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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to our next series from the Path Went Chile.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Robin and once again actually is still on a break.

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<v Speaker 1>Hopefully she'll be back soon. But we're gonna still use

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<v Speaker 1>our formula where I share the details about a case

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<v Speaker 1>with Jewles and she gives off her live reaction. So, Jules,

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<v Speaker 1>have you ever heard about the disappearance of Tommy Gibson.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, but I'm sure you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>share all the details with me.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this is about the disappearance of a two and

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<v Speaker 1>a half year old which was once featured on Unsolved Mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>And have you heard of the song Runaway Trained by

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<v Speaker 1>Soul Asylum or seen the music video for it? It

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<v Speaker 1>came out in nineteen ninety three, I believe.

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<v Speaker 2>As any good millennial, I of course remember that video,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember the song, and I remember all of

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<v Speaker 2>the hype that went along with it, and so yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it was one of those haunting videos that I can

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<v Speaker 2>picture in my head. I think of like ones that

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<v Speaker 2>made a real social impact at that time, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think of like Pearl jam Jeremy's Spoken, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>of Soul Asylum's Runaway Train.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this was a pretty big video at the time

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<v Speaker 1>because they showed photographs to think of between twenty and

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<v Speaker 1>thirty children that were provided by the National Center for

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<v Speaker 1>Missing and Exploited Children, and over the years, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of these children have been found, but the Tommy Gibson

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<v Speaker 1>one sticks out because he was featured at the very

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<v Speaker 1>end of the video. His was the last photograph to

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<v Speaker 1>be displayed, and he was also the youngest at only

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<v Speaker 1>two and a half years old, and he technically hasn't

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<v Speaker 1>been found, but there has been kind of a resolution

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<v Speaker 1>in this case, but it's a very frustrating, unsatisfying one,

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<v Speaker 1>and there are still a ton of unanswered questions. It

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<v Speaker 1>garnered more notoriety because the story was featured on Unsolved

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<v Speaker 1>Mysteries and the prime suspect at the time was Tommy's father,

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<v Speaker 1>Larry Gibson, who also happened to be a sheriff's deputy.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not often when you see law enforcement people be

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<v Speaker 1>suspected of being responsible for the disappearances of their own kid,

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<v Speaker 1>and as we're going to talk about, Larry Gibson's interview

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<v Speaker 1>on the show was very suspicious because he seemed like

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<v Speaker 1>one of the most unemotional fathers ever who had lost

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<v Speaker 1>a child, so a lot of people got bad vibes

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<v Speaker 1>from him, and like I mentioned, there is a bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a resolution. But I remember when I covered this

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<v Speaker 1>on the Trail Went Cold two years ago, my friend

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<v Speaker 1>Charlie from the Crime Lines podcast said, this is the

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<v Speaker 1>most unsolved solved case I've ever seen, because even though

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<v Speaker 1>we got a bunch of hypothetical scenarios about what could

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<v Speaker 1>happen to Tommy, I still can't say with any certainty if

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<v Speaker 1>any of them are true.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so interesting too, because when we look back in

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<v Speaker 2>retrospect at a case like this, and when we're looking

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<v Speaker 2>at somebody like Larry Gibson and the way that he's

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<v Speaker 2>choosing to grieve his son or his demeanor on unsolved mysteries,

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<v Speaker 2>when we're looking at it through a lens of today,

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<v Speaker 2>we understand that people process information and grief in very

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<v Speaker 2>different ways. Some people shut down and are very unemotional,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I'm really interested to hear how much of

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<v Speaker 2>that would be a perception of the time, and how

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<v Speaker 2>much of that would be kind of an objective fact,

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<v Speaker 2>in that as much as you can make somebody's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>demeanor or emotional state an objective fact, but more that

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<v Speaker 2>that is a typical reaction to most people who are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing Larry speak about his son, and they're not really

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<v Speaker 2>registering any kind of sadness or any kind of grief

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<v Speaker 2>when he speaks. So that is going to be really

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<v Speaker 2>interesting to me because when we talk about these old cases,

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<v Speaker 2>we have so much more of an understanding of mental

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<v Speaker 2>health today than we did in like the eighties, nineties,

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<v Speaker 2>early two thousands.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the thing. If all they had against Larry

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<v Speaker 1>was his very unemotional interview, I might not be as

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<v Speaker 1>suspicious of them. But of course, as we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>find out, he did a number of very odd things

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<v Speaker 1>on the day his son went missing, so you can

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<v Speaker 1>understand why law enforcement put their focus on him. But

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<v Speaker 1>we have seen documented cases where a parent came across

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<v Speaker 1>really badly when talking about their missing or murdered child

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<v Speaker 1>and it turned out they were completely innocent. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>remember the disappearance of Isabelle Sellus from Arizona?

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<v Speaker 2>No not ringing a bell.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a girl who went missing from her bedroom

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of the night, and for years they

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<v Speaker 1>raked her father over hot coals because they released the

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<v Speaker 1>audio of a nine to one one call he did

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<v Speaker 1>reporting or missing, where he sounded very unemotional, almost flippant,

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<v Speaker 1>and there was some suspicious stuff going on the house.

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<v Speaker 1>His other children were removed by Child Protective Services. But

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<v Speaker 1>it actually turned out that she was kidnapped by an

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<v Speaker 1>intruder who broke into her bedroom, took her, and then

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<v Speaker 1>murdered her, and that the father was completely innocent. So

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<v Speaker 1>there are cases like this where it seems so obvious

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<v Speaker 1>the parents did it, but turnout it actually wasn an

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<v Speaker 1>intruder all along.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is really perplexing, I think, just because from

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<v Speaker 2>a statistical point of view, when law enforcement is looking

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<v Speaker 2>at who could have done this? When someone is harmed

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<v Speaker 2>within a family unit and they're young, like of that age,

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<v Speaker 2>I think more often than not it is somebody close

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<v Speaker 2>to them, somebody within their circle. It's not a stranger abduction.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a very small percentage of the cases that

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<v Speaker 2>we see, and so you can see how sometimes law

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<v Speaker 2>enforcement will get tunnel vision and then without even realizing it,

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<v Speaker 2>they start cherry picking these little details and go, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this fits my narrative, rather than looking at the totality

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<v Speaker 2>of evidence and exploring other avenues. So we see that

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<v Speaker 2>far too often with cases. Another one that really sticks

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<v Speaker 2>with me, and this is like a little left field,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's also a missing child, And I'm curious what

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<v Speaker 2>your thoughts are because the parents behaved really or very strangely.

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<v Speaker 2>Is Door Koons Junior.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've seen a documentary about that one, and I

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<v Speaker 1>definitely have my suspicions about the parents, but I do

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<v Speaker 1>know that they had another independent eyewitness with them. I

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<v Speaker 1>believe it was a friend of the grandfather they did, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>who has always stuck to the same story, even though

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<v Speaker 1>he does not seem like someone who would be very

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<v Speaker 1>skilled at lying. And so that's kind of the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that gives me pause because I'm thinking that, well, i

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<v Speaker 1>can see how some people suspect this is a cover

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<v Speaker 1>up and maybe the child was killed beforehand, it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>even taken on this camping trip. But because this friend

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<v Speaker 1>has always maintained that Door was there, I'm not entirely

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<v Speaker 1>sure what to think on this case.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think you're dealing with like you're dealing

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<v Speaker 2>with a mother in that case and potentially a father

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<v Speaker 2>who have a lot of their own issues. They have

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<v Speaker 2>financial issues, potential mental health issues, and so when people

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<v Speaker 2>appear as though they're hiding things. It's not always that

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<v Speaker 2>they've done something horrible to their child. It couldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>a myriad of other things, especially if they're involved in

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<v Speaker 2>things that may be illegal, or they're taking illicit substances

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<v Speaker 2>anything like that. So it is very interesting with the

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<v Speaker 2>dynamics end up being with law enforcement. So I'm really

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<v Speaker 2>interested to hear the strange moves that Larry made in

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<v Speaker 2>this case.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because as we're going to talk about, he was

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<v Speaker 1>a sheriff's deputy, and usually law enforcement are willing to

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<v Speaker 1>protect their own and give them the benefit of the doubt.

