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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part three

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<v Speaker 1>of our series on the unsolved disappearance of Ray Greecar. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up when we talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in our previous two episodes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, like I've said many times, this is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the most famous missing persons cases of the modern era

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<v Speaker 2>because Ray Greecar was a prosecuting attorney in CenTra County

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<v Speaker 2>who had a long and storied career and was planning

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<v Speaker 2>to retire at the end of two thousand and five.

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<v Speaker 2>But while he was fifty nine years old, in April

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<v Speaker 2>of that year, he decided to go on a road

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<v Speaker 2>trip to a town called Lewisbourg, located about sixty miles

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<v Speaker 2>away from where he lived, and he said he was

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<v Speaker 2>going to go antique shopping, but he never returned home.

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<v Speaker 2>His abandoned car was found park near an antique shop,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was no sign of Ray. But there were

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<v Speaker 2>a number of strange clues, like cigarette ash found near

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<v Speaker 2>his vehicle, and it appeared that the interior of his

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<v Speaker 2>car had been wiped clean of fingerprints. A couple months later,

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<v Speaker 2>they found his county issued work laptop in a nearby river,

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<v Speaker 2>and a couple months after that, they found a hard

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<v Speaker 2>drive which had been removed from the laptop, and Ray

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<v Speaker 2>had apparently made some Google searches about how to destroy

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<v Speaker 2>a laptop, how to destroy a hard drive, how to

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<v Speaker 2>get water damage on a laptop, and a hard drive,

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<v Speaker 2>which makes cause speculation that Ray may have tossed it

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<v Speaker 2>in there himself, or alternatively, someone else tossed it in

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<v Speaker 2>the water because there was something on there that they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want anyone to find. Their speculation that Ray's death

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<v Speaker 2>may have been a suicide because yours earlier, his brother

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<v Speaker 2>had decided to end his own life by jumping off

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<v Speaker 2>a bridge into a body of water, so the respeculation

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<v Speaker 2>that Ray may have done the same thing and they

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<v Speaker 2>just never found his body. But there's also been a

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<v Speaker 2>number of theories involving foul play, and one of the

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<v Speaker 2>most prominent involves the infamous Penn State scandal, where assistant

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<v Speaker 2>football coach Jerry Sandusky was charged and convicted of sexually

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<v Speaker 2>abusing a number of young boys, and his actions were

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<v Speaker 2>covered up for decades, causing an immense amount of controversy,

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<v Speaker 2>and Ray, in nineteen ninety eight, seven years before he

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<v Speaker 2>went missing, have been asked to look into an incident

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<v Speaker 2>where Sandusky had allegedly groped a young boy in the shower,

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<v Speaker 2>but he felt that there was not enough evidence to

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<v Speaker 2>press charges, so the whole matter came to an end.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's been speculation that maybe Ray was digging deeper

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<v Speaker 2>into the Sandusky allegations and that he could have been

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<v Speaker 2>murdered in order to cover the whole thing up. And

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<v Speaker 2>we also talked to in our last episode about a

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<v Speaker 2>podcast that was released a few years ago called Final

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<v Speaker 2>Argument The Disappearance of Ray Greekar, in which the host

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<v Speaker 2>promised that she was going to have these earth shattering

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<v Speaker 2>revelations was pointed to being the victim of foul play

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<v Speaker 2>and was going to reveal them on her final episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were never released, and she pretty much stopped

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<v Speaker 2>communicating with everyone and ghosting the listeners of the podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>so we really have no idea what she may have found.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of an intriguing mystery within a mystery,

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<v Speaker 2>and all we know for certain is that twenty years

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<v Speaker 2>have now passed and we still don't know what happened

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<v Speaker 2>to Ray Grigar. So now we're going to spend the

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<v Speaker 2>rest of this series discussing whether Ray's death was a

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<v Speaker 2>suicide or if he was the victim of foul play.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though Ray's loved ones insisted that he had no

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<v Speaker 2>outward signs of depression or that he was feeling suicidal,

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<v Speaker 2>we can't deny the fact that the press people sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>don't give off any warning signs and keep all the

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<v Speaker 2>pain they're experiencing bottled up inside. Therefore, when their suicide

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<v Speaker 2>does take place, it takes everyone by complete surprise. Ray

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<v Speaker 2>was described as being a very private and reserved person

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<v Speaker 2>and does not strike me as someone who would be

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<v Speaker 2>open to discussing any mental health struggles he might have experienced.

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<v Speaker 2>Many people acknowledged that in the week's prior to his disappearance,

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<v Speaker 2>Ray seemed fatigued and was napping a lot more than usual,

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<v Speaker 2>and excessive sleep can definitely be a sign of depression. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>a new detail I had learned during the Final Argument podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>which I did not know before, is that Ray had

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<v Speaker 2>scheduled a number of future appointments and engagements on his

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<v Speaker 2>office desk calendar which were weeks and even months into

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<v Speaker 2>the future, which do not seem like the actions of

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<v Speaker 2>someone who was planning to end their own life. But

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<v Speaker 2>the issue is that suicidal people are not always in

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<v Speaker 2>a rational state of mind, so you can't apply standard

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<v Speaker 2>logic to their actions. On April the fourteenth, the date

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<v Speaker 2>before he witnessing, Ray, took a half day off work

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<v Speaker 2>and was seen sitting inside his car next to a

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<v Speaker 2>lakeside marina. So could he have possibly spent this time

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<v Speaker 2>contemplating a suicide in which he drowned himself in a

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<v Speaker 2>body of water. The main reason the suicide theory gets

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<v Speaker 2>so much traction is because Ray's brother, Roy ended his

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<v Speaker 2>own life nine years earlier by parking his car near

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<v Speaker 2>a bridge located many miles away from his home before

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<v Speaker 2>jumping into the Great Miami River. And here we have

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<v Speaker 2>Ray driving sixty miles to Louisbourg and parking his car

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<v Speaker 2>near a bridge and an abandoned railway trestle which overlooked

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<v Speaker 2>the Susquehanna River. So maybe he decided to follow in

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<v Speaker 2>his brother's footsteps. Of course, the key differences between these

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<v Speaker 2>two scenarios is that Roy had a documented history of

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<v Speaker 2>bipolar disorder and depression, and his body was actually found now.

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<v Speaker 2>In a twenty eighteen article from the State College based

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<v Speaker 2>newspaper The Center Daily Times, Bob Yuner, a former Montour

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<v Speaker 2>County District attorney who is friends with Ray, made this

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<v Speaker 2>controversial statement quote, Here's the interesting thing. Ray never believed

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<v Speaker 2>his brother committed suicide. The most important reason was that

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<v Speaker 2>he thought his brother would never orphan his two sons,

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<v Speaker 2>rais nephews end quote. Buner also mentioned that whenever Ray

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<v Speaker 2>went to Ohio, he would check in with the police

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<v Speaker 2>to see if there were any new leads with Roy's case. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>this statement is heavily disputed by Roy's son, Tony Greekar,

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<v Speaker 2>who is the official family spokesman and has frequently shared

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<v Speaker 2>his thoughts in various Reddit threads and comments sections about

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<v Speaker 2>this case. Tony has always maintained that the family accepted

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<v Speaker 2>the suicide ruling and never believed there was any foul

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<v Speaker 2>play involved in Roy's death. If Ray felt otherwise, he

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<v Speaker 2>never said so in front of his family.

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<v Speaker 3>Which you would think he would. You would think that

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<v Speaker 3>if he was worried about his brother's death and that

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<v Speaker 3>he said, you know, he would never orphan these boys,

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<v Speaker 3>he would have never completed suicide. Well, then wouldn't that

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<v Speaker 3>be something that he and Roy's wife would have talked about,

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<v Speaker 3>that he would have talked to with the kids, like,

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<v Speaker 3>your daddy loved you so much, there's no way he

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<v Speaker 3>left you. Maybe one day I'll be able to vindicate

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<v Speaker 3>him and get you answers. You know, I'm a prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 3>I just feel like there would have been some kind

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<v Speaker 3>of conversation, not that he would have sat there silent,

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<v Speaker 3>and that the son would say, listen, we accept this information.

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<v Speaker 3>Do they accept it because they know their daddy had

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<v Speaker 3>been sick, that he was bipolar, that he was struggling.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, the boys would have known that situation, probably

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<v Speaker 3>even more intimately than Ray would, wouldn't they.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, definitely. And we see so many cases where someone's

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<v Speaker 2>death is ruled to be a suicide, the police rule

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<v Speaker 2>it that way, but their family are certain that they

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<v Speaker 2>are the victims of foul play. But this is the

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<v Speaker 2>complete opposite. Whether family is saying no, we accept the

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<v Speaker 2>suicide ruling, we have no reason to believe there was murder.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course Ray if he felt otherwise, he was

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<v Speaker 2>also a district attorney, so he would have had the

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<v Speaker 2>resources to spread awareness about his brother's case and possibly

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<v Speaker 2>open an investigation. So the fact that he never did

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<v Speaker 2>anything like that makes me think that Bobyuter's statement was

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<v Speaker 2>false and that Ray never believed his brother was murdered.

