Speaker 1: What is up, fellas Eco as I am Dann Valley
coming at you with the one, the only, this certified fantabulous,
mister Grant Hughes. We are here to report some breaking news.
We had no idea that there would be consequences for
our actions, and so now we are here to circle
back to the twenty twenty four MBA off season and
go through our grades, talk about where we were wrong,
where we were right, and to regrade the off season.
We do this every year. Grand I think this has
got to be like the third or fourth time we've
gone back and like regraded, or at least, yeah, went
back and regraded the off season. So always a fun exercise.
We're starting off with the Eastern Conference. If you can't
tell from the title, we will as notes quick notes
a C. Everyone gets mad when their team gets a C,
and I kind of understand that, but a C is
just average grade, like relative to what they had at
their disposal, what they were trying to do. They got
to see, like that's totally fine when you get in
the d's and f's, like that's where okay, let's have
some debate. And the other note is is so we
are going to put the transactions that we graded specifically
up on the screen. So you saw this last year,
and we will talk about anything that happened, notably before
opening night thereafter. We do do these later than a
lot of other podcasts, precisely because for us, at least,
it makes regrading a lot easier. It's we don't have
to think about all the stuff that we missed. Do
you have any other thing to add? Or more importantly,
I think everybody missed you. You've been gone for a minute.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2: I missed everybody? I miss you. We haven't talked in
two weeks, which seems like impossible, but you know, it's
it's our off season, cadence, I guess, except not yours,
because you're going to be doing a million look aheads
and I'll be there for some of those. No, I
this is I really like doing this every year because
I don't know. I you know, my memory is so
bad that it's just like I want to remember what
I was thinking a year ago, especially if we're just
way off. Usually those are obvious, but several of these
I think we're really useful for me to go back
and look at, like, Okay, why did I think this
was a good or bad offseason for this team, and
then really like, ideally, we're learning something about our thought
processes and we can take that forward and it's like, well, Okay,
I need to be careful about shooting the moon on
a particular team for doing for drafting this player, or
for swinging this deal or what. I don't know. Just
it gives you, gives you more sort of data points
to look back at and kind of just sort of
like fine tune the way you look at offseason grades.
Speaker 1: I guess I went back and listened to some of
what we said last year too, and some of the
things that I got hung up on for a few
of the teams in the East was just really funny.
We're it's like looking back, it's like, why were you
sputting hairs over that? We did have grant the release
of the Christmas Day schedule as we're recording this, so
I feel like we can react to that really quickly.
There are eight Western Conference teams playing on Christmas? What
do you make of that?
Speaker 2: So that means there are two Eastern Conference teams? Is
there one game? It feels like too many.
Speaker 1: No, they have to be split. I'm gonna look at
the actual schedule now. But that's the chatter is that
everyone's like, so open, Oh that's opening night, no Christmas Day,
Cleveland versus New York. So the first game and then
the Eastern Conference is time.
Speaker 2: Those are the ones, Like I was gonna say, who
do you need to see? Of the Eastern Conference teams?
Those are? Those are the two?
Speaker 1: Maybe those are the two? So do you want to
would you care to hazard a guess at of the
West teams that are also playing on Christmas? We'll get
to the Raids.
Speaker 2: Probably gonna say the Lakers are probably involved. Uh, as
are the Clippers, as are the Warriors, as are.
Speaker 1: The Clippers are not involved? What thunder are involved?
Speaker 2: Thundersweepers, They're gonna go, you got it?
Speaker 1: Smack damn thunder Spurs is the second game, Lakers Rockets
is the third one. The Warriors play the Mavericks in
the fourth one. You have not named either of the
remaining You gotta.
Speaker 2: Have the Wolves in there, don't you?
Speaker 1: You do have the Wolves? Who are they playing?
Speaker 2: Why can't I remember? Can I look at a list
of Western Conference teams?
Speaker 1: Who you're forgetting an obvious one?
Speaker 2: I already said the Thunder. M Oh, obviously the Jazz, right,
we're gonna get the Jazz on there.
Speaker 1: Trade showcase.
Speaker 2: Who's the obvious team I'm missing? Did I?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well that's pretty obvious.
Speaker 1: Professional horse owner.
Speaker 2: The best player in the world, sure who wants.
Speaker 1: And then Opening Night is all West teams. It's the
four West.
Speaker 2: That's going to relegate the East. Is that what we're
training towards? Like the NBA is very interested in Europe.
Are some of the relegation trends from Premier League soccer
gonna transfer over? And the East just like just doesn't
get to play the West end.
Speaker 1: That's really bad news for the rhyin starf if that happens.
Rockets Thunder is the first opening Night game and then
Warriors Lakers is the second Opening night game, so that
no East teams there.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna watch those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't really need to see the Lakers. They
have Luca and Lebron's like that they were gonna be
penciled in there. So No, I don't think any clear shocks,
although I would have expected the East to be like
a little bit like have an East team play on
Opening Night would have been.
Speaker 2: But who would it. Who would who should it be?
I mean, if you've got the Calves in the in
the Knicks.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm saying opening Night, I thought they.
Speaker 2: Would be like East team, don't you. I'm gonna I'm
gonna use this year. Here's a bit. I'm gonna work
on this bit all years where I just dismissed the
East no matter what, all the time. Nobody's ever made
that bit up in the last twenty five years of
NBA analysis, Have they I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think they have, not at all. I mean,
you did bring up an issue like, who's the third
most compelling team in the Eastern Conference aside from the
Knicks and Calves you picked from.
Speaker 2: The Detroit, Orlando Atlanta. Uh, I don't know. It's not great,
it's like that.
Speaker 1: Uh hell yeah, I love these Look at that accountability. Yeah,
this is this is what accountability looks like. Telling room,
probably get started, we shol probably get started with that.
We're gonna go not alphabetically, but by division. So we're
gonna begin with the Atlanta Hawks anyway it would be.
Speaker 2: But also alphabetically.
Speaker 1: Are you able to take us through the list of
transactions that we rated, sir?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'll may or may not read some of them,
but the big ones zacharysiche At number one, Garrison Matthews
got his team option, picked up the big trade, which
feels like much longer than a year ago. But Atlanta
sent de Jonte Murray to New Orleans. Four Dyson Daniels,
Larry Nance Junior, e J. Liddell, Cody Zeller. That was
a sign and trade for three years and eleven million
partial guarantees got a twenty twenty five first and the
less favorable of Milwaukee or New Orleans twenty twenty seven
first that has top four protection. Vit Crazy came back
four years, ten million. We love Viet Crazy around here.
E J. Liddell was rerouted to Phoenix for David Roddy, Dominic, Barlow,
Lundy and Keaton Wallace got two way deals. So this
is mainly the Murray trade. The Resa che Pick, I
don't know what would have rated. Maybe the crazy signing.
I don't know, knowing us would have gotten some cover there.
Speaker 1: We did, if you cared to know. We did, in
fact spend at least a full minute on the Vig
Crazie signing.
Speaker 2: And we've done it again. And so yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I will say we don't like this offseason
as much the last offseason for the Hawks as much
as we like this one. That feels fair to say.
Speaker 1: And the only thing we missed, so I guess I'll
tack on that was the Jalen Johnson extension came down
after the fact, so that would be a part of
this regrade. The five years, one hundred and fifty million.
They that offseason, we weren't thrilled with the Dejonte Murray return.
We thought it was kind of like a net even
like or the Hawks any better off and then in hindsight,
with the injury, you can't really predict that stuff. And
it's not like Atlanta had this great season where they
set the world on fire. But when you look at
how they're positioned with their assets now contrasted against how
Dyson Daniels played for them, I will say that trade
looks way better. The value of that Milwaukee slash New
Orleans first just absolutely through the roof and then to
go out. And so their off season was they were
one of the offseasons that, in hindsight I think look
a lot better. Though for sure, I think this offseason
was better, to be clear, but I think they're one
of the teams that like had a better off.
Speaker 2: Season in hindsight, agree, so do Let's just to get
this right. So I forgot that they got the twenty
the least favorable of the Bucks or Pelicans twenty twenty
seven first, and then they also got the same thing
in twenty twenty six right for the in the in
the Draft night deal. So they the Hawks have basically
shorted twenty six and twenty seven for the Bucks good
bet and Pelicans potentially great bet. Like that's I mean combined,
we should have they maybe shouldn't have been allowed to
trade with with the Pelicans. Again, do have we considered that?
Speaker 1: Have they like kind of do you think that they've
kind of full It's still it's not the same because
they still can't tank, but like they've kind of fully
offset not having their own first round picks in twenty
six and twenty seven.
Speaker 2: Now, I mean right, because it's not just like, well,
if this one other team falls apart, no, you got
You've doubled your cracks at it. So it's still like
we always talk about the best thing you can have
for your own picks, but failing that this is a
pretty good return. So do you want to talk about Well,
I think we've we've kind of.
Speaker 1: I was the only thing I was gonna say is
do you have any We both were kind of just
Zach reiche is a C grade because he wasn't the
obvious pick, but like we needed to see more. How
do you feel about that pick having gone through his
rookie season? Now?
Speaker 2: I don't think my opinions that different. I think, I mean,
are there guys that you might rather have? Maybe, but
there's not.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like there's someone from last year's draft
class that's like, oh my god, if they should if
they had just taken this guy, it would have been
an A. I don't know who's that guy.
Speaker 1: I don't know who. I mean, like it wouldn't I know,
Steph Castle won Rookie of the Year, but no, that
wouldn't have been an automatic A right now for me.
I think I would probably even if I was doing
a redraft right now. I mean, Steph Castle was the
better player last year, but I think just fits with
more teams.
Speaker 2: So I don't at least a conversation.
Speaker 1: It's a conversation. It didn't hurt their grade, that's for sure.
And you could say, like with this team, knowing they
were able to go out and get Christops, like maybe
not taking Sar was the smart decision for them then
so And I think the only other thing we would
need to touch on is the Jalen Johnson contract thoughts.
Knowing that he's not proven to be the most available
player since he's under their rotation a few years ago.
Speaker 2: It moves the grade up for me because it's just
a flat thirty million a year, right it was at
five for one fifty and it just stays flat. I mean,
if he's healthy, that is a below market deal. He
just wasn't last year. And you know, I think it's
still it's still that still moves my grade up or
at least as a contributing factor into me upping their grade.
But I think it's fair to say that, like it's
not a definite home run yet just because we don't
know if Johnson's gonna stay healthy. Does that seem reasonable?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's you feel better about the peak
of Jalen Johnson on this contract, but you're still he
hasn't done anything to sort of dismiss the the health concerns.
So with that, we went from our previous you want
to take them through. So those who pop upon screen
for everybody watching. But I gave them a C minus
and you gave them a C last year, what are
we giving them now?
Speaker 2: Grant, So you've bumped up to an A minus, a
bigger jump because you started lower. I went to a
B plus. So we're not very far apart at all.
I just didn't want to quite get into the A
range just because, like, I don't know, I feel like
their off season this summer was better, and so I
don't want to jump to an A for last year
because where do I go for this one?
Speaker 1: And it's also they did. They were another team where
it's like, oh, we're not gonna pay, so we're not
gonna use the full breadth of our resources because we
don't want to pay the tax. But yeah, in hindsight,
it's when Jalen Johnson goes down and you're trying to
play receche and you have Daniels coming in, Like was
that the right decision? So that's what's tough is because
we like those teams and we'll talk a lot about
this with the Orlando Magic, where It's like you thought
that they just didn't want to spend at that point.
So but Dyson Daniels, neither of us were as high.
Like we didn't expect anything we saw from it. And
I know he was doing a lot of the things
he did in New Orleans, but he got more playing
time and like he did showcase some of the stuff
that he's able to do on the offensive end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no great offseason for the Hawks in hindsight.
Speaker 1: Our next team up is the Charlotte Hornets. They I'll
take I'll take us through them. They hired Charles Lee
as head coach, drafted t Jon Salon at number six,
drafted kJ Simpson at number forty two. They acquired Grant's
favorite trade of the off season, Josh Green Reggie Jackson,
who they ended up waving. They got a bunch of
second round picks as part of that deal. They re
signed Miles Bridges for three years and seventy five million
salary declines year over year. They acquired Devonte Graham. He
had two point eight five million guaranteed and New Orleans
is twenty five second to get that done from the Spurs,
and they signed Todge Gibson to a one year minimum
because TODJ. Gibson is everything to anyone. They signed Seth
Curry to a minimum deal as well. How do you
feel about their offseason in hindsight.
Speaker 2: So as I looked back on this, I mean, there's
just kind of a lot of nothing moves. But we've
lauded the Horn and it's kind of big picture thinking
and hiring Charles Lee. I think we liked that. The
Salon pick feels like a miss just because he was
so bad, but he's also one of the youngest players
in the class. I don't think we can. I mean,
this will come up a lot. I think in so
far as we talk about regrading draft picks, especially the
high lottery guys who are all young. Oh at the bottom,
there musa diabate to a two way he turned out
to him. Yeah, I I forgot. I'm looking now at
the sheet. So we both kind of liked or mostly
liked uh their offseason. I think probably the Salon rough
rookie year, and like the Josh Green ear mouse. Everybody
Josh Green didn't look like he was going to do
He's maybe not gonna matter. So other than that, like,
I don't know, there's not a lot of needle moving
happening here.
Speaker 1: In hindsight, No, the Salon pick, I just think maybe
here he turns out to be a fine NBA player
one day, and you noted the youth. But like, I
don't know, you look at something like Donovan Klingen on
this team, Zach Edy on this team, Modus buzzellis on
this team. I just there's khalil Ware on this team.
There's like too many other guys that I'm more intrigued
by than Salon. So I dinged them pretty heavily when
we were going through the re And you know, I
didn't like the Josh Green trade to begin with. We
were both kind of net neutral on the Miles Bridges deal.
I'm just sort of lower on him as an impact player.
Now it's still not a detrimental contract, But I don't know,
like Miles Bridges is not a very efficient score Like
Tom Ziller kind of pointed out for Good Morning, Let's
Basketball that he Okay, he'll get you twenty points per game,
but it's not going to be super efficient. Is it
going to generate his shot at like a super high level.
He can be moved around on defense, but he's not
what you would call an impact defender. I do appreciate
their overall direction. But when I went back when I
was looking at the list of transactions and then went
back and looked at the grade that I gave them,
I was surprised that I gave them such a high
grade last offseason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder, what do you think the driving factor
was that just they didn't do any like, uh, let's
try to win forty one games, like short term chasing stuff.
We were pretty like that was a pretty fresh approach
for Charlotte to not do that. So I can imagine
that we were big on that. I didn't listen back,
but that's gotta be a huge factor because let's you
want to jump to the grades here just so we
can get the.
Speaker 1: Visual that was. That was kind of the logic too,
which is like, oh, like, they didn't do anything stupid,
and so it's over they being graded on a weird curve.
But if the Salon pick, if like, maybe he still
pans out, But what's the percentage chance that we look
back and say, oh, it was a good decision to
take him at number six.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems it seems very low. I mean, he's
he is someone that seems so far away. It's not
to say he can't get to whatever he's gonna get to,
but like we might not know what he's gonna be
and the hornets will be like trying to negotiate his
rookie extension, like it might take that long to where like, okay,
so maybe he'll be good for somebody else because like,
I don't know, I don't I never really understood the
theory of Salon, like what what was? What was what
did they see in him versus some of the more
known commodities. But whatever they reached, you had a B
plus for them last this time last year, I had
a B minus similar range. You dropped them down to
a D. I went D plus. It's just like what
we talked about, there's the Salon pick feels like a
miss with all the caveats we should attach to that,
and there's just nothing else here that that I don't know.
You can't point to anything they did last summer talking
about Charlotte and say, boy, that really set them up
to do X, Y or Z, like it didn't. You know,
we like, we like what they're doing in general. I
want to reemphasize that, but it's just last offseason didn't
really accomplish much.
Speaker 1: Our next team in the Southeast Division is the Miami Heat.
Do you want to take us through them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So they drafted the aforementioned Cluil, where at number
fifteen look looking like a pretty solid pick at that spot.
Josh Richardson picked up his three point one million option.
Kevin Love signed for two years an eight million. Thomas
Bryant got a year at the minimum, did not finish
the season on the team. Traded number forty three pick
to Atlanta for number forty four, which is pel Larson
signed him for three years and five point four million.
The first two seasons are guaranteed on that deal. Alec
Burks got a one year deal for the minimum. Heywood
high Smith, who lasted a while into free agency. If
I recall correctly, two years eleven million. That's a hell
of a deal. Signed Bam out of BIO to three years,
one hundred and sixty five million. That keeps him on
the books through twenty eight twenty nine, which is a
player option. Signed Josh Christopher and Keishaw Johnson to two
way contracts. So Dan, the highlights here are pretty clearly ware.
I cannot have professed to know very much about Larson
at the time we did the grades, but I do
kind of like him as a rotation guy going forward.
The Highsmith deal was really good out of bio. That's
just the going rate for someone like him, even with
his down year. I'm like, I don't feel like that's
a bad contract. I mean, do you like how badly
would Bam have had to played this past year for
that to be a questionable deal?
Speaker 1: Well, do you know what we dinged them before in
the grades last year was why didn't they wait an
extra summer so they could get him on the books
for longer? Because this was like out of bio friendly.
And now I come away from this thinking I don't
love that. I don't think it was a bad move,
but I don't love the contract as much. Like it's
all the other stuff that's doing the lifting for me
is I've watched a lot of Kohli a ware lately,
from Summer League and from his rookie season. I can't
confess there's a part of me that still doesn't understand
the intrigue with him. I think that there's a real
chance that he just never becomes a really good shooter
and then you kind of look at it. It's like, oh,
he might have some highlights on defense, but is he
gonna be this high level impact defender. But I also
just when the jumpers go in, or you look at
his physical tools that he has with the ball in
his hands, or when he's by the basket, to get
him a number fifteen, it's a big deal. I love
Pela Larson. I think that that is when you look
at yes, they have Norman Powell, Tyler Hero, they just
drafted Yakacionas. I think that they should I'm not saying
they should start Pela Larson, but like that dude needs
to play. They need to put the ball in his
hands because he will make things happen in pressure of
the foul drawing. To get him at number forty three,
you mentioned the high Smith deal. He's out eight to
ten weeks. Just we've found out today he had a
knee surgery. I think it was or just a surgery.
I like how to stop myself from bumping them up
into like an A minus range because they had such
a blas season with when you factor in the Jimmy
Butler stuff, but when you look at all these other
moves in hunt they didn't make a bad move last offseason.
Speaker 2: No, not really. I don't know what you would What
would you say the worst move was, like I paying Kevin, like.
Speaker 1: Trading Jimmy Butler? Was that the worst move, like letting
that fee out it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a maybe that's a good opportunity to
talk about. That's one of the challenges here is like
we do try to consider the roads not taken and
like what might have been possible for these teams as
we're grading them. But like the Jimmy So do you
think I guess that the Jimmy Butler trade? Like, are
you actually going to ding them because they didn't trade
Jimmy Butler before the season or didn't resolve that situation sooner?
Like I I could understand if you were going to
do that, but I don't know if I could get there.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I mean, and we both gave them. We
can get to the grades that we gave them for everything.
We didn't miss any like huge transactions. They picked up
some team options afterwards for Yovich and Hawkes. We both
gave them a BEE and we're bumping them up to
I gave him a B plus. But I'm a I'm
a big Larson guy spoiler alert, and you gave them
a bee? Or could you? Could I actually ask you
because I think that you're a little higher, Like can
you explain to me what peak khalil Ware would look like? Like
what is the best case outcome for khalil Ware?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't know. The shot is really kind of
the shot in just like the defensive awareness I think
are the two things that you would really need to
see and like that, I mean, the peak version of
him if the shot, if the three point shot goes
and it becomes like a quality like you can anchor
a good defense as a center, especially alongside Autobio, who's
whose shot has always kind of limited him. Who's who
is that? Are we talking about? Like a Miles Turner
type with like more vertical athletics, Like yeah, you're asking
what the peak version of him is. It's it's very intriguing.
I I don't know what the what's what's his like
median outcome? You know, three years down the road, it's
hard to say, like there there's been no shortage of
of really athletic big guys that we've said, well, he's
if he could just get the three pointer to fall
like then he's really something and it doesn't happen like
I don't know, is he it's it's it's it's too
early to say I'm still intrigued by him, but I'm
not gonna like try to talk you off of yours.
What sounds like a little bit of skepticism, it.
Speaker 1: Sounds does it feel weird to bump up the great
you stayed flat? Which I think is fair? Is it
weird that I bumped up a grade of a team
that wasn't trying like they were clearly trying to still
remain competitive. Now they ended up winning thirty seven games
last year, And you can't sit there and say like
they couldn't see the Jimmy Butler situation coming. No, everybody
saw the Jimmy Butler situation coming right right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's fair. I just I didn't
see enough that was out Like I think we probably
did this after Summer League and where had some like
intriguing flashes then, And I think it's fair to say
that he's basically had a rookie year full of intriguing
flashes and like maybe not a lot of actual substantive production.
So I just didn't really feel like I needed to
move it too much. But I can understand why you
why you went up the website. Doesn't optics pretty good?
Speaker 1: I just feel like the optics look so weird of it,
Like Miami won thirty seven games and it was part
like a byproduct of their offseason. But I don't know
what else they were supposed to do within reason, aside
from do you think that moving Butler over the summer
because there's theoretically more time left on his deal and
he's not hasn't been suspended by the team yet when
we were doing this, could he have gotten you, like
i'll say, materially more value.
Speaker 2: At that time, don't you think, I mean like you
would have You would have gotten more for him had
you traded him like ed you kept all this stuff quiet,
if that's possible with Butler and pat Riley and then
and then moved him, you know, before it like dragged
into the season with suspension and stuff. I'm pretty confident
that you would have gotten a lot more than they
ultimately got.
Speaker 1: We're wrapping up the Southeast. Oh no, we have two
more teams left. I apologize to the Washington Wizards. Apparently
we are onto the Orlando Magic. They drafted Tristan da
Silva at number eighteen. They drafted Antonio Reeves at number
forty seven, containious called the Pope. Was that the first
move like big move out of the CAPON free agency
right for anyone three years sixty six million with a
player option in year three. Gogo Bitadze three years twenty
five million on a declining scale, Gary Harris two years
fifteen million on a team option that was since declined.
Jonathan Isaac renegotiate and extend five years eighty four million
average annual value of sixteen point eight salary declines. Mo
Wagner two years twenty two million flat rate, had a
team option they declined. It brought him back, he had
that ACL injury. Franz Wagner signed his extension before this.
It ended up being so it was projected for five
years without the all NBA language of twenty four point two.
I think it ends up being like five years two
hundred and twenty two point four whatever. It's a little
bit less now, but he got the five years, no options.
They brought in Corey Joseph two years at the minimum
that had a team option. He's he's no longer there,
at least as of now. So, Grant, how do you
feel about the thing we missed? I'm sorry this is
a team. We missed one thing because we graded before
it happened. Two things Jalen Suggs five years, one hundred
and fifty million dollar extension and then that frickin' Wendell
Carter junior extension, which I get that he's coming off
a bad year, but just objectively speaking, having him at
what was his extension for is four years and fifth?
What is it for? Whatever is extension? So yeah, like
that's just four years fifty eight point seven million or
three years fifty eight point seven Excuse me? How do
you feel about their offseason? In hindsight?
Speaker 2: What a weird time capsule? This one is to go
back because so as I'm as we're going down the
transactions in front of us here, I kind of like
almost all of them, right, Like I spent the year
trying to talk myself into Da Silva. The wall just
didn't go in enough. But I like that player type.
I always kind of have the bigger wing forward that
likes that seems like he can pass and like that
kind of thing didn't really ultimately have a real productive year.
The KCP thing, we were like, great, love it, that's awesome.
They went and got a guy who could make threes.
I mean, I even like the Harris deal, the Isaac deal,
but Toad's the deal. Those are all totally fine, throw
in throw in Carter. As well. As I look back,
I did not grade this offseason highly. I gave it
a below average mark, and I gotta believe it's because
I didn't like the Wagner deal. I wasn't sure he
was good enough. I think I'm just I'm just assuming
this is what I said, because I can't.
Speaker 1: Remember that was exactly what we talked about.
Speaker 2: So okay, didn't love that. And then also I could
imagine the kind of the criticism that we really landed
on as the year progressed, was like KCP was just
clearly not enough. CASEP had a terrible year, but like
it turned out like that wasn't actually the solve, even
though injuries really were what derailed the season for them.
So I think, I don't know. I was surprised as
I graded it as low as I did, because in isolation,
I think a lot of these transactions are like, yeah,
that's that seems pretty good, right, Like you were higher
on them, so maybe maybe for comparison's sake, what were
what did you love the most if you can remember,
and what like, I don't know what did you not like?
Speaker 1: I thought KCP was gonna be better. I liked Tristan
da Silva. I thought also that the I was probably
a little bit higher on Franz Wagner at the moment
than you were. And I saw, oh, no options, Like, oh,
that's pretty cool, right, That's like a deal where I'm wondering, Oh,
should they have negotiated harder on that? Like should they
have done Like we've seen teams like the Rockets always
seem to negotiate with their restricted free agents. When you
look at Alprinsching or soon to be restricted free agents Alprinsching,
gun Jabari Smith, that's like kind of a sticking point
for me. I think the Jael and Suggs, I know
he got injured, that extension has and I thought that
was fine. I think the Wendell Carter junior extension is
mostly good. The thing that we both had trouble wrapping
our heads around is this is a team that had
the resources to do a lot more. And now they've
gone and they've had this summer that I think you
and I would have campaign for them, yeah, to have
last year, and so we digged them for that. And
it's what also is tough about this is because Okay,
we know that they got injured and then that they
went ahead and had this summer cantabous Coldbell Pope. They
gave up a lot for Desmond Bay, but it was
like Kntabo's cold Pope was in that deal, so it's
not like they're still stuck with him either. I still
came away thinking, yes, I like this offseason overall for them,
but that doesn't change that I think they were good
enough in a vacuum in that moment to have more
aggressively addressed the needs that we all knew they needed
to address, and they just didn't.
Speaker 2: Yep, I think, and so we both dropped their grade.
And I think that's the main reason is that it's
hard to say this because of the injuries, but they
kind of burned a season, you know, they kind of
wasted a season when their two best players were still
pretty cheap. Really, their three best players were pretty cheap
because none of those extensions had kicked in.
Speaker 1: And Ys Jones was available last summer too, is sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think I I think like we can
agree that the Magic's future is is we're higher on
the Magic future today than we were a year ago.
But their grade drops because they sort of like just
took a year for no reason to realize like the
swing needs to happen. Like maybe Desmond Bane wasn't available
last summer, but like somebody would have been if you're
putting five first round assets on the table, like that's
that that's gonna shake loose some like real upgrades if
that's what you're after. As I'm talking about it now,
I can remember, I bet I made the case that
Orlando believes in its organic growth process and so that's
why it's kind of defensible for them not to swing
super big. But they just burned a year finding out that,
like you actually do need to just go get talent.
Speaker 1: And it's like you said at the top, like Tristian
da Silva having a step in and be a starter
for a hot minute that has value. But it's also
some of the things we talked about too, where oh,
if they're not gonna go get what we consider a
capslock shooter. It's that they really must be prepared to
believe in or uncourt Jet Howard. No, they weren't right,
and we also one of the things he says, like,
oh they will do this isn't part of the grade,
but they'll do something by the trade deadline. Now, injuries
maybe force their hand, but I'm kind of the mind
that they probably wouldn't have done anything. So really good team.
I don't know how to square up, but they had
their off season just in hindsight, was not like the
Franz Wagner extension. I think if you think the Franz
Wagner extension looks better than it did last offseason, I
would just be curious to know what the case is
it because that he was. I mean I had him
fourth on my MVP V out.
Speaker 2: Like, if you think the Franz Wagner extension is better
now than you did a year ago, then you stopped
watching basketball in like mid November or like maybe late November,
and you just didn't. You only saw that when he
was a top five MVP guy and then you did
not see the rest of the year.
Speaker 1: Are we ready to wrap up the Southeast Division for real? Now?
With the Wizards.
Speaker 2: Sir, yes, sir, Let's see they hired Brian Keith as
a full time head coach. He had had the interim
tag prior to that. I think Alex Aar was their
pick at number two. Kind of an interesting one here.
Traded Denny Avdiya for Malcolm Brogden, the pick that became
Bub Carrington, or maybe he'd already become the pick had
already become Bub Carrington either way, and a twenty twenty
nine first the second most favorable of Portland, Boston and
Milwaukee sent Dylan Jones, who was number twenty six, and
Melvin Agensah's number fifty one for Kishon George like that.
Rashaun Holmes re signed for two years and twenty five
point nine million. That's after he declined a twelve point
nine million dollar player option. He is now playing in
where he signed overseas, can't remember where, but only two
hundred fifty k of that second year was guaranteed. That's
why he's not in the NBA right now. Got Jonas
Valentiunas for three years and thirty million. That happened to
be a sign and trade. Tristan Vukcevic got a two way,
Sadik Bay, who was injured at the time, three years
nineteen million had a million unlikely incentives. Interesting tidbit I
learned today. You know, there's no incentives in any of
the contracts signed this this offseason.
Speaker 1: They all count against the apron now, so there's no
one section to about those like, yeah, the stupid ones.
What was the one that was used as the example?
If yeah, d why.
Speaker 2: Lastly Anthony Gill two years four point eight million that
was fully guaranteed. So go ahead.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Sadik Bay never playing a game
for the Wizards just by signing with them last summer.
Speaker 2: But they knew that though, right, I mean he was
just I don't know, that's a big.
Speaker 1: And also they traded they traded Dylan Jones just to
end up getting Dylan Jones like this summer from the Thunder.
It's really funny.
Speaker 2: I mean, the big ones here are Sar and the
Ovvia trade. Other than that, I mean, I guess valentiunis.
But even at the time when that happened, we were
just like, all right, I guess just to have like
a big adult next to Sar was the thinking, which fine,
but he didn't finish the year, though, well, they.
Speaker 1: Beat out the Remember Lebron took Less so they could
sign Valentiunis. Then he signed with the Wizards. That's a
big deal.
Speaker 2: Grand I can't wait to do the West Grade. So
we can really just pump up the Lakers for getting
Lebron to take Less.
Speaker 1: What a win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm looking and now I gotta scroll down
and see what we I can't remember what we thought
about them, all right, when you're mostly favorite, didn't here.
Speaker 1: Right and we didn't miss anything big. I think I
think you hit on the two points the sar pick.
I think I'm just where I'm at this season. Like, yeah,
there's efficiency concerns, canna get stronger, you better, finishing through contact,
passing was way better than I expected. Had some stretches
where there was a lot of defensive playmaking, hitting threes.
I'm fine with that. I think you could make the
case that had they had the number one pick, they
could have taken it should have taken him.
Speaker 2: Certainly higher ceiling than right, like, I mean, just for sure,
lower floor, but high.
Speaker 1: Higher higher ceiling than Steph Castle right now, is that
recreat ceiling?
Speaker 2: Maybe? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Well, I guess if you're so you're saying if Steph Castle,
like the jumper comes along and the yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2: I mean I don't know, yeah, No, I totally defensible pick.
I think that's like we don't love Sar. It's just
like in this draft, that's no no issue. That's fine.
Take that guy, if if if that's what you like.
Speaker 1: I did pump up the Rashaun Holmes mode of operation
a little too much. In hindsight, they ended up doing
nothing with like him having I was like, Oh, they're
like they're gonna do some they didn't need to, so
they did a bunch of other good stuff. I think
the one that I struggled with, and I struggled with
this in real time. My words verbatim was I hate
this deal for both teams, or I don't understand it
for both teams.
Speaker 2: The one you're talking the OVVIO one.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I now feel worse about it for the Wizards.
I like bub Carrington that first round pick has some upside,
but when you look at I think the biggest justification
was obvious value will never be as high as it is.
Right then that clearly wasn't true. Yeah, and then oh
he's on an extension. He will never he's on a deal,
he will never extend off. So the Wizards won't be
ready to be competitive. That still might ring true, except
they're gonna have like two trillion dollars in cap space
right next summer. I think I'd rather eat into like
fifteen or sixteen million of that still have ovdia And
then if you're trying to be good, I don't know.
For me right now, it would come down to, well,
what are they gonna do with that twenty nine first
round pick, like if they trade it or Bob Carrington
gonna have kind of a second like does he get
to the rim more, draw some fouls or something. I
I'm not saying it's not the It's by far not
the worst trade I've ever seen, but I am a
little bit lower on the Avia trade for the Wizards
than I was last summer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a tricky one because it's not like
Avidya was twenty nine, you know, like that. Then then
it's like, sure with the timeline thing, it doesn't make
sense get Carrington in there. I it's just Ovidiya was again.
You know, we could talk. We'll talk more when we
get to the Portland offseason. I'm sure, but like he
was really good, like for the last half or third
of the season and fine all year, but like looked
like just I don't I don't want to get like
too hyperbolic. Maybe not an All star, but like if
he played at that level for a whole season, we
would talk about him, we would discuss him potentially at
that level.
Speaker 1: Like we did Norman Powell kind of yeah, leading into the.
Speaker 2: Break class and and with you know, Carrington just isn't
isn't as good as Avidia and like to get for carrying.
If Carrington plays at a level like equal to what
Obdia did the second half of last season, at any point,
Carrington's like a very good starter. And so that that's
kind of he hasn't been anything close to that yet
and so until that happens, it's gonna and that twenty
nine pick is so distant that like who knows, you
will have to say that the Wizards lost that trade.
I think it's not like a it's not catastrophic because whatever,
you got a promising rookie point guard out of it.
But like Abdia just became way better I think than
Washington banked.
Speaker 1: On Gee, this is interesting and it'll change year over year.
But that pick they got, which is the second most
favorable from Portland, Boston or Milwaukee in twenty twenty nine,
does that pick look better this year? Just was everything
going on in Boston?
Speaker 2: Well sure, yeah, I mean definitely just the Boston Because
of Boston alone, Boston's future seemed like what could possibly
go wrong with this team over the next half decade?
Last year to like everybody's gone now, So so yeah,
that gives it more upside. I mean, Portland we think
is kind of a riser, so that doesn't help Milwaukee. Again, Milwaukee,
we probably had similar feelings about the downside for them.
So yeah, I don't know, if you had to guess
that pick is probably it's probably not in the lottery,
but maybe and it does. I just it's not gonna
have like top ten upside. I wouldn't imagine.
Speaker 1: No, So I it's still one of those TBD things.
But I'm probably a little bit lower on it. Suffice
it to say, though, we still ended up like grading
their off season pretty highly. I went from a B
plus to a B. You went from a B plus
to a C. So what was that? What did it
for you.
Speaker 2: What was it Ada A little bit. I think that
it was mainly that and then not doing anything with
the Holmes contract. I think it's I think I felt,
in looking back at it, that the B plus was
a little generous at the time, and so I really
maybe over dropped it, but still still give them an
average offseason. I think it maybe maybe a year from now,
the Avda Carrington trade gets you up into, you know,
above average territory.
Speaker 1: It will not shock you to know that they did
turn Jonas Valanciunas into two seconds in a trade exception, though,
because the Wizards have I think might have the Fred
Katz pointed this out, they might have set the NBA
record like over the last decade for the amount of
trade exceptions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which they're They're exceptional.
Speaker 1: We're out of the Southeast Division, We're headed into the
Atlantic Division. To talk about I have to assign value
to someone. Your Boston Celtics grant. They drafted Baylor Shireman
at number thirty. They drafted Anton Watson at number fifty four,
signed to an exhibit ten. Luke Cornett got a one
year minimum, Xavier Tillman got two year minimum, fully guaranteed
name is Kita got three years seven point two million.
Only the first season was fully guaranteed. Derek White signed
a four year, one twenty five point eight million dollar extension.
One hundred and eighteen million was guaranteed the final years
of player option Jason Tatum five years, three hundred and
fourteen point eight It was a five year super max.
The value ended up actually changing player option on that
final season. Sam Hauser got four years and forty five
million fully guaranteed, UH and they signed J. D. Davidson
as well Andrew Peterson to two ways. At the time
of the grades, this was another team where we did
not miss anything substantial. But I don't I think there
are gonna be a lot of people that are just
gonna say, like, oh, like, how are you just not
gonna slam them now? Because Jason Tatum got injured. There
was no This wasn't Jalen Brown getting the super Max.
It wasn't a debate about Jason Tate. Every single team
in the NBA would have given Jason Tatum that contract.
Speaker 2: Right yeah, easy, like no question. So yeah, I mean,
the the big items, like that Derek White deal is
a great deal. He's still on the team, that's how
good it is, because they've traded everything else and the
Tatum deal like I mean, really, so we just to
spoil it, like we both stayed. We started in the
A range and we stayed there. And I think maybe
there's a conversation to be had about like, well, you know,
should shouldn't we care about the results, which is that
the Celtics seem like like fucked is a strong term,
but like they're not on sound footing right now, like
it is very possible that they just can never build
a tender around a healthy Tatum again, which is just
like unthinkable a year ago, but here we are, So
shouldn't their grades be like way down because the Celtics
future is so much murkier than it used to be,
Like I think really the fact that they aren't is
just us saying like they're sort of like it's like
when you in contract law, there's like force masure, which
is like some act of God like intercedes and like
we're not gonna not gonna hold that against you. That's
kind of where I'm at on this. It's like I
don't know, he tore his achilles, Like what do you want?
They might have kept the team together. Who knows if
that hadn't happened.
Speaker 1: I stuck with an A just because I think the
Sam Hauser extension probably looks better. I think so the
Derek White deal, Yeah, they'll go through his age thirty
four season. But I think he's weirdly divisive when he
comes to well, I'll say this, he's weirdly divisive when
it comes to talking about like trades or player value.
I think when you're talking about his encore value, some
people neglect to mention that. Okay, like, no, he's in
the perfect ecosystem or was until this point, so he's not. Yes,
he was a borderline all star. I don't know if
Derek White's gonna be as good next season when Jason
Tatum's not there. He did shoot. He shot like with
both Jason Tatum and do or Jalen Brown off the court.
He still hit like forty percent of his three pointers
over the past couple seasons. It's just going to be
different now, like christophs porzingis not being there, You're still
gonna have the floor spacing element at center, and you
will because Chris Bouchet exists, and he's gonna be a
Hall of Famer but I like I. But then you
talk about trades and it's been like, well, maybe if
we give like a protected first round pick, we get
Derek White from the Celtics, And the answer is no,
you would need to give a few first round picks
to get Derek White. So there's I didn't realize how
much of a disconnect there was, And I actually get
it in the sense that it could be hard to
evaluate players in his situation where it's he looks like
a borderline star. But now we're gonna kind of find
out ripping him out of the most ideal possible ecosystem,
what will he look like this year because he's not. Look,
he can do some creative stuff with the ball, but
he's not let's have him run our entire all. It's
the say you kind of feel the same way about
j Brown, although you might feel better about I think
from as a pastor, you feel better about Derek White.
As a frum scratch shot creator. You're probably feeling better
about Jalen Brown.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would. I just think I think the reason
Derek White is so valuable is because you know for
sure that he can be a huge part and a
starter on a really good team, like you just we
know that like his game. I would rather have that
guy where it's like I'm not sure what he does
on an average team and is he even useful on
a bad team. I'd rather have the guy that, Like
I have questions about how he perform in lower stakes
and where and whereas I know I've seen like and
his game just obviously makes sense in like the highest
leverage situations, like the biggest games against any opponent, Like
you don't like play Derek White off the floor, like really,
but like so I I don't understand that. I get
I guess, like, yeah, if you're the Chicago Bulls, like
Derek White ain't for you, Like doesn't He's not gonna
that's not for him. But like the flip side of
Derek White is like the good stat's bad team guy,
Like I don't want that guy, Like I I don't
want the guy that he's getting you twenty wherever he is.
I don't care who cares? Who wants that guy? That's
Cam Thomas, Like nobody's clearly nobody's interested. Like so give me,
give me Derek White at that number and plenty more,
and I'm and I'm fine with it. So you you you,
I don't know if you said this already started at
an a stage there, I went from A to a
minus just because I don't know, I felt like I
had to acknowledge how shitty everything became in Boston.
Speaker 1: Would you Jason Tatum gets that injury and but he's
super Max eligible right now? Would they still give it
to him?
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that and you probably probably probably, I think,
but that's always the you hear that all the time
about like, oh if Jannis Tore's achilles tomorrow and he
was a free agent, he'd get the Max or like
who you know, you insert Superstar X would have been
an interesting test case. But about I think, so, don't
you think so?
Speaker 1: I think they would have. I'm in for his sake.
I'm happy he didn't get injured right before heading into
ADEO in a surch in eligible summer, but I think
they still would have given to him. That made me
feel better about giving them an A because it's just
like that just reinforces how much of a no brainer
that decision was.
Speaker 2: And I know this is like stupid logic and this
is the last thing I'll say, but like he already
has earned that money because he was the best player
on a championship team and like, just think of it
as retroactive.
Speaker 1: Yes, I want back pay for some of our pot Yeah,
I would like to back pay as well. Before you
go through this next team, which is the New York
Oh it's the Brooklyn Nets. Never mind, I'm gonna have
the Knicks. We have two pages and we still didn't
grade their entire office when it happened. Would just like
to point that out.
Speaker 2: So the Nets hired Jordi Fernandez, a head coach who
presided over a ridiculous stretch of overachievement, and traded this
this is a big one. They traded Mchal Bridges and
some other guys. I'll just list him, Cita Baits, stop
wand Vallet in a twenty twenty six second for Boiam
Bogdanovich shake. Milton got a sign. It was part of
a sign and trade. He got three years and nine
point two million, only the first year is guaranteed. Mamadi
Dia Kite and also got New York's twenty twenty five first,
twenty twenty five second, Milwaukee's twenty five first, top four
protected the Knicks twenty seven first. The Knicks twenty eight first,
which is a swap the Knicks twenty nine first and
the nixt twenty thirty one first. That's all the picks.
Then they also traded talking about Brooklyn now a twenty
twenty five first round swap the lesser of Houston or
Oklahoma City for Phoenix's twenty twenty seven first. This is all.
I can't even remember how all this worked, can you do?
You remember how the various first swaps and trades worked out?
Speaker 1: So they got the Son's twenty twenty seven well, swap
lesser of Houston or okse for Phoenix. That was in
twenty twenty five. That's what they traded. They traded the
sons of twenty twenty seven first, then they traded the
twenty twenty nine first, which is the more favorable of
Phoenix or Dallas. But then they also traded the swap
of the less favorable so Houston would have the ability
to get both of those first.
Speaker 2: Technically, right, okay, this is the Houston thing. Got it,
got it? Got it? Okay. And they also traded Diakite,
who they I just mentioned are for Zire Williams and
Dallas' twenty thirty. Second, they signed. Nick Claxton forgot about
this four years, one hundred million. Then Trendon Wafford signed
the qualifying offer. Keon Johnson got two years at the
minimum with only two hundred and fifty k guaranteed. Very
busy offseason, highlighted by the Bridges trade, and that the
trade that I could not articulate. Thank you for handling that,
involving sons and Houston picks. I guess, so, Dan, this
was an off season where Brooklyn was clearly rebuilding, and
so that's kind of a different sort of set of
criteria to evaluate than we've had so far, because we
haven't really had like a like a teardown operation quite yet.
I don't think. I guess Washington's close, But we loved
this offseason. The Bridges trade alone is just like, you know,
whatever you think about the Bane trade from memphisis perspective
this summer, it's kind of like the Bridges as far
as like you just have to say yes with all
that stuff on the table. The Bridge is one is
very much that, And I don't really feel like my
opinion has changed all that much. Like it's not like
they didn't sign I mean, well, let's put it this way,
which of the major transactions I guess, which is really
just hiring Fernandez, trading Bridges, signing Claxton, and then that
the other the Houston OKC thing. Which of those do
you like least? Looking at them today.
Speaker 1: I think you could say getting their own pick back,
because look at what it turned into. They ended up
at number eight, and you would expect them to tank harder.
But it's tough to square that away because you didn't
look at their roster and that, oh, they're they're too
good to tank. It was this team, even when they
had Derek shrud A, Dentis Shruter and Dorian Finney Smith,
very clearly overachieved. And they also pulled the ripcord before
the trade deadline by trading Denis Shruter and Dorian Phinney Smith.
So I think it might prove like Jordi Fernandez is
a pretty because he like, he did a bunch of
stuff on offense, and then they make these trades. They
played some more aggressive defense. But it's fair to look
back and say, Okay, if you were trading for your
own pick, you probably should have tanked like Cooper Flag
was at stake. You probably should have figured out a
way to tank Carter out the gate, but they still
also got the rights to their own pick in twenty
twenty six back, which is super important, especially because it
seems they they kept all five of the first round
picks that they had at least as of now, so
they're gonna have a ton of young guys playing. I'm
still pretty high on this offseason, but it's just it
loses a little luster because at the time it was, oh,
their own first round pick could be that's the number
one pick. Like, if you're Houston, that trade looks a
lot better for you.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: I feel like that the Nets you ended up with
the number ten pick anyway, which you traded for Kevin
Durant and then Brooklyn ended up at number eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that. I mean, so the
takeaway on that is like kind of positive in itself
because what it amounts to is you the coach you hired,
I guess was so good at motivation and stuff and
like tactically that like you couldn't tank as hard as
you wanted to, So like how do you evaluate that?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And I was kind of I was wondering if you
were going to say, the Claxton deal because I don't
know how I feel about that now. It's like twenty
five million a year on average is not a crazy number.
I think he's I don't know, he's definitely a starting
caliber center. I don't know where I would rank him
among starting centers. It's probably not in the top half.
And if it is, it's like right around there. So
that might be a little much for him. I guess
maybe the other way to look at it is, is
he tradeable for positive value on that number? Maybe possibly?
So that that is all to say, we both had
them at an A plus, and I think it was
very much motivated by getting their own picks back, which
was still that's still just yes, great, great process. We
both bump them down just to touch and for me
it was because of Claxton, because they didn't quite like
maximize the value of that pick that they got back.
Speaker 1: Do you think, in hindsight, does them We'll get into
this with the Knicks, but for the Nets, does the
mcalbridge's trade look better the same? It doesn't look worse.
Speaker 2: Uh well, for it to look better you just have
to like the upside of those Knicks picks a little more.
Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that the thing Yeah, that's basically it. Well, no,
you could also point to had they waited and tried
to trade him this summer, they are getting so much less. Well,
then the Nicks gave up to get him.
Speaker 2: Now that's right. I think. I think, I think it
cannot look worse because there's just no scenario where they
get more but at any at any point past or
future for Bridges than they got when they traded him.
So I mean, it can't look worse.
Speaker 1: All right, The New York Knicks are up. This is
gonna take a minute, so everybody just settle in, grab
a couple of coffee, or or we'll listen to us
still when you're getting a couple coffee. They signed Tom
Timodeau to a three year extension. Uh interesting. They drafted
Becomb Dottie at number twenty five. They turned number twenty
four Tyshawn George that's our guy, into four seconds, and
Ariel Huckporty, who was number fifty eight, turned number thirty
eight AJ Mitchell into Kevin Kevin mccaller junior. Still interesting,
Boston's twenty twenty eight second round pick. They traded three seconds,
including their own in twenty thirty for Tyler Kohlik. Who
are they now prepared to bury on the bench again
for a second straight year. But that's neither here nor there.
The saga continues, though, everybody, so hold it right on.
They traded boy On mcdonovich the mcal Bridges trade. They
traded boy and Madonovich shake Milton made Diakite and five
first rounders plus a swap to get mchal Bridges. Ojananobi
five years, two hundred and twelve point five million dollars
with the player option the final year. The best move
of the offseason for them. Jalen Brunson four years, not
one hundred and fifty six million dollars player option on
the final season, picked up Jericho Sims's team option. They
brought back Prestachua for one year, six million bucks. They
signed a campaign one year minimum deal. We did not
talk about though, because it had not happened yet. The
karl Anthy Towns trade Dante DiVincenzo, first round pick and
Julius Randall for carl Anthony Towns. How do you feel
about this off season in hindsight, Grant So.
Speaker 2: I came across. I think it was a seth part
now chat where I think I think this is where
it was that really reorganized my thinking specifically about the Knicks,
because I was ready to go quite a bit Lowers.
I don't love the Cat trade. I think the anonob
deal might be for too much. They gave up a
way too much for Bridges onto obviously the brunts and
extensions like unassailable, like maybe the best transaction of last
summer potentially. But Seth said something to the effect of,
because someone was getting into the idea of like, well,
the Knicks don't have their picks anymore, they're inflexible. They
have all these big contracts, and he said, you know,
like it's not the goal to accumulate cap flexibility and
future firsts and whatever else, like those are the tools
that you use to put together a very good roster
that can win playoff games. And so as you look
at the Knicks, they almost made the finals again like this,
so so like the Knicks have built that team and
a lot of that construction and retention happened last offseason.
So even if we can say the Towns deal, we
don't love it, we don't love the Bridges. Even the
Bridges looks better now that he's signed that cheap extension well,
but we don't.
Speaker 1: Did you, I know you were away. Did you see
the reaction to that at all. There's so many people
that thought it was a terrible deal.
Speaker 2: That's that's they're wrong, that's that's a great deal because
he's going to get way more if he goes to
free agency.
Speaker 1: Year right to agree, but it was I was surprised
that how many people were just like, no, they paid him.
He is slated to be on the first year of
that contract between the fifty first and fifty six highest
played player in the NBA.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are you talking about? What are we talking about? Like,
he's a he's a he's a great two way start. Great,
he's a he's a proven two way starter on a
team that could absolutely make a finals. Like what?
Speaker 1: Okay? I I really think it's because people can't earn
more his value as the player from what the Knicks
gave up to get him.
Speaker 2: Don't you think he would have gotten more on the
open market in a year than money?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think there would have been a team
that would have been four years, two hundred, which was
less at least that's less that A. So you ended
up giving yourself you signed him for got into him
for fifty million dollars less than you would have needed
to over four years, let's say, or lose it or lose.
Speaker 2: Him for nothing, right, I mean you've retained him on
a by definition. I think we both agree that he
could get more if he had waited, and that's why
I fire him. I probably wouldn't have signed that extension.
It's probably pre agreed to. Like you point to BA,
I think that the definition is tradable for positive value,
like if if it's true that other teams would have
paid him more if given the chance, then that means
you can trade him for positive value.
Speaker 1: And I'm also shocked that they got him to sign
the extension and he can still be traded technically this season.
He has like five days before the trade. I would
have bet if if I was him or was going
to sign the extension, was well, I'll come talk to
you August sixth or later, and that right, we can
put pen totally.
Speaker 2: No that I am not willing to listen to any
criticism of that extension. I think that's just wrong. But
so that's all to say. I think we both have
a lot of some reservations about how costly some of
the players on this roster that signed last summer what
it costs to get a couple of the guys on
this roster. But ultimately this team is really good. Maybe
it's not great, uh, but it's about as good as
you can make it and not be a like surefire
title favorite. Uh. And so I did drop their grade
a little bit. But the Brunson deal on its own
is just like you just got like one of the
five or six most productive players in the league for
I don't know, like half of what he probably should
be making, So you can you can't drop the grade
too lower. At least I couldn't.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I did drop it. So I went
from we both gave them bes the first time around,
and I dropped B pluses. I dropped them to a
C plus. You dropped them to a B minus. I
think I think the Michael Bridges extension is fine. I
think they if you were going to need to give
up here here's my qualm. I think the Karnthy Towns,
the two things that I get hung up on. The
value they gave up for karl Anthy Towns I think
was fine. If anything, you could say like maybe they
were the winners of that deal. Like from a talent perspective,
like y way Julius Randall played at points this season.
If Dante DiVincenzo bounces back, it's a question. My two things,
are you traded for a center who might not be
able to play center, and that's a lot of money
to continue to pay that player to be your part
time or like center, part time power forward next to
Mitchell Robinson whoever else you want to throw next to him.
My other bigger hang up is if you were going
to I'm not saying you should have pearl clutched these
first round picks. And I think that what they did
was try to build a team that they could keep
together as long as possible within reason. They've done that
because what player on Bridges level or higher would have
signed the extension that was worth this much. But like,
if you're going to give up that many first round picks,
you can't be at such a half court shot creation
deficit that they were last season. Ye Like when you
look at like the percentile of the half court shot
creation ranks for the Knicks, the fact that they got
Jordan Clarkson is gonna end up being a godsend, which
is problematic so.
Speaker 2: Go ahead, go ahead. No, God was gonna say, like,
I think you could attribute some of that to Thibodeau's offense,
and like maybe under another coach last year, Bridges would
have done more of the playmaking like we saw him
do in Brooklyn and in Phoenix, like you know what
I mean. So, first of all, they extended Thibodeau and
that didn't work out because they fired him. And we've
talked about, you know, is Mike Brown better? Maybe maybe not,
but he's gonna be different. I do think that I'm
I'm willing to hold out judgment on the knicks dearth
of secondary ball handlers and like unwillingness to let other
people handle the ball. I'm willing to like ascribe that
to Thibodeau until unless it happens again this year and
then it's like then I think I'd be more on
board with what you're saying. And in terms of like
roster construction, does that make sense?
Speaker 1: So yeah, And look, so I think C plus is
an above average grade. But I do think that in hindsight,
the Jallen Brunton extension is doing a lot of the
heavy lifting, which because it's you could say, oh, it's
great that mckael Bridges assigned this extension. But the reason
that the Knicks are under the second apron right now,
the reason that the Knicks are able to sign Gershon
Yabucelli right now is because Jalen Brunton is on a
deal like had he been a free agent this year,
Grant his four year max would have been this summer
for four years would have been two hundred and seven
point eight million dollars. His five year max, which if
you'd think the Knicks wouldn't have given it to him,
I have some news for you. They would have would
have been two hundred and sixty nine point one million.
And so you can talk about, well, he has the
player options at the end of this deal, they're gonna
pay him. Then are we sure the way players extend,
he might just take an extend, get another discount. That's
doing a ton of the heavy lifting. And look, I
do think there's a real conversation to be had about
you set yourself up to be in a weird position.
I'm not saying firing Tom Thibodeaux was the wrong move.
I think Mike Brown is going to do some inventive
stuff for their offense, But you extended Tom Thibodau, which
I guess bought you a season of not having people
wonder whether he was gonna be back or not until
after it was over. But like, what does it say
about your internal evaluation about Tom Thibodau that you extended
him and then fired him one year later?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair. It's just that's that's just fair,
because like it's not as if Thibodeau coached in a
way this past season that was surprising, Like it's, yeah,
he just did Thiboeau stuff, like really surprising.
Speaker 1: Towards the end, they're switching against Boston and Shammit's playing
in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Too little, too late though, right, Like it's you know,
if if you didn't love tibbs he, I don't think
those last handful of games are really gonna change your opinion.
Speaker 1: The final thing here, and I think it's a they
had to give it a line with it. Oj Anobe
had a terrific season. That contract for five years just
still makes me uneasy because yep, they cannot. I think
part of what concerns me about the Knicks right now,
but it's about the O g Annobe extension for this regrade. Specifically,
you can't count on the availability you got from him
last year, Like that is not a year and a
year out thing from Ogannobi And like I'm an alarmist,
Like that's a character flaw. But I look at Michel
Bridges and Josh Hart being like the mckel bridges in
Iron Man his entire career, Josh Hart being an Ironman
for the past three seasons. I look at that as saying, fuck,
they're due. Yeah, Like that's I come at it.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you're an iron Man until you're not that
that I mean, that's it. Will it will stop at
some point. They won't play every game for the rest
of their careers. But yeah, no, I mean we're still
positive on the next offseason. Is the long and short
of it. Even though some of it looks a little
less rosy.
Speaker 1: Than the Brunton thing. I still struggled to like, I
just the way people are still kind of like, oh, yeah,
he's just gonna get paid at the end of it.
It's like he gave up so much money, Like he
basically gave up twelve plus million dollars on average a year.
Ye that isn't he signed an extension that like he's
basically the same as mckel bridges is getting right now
versus four that's insane. Who's our next team?
Speaker 2: Grant? Oh boy, oh boy, you said buckle up last time.
All right, We've got the sixers because we got to
do it. So this is so funny, like even the
stuff that's not accounted for here is is gonna get
some conversation. So they draft Jered McCain at number sixteen,
probably Rookie of the year frontrunner until he got hurt.
So we're in, hey, positive territory one for one. Uh
drafted Yeah, should we start well, no, yeah, we will
drafted a den Bona at number forty one. There are
a lot of people like it. Enjoyed the stylings of
a den Bona. Paul George O Boy four years, two
hundred and eleven point six million. Uh, we loved it
at the time. Feel a little different these days. Kelly
Hubray two years, sixteen point four million, terrific deal, no notes.
Andre Drummond two years, ten million, no notes. Tyre's Maxi
five years two oh three. Because he agreed to wait, love.
Speaker 1: It either no option. They made him wait. He didn't
get an option.
Speaker 2: Dan the Hits keep coming. Eric Gordon for the minimum.
I mean he can still play, right. Caleb Martin four
years thirty five million. We love the Martin's unrelated kJ
Martin two years sixteen million. Uh, second year is eight
point two something and that's not guaranteed, right. I don't
know if is he still on a roster right now?
Speaker 1: He's on the Jazz roster.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Kyle Lowry got a year at the minimum.
Love it, veteran experience. Reggie jack In one year minimum?
Why not? Yabasele one year minimum? That one actually did
turn out well, Uh, until it didn't because they didn't
bring them back. Signed David Jones and Jeff Down into
two ways. Holy shit, man, uh we we a plus
this across the board. We loved it. It was it
was phenomenal. What we did not account for in this
grade would have been fascinating. I think it would have
been lower, but did not account for Joel Embiid's three year,
one ninety three That's the number I have in my head.
I think that's it. One hundred ninety three million dollar extension. Uh,
gotta believe we would have had some reservations about that
one at the time. Also, just just to keep it
all on the up and up. The Yabusele signing had
also not happened when we apparently it did.
Speaker 1: I was wrong. Okay, greed looked back. So we we
did have the Yaba, but that was not what we
were probably like, okay, cool, like yeah, oh remember hit
like they were coordering the market on guys with big cabooses,
Like yeah, really right, yeah that's.
Speaker 2: Probably now It's well, I mean, in fairness, Yabu Selly
had looked good. I mean there was a lot of
buzz about him, right, like, he looked good in the Olympics.
Speaker 1: I think people even now said, like wolves is shooting
gonna hold and like one we don't really know, but
part of his like half decade away from the NBA
was oh no, he became like a real shooter with
real Madrid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, so this I don't know where to
start with this.
Speaker 1: Really well, let's start with the thing that we didn't
grade at the time. The EMBIID was three years, one
hundred and eighty eight million. It was adjusted because I
think the cap projections coming in. Here's my thing. We
covered the Olympics for Bleacher Report, watching him gave him
game out. There were moments flickers, and we did chalk
it up to, oh, he kind of has to ramp
up and get to be himself. He never got there,
and they gave him the extension anyway, when what would
have happened if they didn't you offer it this summer
when he's just had a tackle, Like we talked about
it as this might be smart after the fact that
wasn't part of the grade. This might be smart because
they got into him for one a few a year.
But I've now come around to the idea that if
I find myself saying that, there's a real question, so
whether you should be offering the extension if your thought
process was we don't have to go the extra year
out on.
Speaker 2: It, yeah, right, because that shouldn't You shouldn't at that
dollar amount, you shouldn't have trepidation about like do we
want this to go on for as long as it can?
It should be like, oh God, I hope we can
get as many years as possible. Right, if you're talking
about that level of money, I mean not. You know, yes,
there is value in shorter deals with like balloon payments,
but like for a player of Embiid's caliber when healthy
is a red flag that just it just is and
I don't know, we haven't really talked about this, but
it's I think it's consensus, and I'm kind of on
board that, like he's never going to be like an
All NBA first team guy, and if he is, it'll
happen for thirty ish games, and that just isn't going
to be sustainable. So this Embiid's current contract to me
is one of the most imaging, maybe the most in
the league, and Paul George might be a close second
unless he has a total turnaround like in his mid thirties.
So yeah, I mean, we just missed on this. I
think we didn't account for George getting hurt falling off,
and we probably overrated. This is a real lesson that
we should have known by now. You gotta be careful
going with like what a steal at the minimum that
guy was, you know, because the Sixers had a ton
of those and we liked them all. And I think ultimately,
like Eric Gordon, at the minimum doesn't matter, Like if
it's a minimum player with very few exceptions, he's not
gonna matter. Even if we think, actually that guy's worth
like five million or you know what I mean. I
think maybe that was a factor too, the.
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't. I just don't know, And it sucks that.
I'm sure you read that ESPN profile was excellent on him,
Joel Embiid, and it gives you it's really just soul
thundering to read something like that when you look at
all the stuff he's had to deal with, what's going
for his head out feels like he really can't trust anyone.
But like, just from a basketball perspective right now, it's
I don't know, it was questionable to do that in
the moment, and like you could have waited, and now
he is the worst contract in the league, especially now
that Bradley Beal is a dead cap hit for Phoenix.
So it's just it sucks and he probably still I
think he'll still look like a first team All NBA
player at points. It's like you said, though, it will
probably be for thirty games here, Like are they going
to be consecutive games? I have no idea. Well he
ever looked like that in the playoffs is the bigger thing. Uh.
The other stuff, I mean, like they were able to
get like they turned Cayler Martin into Quentin Grimes. So
it's like that deal looks really bad now, but they're
able to turn it into someone who has not signed
a new contract yet as we record this, but could
be really valuable for them. Drummond deal didn't really work
out for them. The Paul George, I don't know where
to what was anyone really saying, oh, why did they
sign Paul George? And the what was the they went
to cap space routes? If you're saying they shouldn't have
sign Paul George you wanted them to do, I guess
what is how I kind of wrapped my head. So
it does look bad now the great needs to come down,
but it's like, I'm not out on Paul George and
like he could just be healthier next year and that
could be enough to make the Sixers interesting, especially with
you know, you have excuse me, uh Tyrese Maxey, you
have Jared McCain. If he's able to stay healthy, like
this team could still be so pj Edgecombe as like
could be semi interesting. I just yeah that the embid
extension is the one I get hung up on because
I almost view as like Paul George, they had no
choice because they married themselves to that path and with Embiid.
I'm like, they could have waited and they would still
have Joel Embiid on the.
Speaker 2: Team, right, It really does all things circle back to Embiid,
because I mean, I think I can remember just killing
the Clippers for not just just bring Paul George back
because obviously somebody wants him at that number. It means
you can trade him at that number, Like just do that.
But like, if you have I'm sure we said, or
I said some version of if you have Joel Embiid,
you're sort of and he just he was even less
removed from his MVP win then than he is now.
Obviously you're obligated to just go get the best veteran
you can get, and that was Paul George and they
did it. And so like, yes, for where you are,
you're trying to win a title this year, you take
the risk of Paul George falling off or falling apart,
and the risk just came to bear, which you know,
so to me, I dropped them much lower. We like
I said, we both a plus them. I just dropped
them to an F because to oversimplify it, they signed
two agreements last summer. One is the worst in the league.
The other is probably in the top bottom five, And
I like, what else do you want me to do? Like,
if they're ever great again, I don't think it'll be
because George and and Be lead them. It'll because like
MAXI takes a leap and somebody of the edgecomb Grimes
McCain group becomes an all you know what I mean, Like,
I don't. I think the deals they signed are just
like potentially crippling. So I just and I hadn't done
an f yet, so I thought I should is the other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair. I just I mean, like
to get Max back and not have to give him
a player option when you made him wait to restrict
it free agency, I thought was like a good win.
The Gershon Jaboucelli contract. Now you could say they didn't
get a team option on that and they ended up
losing him. They had to replace him with Trent and Wafford,
who still thought that was pretty good pick up for them.
I think you can go as low. I I think
you can look at this and just say what you
did is that they have two of the five worst
contracts on the books in the league, and at least
one of them was like something they didn't need to
do even with operating inside their whole like cap space
plan or Immediacy plan. So I totally get it. It's
but yeah, that's not part of the regrade. But I
also do think and the Jared McCain pick.
Speaker 2: I know he got injured, but yeah, holy shit, it
probably shouldn't be an F I could be talking into
a D minus because you're right, McCain, MAXI good moves.
I'm gonna leave it.
Speaker 1: We're onto the Toronto Raptors, who I like. Just in retrospect,
it just feels like a very nothing burger of an
offseason side from the Scotty Barnes extension. We will go
through it anyway, though, because that's what we do. And
am I stalling just so I could timestamp this and
don't forget who's to say? They drafted Jacobe Walter at
number nineteen. They drafted Jonathan Mobo at number thirty one.
Fun fact, Ran, I'm in love with him and I
want them to free him because they have too many
non spacing bigs. They traded one million dollars for Olmrich
Schampshay at number fifty seven. I very much liked that
traded Jalen McDaniels for Davion Mitchell, Sasha Vazankov. Jamal Shed,
who was the number forty five pick in Portland's twenty
twenty five second round pick, signed Emmanuel Quickly for five years,
one hundred and sixty two point five million dollars, Scottie
Barnes five year max, Bruce Brown. They picked up his
team option, Garrett Temple. He's gonna get a statue. What
else is there to say? He was on a one
year minimum. They had Bruel Fernando at a one year
minimum at the time. They had Brandon Carlson on a
two way, and they are responsible for letting him get
to the Oklahoma City Thunder. So they get in f
Where did you? We were like, I actually think that
it kind of makes sense to so we both gave them.
We've been revealing it at the end, but like we'd
both given them. I gave them a C minus. You
gave them a C in real at the time. How
are you feeling about this now?
Speaker 2: So obviously the the rookies, I don't think I don't
see Jamal Shed anywhere here they ended up.
Speaker 1: He was Jamal Shed was part of the GEO mcdeanh
you were was Davion Mitchell Trade.
Speaker 2: So uh, I kind of liked their rookie I like Mobo.
I thought Walter who knows, but he showed a few
things and then shed was interesting. And like Jamison Battle,
like I don't know how they ended up with him,
but he made a million threes, so they that wouldn't
have been a factor because I couldn't possibly have had
opinions on how much I liked those guys prior to
seeing them last year.
Speaker 1: Oh no, you had strong opinions on Jamison Battle.
Speaker 2: I'm sure. Yeah, it's just like where don't know where
it came from. That's but so like, I could definitely
see this moving up based on those guys, except for
the fact that don't love the Quickly. It's funny to
me that the Quickly deal is the one that's like
mentioned by everybody that's looking for more money and free agency, Like, well,
this fucking guy look at Quickly got one six two.
Speaker 1: Do you think that Yaka Pearl is gonna be the
one that gets mentioned too? When the centers are looking
for money.
Speaker 2: You don't want to corner the market of like of
free agent and extensions and free agent deals that other
players agents point to as like, come on, you gotta
at least get me up to Pearl money, like that's
not what you want as Toronto. And then the Barnes deal.
I wish I could remember exactly what I thought about it.
I bet I felt better about it than what Wagner's deal,
but I could imagine and no player options similarly, but
I could imagine kind of being like did we need
to go all the way on that? So? What did
we have last year?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: You had? Oh? Interesting, I was higher than you on
C minus FORUC for me, well, I don't want to jump.
Do you have thoughts before we jump to what our
what our regrades are?
Speaker 1: I think I get hung up Onto like what I like?
I like Jamal Shed, I like Mobo, I like Jacobe Walter.
I'm fine on like he's got some really just like
on ball jiggle and joggle. But I'm just wondering, like,
did they It doesn't seem and it felt this way
at the time unless you maybe part of this is
because quickly ended up playing so little again, but like
there's a lack of coherence to what they're doing here.
Where's they might have a bunch of intriguing players, but
have they put even Scotty Barnes. I'm fine with the
five year max still for him. I actually don't like
I think that's a net neutral deal at this moment,
and I if he was eligible for it now, I
might still give it to him. But like, I just
Jonathan Mobo is a good example. It's like, hey, that's
a really interesting player to have. You like the context
of your roster makes no sense for a lot of
the guys that you have. And it's continued with Colin
Murray Boyles now being on the team. So I and
the quickly deal. You've already mentioned this, but that wasn't
one we know what restricted free agency. It's not just
was this offseason what it has been for years at
this point. And I know that you viewed him or
not viewed him. You treated him as kind of this
crown jewel in the uh og Ananobi trade. But like
you couldn't negotiate it a little bit harder. It's a
flat rate, so it's gonna it'll be worth sixteen percent
of the salary cap by the end of it. I
just I don't know, man, I just feel like they
could have negotiated harder on that, and he could still
be really good. He's he's arguably like one of their
two or three most important players because of how he
can open up the floor for everybody else. But yeah,
I came out of this feeling not as good about
the offseason, even though it's just like, what's the one
movie you point to and say, oh, they they effed up?
And I don't know that you could say they effed
up majorly in any one area for sure.
Speaker 2: I think that's right. So you went from C minus
to D plus. I went from C to C minus.
So just like some minor we knocked it down a
little bit there. I do think you raise a good
point with Quickly, and I wonder if, like, tell me
if you do you think it's fair to look at
almost any deal that was signed last summer and Quickly
is a good example, because it's like we're hemming and
huing and kind of maybe think that's an overpay to
criticize deals like that, because it's like sometimes sometimes you
can't say, well, like you know who, just sometimes you
can say, well, we know what next summer is gonna
look like, and there's not money out there, Like imagine
if quickly as a restricted free agent this this summer,
Like he's probably still unsigned and we're talking about like
three year deals for sixty million or whatever it is, right,
like there's or like even Barns, it's like, okay, if
you don't five year, no options maxim, what's he gonna
get this year? Like I I do think the landscape
was clear enough. I'm trying to put a finer point
on this. I know I'm rambling. I think teams should
have known enough about what free agency was gonna look
like and about how much cap space would be available
this summer to have been playing some much harder hardball
a year ago, because like you just if you don't
extend quickly, oh my god, he's gonna be so pissed
and like this isn't gonna work out. It's just like, yeah,
but he's gonna get into free agency and there's not
gonna be any money, so we're gonna get him for
you know what I mean. Like, I do think it's
maybe fair to criticize teams that jump the gun and
maybe overpaid a little bit, because everybody should have known
that this summer was just not gonna be uh like
a cash rich environment for potential free agents.
Speaker 1: Right, and it's also just even look at I don't
want to keep bringing them up, but like the Rockets
were able to negotiate with Alpa and Shangun, but you
couldn't negotiate harder with the manual quickly. And they were
able to negotiate with Ja Barry Smith Junior this past summer,
but you weren't able to negotiate with the manual quickly?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: I don't and I hate saying this, but is there's
sort of a Toronto tax here where they're really just
worry guys would leave for less money. Well I just
make someone give you an offer sheet or sign the
qualifying offer, but like I'll dare them to do it.
Then yeah's if that was the feeling. And there's a
chance I think Quickly could end up being worth this deal,
but a season of it was already burned. So it's
already just underwater because like he didn't live up to
that price point. I and look, you can't. I don't
think you could say that you feel I feel the
same about Scotty Barnes, a deal where I still would
have given it to him, But you can't sit here
into like Scottie Barnes at the type of season made
me feel like he's just gonna be perfect and this
deal is gonna end up making so much sense. We
can say that about Kid, we could say that about
Evan Mobley. Still super high on Scotty Barnes. I'm actually
super intrigued by this Raptors team. But there is a
level of if I don't want to say, if it's
not a lack of coherence, they've definitely just like kind
of hidden what they're trying to do from us, like
with the overarching plan.
Speaker 2: To what end. Like's hard to say why.
Speaker 1: Grant I made a mistake and it took someone an
entire year to find it. Rome says minor quibble. Did'
Orlando immediately trade Antonio Reeves the Pelicans on Draft night?
I double checked that, or I should have double checked that.
Rome is correct, So thanks for pointing that out there. Luckily,
Antonio Reeves did not factor heavily into the grade or
the regrade of the Orlando Magic.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I the only thing I remember about Antonio Reeves
is he had a thirty something point game I think
for New Orleans, and I was grading rookie classes last year,
and I was very annoyed because, like, God, I gotta
talk about this guy now.
Speaker 1: Like the question, speaking of the Pelicans, what's the over
under the number number of triple doubles that Elfred Payton
ends up having for the Pelicans.
Speaker 2: By the end of X seven seven point five's.
Speaker 1: We get to leave Final Division grant. We're moving at
like a blistering pace by our standards.
Speaker 2: Pretty good. Oh here we go. Oh do I get
this one. I'm gonna take this one. I don't care.
Speaker 1: It is yours, so you can.
Speaker 2: We're on the Chicago Bulls, who you may recall, traded
Alex Caruso for Josh Giddy and that's it. Drafted modest
Bizzellis at number eleven. That's somebody else's bit, but I
think it's a funny one. Patrick Williams got five years
ninety million. Got a player option on it too, because
you got to give Patrick Williams a player option. Jalen
Smith three years twenty seven million. They signed and traded
to Marta Roz into the Kings for Chris Duarte, a
twenty five second round pick, a twenty eight second round pick,
and Raikwan Gray. Signed Adamos Snogo and DJ Stewart to
two ways. We didn't love this last.
Speaker 1: Summer across the board, right, Oh no, I went F
minus uf minus respect it much respect.
Speaker 2: I just went with a conventional f uh. But we
had a lot of f's. Actually there's a few in
the West teaser.
Speaker 1: One of them is going to be reversed, right, Yeah,
I believe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one I'm looking at right now is gonna
definitely be reversed. I might go all the way to
an A to be honest, but we're talking about the Bulls.
So everybody hated Giddy for Cruz, so kind of looks. Well,
tell me, what do you think since Giddy obviously unsigned
still in restricted free agency, is it is there room
for this for this to be a positive trade for
the Bulls if Giddy comes back.
Speaker 1: No, look, you didn't even know what I was gonna say,
go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2: What if he agrees to pay the Bulls twenty million
a year to be on the team.
Speaker 1: Here's my I think. So you were gonna go something
along the lines of, what if he just comes back
on a deal that we deem ultra reasonable? Is like, congratulations,
you decided to trade someone who at one point, And
I don't want to hear this from any commenters who
claim to have sources. You could want Point have gotten
two first round picks for him, and you decided to
trade that for ultra reasonable awesome, Like, that's that's the
problem here. I think now, I think the Bulls are
playing the Josh Giddy negotiations correctly, and he had, by
his standards, a fine season. What is your endgame with
Josh Giddy? And you've now put yourself in this weird
position to where whatever you pay Josh Giddy is gonna
factor into Kobe White's future. Who is the better player,
and you probably should trade him. But if you're not,
are you gonna pay these dudes like a combined sixty
million dollars a year moving forward to be your back court?
And where is that getting you? So? There is there?
This my grade for the Bulls spoiler, it's gonna go
up because I ended up liking the Jalen Smith deal
I thought was ended up being pretty good for them.
I love Madus Buzellis.
Speaker 2: That's it for me.
Speaker 1: But there's the job there is There's no case you
can make where the Josh Getty trade makes sense now
And if anything. The fact that they feel the need
to negotiate him and squeeze him kind of just reinforces
our point because they do not think they're not looking
at him saying that's like a top twenty player, but
we're gonna try and squeeze him because the market has
driven h No, No, I'm not sure he's good. That's
exactly what you could say, Well, they dodged a bullet
with the Alex Caruso extension. No, you could have traded
and maybe he couldn't have gotten you two first round
picks last summer. I think he could have. He could
have gotten you two first round picks at some point.
And it is this is not with the benefit of hindsight,
where it's we couldn't have known the Bulls needed. Yes,
we could have. We knew they needed to trade him
for years. So I again, Josh Getty had a better
season than I expected, especially when it came to shooting
the ball. But as someone if you're looking at him
for rim pressure, drawing fouls. Defensively, he's basically like a
I won't even call him a four, but it's we
need to put him on like the slowest footed perimeter
player out there and hope that a team has said
player for that to work. It was it was a
bad trade for them, and I don't think it doesn't
look any worse now, is that a compliment?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we we hated it. Then it's not any different.
I mean, so it's it's the Caruso trade, hate it
the Patrick Williams deal. I mean, like it's a different
brand of bad, but it's all it might be equally bad, right,
Like it's a different type of transaction. It's just this
he could just work. Hey, just just chop in whatever
we said last summer about it, because nothing has changed,
which is just like who was competing, who was going
to go to ninety, who was offering a player option
that you needed. It's just it's it's all the same,
like they're just now, Look, Williams didn't even get.
Speaker 1: A player option in Jalen Williams.
Speaker 2: In the grand scheme of things. Ninety million dollars over
five years is actually not like a you're not crippled
because of this deal. It's just that like if I
don't know, somebody put I'm sure it's somebody put together
a formula that weighs Patrick Williams's on court contributions and
assigns a dollar value to those over five years. Is
it thirty million? Like you know what I mean, Like
if you're just talking about like what he produces for
you on the court, it's it's just this is a
terrible deal, and it's made worse by the fact that
absolutely nobody, like absolutely nobody was going this many years
or dollars right, Like we don't know that, but it's
like who would have I just it's just it's it's
it's as bad, I think as the trade, as the
Cruz O Giddy trade. It's just kind of different.
Speaker 1: It's I think you can make it worse, say it's worse. Well,
I guess you could say Patrick Williams might have had
upside too, but at least you didn't. Like you're the
team that's supposed to have the most information on Patrick
Williams in this scenario, and you were negotiating against yourself
and getting like if the biggest defense is like, hey,
he's only on the books for eight something percent of
the salary cap in the final year as a player option,
he's probably gonna pick up that player option. Like that's
not that's not a win. So yeah, this was still
kind of a bad offseason for them even and like
the demarg Rosen trade, like you didn't even get the
best asset involved in that deal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, san Antonio got it right. The pick ended up
going there, and.
Speaker 1: You know what they did. They got the best asset
in the Zachlavine trade too, like even though they were
the team that was giving up at because.
Speaker 2: Just so you it's just to put a bow on it.
You said F minus. I said, f You've vaulted all
the way up to a D minus and I've joined
you there, and it's for me. It's Bizellis. It was
like a really exciting rookie, and I you know, I
think it's probably more than you have a right to
expect out of a number eleven pick and a bad draft.
So really that's the only Jalen Smith is sure, But
like it's really just Bizillis was better than I expected,
and that's the only reason the Bulls get out of
the F range.
Speaker 1: I think part of my logic here too was I
guess the Josh Getty trade might look a touch better
just because he played better than I expected. But it's
still just not one that I don't know what's the
highest end out, Like, how does that trade? Is there
a scenario that he does, Like what would he have
to do on the court as a player, what would
he need to develop for it to be that trade
to be considered a w.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a it's an unfair answer. But
he would have to prove that he could like drive winning,
Like he would have to actually prove that like all
of the flaws we fixate on don't prevent him from
being a net positive player on a good team. Like
that's just I don't know, and like it's just weighed
against two first round picks. You know, I don't know
if there's anything realistically he could do that that would
two years from now, we'd both have to sit here
and say, hey, you know what we were wrong. Turns
out turns out that was a better return than two
first for Alex Caruso.
Speaker 1: We move on to the Cleveland Cavaliers, and their moves
were that we graded. They fired JB. Bickerstaff, they hired
Kenny atkins In as their head coach replace, and they
drafted Jaalen Tyson at number twenty. They signed Don Mitchell
to do a three year, one or to fifty million dollar
extension player option. On the final season they extended. Evan
Mobley got the five year max, Jared Allen three years
ninety points that that was an extension that took us
fully guaranteed three years ninety point seven million. That took
us by surprise because that was the guy's like, oh,
we're gonna we have in the notes here isaaca kor
what the fuck? Because it was taking forever for them
to sign him. He ended up signing a three year,
thirty three million dollars deal that they then turned into
Lonzo Ball. It's like, in fact, that's like good work
by the Calves there. Uh, we were I don't want
to say we were neutral. We gave them each I
think a B plus. I gave them a B. You
gave them a B plus. If anything, I don't know
how you look back on that offseason and think, oh, yeah,
I feel worse about it.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I think if your concerns with the Calves
at the moment, I guess are that, like all the
two small guards just may never work. It puts a
you know, puts a conference finals or whatever ceiling on
on your upside as a team. I don't know if
that's actually true. I just think so I moved the
grade up we were. You're correct, you had him at
a B. I had him at a B plus. I
went to an A minus. You went to an A.
Atkinson's an upgrade over Bickerstaff. Although Bickerstaff we're going to
talk about him momentarily when we get to the Pistons
landed on his feet. Yeah. The Mobile deal, that's yes,
you do that, No, no question asked there. The Allen deal,
maybe you look at it skeptically. I still don't. I don't.
I don't know. Well, actually, there's there's an embargo on
us discussing Jared Allen contracts for obvious reasons, because we're
never right about him.
Speaker 1: Has enough time asked for us to discuss that one?
Do you feel only differently about the Mobie deal because
he wins Defensive Player of the Year and now it's
the five it's like the the rookie max excuse me?
Speaker 2: Rather than I feel like that you're in and whenever
that happens, I think you're happy about it as the team.
I think so, yeah, it doesn't. It certainly doesn't make
me feel worse that like, oh no, they have to
pay a few million more I'm just curious for I mean,
and the fact that he improved offensively I think is
a big deal there too. Yeah. I think if there
weren't limits on what you could pay on extensions, he
would have deserved more.
Speaker 1: Probably.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great offseason for the Cavs. Not really anything else
to add to that unless you have something.
Speaker 1: No, that was there that was last off season was
whe everyone was calling for them to like bust it
up too, and we were That feels like forever ago.
But I think you and I predicted we set the
over under at point five of all four coming back,
and you and I took I think both took the
or being traded and we both took the over for sure.
Speaker 2: Well. That that the Athletic article that came out like
right after they were eliminated and called Jared Allen soft
and Darius Carland wants to explore options. Is like what
elsew what other conclusions were we gonna draw?
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know what. Sham's was still at
the Athletic at that point. He was, uh, he was
working off the roster, hes getting ready for ESPN, and
so he saw he dumped all the the stuff. Yeah,
that wouldn't come true. Uh did you try pistons? You
want to take us through them? Yep?
Speaker 2: They fired Money Williams and hired the aforementioned JB. Bickerstaff
got a five year deal there. Uh No, Probably most importantly, JB.
Bickerstaff wanted that job, so he was an upgrade over
Money Williams, who did not want it.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, did he even want a job or was
it just the Pistons. I'm curious.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you I would, I would do a
lot of jobs I didn't want to do. For what
did he get nine million a year? She's still getting
so good for him?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: Drafted Ron Han at number five, got Tobias Harris and
for agency for two years and fifty two million. Cad
Cunningham got his five year rookie Max has the supermax
qualifiers on there? Did he make all NBA? I can't
even remember it. So he's got that five for two
sixty nine instead of two twenty four. Those are probably
a little off. I don't know what the CAP's doing.
They traded Quentin Grimes for Tim Hardaway Junior, a twenty
five second from Toronto, a twenty twenty eight second from Miami,
and a twenty eight second uh from the Clippers or
Charlotte Uh. They traded camp Spencer number fifty one for
Wendell Moore Junior and Bobie Clintman number thirty seven got
Malik Beasley for one year and six million dollars. That's
that's a that's a pretty good deal as long for
a one year. Simoni Fontecio got two year, sixteen million
Paul Reid they claimed off waivers. Dan, we like someone
looked down here. We both were like meh, pretty meh
about the Pistons offseason. I think we both feel quite
a bit better about it. What's your favorite? What's the
best move they made? The best move in hindsight? Man?
Speaker 1: Is it? I mean probably just extending kid Cunningham, but
it probably would be just because was he ever knock
going to extend with them? Would be hiring JB. Bickerstaff, Right.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of those two, And like the
Cunningham one, I think was just that was gonna happen.
There wasn't any I can't remember what we talked about.
I don't think there was any like hemming and hawing
over it always be worth it. I think it was
from us.
Speaker 1: No, but it was a pretty divisive, tokic, toxic topic
I think in NBA circles in general. But he kind
of answered the bell on that one ten times.
Speaker 2: I gotta believe I wasn't in love with the bickerstaff
higher because I kind of just viewed him as like
he's the twentieth to twenty fifth best coach in the league,
Like what difference is he possibly gonna make? Turns out
a lot when the baseline is as low as it
was under Williams. So yeah, that in some ways that's
an easy hire. It's kind of it's a retread. You
probably didn't have to pay him that much. But in
other ways, like maybe it's kind of inspired because he
very much seemed like the exact right coach for the
phase of development that the Pistons found themselves in last year.
So and I think we both like Ron Holland. I
don't know if you're redrafting if you knock him down
a spot or move him up, but five totally totally
defensible pick. I think to take him at five, Harris
is fine twenty six million a year on average. And
then obviously the results were what they were, Like the
Pistons won three times as many games as they did
the year before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we did quibble over like what Quentin
Grimes got them like they got it felt like even
in time, they took on the worst player and just
weren't compensated enough. And then the other thing too. This
is very small at the moment, but I really like
Cam Spencer and the fact that, like Bobby Clinton doesn't
seem like he's gonna fa and I liked him, doesn't
feel like he's gonna factor in makes me a little bit.
I have some trepidation there. But that's again you're having
in hallingd. This Semoni five techot deal did not turn
out to be as good as we expected. He kind
of fell off the face of the earth for them.
But the Malie Beasley deal, regardless of what he has
going on off the court and is currently unsigned, that
ended up being like the second year running, he would
one of the best contracts I got a per dollar
basis on the NBA.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he was at times, you know, obviously
Cunningham's their most important offensive player, but like there were
a lot of stretches where Beasley was number two, Like
in terms of like how important are you to making
this offense work. So yeah, six million for him is phenomenal.
So you started at a C plus last year I
gave him a C. We've both moved him to B plus.
Hard to argue with the results. Like most of their
big swings and small ones like basically worked out and
the like the Fontechio level transactions certainly didn't hurt them.
So yeah, just a really stellar offseason for them in hindsight.
Speaker 1: My spoiler alert is I don't mind their off season
this summer as much as a lot of other people
seem to do. I think they rebounded nicely in the
face of some drama. But we move on to the
Indiana Pacers. They grant drafted Tristan Newton at number forty nine,
drafted Enrique Freeman at number fifty, traded Wan Nunia has
number thirty six, and cash for Johnny Furfey who was
number thirty five. Paid Pascal Siakam four years, one hundred
and eighty nine point nine million dollars. That was the
max gave Obi top in four years fifty eight million.
We didn't love that deal. Andrew Demhark got a three year,
fifty eight point seven million dollar extension James Wiseman two years,
four point eight million. Only a half million was guaranteed.
They had a team option in the second year, James
Johnson one year at the minimum. Quinton Jackson was on
a two way. We were not fans of the Pacers offseason.
We actually the thing we had the least problem with
and even supported while everybody else didn't necessarily seem to
love it, was the Siakam Max. We also did not
grade the TJ. McConnell extension four years forty five. Only
part of that is guaranteed, but we both gave them
across the board d pluses. We were pretty and can
you guess I did listen back? Can you guess what
our biggest gripe was?
Speaker 2: I gotta believe mine was topping. I gotta believe I
just hated that and turned out I think I'm pretty
clearly wrong about about him, or at least it looked
that way last year. So was that it was it
topping for me?
Speaker 1: I can't remember, yes, And then well, it was the
two things we talked about were the top and deal.
And then it was kind of the Orlando Magic argument
of you had all this evidence of what you needed
most and proceeded to go out and not get that,
and we didn't call their playoff run a fluke that
at that time, but it was you clearly needed another
combo wing type here, and you had the flexibility again
to go do things, and you did absolutely nothing. And
the Obi top and deal is it does look better
in hindsight because he had, like he was really impactful
for them at points this seasons, including during the NBA Finals.
But it's also just that's still not a contract that
teams are going to be beating down the door to
take on, I don't think. And the other thing too,
is I had criticized John Hollinger for saying this at
the time, and it turns out I was wrong the
Andrew Nemhart extension. Doing that a year before you had
to probably ended up costing you. Miles Turner, Okay, let's
let's unpack that. Because I've heard him, I'm aware that that's.
Speaker 2: His take to not his take like that's that like
makes it seem like it's not factually true that like
the money worked out the way it did, But isn't
isn't the counter that if you had not signed them
hard to that deal last year, you would have had
to pay him much more now, But I guess that
doesn't matter in terms of like you'd have.
Speaker 1: Though until twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty or excuse me,
twenty six twenty seven, because it was he had the
two years at the lower volume left on his deal, right,
So I'm assuming that's his argument. But you could also
then say, well, Tyr's Haliburton's injured. What does it matter.
I've seen the numbers with Miles Turner with without Tyrus
Haliburt and offensively the shooting splits. I get it, bad
asset management, but it's something to think about. I again,
I'm I think Andrew Nemhart on I guess it comes
down to would you rather have Miles Turner still here
or Andrew Nemhart on this deal versus what you think
it would have cost to retain him if you didn't
have him on this contract?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it's hard to answer that without knowing
what Nemhard would get right, Like I mean, is it
does Nemhard get well again because we're negotiating this summer, right,
and it's not like, well, no, because we're still talking
about an extension. It's not like he would have been
an unrestricted free agent, and the argument of of like, well,
nobody has any money, so you can lowball him, Like,
that's not the situation it would have been.
Speaker 1: Right, No, it wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess that's compelling. I kind of dismissed
that idea as like, well, I just I think Nemhard's
on a great deal. I like, you just do that
because he's a really good player being paid under market.
But I guess if the trickle down is you lose Turner,
although they didn't have to lose Turner, right like they
could have. That's that's the that's the hang up is that.
Speaker 1: They've I think what I just struggle with is there's
clearly always been just I don't even know if it's
a disconnect, but they have never valued him as much
as I feel like people think that they need to
value him. And I still look at God. Yes, you
could cite the shooting splits. You could say he played
poorly in the finals, okay, like you needed to get
to a point to be in the finals. He was
a huge part of that. But players who do what
he does are so rare. There's like four of them
like that, right, And I've just seen too I like
Jay Huff, but I've just seen too much of just like, oh,
they might not even feel it, Like Jay Huff is there,
and I'm just like, no, I don't. Maybe maybe we'll
be doing this this time when we do their offseason
grades for this year, we're gonna be coming back next year.
Like wow, like Miles Turner at the worst season of
his career.
Speaker 2: But who knew Obie Toping could play center, right?
Speaker 1: Obie Topping all defense? My god?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so yeah, Turners, I guess except for
how Nimhar does relate to Turner, the Turner thing isn't
really relevant till last summer. I was just wrong about Topping,
I think, and so I have to boom bump them
from a D plus to a C plus. You went
to a C similar logic. I assume, like just the
things we disliked we were just not right about. I mean,
the part of it is like, Okay, I didn't know
the Pacers were going to reinvent how offensive basketball worked,
so like, I sorry, but but like I don't know,
I don't know how you factor that in if you
do it all well.
Speaker 1: It's also they kind of did they came off this
like trip deep into the playoffs and we're like, oh,
you need to We didn't tell them to do something reckless,
but it was like you needed to do more to
make sure you got back to that point. And it
looked like we were right basically through what Thanksgiving or
whatever it was. But then Andrew Nemhart comes back and
they're like, these guys are just humming at both ends
of the floor. So I we were clearly wrong about
our assessment of them as a team. But I don't
know how you look back at last offseason and think it.
I guess it's just, oh, we kept Andrew dem Harden,
Pascal Siakam and that ends up being a huge deal
on the Obi Top and contract looks better than expected.
I don't think you got you didn't get a steal
on it like Pascalk got the Max. I think that's
people thought it was a bad deal. I think it's
a fine deal. But Obi Top is not a steal.
Speaker 2: No, No, that's true.
Speaker 1: Andrew.
Speaker 2: I would I would not have liked the McConnell deal
had we graded it last year. I would have been like, oh,
what do you need him for? You have nim hard
and Haliburton like that. It's not that, it's just like,
why are you investing eight figures in a third or
fourth guard? That makes no sense?
Speaker 1: And I would he's the best ISO score of all time.
Speaker 2: I would have been wrong about that too.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to take us through the Milwaukee Bucks?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? They drafted A. J. Johnson at number twenty three.
I remember hating that they drafted Tyler Smith at thirty three,
got Delawn Right, Torrian Prince, and Gary Trent Junior all
for minimums. They signed Stanley and Moody to a two
way and onse Ish Pasechniks to a two way as well.
So relatively uneventful, and yet we loved it. It's just
this is a classic case of we just love the
minimums basically right, well, you had them, they didn't They
couldn't do anything.
Speaker 1: Right, and it was so, oh, do you want a
short circuit? Do we want to see them trade like
anything to do something ridiculous. No, we didn't want to
see them do that. So it was oh, they they
came in with no flexibility, no money to spend, and
they left with Prince and Gary Trent Junior were the
names that we harped on them most. You got those
guys at the minimum and by the way, those deals
look better now because we'll see if it cost them
when they have their early bird rights. But you were
able to convince them to stay, which I think is
a pretty big deal without having a ton of flexibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we we had them at Oh, you had
him at a B plus. I had him at an
A minus. We just love those minimums. You stated a
B plus. I dropped to a B plus just because
I don't know. Ultimately, I don't have a great reason.
Feels like A is just too high when the only
thing they did was signed minimums.
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing, too, is just I think you
could look back and kind of say where there are
other opportunities for them in the draft to make other
than Like Tyler Smith at Johnson.
Speaker 2: It was not even on the team anymore.
Speaker 1: You traded him was part of the dump for Walton
Wilton dump. They traded Chris Middleton to get Kyle Kuzma.
Is there anyone that, like, man, imagine Aj Mitchell instead
of Tyler Smith on this Like it's when you get
to the second round, it's kind of splitting hairs. I
wasn't when you even look at the first round and
A J. Johnson to begin with, and it's not that
like there's been a few players drafted after him that
were better, but Keishawn George, like people knew about him
at the time, Tarren Shannon Junior by an invent Ryan
Dunn would have been a pretty good pick for them,
So you could if you wanted to demerit them for that,
But I just have we have so little information on
AJ Johnson and even if he ends up being good,
that move is not part of it. Like them getting
rid of him isn't part of their offseason grade. That'd
be part of their trade deadline happening. It is great. Yeah,
so yeah, fine offseason for the Bucks. This offseason is
gonna be way more interesting to grade grants. Do you
have anything else to add?
Speaker 2: Did we do it? Oh? Man, we'd good job by us.
Uh no, I don't have anything else to add. I think, uh,
let's see, well maybe by way of recap now that
would be too complicated. But who's the the biggest swing
obviously was the sixers. We went from the A range
to the F range, trying to see if anybody else
really made huge jumps.
Speaker 1: I guess the Hawks. I think for me might have
had the biggest upswing. I would to see minus to
an A.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bump them up quite a bit too. I
don't know. I think you feel like we learned anything.
What are your takeaways? What are you going to take
into your next set of off season grades from this process?
Speaker 1: Absolutely nothing.
Speaker 2: We don't learn here. We're not here to learn. It's
like that was the pitch from A. Wasn't that the
the way Larry David explained, like how Seinfeld the show
was going to work like nobody's ever allowed to learn
anything from what they do wrong.
Speaker 1: That's why it's good. If we've accomplished you learning absolutely nothing.
We've done our.
Speaker 2: Jobs we did hope, hope you learned nothing. Hope you
still listen though, And if you do a rate review
and subscribe, tell your friends, tell your enemies. If you're
watching this on YouTube, believe us a comment there. If
you watch this live, thanks, We're going to try a
few more of these and just kind of see how
they go. What else do I need to say? Dan,
it's been two weeks since I the West.
Speaker 1: We'll have the West, I think same time next week.
We're planning two thirty Pacific five thirty on Friday PM
Eastern time, sept Oh my god, that was next Friday,
five thirty pm Eastern time, two thirty pm Pacific time.
We will do the West regrades. And there's a few
there's a there's a couple of interesting teams that talk
about there.
Speaker 2: We might have to we used this for other things.
We might have to title that one like we're wrong
and we're sorry for a couple of.
Speaker 1: Vis I'm not I'm not sorry about this at all, but.
Speaker 2: Well, we're just wrong. That's right, no learning, no apologies.
Maybe that should be any tag like to the show.
Thanks again, everybody.
Speaker 1: Uh, I think that's all
Speaker 2: Shouts fringe Latino apologies Jared I