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<v Speaker 1>So the fact that law enforcement was willing to point

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<v Speaker 1>the finger at him and believe he was responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>what happened to his son makes this a very unique case.

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<v Speaker 1>So Tommy Gibson was only thirty two months old at

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<v Speaker 1>the time he disappeared. This took place in nineteen ninety

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<v Speaker 1>one in Azalea, Oregon, which is an unincorporated community located

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<v Speaker 1>in Douglas County. At the time, Tommy was living with

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<v Speaker 1>his parents, Larry and Judy Gibson, and he had also

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<v Speaker 1>a four year old older sister named Karen. They originally

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<v Speaker 1>hailed from Montana, but had been living in Oregon for

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<v Speaker 1>about three years at this point, and Larry was working

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<v Speaker 1>as a deputy for the Douglas County Sheriff's Office in

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<v Speaker 1>the town of Glendale, ten miles away from their home,

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<v Speaker 1>and on the day this incident took place, Larry's half

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<v Speaker 1>brother Michael, also happened to be staying there and would

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<v Speaker 1>be a witness to what happened. So at around eleven

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<v Speaker 1>thirty am on the morning of March eighteenth, nineteen ninety one,

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<v Speaker 1>Larry said that he left his house to go jogging

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<v Speaker 1>and claimed that while he was leaving, he saw Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>playing in the front yard by the porch and told

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<v Speaker 1>him to stay there until his sister came out to

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<v Speaker 1>play with him. So Larry's original story is that he

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<v Speaker 1>went on a jog on a private dirt road and

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<v Speaker 1>covered a distance of approximately two and a half miles,

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<v Speaker 1>and that he returned to his house forty seven minutes

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<v Speaker 1>later and he noticed that Tommy wasn't playing outside, and

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<v Speaker 1>when Larry went in, he spoke to his wife, Judy,

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<v Speaker 1>who said that I went outside ten minutes after you left,

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<v Speaker 1>I discovered Tommy was gone. So I just assumed that

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<v Speaker 1>he went with you, and Larry said, no, he was

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<v Speaker 1>not with me. I left alone, and that's when Judy

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<v Speaker 1>started panicking and they contacted the police in order to

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<v Speaker 1>report Tommy missing.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, first red flag. So, Larry, you're going to go

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<v Speaker 2>on a run that's nearly one hour, you're covering two

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<v Speaker 2>and a half miles, and you have a son that's

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<v Speaker 2>under three years old who's playing alone in the driveway.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you not communicate with your wife, Judy that you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to go on a long run, And why would

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<v Speaker 2>she assume that you're going to bring this like nearly

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<v Speaker 2>three year old child with you. It seems like a

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<v Speaker 2>major breakdown in communication, which seems really atypical in just

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<v Speaker 2>my experience from dealing with friends who have small children

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<v Speaker 2>like that, Like you've got to keep it tight, you've

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<v Speaker 2>got to keep it like almost like the military, in

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<v Speaker 2>that this child is doing this thing, this child is

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<v Speaker 2>doing the other this parent is taking care of the

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<v Speaker 2>child at this very moment, and this other parent is

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<v Speaker 2>responsible for this child and we're not seeing this here

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<v Speaker 2>and that is really ringing some alarm bells for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, as far as I can tell, Larry did tell

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<v Speaker 1>Judy that he was going on a jog, so she

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<v Speaker 1>knew he would be gone. But it does seem strange

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<v Speaker 1>to me that she would come outside see that Tommy

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<v Speaker 1>has gone and automatically assume that Tommy had gone with him,

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<v Speaker 1>Like how typical was it for him to go on

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<v Speaker 1>a jog while carrying around his child. That just seems

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<v Speaker 1>very weird. And I will say that Judy is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a wild card in this case because even though

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement has never directly has never suspected that she

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<v Speaker 1>was directly involved in what happened to Tommy, they have

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<v Speaker 1>wondered if she perhaps knew more than she was letting

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<v Speaker 1>on and may not have been telling the full truth

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<v Speaker 1>about the events that happened that day. So once they

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<v Speaker 1>reported missing, of course this was the child of a

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement figure, so they went all out with the

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<v Speaker 1>search effort. They got the US Air Force Reserve, and

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<v Speaker 1>they got the Oregon State Police and a search and

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<v Speaker 1>rescue effort and had around two hundred people and they

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<v Speaker 1>searched like all throughout the surrounding area because this home

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<v Speaker 1>was pretty much out in the middle of nowhere, a

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<v Speaker 1>very rural area, surrounded by a lot of mountains and

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<v Speaker 1>wooded area, and one scenario which is never really been

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<v Speaker 1>pushed for much in this case is the possibility that

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy could have wandered off on his own and died

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<v Speaker 1>of exposure. I think their logic was is if this

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<v Speaker 1>had happened, they would have found something, because he's only

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<v Speaker 1>thirty two months old, and I don't know how far

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<v Speaker 1>he could have gotten in the span of around forty

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<v Speaker 1>seven minutes. But they searched like everywhere and cannot find

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<v Speaker 1>any trace, nothing to suggest that he had been attacked

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<v Speaker 1>by an animal or something. So initially they were thinking

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<v Speaker 1>that he may have been the victim of a stranger abduction,

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<v Speaker 1>even though this home was located in the middle of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 1>So six weeks after Tommy went missing, the Douglas County

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<v Speaker 1>Sheriff's office announced that after meeting with the Oregon State Police,

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<v Speaker 1>who had taken over the investigation, they had made the

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<v Speaker 1>decision to put Larry on administrative leave and that he

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<v Speaker 1>was indefinitely suspended with pay. They didn't make it sound

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<v Speaker 1>like this was suspicious at first. They said this was

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<v Speaker 1>only done to avoid a potential conflict of interest and

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<v Speaker 1>give Larry a chance to recover from the stress of

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<v Speaker 1>losing Tommy, and when you look back through newspapers dot

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<v Speaker 1>com at the original press coverage, initially there's nothing to

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<v Speaker 1>indicate that Larry is under suspicion, and he actually comes

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<v Speaker 1>across well because while he was on leave, he did

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<v Speaker 1>an interview where he said that he was taken an

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<v Speaker 1>initiative to collect fingerprints from a lot of the local

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<v Speaker 1>children because he had done that with Tommy a short

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<v Speaker 1>time before he went missing, and it says that it's

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<v Speaker 1>always good to have these children's fingerprints on file just

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<v Speaker 1>in case they go missing and you want to do

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of comparison if you find a body, because

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<v Speaker 1>of course this was still in the early days of

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<v Speaker 1>DNA testing, so fingerprints might have been the best chance

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<v Speaker 1>for an identification. And he also took the initiative to

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<v Speaker 1>record a song for Tommy called Tommy, Where Are You Tommy,

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<v Speaker 1>and had actually played on the local radio where he's

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<v Speaker 1>saying about the grief of losing his son and wanting

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<v Speaker 1>to get him back. And at the outset, you're assuming, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>that's really sad and sweet that he's doing that, But

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<v Speaker 1>then when you think that, hmm, Larry may have been

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<v Speaker 1>responsible for what happened, to his son himself, then recording

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<v Speaker 1>a song about his disc appearance and broadcasting on the

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<v Speaker 1>radio seems incredibly odd.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's like Jewel kaylor level, Like he's just being

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<v Speaker 2>flagrant about it. If that is indeed the case that

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<v Speaker 2>he's responsible for a son's disappearance, it just like greeks

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<v Speaker 2>of narcissism. Somebody that needs to have this, He needs

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<v Speaker 2>to have the public be like, oh, poor Larry, Look

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<v Speaker 2>what a hero he is. He's lost his son and

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<v Speaker 2>he's recording this inspirational song, and the fact that he

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<v Speaker 2>took the initiative to get these fingerprints from these children, like,

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<v Speaker 2>what a great guy. He could never be responsible for

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<v Speaker 2>what happened to Tommy. And it seems like you could

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<v Speaker 2>view this through two different lenses, And of course I'm

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<v Speaker 2>viewing it through the lens of skepticism, because you've told

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<v Speaker 2>me that the way that Larry moves throughout this is

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<v Speaker 2>very strange and that suspicion fell on him pretty quickly,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is an unsolved, solved kind of a case,

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<v Speaker 2>So of course I'm going to be side eyeing Larry.