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<v Speaker 1>So I couldn't think of the exact study to cite

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<v Speaker 1>that I'd read, and it was talking about time spent

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<v Speaker 1>that people prior to a suicide attempt would consider suicide,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think this is extremely relevant, So I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to read what AI came back with, specifically perplexity on

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<v Speaker 1>the studies concerning this. So I asked studies on time

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<v Speaker 1>spent contemplating suicide before attempting in those who were unsuccessful

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<v Speaker 1>with completing suicide, and says key findings from studies, Nearly

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<v Speaker 1>half of people who attempt suicide report that the time

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<v Speaker 1>from the first current suicidal thought to the actual attempt

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<v Speaker 1>is very short ten minutes or less. In one study,

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<v Speaker 1>forty seven point six percent of suicide attempters said the

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<v Speaker 1>period between the first current thought and the attempt was

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<v Speaker 1>ten minutes or less, while those who took longer to

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<v Speaker 1>act tended to have higher suicidal intent. A separate study

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<v Speaker 1>of survivors of nearly lethal suicide attempts found twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>percent deliberated less than five minutes, twenty four percent deliberated

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<v Speaker 1>five to nineteen minutes, twenty three percent deliberated twenty minutes

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<v Speaker 1>to one hour, sixteen percent deliberated two to eight hours,

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<v Speaker 1>and thirteen percent deliberated one or more days. So these

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<v Speaker 1>findings indicate that for a significant proportion of attempters, the

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<v Speaker 1>window between decision and action is extremely brief, often measured

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<v Speaker 1>in minutes, not hours or days, and so the implications

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<v Speaker 1>are the short duration between contemplation an attempt highlights the

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<v Speaker 1>impulsive nature of many suicide attempts, suggesting that prevention efforts

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<v Speaker 1>must focus on rapid intervention and reducing access to lethal

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<v Speaker 1>means during a crisis. While some individuals can contemplate for

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<v Speaker 1>longer periods, most attempts occur soon after the onset of

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<v Speaker 1>acute suicidal thoughts, limiting the opportunity for intervention. So I

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<v Speaker 1>thought that was really interesting as it could pertain to Ray.

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<v Speaker 1>It could have just been something that, yeah, he had

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<v Speaker 1>all of these appointments and dates that he had marked

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<v Speaker 1>on a calendar, but perhaps that day he just thought,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the day I decided that I want to

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<v Speaker 1>end it, and then he took the actionable steps to

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<v Speaker 1>make that happen.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really interesting. I didn't know that it was such

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<v Speaker 2>a high percentage who made an impulsive decision and went

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<v Speaker 2>through with the act only minutes afterwards. So theoretically, if

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<v Speaker 2>this applied to Ray, we know that as his last

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<v Speaker 2>phone call to his girlfriend was that I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>drive and go do some antique shopping in this little

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<v Speaker 2>town he had visited before, So who knows, maybe that's

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<v Speaker 2>how he intended to start the day, just go to

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<v Speaker 2>Louisbourg do some shopping, and then once he arrived, he

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly decided I want to end my own life. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>feeling suicidal, and then just made an impulsive decision to

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<v Speaker 2>just walk over to the nearest bridge and jump into

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<v Speaker 2>the river.

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<v Speaker 1>Indeed, it sounds like what happened to Roy is pretty

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<v Speaker 1>cut and dried, but without a body, you definitely cannot

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<v Speaker 1>say the same thing about Ray. At the time Ray

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<v Speaker 1>went missing, the water level in the Susquehanna River was

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<v Speaker 1>higher than usual because of the spring melt, but it

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<v Speaker 1>eventually went down in subsequent months, which explains why the

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<v Speaker 1>laptop and hard drive were found in relatively close proximity

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<v Speaker 1>to the spot where the Mini Cooper had been abandoned.

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<v Speaker 1>So if these much smaller items were eventually found. Why

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't Ray's body turn up if it was in the river? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess it would depend on where the currents could

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<v Speaker 1>have taken him. If Ray's body had floated downstream and

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<v Speaker 1>traveled southeast for about ten miles, it would have reached

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<v Speaker 1>the town of Sunbury, which contained the Adam T. Bauer

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<v Speaker 1>Memorial Dam, the world's largest inflatable dam. The dam is

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<v Speaker 1>installed every spring, and it's apparently confirmed that it was

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<v Speaker 1>already in place by mid April of two thousand and five,

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<v Speaker 1>So if Ray's body made it there, it's possible the

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<v Speaker 1>dam could have showed him up and made his remains

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<v Speaker 1>a lot more difficult to recover. That really does provide

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<v Speaker 1>the best explanation for how Ray's body could have wound

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<v Speaker 1>up in the Susquehanna River without being found, but of

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<v Speaker 1>course there's no concrete evidence to support this theory. If

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<v Speaker 1>Ray did jump into the river from the bridge or

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<v Speaker 1>railway trestle, there's also been some question about whether he

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<v Speaker 1>could have done this without being seen, as the bridge

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<v Speaker 1>was part of the Pennsylvania Route forty five and often

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<v Speaker 1>had a lot of traffic. But even though Ray arrived

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<v Speaker 1>in Louisbourg on April fifteenth. His car was not actually

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<v Speaker 1>found until the following day, So for all we know,

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<v Speaker 1>Ray could have hung around the area for a while

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<v Speaker 1>and not jumped into the river until the middle of

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<v Speaker 1>the night when there was less of a chance of

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<v Speaker 1>any witnesses seeing him.

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<v Speaker 3>Couldn't it also be, though, that someone did hurt him

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<v Speaker 3>and foul play was involved, And it's a potential that

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<v Speaker 3>one this is staged where his car's located. Was it

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<v Speaker 3>very public knowledge of how Roy had completed suicide?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I don't think that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that got a lot of news coverage because he

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<v Speaker 2>was missing for a short period of time, and it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't a foul play investigation, so and it took place

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<v Speaker 2>years earlier, so if you wanted to find out about it,

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<v Speaker 2>you would have to go through the newspaper archives. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it wasn't something that Ray talked about during

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<v Speaker 2>his public life when he was addressing the public about

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<v Speaker 2>the cases he was working on. But if it was

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<v Speaker 2>someone who had inside knowledge of his life and they

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to make it look like his death is a suicide,

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<v Speaker 2>then that would be the most logical solution. Just park

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<v Speaker 2>his car near a bridge and a body of water

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<v Speaker 2>and make people think that he decided to follow in

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<v Speaker 2>his brother's footsteps. Well, even if Ray's death was a suicide,

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<v Speaker 2>the big mystery, which has still never been explained, is

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<v Speaker 2>why he removed the hard drive from his laptop. Remember

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<v Speaker 2>that hard drive was screwed in pretty tight, so it

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have just broken off on its own and someone

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00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.759
<v Speaker 2>had to make a concerted effort to remove it. I

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00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.279
<v Speaker 2>know that Ray had been performing internet searches about how

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<v Speaker 2>to wipe a hard drive prior to his disappearance, which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't unusual on his own, since he would probably want

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<v Speaker 2>to remove everything from his work laptop before he retired

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<v Speaker 2>at the end of the year. However, it's been reported

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<v Speaker 2>that one of the search items he used was quote

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<v Speaker 2>water damage to a notebook computer, which is quite different

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<v Speaker 2>than the standard practice of using software to erase your

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<v Speaker 2>hard drive. But here's the thing that has always troubled me.

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<v Speaker 2>If Ray was feeling suicidal and there was something on

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<v Speaker 2>that hard drive that he didn't want people finding out about,

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<v Speaker 2>why toss it into the same body of water where

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<v Speaker 2>you're planning to kill yourself. Surely Ray knew that people

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<v Speaker 2>would search the river if he abandoned his car so

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<v Speaker 2>close to it. Well, the hard drive suffered too much

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<v Speaker 2>damage to recover any data from it. There's no way

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<v Speaker 2>Ray could have predicted this. Remember, he drove sixty miles

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<v Speaker 2>from Belfont to Louisbourg on a scenic route, which is

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00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.399
<v Speaker 2>pretty much open country. If he had disposed of the

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<v Speaker 2>laptop hard drive before he arrived in Louisbourg, by say,

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<v Speaker 2>bearing the items in a remote wooded area, it's possible

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<v Speaker 2>that no one would have ever found them. Well, it's

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<v Speaker 2>easy to assume that Ray had something horrible on that

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<v Speaker 2>hard drive that he wanted to destroy. This was a

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00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:29.679
<v Speaker 2>county issued work computer, and I'd like to think he

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<v Speaker 2>would have been smart enough not to save anything incriminating

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<v Speaker 2>on there in the first place. It really makes a

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<v Speaker 2>lot more sense to me that a third party would

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<v Speaker 2>want to destroy the hard drive because they believed it

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<v Speaker 2>contain evidence and their first instinct was to toss it

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<v Speaker 2>into the river.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I absolutely think that. I don't know why he

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<v Speaker 3>would have searched water damage to a laptop, but when

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00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.840
<v Speaker 3>you do have this idea of the hard drive was

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<v Speaker 3>taken out and destroyed and it's sunk into the river.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know that he, like you said, would have

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<v Speaker 3>been foolish enough to say, hey, let's just put this

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00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.879
<v Speaker 3>next to my car and hopefully no one will find me. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>if he's suicidal, and he's in a state of let's say,

289
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.080
<v Speaker 3>a manic state or just a dissociated state, then it's

290
00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.519
<v Speaker 3>possible that he could do things without being very logical.

