking up
Speaker 3: with the original guy's wife. Remember when Ashley started an
Speaker 3: affair with her boss. The boss's wife filed for divorce.
Speaker 3: James kept her and con kept in contact with her
Speaker 3: and they wanted to start a little something. His marriage
Speaker 3: wasn't working. He said that he was going to make
Speaker 3: a decision. He's going to do what would make him happy.
Speaker 1: James is weighing his options. He's thinking staying with Ashley,
Speaker 1: this is an untenable situation, but divorce. I don't want
Speaker 1: to untangle myself financially, custody of the kids, all of
Speaker 1: that stuff. So he started desperately thinking to find another
Speaker 1: way out.
Speaker 3: Telling you a story of James Schwam, firefighter from a
Speaker 3: good family up in the Toronto area and the Blue
Speaker 3: Mountains in Ontario. His wife of several years, Ashley Milns,
Speaker 3: ends up having an affair with her boss. They decide
Speaker 3: to stick it out and actually try to get try
Speaker 3: to get things back on track, but after about a
Speaker 3: year or so, they decide that they're going to go
Speaker 3: their separate ways. She has confided to her family she's
Speaker 3: thinking about leaving him. He ends up starting an affair
Speaker 3: with the boss's ex wife at the time and doesn't
Speaker 3: want to get a divorce. Told a friend that a
Speaker 3: divorce was unimaginable. Well, he set in motion a very
Speaker 3: strange plan. Among other things, he walked over to his
Speaker 3: mom's house at one point she lived nearby, and decided
Speaker 3: to take mom's car and park it at the elementary school.
Speaker 2: That's weird.
Speaker 3: Well, the morning of January twenty fifth, everything's normal, kids
Speaker 3: get ready for school, Ashley goes to work, She goes out,
Speaker 3: walks the dog.
Speaker 2: Sorry, he goes to work. She goes out, walks the dog.
Speaker 3: Several hours later, at nighttime, they're arguing and one of
Speaker 3: the kids wakes up.
Speaker 2: Who's then?
Speaker 3: He's then nine, sees mom and dad. Ashley asks him
Speaker 3: to go into her bedroom and fetch her phone so
Speaker 3: she could call the police. Ashley never got the chance
Speaker 3: to call nine one one. The son goes back to
Speaker 3: the bedroom, James grabs her and strangles her to death.
Speaker 3: At one point, one of the kids hears dad say
Speaker 3: what time is it, Alexa, And as he remembers it,
Speaker 3: the speaker said three am. And sometime in the next
Speaker 3: two hours, James had dressed Ashley in hiking clothes, put
Speaker 3: her in her car, and taken her out to a trailhead.
Speaker 1: Now imagine that just all the work, I mean horrific
Speaker 1: murder in this all happening in front of the children,
Speaker 1: and all of that aside, all of the the work
Speaker 1: and the orchestration that goes into this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the planning, even if you did it in a
Speaker 3: moment of passion and then to have the wherewithal to
Speaker 3: do all of this. He was sending text messages using
Speaker 3: her phone to him, Hey, I'm leaving Alcia soon. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna zip out. I think the kids are fine sleeping.
Speaker 3: Sorry about yelling at you. My hikes are important.
Speaker 1: So even if you had premeditated all that and doing
Speaker 1: all that, actually doing it, you would think would paralyze you.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: He drives her car to a parking lot, cracks open
Speaker 3: the window, douses it with gasoline, ends up pushing it
Speaker 3: or driving it off.
Speaker 2: Of a road, walks down the road.
Speaker 3: Remember this is Toronto in January, so there's snow all
Speaker 3: over the place, leaving footprints. Throws a lighter inside the truck,
Speaker 3: burns the whole thing up. She's inside, crumpled in a
Speaker 3: ball in the footwell on the passenger side. When they
Speaker 3: find it, that's mysterious. They also find his initials on
Speaker 3: the light that was used to start the fire. He meanwhile,
Speaker 3: had gone back to the elementary school, picked up mom's car,
Speaker 3: grabbed the kids, Hey kids, everybody's having fun, good breakfast,
Speaker 3: and then takes them to school. It was work that
Speaker 3: originally reported that she hadn't shown up, and he had
Speaker 3: gone to work as well, And that's kind of where
Speaker 3: they caught up with him.
Speaker 1: Him calling her parents and faking tears, saying that the
Speaker 1: daughter had died in a plane, rid the fact a
Speaker 1: car wrect, the fact that he didn't think that the
Speaker 1: police could do the forensic investigation of his phone and everything,
Speaker 1: and realizing that he had a motive in all this,
Speaker 1: and it being relatively small town where everybody knew everyone's business,
Speaker 1: and everyone knew what was going on with Ashley, and
Speaker 1: with this marriage and everything, you thought that you'd hide it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, just even if and the cell.
Speaker 1: Phone tracking that exists these days, knowing where those text
Speaker 1: messages came from and the time of day they were
Speaker 1: sent and everything.
Speaker 3: And everybody, the ubiquity of doorbell cameras. I mean, there
Speaker 3: were people that saw him literally walking away from the
Speaker 3: flaming vehicle early that morning, I mean, running out there
Speaker 3: in the wilderness when no one should have been out there.
Speaker 3: It would have been way too cold anyway, And friends
Speaker 3: who said there's no way that she would go hiking
Speaker 3: pre dawn, that's not what she did. She would always
Speaker 3: wait until after the kids were at school. She would
Speaker 3: wait until a daytime because she knew that that was
Speaker 3: the safe way to do it.
Speaker 1: What a mess all the way around. He, by the way,
Speaker 1: has been in custody now since February of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: attempted suicide multiple times.
Speaker 3: Oh which, by the way, the attorneys that are representing
Speaker 3: him have said that that is proof that he's remorseful
Speaker 3: and shouldn't stay in prison for very long.
Speaker 1: Well, lawyers will say anything, right God Lord.
Speaker 3: In Canada, they don't have the death penalty, So the
Speaker 3: judge decided that he should be in prison, eligible four
Speaker 3: parole after twenty one years.
Speaker 2: What an awful person.
Speaker 1: Just get a divorce. Just get a divorce. You know
Speaker 1: what's cheaper divorce than living murder?
Speaker 2: A divorce.
Speaker 3: The kids, by the way, are living with her younger brother,
Speaker 3: apparently a young couple that had gotten married.
Speaker 2: So now they have kids.
Speaker 1: How old are the kids now?
Speaker 2: They would only be like ten and seven. According to
Speaker 2: the Mask.
Speaker 1: That's horrific. Well, see, Canadians aren't all good guys. That's
Speaker 1: the moral of the story.