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<v Speaker 2>But if I didn't know all of that information, you

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<v Speaker 2>hadn't told me any of that, I could have just thought,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a father that's trying to get attention for

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<v Speaker 2>the disappearance of his son.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that's what it looked like, because the

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<v Speaker 1>time Larry did it, he was not yet under suspicion.

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<v Speaker 1>He just looked like a reading father. So I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>the entire community felt immense sympathy for him. But I

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00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.799
<v Speaker 1>was going to talk about later, Larry seems like someone

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<v Speaker 1>who actually aspired to have a music career ron So

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00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.759
<v Speaker 1>if he was guilty, then this is kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>twisted thing where it's like, well, I've got a lot

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00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.080
<v Speaker 1>of publicity. Now I'm in the spotlight. I'm going to

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00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.600
<v Speaker 1>use this as an opportunity to potentially further my career

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<v Speaker 1>to go into music. And I know there are other

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<v Speaker 1>documented cases of this. I'm sure you've heard of the

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00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.200
<v Speaker 1>disappearance of Susan Powell, right, Oh, yes, And I know

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00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.279
<v Speaker 1>they did a long form podcast about her disappearance called

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<v Speaker 1>Cold and they talked about her creepy father in lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, that man was the worst.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, And do you recall him the podcast? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if you listened to it. That they played recordings

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00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.600
<v Speaker 1>of a song that he recorded about her, which is

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00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:01.360
<v Speaker 1>like one of the worst pieces music ever produced. So

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00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.600
<v Speaker 1>it's always a red flag when people associated with like

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00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.679
<v Speaker 1>missing people who are under suspicion decide to record songs

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<v Speaker 1>about the victims.

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<v Speaker 2>I truly wish that I could forget some of the

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00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:14.759
<v Speaker 2>details in that Susan Powell podcast, and that song is

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00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:18.919
<v Speaker 2>absolutely one of them. That family, like poor Susan my

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00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:21.039
<v Speaker 2>god having to be married to Josh Powell. And I

302
00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.240
<v Speaker 2>can't remember what the father in law's name is, but

303
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.159
<v Speaker 2>just a top tier creep. And didn't he end up

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00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.720
<v Speaker 2>ending his life he died.

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00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.879
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember if he died of natural causes or

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00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:33.240
<v Speaker 1>he entered on his own life. But I know that

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00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Josh's brother died by suicide after jumping off a high place,

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00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.279
<v Speaker 1>so they've suspected that he might have had knowledge of

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00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.679
<v Speaker 1>what happened or was involved in the cover up. So

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00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.519
<v Speaker 1>it seems like the only logical person in that family

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00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.480
<v Speaker 1>was Josh's sister, who has openly spoken out about them.

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<v Speaker 1>But it just seemed like what a horrible environment to

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<v Speaker 1>grow up in. So it was finally on May the

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00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.879
<v Speaker 1>twenty third, nineteen ninety one, just over two months after

315
00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.639
<v Speaker 1>Tommy went missing when the Oregon State Police filed a

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<v Speaker 1>thirty one page AffA David outlining a number of reasons

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00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.120
<v Speaker 1>why they now considered Larry to be the prime suspect

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00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:09.240
<v Speaker 1>in his son's disappearance, and it concluded with the line

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<v Speaker 1>quote the likelihood of Tommy Gibson being alive and meeting

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<v Speaker 1>any fate other than death at the hands of Larry

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00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:19.120
<v Speaker 1>Gibson is extremely small end quote. So this allowed them

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00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.399
<v Speaker 1>to perform a search of the Gibson's home and they

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00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>took a lot of items into evidence, but perhaps the

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00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.440
<v Speaker 1>strangest one is when they found a spent forty five

325
00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:32.960
<v Speaker 1>caliber shell inside a dresser underneath a pair of children's underwear.

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<v Speaker 1>So this shell would become a key piece of evidence

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00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.639
<v Speaker 1>in the case. And the fact that it appeared that

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00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Larry had gone to the trouble of putting it in

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00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.360
<v Speaker 1>a drawer with children's underwear seems to indicate that he

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00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.320
<v Speaker 1>was trying to hide it and hoped it would never

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<v Speaker 1>be found.

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<v Speaker 2>That is all kinds of creepy. The fact that you

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<v Speaker 2>would hold onto this spent shell, so is this some

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00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of memento or trophy, And the fact that it's

335
00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>under children's underwear. It just up the creepiness factor of

336
00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:03.360
<v Speaker 2>it just exponentially.

337
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:06.240
<v Speaker 1>And that's what's weird about it is because and this

338
00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.119
<v Speaker 1>was such a key piece of evidence. I don't know

339
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.200
<v Speaker 1>why Larry wouldn't have just gotten rid of it to

340
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.680
<v Speaker 1>begin with, but maybe he just felt, well, I'm a

341
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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement officer, no one will suspect me, and they

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00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:17.319
<v Speaker 1>will never search my home, so I'm just going to

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00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:19.839
<v Speaker 1>hide it in here, And of course it backfired on

344
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:21.279
<v Speaker 1>and when it was taken into evidence.

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00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.240
<v Speaker 2>I feel like in this case, there must have been

346
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:28.279
<v Speaker 2>such overwhelming evidence or such a feeling within the sheriff's

347
00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:30.960
<v Speaker 2>department that Larry could be capable of this, or his

348
00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:34.720
<v Speaker 2>behavior was odd because I think we've seen so many

349
00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:38.160
<v Speaker 2>cases over the years where there's been a law enforcement

350
00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.799
<v Speaker 2>agent of some type involved in what could be a murder, disappearance,

351
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:47.079
<v Speaker 2>whatever it is, and they just aren't investigated thoroughly because

352
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of their position in law enforcement. Whether it's blinder's tunnel

353
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:54.240
<v Speaker 2>vision focusing on somebody else, or conspiracy, there's a myriad

354
00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.519
<v Speaker 2>of reasons why that person might not be the point

355
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:02.480
<v Speaker 2>of focus. And I think that within law enforcement often

356
00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.559
<v Speaker 2>is a driving force. So I do find it very

357
00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:09.640
<v Speaker 2>interesting here that they're releasing like thirty pages on Larry

358
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.079
<v Speaker 2>and like why Larry is a suspect.

359
00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:14.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like, to the credit of law enforcement, there is

360
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.400
<v Speaker 1>no indication of a cover up here, Like once they

361
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.839
<v Speaker 1>became suspicious of Larry, they did not hesitate to investigate them.

362
00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:24.440
<v Speaker 1>And to be fair, like this the law enforcement agency

363
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.559
<v Speaker 1>he worked for, the Douglas County Sheriff's Office. It existed

364
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.440
<v Speaker 1>in a rather rural not an area known for high crime,

365
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.079
<v Speaker 1>so they probably never suspected that they would ever have

366
00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.039
<v Speaker 1>a missing children's case of this magnitude, and so they

367
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.079
<v Speaker 1>obviously knew we're kind of out of our depth. So

368
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.559
<v Speaker 1>we turned this over to the Oregon State Police, and

369
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.759
<v Speaker 1>once they started looking at the evidence, they pretty much

370
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<v Speaker 1>said that, yeah, there's something really off about Larry. But

371
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:48.720
<v Speaker 1>it does make me wonder if before this, if he

372
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<v Speaker 1>ever gave off any red flags while he was working

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<v Speaker 1>with the Sheriff's office to make him think that, yeah,

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00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.559
<v Speaker 1>this is someone who would be capable of harming his

375
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.640
<v Speaker 1>own child. So let's start talking about the things that

376
00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.799
<v Speaker 1>Larry did to raise suspect. On the day Tommy went missing,

377
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.759
<v Speaker 1>he had gone out jogging at eleven thirty am, and

378
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.519
<v Speaker 1>his shift with the Sheriff's office was scheduled to begin

379
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.680
<v Speaker 1>at two pm. But obviously, once he discovered Tommy was missing,

380
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.240
<v Speaker 1>he was told by a supervisor not to report to

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00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:17.200
<v Speaker 1>work because he wanted him to stay behind and assist

382
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.920
<v Speaker 1>with the search effort. Yet in spite of this, Larry

383
00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.799
<v Speaker 1>decided to take a shower, put on his police uniform,

384
00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.559
<v Speaker 1>and he was about to leave in his patrol car,

385
00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:28.119
<v Speaker 1>which he still kept at home, in order to report

386
00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.440
<v Speaker 1>to work. And the searchers were asking Larry, what are

387
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.359
<v Speaker 1>you doing. Don't go to work help with the search effort,

388
00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.440
<v Speaker 1>and he said at the time, well, I don't think

389
00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.319
<v Speaker 1>the situation is all that serious. I believe that Tommy

390
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.920
<v Speaker 1>is going to be found relatively quickly. But he ultimately

391
00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.240
<v Speaker 1>did not go to work. But then when nightfall hit,

392
00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.960
<v Speaker 1>some of the searchers built a campfire on the Gibson's

393
00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.480
<v Speaker 1>property to spend the night, and Larry approached him and says,

394
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:52.680
<v Speaker 1>you know what, you better go home because it's really

395
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.599
<v Speaker 1>cold right now and it's about to start snowing. And

396
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:58.119
<v Speaker 1>they're like, your two year old is out there if

397
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.039
<v Speaker 1>it's going to get cold and snow. Don't you you

398
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.079
<v Speaker 1>want him to be found quickly? Don't you want the

399
00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:05.119
<v Speaker 1>searchers there? But he's just acting all lack of days

400
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.400
<v Speaker 1>ago about the whole thing, saying that Tommy's going to

401
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.319
<v Speaker 1>be found eventually. It's not that serious, even though nightfall

402
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.279
<v Speaker 1>is hitting so already they're getting vibes that, yeah, this

403
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.480
<v Speaker 1>guy already knows what happened to his son.

404
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was one hundred percent what I was thinking.

405
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.519
<v Speaker 2>If you're behaving in that manner where you're not seeming

406
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.440
<v Speaker 2>worried for one, Okay, I don't know how people wouldn't

407
00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:29.279
<v Speaker 2>necessarily react when you find out that your child is missing.

408
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:31.319
<v Speaker 2>But I think if you've just had a jog and

409
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:34.200
<v Speaker 2>you're sweaty, the last thing on your mind is going

410
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:36.559
<v Speaker 2>to be I need to shower up and get clean.

411
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.079
<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to be looking for your child.

412
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:42.200
<v Speaker 2>That would be priority one, and getting dressed to get

413
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.640
<v Speaker 2>into work when you've been told not to. Your priority

414
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.359
<v Speaker 2>should be at home. Even if they told you to

415
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:50.359
<v Speaker 2>come into work, I would think you would say, absolutely not,

416
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to look for Tommy like that is the

417
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.640
<v Speaker 2>only thing that is on my mind. I don't care

418
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.200
<v Speaker 2>if I lose my job. My son that's nearly three

419
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.079
<v Speaker 2>years old is missing, and I'm going to find him.

420
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.160
<v Speaker 2>But instead he's acting like this is a foregone conclusion,

421
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.240
<v Speaker 2>like oh, yeah, Tommy is going to be fine. It's

422
00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:10.039
<v Speaker 2>not that serious. It's like he already knows that Tommy

423
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.480
<v Speaker 2>is in a place that is beyond people worrying about him.

424
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Now he's you know, crossed over, because I just can't

425
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.480
<v Speaker 2>think of any other way to interpret him not being worried.

426
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.480
<v Speaker 2>If you know that your son is deceased, you know

427
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.240
<v Speaker 2>that he's passed, and all this is subterfused to cover

428
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:29.880
<v Speaker 2>this up. He's not doing a very good job because,

429
00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.759
<v Speaker 2>like you said, like his lasadaisical attitude towards finding his

430
00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:35.920
<v Speaker 2>son only makes him look guilty. But I don't think

431
00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.079
<v Speaker 2>that he's necessarily thought out the way that he's going

432
00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:43.400
<v Speaker 2>to be perceived by others. And maybe that gives us

433
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>a hint into how other people at the Sheriff's Department

434
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.160
<v Speaker 2>may have perceived him in a general sense, which might

435
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.279
<v Speaker 2>have led them to saying, okay, like Larry might be

436
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:53.440
<v Speaker 2>responsible for this.

437
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because during the Unsold Mysteries interview, he always talked

438
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.640
<v Speaker 1>in a very monotone voice where he just did not

439
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:01.839
<v Speaker 1>seem to have much emotion at all, And it makes

440
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:03.880
<v Speaker 1>me think, I wonder if he's like this all the time,

441
00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:07.000
<v Speaker 1>where he just does not come across as an affectionate

442
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.599
<v Speaker 1>person who loves his wife and children. And during his interview,

443
00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:12.720
<v Speaker 1>he gave off an infamous line saying that, well, the

444
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:15.160
<v Speaker 1>reason I wanted to report to work is because I

445
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.279
<v Speaker 1>thought we were going to be find Tommy in a

446
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:20.039
<v Speaker 1>place that we hadn't searched before, and we were going

447
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.640
<v Speaker 1>to be embarrassed that we didn't search this place right away.

448
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:24.880
<v Speaker 1>And it's like, I don't think anyone who has lost

449
00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.440
<v Speaker 1>their child is going to worry about being embarrassed because

450
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.759
<v Speaker 1>you found your child in an obvious place that you

451
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:32.400
<v Speaker 1>forgot to look for. So he really can't come up

452
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.920
<v Speaker 1>with a logical explanation for why he acted that way

453
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:35.400
<v Speaker 1>that day.

454
00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 2>I think I really wonder with the interview where he's

455
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.759
<v Speaker 2>coming off very monotone and hard to read. Is this

456
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:47.200
<v Speaker 2>somebody who is well versed in body language in micro expressions,

457
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Like if you are going to be speaking in a

458
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 2>way that is very monotone without giving voice inflections, it's

459
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.599
<v Speaker 2>harder to interpret deception because like, if your baseline is

460
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.039
<v Speaker 2>the way that you're carrying through the whole time, but

461
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.839
<v Speaker 2>if you are not making micro expressions on your face,

462
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.640
<v Speaker 2>if you aren't using gestures or illustrators, it's hard to

463
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.000
<v Speaker 2>spot incongruity between your spoken words and your gestures. So

464
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.559
<v Speaker 2>the less that somebody is doing that could be a

465
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:18.680
<v Speaker 2>strategy in order to avoid giving off deceptive behaviors.