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<v Speaker 3>But it does seem more probable that someone who wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to make sure a case he was investigating didn't have

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00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.840
<v Speaker 3>the information shared after his death would be wanting to

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<v Speaker 3>destroy that hard drive as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm fifty to fifty I think it's entirely possible that

296
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.440
<v Speaker 1>it could have been foul play and that a third

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00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.799
<v Speaker 1>party destroyed it. To think back to Ray Rivera's case

298
00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:46.240
<v Speaker 1>in reference that, again, the actions that he took seemed

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00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.559
<v Speaker 1>completely illogical to the outside person, and we seem to

300
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:51.720
<v Speaker 1>have a little bit more insights because we saw his

301
00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.759
<v Speaker 1>post it notes. We don't know what was on Ray

302
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.679
<v Speaker 1>Greecar's computer. We don't know what he was writing, and

303
00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.799
<v Speaker 1>we don't know the information and how he was perceiving it,

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00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.000
<v Speaker 1>and what could have been his motivation if he was

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00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.320
<v Speaker 1>in if he was experiencing psychosis or if he was

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00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.960
<v Speaker 1>in a manic state something like that. The way that

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00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.240
<v Speaker 1>he would be choosing to go about getting rid of

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00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.639
<v Speaker 1>this laptop, it could be for reasons that would be

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00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.919
<v Speaker 1>logical or completely illogical. It could be something that just

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00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:22.919
<v Speaker 1>came to him at the moment. When we try to

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00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:27.039
<v Speaker 1>apply logic to somebody in that moment, then it can

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00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.679
<v Speaker 1>be really difficult and it can limit the scope of

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00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.360
<v Speaker 1>what we think somebody is capable of doing. And so

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00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.720
<v Speaker 1>I really can't go one way or the other. I

315
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.080
<v Speaker 1>think both are equally possible.

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00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, since you shared that study about how suicide is

317
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.960
<v Speaker 2>sometimes an impulsive decision for a lot of people that

318
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.879
<v Speaker 2>they make in minutes, that could explain Ray's actions where

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00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.399
<v Speaker 2>he just suddenly decides in Louisbourg that I want to

320
00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>end my own life, and he's just not thinking through

321
00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.519
<v Speaker 2>the most logical way to get rid of his laptop,

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00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:56.600
<v Speaker 2>so he just makes an impulsive decision to throw it

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<v Speaker 2>into the river, and that would explain why he didn't

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00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.519
<v Speaker 2>take more drastic steps, like say, burying the laptop in

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00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:05.759
<v Speaker 2>like a wooded area or something like that, where he

326
00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:07.960
<v Speaker 2>knows it'll never be found. Because he may not have

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00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.400
<v Speaker 2>known that he was planning suicide when he left his

328
00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.119
<v Speaker 2>house that day.

329
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.880
<v Speaker 1>But on the other hand, when Ray took the laptop

330
00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.400
<v Speaker 1>on his trip with him, he left behind the case

331
00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:20.200
<v Speaker 1>and charger at his house. If Ray was planning to

332
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:23.319
<v Speaker 1>use the laptop for work purposes and was gathering information,

333
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.559
<v Speaker 1>it seems odd that he wouldn't take the charger. What

334
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.319
<v Speaker 1>if the battery ran down while he was in the

335
00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.480
<v Speaker 1>midst of something important. This is one detail which would

336
00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.880
<v Speaker 1>seem to suggest that Ray only took the laptop to

337
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.759
<v Speaker 1>Louisbourg to destroy it. If Ray's death was a suicide,

338
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:42.000
<v Speaker 1>one potential explanation to account for all these oddities is

339
00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:44.119
<v Speaker 1>that he didn't want anyone to know that he chose

340
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.480
<v Speaker 1>to take his own life, so he left a trail

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00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.880
<v Speaker 1>of false clues behind in order to give off the

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00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.279
<v Speaker 1>false impression that he was the victim of foul play.

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00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:54.359
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps he removed the hard drive from the laptop and

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00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.519
<v Speaker 1>destroyed it even though there was nothing incriminating on there.

345
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.799
<v Speaker 1>Or he decided to smoke cigarettes in his car and

346
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.119
<v Speaker 1>white fingerprints from the interior to make everyone believe that

347
00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.920
<v Speaker 1>a third party was with him. Ray still could have

348
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.960
<v Speaker 1>felt that there was a stigma surrounding suicide, which is

349
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.400
<v Speaker 1>why he didn't want anyone to know that he'd gone

350
00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.759
<v Speaker 1>through with it. If he intentionally jumped off the ridge

351
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<v Speaker 1>into the river, there's no way he could have known

352
00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.039
<v Speaker 1>his body would never be found, So why not plant

353
00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:24.240
<v Speaker 1>some seeds to make others believe that someone murdered him?

354
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:27.240
<v Speaker 1>Once again, this isn't exactly a logical course of action,

355
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.200
<v Speaker 1>but suicidal people sometimes do not do the most logical things.

356
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:34.920
<v Speaker 3>Couldn't it also be that he was if he was

357
00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.319
<v Speaker 3>trying to cover his suicide, that he's waiting for this

358
00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:41.279
<v Speaker 3>idea of Okay, I have a life insurance policy that

359
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.599
<v Speaker 3>my wife and daughter could get and if I complete suicide.

360
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.720
<v Speaker 3>It's possible that his did not have a suicide clause

361
00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:51.319
<v Speaker 3>in it, and that the payout wouldn't happen if he

362
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:53.640
<v Speaker 3>was if it was ruled a suicide.

363
00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>That is true. It's never actually been specified if he

364
00:18:57.319 --> 00:18:59.759
<v Speaker 2>did have a life insurance policy, though I do know

365
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<v Speaker 2>that he was officially declared dead six years after he

366
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.799
<v Speaker 2>went missing, rather than the standard seven years, But it's

367
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.640
<v Speaker 2>never been shared if his girlfriend or his daughter got

368
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.119
<v Speaker 2>any life insurance pay out. But yeah, some people, Some

369
00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:12.920
<v Speaker 2>times people will do that is that they'll try to

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00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.680
<v Speaker 2>stage their desks to look like a homicide just so

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00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.640
<v Speaker 2>that their families will be taken care of.

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00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.160
<v Speaker 1>Don't. Most life insurance policies initially have like a suicide

373
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.240
<v Speaker 1>identity clause, and then once it's like, you know, five

374
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.920
<v Speaker 1>years old or something like that, then it will pay

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00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.079
<v Speaker 1>out in the case of suicide.

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<v Speaker 3>That's how most of them are.

377
00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:31.160
<v Speaker 2>I believe.

378
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.359
<v Speaker 3>I think the years depend, you know, like get's two years,

379
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.839
<v Speaker 3>five years, whatever. That way, someone can't say, oh, you know,

380
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:39.480
<v Speaker 3>I think I'm gonna take my life in six months,

381
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.039
<v Speaker 3>let me go ahead and protect my family financially. But yeah,

382
00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:46.599
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I'm just I'm wondering maybe the company they

383
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.559
<v Speaker 3>use at the prosecutor's office or maybe the private company

384
00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:51.359
<v Speaker 3>that he had didn't allow for that.

385
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:54.279
<v Speaker 1>It'd be nice if we knew that information, because I

386
00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:56.960
<v Speaker 1>think it would be extremely relevant to maybe how we

387
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.640
<v Speaker 1>would feel about what course of action you could have

388
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:00.599
<v Speaker 1>potential taken.

389
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:04.480
<v Speaker 2>So now it would be a good time to revisit

390
00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.920
<v Speaker 2>this whole angle involving the Penn State scandal and determine

391
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.880
<v Speaker 2>whether or not Ray's disappearance or the laptop has any

392
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.960
<v Speaker 2>connection to it. It has been theorized that Ray could

393
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>have been doing his own independent investigation into the allegations

394
00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.720
<v Speaker 2>of sexual abuse before he was murdered, and the information

395
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.480
<v Speaker 2>he had gathered was on that hard drive. Alternatively, perhaps

396
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:26.920
<v Speaker 2>Ray played a role in covering up the allegations when

397
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.039
<v Speaker 2>he elected not to charge Jerry Sandusky after he was

398
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.279
<v Speaker 2>accused of molesting a boy in the shower back in

399
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:36.079
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight. If Ray knew that Sandusky was continuing

400
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 2>to use his position of power to sexually abuse young boys,

401
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.960
<v Speaker 2>he could have become overwhelmed with guilt and decided to

402
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.640
<v Speaker 2>kill himself. That idea might make a bit more sense

403
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.640
<v Speaker 2>if the Penn State scandal was on the verge of

404
00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:48.960
<v Speaker 2>coming to light and Ray felt he was going to

405
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.119
<v Speaker 2>suffer a major backlash for his inaction. But this would

406
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.079
<v Speaker 2>not become a national story until six years after Ray

407
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:58.160
<v Speaker 2>went missing, and there's no indication that anything was about

408
00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.319
<v Speaker 2>to surface in two thousand and five. It's no big

409
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.759
<v Speaker 2>secret that, in order to protect the reputation of Penn

410
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:08.519
<v Speaker 2>State's football program, allegations about Sandusky's sexual abuse were swept

411
00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.240
<v Speaker 2>under the rug for years, But everyone who knew Ray

412
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:13.480
<v Speaker 2>said that this would not have been within his character.

413
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.240
<v Speaker 2>He was described as a prosecutor who never played favorites

414
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and did not care if the person he was investigating

415
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>was some low level career criminal or a beloved assistant

416
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.400
<v Speaker 2>football coach, and since Ray had no higher political aspirations,

417
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.160
<v Speaker 2>he probably did not care how taking on a respected

418
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.400
<v Speaker 2>figure like Sandusky might harm his career. While it sounds

419
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.039
<v Speaker 2>like Ray never spoke about his reasons for not filing

420
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:41.440
<v Speaker 2>charges against Sandusky, Rebecca Knight revealed a very interesting new

421
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>piece of information on the Final Argument podcast. A source

422
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:47.440
<v Speaker 2>told her that during the fall of two thousand and four,

423
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:51.000
<v Speaker 2>about six months before Ray went missing, he heard Race

424
00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:54.519
<v Speaker 2>refer to Sandusky as a quote unquote pedophile and vow

425
00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:56.839
<v Speaker 2>that he was going to put him away. If this

426
00:21:57.079 --> 00:21:59.559
<v Speaker 2>was true, then this would imply that the only reason

427
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Ray did not file charges for the shower incident was

428
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:04.759
<v Speaker 2>because he did not believe the case was strong enough

429
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.519
<v Speaker 2>to prosecute at that time, but he was not going

430
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.559
<v Speaker 2>to give up on investigating Sandusky well. It eventually came

431
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>out that Sandusky was a serial abuser who victimized many

432
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.160
<v Speaker 2>boys over a period of several years. It's unclear if

433
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Ray had that information in nineteen ninety eight, or was

434
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.200
<v Speaker 2>aware of any other predatory behavior other than the one

435
00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:28.480
<v Speaker 2>incident in the shower. While the recording of Sandusky's conversation

436
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.920
<v Speaker 2>with the boy's mother sounded pretty damning, he never flat

437
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.920
<v Speaker 2>out admitted to molesting the boy, only that he showered

438
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:37.119
<v Speaker 2>with them and hugged him, so Ray may have wanted

439
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.559
<v Speaker 2>to gather more evidence. You have to remember that Sandusky

440
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:43.160
<v Speaker 2>had been a Penn State assistant coach for thirty years

441
00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:46.000
<v Speaker 2>and was a highly respected figure because of his work

442
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.960
<v Speaker 2>with the Second Mile organization. So if Ray was going

443
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.279
<v Speaker 2>to press charges against someone like that and bring him

444
00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 2>to trial, I'm sure he wanted the case to be

445
00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.400
<v Speaker 2>air tight. When beloved head coach Joe Paterno had his

446
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.799
<v Speaker 2>contract terminated in twenty eleven over allegations that he covered

447
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.480
<v Speaker 2>up Sandusky's abuse, Penn State started riding in the streets

448
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.839
<v Speaker 2>and causing property damage. I'm sure Ray was well aware

449
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that this was the type of backlash you could expect

450
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.599
<v Speaker 2>if he tried to take on Sandusky and the Penn

451
00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:16.519
<v Speaker 2>State football program without having all of his ducks in

452
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:16.880
<v Speaker 2>a row.

453
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.519
<v Speaker 3>That's exactly right. That's such a huge institution. You'd be

454
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:24.039
<v Speaker 3>up against that we know wenton, tried to cover their

455
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:29.079
<v Speaker 3>tracks and had you know what, billion dollar endowments and

456
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.319
<v Speaker 3>stuff protecting them, and so that is an incredibly huge institution.

457
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.319
<v Speaker 3>It's like taking on the Catholic Church. And so when

458
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:38.880
<v Speaker 3>he says, Okay, look, I know this man is a pedophile.

459
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:39.440
<v Speaker 2>This is a.

460
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:44.079
<v Speaker 3>Dad who's child was his life, and he said, this

461
00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:46.000
<v Speaker 3>guy's a pedophile, I'm going to make sure that I

462
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.440
<v Speaker 3>stay on top of his case. I can't imagine a prosecutor,

463
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:51.799
<v Speaker 3>especially when at the end of his career, who's not

464
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.440
<v Speaker 3>worried about political backlash and isn't worried about getting reelected

465
00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.559
<v Speaker 3>or anything like that. I could easily see him saying,

466
00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:02.279
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to my teeth into this, but I would

467
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.799
<v Speaker 3>never put this case in jeopardy or these victims in

468
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:08.720
<v Speaker 3>jeopardy by going forward until I'm one thousand percent sure

469
00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:10.559
<v Speaker 3>we could win it. And I'm pretty sure that's what

470
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:11.240
<v Speaker 3>happened here.

471
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:13.680
<v Speaker 2>And that would make sense. Because he knew he was

472
00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.480
<v Speaker 2>going to retire, he pretty much did not care if

473
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.200
<v Speaker 2>something like this got a public backlash because he's thinking, well,

474
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:21.200
<v Speaker 2>it's the end of my career anyway, so if this

475
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.079
<v Speaker 2>ruins me then I really got nothing to lose, So

476
00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:26.079
<v Speaker 2>it could be one of those things where this bothered

477
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.119
<v Speaker 2>him for years and he just wanted to spend like

478
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.119
<v Speaker 2>the last months of his tenure making this right and

479
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>possibly bringing a pedophile to justice.

480
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.920
<v Speaker 1>So now let's discuss this theory from final argument where

481
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Ray was meeting up with a number of different women

482
00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.839
<v Speaker 1>who were the mothers of Sandusky's victims in order to

483
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.440
<v Speaker 1>build a case against him. Could there have been some

484
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.640
<v Speaker 1>incriminating information on Ray's hard drive which led to it

485
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.240
<v Speaker 1>being destroyed and Ray losing his life. Well, even though

486
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:55.119
<v Speaker 1>a lot of covering up was done in the Penn

487
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:58.880
<v Speaker 1>State scandal in order to protect Sandusky for years, I'm

488
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.039
<v Speaker 1>not sure this was a t type of scandal which

489
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:03.720
<v Speaker 1>would have crossed the line into murder. I mean it

490
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.680
<v Speaker 1>was Sarah Gannon, a twenty three year old reporter with

491
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:09.440
<v Speaker 1>the Patriot News, who first brought the whole thing to

492
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:12.960
<v Speaker 1>light by publishing a story about it in March twenty eleven,

493
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.079
<v Speaker 1>and while the paper initially faced criticism for smearing the

494
00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.119
<v Speaker 1>reputation of Sandusky and Penn State, they received vindication when

495
00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 1>the grand jury indicted Sandusky in November of that year.

496
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:26.119
<v Speaker 1>It just seems odd that the people in power could

497
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.759
<v Speaker 1>make a veteran district attorney like Ray Gricard disappear without

498
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.559
<v Speaker 1>leaving any evidence behind, but couldn't prevent this young reporter

499
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.359
<v Speaker 1>from breaking the story wide open. The final argument podcasts

500
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:39.119
<v Speaker 1>made it sound like they were building up to the

501
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.799
<v Speaker 1>presentation of brand new evidence that would link Ray's case

502
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:45.960
<v Speaker 1>to the Penn State scandal, But because it abruptly came

503
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.559
<v Speaker 1>to an end and Rebecca Knight stopped talking about it,

504
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:50.559
<v Speaker 1>we may never know what she uncovered.

505
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.440
<v Speaker 3>She was leaning more towards the Penn State scandal. Is

506
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.000
<v Speaker 3>there any way that she also could have been maybe

507
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.880
<v Speaker 3>going to throw Hell's Angels into it, Because to me,

508
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.240
<v Speaker 3>as scary as Penn State is with its political and

509
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.759
<v Speaker 3>financial wealth that would be coming after you, Hell's Angels

510
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 3>would be very scary, more sea being killed by them

511
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.160
<v Speaker 3>versus kind of buried financially by the other group.

512
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:19.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, I would be more fearful if I was

513
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.119
<v Speaker 2>in her shoes that I would be murdered by a

514
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.480
<v Speaker 2>biker gang rather than people affiliated with a football program.

515
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.240
<v Speaker 2>But she never gave any indication that she was looking

516
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.039
<v Speaker 2>into that angle, And I think the reason I always

517
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.519
<v Speaker 2>speculated that she was looking into the Penn State link

518
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:34.799
<v Speaker 2>is because she was the one who presented the theory

519
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.640
<v Speaker 2>about what if Ray was meeting up with these with

520
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 2>the mothers of other victims to try to build a

521
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.640
<v Speaker 2>case against Sandusky. But like we've talked about, this scandal

522
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:48.680
<v Speaker 2>ended over a decade ago, Sandusky's in jail, So if

523
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.880
<v Speaker 2>she did uncover anything, I don't know why she would

524
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>be so secretive about it because Penn State's reputation has

525
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.720
<v Speaker 2>already been destroyed, so you're not going to lose too

526
00:26:57.799 --> 00:26:59.920
<v Speaker 2>much if you come up with new information that pain

527
00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.279
<v Speaker 2>them in a bad light. Well, even if Ray's disappearance

528
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.640
<v Speaker 2>had nothing to do with the Penn State scandal, could

529
00:27:05.720 --> 00:27:08.319
<v Speaker 2>he have traveled to Louisbourg to gather information about an

530
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.240
<v Speaker 2>entirely different case he was working on at a wound

531
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.079
<v Speaker 2>up getting him killed. Well that would all depend on

532
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.880
<v Speaker 2>the biggest unanswered question in this case, and that's the

533
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:19.680
<v Speaker 2>identity of the woman that Ray was supposedly seeing with

534
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.599
<v Speaker 2>at the Street of Shops. I know it's tempting to

535
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.200
<v Speaker 2>believe that Ray was conducting a secret affair, as he

536
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:28.720
<v Speaker 2>did have a reputation for liking women around the time

537
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>he divorced his second wife, Emma, and before he started

538
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.359
<v Speaker 2>his relationship with Patty, Ray reportedly fell head over heels

539
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>in love with a nurse and quickly asked her to

540
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.680
<v Speaker 2>marry him, but she turned him down. And it's also

541
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.759
<v Speaker 2>been reported that Ray often liked to go to a

542
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.880
<v Speaker 2>certain restaurant at Center County, and while there he would

543
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.960
<v Speaker 2>always request a particular waitress and flirt with her when

544
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.759
<v Speaker 2>she served him. But even if Ray had a flirtatious personality,

545
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 2>I've not come across any information that he ever flat

546
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.480
<v Speaker 2>out cheated on any of his spouses, and there was

547
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 2>apparently nothing in Ray's financial to suggest that he was

548
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.920
<v Speaker 2>conducting an affair at the time he went missing. If

549
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.319
<v Speaker 2>Ray was meeting up with a woman in Louisbourg, then

550
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.359
<v Speaker 2>I would not be surprised if it was in relation

551
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.279
<v Speaker 2>to some sort of investigation, which might explain why he

552
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.920
<v Speaker 2>decided to take his work laptop along with him. However,

553
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.240
<v Speaker 2>one aspect of this case which has never made sense

554
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.599
<v Speaker 2>to anyone is why the authorities did not publicly disclose

555
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:24.000
<v Speaker 2>the siding of Ray and the woman until thirteen months

556
00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.559
<v Speaker 2>after he disappeared. Yes, I know they initially assumed that

557
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:29.920
<v Speaker 2>the woman was a friend of his name, Barbara Patito,

558
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.319
<v Speaker 2>but she was ruled out relatively quickly, And it sounds

559
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:35.880
<v Speaker 2>like the rationale is they didn't want to harm Ray's

560
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.359
<v Speaker 2>reputation by potentially giving off the false impression that he

561
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:42.599
<v Speaker 2>was conducting an affair. Well, I'm sure his family was

562
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:45.079
<v Speaker 2>much more concerned about finding out if he was dead

563
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.880
<v Speaker 2>or alive rather than protecting his reputation, So why wait

564
00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.839
<v Speaker 2>over an entire year to release this information. The original

565
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.200
<v Speaker 2>investigation was handled by the Bellefont Police Department, who have

566
00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:59.799
<v Speaker 2>received criticisms for mistakes they made, including their failure to

567
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.000
<v Speaker 2>go public about the sighting of the woman. Given the

568
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 2>high profile nature raised his appearance, it's believed that the

569
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Bellefont PD may have been out of the league, as

570
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>the case was assigned to only one investigator, who had

571
00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:14.279
<v Speaker 2>to juggle it with several other cases he was working on,

572
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:17.240
<v Speaker 2>so it was finally handed over to the Pennsylvania State

573
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Police in twenty fourteen.

574
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.759
<v Speaker 3>I don't see him being like a philandering, you know.

575
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.200
<v Speaker 3>I don't know the way some people make it sound

576
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.559
<v Speaker 3>that he was just all over women. He almost sounds

577
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.039
<v Speaker 3>like a serial monogamous where he's hunting down like, Ooh,

578
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.039
<v Speaker 3>I like this woman, I'm going to date her. Ooh

579
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:35.400
<v Speaker 3>I like this woman. I'm going to go hang out

580
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:36.799
<v Speaker 3>with her. Oh I like this woman, I'm going to

581
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.119
<v Speaker 3>marry her. And yes, does he like being in the

582
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:43.240
<v Speaker 3>company of a woman, Yes, but it doesn't ever seem

583
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.240
<v Speaker 3>like he's you know, with twenty women are sitting at

584
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, strip clubs every every single night, you know,

585
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:52.720
<v Speaker 3>after work. And even if he was, if he's single, okay,

586
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:55.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, like I just I don't get any kind

587
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:58.039
<v Speaker 3>of read on him other than he's a man who's

588
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:01.640
<v Speaker 3>used to being with some and so every time he's

589
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.079
<v Speaker 3>not in a monogamous relationship, he's kind of on the

590
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.799
<v Speaker 3>hunt for another one. It seems like a normal all

591
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:10.160
<v Speaker 3>American human being, doesn't it.

592
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, let me just play Devil's advocate for a moment,

593
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.720
<v Speaker 1>because we have a situation where we have somebody who's

594
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.480
<v Speaker 1>been described as enigmatic, who keeps their emotions really close

595
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 1>to his. Just he's somebody who's difficult to read, and

596
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.559
<v Speaker 1>typically people who are like that are slightly more introverted,

597
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 1>and they may have some secrets. So do I think

598
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:35.960
<v Speaker 1>that it's likely that he had all of these women

599
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.240
<v Speaker 1>that he was having affairs with. No, But do I

600
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.799
<v Speaker 1>think that it's possible that even though they didn't find

601
00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:43.000
<v Speaker 1>it in his financials. I mean, at first they said

602
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:45.319
<v Speaker 1>he was worth only one thousand dollars, it took them

603
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.440
<v Speaker 1>time to find that he had this other account where

604
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:49.720
<v Speaker 1>he had one hundred thousand. Who's to say that there

605
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:53.599
<v Speaker 1>wasn't some other account. I just I can't completely eliminate

606
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.880
<v Speaker 1>it as a possibility, But I can't in good faith

607
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.759
<v Speaker 1>say that like this is something that I for sure believe.

608
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they did confirm that they didn't find any charges

609
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.319
<v Speaker 2>on his credit cards, like him staying at any motels

610
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.279
<v Speaker 2>or driving off to have expensive meals to suggest that

611
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.680
<v Speaker 2>he was having an extra marital affair behind his girlfriend's back.

612
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:15.119
<v Speaker 2>But like you said, he did have bank accounts, so

613
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I suppose he could have paid everything with cash to

614
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.000
<v Speaker 2>help cover it up. But once again, it's still just

615
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.200
<v Speaker 2>all speculation. They've just never found any hard evidence that

616
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:25.319
<v Speaker 2>he was doing anything behind Patty's back.

617
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.640
<v Speaker 1>Now, we've had numerous accounts from informants who've come forward

618
00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.759
<v Speaker 1>with stories of Ray being murdered by criminals that were

619
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.480
<v Speaker 1>connected to investigations he worked on and they supposedly disposed

620
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:39.240
<v Speaker 1>of Ray's body in a mind shaft. And one of

621
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.079
<v Speaker 1>these stories, which involved Ray being murdered by a former

622
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.359
<v Speaker 1>prison inmate and an accomplice, specifically mentions a woman arranging

623
00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:49.200
<v Speaker 1>a meeting with Ray in Louisbourg in order to lure

624
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.599
<v Speaker 1>him to his death. Some of the reported eyewitness sightings

625
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:55.920
<v Speaker 1>of Ray described him as pacing around and appearing to

626
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:58.680
<v Speaker 1>be waiting for someone, So I do think it's likely

627
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:02.079
<v Speaker 1>he traveled there for the purposes of something else besides

628
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.400
<v Speaker 1>antique shopping. If Ray was meeting with a third party,

629
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.319
<v Speaker 1>then I personally think this lessons the possibility of his

630
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.759
<v Speaker 1>disappearance being a suicide. But with all the publicity this

631
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.039
<v Speaker 1>case is received, you have to wonder why this mysterious

632
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.160
<v Speaker 1>woman is never come forward unless she has something to hide.

633
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Another complication is that eyewitnesses reported seeing Ray park the

634
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:26.279
<v Speaker 1>Mini Cooper across the street from the Packwood House Museum

635
00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:30.279
<v Speaker 1>during the early afternoon of April fifteenth, before he abandoned

636
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:32.279
<v Speaker 1>the car in the lot near the street of shops.

637
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.519
<v Speaker 1>According to one witness, Ray parked his car in a

638
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.839
<v Speaker 1>spot across from the museum and inexplicably left for a

639
00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:41.599
<v Speaker 1>brief period of time before he drove back to this

640
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.519
<v Speaker 1>location to park his car in a different spot. He

641
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.319
<v Speaker 1>was then seen pacing around in a nearby park as

642
00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:50.119
<v Speaker 1>if he was waiting for someone, but it's unclear what

643
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.279
<v Speaker 1>exactly he was doing there. But he also appeared to

644
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.359
<v Speaker 1>be talking to himself, so if he had some sort

645
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.119
<v Speaker 1>of bluetooth device in his ear, perhaps he was making

646
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.759
<v Speaker 1>arrangements to meet the unidentified woman at the street of

647
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.160
<v Speaker 1>shops later that day. Some of the earliest reporting in

648
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:06.920
<v Speaker 1>this case also stated that there was a few sightings

649
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:09.960
<v Speaker 1>of Ray and Louisbourg on the morning of April sixteenth,

650
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.960
<v Speaker 1>which I guess is not impossible since the Mini Cooper

651
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:15.880
<v Speaker 1>was not actually found by the state trooper until six

652
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 1>point thirty that evening. However, Ray was still alive that day.

653
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.119
<v Speaker 1>There's no paper trail to show where he could have

654
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.359
<v Speaker 1>spent the night, unless he slept inside his car, but

655
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:28.000
<v Speaker 1>even so, it's surprising that he wouldn't have at least

656
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.839
<v Speaker 1>foam Patty to let her know where he was. Overall,

657
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm inclined to believe that the reported sightings of Ray

658
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:38.680
<v Speaker 1>on the sixteenth are mistaken and that whatever happened to

659
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:41.640
<v Speaker 1>him likely occurred on the fifteenth. I know that when

660
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 1>a tracker dog was brought in to pick up Ray's end,

661
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:46.599
<v Speaker 1>it didn't go any further than the parking lot where

662
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:49.920
<v Speaker 1>the Mini Cooper was abandoned, since the car was locked.

663
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.920
<v Speaker 1>This does suggest that Ray might have climbed into another vehicle,

664
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:56.079
<v Speaker 1>which is another point which goes against the suicide theory,

665
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:58.359
<v Speaker 1>since he simply could have walked to the bridge if

666
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:00.640
<v Speaker 1>he was planning to jump into the South Hannah River.

667
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.240
<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, if Ray left in another person's vehicle,

668
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:06.599
<v Speaker 1>it's odd that he would leave his cell phone inside

669
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 1>the Mini Cooper unless there's evidence to the theory that

670
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.800
<v Speaker 1>he was carrying around a separate burner phone for separate communication.

671
00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:16.159
<v Speaker 1>I guess it's possible that Ray could have been forcibly

672
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.920
<v Speaker 1>abducted from the parking lot, but there were no signs

673
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.679
<v Speaker 1>of any struggle or any witness who could corroborate this.

674
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.159
<v Speaker 3>Do we know how common it would be for a

675
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:28.400
<v Speaker 3>prosecutor to have a phone that's not linked. I don't

676
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:32.119
<v Speaker 3>feel like that would be a common idea, because you

677
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.840
<v Speaker 3>have somebody who's a prosecutor, and you would want to

678
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.840
<v Speaker 3>make sure that everything was done on the up and up,

679
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:41.480
<v Speaker 3>so that your prosecution would actually stick and that there

680
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.519
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't be any kind of hidden devices and things like

681
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.679
<v Speaker 3>that to call and to question your integrity. Now, I

682
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:51.000
<v Speaker 3>guess to communicate with an informant, maybe you wouldn't want

683
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 3>your phone number given out. I don't know, do you

684
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.400
<v Speaker 3>guys know how that would work.

685
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I would like to think in most investigations

686
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.239
<v Speaker 2>you would want it to be really documented and you

687
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:04.000
<v Speaker 2>would not be using things like burner phones. But I

688
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.079
<v Speaker 2>guess it would depend on the nature of the investigation.

689
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Because this was Ray's final year before his retirement, and

690
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:12.079
<v Speaker 2>if he was working on something really delicate, it might

691
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.719
<v Speaker 2>be one of those things where, well, if this investigation

692
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't lead anywhere, I don't want anyone to find out

693
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:19.039
<v Speaker 2>about it, So therefore I don't want to leave a

694
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.360
<v Speaker 2>paper trail. So that's why he would use something like

695
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:24.320
<v Speaker 2>a burner phone. Now, there's been a lot of discussion

696
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.960
<v Speaker 2>about the cigarette ash inside the Mini Cooper, but what

697
00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.960
<v Speaker 2>hasn't got as much attention are the two cigarette butts

698
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.320
<v Speaker 2>found outside the vehicle. It has been confirmed that DNA

699
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:36.000
<v Speaker 2>was extracted from them, but there were no matches when

700
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.800
<v Speaker 2>it was entered into the National Database of Offenders. Of course,

701
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>we know that a number of coal cases have been

702
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:45.719
<v Speaker 2>solved in recent years by entering DNA into genealogy databases

703
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:48.679
<v Speaker 2>and getting a match which eventually led back to the offender.

704
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.679
<v Speaker 2>But I'm wondering if the legalities of that might be

705
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.800
<v Speaker 2>a bit more complicated here, since there was no concrete

706
00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.320
<v Speaker 2>evidence a crime was committed. If these cigarette butts were

707
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.280
<v Speaker 2>found at the scene of a murder along SIEID a

708
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:02.920
<v Speaker 2>dead body, that would be one thing. But all this

709
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.639
<v Speaker 2>proves is that someone was smoking cigarettes in the same

710
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.239
<v Speaker 2>parking lot where a missing person's vehicle was abandoned. It's

711
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.119
<v Speaker 2>also never publicly been revealed if investigators were able to

712
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:14.760
<v Speaker 2>determine if the DNA on the cigarette butts was male

713
00:36:14.920 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>or female. If it was female, then this would lend

714
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot more weight to the siding of Ray with

715
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:21.239
<v Speaker 2>the unidentified woman.

716
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but I mean this is really interesting. If it

717
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 3>was male or female, like you said, it could also

718
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.559
<v Speaker 3>be anybody that just happened to be in that parking lot.

719
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:32.960
<v Speaker 3>I mean, if there's a parking lot, that means people

720
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:36.960
<v Speaker 3>go to this location. And so unless you could do

721
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:41.519
<v Speaker 3>a genealogical reverse look up, which would be exorbitant on

722
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 3>two cigarettes you're not even sure linked to this case.

723
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.960
<v Speaker 3>It would be very difficult to be able to prove that,

724
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:49.920
<v Speaker 3>even if you track those people down, that they were

725
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:53.400
<v Speaker 3>somehow involved, unless they were specifically tied to one of

726
00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:56.840
<v Speaker 3>his cases. I don't know. It just seems like a

727
00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.880
<v Speaker 3>long shot. Those cigarette butts could be left by any body.

728
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:04.599
<v Speaker 2>It's true, and you can't really prove that they're connected

729
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:06.760
<v Speaker 2>to raise disappearance. And it would be one thing if

730
00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:08.960
<v Speaker 2>they were able to match the DNA on the cigarettes

731
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:11.480
<v Speaker 2>to an offender with a criminal record, because that would

732
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:14.280
<v Speaker 2>look pretty damning. But if it's just some regular person.

733
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.039
<v Speaker 2>For all we know, it was just someone who decided

734
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:19.199
<v Speaker 2>to smoke on that particular day, and it's just a

735
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.719
<v Speaker 2>coincidence that Ray happened to park his car next to

736
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:22.639
<v Speaker 2>their butts.

737
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.840
<v Speaker 1>And we don't even know if those butts were there

738
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.760
<v Speaker 1>from that particular day. There's no way of dating the

739
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:29.599
<v Speaker 1>time and date that they ended up there.

740
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So it's like I can understand why there's a

741
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:34.920
<v Speaker 2>reluctance to try to get DNA on them when you

742
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.719
<v Speaker 2>can't even know for certain if they're connected to a crime.

743
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.079
<v Speaker 1>But what could have compelled Ray to travel to Louisbourg

744
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.679
<v Speaker 1>in the first place. Since he was less than eight

745
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.440
<v Speaker 1>months from retirement, it sounds like Ray had been passing

746
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.320
<v Speaker 1>a lot of his workload onto the attorneys in his office.

747
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.159
<v Speaker 1>He also practically had one foot out the door, since

748
00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.719
<v Speaker 1>he seemed to be playing hooky and taking half days

749
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:58.199
<v Speaker 1>and full days off from work. It doesn't fit the

750
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.000
<v Speaker 1>profile of someone who's doing a lot of covert work

751
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 1>on an important investigation unless Ray was working on something

752
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.079
<v Speaker 1>so secret that he couldn't tell anyone else what he

753
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.000
<v Speaker 1>was doing and was making all these trips because he

754
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.719
<v Speaker 1>really wanted to get the case resolved before he retired.

755
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:15.960
<v Speaker 1>I know, it's practically a cliche day in fictional cop

756
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.519
<v Speaker 1>stories for the grizzled veteran to be working on one

757
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:22.519
<v Speaker 1>last important case before retirement and having their plans spoiled

758
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:26.000
<v Speaker 1>when something bad happens. But that's very well what could

759
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 1>have happened here. One detail about this case which doesn't

760
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.360
<v Speaker 1>get discussed all that much is how Ray went missing.

761
00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:35.480
<v Speaker 1>A County codebook was found on his desk at the

762
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Center County District Attorney's office and was lying open to

763
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.360
<v Speaker 1>the section which described what to do if a sitting

764
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:44.719
<v Speaker 1>district attorney went missing or died. We have no idea

765
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:48.000
<v Speaker 1>if Ray did this, but surveillance footage confirmed that he

766
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:50.760
<v Speaker 1>did visit the office on the evening of April fourteenth,

767
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.119
<v Speaker 1>which would turn out to be the last time that

768
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:56.320
<v Speaker 1>he ever went there. He could have used that opportunity

769
00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:58.400
<v Speaker 1>to pull the book out and leave it open so

770
00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.000
<v Speaker 1>his co workers would know the press to follow if

771
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:04.159
<v Speaker 1>he didn't come back. This could be interpreted as evidence

772
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.119
<v Speaker 1>that Ray was planning a suicide, but could also mean

773
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:09.880
<v Speaker 1>that he was about to do something which might potentially

774
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:12.440
<v Speaker 1>put his life in danger, and he wanted to cover

775
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 1>all his bases in case something happened. I have to

776
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.159
<v Speaker 1>imagine that the answers might be on the hard drive

777
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:21.280
<v Speaker 1>of Ray's laptop, But even though nothing could be recovered

778
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.960
<v Speaker 1>from it, I guess we could always hold out hope

779
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.880
<v Speaker 1>that technology might improve enough to make it feasible to

780
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.559
<v Speaker 1>extract data from the hard drive someday. If it turns

781
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.599
<v Speaker 1>out that nothing is important on there after all, then

782
00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:37.159
<v Speaker 1>this would support the idea that raised disappearance was a suicide,

783
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:40.199
<v Speaker 1>and he staged the whole situation to look more mysterious

784
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.400
<v Speaker 1>than it really was. But it's also possible that the

785
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.159
<v Speaker 1>hard drive's contents could shed a lot of light on

786
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:47.079
<v Speaker 1>what happened to him.

787
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.280
<v Speaker 3>I think it absolutely could either way. I mean, if

788
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 3>he's contemplating suicide, could a hard drive have had rambling notes?

789
00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:57.199
<v Speaker 3>Could it have had little things he was trying to

790
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.880
<v Speaker 3>your research and plan. We know he was looking at

791
00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:03.480
<v Speaker 3>racing the computer and what water would do to damage

792
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:05.679
<v Speaker 3>the hard drive. But again, like we said, he was

793
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.199
<v Speaker 3>planning on leaving and so his computer was gonna get

794
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:13.639
<v Speaker 3>scrubbed anyway. But it's interesting because without that, we don't

795
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:17.800
<v Speaker 3>know if there was some you know, incognito investigation that

796
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.239
<v Speaker 3>he was doing, if he was if he was saying, listen,

797
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.239
<v Speaker 3>there's something so important to me that, even though I'm

798
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.199
<v Speaker 3>on my way out, I'm gonna see if I can

799
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 3>go behind, you know, the scenes and actually look at

800
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.480
<v Speaker 3>at some issue. And I'm going to go meet with

801
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.280
<v Speaker 3>people who are willing to talk to me. Maybe this

802
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 3>is my last hurrah as a district attorney, or at

803
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:37.000
<v Speaker 3>least maybe I can set my colleagues up to finish

804
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.320
<v Speaker 3>this case for me. But in order to do that,

805
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:42.000
<v Speaker 3>I need to protect these witnesses and get information from

806
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.800
<v Speaker 3>them before I no longer have that authority and power,

807
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:48.519
<v Speaker 3>and so I could absolutely see that happening. I could

808
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:52.159
<v Speaker 3>see somebody or some organization saying, oh, he cannot look

809
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:56.039
<v Speaker 3>into this anymore. But like you said, I mean without

810
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 3>that information, without the hard drive, we can't look for

811
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.440
<v Speaker 3>any kind of concerning things he might have left as

812
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.239
<v Speaker 3>someone who was maybe secretly struggling with mental health, and

813
00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:08.480
<v Speaker 3>we can look for information about some kind of secret investigation.

814
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:11.960
<v Speaker 2>For the longest time, I used to be fifty to

815
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:14.840
<v Speaker 2>fifty on the murder and suicide theory, but some of

816
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.800
<v Speaker 2>the information I heard on the Final Argument podcast did

817
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.719
<v Speaker 2>give me the impression that Ray might have been the

818
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.800
<v Speaker 2>victim of foul play. If he was murdered and a

819
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:25.559
<v Speaker 2>third party tossed the hard drive in the laptop into

820
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the Susquehanna River, then I have a feeling they probably

821
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.920
<v Speaker 2>disposed of Ray's body at another location. This is one

822
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.800
<v Speaker 2>of those frustrating cases with a number of different theories

823
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:37.960
<v Speaker 2>but no concrete evidence pointing towards any of them. So

824
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:41.679
<v Speaker 2>unless something new surfaces, we can only speculate on what happened.

825
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 2>Everyone who knew Ray described him as a very dedicated

826
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.599
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor who always tried to seek justice for victims. So

827
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>if he became a victim himself, let's hope the responsible

828
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:55.039
<v Speaker 2>party or parties can be brought to justice. But if

829
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Ray's death was a suicide after all, at the very least,

830
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.360
<v Speaker 2>it would be nice if his body could be bound

831
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.360
<v Speaker 2>to provide answers for his family. So if you have

832
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:06.239
<v Speaker 2>been to have any information about the unsolved disappearance of

833
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Ray Gricar, please contact the Pennsylvania State Police at eight

834
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.000
<v Speaker 2>one four three five five seven five four five. That's

835
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:17.360
<v Speaker 2>eight one four three five five seven five four five,

836
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in this case.

837
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.280
<v Speaker 3>What's incredibly hard here is that there's no good answer

838
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:27.480
<v Speaker 3>for this family because I don't believe in any ounce

839
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.199
<v Speaker 3>of my body that Rage is left voluntarily to start

840
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.639
<v Speaker 3>a new life. I just don't buy that. He had

841
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:36.039
<v Speaker 3>too many things that he was looking forward to. Remember,

842
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:38.639
<v Speaker 3>one of the things that people said was his life

843
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 3>was his daughter, and that he was getting ready to

844
00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:44.280
<v Speaker 3>be able to retire and go spend more time with her.

845
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:46.760
<v Speaker 3>You got to remember her. His daughter was probably at

846
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.320
<v Speaker 3>the age where they were, you know, fantasizing about what

847
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.119
<v Speaker 3>if she has a grand baby for us and we

848
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:53.519
<v Speaker 3>can go, you know, have our little house and I

849
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:56.199
<v Speaker 3>don't have to be at work, and just kind of

850
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 3>getting a chance to have a second lease on life

851
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:01.760
<v Speaker 3>with your girlfriend and things like that, and your daughter

852
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:05.280
<v Speaker 3>and her growing family. And so that's a no, that

853
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.119
<v Speaker 3>didn't happen in my mind. So it is this fifty

854
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:09.719
<v Speaker 3>to fifty idea of was it a murder or was

855
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:13.320
<v Speaker 3>it a suicide? And both would be incredibly horrific as

856
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:16.800
<v Speaker 3>his family because it's been all of these years, and

857
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:20.719
<v Speaker 3>in your head you're playing, okay, if he completed suicide,

858
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:24.039
<v Speaker 3>there's all the standard questions like why did he suffer

859
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 3>so quietly? What if I had called him more? What

860
00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.559
<v Speaker 3>if you know, why wasn't I enough? Even though that's

861
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 3>none of those things are you know, truthful things. As

862
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.360
<v Speaker 3>someone who's actually planning suicide is thinking about the people

863
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:40.440
<v Speaker 3>they love, but as a survivor, you have all these

864
00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:43.280
<v Speaker 3>complex questions that add to your grief and trauma. So

865
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.119
<v Speaker 3>if that becomes a reality for them, that's a very

866
00:43:47.119 --> 00:43:51.920
<v Speaker 3>difficult outcome, as is if he was murdered and there's

867
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.239
<v Speaker 3>nobody who's going to be brought to justice. Also equally

868
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:58.679
<v Speaker 3>difficult in its own way where they're saying, who did this?

869
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:00.960
<v Speaker 3>Is it someone we know? Oh, because how would they

870
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.840
<v Speaker 3>know he was out of town? Is it somebody who

871
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.039
<v Speaker 3>could put the rest of our family at risk?

872
00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:07.079
<v Speaker 2>You know?

873
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:10.119
<v Speaker 3>Why did they hurt him? And they're they're not gonna

874
00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:11.840
<v Speaker 3>get caught and we're not going to get justice for him.

875
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:16.199
<v Speaker 3>So both are horrific. And this case is really interesting because,

876
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:18.320
<v Speaker 3>like you said, he's a high profile man who had

877
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:22.599
<v Speaker 3>an incredible career. He seemed very stable and God only

878
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:25.239
<v Speaker 3>knows what was happening behind the scenes. But it really

879
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:29.159
<v Speaker 3>does seem like a total mystery of suicide. Doesn't seem

880
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:32.400
<v Speaker 3>like a clear outcome, and neither does a homicide.

881
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:36.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this case is really confounding, and I'm completely on

882
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:40.880
<v Speaker 1>the fence though for some reason, although like the evidence

883
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:43.800
<v Speaker 1>presented in my rational brain says they could go either way,

884
00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:48.679
<v Speaker 1>my gut is leaning towards suicide, and you said, ash

885
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:51.920
<v Speaker 1>either way. It's incredibly tragic because we've got Laara and

886
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 1>Patty who are left behind with all of these questions.

887
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.360
<v Speaker 1>I just keep hearkening back to the fact that his

888
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:02.239
<v Speaker 1>brother Roy completed suicide years prior, and the manner in

889
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.800
<v Speaker 1>which he did it and the scene in which raised

890
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:09.000
<v Speaker 1>car was disposed of, and there's a lot of things

891
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:11.920
<v Speaker 1>that you can kind of interpret either way. But I

892
00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.400
<v Speaker 1>do think there is a distinct possibility. We know he

893
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.920
<v Speaker 1>was sleeping more he was skipping work, and maybe he

894
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.519
<v Speaker 1>was working on something, but maybe he was just having

895
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.280
<v Speaker 1>his mental health deteriorate and he didn't have an outlet

896
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 1>for that. So, although I think both things are possible,

897
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.760
<v Speaker 1>I really wish that we would be able to find

898
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:33.320
<v Speaker 1>Gray gree Car so that Laura and Patty would be

899
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:36.119
<v Speaker 1>able to have his body and be able to maybe

900
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:37.719
<v Speaker 1>get some answers in the process.

901
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is a really difficult one. I remember seeing

902
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.480
<v Speaker 2>it on Disappeared all those years ago and not knowing

903
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:47.000
<v Speaker 2>what to think. But it is clear cut that this

904
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.280
<v Speaker 2>is probably one of those missing persons cases where there

905
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>are only two answers, either murder or suicide. And I

906
00:45:53.559 --> 00:45:56.920
<v Speaker 2>do think that the suicide option is a definite possibility,

907
00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.239
<v Speaker 2>and that there's enough evidence pointing in that direction. But

908
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.639
<v Speaker 2>on the other hand, there are just so many oddities

909
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:04.519
<v Speaker 2>with this case that I just can't rule out the

910
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:06.960
<v Speaker 2>possibility that it was the victim of foul play. I

911
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.760
<v Speaker 2>mean possible that Ray was the one who disposed to

912
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the laptop. But on the other hand, we still don't

913
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:14.960
<v Speaker 2>have an explanation for this mysterious woman who was seen

914
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.800
<v Speaker 2>with Ray and Leuisbourg before he went missing. And who knows.

915
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it could be an encounter where Ray met someone

916
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:24.280
<v Speaker 2>that he had a romantic interest in but she didn't

917
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:27.679
<v Speaker 2>reciprocate it and that made him distraught enough to decide

918
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:29.719
<v Speaker 2>to jump off a bridge and take his own life.

919
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.039
<v Speaker 2>The possibilities are endless, but I still, though, would love

920
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.400
<v Speaker 2>to know what a journalist Rebecca Knight uncovered when she

921
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:41.880
<v Speaker 2>produced the Final Argument podcast, because that seemed like it

922
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.559
<v Speaker 2>was leaning towards a major foul play theory and was

923
00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.320
<v Speaker 2>going to release some sort of bombshell which blew the

924
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:50.760
<v Speaker 2>case wide open, but then nothing but silence, So I

925
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.880
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Maybe she found out she was looking in

926
00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the wrong direction and that there was no conspiracy or

927
00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:58.800
<v Speaker 2>foul play at all, but she seemed pretty certain that

928
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.039
<v Speaker 2>he was the victim of foul and if he was,

929
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what it was related to, if it

930
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:05.840
<v Speaker 2>was related to the Penn State scandal for something else

931
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>he was working on. But if he was murdered, then

932
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:11.280
<v Speaker 2>whoever did it essentially got away with the perfect crime.

933
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Since Ray's body has never been found, and if this

934
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:18.039
<v Speaker 2>laptop contained incriminating information, it was too damage for anyone

935
00:47:18.039 --> 00:47:20.760
<v Speaker 2>to see anything, and there is no real evidence pointing

936
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:23.639
<v Speaker 2>towards foul play. I guess the only way we may

937
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.039
<v Speaker 2>know for sure is if Ray's body is in the

938
00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:29.239
<v Speaker 2>river somewhere. If they are able to recover his remains,

939
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 2>then they will be able to determine with certainty whether

940
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:35.079
<v Speaker 2>his death was a murder or a suicide. But if

941
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.519
<v Speaker 2>it was disposed of in a mine shaft somewhere, then

942
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:39.800
<v Speaker 2>that's going to make this case a lot harder to solve.

943
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:42.960
<v Speaker 2>But Yeah, out of all the unsolved disappearances we've done

944
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.519
<v Speaker 2>from the modern era, I definitely would rank this is

945
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:47.320
<v Speaker 2>one of the ones that I would most like to

946
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:50.199
<v Speaker 2>see solved because I really just don't have any idea

947
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:50.719
<v Speaker 2>what happened.

948
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Robin. Do you want to tell us a little bit

949
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:54.960
<v Speaker 1>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

950
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:58.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

951
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.880
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

952
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.360
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

953
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.239
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

954
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.800
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

955
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:14.960
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

956
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.119
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

957
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.480
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

958
00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:24.280
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

959
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:27.280
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

960
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.639
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

961
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:34.840
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

962
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:38.119
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

963
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:41.559
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

964
00:48:41.559 --> 00:48:44.679
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

965
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.159
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

966
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:51.000
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

967
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

968
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.559
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

969
00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:59.880
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join tiers.

970
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

971
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.119
<v Speaker 4>about the Jewles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

972
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.039
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

973
00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:11.039
<v Speaker 4>Pathwent Chili mini's which are always over an hour, so

974
00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:13.199
<v Speaker 4>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

975
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.159
<v Speaker 4>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

976
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:18.360
<v Speaker 4>so we hope you'll check out those patreons.

977
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:19.880
<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

978
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:22.280
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

979
00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.760
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

980
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:27.159
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly

981
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:29.960
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. You can email us at the Pathwentchili at

982
00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:32.760
<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

983
00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:35.599
<v Speaker 2>the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle

984
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:39.119
<v Speaker 2>up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

985
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy