Speaker 1: The paranormal UFOs, Monsters Mysteries. As you're listening to Talking
Weird and now from a Kevin Deep in the northwards,
your host, Doctor Dean.
Speaker 2: Bertram, Greetings of my fellow weirdos and weirdo's. Welcome to
Talking Weird on the Untold Radio Network. As always, I'm
delighted that you've decided to spend the next hour or
so of your night with me. That is, if you're
watching me live somewhere in my same time zone I suppose,
or perhaps you're watching or listening to it somewhere else
around this wonderful planet. I'm of course, in the northwoods
of Wisconsin, and it is pouring down with rain to
night and thunder and lightning, and the house shook before,
so hopefully some you know, I don't know, bolt from
above won't all of a sudden kill this show midway through,
because that would be very upsetting. Because I'm so excited
about this episode tonight. We're going to get there in
a minute. But again, thank you for joining me wherever
you are in the world and wherever you are watching
and listening to this, whether it's Facebook or ex or
YouTube or maybe on one of the many podcast platforms
that the audio only version drops on the next day
with all the other wonderful shows which are part of
the Untold Radio network. Before I bring on my guest,
I have a little self spricking to do. For those
of you who have been following me on this show
for some time now, know that I've been long in
the process of making a feature film called The Man
Who Invented Flying Sources, which is getting closer and closer
being Donefully, we will shoot that out this summer. But
a short version of that film, or rather a standalone
segment from that film, just called The Shaver Mystery, which
I also talk about all the time. It's ha an
incredible run on the festival circus. I think two years
next month that's been screening at festivals for We have
a couple of screenings coming up if you have not
had a chance of seeing it yet, and most of
them alive in person screenings, but this is one of
the few which is part of a film festival which
also has an online component, which means you don't have
to go all the way to Vienna, where I believe
this festival is based. You can also watch it online
and that's the hermetic International Film Festival where The Shaver
Mystery is playing on what they call a Cinema D.
There's an ABC and D. They're just different parts of
the website where you can go and watch the different
short films. That image there is actually part of the
cover of an Amazing Stories and I can hear thunder
and lightning belting a well, I can hear the thunder.
I'm assuming there's lightning as we're belting around me right now.
But if you want to go and watch that film
as of tomorrow, I believe it's from twenty fourth to
the thirtieth again, that's the Hermitic International Film Festival April
twenty four to thirty. You can get tickets and watch
it online by going to Holy Mountain Gallery dot com.
That's Holy Mountain Gallery dot com and you can buy
your tickets. So you actually you can just go through
to screen D first if you only want to watch
The Shaver Mystery and the other films playing in that section,
and you can get tickets for that or check out
any of the many other absolutely fantastic looking sections. The
next screening after that of the film is going to
be not this coming weekend, but the following It will
be on May second at the Contact Modalities Expo. That
expo runs in Delevan, Wisconsin, and from May one to third,
not only will you be able to watch my film,
they're live. I'm going to be there introducing it, and
then I'm going to do my presentation on what I
call the Shaver Mystery, Part two, which is about where
the mystery kind of continued after it fell out of
very popular side, I suppose, when it was the main
stories in the Amazing Stories pulp fiction magazine for probably
the better part of four years. After that, it's drifted
away from the public consciousness, but the mystery continued and
changed into very strange metamor I guess metamorphosed into very
very strange shapes. If you want to go to the
Contact Modalities Expo, you can get tickets by going to
Contactmodalitiesexpo dot com and Expo is spelt just with an
X no E at the beginning of it, so it's
Contact Modalities xpo dot com. And I believe when you
go to buy tickets, if you enter my name, my
first name, Dean, that's da N into the discount code box,
you'll get discount tickets to go to whether you're just
coming to see my film or whatever else you're going
to can get passes for I think each day, or
you can get passes for the whole event. I'll be
there for that event and it's going to be fantastic.
My wonderful girlfriend, Samanth who's also on the film, will
be there, so that's going to be a heck of
a time. Come up and say hello to me if
you're a listener, because I'd love to hang out with you. Anyway.
Enough about me, Now about our amazing guest. He's a
Saddlebourne and raised filmmaker and artist who's made it his
mission to revive the stories of folks with great legacy.
He's created a short film exploring the early story of
a Northwest paranormal figure, Fred Chrisman, who is also a
big part of the whole shave at Mystery and maybe
we'll touch on that a little tonight, and is now
halfway through a follow up covering the Maury Island Incident.
He's also the lead artist on an international horror comic,
The Stuttguard Shocker, blending the Twilight Zone, Twin Peaks and
vintage Tales from the Crypt, and he's currently releasing an
unfinished film using the original drawings and voice recordings of
Phil Hartman, titled Phil Hartman's Flat TV, which looks amazing
and I can't wait to see it. So I'm delighted
to welcome back to Talking Weird my very good friend,
the immensely talented Brian Shicley. Greetings, Brian, Hey buddy, good
to see mate.
Speaker 3: We need to start making a film called The Other
Guy who Invented Flying Saucers. I'm gonna release it right
alongside yours, so the posters are right next to each other.
Speaker 2: Fantastic that we could do a double bill.
Speaker 3: We remember, like Deadpool was doing those fake posters. I
could just ape off your thing and then I could
have Crispin copying the poses from the cover.
Speaker 2: I did it too. You always try to convince me
too to do it. It's a great idea to do
a shave of Palmer buddy movie, like a docu drama
or a docu comedy drama.
Speaker 3: Like like just an off the Beaten Path, just two
buddies and it would be a road trip. I don't know,
why don't they end up in Wisconsin together at the end.
Speaker 2: Well, they end up in Wisconsin. But then it's a
long story. Shaver of flees Wisconsin for one very for
scandalous reason, and he ends up in the summit, and
then their friendship eventually kind of falls apart by the
very end, and that's another long story. But you could
do there would be a story at the beginning. I
suppose in some stage of that when they're traveling together.
Speaker 3: It could be like that. There is one of the
Batman movies where Robin becomes corrupted, and it ends with
the first day Robin's on board and he goes, this
is great. I can't wait to be your new best friend.
And you know that'll be the tear jerker you'll have
Shaver and Palmer shake hands.
Speaker 2: It's just, you know what, it's an exciting story, their
life story, but it's also incredibly sad and tragic in
so many parts. As you will know. I mean, you
probably are one of the few people who I can
talk Shave a Palmer with. You know, our own language,
cos and there's some coherence. Our audience are probably now going, well,
they've suffered me talking about this long enough that they
probably probably get that we have we have a listener.
Doug at D four five four three, saying, how's it going.
I'm about to listen driving home in torrential rain. Wish
me luck. Well, it's torrential rain here as well, Doug,
so I do definitely wish you luck. There's Samantha and
a chat. Hey baby, it's good to see you there.
Speaker 3: It's like the first day of summer over here.
Speaker 2: It was warm here.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: I think what happens is when the weather changes in Wisconsin. Yeah,
what happens is that that big shock of the extreme
warm temperature. I don't know, there's some inversion of what
then we seem to get whenever it gets really warm
at the beginning of the season, we get the very
serious storms. We had a tornado warning last week. My
daughter and I were in the basement, like you know,
my phone started to do one of those emergency warnings.
It was like go to the basement now, like literally,
like I think they had a number of warnings, and
we went down there after maybe the second because we
had to get stuff together. But the first warning was
the most severe. It was like people like outside, animals
and people are likely to be killed somewhere, really extreme.
We didn't get the tornado, but I guess they were
just you know, prepping us for it. So we went
down to the basement for you know, I suppose an
hour or so, and then it was all or clear. Ah,
Horrace Smith, because he knows what we're about to start
to talk about. That's a good segue for us to
get to where we want to go. Horrace Smith, of course,
is a good friend of the show. He's also Professor
emeritus of Astronomy and Physics at Michigan State University and
a good friend of mine. And he says, wasn't a
storm underway when the source of landed in the movie
Invaders from Mars Stay Safe. I believe that's absolutely correct,
and we will get to Invaders from Mars at some stage.
Of course. I know Horace is talking about the first one,
not the Toby Hooper remake. They're both great, but that
first one I think is symbolic in many ways of
American Cold War fears as well as fears of you know,
the whole source of flap that was happening the moment,
and Doug made it home. I'm very glad to hear that.
Speaker 3: Doug, you would think this is going to be all
me talking about Saucer movies. But this is actually a
covert plan for me to hear about Saucer movies from that.
No one at the library was going to tell me about.
Speaker 2: Well that maybe we should invite the audience as well.
If at any time there's a Saucer movie you want
to throw out there, like.
Speaker 3: Jump, I happen to watch it. I have to watch
it because I The only thing that I did is
I the preliminary thought was movies that are quote unquote
based on are inspired by a true story. So my
diet was Fire in the Sky. Close Encounters are sort
of a composite, but Fire in the Sky and Communion
were the two big ones.
Speaker 2: They're both fantastic movies. I think Communion probably captures the
essence of Whitley Streebi's tale better than the Fire in
the Sky movie captures the essence of Travis Walton's so
we get we can get into that. I do think
it's interesting that you said you focus mainly on those
films which seem to be based I guess more in
UFO fact or UFO law or UFO cases, because I
think when we first got Saorcer movies in America, which
is in the early nineteen fifties. I think an argument
can be made both ways that the Saurcer movies were
being influenced by Sourcer flaps, and the source of flaps
were at the same time being influenced by the Saucer movies.
So it's not even really a case of what came first,
the chicken or the egg. I think it's a case
of the imaginal in the more esoteric sense, in phenomenological
you know, actual apparitions of things in the skies. And
there's also then the imagination working with you know, authors
and filmmakers and writers in Hollywood. They're both trying to
come they're both trying to come to grips with the
same kind of things. So for example, and I know
i'll throw it back to you, but I think this
is as great a place to start this conversation as Anie.
In the summer of nineteen fifty two, I think was
the summer there was a very well known source of
flap over Washington, d C. It was such big news
that pushed the Democratic National Convention that was happening at
the same time off the front pages. This became like
national news, and people like airline pilots, radar, you know,
control traffic, airline you know, aircraft traffic operator types, the
civilians on the ground, policemen on the ground, people were
seeing glowing phenomena above the nation's capital. And the assumption
was led by the press, and certainly because we were
already into the source of flat by about you know,
five years by then, and that this was flying sources
buzzing the nation's capital. Now, of course, all people were
really seeing was strange lights in the sky. But the
year before that, Americans had witnessed a UFO land in Washington,
d C. They'd witnessed an alien come out of it.
They'd witnessed the military respond. They'd seen a bright light
in the sky and the distance come closer and closer,
and all of a sudden it was a disc shaped craft.
And then they saw it land on the Washington Mall
and open up, and they saw its handsome space brother
emerged with a warning and a message for mankind. That,
of course, was the film The Day the Earth Stood Still.
But that had set the tone in America to expect
almost a potential UFO landing in Washington, DC, and also
more importantly taught Americans visually that a light in the
sky in the distance hovering over Washington, DC. It wasn't
just a light when it came close. It was a
flying saucer. So multiple historians, including myself, have made the
point that it's difficult to talk about that flap of
fifty two, which is one of the most important UFI
O flaps in the first you know, decade of flying sources,
maybe the first two decades, without referencing the day the
stud still so there's almost a case of the phenomenon,
or at least people's perceptions and interpretation of the phenomenon,
borrowing from Hollywood, which had already borrowed from the stories
that UFOs were, you know, in American sky. So see,
they're interconnected. I think that's a great place to start
the conversation.
Speaker 3: I got a word for you that only you and
I are going to know. Ready, roll ads.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we both know. It'd be funny if anyone,
if anybody knows what to roll at is throw it
into the chat, like we'll give the We'll give the
chat thirty seconds in case anybody everyone.
Speaker 3: Up for it. So, Okay, Throughout the history of UFO,
we've always had this concept that there were there was
some vehicle in the air I mean before blimps and balloons.
We you know, the sky ships was a term, and
that was a term while they were testing out what
eventually became hot air balloons. There's reports of sky ships
that you can easily say are UFOs that may have
just been very early distributions of what hot air balloons
to ultimately become. And throughout history all the way down
to like War of the World with H. G. Wells,
the concept of how do you move from planet to planet?
It started off his version was bullets. You would shoot
a giant bullet from one planet to another, and you know,
you had a metal craft that the alien you know,
the other worldly beings land in and then they come out.
And I mean, when was when was the original War
of the World's When was that written?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: I mean as far as the the Awson Wales broadcast
was thirty eight the HG. Ironically, it's funny that you
mentioned the airships because I believe Auson Wells', not Awson HG. Whales.
War of the World's the book, the novel, the novel,
the novelett It's a fairly small book. I believe that
came out in eighteen ninety seven, the same time the
Great airship Flap went across America. Yeah, so again people
dealing with you know, both of the both Wells and
the American public were perhaps cognizant that we were on
the we were on the edge of you know, heavier
than air travel, maybe from outer space in the wells
of version, or maybe from you know, crazed inventors, which
was often the case in some of the stories that
people circulated in the American press at the time. But yeah,
it's interesting. There's a total correlation.
Speaker 3: There's there's this beautiful give and take where we've always
had a concept and for instance, and we'll get to
rollouts in a second.
Speaker 2: No one's jumped in with the roll up, by the way,
so whenever you want to go, feel free.
Speaker 3: Kenneth Arnald sees the very the very first major UFO sighting.
There had been examples of FOO fighters throughout history. There
had been other pilots, but Kenneth Arnald's the one who
claimed to see nine flying objects. He claimed they were
kind as chevron shaped more than they were UFOs. And
I just assume he was talked to by the journalist
so much. What does it fly like? Oh? It flies
like a saucer. Okay, and the headline flying Saucers took
over and suddenly the mass consciousness everyone saw saucer shaped things.
And Fred Chrisman, who's best friend and compatriot Harold Dahl,
who was the subject of the Moray Island incident, they saw,
well Doll saw six discs, but they were donut shaped.
They were had a hole in the middle. And when
all this came to be, and Ray Palmer, who was
head of Amazing Stories and then Fate Magazine. Later he
when they interviewed him, they're like, what do you think,
and he goes, I think Shaver beat them all to
it with rolats because in the Shaver Mystery they had
talked about hovering basically hover cars if you look at
the covers, if that's how you want to interpret what
Shaver was talking about, were called rollats at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and it does seem that. And I went
rund about this too long, because I'm sure everybody who
watches or listens to this show regularly heard me rant
about it often enough. But it seems well, perhaps, I mean,
I want to say that Shaver and Palmer perhaps were
responsible for much of the interpretations that followed. But certainly
again there's a correlation because in the years in the
lead up to Arnold's sighting, the pages of Amazing Stories,
which was a science fiction magazine, remember America's leading science
fiction pulp magazine, but still a science fiction pulp had
had gradually and then almost completely been over to overtaken
at least the majority of its pages by Shaver mystery
stories and which were meant to be factual. Oh I
love that boy, that puppet Shaver mystery stories that were
meant to be factual, and also just article on various
forty and phenomenon including flying sources before we had the
term flying sources. In fact, when Kenneth Arnold had that
siding the Amazing Stories issue of June nineteen forty seven
that was on the newsstands when Arnold had his famous
sighting near Mount Rainier in Washington State, which is your
part of the world, there was an article in that
All Shaver issue, All Shaver Mystery issue of Amazing Stories,
written by the great forty and Vincent Gaddis, and it
was called Visitors from the Void, and it essentially was
just looking at the history of strange things seen in
the skies, and before we had the term flying sources,
it was essentially saying these things were probably from elsewhere,
much like Charles Ford had said beforehand. And so when
Arnold had that siding, millions of Americans were already aware
of the Shaver Mystery, which talked about space faring civilizations
and underground essentially aliens and the like. Millions of Americans
had seen covers of amazing stories, particularly the back covers,
which often had like supposedly factual or at least people
perhaps taking a guess at what was happening with the
landings of strange craft in this planet and the potential
of ancient civilizations here having had contact with ET's much
like much like von Danikin would do twenty years later,
as well as images that looked exactly like flying sauces
would before we had the term flying sources. So America
was already primed by amazing stories by the time of
that Arnold, I think is the point I'm trying to make.
Speaker 3: I thought the puppet was going to throw you off,
and now I.
Speaker 2: Show us that puppet again. What's his name?
Speaker 3: Um? The character is Graham Crackers. And the Phil Hartman
thing I was trying to do different types of characters,
and as he goes, he's advertising a product called nes cocaine.
And the less I talk about that on a family
at work, the better.
Speaker 2: Let's just do a test. I'm going to add to
the stage the trailer of yours, which I was going
to play, kid, what's well?
Speaker 3: I think the kid's been whack?
Speaker 2: Can Can we can we talk over this? Can I
hear you? Brian?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, okay, So this is.
Speaker 2: This is the trailer for what you're talking about. Talk
us through it because it was some unfamily friendly language
in it.
Speaker 3: It shows the soccer coach talking to the to the
priest over there and he's saying, I think the kid
may be uh doing X y Z and he's like,
I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, you may
be whacking the old little hillie and you need to
be more specific. And then he goes, uh, I think
he's sneaking off in the other room, and the priest goes, oh,
you mean he's.
Speaker 2: This is your and this is your animation we were
just watching.
Speaker 3: Yeah. This is based on Phil Hartman's original drawings.
Speaker 2: It looks my age.
Speaker 3: When he turned thirty, he did a series of sketches
for We're not exactly sure what it's for, but he
never ended up releasing it. He went on to do
Brable Old Toaster, Saturday Night Live, The Simpsons, uh Kiki's
Delivery Service. He was in a lot of stuff. He
was and he was the man of a thousand voices,
but he only was ever paid to do that, Hey Patty,
like he always did that one.
Speaker 2: What was I watching? What was I watching the other day?
And I thought, of you, is Phil hot? Is it? Like?
What's it?
Speaker 3: Is? He?
Speaker 2: That Arnold Swartz a Christmas.
Speaker 3: Don Christmas Cookies? Yeah?
Speaker 2: What what's that movie? Is that? Jingle all the way?
Speaker 3: Jingle all the way? There's an interview where he smuggling
goes Jingle all the way to the bank. He was
an absolute treasure. And I've I've really muddied up my
search indexing by talking about UFOs. And then my next
opportunity is a Phil Hartman project. But I love this
idea of bringing these stories from people's past back to life.
Like Fred Chrisman had a story. Fred Chrisman had a
version of events that he wanted you to see. And
you know, Mark Frost and Twin Peaks they turned that.
He turned that into some of the background lore for
the show. Cooper always has those. I think he has
saucer dreams in the show.
Speaker 2: And then.
Speaker 3: Chris Carter with X Files did the Marlborough Man and
Cancer Man Cancer Man, and so in that it's directly
I'm ninety eight percent sure that's Chrismin. I don't know
if Chris Carter's ever talked about it. Shows allude to it,
because he's always the dude with the cigarette in the back,
controlling what's going on. And then my version is what
if everything he said was true, but we don't. We
don't pull the brakes off, and when you don't take
the breaks off, it's way funnier. It's like evil Dead.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because there's an X Files episode called
men or Memory of a Cigarette Smoking Man or something
like that, right, And essentially he's very much like Chrisman
to the degree that Chrisman is involved in all of
these legendary pseudo historical conspiratorial realities of the twentieth century.
So he's involved in the Shavin mystery, he's involved at
the very beginning of UFO law with arguably the first
UFO crash, he's meant to be involved in the Kennedy assassination.
He's involved in weird right wing you know, secret society
says all these things, much like the Cancer Man. I
never even drew that, you know that parallel until you
said it. That's fascial.
Speaker 3: It's because of the Kennedy tie. They specifically in that
show they added more. I remember that one. I had
higher hopes for that after the crazy stuff I wrote,
and when I finally saw it, I was like, Oh,
he assassinated people. That's just one of the things. Chrismn
was if The Cancer Man had a right wing radio show,
and I don't think it would have carried the same mystique.
Speaker 2: Man Chrismin is definitely a crazy cat. We have a
question from Flat Rookland Matt Auckland. In other ways, a
good friend of the show has been a guest, and
I don't know if you want to say it on air,
but he's somebody you should hook up with. You you
ucking great guy. He's asking where in Washington are you, Brian?
Speaker 3: Right now, I'm in the University District down by the
University of Washington, but I grew up in Sea tac
Bury in area Normandy Park. But and I studied in
Olympia where Matt Groening who made the Simpsons win because
I'm a big fan of animation. Should we keep going
about Chrismin? You want to talk about UFO movies now?
Speaker 2: I mean the problem with with you and me and Chrismin,
Andel Palmer and al Shava is like we could do
like we've already done one show or two shows. How
many shows have we done on that already?
Speaker 3: I don't know, but we filled half an hour with
just us catching up.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, okay, let's roll back to the UFO.
So I mean, incidentally, X files is a place we
can take it as well, and I will quickly then
I'll throw it back to you and will probably rewind
because we were talking about x files. Then. It's interesting
that the nineteen fifties alien invasion movies like Daily Stem
Steel or Earth Versus the Flying Sources, or the movie
Horrace mentioned before, Invaders from Mars or the lower budget
ones Kill Us from Space, and all these other movies.
They're all very much a product of their time. There
are product a of people not really knowing and not
really having any very firm idea about what the flying
sources are yet they're probably from out of space, but
there hasn't been enough UFO literature yet for them to
have all the occupants a little gray Man, or that
there's an MJ twelve secret government you know program that
you know, the US government are hiding from US in
league with the extraterrestrials, or that there's men in Black,
or all of these kind of things haven't been developed yet.
By the time of the X Files, of course, which
we're going forward, you know, forty years, the X Files
has a very rich tapestry of UFO belief to explore
and draw from. So by then people are very aware
of the Roswell crash, which had been forgotten after the
US Army Air Force didit's retraction the day after the
initial headlines. Euphologists didn't talk about that again until the
late seventies early eighties, but by the time of the
X Files, Roswell is the key incident. Men in Black
are a thing. By the time of the X Files,
and clearly the Will Smith movie that followed shortly thereafter,
as well, the Will Smith Vehicle, all of the legends
of eupology, the secret government dealings, the alien abduction stories.
All of these things have become part of the euphological
tale or part of the books are a part of
the euthological canon. In the nineteen fifties, Hollywood screenwriters didn't
have that stuff to get to. But by the time
of the X Files, we have all of that stuff.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I know you wanted to talk about Close Encounters, so
maybe we can rewind from that. Even in those two
snippets the fifties and then the X Files, we can
see how different Hollywood's dealings with or Hollywood's interpretation of
UFO law has become. In the fifties, it's all over
the place, it's all Cold War orientated. By the nineties,
it's all post Watergate, it's or conspiratory, it's all post
you know, UFO law being having a very certain narrative
about what happened historically from Roswell to the present. But
going back to Close Encounters, that's interesting because that's almost
halfway between the two, a little over halfway between. But
let's maybe start there. Tell me your impressions of Close Encounter.
I love it, great movie, but you tell me about it.
Speaker 3: I was going to tell you my mom's favorite show,
my late mom. Her favorite show was X Files and
I remember watching it from behind the couch. You know
British people always talking about watching Doctor Who from behind
the couch. X Files. That theme, that theme song is
still creepy to me. I don't like it.
Speaker 2: It's scary, funny enough. I had a girlfriend in Sydney
years ago, her and her brother, because we had we
had Doctor Who and Sydney in the afternoons. It was
like an after school show, like four point thirty five,
like before you had your dinner on the ABC, the
Australian Broadcasting Corporation like your PPS. I guess yes. And
she told me that her and her brother would hide
behind the couchs just like you're talking about the X Files.
Because that music of Doctor Who was so scary, just
like Mark Snow's theme for The X Files was super scary.
Speaker 3: That early synthesizer too. Doctor Who had the one of
the first synthesized theme songs, and it was just taking
samples and playing them in an order. There was no
way to like, Actually I know too much about Doctor Who.
I shouldn't start, but X Files really got me into
that kind of fiction. I would love to talk about
the nineteen seventies movie The UFO Incident, if that'd be
a good start.
Speaker 2: Sure, Deddy and Bowney Hill story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that movie is considered really campy and lame, but
I watched it and thought it was pretty effective. It's
it's arguably the most effective because it shows the least
the more you show. And we're talking about how history
of UFOs and Men in Black and all that that
took Albert Bender and all these guys years and years
to formulate, which is why by X files you have
that this rich tapestry to pull from the UFO Incident
pulls back just enough to show you. I think you
see the aliens once and they're just they're just walking
them to the to the ship, right. It's it's constrained.
It's nice. Chrispin's the exact opposite. I mean, look, there's
I gotta learn how to do this. He's holding an alien.
There are alien, there's no there's no mystery. X Files
always freaked me out because you're gonna see the grays
at some point. Chrismin on the cover of the thing
is holding the alien like and my point being that
when you when you pull back like the shark in Jaws,
you don't want to actually see the aliens. Close encounters
did it so effectively. The UFO incident did it so effectively.
I like what Fire in the Sky did, and I
liked Communion, But Communions the example of more is less.
Where that first scene in Communion if if no one's
seen it, there's this famous jump scare where walking goes
who's there and you start seeing the spooky alien head
poking out.
Speaker 2: Man, I'm getting chields just thinking about it. That's a
screay sequence, and.
Speaker 3: It's a puppet. It's a little rubber put it. Actually
it would be you know, it'd be who's there. That's
a lot spookier than that. And by the time you
get to the end of Communion there's the aliens are
moving like this. It's great.
Speaker 2: But and of course having Christopher walk and play Whitley
streeb it was like it was costing. It was just
genius costing. He's so great in that movie.
Speaker 3: I got the the original book and started listening to it,
and maybe this is a good subject to tap on
tap into. It's that book and I only made it
about two hours in, so I'm I'm gonna jump on
the jump to conclusions. Matt He talks a lot about
memory that he had that were altered, and I think
we all have really spooky I saw a thunderbird as
a kid. I saw when I was a little kid,
while my mom was sleeping. I saw this just like
like a Sketchies from the Dark crystal in my mind
and it went ah, and it freaked me out. My
mom said, go to bed. You know this is not
You're just dreaming. And I had a friend I talked
to it. He said, that's a thunderbird of Native American lore,
and it means this is And then twenty years later
I realized I lived next to Saltwater State Park where
these uh blue herons live, and they would there's videos
of them. They just wander into traffic. They look like
giant dinosaurs and they go. And it was it was
this really big paranormal thing in my mind that I
stripped the curtain back and realized that maybe anyway, I
just don't want to see the rubber alien.
Speaker 2: No, just quickly before we leave the UFO wincident, which
is cool of course, based on the Interrupted Journey, which
is a book written by what's his name is it,
I want to say, Curtis Fuller, I can't even watch
his name. I think that's right, which is about the
Betty and Barney abduction story, which kind of there'd been
UFO abductions prior to that, like the Villa BoA's case
in Brazil, and you know, but this was the one
which really introduced many of the modern tropes, particularly to America.
The start, well, the abductees, the probing, the lost time,
the memories being messed up because Villa Bo has remembered
everything like and where his was more almost like a
fairy tale version. There was actual physical family show as well,
but there was physical relations. There wasn't just like weird
genetic you know, fluid extraction and belly probing and things. Right,
But anyway, I think it's worth noting how influential that
became on the way UFO belief developed. But here's what's
interesting for the Night Show, because we're talking about the
interrelation ships of Hollywood productions and actual UFO belief. It's
perhaps one of the greatest psychosocial theorists in UFO history
is Martin Kottemeyer, and he hasn't remembered anywhere near enough
or given anywhere near enough credit. I cited him quite
extensively in my PhD dissertation, particularly on this stuff, and
Kottomeyer suggested that there's nothing in that original like, you know,
the Betty Bunny Hill story, which hadn't already been laid
out in movies like what Horace mentioned before, Invaders from Mars,
like kill Us from Space, various other U nineteen fifties
UFO movies have abduction motives. People are taken, chips are
planted in them, they forget who they are, they're kind
of they get this gap in their memories. And even
he went so far as to mention that I think
ten or twelve days before the hypnosis session which Betty
and Barney Hill remembered what happened to them under an
Outer Limits episode aired on American TV, which had the
kind of exact and alien with exactly the type of
eyes that.
Speaker 3: They had really long yeah, that Betty and.
Speaker 2: Barney Hill describe. So as kod Maia says, there's nothing
in the abduction accounts when they start that hadn't already
been dealt with in American science fiction. So it really
makes one think, what, regardless of the genuine phenomenological cause
of whatever it is that make people have these experiences,
Because I don't think abductees are lying to us, and
I don't think abductee I mean, some people are lying
in whatever field you talk about, right, But I think
the majority of abductees are sincere. I've certainly spoken to
abductees that seem very sincere in what happened to them.
But you have to wonder how much of those experiences,
how much of their perception and their memories of those experiences,
And incidentally, even more so, when those memories have been
recalled under hypnosis, how much of their subconscious hasn't been
influenced by this very very extensive effort, not intentional effort,
but this very extensive effort by Hollywood to show us
what it looks like when we're abducted by aliens. Now,
flash forward to Close Encounters, and further forward when those
movies start becoming euthologically accurate, and people today, if they
are asked in a you know, a hypnotic state to
remember what happened when they thought they were abducted by aliens,
think of all of the movies, all of the TV shows,
all the pop you know, cultural images that they have
to draw from when they recount those stories.
Speaker 3: Well, have you heard the interview, like the actual audiotape,
like Betty, like Varney in particulars. But yeah, the the
hypnotherapist is kind of leading a little bit. Did they
speak like a human? Did they speak with lips? And
when you say did they speak with lips? Your brain
goes maybe they didn't. Maybe, And I that's where this
stuff gets really interesting. I'm I'm willing to bet you
all the money in my wallet. You've probably had a
dream where you've been abducted by something, probably aliens. Maybe
Darrow's knowing you. Like the whole concept. I mean, the
Darrow subducted people too in the Shaver mystery lore. But people,
people have basic memories. There's a there's also in the
circles right now, there's this theory that the gray alien
is a composite of every doctor you've ever seen as
a child, because it's this this face that's not in focus.
It's like the end of Trainspotting when the camera goes
out of focus. He's got the kind of skull looking
face just to how the light works. It's the same idea.
It's that it's when we when we tag I have
a friend who's you know, he researches tagging animals, and
when when you do that, that's probably a UFO abduction
to it to a cat or whatever animal isn't familiar
with this. And I guess what I'm getting at is
the human mind is so unreliable when it comes to
these things that it's interesting to see what you layer on.
Communion layers a lot on, but also that this is
probably in the Interrupted Journey. I'm going to pick that
up today. It's John G.
Speaker 2: Fuller, by the way, I just checked, I said Curtis Fuller.
Of course, Curtis Fuller is is Ray Palmer's co creator
of Fake Magazine. I always have palmering on my mind.
But it's yeah, it's it's it's John J. Fuller. But
it's worth reading. And it's the psychiatrist Benjamin Simon in
that the one who does the the regression therapy as
we call it now. He didn't think they were abducted
by ets. He thought that something had happened to them that,
you know, it maybe caused them to fabulate this story.
So the very first it wasn't like he was being
it wasn't like they were you know, hypnotized by John
Mack twenty years later, or by Bud Hopkins, or by
David Jacobs, people who were all in or Edith Fiorre,
all these people who were all in on believing that
their patients had actually been taken by ETS. The very first,
you know, psychiatrist who did this work with the very
first I guess, the people who launched the modern abduction story.
He didn't think they'd actually been taken by ETS. He
thought there was something like, you know, something traumatic there,
but not an ET abduction.
Speaker 3: They saw a roadblock in some version of it that
I heard, And there's there's some understanding that they saw
people who were telling them to get off the road,
and then they started recalling being pushed onto the ship
kind of walked over. Isn't that true? I could be wrong.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the thing about there and Kurt and actually incidentally, Horace,
I thank you very much, had already said John G. Fuller,
And I hadn't actually seen that. I had to go
and google because I knew I was wrong, But thank you,
Horace Smith. And I have a question from Horace as well.
We'll get back to the interesting thing in the when
you read the interrupted journey and when you, I guess,
listen to all the tapes. I haven't listened to all
of them, but I've listened to some of them. Is
how the story transforms and how you can see the
realities from the real world impacting their imaginal And I
don't mean that dismissively, but it's this state that they
clearly entered. It impacted their imaginal experiences. For example, they'd
been they'd felt intimidated by hoodlers in black leather jackets
earlier that night, and of course we're talking about a
period in America. Well, Betty was a white woman, Barney
was a black man, where it wasn't easy to be
in rural places, necessarily being in a mixed race relationship.
So they felt threatened by that. Apparently they'd felt threatened
in the past when they'd been on road trips. And
Barney's description of the ets is very telling because he
he changes what he thinks they look like. At one
stage he says they're wearing Nazi uniforms, black leather jackets
as well, like the hoods who felt threatening, they're Nazis,
he says at one stage. Of course, probably impactful, you know,
he's probably worried again about and rightfully so. Probably at
the time he's concerned about his you know, the status
of his marriage being mixed raised. At another stage, he
says they look like irishmen, and he says within that
within that interview with Simon, he says that he's he's
known that most Irishmen he's ever met a racist. This
is a strange court. Maybe they always were, but he's
clearly he's clearly bothered by Irishmen and Nazis, maybe for
good reasons. And but they're very different from the type
of you know, the type of proto gray extraterrestrials that
they're eventually described that in another phase, I think he
says that they have noses like Jimmy Durante. Jimmy Durante
was a famous American comedian with a very big nose. Ultimately,
somehow we get to a level that they don't quite
look like gray ets yet, but they're getting us there.
They're moving into that space.
Speaker 3: With no lips, black hair too.
Speaker 2: It changes. It's the weirdest thing. Yeah, And that's what
it seems like that they are in this kind of
you know, subconscious imaginal space, confabulating, you know, this story
rather than them actually telling you a direct interpretation, like
you might be going to the grocery store yesterday and
what the cashier was like you served you. This seems
to be transforming from into very different shapes as under hypnosis,
Barney's recalling what he saw.
Speaker 3: How was Communion seen when it came out from all
the people who read the book, because the book's a
lot more about hidden memories and conflating bad childhood experiences
that are secretly masked as possible alien abductions if you
look at it from this way, I mean, I know
Wakin wasn't well received by the original author, right.
Speaker 2: You know what, I don't know if you might be right,
I'm not. I probably knew once and I've forgotten what
Streeper's interpretation of having walk and plain. I still think
it was genius casting because Walkin has his genuine intensity.
And of course, you know, when you're making a feel
and when you're adapting from original material, it's very different
to to convey a story visually as it is on
the written page. And I think A Communion did a
very good job of perhaps capturing the tone of the
weirdness and some of the terror that Whitley was feeling
through those early experiences. I think Community is a really
strong movie. I mean, I think it's.
Speaker 3: Flew while I watched it.
Speaker 2: By the way, you might have mess you up more,
particularly if you were taken like Medica was sick.
Speaker 3: Well, because we talked about doing the show a couple
of weeks ago and Emily was sick and I was
getting sick, and I was like, let's just well, I'm
just gonna run a bunch of movies and we'll see.
We'll see how this this myth keeps escalating. And in
that one they actually mentioned Darrow like creatures. There's a
Russian friend that Wakin has and he goes, I remember
seeing these these creatures in these caves and they would
abduct humans every so off and walk and goes, what
are you crazy? Like. Wakin's like, no, my thing's all good.
Your Thing's absolutely bonkers. I'm not buying that.
Speaker 2: You know, I have to rewatch it because I forgot that.
But I know later in the several books at Whitley's
written about his experiences, he starts to suggest that these
things are like fairy or like you know, underground beings.
From the part he doesn't probably I don't know if
he ever makes the Darrow comparison, but he certainly makes
the folkloreic comparison to creatures that have traditionally lived on
the planet in the subterranean context, whether it's fairies or
no so goblins or whatever.
Speaker 3: There's a YouTuber put out a really good video called
the abduct The Abduction of Jacob Jacobson, which is an
old I think it's an old German tale in nord
Norwegian tail, but it's about a guy who went across
a lake and he went to go get food for
his family, and he was a twenty something and he
saw a road that just was not supposed to be there.
He knew there was not a road there, and there
was a big red mansion and he goes in and
there's all these tall creatures that look like humans. There's
all these humanoids, small people, and they ask him to
eat their food and live with them and go traveling
with them, and when he says no, they say, you're
a disgusting man, and I don't like your mouth. And
he wakes up two days later and the road's gone
and the cottage is gone, and it's it's super weird.
But it's just another piece of that lore. I have
a family member who's really he had never told me
about this, and I'm not gonna explain who it is,
but he out of nowhere one day was like, oh, yeah,
you know, I your grandparents saw the phoenix lights and
there's there's a little this in that here that that
is true. And he really has tried to convince me
that it's all just through the lens of the viewer,
the same way communion was adapted to be a little
more goofy and simple to a person who doesn't like
youfo stuff. You know, you want your kids to understand it,
the same way that's happening. It's when we see a
gray or He says that he's met people who've seen sasquatches.
You have to be a certain kind of person, it seems.
It has to be the wind hits you the certain
right kind of way. And just these two universes cross over.
We don't know if it's extra dimensional, we don't know
exactly what, but there's something magic about that. And I
like that he keeps it. He keeps his beliefs in
this stuff just out of reach of understandability, and Shaver
and Palmer talked about that too, which they did, like
a universe just to the left, and every so often
we bump into something it's not supposed to be there,
and that keeps it a lot more mysterious than these
beings from Mars came down and you get my point.
Speaker 2: I totally get your point, and I agree with that point.
I think that whatever the other is that we have
these experiences or encounters with, I think we're bringing something
to that encounter, just like the individual you were talking
about says, And a number of people have made those
same suggestions. Obviously Palmer made it an awful lot. John Keele,
Jacques Vlais probably popularized it. Greg Bishop wrote a very
good piece in a book by the late Robbie Grame.
Robbie Graham edited it called UFOs, reframing the debate by
the way Robbie Grain the late Robbie gram also wrote
a book What's it called the have it on my
bookshelf over there. I meant to pull it out before
the show called I think it's like sources of the
silver screen or something, and it's about what we're talking
about tonight, about that interconnectedness between between UFO UFOs in
the skies and UFOs on the screen, and potential involvement
with you know, intelligence agencies manipulating you know, Hollywood narratives
and things, and those those ideas are fairly popular. I'm
not sure how much I believe the idea that those
movies were all crafted by you know, I don't know
representatives of m J twelve or the CIA trying to
you know, throw people off. But certainly there's a long
history of military and civilian intelligence agencies having deals with
Hollywood where and the media in general to shape, you know,
narratives and to shape talking points. And Disney was clearly
a propagandist for you know, and not necessarily in a
bad way, but he was clearly a propagandist, as most
of the studios were for America during you know, World
War Two and into the Cold War often. So the
idea that there isn't an interconnectedness between Hollywood productions and
intelligence agencies, I mean there clearly is, But whether that
you know, has whether that stretched over and had a
massive immpact on the way Hollywood was talking and still
talks about UFOs. What I will say is interesting is
Steven Spielberg's disclosure day is coming up Broth this June.
It's being released and it's clearly, you know, highly anticipated.
What's the gosh, what's the name of the big I've
watched it, the big disclosure documentary that came out recently.
Speaker 3: I haven't heard about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's on Amazon and it's accessible. I paid
to rented as soon as it dropped. Anyway, it's called
Disclosure something. Interestingly, that's a documentary. Spielberg's is obviously another
close Encounters of the third kind type cognizant of you know,
today's terminology and you know, the idea year of disclosure
upon us and everything else. Age of Disclosure is the
name of the documentary. The director of Age of Disclosure
has been a producer of Steven Spielberg's before he produced
Ready Player one. So it's interesting that this is me
putting on my tinfoil hat momentarily, which I don't try
to do too often, but the conspiratorial tinfoil hat on.
It's interesting that we have the biggest UFO documentary probably
of the last several years, by called you know, the
Age of Disclosure, by the producer of you know, a
recent Spielberg film, and that drops, and then a year
later Spielberg's disclosure date, the fictionalized version or maybe not
so fictionalized version drops. So I can see why these
stories start to revolve about control narratives, you know, and
everything else.
Speaker 3: I just think UFO fever catches people to every couple
of years, I leave and come back. I did, I
tell you remember we met Scott and Steve, Scott Schaeffer
and Steve Edmonston the producer and director, director and producer
at More Island.
Speaker 2: But your good friends with those guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was his intern for years. That's what got
me into doing a Christmin story is because he said
it was too stupid to put on film. He's like,
there's no way anyone's gonna believe any of that. He
didn't say it that way. He said, there's Chrispin's the
least credible figure in the movie, which made it funnier
to me to make him the most credible figure. He.
I interviewed Scott and Steve together for this Chrispin documentary
I've been starting up. We'll talk about this before. I
interviewed them together and then separately, and Scott told me,
and I didn't know this, he did a documentary show
in the eighties. It wasn't so.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to watch it. There was even a
CD rom you could buy, which I bought back in
the day, which you could like it only start and
pretend you were going down the rabbit Hole Investigation. I
was a big fan of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta see if that's on streaming. If not,
I'll rent it. Scott was also the field director on
Penn and Teller's their their show BS.
Speaker 2: I love that show. I did not an episode what
sorry what episode.
Speaker 3: The Circumcision one, and he did the End of the
World one. He interviewed the guy in Canada with the
underground school buses.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Scott's one of the only people that you can
hear his voice in some of them.
Speaker 2: And I did not know that. I knew he did,
but I didn't know. I didn't know that he did
pen till a BS. I love both of those shows.
Speaker 3: I love pretty closely on Almost Live and then they
worked on building The Science Guy together. Pat, I think
as for him exclusively at one point was like I
want Scott on this and that that turned into me
meeting Pat and telling him, Hey, Scott and I worked
on this thing. Would you want to do it? But
so I worked with Travis Walton. He met those guys
and they were in a SnowCat going to the location
of the abduction, and he said that I wasn't sure
any of this was real till like Travis Walton started
shaking and his friends put their hands on him and
there it's okay. It's okay. And if you've ever seen
there's a new Travis Walton documentary that came out in
the last ten years. I think someone filmed it on
their phone. But there's a new one. And they just
don't seem like the kind of guys are going to
hug each other and say everything's cool.
Speaker 2: You know. Funnily enough, I have a blue ray that
he that I haven't watched yet. I need to watch it.
Speaker 3: I started it. I need to finish it. It was
It's given me good pointers on what to do and
what not to do. Now I'm going to meet Adam
go Rightley, who's currently writing a Fred Cristman.
Speaker 2: Book, Get Out of Town. You know, I've never I've
never met Adam. Say hello to him. For me. I'm
a big fan his book. What is it? It's it
just became documentary what is it? Sources spooks and kooks
or some what's it? There's a document something like that? Right?
The books? Right, I've got other Adam go Rightly books
on my bookshelf. Fascinating human being. Yeah, that's great meeting him.
Speaker 3: Fantastic, granianly, deep researcher. He's Sometimes he would just be like, Hey,
is this Chrismin at a convention? And I'm like, why
is Chrismin at a convention? Yeah? It is. I was
lucky enough that he he would ask questions to me,
and then I would relay him to Fred's son. I'm
very fortunate to have met Fred's son out of nowhere,
who not only appreciated that I was making fun of
his dad to some degree, but was like, I said,
I want to open source all this information to people.
And he gave me the Crispin's book Murder of a City,
and I transcribed it line for line, and then we're
gonna We're going to publish it one of these days,
put another version out. I I also found out recently
Murder of a City that book was out for one
hundred dollars, and I said, that's too expensive. I could
find it at a local bookstore. Next time I found it,
auction site put it up for seven hundred dollars, and
then I realized, I'm gonna sound a little egotistical here.
This is my fault. I made a movie that and
the movie, you know, it did well in festivals. I
didn't know you could do two years by the way.
I did one one year run. I made thirteen festivals,
which is enough for me. Yeah, that's a good run,
good number, and it did Okay, I didn't you know,
I've known a millionaire off these things. But it was
nice to get it out there, and I'm very fortunate
to be part of all that.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a fantastic film. I mean, it's incredible. It
does to have that run Big Raven.
Speaker 3: It ended up on his Wikipedia page and then that
up the value of the book. But the thing is,
not enough people know about Chrismin. So what I did
is I essentially spent a bunch of money making a
movie that drove the price of the book up. And
I'm the only person who's going to buy the book.
Speaker 2: You know, if I've seen that book, I've tried to
buy that book. If I'd seen it for a hundred bucks,
I would have bought it. I think Doug Skinne. I
don't know if Doug skin has sent me a PDF
of it, yet, a wonderful human being who runs John
Keel dot com, I know he had a pdf. I'm
trying he might have sent it to me. I might
have a PDF of it, but I.
Speaker 3: Put one up a couple of years ago. I went
to the I went and found one a copy of
it and made a PDF, and then I went and
retyped it, including all the spelling errors, and that took
a summer to do. I just basically copied it out
and I'm still not quite sure what I read. Is
that weird to say it was like a homework assignment
after someone. It's such a character he had. He wrote,
like stan Lee.
Speaker 2: I need to read it because I haven't, but I
do need to read it.
Speaker 3: It's weird. It's on archive dot org. There's a there's
a phone scan, and then there's a retranscription of the
whole thing.
Speaker 2: I was good that you did that, man.
Speaker 3: It's just people. I bought a couple of documents off
someone regarding chrismin and they were they were worth getting.
But it's people deserve this information. It should just be
out for free. Same with the Phil Hartman thing. I
understand that it's lost media, but it got released. Most
of it got released as an album, and a lot
of that material that I got to pledge was the
funniest is going to go out as a ten minute
short next year. And that's all the fortune of doing
the Christmin thing and talking to you. And it's important
that you know these voices get shared with people.
Speaker 2: I hope we have it at Midwest Weedfest.
Speaker 3: Oh would you put it up?
Speaker 2: Of course it's timely Midwest Weeddfest stylings.
Speaker 3: I want to go. I have this fantasy in my head.
We're fostering diabetic cats right now. So once that's all over,
I would like to, uh go to one the Midfest
weird fast. I want to like, I want to like
sleep in your backyard and like bring equipment. Man, you
should go out making movies.
Speaker 2: You you should come. I actually I have to stay
in the hotel during Midwest wed Fest because I'm so
far away. But if you gave me your heads up,
I know somebody, a very lovely human being who would
probably put you up in Eau Claire, within walking distance
of the of the festival. That would be nice. Yeah,
and if you have a blast. I mean the festival
has grown and grown and grown like it's it's the
sold out session after sold session now and dozens and
dozens of filmmakers. You'd have a really fun time if
you came in Midwest wed Fest.
Speaker 3: You you told me you should really fly, and I
was like, it's like a week away. I don't think
I can do it. I got I got a job
at Croger to take care of I find out I
went an a ward and I'm not there to get it.
Speaker 2: Well, there's always it's only gotten bigger since we had
When did we We had you? Like two years ago? Three?
Speaker 3: I'm playing fast. Gosh what it feels like. I just
saw you like two weeks ago, and that was like
that was like right before I started dating the Lady
of Daton. Now it was like, so that was two
years ago?
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well yeah, I last I saw the last
we're up to episode one hundred and ninety one. Now,
oh that's the the the untold radio numbering. The show's
much older than that, with probably one hundred plus episodes before.
But the last show you were on was one hundred
episode one hundred and nineteen. Wow. And then I don't
know if that might even have been after you and
I got to hang out some at the Man in
Black festival when my sol.
Speaker 3: We did pretty quickly after I think.
Speaker 2: That would be the one, but that you know what,
that was two years ago, this summer.
Speaker 3: Yes, two years ago, this two years ago.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: That was a good summer. That was fun. And then
and then I tried to he goes to reshoot my
segment with good cameras and you're too busy. You went
to Moray Island though right.
Speaker 2: We were there. I mean I would have you know
what we could have, but you know, your stuff that
we shot remotely I think looked great anyway we could
have we who do we shoot there? We shot obviously,
we shot Steve from the Men in Black?
Speaker 3: Who did we interview?
Speaker 2: We shot? We shot Adam and Surfile from from Yeah,
Curphil's coming to the what's the name of this show?
Speaker 3: He took me to the video store, Scarecrow Video, which
is right up the street from me.
Speaker 2: Oh nice, great guy, Adam says, a great guy. And
Stevenson's great, fantastic.
Speaker 3: And he's gonna come with us when we go see
Adam greatly.
Speaker 2: That well, of course he'd want to do that. Who
wouldn't want to go? See go? Rightly? I wish I
could taggle on that one.
Speaker 3: And since then, I've upgraded the cannon equipment. So if
Kennon wants to give me some free lenses, that'd be fantastic.
Speaker 2: It is it, yeah series lens.
Speaker 3: This one is I've I've got a really nice The
one I've been using for all my press stuff has
been one hundred millimeter F two and it's from like
nineteen seventy nine and it's got to be to our adapter.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: And it's one of my favorite things in the world.
And since we foster cats, one of the jobs we
have now is I take pictures of the cats and
we put them on the website with the fancy camera.
Speaker 2: That is. I think one of the most important things
about when you're filming anything is the lens more than
the camera. Like people get so obsessed with the camera,
but the lens is what. You can have the greatest
camera in the world and the crappy lens and it's
gonna look like nonsense. So the lens is more important.
I think. Really, I think we.
Speaker 3: Film me on an anamorphic I'm pretty sure I had
an anamorphic phone lens when you interviewed me.
Speaker 2: It's still looked good because you had the nice lighting
behind you and you know anything else. There's no reason
when we hang out again, because I'm this, gosh, this
feature has taken me so long. This we're going into
like I think year four now or something now. Admittably,
I have an awful lot of stuff. I'm super happy
with it. But there's a few key interviews I don't
have yet. I have to do another trip out west
to the West Coast. I don't think I'm going to Washington, though,
I think that's LA in San Francisco this year.
Speaker 3: It feels good building that together, though there's people who
have said no to me that I've come back around.
I met, I've met Harold Dolls. I believe his great
niece well. But the problem is the longer you take,
the closer you get to fight in the undertaker on
half of these people.
Speaker 2: That's the problem with Shave a partner Chrismins. So many
of those original not even not even the original participants,
not even that, I mean Shaver and Palm are both
being gone from the mid to you know, well the
mid seventies, Chris, when did Christmin go.
Speaker 3: Chrismin died like seven, like the year The Muppet Show
came out.
Speaker 2: That's the same thing. They all went in that period.
And then you've got some of their kind of like
some of their associates that are amazing or elsewhere that
live for you know, another decade or two. But it's
so hard now. I'm grateful that I've met in the
course of this a number of people who personally knew
Shavron Palmer, and it's a blessing when you meet them.
But you're very conscious of the fact that if, like
if I made this movie in ten years time, there
would be nobody left whoever shook their hand.
Speaker 3: There's a sick party that's half excited that you get
to put it in memory of because you're like, oh,
this will be so emotional, But then the other part goes,
I want them to see the movie. They so much
work into it too, they deserve. Yeah, that is a
regret of mine. As you know, Phil Hartman's brothers they're
around their eighties, and Fred Chrisman's son is in his
mid sixties. He's in great health and he's got a lot,
but you know, his dad smoked a pack and a
half a day in his fifties. My mom died in
her fifties. My dad's, you know, not doing so well
in his sixties. But age is so relative, and you
just want to get all this stuff done while there's
still time, because you want them to be happy too.
They contribute so much, but you never know what's going
to happen. So maybe we both need to we need
to just merge it into one movie.
Speaker 2: There you go. We do have a question I missed
from Horace again that I would like to address because
it's a great question and a great point, and that's
a Donald Keyhoe book is credited with suggesting the movie
Earth Versus the Flying Sauces, and he says, with great
Harry Housen Saurces, they are great the special effects in
that movie from the nineteen fifties. Any shave of connection
with Keyhoe, Well, there's certainly a Palmer connection with Keyho
the great and and and then I'll throw it to you, Brian,
the great Palmer connection with Keyho, with is we with
Keyhose Organization NICAP, the National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomenon
and that is that when Palmer was running Flying Sources magazine,
which for almost a decade was the only newsstand magazine
dedicated to flying sources in America. And Palmer was in
many ways one of the most important people, maybe the
most important person in the Flying source of field, although
he's been written out of the history. Now Keyhose organization
Nicap at the same time ran some little newsletter and
Keyho's organization was very reluctant to talk about any reports
where people said they had contact with the alien beings
in the sources. Now, Keyho and Nightcap always were pushing
the theory that the flying sources were extraterrestrial from other planets,
so that it wasn't that they didn't be they were alien.
They just thought it was disrespectable to accept that people
were actually having contacts with the pilots. So they hated
all of the contactees. They just dismissed Georgia Damski, and
you know, just keep going from there onwards. But there
was a case in Wisconsin, which actually the anniversary of
it was just the last weekend, and that's when supposedly
a flying sauce of land a near Eagle River not
too far from me, and the occupants got out and
spoke to a farmer, Joe Simonton, and wanted him to
give them water to pancakes with. They all like that.
I don't know if they spoke to him telepathically or
through hand signals off through both, but they didn't talk
verbally anyway. Simonton gave them the water. They baked these pancakes,
and they left some of the pancakes and returned for
the water with Joe before they took off. Now, a
local judge who knew Joe and believed his story also
happened to be member of Nicap Kio's organization, and he
sent some of the flap chap or the pancake whatever
it was to to Nightcap, who completely essentially dismissed it
the story. The judge was super unhappy. He contacted Ray Palmer,
who was running Flying Sources magazine out of Wisconsin, not
that far away from him, and this massive feud and
I don't think I already think there wasn't a whole
lot of you know, love loss between Palm and Nightcap,
but it just exploded on the on the front covers
of I've Got the Issue that I've Got these Nightcap
like you know is nightcap like you know. It essentially
says it's an Air Force or a CIA front. The
article I.
Speaker 3: Think I'm dreaming everything you're saying. Yeah, I think I
fell asleep an hour ago.
Speaker 2: It's a crazy story anyway. That's that's the massive Palma
Nightcap connection. In other words, Keho connection, and it's it's
a pretty big connection. It was the major feud in
mid del eight sixties uphology between between Ray Palmer, who
represented a very more relaxed view of euthology, very much
open to different interpretations, including spiritual ones, including contactees stories
to Nycap, who thought it was all nuts and bolts
and that the Air Force already knew the secrets and
they wanted to operate like a lobby group in you know, Washington.
There was a major schism which has been essentially written
out of the history books because nobody likes talking about
Ray Palmer anymore. But Flapjacks, big deal. Yeah, Well, you know,
in this in.
Speaker 3: This magical world, this this multiversal theory we have which
Marvel has somehow I think Rick and Morty and Marvel
have somehow ruined those terms. Just the idea that you
can flip channels, and sometimes they blend together. I guess
there's got to be a world out there somewhere where
the gray aliens are flapjacks. Do you ever think about
the More Island incident, Like when the UFO is shooting
all that debris, Do you ever wonder if it's a
chemical toilet? Or do you ever wonder if like, do
you ever wonder if we get the smart alien? Do
you think we get the aliens who they're like, this
is gonna take him like two years to fly out there.
Let's let's send Steve and Mikey over. Okay, we're gonna
go tark. I always wonder things like that, or the
Betty and Barney Hill thing, like, yeah, you can take
the book. They gave her a book and she It's
one of the most emotional things I've heard is her
screaming in that that hypnotherapy session. She goes, no, it's
all I have, It's all this proof. But the idea
that an alien would be like, no, yeah, you can
take that. What are you talking about? You can take that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? The the change in the decision to let it
take the book, of course, that fits in with fairy
law in fairy law people always almost got the artifact
which would prove they'd been in fairyland, and it was
always snatched from them or turned into you know, dust
when they walked out of the fairy hill, or turning
them manu or leaves or something. So it very much
fits our ongoing connection with the other that supposedly the
first American abductee, the first couple who launched everything we
really think about alien induction to this day, almost had
the smoking guard and then the aliens changed their mind.
Now you know you can have it. No, no, you can't.
It's so much a part of that.
Speaker 3: That patiently be the one to make this all possible
for everyone to fact check the So I was listening
to an interview you did you talk to someone whose
house was haunted? And I don't remember who this is
And I feel like a jerk even bringing this up,
But have you ever had someone on who is a
Bigfoot habituator or someone who lived with Bigfoot or an
alien or anything like that where You're like, I could
double check this if I had an hour.
Speaker 2: I mean I tend to. I mean, I think, as
anybody who listens to this show knows, I'm fairly skeptical.
Not in the sense that I debunk things, because I
never do. But I always suspect that the phenomenon itself,
or our imagination is engaged with whatever this is, is
filled with fantasy and lies, so I'm never sure whatever
anybody's actually seeing. I'm not sure if I've ever had
anybody on the show that I've thought they're lying to me.
I consistently think the phenomenon's lying to us it like
as anybody who listens regularly to the show. I probably, well, well,
I don't say it all the time, but I probably
used the analogy at least half a dozen times. If
you're a little kid and you're playing in your front
yard and a creeper van pulls out the front and
a man dressed as a harlequin or a clown leads
out the window and says, hey, kid, my name's Funbo
the clown. I'm going to Disneyland for the greatest party ever,
and I've got kiddies and candy and puppies in the back.
Jump on in, kid, let's go to Disneyland. If you
trust Funbo as a kid and jump into that van,
you're going to be in all kinds of trouble. The
problem is we, while we realize and hopefully most of
our parents taught us about stranger danger, we don't live
in a culture which tells us to be cognizant that
when we have an encounter with the other, with the strange,
that it might really be what it is, and our
senses might be telling us lies, or it might be
telling us lies or both. Traditionally, many cultures taught us
to beware what the other told us. Fairy faith in
Ireland is a classic example. Fairy faith told us the
fairies had something called glamour right and that they would
essentially trick us into seeing what they we wanted to see.
So you could go to the hall of the fairy King,
which looked magnificent and marvelous, and all of these beautiful
fairy maidens were dancing around you, and you were served
this incredible banquet of amazing fairy food, while in reality
you were in a dank cave with all these ugly
old crones and you were eating a pile of manure.
I mean, that's literally an example from fairy faith. You
were constantly taught. If you're in Ireland, even fifty maybe
one hundred. Certainly two hundred years ago, if you hadn't
encounter with the with the fair folk, you knew not
to believe what you saw. But today, if I'm driving
home late at night on a dark country road and
I see what looks like some strange light land in
a field, and then it's a metallic craft and little
men get out, and you know, I instantly think I've
just seen ET's Land, you know, from another planet. But
if I was in Ireland two hundred years ago, I
would have been cognizant of what I was seeing might
not be what I was seeing. So what I'm saying is,
while I don't necessarily doubt the person telling me their story,
I doubt their story and the capacity that I'm not
sure that whenever anybody has an encounter with the other
that what they're seeing is really what it is. And
I don't know what the mechanism is that makes them.
Maybe it might be their own senses trick them. It
might be that they're somehow building this story with the
phenomenon and they're feeding into it what they expect. It
might be that the phenomenon is just project nonsense at them.
But my problem normally is that I, well, I'm respectful
and I want to hear people's stories. I often do think.
I wonder how much of this is fabrication, not intentional
fabrication from them, but the phenomenon itself and ow interaction
with it causing this type of phantasm, this type of
you know, false imagery, false experience.
Speaker 3: That's super interesting. Ah, I'm really all about the idea
of just perception and that we were never going to
actually know what we're seeing. And I wonder how much
of that do you remember? There's a famous UFO story
of the aliens were parked outside on a road repairing
the ship like they were repairing a car, like as
if someone else wouldn't just pull up and see that
at some point.
Speaker 2: Well, I've heard I don't know if I've heard that
exact one. I've certainly heard ones like it. And I
think the phenomenon wants to be seen. It wants to
present to us whatever it wants to present to us,
or whatever we want to experience. Like if you read,
if you read so many of the early big Foot
books by people like John Green and Peter Burn and
all those original you know Bigfoot researchers. They all tend
to suggest that this is a you know, a creature
of the woods that doesn't want to be discovered and
as careful around, you know, humans not to be seen.
The amount of stories even in their own books, of
things banging on windows and running in front of cars
on freeways, like it's clear that whatever this is, whether
it's a UFO or a bigfoot, or a ghost or
a fairy, these things constantly intentionally push themselves into our reality.
Speaker 3: They're kind of like homeless people. Ever, maybe to hear
me outside, don't sound too crazy, and Seattle's got a
big homeless problem. We can get into all the specifics,
but what it is is we're trained as a society
to ignore homeless people because you'd never know if they
need something that you can't give them, or they're violent.
I've seen them go to Starbucks and demand to sy
Howard Schultz, like what are you gonna do? And because
of that, it creates this ripple effect where people who
are ignored by society act out. And I mean we
see that in many forms in society, but when you're
homeless in particular, you really do feel like you're invisible,
like you're dead and you're a ghost and people are
passing by, So I imagine I've seen homeless people shout
that they're real or like, listen to me, and that
does have to psychological. I think it's a black mirror
about this that would psychologically torment you, and that must
it does feel that way like the sand down clown,
remember you're talking about. Yeah, I just got into that one.
I'm really fascinated with that because it just sounds like
they encountered a weird homeless guy. But they specifically go
in to a tartist like structure and he they ask
him if he's a ghost, and he goes no, but
I am in an odd sort of way. And the
way he speaks sounds exactly like how people talk to
me in dreams. But also it shares all that same
abduction lore of this. This weirdo who looks different invites
you to his house and it's not quite right, and
it's interesting it fits all that same stuff, but it's
a different shape and a different texture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think those ones that seem different to the
way were you used to encountering the other somehow, and
I'm not sure how we get to it, but they
might somehow offer us more of a potential way to
understand this. Do you know, If I'm not you probably
you probably have heard about it. Do you know the
cow he An abduction story.
Speaker 3: No, tell me about it.
Speaker 2: I won't go into the full details because we could
talk about it for the whole night. There's like, I
think he's out hunting or something and he has this
ridiculous encounter with this super strange being which he kind
of gets abducted in this I think like see through
like cube, and he gets taken away to this super
weird reality. He goes missing. In many ways, it's far
more interesting than the Travis Walton story and in fact
a great way to watch an over I mean, you
can read it in a lot of the book. I
think it happened in the sixties, so it's a book
that or maybe in the early seventies, so it's in
a lot of those older UFO books. But a wonderful
place to watch that story if you just want to
absorb it quickly, is in David Polide's Missing for One
one the UFO connection. I think it's called the third
Missing four one one documentary. Incidentally, I just watched the
fourth Missing four one one documentary. The other day and
enjoy it. I love all those documentaries, but I think
in many ways the Missing for one one the UFO connection,
is the most interesting, and it has that and Polides
takes that story very, very seriously. It's often dismissed because
it's so weird. But I tend to be like John Keel.
I mean, I'm not saying I'm at a John Keell level,
but I tend to approach things the way Keel and
Valad did, and they often saw those stranger stories perhaps
holding more clues or more insight for us. And so
when you hear something like the Carl Higdon story about
this hunter getting abducted and missing, and I think there
was actually I think people looked for him for it's
a very strange story. Anyway, again, I think far more
interesting than the Travis Walton story. But yeah, I think
if you diget you should, and in fact, you should
watch Missing four one one in the UFO Connection. I
think that's what it's called. It's the UFO Missing four
one one UFO something. I think it's the UFO connection.
I think that's what it's called. It's a good documentary, fascinating.
Speaker 3: Is it better than Fire?
Speaker 2: In this guy with the fire in the scribes a
great horror movie, that sequence of him waking up and
having that, you know, the Transparaine over space and it's terrifying, and.
Speaker 3: None of it's what Travis Walton said it was.
Speaker 2: No history. History has like these you know, space brothers
in it, these beautiful blonde people as well as Gray
ET's and looking through star windows and wandering around the spaceship.
Speaker 3: It's not like waking up Anger of Ships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, waking up in Et you know Texas Chainsaw massacre version,
like these potato headed beings, you know, torturing you on
a table, like, Yeah, it's a very different story.
Speaker 3: I like actually and that one in Communion, they both
say that the Gray Aliens are wearing masks, which I
think we're weird.
Speaker 2: I think, I think, I think, I don't know that's
true literally, Like I know a lot of people like
to say, well, they might be in space suits or something.
But I think it's true. I think it's true metaphorically
or metaphysically. I think what we're, what they're what what
any of these things present themselves to us? As I
think that is a mask. I think there might be
so And this is me totally spitballing. I think there
might be some genuine intelligence separate to us. But I
think when it engages with us for whatever reason, maybe
it just presents. Maybe it's just like a mirror reflects
back to us what we see. Well, maybe it's more
sophisticated than that. Maybe it, you know, maybe it no
understands our culture and understands, you know, our psychees and
invents its own way of presenting. However it works. I
do think that what we're seeing most of the time
is it what the phenomenon actually looks like. Again, whether
it's big Foot or UFOs or ghosts or fairies or whatever,
I think whatever it looks like is not what we're seeing.
Speaker 3: I really like that that Patterson Gimblan documentary is coming out.
I don't you might be more in the loop on
this than I am. But they were talking about how, yeah,
I'm excited that there may be footage of them putting
on the big Foot suit and the fact that people
are already shouting that it's not real. It's interesting. It's
got this weird Tyler Durden ess or like in Life
of Brian, where it's like you are all individuals like
there's nothing you can do now that you've you've created
this bigfoot video, and the details of the Patterson Gimlin
footage is so interesting. We've made a big foot costume.
I rented this camera. I forgot to return it, and
I still don't know how to operate it after a
couple of weeks. But also, there's bigfoot over there, and
he has a stride like a guy I've been confirmed
to know. Yeah, Boberonymous. I know someone who knows Bob Ranymous,
which is weird, and that's not related to anyone we know,
just like it's weird.
Speaker 2: But to be honest, I think Bobberonymous is telling the truth.
I mean personally, I think Bobberonymous is the man in
that suit. And I thought that for decades. I mean
when I was a kid, I thought Patterson Gimblin was
real because I'd say, like in search of and all
these early months to movie and was all excited. But
if I if I had a billion dollars now and
could double it on a bet, I would bet. I'm
confident enough that I would risk that billion dollars to
bet that the footage was was Boperonymous in a.
Speaker 3: Suit depends on the day and what music is playing
that I see that footage and he turned like Patty
turns back, and I believe it. I So many people
I know are like, it's obviously a guy in a suit,
and it's funny that it's taken this long. But the
weird stuff about that footage is that the originals lost there.
The copy that exists that everyone, the scan that we
have currently was auctioned off in the drawer of a
filing cabinet from you know that that they sold to
a company. It's so weird. Is Bob Gibblon the one
who's still around?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Bob, Bob Gibblan is still in alive. Supposedly in
that documentary we're talking about. Supposedly he's one of the
people who kind of of you know now says it
was a hoax. I haven't seen the documentary. Yes, supposedly
that's what that's what people have seen it have said.
Who saw it? South By south By Southwest?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, you're more into the film festival group than
I am. I've been hearing about it, but I remember,
haven't There been two or three people who before they
died said that they were the Bigfoot in the Bigfoot series.
Speaker 2: I think so. I know Eronymous has been saying it
for decades now. And I remember some documentary or TV show,
like literally well over a decade ago, where it shows
the Paddy footage and then it shows Bob Iranum walking
and astride. It's like, that's Paddy. You go to that,
and the fact that he knew them, and the fact
it just seems and it's as they got older too
and looked at that, people say things like you can
see the muscle structure underneath him. I've never been maybe
I'm blind or I don't understand biology. Well, whenever I've
looked at that, I've never seen the things that experts
who believe in Bigfoot tell me. There you can see
the thigh, I muscle moving. I'm like, that's just I
don't know, Maybe that's patting a lot reflecting like it.
I've never I've literally long before this documentary which I
can't wait to see. Maybe maybe it's a total hoax,
the new documentary. But my point is, for decades I
have been unconvinced by that footage.
Speaker 3: See, I want it to be real so bad.
Speaker 2: I want it to be real too. But I know
it's not so no, I can't say I suspect.
Speaker 3: It, but it's so fascinating to me that, let's be honest,
if it wasn't Bigfoot, if it was a big squid
monster flopping around, the odds are so in the favor
of it not being a squid monster. The odds are,
you know, ninety nine to one that it wouldn't be real.
It's so interesting to me that now that you add
forty fifty years and then you have this group of
people who look at it, they look at a video
of them putting the suit on and they go, well,
that's a I that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I Actually I was fooling around with some AI stuff
trying to get I was trying to make Patty fall over,
like the footage turns around majestically right into and it
kept turning Patty into a gorilla, and so I couldn't.
I couldn't. Now, I haven't used every AI program in
the world, and I don't have this that kind of
access beyond consumer grade toys. But the fact that you
can do that makes me think it's not quite time
for that footage to be one hundred percent fake. But
that people believe that it's fake already is so interesting
they haven't even seen it.
Speaker 2: Well, because I think, I mean, I think it's cognitive dissonance.
I think it's when the facts hit your blissdom, you
double down even when that film comes out. I would.
I mean, I'm guessing I think the the people who
still believe that Patty patterson Gimlin footage is actually of
a Sasquatch. I suspect at least fifty percent of those people,
even after this film comes out, will still double down
that it's that it's a Sasquatch. Maybe more. And I
mean maybe that's why me showing my own cognitive dissonance
because I thought it was fake forever. So as soon
as the evidence comes along and says it's fake, I'm like, well,
obviously it was fake. I mean, right, you know, I
don't know. I mean, I really want to see that.
I'm super excited about this documentary, like I really am.
Speaker 3: They did a Doctor Who a couple of years ago,
the new hyperwoke Doctor Who. There's some really good ones
in there. I'm not anti progressive, I really they did
one that's an interesting subject matter, where these guys pretend
to be a UFO podcast, and they get this group
together and then they try to get the doctor on
camera to confirm that aliens are not real, like you've
always been a hoaster, You've always and in modern politics,
that's very true, like the idea that we spent all
this time going, there's those croaking toads on the side
going UFOs were never real and it's always been And
then the government goes, well, maybe the tic TACs are real,
and maybe this footage comes from here, and then suddenly
new croaking tones come out and go, UFOs have you know,
they're why does it flip? UFOs have always been real?
And then UFOs were never real? What? Well?
Speaker 2: I think? I mean, I think that the New York
Times article in twenty seventeen that leaked a military video
of you know, the Nimetz carriers pilots engaging with this
you know, tic tac. I think that that was joyfully
adopted by the UFO community. And I think you're right,
people who traditionally hadn't given the UFO phenomenon any credence
because it was a New York Times story started giving
it credence. I suspect I don't know why, but I
suspect that was done very intentionally by forces within our
own government, whether it was intelligence agencies or the military
or and I don't know what the reason is, but
I think that change in the narrative was intentionally crafted
for whatever reason, whether that's because UFOs really are real,
or whether it's because they wanted you know, some wag
the dog, you know, moment, or whether it's because they wanted,
you know, the potential to use this as you know,
as cover for other things. I have no idea why,
but the whole thing felt like a very intentionally planned
leak and roll out. Just the way it was done,
you know, it all seemed very controlled.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting that it's we're talk like I was saying,
the likelihood of Patty being real, the likelihood of there
being a little green man inside a flying object that
we can't determine what it is. It's it's more comforting
to think of it as an alien than it is
like a Russian spy. And even I learned this recently.
My grandfather worked at the Hanford site in the seventies
and he doesn't believe in UFOs at all, but he
was there that summer that all the flying saucer or
not flying saucers. UFOs were over the Hanford site for
no reason, and it was in all the papers. Now
what that actually was is probably far less exciting than
we think it is. But the fact that there's something
in that, there's always a certain amount of controlled push
into the media what it is is what I'm always
fascinated by because we still don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I suspect what the UAP footage is that
everybody's familiar with. Now, I suspect it's our technology. When
I say our technology, I mean the United States of
America's technology. And that probably interests me less as to
why the big push of that story, and again I
don't know why, but why it was channeled the way
it was to turn what essentially since the Conon Committee
pooh pooh UFOs in nineteen sixty nine, they essentially left
respectable conversation. It's not that they didn't become media stories
at the fiftieth anniversary of Roswell or you know, the
X files being a cool thing, or you know, any
of these kind of you know, pop up, you know,
human interest stories, but they never became something which was
instigating congressional hearings. Do you know what I mean? It
was never something that you that The New York Times
was running as a legitimate thing on the front cover.
It wasn't something that was being discussed by whether it
was people in CNN or Tucker Carlson on Fox or whoever.
It became a genuine media circus, which hasn't gone away.
And now the conversation seems to have changed that this
is a respectable topic, and it hadn't been a respectable
topic maybe ever, but certainly since nineteen sixty nine. And
again it looked like it was an engineered release. So
that's what interests me. Again, I think the tic TAC
stuff is probably ours, But why the way it was
handled and pushed the way it was, I don't know.
I don't even want to sumisk because I don't know.
Speaker 3: So you ever notice how some of these are We're
talking about the evolution of this, and they're anachronistic. It's
like it's a lot harder to find Limerians and stuff.
I mean, Lamerians leak their way into every little sub
subgenre of there's people who say they communicate with them telepathically.
There's people, but there's there's different flavors, and they're kind
of flavors of the month, Like the Flatwoods Monster is
probably a dalek from doctor Who's there's so much connection
between those two things. And there's people think it's an
owl and a tree trunk, but that feels so of
its time. What if it turns out that they start trickling, Yes,
these are you, They are actually of another world, like
like it shows up on like the New York Post.
And then finally, what if it turned out they were
the tall Norwegian people with the white hair and they
just look like us. How not interesting would that? Or
the Darrows or something? And you're like, that be fantastic time.
Speaker 2: I imagine how good it would be if we this.
I mean, I don't know how why that would make
me so happy, but it would if all of a
sudden we got like a defense department in a press
conference and they said, Okay, we know these things are
called the darrow and there's also they're the bad ones
in the terror and they come from beneath the surface
of this earth. You know the funny thing. I jest
with that, But the discussion that these things are here
already has become a genuine talking point amongst the people
who were essentially, you know, the main speakers or the
main spokesman for disclosure. This story is coming up a
lot if you look at academic papers from people like
hal Putov, who who kind of took the ultra terrestrial
hypothesis of John Keel and Ivan Sanderson before him, and
essentially wrote a paper, I don't know when it was,
maybe three years ago now saying we have to really
think about these things. Maybe they're you know, they're not
from out there, they're from here, right that, and that
is very much Shaverrism. There was a paper from Harvard
I think two years ago where they said the same thing,
and they talked about different historical antecedents and one of
them was the Shaver mystery. Like Shaver got a paragraph
in this thing from Harvard, not as like, not in
a literary paper, but is in a what are the
where are these things from? And then you get it.
I've heard again and again now like Congress people, you know,
whistleblow as other people say, well, these things are probably
here already. Major speakers in the disclosure movement, Well, maybe
they've got bases beneath the sea. Maybe they've already got
bases on Earth? Who does that? It sounds like Richard
Shaver and Raymond Palmer is who the devil?
Speaker 3: That sounds like picturing Donald Trump on his last day
just gone. They're called the Darrow.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: You see, millions of years ago the Earth had a
giant shell around it. We have evidence of this and
half you need to stop eating food that has been
exposed to the sun. I have negotiated a contract. The
roll Ads will be coming to the consumer market.
Speaker 2: There's there's like a science fiction social political satire to
be made with the US government making a Darrow announcement.
That would be amazing. How good would that be?
Speaker 3: The eloys or you know, they need Canada, So we're
gonna split it up. Need some bug eyed creature from
the Black Lagoon is going to be the new Senator.
That it all comes from somewhere. So it's a funny
thought that it would it would come back like it
would devolve back into the originals.
Speaker 2: Literally. See now, I don't ever think we're going to
get the Darrow announcement, as happy as I would be
if we did. But I think we're getting close to
this story. I mean, the narrative of them already being
here in bases the narrative or in the Halpooto's paper.
Maybe they've always been here. Maybe they've been our gods.
Maybe they're a space fearing civilization that got stranded here.
All of this stuff is very shaveriant, but who knows.
I don't know. Anyway, Man, it's been It's been so
much fun talking to you. I need to get you
on more often to do this.
Speaker 3: It's just I know, I had five ideas and I
had to shoot them all out at once, Matt.
Speaker 2: But it was fun and we went like literally like
forty minutes.
Speaker 3: More than I usually go, and I have another forty
in me.
Speaker 2: I'm sure, mate, we could totally do it. We'll get
you back and talk more recently. Do you want to
direct people towards where they can see any of your
previous films, where they can where they can look at
the upcoming Phil Hartman thing. And by the way, I
don't think it's in the YouTube notes, which have already
gone out, but if you send me any link out
the links you want in the YouTube notes, I do
have your Fred Crisman short film where people can watch
it if they go and look at that. But if
after the show, you send me any of the links
you're giving out now, I will make sure they're in
the show notes that go out on all the podcast
platforms so people will be able to click through to them.
But if people don't want to click through, or they're
too wazy to click through, show throw out some of
rls just for the listeners.
Speaker 3: Fred Cristman dot com uh is where you're going to
find a link to the Fred Christman movie. You can
also look them up on Wikipedia. He's a fantastic source
of craziness. We've got a YouTube. It's Brian Shickley. It's
spelled how you see it on here. I always try
to spell it my own name, right stood guard shocker.
I we're making the English versions. This is done by
a German friend. But this is all ink work that
I've been doing, and it's intentionally it's intentionally hyper vintage.
It's supposed to look like like I have all these
old tales from the crypt comics and been working really
hard to kind of bring back the vintage look. So
here's what I've been doing. This is one about it's
kind of an immigration story. It's kind of a story
about second chances in life. And but the art I've
been having a lot of fun doing bringing bringing pulp back.
If that's if that's the one thing I do before
I die, I'm gonna bring pulp back. And uh, I
got one in particular right here. This is the first
drawing I ever did for This is an alt cover
I did and I got to draw myself being forced
to sweep the floors. And I'm really proud of that. Anyway,
It's really i haven't been published to this degree before,
and I'm really proud of how that art came out.
That's the stud Guard shocker.
Speaker 2: And where do people get that?
Speaker 3: You can look it up Happy Hour, h e pp
y Hour. It's uh my friend using musician and a writer.
He's really really talented. You can see that on Google
if you.
Speaker 2: Look it up. Well, man, I'm gonna get you as
soon as the show finishes to send me a few
U r L links or things that I can that
I can put in the show notes that go out
and all the audio episodes. Man, it was a great
joy talking to you like it always is. Thanks so
much for coming back on the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you for letting me bring a puppet shut.
Speaker 2: Me the puppet one more time. Is he there? Hey,
we can't we can't go. We can't say good night
without the puppet.
Speaker 3: This is called a live hand puppet, meaning I get
to do this.
Speaker 2: Ah nice And what's his name? One more time?
Speaker 3: H Graham Crackers. He's the spokesman for nes Cocaine, Colombia's
biggest selling coffee esque products.
Speaker 2: Well, Graham Crackers, thank you so much for joining me tonight.
And Brian Shickley, A massive thank you to you for
joining tonight. It was a great show and I had
a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: And until I talk to you again, Brian, which hopefully
will be in the very near future, and until I
talk to everybody else out there, which will be the
same weird time, which is Thursday's nine pm Central, every week,
Same weird network, the Untold Radio Network. Please keep it weird.