466
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:21.559
<v Speaker 1>That's possible. I mean, I don't know if he's really

467
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.359
<v Speaker 1>that sophisticated to do something like this, But after we're

468
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:26.400
<v Speaker 1>recording this, I should send you a clip of the

469
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.359
<v Speaker 1>Unsolved Mystery segment because you've done statement analysis in the

470
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:32.039
<v Speaker 1>past and you might have a very interesting one once

471
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:36.559
<v Speaker 1>you watch Larry's interview. So Larry would be interviewed by

472
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.359
<v Speaker 1>the FBI, who got involved in the investigation because at

473
00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:41.480
<v Speaker 1>first they wondered if it might have been a kidnapping

474
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.400
<v Speaker 1>and if Tommy was taken across state lines, and his

475
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.480
<v Speaker 1>original story that even though he tried to report to work,

476
00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.119
<v Speaker 1>he said that he never actually left the property on

477
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.960
<v Speaker 1>the day's sun went missing, but like I said, he

478
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.640
<v Speaker 1>kept his patrol car park there. And because this is

479
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.440
<v Speaker 1>a law enforcement vehicle, they kept like all the mileage.

480
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 1>They kept a log for it, and they realized that

481
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.079
<v Speaker 1>the odometer had seven miles on there, which could not

482
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.400
<v Speaker 1>be accounted for. So when the Oregon State Police confronted

483
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Larry with this information, he finally admitted that, oh yeah,

484
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.480
<v Speaker 1>after I put on my uniform, I did leave the

485
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.279
<v Speaker 1>property in the patrol car while the search effort was

486
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.680
<v Speaker 1>taken place because I was worried that Tommy may have

487
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.440
<v Speaker 1>been abducted and driven two and a half miles to

488
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.640
<v Speaker 1>a rest area on Interstate five, so I went there.

489
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:26.640
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't find Tommy, so I checked the northbound rest area,

490
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.480
<v Speaker 1>but once again came up empty. And then I returned

491
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:32.480
<v Speaker 1>to the property after between thirty to forty minutes. And

492
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.359
<v Speaker 1>that does kind of make sense from a logical point

493
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.000
<v Speaker 1>of view, But the problem is he initially claimed that

494
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.039
<v Speaker 1>he never left the property that day, and then is

495
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.240
<v Speaker 1>suddenly providing this story once he's been confronted with a discrepancy.

496
00:24:44.440 --> 00:24:48.880
<v Speaker 1>So obviously an investigator's eyes alarm bells are ringing thinking, hmm,

497
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.240
<v Speaker 1>could he have left the property because he wanted to

498
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:52.279
<v Speaker 1>dispose of something?

499
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.440
<v Speaker 2>That sounds a lot more likely. But unfortunately, if he's

500
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.960
<v Speaker 2>there's seven miles that are unaccounted for on that a doomita,

501
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.240
<v Speaker 2>then that body could basically be three and a half

502
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.599
<v Speaker 2>miles away, right, Yeah, And.

503
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:09.240
<v Speaker 1>I know this is a rural area where there isn't

504
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:11.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot around, But he was gone for like a

505
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.680
<v Speaker 1>very short amount of time, and he didn't travel that far.

506
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:16.839
<v Speaker 1>So it makes me wonder, what do you have had

507
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.319
<v Speaker 1>enough time to dispose of Tommy's body in such a

508
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.000
<v Speaker 1>limited window of time and done it so thoroughly that

509
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.359
<v Speaker 1>they still haven't found him over thirty years later.

510
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.559
<v Speaker 2>But don't you feel like it's possible that he could

511
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.039
<v Speaker 2>have found a good place just to stash the body,

512
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.119
<v Speaker 2>like maybe under some brush, maybe you know, just a

513
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:34.039
<v Speaker 2>spot that would be out of prying eyes that he

514
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 2>figured within the first you know, few days, they're not

515
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.519
<v Speaker 2>going to search there, and then later on I can

516
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.680
<v Speaker 2>go back and dispose of his body better. I can,

517
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, dig a hole or you know, put him

518
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:46.759
<v Speaker 2>in a body of water or whatever he chose to

519
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.880
<v Speaker 2>do that concealed the body so well that it's never

520
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.799
<v Speaker 2>been found if he did indeed do it, I think

521
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>that if there's just a very short time, unless you've

522
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.440
<v Speaker 2>got like a mine shaft to put a body down.

523
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.799
<v Speaker 2>There's really no way that you can dispose of a

524
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.079
<v Speaker 2>body so quickly that it's never found unless it's just

525
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:04.759
<v Speaker 2>sheer luck.

526
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, this could just be just pure luck,

527
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:09.960
<v Speaker 1>or like you said, he just hit it in a

528
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 1>temporary location and then once he knew that the search

529
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 1>effort was done and he wasn't being watched twenty four

530
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.119
<v Speaker 1>to seven, he can make another trip there and put

531
00:26:17.160 --> 00:26:19.599
<v Speaker 1>Tommy's body in another location where it would be much

532
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.599
<v Speaker 1>harder to find. Yeah, gave Larry a polygraph test, and

533
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.599
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting. They said that he technically wound up passing,

534
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.279
<v Speaker 1>but the results still indicated that he may have known

535
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.720
<v Speaker 1>more than he was letting on. And they gave a

536
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.119
<v Speaker 1>polygraph to his wife, Judy, and it pretty much got

537
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 1>the same results where she technically passed, but investigators wondered

538
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:40.279
<v Speaker 1>if she knew more than she was letting on. And

539
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm always wondering how lie detector tests interpret things, where

540
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.359
<v Speaker 1>if you have suspicions that someone might be responsible for

541
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:51.039
<v Speaker 1>someone but you don't know for certain, Like if they asked, Judy,

542
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.279
<v Speaker 1>do you do know that your husband, Larry was responsible

543
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.400
<v Speaker 1>for your son's disappearance? And if she says no, but

544
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 1>the results give a false positive, could it be because

545
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.440
<v Speaker 1>she secretly suspects Larry was responsible, but she doesn't know

546
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:05.680
<v Speaker 1>one hundred percent certain. So that's one of those things

547
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:09.119
<v Speaker 1>about why polygraphs are unreliable, where it's like you can't

548
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 1>really determine whether someone actually has knowledge of what happened,

549
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:14.920
<v Speaker 1>or if may have suspicions about what happened.

550
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's really strange, and I think this is the

551
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.160
<v Speaker 2>first time that I've heard where they don't call it inconclusive,

552
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.400
<v Speaker 2>they call it a technical pass, but they still have suspicions.

553
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:29.720
<v Speaker 2>And I'm wondering if within the Sheriff's department, the way

554
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.759
<v Speaker 2>that they did polygraphs at the time, if they would

555
00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:37.960
<v Speaker 2>have a certain threshold where say, you know, somebody's asked

556
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.079
<v Speaker 2>a certain question, and a polygraph doesn't measure lies, that

557
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:44.160
<v Speaker 2>measures physiological changes, And just for example, say that Judy

558
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:47.880
<v Speaker 2>was asked do you think that Larry was responsible? And

559
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.359
<v Speaker 2>her heart rate increased ten beats per minute and maybe

560
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 2>she started to sweat a little bit, But it had

561
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 2>to be a threshold of fifteen beats per minutent in

562
00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.759
<v Speaker 2>order for it to be deception or possibly she knows

563
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:02.599
<v Speaker 2>more so it was a technical pass, but it was

564
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:03.640
<v Speaker 2>right on that line.

565
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 1>That's what I'm thinking, that it's something like that where

566
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 1>they have their suspicions but they didn't really get caught

567
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.119
<v Speaker 1>in lies, like it didn't really break the machine or anything,

568
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:14.440
<v Speaker 1>and show that there's a lot of deceptions. But it's

569
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:16.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of similar to when we did the murder of

570
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Terry McClure on this podcast years ago, where her son

571
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.119
<v Speaker 1>Tim was the prime suspect, and they gave a polygraph

572
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.559
<v Speaker 1>test to his wife and the only question she flunked

573
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.200
<v Speaker 1>was do you know who killed Terry McClure, And I wondered,

574
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.599
<v Speaker 1>is it because she knows Tim killed Terry? Or is

575
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.039
<v Speaker 1>it because she suspects Tims killed Terry? And it's still

576
00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:35.559
<v Speaker 1>registered as a false positive.

577
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 2>All I remember from like that case, I remember Terry,

578
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:44.079
<v Speaker 2>I remember the casino, but I also remember Tim's intense mullet.

579
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:46.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly where they showed his wedding photo and it

580
00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:50.119
<v Speaker 1>was like the greatest mullet you've ever seen. So here's

581
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.440
<v Speaker 1>another hole in Larry's story. As you might recall, he

582
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.720
<v Speaker 1>claimed that way he went jogging, he covered two and

583
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a half miles and was gone for a total of

584
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.880
<v Speaker 1>forty seven minutes, but he was asked for by the

585
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.359
<v Speaker 1>exact route. He took two investigators and when they retraced it,

586
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.440
<v Speaker 1>they realized it was actually only one mile rather than

587
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.799
<v Speaker 1>two and a half miles, and that if someone was jogging,

588
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:13.200
<v Speaker 1>it should have taken them between eighteen to twenty minutes

589
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.960
<v Speaker 1>to go to this spot and then come back to

590
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.680
<v Speaker 1>the house. So it's like, technically, if it took Larry

591
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.759
<v Speaker 1>forty seven minutes to cover that entire distance, that's technically

592
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:23.279
<v Speaker 1>not jogging. You would have to be walking as a

593
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:25.960
<v Speaker 1>slow crawl to cover that distance in a full forty

594
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.519
<v Speaker 1>seven minutes, which leads to speculation that maybe started off

595
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:32.720
<v Speaker 1>jogging but needed part of this time to cover up

596
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.039
<v Speaker 1>something that he had done.

597
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.680
<v Speaker 2>So, as far as Larry goes and his physical fitness,

598
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:41.839
<v Speaker 2>did he regularly jog prior to this like behavior of

599
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Larry's or was this just something that randomly seemed to

600
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:45.839
<v Speaker 2>happen on this day.

601
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:48.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't have that information. I mean, if you look

602
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.240
<v Speaker 1>at photographs of Larry, he does not look like a

603
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>fitness freak. He does not look like someone who would

604
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:55.240
<v Speaker 1>be jogging a lot, unless he was trying to lose weight,

605
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:58.519
<v Speaker 1>but I never have specifically said anyone say that he

606
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.920
<v Speaker 1>never jogged but then just happened to do so on

607
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.000
<v Speaker 1>this particular day. So I will give him some leeway

608
00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:06.880
<v Speaker 1>and say that maybe he was starting off jogging that

609
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:11.119
<v Speaker 1>day until something happened. So this is when things get

610
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:13.880
<v Speaker 1>even weirder, because there was a neighbor of the Gibson

611
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.319
<v Speaker 1>family named Jennifer Kleine who said that sometime after eleven

612
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:20.559
<v Speaker 1>thirty am on the morning of Tommy's disappearance, she recalled

613
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.880
<v Speaker 1>hearing a gunshot, and a short time later she noticed

614
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:27.359
<v Speaker 1>that her cat was missing. And the following day, Jennifer

615
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:29.839
<v Speaker 1>was searching for her cat, and she bumped into Larry,

616
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:33.160
<v Speaker 1>who was participating in the search effort for Tommy, and

617
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:35.200
<v Speaker 1>he said, oh, by the way, I fear that I

618
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:38.559
<v Speaker 1>might have actually shot your cat yesterday. Because we had

619
00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.440
<v Speaker 1>a big problem with stray cats coming onto her property,

620
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 1>and because I couldn't give them away to the Humane Society,

621
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.400
<v Speaker 1>I started shooting them. But I think it's a possibility

622
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.559
<v Speaker 1>that when I shot a cat that morning, I wound

623
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:53.279
<v Speaker 1>up shooting your cat by mistake. And sure enough, Jennifer

624
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.640
<v Speaker 1>soon found her dead cat and buried it on her property,

625
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.640
<v Speaker 1>and when Larry became a suspect, investigators felt to pay

626
00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:03.519
<v Speaker 1>a visit in order to dig up the cat's body,

627
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:05.880
<v Speaker 1>and sure enough, it was true. There was a slug

628
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:09.240
<v Speaker 1>in there, and it actually matched the shellcasing which had

629
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:12.920
<v Speaker 1>been found in the drawer in Larry's residence underneath the

630
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:13.920
<v Speaker 1>children's underwear.

631
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, this just adds a whole other layer of strange

632
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:22.000
<v Speaker 2>behavior to Larry. Somebody that's going to just randomly kill

633
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.359
<v Speaker 2>cats knowing that there's a strong likelihood that one of

634
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:28.759
<v Speaker 2>these cats belongs to his neighbor, It just doesn't really

635
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:32.039
<v Speaker 2>paint a picture of a very nice guy, and it

636
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.160
<v Speaker 2>really does call into question what he is indeed capable

637
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:35.640
<v Speaker 2>of doing.

638
00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because the Unsaw Mystery segment, when they do Larry's interview,

639
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:41.400
<v Speaker 1>this is pretty much one of the first things he

640
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>talks about, saying that, oh, yeah, I sometimes would pull

641
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.440
<v Speaker 1>up my gun and shoot cats straight cats the wandered

642
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.079
<v Speaker 1>onto my property. And when people watch the segment, they

643
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.279
<v Speaker 1>don't even hear the evidence about his potential culpability and

644
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Tommy's disappearance. They just hear that he shot a cat,

645
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.319
<v Speaker 1>and they automatically start hating him. It's kind of like

646
00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.359
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of making a murderer. We're in the first

647
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.160
<v Speaker 1>fifty minute. They say that Steve and Avery threw a

648
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.519
<v Speaker 1>cat into a bonfire, and they pretty much say, I

649
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:06.920
<v Speaker 1>don't care if he's guilty or innocent. I hate this

650
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:08.279
<v Speaker 1>man with all my passion.

651
00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:12.000
<v Speaker 2>It reminds me of that documentary Don't f with Cats.

652
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I remember that. Yes, we're pretty much a concept

653
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.640
<v Speaker 1>that so many true crime fans are a lot more

654
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 1>sensitive when they hear about violence against animals rather than

655
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:22.079
<v Speaker 1>violence against people.

656
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think it makes sense that, especially children

657
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.480
<v Speaker 2>and animals, it's the hardest for me personally to hear.

658
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:30.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think a lot of people will echo those

659
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:35.759
<v Speaker 2>same sentiments because they're truly innocent, and to predate on

660
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.319
<v Speaker 2>a child or to predate on an animal who are

661
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:41.599
<v Speaker 2>so one hundred percent dependent on you for their survival,

662
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:45.519
<v Speaker 2>it's just whereas when it's done to adults, we have

663
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.119
<v Speaker 2>this way of almost like excusing and justifying and distancing

664
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.920
<v Speaker 2>ourselves from what happened to somebody else, which is where

665
00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:55.039
<v Speaker 2>we get into like victim blaming territory. And people do

666
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>that because it creates a safer space for them to

667
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.440
<v Speaker 2>be like, oh, this could never happen to me because

668
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 2>of a B and C, whereas with a child or

669
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:05.559
<v Speaker 2>an animal, we don't have the ability to do that.

670
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:09.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And I think they just hate Larry for

671
00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:11.920
<v Speaker 1>doing this because cats are so defenseless and it just

672
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 1>seems that if you have stray cats rounding or your property,

673
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:17.039
<v Speaker 1>don't shoot them, Like there's so much other stuff you

674
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.759
<v Speaker 1>could do, And they just found it very odd because Larry,

675
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.920
<v Speaker 1>when they finally questioned him about it, said that, Yeah,

676
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:24.160
<v Speaker 1>it's fairly common for me when I go jogging to

677
00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:27.839
<v Speaker 1>carry a forty five automatic handgun and my shoulder holster,

678
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:29.960
<v Speaker 1>which would kind of make sense if you were jogging

679
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.559
<v Speaker 1>in a dangerous area, but this is the middle of nowhere,

680
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:34.960
<v Speaker 1>so you're not going to run into a dangerous person.

681
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:37.039
<v Speaker 1>So it just seems like, yeah, I go jogging and

682
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.240
<v Speaker 1>I carry the gun because I sometimes like to shoot

683
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.720
<v Speaker 1>cats just for fun or something like that. But Larry

684
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.599
<v Speaker 1>did confirm that when he went jogging before he discovered

685
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Tommy went missing, that he did fire a gun at

686
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.599
<v Speaker 1>a cat, and he initially thought that the cat was

687
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:53.480
<v Speaker 1>not actually hit, that it just ran off into the woods,

688
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:56.079
<v Speaker 1>and it was not until the following day, when he

689
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.880
<v Speaker 1>discovered Jennifer Klein searching for her own cat, that he

690
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.200
<v Speaker 1>realized that, Oh, I may have actually killed it. Sorry

691
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:05.119
<v Speaker 1>about that, that I shot this cat that belocked to you.

692
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:06.119
<v Speaker 1>Very bizarre.

693
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's so weird. And I raised the alternate scenario

694
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 2>that Larry never jogged, that Larry just liked to go

695
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.880
<v Speaker 2>out on foot with his gun and look for cats.

696
00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:20.199
<v Speaker 2>That sounds like a more believable scenario, especially when we

697
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.199
<v Speaker 2>figure how long it took him to do that quote

698
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:26.719
<v Speaker 2>unquote jog I think Larry probably liked to fill his

699
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:30.239
<v Speaker 2>time with doing weird things like that, because just to

700
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.079
<v Speaker 2>carry a gun in case like it, none of it

701
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.280
<v Speaker 2>seems to be in alignment. And like you said, he

702
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.239
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a fitness freak looking type of a guy, and

703
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.280
<v Speaker 2>we don't hear from other people that he was a

704
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.280
<v Speaker 2>regular jogger. So I call into question that Larry ever jogged.

705
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, That's what I'm thinking, is that maybe he just

706
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:48.920
<v Speaker 1>went out into the woods to look for cats to

707
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.239
<v Speaker 1>shoot because he enjoyed it for some reason. When you

708
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 1>hear the way he talks, he definitely seems to fit

709
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:56.239
<v Speaker 1>the profile of someone who might do that. But this

710
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:59.800
<v Speaker 1>is important because this information actually caused the Oregon State

711
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.519
<v Speaker 1>least a formulate a theory about what might have happened

712
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:06.000
<v Speaker 1>to Tommy. They speculated that when Larry fired the shot,

713
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the bullet may have passed through the cat's body and

714
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 1>accidentally struck Tommy in the distance while he was playing

715
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 1>in the front yard, because even though they found the

716
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:17.440
<v Speaker 1>shell casing, they never actually found the bullet, and if

717
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Larry was jogging or just going out in the woods

718
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.239
<v Speaker 1>looking for cats, he may not have realized this until

719
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:25.800
<v Speaker 1>he returned home, and then after discovering Tommy's body, he

720
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:28.800
<v Speaker 1>panicked and started cleaning up the scene, and then proceeded

721
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:31.199
<v Speaker 1>to put Tommy's body in the trunk of his patrol

722
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:35.119
<v Speaker 1>car before calling the authorities to report him missing. And then,

723
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.159
<v Speaker 1>at his ear least opportunity, Larry then drove the patrol

724
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:41.239
<v Speaker 1>car off the property and disposed of Tommy's body at

725
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 1>a nearby location.

726
00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.639
<v Speaker 2>All of that sounds like a really good theory to me,

727
00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:48.840
<v Speaker 2>But the only questions that I would raise here would

728
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.400
<v Speaker 2>be if Tommy was indeed caught by a stray bullet

729
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and or not a stray bullet. The bullet intended for

730
00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the cat and he ended up bleeding out. I don't

731
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:01.880
<v Speaker 2>know what this property looks like, or if there would

732
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:05.280
<v Speaker 2>be the ability to where Tommy would have landed that

733
00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:08.079
<v Speaker 2>it could camouflage the blood. But if you're going to

734
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:11.800
<v Speaker 2>have a child who's basically going to die from exanguination,

735
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.559
<v Speaker 2>so body being emptied of blood, there would be a

736
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.840
<v Speaker 2>considerable amount. So maybe if it was on the grass

737
00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:21.800
<v Speaker 2>in a place where you wouldn't necessarily look on a

738
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.800
<v Speaker 2>huge property, But if it's on gravel or something, you're

739
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.239
<v Speaker 2>going to see this huge puddle of blood.

740
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.199
<v Speaker 1>That is true. Yeah, Like, even though Larry would have

741
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:32.800
<v Speaker 1>had the opportunity to clean himself up, you would think

742
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.239
<v Speaker 1>that they would find something to suggest that blood may

743
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.840
<v Speaker 1>have been there at some point. And to be fair,

744
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.360
<v Speaker 1>Judy's account seemed to coohola in that theory, because she

745
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:44.920
<v Speaker 1>actually recalled hearing the gunshot that morning and claimed that

746
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:47.000
<v Speaker 1>it compelled her to look out the window and she

747
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.880
<v Speaker 1>still saw Tommy playing outside in the driveway. So she's

748
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.079
<v Speaker 1>thinking to herself that, Okay, even if something did happen

749
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 1>to Tommy, I can't confirm he was still alive at

750
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:00.320
<v Speaker 1>the time. Larry fired that shot, So that was one

751
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.880
<v Speaker 1>of the reasons why they obviously didn't have enough evidence

752
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.800
<v Speaker 1>to foul charges against Larry. But once again makes you wonder,

753
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.639
<v Speaker 1>does Judy have more knowledge of what's happening here than

754
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.840
<v Speaker 1>she's letting on and could she be lying in order

755
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:11.920
<v Speaker 1>to cover for her a husband.

756
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the thing is we can't really trust Judy's

757
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.280
<v Speaker 2>account of what happened here because even if Larry didn't

758
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.440
<v Speaker 2>tell her to lie for him, she might have taken

759
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:26.920
<v Speaker 2>that on herself. Because this is the early nineties and

760
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Judy has a family with Larry, and she could be

761
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.519
<v Speaker 2>in this position where she's lost her son and it

762
00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:35.599
<v Speaker 2>could have been an accident, and maybe that's what she's

763
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:39.840
<v Speaker 2>telling herself. And the idea that Larry could then go

764
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:43.280
<v Speaker 2>to jail that could just create a whole other world

765
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.719
<v Speaker 2>of difficulty for Judy. So there's so many different things

766
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:50.360
<v Speaker 2>to consider and a lot of reasons that she may

767
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:54.360
<v Speaker 2>choose to fudge the details a little bit without Larry

768
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.599
<v Speaker 2>even directing her to do so.

769
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Possibly, Yeah, like she hates the idea of Larry like

770
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.400
<v Speaker 1>going to jail and breaking up her family. But of course,

771
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.719
<v Speaker 1>the big issue was is if this had legitimately been

772
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.039
<v Speaker 1>an accident and he was just killed by a stray

773
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.719
<v Speaker 1>bullet that passed through the cat. I still wonder if

774
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:11.880
<v Speaker 1>charges would have been filed against Larry if he had

775
00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 1>just admitted to what he did. Because he was a

776
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.760
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement officer, he would have gotten a lot of leeway.

777
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:19.239
<v Speaker 1>But he strikes me as a kind of guy though,

778
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:22.599
<v Speaker 1>who is very direct about trying to maintain his image.

779
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:24.639
<v Speaker 1>So of course he seems like someone where if he

780
00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:27.199
<v Speaker 1>discovered that he accidentally killed his son, even if there

781
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:29.639
<v Speaker 1>was no chance of him facing any jail time, he

782
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:31.400
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't want to be looked at as a guy who

783
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:34.199
<v Speaker 1>was responsible for his son's death, So his first inclination

784
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.199
<v Speaker 1>would be to cover it up and then lie law enforcement.

785
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:41.559
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can understand that perspective. It seems like

786
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.880
<v Speaker 2>it would be a very small percentage of people, if

787
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.599
<v Speaker 2>they accidentally killed their child, would first go into cover

788
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.639
<v Speaker 2>up mode. But he is the law enforcement officer. I'm

789
00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:53.519
<v Speaker 2>sure he's considering if this gets found out, I will

790
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.280
<v Speaker 2>lose my job. I'm firing a gun at this cat,

791
00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:59.559
<v Speaker 2>I kill my son if that is indeed the way

792
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.920
<v Speaker 2>it happened, and then I'm going to be labeled as

793
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:05.159
<v Speaker 2>this child killer. People are going to side on me.

794
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:07.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to be able to move through life

795
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in the same way as if, say, my son was abducted.

796
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Then he gets to take on the role and gets

797
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to spin this whole victim narrative where this has been

798
00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:20.159
<v Speaker 2>done to him. He hasn't done it to his son.

799
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.079
<v Speaker 1>That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, that he just strikes me

800
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:25.400
<v Speaker 1>as someone who wants to get the sympathy from losing

801
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:27.039
<v Speaker 1>his son, but doesn't want to get any of the

802
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:31.079
<v Speaker 1>blame for causing his death. So once the detectives from

803
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:34.400
<v Speaker 1>the Oregon State Police formulated this theory about the bullets

804
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 1>traveling through the cat and accidentally striking Tommy, they decided

805
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.639
<v Speaker 1>to confront Larry with it in an interview, and then

806
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:43.639
<v Speaker 1>he provided a very odd response, quote, it could have

807
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:46.480
<v Speaker 1>happened that way, and it's possible. It's the only thing

808
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:49.400
<v Speaker 1>that makes sense end quote. And then he made another

809
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.480
<v Speaker 1>odd statement about his half brother Michael, who was staying

810
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.920
<v Speaker 1>at the residence on the day of Tommy's disappearance, saying that, well,

811
00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:59.639
<v Speaker 1>possibly while I was out jogging, maybe Michael found Tommy's body.

812
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Then decided to move it without my knowledge, which is

813
00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 1>a very odd thing to say. And then Larry said that, oh,

814
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:10.239
<v Speaker 1>I was only speaking hypothetically about things that could have

815
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.400
<v Speaker 1>happened when I made these statements, but I denied the

816
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.599
<v Speaker 1>allegations that I was responsible for shooting Tommy or that

817
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.639
<v Speaker 1>myself or anyone else from my family were responsible for

818
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 1>what happened to him. And Michael is another wild card

819
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.719
<v Speaker 1>in this case because the only mention that he was

820
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:26.559
<v Speaker 1>there that morning, but he has never given off any interviews,

821
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.599
<v Speaker 1>he has never shared his opinion about whether he believes

822
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:32.519
<v Speaker 1>Larry could have done something. And here's Larry pretty much

823
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:35.039
<v Speaker 1>trying to throw him to the wolves and say that, oh,

824
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:38.000
<v Speaker 1>maybe he decided to move Tommy's body without my knowing.

825
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.320
<v Speaker 1>So it makes me wonder what the relationship is like

826
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.039
<v Speaker 1>between them if he's willing to make statements like that.

827
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:47.960
<v Speaker 2>It almost makes me feel like Michael didn't have anything

828
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:50.079
<v Speaker 2>to do with it, because I feel like if he

829
00:40:50.239 --> 00:40:53.559
<v Speaker 2>genuinely did help Larry and then Larry threw him under

830
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:56.840
<v Speaker 2>the bus, he's a lot more likely to then just go, uhh,

831
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going down for this. Larry recruited me after

832
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.039
<v Speaker 2>the fact to help dispose of the body, and yes,

833
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:04.840
<v Speaker 2>I help my brother, but yes I will testify against him.

834
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be tied up in this any

835
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.079
<v Speaker 2>more than I already am. But we don't see that.

836
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:13.400
<v Speaker 2>So I'm just going off my gut feeling here and

837
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:17.480
<v Speaker 2>nothing more that if he truly was involved, that Larry

838
00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:19.840
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have thrown him under the bus so easily. So

839
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.239
<v Speaker 2>even though he's a bit of a hidden variable and

840
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:26.679
<v Speaker 2>we know very little about Michael, just the way that

841
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Larry is positing this theory about how he could have

842
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.760
<v Speaker 2>moved the body without his knowledge. When somebody is proposing

843
00:41:33.800 --> 00:41:37.239
<v Speaker 2>these theories, it is a huge indicator of deception. You're

844
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 2>trying to say, look over here, look over here. And

845
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:44.239
<v Speaker 2>so Larry's just trying to do anything he can to

846
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.559
<v Speaker 2>get the focus off of himself. And Michael seems to

847
00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:50.400
<v Speaker 2>be a convenient scapegoat because he's staying in the home.

848
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.000
<v Speaker 2>But there's no evidence to back up that Michael had

849
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.320
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with it, and Larry's the one that

850
00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:56.760
<v Speaker 2>is acting very strangely.

851
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 1>Oh definitely, Like law enforcement has never pointed their suspicions

852
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.039
<v Speaker 1>against Michael, and they never even said, like with Judy,

853
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.079
<v Speaker 1>where they suspect that she's withholding information. They have never

854
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:09.119
<v Speaker 1>said that about Michael, so they seem to think he's

855
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:11.519
<v Speaker 1>nothing more than an innocent bystander. But I find this

856
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>whole dynamic interesting because later on we're going to talk

857
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.239
<v Speaker 1>about Larry's half sister, who becomes a key figure in

858
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.480
<v Speaker 1>this case, and it turns out that it doesn't seem

859
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.639
<v Speaker 1>like she had a particularly great relationship with Larry's so

860
00:42:24.679 --> 00:42:28.360
<v Speaker 1>it makes me wonder what was Michael's relationship like. That

861
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:30.280
<v Speaker 1>brings an end to Part one of our series about

862
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 1>the disappearance of Tommy Gibson. Join us again next week

863
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:35.639
<v Speaker 1>for part two.

864
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:37.360
<v Speaker 3>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

865
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 3>about the Trailment Cold Patreon.

866
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

867
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:45.760
<v Speaker 1>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

868
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.199
<v Speaker 1>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

869
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.079
<v Speaker 1>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

870
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:54.719
<v Speaker 1>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

871
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.800
<v Speaker 1>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

872
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.000
<v Speaker 1>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

873
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.840
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to

874
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Patreon and if you join our highest tier, Tier three,

875
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.760
<v Speaker 1>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

876
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:15.480
<v Speaker 1>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

877
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:18.719
<v Speaker 1>where you can download an audio file and then boot

878
00:43:18.760 --> 00:43:22.000
<v Speaker 1>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

879
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:25.400
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

880
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.559
<v Speaker 1>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

881
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.000
<v Speaker 1>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

882
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 1>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

883
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:37.679
<v Speaker 1>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

884
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:40.440
<v Speaker 1>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

885
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:43.480
<v Speaker 1>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

886
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Tier three.

887
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:45.960
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

888
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:48.960
<v Speaker 3>about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

889
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.880
<v Speaker 3>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

890
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:54.719
<v Speaker 3>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

891
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:56.960
<v Speaker 3>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

892
00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:59.960
<v Speaker 3>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

893
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:02.639
<v Speaker 3>so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link

894
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:03.760
<v Speaker 3>them in the show notes.

895
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.159
<v Speaker 1>So I want to thank you all for listening and

896
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:08.639
<v Speaker 1>any chance you have to share us on social media

897
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:11.000
<v Speaker 1>with a friend, or to rate and review is greatly

898
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.800
<v Speaker 1>appreciate it. You can email us at the Pathwentchili at

899
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.679
<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

900
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:19.440
<v Speaker 1>the Pathwink. So until next time, be sure to bundle

901
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.000
<v Speaker 1>up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

902
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy