Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo.
Speaker 2: These guys, are you fav It's so like to say,
Speaker 2: subscribe and raid it live.
Speaker 1: Starck S and.
Speaker 2: Grates on us today listening, Oh watching Lin always keep
Speaker 2: it's watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James
Speaker 2: Bubo Fay. Hello, Bobo, how are you doing today, Sir Cliff?
Speaker 2: Going pretty good? Man, it's going pretty good, beautiful day
Speaker 2: here in the you know, boring Oregon area. And what
Speaker 2: a guest. This is a guest that I've been trying
Speaker 2: to get on for a little while, you know, but
Speaker 2: are scheduling issues and all this other stuff. But now
Speaker 2: is the perfect time because well, this gentleman has a
Speaker 2: book coming out very very soon that it's going to
Speaker 2: blow the socks off of a lot of people. I've
Speaker 2: been helping out with the book a little bit. I
Speaker 2: know about what's in it's and stuff. It's gonna be fantastic.
Speaker 2: But really, let's get right to it. We have not
Speaker 2: a researcher per se, but the son of one of
Speaker 2: the most famous, controversial and active researchers of all time.
Speaker 2: We have mister Michael Freeman, son of Paul Freeman on
Speaker 2: the podcast today, and he has come on because well,
Speaker 2: now he's got a book coming out, and also secondly,
Speaker 2: he's kind of tired of all the misinformation, lies, fabrications
Speaker 2: and rumors swirling about his father and he wants to
Speaker 2: set the record straight. And I'm a big advocate of
Speaker 2: the Freeman and Blue Mountain evidence in general, so I
Speaker 2: jumped at the chance. Michael Freeman, Welcome to Bigfoot and
Speaker 2: Beyond with Cliff and the Bobes. I'm so happy you
Speaker 2: can come on.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I know, you know, Cliff and I we
Speaker 4: talk often, but James, I think we've only spoken once.
Speaker 3: We talked.
Speaker 5: It was we had we had a couple we had
Speaker 5: like a four hour conversations in like a two and
Speaker 5: a half hour conversation.
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, Yeah, I know we spoke at least once.
Speaker 3: We're on the same page.
Speaker 5: Your dad's underappreciated and it's a lot of bum wraps,
Speaker 5: and we're yeah, I'm glad you're setting the record straight
Speaker 5: and took the time to write a book to clear
Speaker 5: his legacy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's the plan, and you know, that's what
Speaker 4: I'm hoping to look to do, because you know, there
Speaker 4: is a lot of misinformation, there's a lot of misunderstanding,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of mystery, and there's a lot of rumor.
Speaker 4: You know that that surrounds my father. Uh And I
Speaker 4: just you know, let me start, I guess by saying
Speaker 4: before we even do anything else here today, it's we
Speaker 4: are in the business of evidence. We are not in
Speaker 4: the business of rumors and hearsay.
Speaker 2: That's a really important point because so much of the
Speaker 2: so many of the reasons that people may not like
Speaker 2: your father's evidence is because they heard so and so
Speaker 2: thinks this about it, you know, and what kind of
Speaker 2: what kind of researching is that? You know, because you know,
Speaker 2: Renee to Hindon kind of went back and forth on
Speaker 2: your dad's evidence for a while, and there were some
Speaker 2: things he was absolutely positive were not real, and people
Speaker 2: Renee didn't think the evidence was real. Well, so, what
Speaker 2: what do you think about the evidence? Or have you
Speaker 2: never seen it? Is the question, because I find a
Speaker 2: lot of these people talking smack about your dad have
Speaker 2: never really spent the time with the evidence, or they
Speaker 2: may have seen one or two casts. And while since
Speaker 2: I did bring up Renee, I want to kind of
Speaker 2: defend Renee in a way. He was a very good researcher.
Speaker 2: He was really meticulous and thoughtful and a lot of
Speaker 2: things he did, but he was also kind of you know,
Speaker 2: we talked a lot of smack about other people. And also,
Speaker 2: and this is the point I want to make, he
Speaker 2: did not have the information about the Sasquatch foot that
Speaker 2: we do today. There's a video on Todd Prescott's excellent
Speaker 2: site of Sasquatch Archives where the shows that Renee de
Speaker 2: Hindin's with a handful of people in his backyard and
Speaker 2: they lay out I think it was the eighty seven trackway.
Speaker 2: I think there were five foot prints in a roof
Speaker 2: the eighty seven trackway, if I remember correctly, and he
Speaker 2: laid them all out, and he just kind of dug
Speaker 2: into him and said, ah, this and that, look at
Speaker 2: the sausage toes. Are you telling me this? And thankfully
Speaker 2: doctor Meldrum jumped on board and wrote an answer to
Speaker 2: every one of the things that Renee the Hinden found
Speaker 2: to be a problem about that trackway. And see what
Speaker 2: it was is Renee didn't know as much as we
Speaker 2: do now about the Sasquatch foot. So his criticisms were
Speaker 2: based on less information. But now that we know so
Speaker 2: much more about the Sasquatch foot and its capabilities and
Speaker 2: flexibilities and all that stuff, what Renee actually was nitpicking
Speaker 2: about are actually reasons to think that they're real. Like
Speaker 2: Renee was always commenting about the sausage toes because they
Speaker 2: look like little sausages. But what he didn't understand is
Speaker 2: that the toes have a lot of what's called dorsive flexion,
Speaker 2: basically flexing upwards. And when if your toes are flexed upwards,
Speaker 2: the only part of the toe that's going to impress
Speaker 2: into the ground are the toe stems, and they're going
Speaker 2: to be pointy at the end, and they don't look
Speaker 2: like toes, but they are. And you can see some
Speaker 2: of these things in those casts, and Renee saw them
Speaker 2: and thought that it was nonsense and fake because of it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I would encourage people out there to
Speaker 2: maybe perhaps form their own opinion instead of relying on
Speaker 2: those who came before us that perhaps don't didn't know
Speaker 2: or don't know as much about Sasquatch footprints as they
Speaker 2: could have. So yeah, rumor versus evidence. Man, Well, anyway,
Speaker 2: so your dad got into this in nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 2: and when he saw one on June tenth, tenth, right,
Speaker 2: it was the tenth or six tenth.
Speaker 4: June, I think nineteen eighty two, correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how old were you at that time?
Speaker 4: I was five years old?
Speaker 2: Five years old. Do you have any recollection of that?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 4: I don't necessarily have any recollection of him talking about
Speaker 4: the siding or Bigfoot, but I have recollection of people.
Speaker 4: And one of the gentlemen we were just discussing, Renee Dehindon,
Speaker 4: is someone that I remember vividly being at our home
Speaker 4: on multiple occasions. I remember him sleeping on our pullout
Speaker 4: sofa bed, and I have real vivid memories of Grover
Speaker 4: Krantz as well, in the cloud of smoke from his
Speaker 4: cigarettes that kind of always surrounded him, kind of like
Speaker 4: pai pin from you know, peanuts in the dust, if
Speaker 4: you imagine Grover. But I was a little too young
Speaker 4: to have I think a lot of real vivid memories
Speaker 4: of what was happening at the time, as far as
Speaker 4: his sighting and him kind of getting in the paper
Speaker 4: and becoming somewhat of a celebrity, you know, or any
Speaker 4: of the problems that he was having with the floor
Speaker 4: service and things like that. I have, I think better
Speaker 4: memories now that I'm older, because I know more information.
Speaker 4: So it seems like I remember a lot, But I
Speaker 4: think a lot of that is stuff that I've learned
Speaker 4: since I got older.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and learned from a variety of sources, or from
Speaker 2: your just the family members, or talking to your dad
Speaker 2: or I guess it's all of those and more.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, all those are more of a variety of sources.
Speaker 4: You know. Obviously, I grew up with Bigfoot, you know,
Speaker 4: from the time I was five, so that was normal
Speaker 4: to me. Heard all the stories. You know, I've been
Speaker 4: out in the field and I've seen tracks and things
Speaker 4: like that. But also, you know, I've been around you know,
Speaker 4: West Summerlin, and I've been in Grover Trance's lab at WSU.
Speaker 4: And then of course as I get older and I
Speaker 4: make all these acquaintances like you guys, you know, and
Speaker 4: other people, I always learn more information because you know,
Speaker 4: not everybody knows everything, and sometimes I learned things that
Speaker 4: are new to me, you know still this week.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, Bigfoot is kind of the gift that keeps
Speaker 2: on given in that sort of way. I would imagine
Speaker 2: and you're and you you're part of like Bigfoot royalties.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people have crossed your family's path
Speaker 2: at one point or another and have interactions with your
Speaker 2: dad or or Wes, you know, or a lot of
Speaker 2: the unsung heroes of the Blue Mountain Evidence. And you know,
Speaker 2: that's something I'd like to bring up and point out,
Speaker 2: is that the Blue Mountain Evidence is very often all
Speaker 2: just referred to as a whole as the Freeman evidence.
Speaker 2: But that's not really the case. Your dad was out
Speaker 2: there a lot, but at the same time, there were
Speaker 2: a lot of other people involved. Maybe talk about some
Speaker 2: of them for us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean you had my dad, and he's
Speaker 4: kind of generally, I think considered one of the leaders
Speaker 4: of that group. You know, he's not the elder statesman,
Speaker 4: because West Summerland was the elder statesman of that group.
Speaker 4: You know, in a fine cowboy and a fine tracker
Speaker 4: in his own right, and was already experienced in Bigfoot
Speaker 4: by the time my dad even came around. You had
Speaker 4: David Bean who was a professional tracker as well. Bill
Speaker 4: Lowry was a scientist and a game warden. I believe
Speaker 4: at one point in time he was out there. You
Speaker 4: had Dark Glasgow Addington. She was Dark Glasgow at the time.
Speaker 4: She was out there in the field, and you know,
Speaker 4: since we brought her up, she's a lovely human being
Speaker 4: and a real pioneer actually as being one of the
Speaker 4: early female researchers and especially you know, for that particular area.
Speaker 4: But there was a lot of people that were out there.
Speaker 4: Kranz came out there and he spent a lot of
Speaker 4: time with my dad. After eighty two, you had people
Speaker 4: like Greg May who was a survival expert and wilderness
Speaker 4: survival instructor at Washington State University, and he spent a
Speaker 4: lot of time out there and was part of that
Speaker 4: entourage for about four or five years. I'm sure I'm
Speaker 4: forgetting someone as well. But yeah, it's not just my
Speaker 4: dad and it's not just his evidence. There's multiple people
Speaker 4: pulling multiple footprints and hair samples and finding trackways and
Speaker 4: even having sightings, you know, over this fifteen twenty year period.
Speaker 4: But everyone likes to pile it on the Freeman name.
Speaker 4: So you know, I hear that all the time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, for those listening that I was going to say,
Speaker 5: for those listening, the freeman we're talking about is the
Speaker 5: Freeman footage is the footage of the Bigfoot walking away
Speaker 5: like people think it might be picking up a baby.
Speaker 5: It's a color clip, just some people that we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and really all the Freeman evidence because he was
Speaker 2: working that area for ten years before he got the footage.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Speaker 2: Bobo will be right back after these messages. Boba, are
Speaker 2: you starting to notice thinning hair?
Speaker 3: Who me?
Speaker 2: Maybe a little a little hair left or a little
Speaker 2: thinning hair both, Well, I've got good news for you.
Speaker 2: Bobo Hymns offers access to prescription treatments for regrowing hair
Speaker 2: and as little as three to six months, so you
Speaker 2: can see a fuller head of hair like Bobo in
Speaker 2: the old days by fall.
Speaker 5: That'd be nice having a fresh fall crop to harvest.
Speaker 2: So Sweet Hymns offers convenient access to a range of
Speaker 2: prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients at work, including choose
Speaker 2: oral medication, serums and sprays.
Speaker 3: Yep, doctors trust this stuff. It's been clinically proven.
Speaker 5: It's got of ingredients like finesteride and oxidil and that
Speaker 5: stuff can stop hair loss and we go hair in
Speaker 5: as little as three to six months.
Speaker 2: You can get started from the comfort of your own home, cave,
Speaker 2: motor home, or wherever you happen to be by filling
Speaker 2: out an intake form and a medical provider will determine
Speaker 2: if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment
Speaker 2: is sent directly to you for free.
Speaker 5: The process is one hundred percent online, which means getting
Speaker 5: started has never been more convenient, and even if sasquatch
Speaker 5: can do it, it's so easy.
Speaker 2: No insurance is needed and one low price covers everything
Speaker 2: from treatments to ongoing care. Plus treatment options start at
Speaker 2: just thirty five dollars a month. Starts your free online
Speaker 2: visit today at hymns dot com slash beyond.
Speaker 5: That's hims dot com slash beyond for personalized hair loss
Speaker 5: treatment options.
Speaker 2: Hymns dot com slash beyond.
Speaker 1: Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and
Speaker 1: oral monoxidal and finasteride. Prescription required. See website for full details,
Speaker 1: restrictions and important safety information.
Speaker 2: I think he got two little clips over the years,
Speaker 2: one of ddux sprains. We'll get to that in a
Speaker 2: few minutes, but for now, so, there was a a
Speaker 2: whole gang of people you probably listed off at least eight.
Speaker 2: I wasn't counting. I probably should have been at least
Speaker 2: eight or maybe ten people there and all of their
Speaker 2: evidence put together for that twenty year span of high activity.
Speaker 2: The Golden Age of the Blue Mountains, from my counting
Speaker 2: is about sixty or so track fines, a lot more prints,
Speaker 2: but that's because people a good researchers go to a
Speaker 2: location and if there's multiple prints, they usually come back
Speaker 2: with multiple casts. That's not always the case, but it
Speaker 2: started being the case with your father. I know. I
Speaker 2: think your dad started with one or two casts from
Speaker 2: a location, but he eventually started bringing lots of casts
Speaker 2: back from certain track fines.
Speaker 4: Correct. Yeah, And you know, that is something I would
Speaker 4: like to touch on because I think there's a misconception
Speaker 4: by a lot of the general public when they think
Speaker 4: about Bigfoot or you know, finding bigfoot tracks or having casts,
Speaker 4: that if you have let's say thirty casts, that means
Speaker 4: that you found footprints on thirty different occasions from thirty
Speaker 4: different individual animals. And that certainly isn't the case, and
Speaker 4: that's not true. And when you look at let's just say,
Speaker 4: my father, in his fifteen years of research in the
Speaker 4: Blue Mountains. He's got about forty five to fifty casts,
Speaker 4: I think is what the number is, and that averages
Speaker 4: out to about three casts per year, which isn't something
Speaker 4: you know, that's an outrageous number over a fifteen year period.
Speaker 4: And when you start taking into account that there were two, three,
Speaker 4: up to five sometimes casts that were taken from a
Speaker 4: single trackway, that really cuts that number down even more.
Speaker 4: It's not like he was out there finding tracks and
Speaker 4: making casts every day. We're talking about finding maybe one
Speaker 4: or two sets of tracks per year if that, you know.
Speaker 4: And out of the forty five to fifty casts that
Speaker 4: we have, we have seven casts that come from the
Speaker 4: first six days that he was ever even exposed to bigfoot,
Speaker 4: you know, that were taken. So that cuts that number down,
Speaker 4: you know, to like what thirty eight and something or
Speaker 4: you know around there. But and I think that you know,
Speaker 4: at least Cliff, you're in agreement with me, when we
Speaker 4: look at the Blue Mountain evidence that we're looking at
Speaker 4: probably four or five individuals in about fifteen to twenty years.
Speaker 4: There's not a whole lot of bigfoot running around there.
Speaker 4: Two that we can identify completely, you know, that we
Speaker 4: think are female and we can get into that, you know,
Speaker 4: also in a little bit. And then we have a
Speaker 4: big male that is very elusive that we don't have
Speaker 4: a whole lot of evidence on. And then we have
Speaker 4: the possibility of one or two more in the early eighties,
Speaker 4: which we're not quite sure. One of them could be
Speaker 4: one that we already love, but we're looking at probably
Speaker 4: about four or five, and then maybe a juvenile that
Speaker 4: gets thrown into that. So it's not like my father
Speaker 4: has forty five CASTI It's it's forty five different bigfoot
Speaker 4: that are running around outside of wall wall. You know,
Speaker 4: we're looking at four animals in twenty years.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was counting today because I was
Speaker 2: thinking about that, Sam. I know we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about this at some point, about how many per year. Well,
Speaker 2: I started counting up the track finds in the Bluff
Speaker 2: Creek Rea during the Bluff Creek Golden Age, which is
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty eight, and I just
Speaker 2: counted track fines, not individual tracks. And as far as
Speaker 2: track finds go, there were something like seventeen ish and
Speaker 2: I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but because I
Speaker 2: don't have records, of all that stuff. But I have
Speaker 2: a pretty decent record, So let's just say, let's just
Speaker 2: say give it the benefit that out twenty, maybe as
Speaker 2: many as twenty different track finds that there are casts from,
Speaker 2: and so that's what two a year. So the people
Speaker 2: who complain about Paul Freeman finding three a year is
Speaker 2: being too many, well what do they have to say
Speaker 2: the Bluff Creek stuff, you know, because there were two
Speaker 2: a year on average there, and some of those track
Speaker 2: finds there were ten or more casts obtained from them,
Speaker 2: like the Patterson Giblin site for example. So I don't know.
Speaker 2: It seems that some of the arguments against the Freeman
Speaker 2: stuff like he is the luckiest bigfoot in the world,
Speaker 2: or there's he was finding too many things to be
Speaker 2: taken seriously, Well not really when you look at it
Speaker 2: from that perspective, And as a follow up question of
Speaker 2: what you were saying, by the best of your memory,
Speaker 2: how many weekends or whatever a month did your dad
Speaker 2: spend in the woods, because the Bluff Creek situation wasn't
Speaker 2: like that. They weren't They weren't out there two or
Speaker 2: three times a month.
Speaker 4: A lot of time in the woods. And you know,
Speaker 4: when when this book comes out, hopefully next month, we're
Speaker 4: going to go more into detail in that as well
Speaker 4: and kind of how that affected, you know, my mother
Speaker 4: and my family. But we're talking three to four days
Speaker 4: a week, at least four four or five hours at
Speaker 4: a time, at least sometimes overnight, sometimes a week at
Speaker 4: a time, sometimes two weeks at a time, gone from home,
Speaker 4: camping by himself in the mountains before cell phones, with
Speaker 4: no way to be in contact, you know, with my mom,
Speaker 4: who you know, for some periods of time didn't know
Speaker 4: if he was alive or day until he got into
Speaker 4: CV rage and he could call her on his CV radio.
Speaker 4: And you know, we had one of the home as well.
Speaker 4: But yeah, the man spent a lot of time, more
Speaker 4: time than he probably should have to be honest.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you bring something. I know, we're all
Speaker 2: over the place. It's an exactly linear conversation, but you
Speaker 2: mentioned your mother. And I'm a big advocate of the
Speaker 2: support team for bigfooters in a lot of ways because
Speaker 2: I have won myself. I've got a wife at home
Speaker 2: when I'm out in the woods, and I know she
Speaker 2: worries about me sometime and whatnot. And your mother is
Speaker 2: one of these sort of casualties of the bigfoot thing
Speaker 2: as well in some ways. What kind of a consequence
Speaker 2: or what kind of weight did your mother carry because
Speaker 2: of your father's for lack of a better term, obsession
Speaker 2: with the subject.
Speaker 4: Well, she had a lot of worry, you know, I
Speaker 4: can tell you that much. She always worried about him
Speaker 4: and whether he was okay or you know, what he
Speaker 4: was doing, or when he was going to come home.
Speaker 4: And there was financial burden as well. I mean, when
Speaker 4: you spend three or four days a week away from
Speaker 4: home in the mountains, that's three or four days a
Speaker 4: week that you're not working, you know. And so we
Speaker 4: didn't have money growing up, really, and there wasn't much
Speaker 4: funding for bigfoot research. And when my grandmother died and
Speaker 4: left her home to my mother, my parents sold it
Speaker 4: to support my dad's bigfoot research, you know. And he
Speaker 4: spent a lot of time working a night job so
Speaker 4: he could get off work at you know, four or
Speaker 4: five o'clock in the morning and go directly to the
Speaker 4: mountains and then come home and get what sleep he could,
Speaker 4: and you know, go back to work and turn around
Speaker 4: and go back to the mountains the next day. But
Speaker 4: you know my mom even dealing with all that, My
Speaker 4: mother was great and she's actually, if you don't know this,
Speaker 4: responsible for at least ninety nine percent of the documentation
Speaker 4: that was done on any of my dad's evidence, with
Speaker 4: the exception of his map. That's the one thing she
Speaker 4: never touched was his map in the garage. And I
Speaker 4: know that, Cliff. You have that out at the Bigfoot
Speaker 4: Center there and boring. Now it's on display. It's lovely.
Speaker 4: But every photograph we have that is documented is my
Speaker 4: mother's handwriting. Every letter of correspondence that was written to
Speaker 4: anybody else was typed by my mother. Displayed boards that
Speaker 4: were put together for you know, mall setups or going
Speaker 4: to any type of meeting or convention where he was
Speaker 4: speaking was done so by my mother. She worked tirelessly
Speaker 4: to catalog this stuff. And my father gets credit for
Speaker 4: doing a really good job of documenting his evidence for
Speaker 4: the time period that he was a researcher because he
Speaker 4: was one of the ones that was best at it.
Speaker 4: But if you want to know the truth, it was
Speaker 4: my mother that did that, you know, and my dad
Speaker 4: wanted her to, but she stuck by it, and she
Speaker 4: did it, and she stuck with him through thick and
Speaker 4: thin and through you know, taking criticism and being the
Speaker 4: wife of the crazy person and all this stuff. You know,
Speaker 4: she deserves a lot of credit. And I actually I
Speaker 4: have one picture of her in the field. It's going
Speaker 4: to be in the book. It's the only one I've got.
Speaker 4: She's actually out there standing in the field, you know,
Speaker 4: attempting to do some type of research. But you know
Speaker 4: that wasn't her thing. And but she certainly was active
Speaker 4: behind the scenes. And we owe her a debt of gratitude,
Speaker 4: uh for the documentation that she did. Otherwise a lot
Speaker 4: of this stuff would still be a mystery.
Speaker 3: Thank you, missus Freeman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you missus Freeman. Absolutely, and of course thanks
Speaker 2: to all the support teams of all these bigfoot weirdos
Speaker 2: out in the field. You know, whether it's my wife
Speaker 2: Melissa or Karita, the angel that helps Bobo out.
Speaker 3: She's a very fairly tolerable system.
Speaker 2: Oh please, She's an angel of love so much.
Speaker 3: She barely tolerates my big footing.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well, I've had I understand that. I thought
Speaker 2: I thought she man, you could barely tolerate her. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, my god, Bobo.
Speaker 4: Something else you know, to to just add to that
Speaker 4: that I didn't mention was my entire childhood, my entire life.
Speaker 4: My mother was a housewife, she never had a job.
Speaker 4: My dad was the sole supporter. She raised children. And
Speaker 4: as my dad got older and you know, around I
Speaker 4: think it was right around nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 4: as his health started to decline and he wasn't working
Speaker 4: as much and he was spending more time out there,
Speaker 4: she actually went and she went to community college and
Speaker 4: she got a degree, and she went and got a
Speaker 4: job as an accountant and was supporting the family pretty
Speaker 4: much of that time, which allowed my dad to spend
Speaker 4: more time out doing you know, research.
Speaker 2: So did not know that. That's interesting, That's very cool. Actually,
Speaker 2: stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 2: Will be right back after these messages. So I'm back
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty two when your dad had his first
Speaker 2: sighting there in the Mill Creek water shed. From what
Speaker 2: I've read and what I believe I think I know,
Speaker 2: is that he was basically one of these outriders, somebody
Speaker 2: on a horseback kind of patrolling the watershed circumference to
Speaker 2: make sure that nobody is going in there because the
Speaker 2: whole area is off limits. He had his siding thing
Speaker 2: crossed the road, he smelled it, he saw it, he
Speaker 2: cast a couple prints there. Rumor has it, and I'd
Speaker 2: like some clarification on this, please, Rumor has it that
Speaker 2: your dad was fired. Is that true or not? Well,
Speaker 2: first of.
Speaker 4: All, he was a boundary patrolman, so and he was
Speaker 4: not on horseback. He had a service vehicle, and he
Speaker 4: was responsible for twenty five square miles of the watershed. Now,
Speaker 4: to answer your question, no, he was not fired. That
Speaker 4: is one of those nasty rumors. My dad actually quit
Speaker 4: working for the Forest Service. He was demoted to a
Speaker 4: desk job. He was not allowed to go out and
Speaker 4: drive around or walk around anymore because they did not
Speaker 4: want him looking for Bigfoot or saying anything else about Bigfoot.
Speaker 4: And had taken some public criticism from the Forest Service.
Speaker 4: And as I had mentioned earlier, my grandmother had passed
Speaker 4: away and left a house to my mom, and that
Speaker 4: was in Camus, Washington, which is where we were from.
Speaker 4: And it was a really good excuse to say I'm
Speaker 4: out of here and you know, go start a new
Speaker 4: life someplace else, and you know, as we know, that
Speaker 4: didn't last very long.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would go back to the woods in Walla.
Speaker 2: Walla thought he even while he lived in Camus, he would.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when we moved back to Camus, they actually my
Speaker 4: parents opened a deli and smoked meat shop downtown Camus, Washington.
Speaker 4: It was called Freeman's and it was it was pretty successful.
Speaker 4: But yeah, he couldn't stay away. You know, he saw
Speaker 4: something that changed him. And every weekend he was going back.
Speaker 4: And this is you know, between nineteen eighty three and
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six, every weekend, every chance he got, he
Speaker 4: was leaving and he was going. And he wasn't working
Speaker 4: for anyone at the time except himself because it was
Speaker 4: my parents' business. And so he was, you know, leaving,
Speaker 4: and he was leaving. My mom and my older brother
Speaker 4: you know, who was sixteen seventeen at the time, were
Speaker 4: pretty much you know, kind of running the you know,
Speaker 4: their their deli there. But yeah, he would disappear. I
Speaker 4: didn't know any better. I was too young. I really
Speaker 4: wasn't sure what was going on except you know, Dad
Speaker 4: was gone. He was he was doing this, he was
Speaker 4: doing that, he was working, but he was going back
Speaker 4: to Walla Walla. Often he would take my older brother
Speaker 4: with him and he was hunting bigfoot and that time
Speaker 4: is what he was doing. And that's why we don't
Speaker 4: have a whole lot of casts or tracks that had
Speaker 4: come out of that time period, because that's not what
Speaker 4: he was interested in. He was spending a lot of
Speaker 4: time in the Winnaha to Candid Wilderness and he was
Speaker 4: going to kill one. I mean that that's what he
Speaker 4: was there for.
Speaker 3: What caliber rival was he karen? For that job?
Speaker 4: He had a three fifty six Norma Magnum rifle. Oh
Speaker 4: or yeah, it's a Fari gun. So, oh my god.
Speaker 2: Got so much has been made out of the professional
Speaker 2: tracker Joel Harden's work on your dad's track find because
Speaker 2: he was brought in after in June of nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 2: at the very end of June, because there were two
Speaker 2: track finds over that time. Not only was it was
Speaker 2: your dad's initial sighting there, but at six days I
Speaker 2: think six days later you're the expert, you probably correct me,
Speaker 2: please if I'm wrong. Six days later there was another
Speaker 2: track find there of the famous dermals, the footprints that
Speaker 2: gave that animal its name, and Joel Harden was brought
Speaker 2: in to check them out, and he deemed them fake.
Speaker 2: And of course most people, I'm sure most of our
Speaker 2: listeners are aware of this because they have read doctor
Speaker 2: Krantz's book bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence, or the first edition which
Speaker 2: is big Footprints. And of course, if you're one of
Speaker 2: our listeners who has not read this, you really ought
Speaker 2: to read doctor Krantz's book. That's kind of required reading
Speaker 2: for bigfooters. In my opinion, it seems to me that
Speaker 2: a lot of the things that Joel said about those
Speaker 2: tracks why they were fake, well, it seems largely due
Speaker 2: to the fact that Joel was an experienced man tracker
Speaker 2: and sasquatches are not humans because the things I mean,
Speaker 2: I just read read the chapter last night in preparation
Speaker 2: for this interview. And when I say the chapter, I
Speaker 2: not only read doctor Ranz's chapter, but I also read
Speaker 2: the chapter in Joel's book himself, his own book critiquing
Speaker 2: these particular tracks, and I got to say, like, I know,
Speaker 2: I mean no disrespect to mister Harden, of course, but
Speaker 2: I'm not very impressed with his reasons as to why
Speaker 2: these tracks are fake. And if I may, I'm going
Speaker 2: to read just something out of the book here, out
Speaker 2: of Joel's book, so supposedly in his own words, although
Speaker 2: he may have had a ghostwriter. It says here the
Speaker 2: Forest Service added that some somehow, in the three weeks
Speaker 2: after the sighting, ABC, NBC, and CBS, all the television
Speaker 2: networks at the time, had gotten winto the Bigfoot siding
Speaker 2: and they had all filed a core to action in
Speaker 2: Washington to force the Forest Service to permit them access
Speaker 2: into the Mill Creek watershed. And then he goes on,
Speaker 2: and this is the key sentence here, the Forest Service
Speaker 2: had been given forty eight hours to answer the injunction
Speaker 2: by coming up with evidence that reported the sighting was
Speaker 2: in fact a hoax. And that's why Joel Harden was
Speaker 2: called in by his boss to come look at these footprints.
Speaker 2: That sounds a little biased to begin with. And when
Speaker 2: you combine that with a sentence out of doctor Krantz's book,
Speaker 2: and I have that right here. See this is on
Speaker 2: page seventy nine of doctor Krantz's book. Talking about Harden,
Speaker 2: he says he judged them the tracks to be fakes.
Speaker 2: In fact, he made this pronouncements before he even looked
Speaker 2: at the tracks. According to three Forest service employees who
Speaker 2: told me overhearing this, so that doesn't bode well. And
Speaker 2: of course he does have spec reasons, and one of
Speaker 2: the reasons I thought was odd is that the dramaticglythics
Speaker 2: were too In fact, the tracks were too perfect. They
Speaker 2: were too good there for their fake. He also commented
Speaker 2: that there was no straddle in them, but that's a
Speaker 2: known feature of sasquatch trackways. He said, it would be
Speaker 2: impossible for a creature of this size to have no
Speaker 2: to have no straddle like that, but yet at the
Speaker 2: same time, that's exactly what evolution would eventually come up
Speaker 2: with because of their mass. Doctor Krantz goes into that
Speaker 2: subject quite quite a bit when he talks about the
Speaker 2: gait of the Patterson Gimlin film creature, because if there
Speaker 2: was straddle, and of course strattle is a distance left
Speaker 2: and right of a center line of the trackway. If
Speaker 2: there was significant straddle, an animal that size would be
Speaker 2: wobbly back and forth, so you would expect a compact
Speaker 2: center of gravity, therefore a very little straddle, if any,
Speaker 2: in their trackway. And that's exactly what he saw, and
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons he thought was fake. He
Speaker 2: also goes on to say that for a human to
Speaker 2: do that, it's next to impossible, but he did say
Speaker 2: it could be possible with practice. Does that imply that
Speaker 2: your dad actually practice walking like that and he knew
Speaker 2: what the gates of an animal of that size would be,
Speaker 2: would be necessary, you know, we would have to have
Speaker 2: And there's so many of the things in there just
Speaker 2: don't make quite much quite sense to me, you know.
Speaker 2: So what did your what did your dad? Do you
Speaker 2: remember your dad saying anything at all about mister Harden.
Speaker 4: Well, you are correct. June sixteenth is when the durs
Speaker 4: were found.
Speaker 2: Okay, so Joel was there a few days later. I
Speaker 2: guess he's probably there in the nineteenth because he does
Speaker 2: say he saw the track three days later, right el Elk.
Speaker 4: Wallow was where they were found in The common misconception
Speaker 4: is that these were found by my dad by himself,
Speaker 4: and that's not true. He was with another Foreign Service employee,
Speaker 4: a man by the name of Bill Epic. They found
Speaker 4: these tracks together, Epoh Epic, And they found these tracks
Speaker 4: together at the bottom of Low Canyon, a place called
Speaker 4: Elk Wallow. Was June sixteenth, nineteen eighty two. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: mister Harding comes in, and I have nothing against mister Harding.
Speaker 4: I'm sure he's great at his job as a man tracker,
Speaker 4: you know, for the border patrol. But you know, like
Speaker 4: you were saying, you got to look at the facts.
Speaker 4: He's a government employee that's brought in by government agency
Speaker 4: that does not want to allow the media access to
Speaker 4: the watershed. He's brought in to say that the tracks
Speaker 4: are fake. First and foremost. Mister Harding also is not
Speaker 4: a believer in bigfoot, So any set of tracks that
Speaker 4: you put in front of him, I'm sure he's going
Speaker 4: to tell you that they're fake. Mister Harding also has
Speaker 4: no experience at all tracking any type of bigfoot before
Speaker 4: or even higher primate, so you know, when you start
Speaker 4: adding it up, he was kind of in over his head,
Speaker 4: you know a little bit. And I also believe there's
Speaker 4: something in that book about sticking a straw three feet
Speaker 4: into the mud or something where one of these footprints
Speaker 4: were well.
Speaker 2: Actually, apparently, according to mister Harden's account, is that while
Speaker 2: they were amining this trackway of eight or possibly nine footprints,
Speaker 2: one of the other for service workers at the site
Speaker 2: there quote unquote discovered another trackway right up the hill
Speaker 2: from them in an elk wallow, and then they all
Speaker 2: went to go look at it, and these were about
Speaker 2: twelve to twenty four inches into the mud. And then
Speaker 2: he decided to shove straw down in it after, you know,
Speaker 2: into the bottom of the footprints, to show that the
Speaker 2: sasquats had not bottomed out. But it was just an
Speaker 2: artificial impression of some sort. But that doesn't make sense
Speaker 2: to me either, and I think Krantz addresses that in
Speaker 2: his book as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that seems odd, you know. But getting back to
Speaker 4: your question, Yeah, I actually have a it's kind of funny.
Speaker 4: I have a fantastic audio recording of my father talking
Speaker 4: about mister Harden that comes through my dad's private audio journals,
Speaker 4: and one of the things that he talks about is
Speaker 4: that Joel Harden said that these tracks can't be from
Speaker 4: a real animal because animals don't have dermal ridges on
Speaker 4: the paths of their feet. And my dad goes on
Speaker 4: to say that apparently mister Harden failed to realize that
Speaker 4: high primemates do indeed have that, and even dogs and
Speaker 4: pigs have them on their nose, you know, so it's
Speaker 4: not something that's out of the ordinary. But as far
Speaker 4: as you know, mister Harden was concerned. You know, dermal
Speaker 4: ridges are a human trade and you know, that's what
Speaker 4: he's used to tracking, and that's what he's looking for.
Speaker 4: And he also, you know, as I said, he has
Speaker 4: no experience tracking lightfoot, so he doesn't understand the gate
Speaker 4: or you know, the anatomy of the foot or you know,
Speaker 4: the flexation of the foot, anything like that, or even
Speaker 4: what an animal of that size that we would you know,
Speaker 4: presume is a primate would be capable of doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, one of the one of the things
Speaker 2: he wrote says that he apparently he says that your
Speaker 2: dad admitted to hoaxing stuff at some point. And I
Speaker 2: don't think he was talking about the Good Morning America thing,
Speaker 2: which we'll get to in a minute here, but he's here.
Speaker 2: It says right here on page one forty.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Several times between nineteen eighty two, citing at Mill Creek Watershed.
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety four, Paul Freeman was involved in other
Speaker 2: bigfoot sightings, including one in which we reported having seen
Speaker 2: a family of creatures, including a male, female and offspring.
Speaker 2: Local deputies searching the scene of the siding discredited, discredited
Speaker 2: the report and confronted Freeman. He admitted to authorities that
Speaker 2: he had not only made up the story, but he
Speaker 2: had also constructed some feat quote unquote to make tracks
Speaker 2: his evidence to validate his siding, and had done so
Speaker 2: in previous events. What's that about.
Speaker 4: I don't know what that's about. First of all, it
Speaker 4: can't be another siding in nineteen ninety three or nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety four. He didn't have any sidings in nineteen ninety
Speaker 4: three or ninety four. His last sighting was nineteen ninety
Speaker 4: two at Dduk Spread.
Speaker 2: Did he ever see a family? Did he ever see
Speaker 2: a family at all? I don't remember a siding of
Speaker 2: a family of bigfoots, right, So, you.
Speaker 4: Know we're starting off with incorrect date information in the
Speaker 4: first place. The only instance I can think of that
Speaker 4: he might be referring to would be the deduct footy
Speaker 4: where someone later in the year of two thousand, Doug
Speaker 4: Hicheck discovered what might be a baby in that film,
Speaker 4: and my dad thought that there were, you know, two
Speaker 4: adults in the film. But my father never claimed that
Speaker 4: he didn't even know anything about a supposed baby or
Speaker 4: offspring in the film until that was brought to him
Speaker 4: in my two thousand and one. So I don't know
Speaker 4: anything about that. I know that there's no sightings in
Speaker 4: ninety three, there's no sidings in ninety four. I seriously,
Speaker 4: seriously doubt first of all, that he was ever confronted
Speaker 4: by any sheriff's deputies. First of all, I just don't
Speaker 4: see that happening. Secondly, he knew them all in the
Speaker 4: area and knowing my dad. And I'm laughing because I
Speaker 4: can envision his interaction with them. He you know, would
Speaker 4: have told them And you can bleep me out here
Speaker 4: if you need to kiss his ass and prove it.
Speaker 4: It's exactly what he would have said in a situation
Speaker 4: like that. So I don't know where this comes from.
Speaker 4: And you know Hardin's book, this little section. I've seen
Speaker 4: this before, I've read it. I've had some people throw
Speaker 4: it up in my face. But I can tell your point.
Speaker 4: You know, for a fact, he never admitted to anyone
Speaker 4: hoaxing anything. Number one. Number two, if he had even
Speaker 4: to the sheriff's deputies, man, it would have been all
Speaker 4: over the papers. He was big news in Walla Walla
Speaker 4: at that time. Like that would have been everywhere, it would
Speaker 4: have been in the news, you know, and that certainly
Speaker 4: like didn't happen. So yeah, I'm not sure. I don't
Speaker 4: even know where that comes from. But I would actually
Speaker 4: go as far as to say that that is complete fabrication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least so another rumor that he picked
Speaker 2: up and he printed. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Speaker 2: Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after
Speaker 2: these messages.
Speaker 4: The other thing that surrounds this event that we haven't
Speaker 4: touched on is another rumor. As I'm sure you know,
Speaker 4: there's a rumor that renee to Hindon had already spoiled
Speaker 4: mister Harden before he even got through the tracks, you know.
Speaker 4: But again rumor, and as I said, we don't deal in.
Speaker 2: Rumors, Yeah, yeah, yeah, rumors or rumors, man, I'd rather
Speaker 2: deal with the evidence. And that's why I focus on
Speaker 2: the evidence and put less faith in what people say
Speaker 2: for the most part, you know, less they were there
Speaker 2: and or were witnesses of it, you know, let's get
Speaker 2: let's jump right into the film, because that's besides footprint
Speaker 2: casts and some other like handprint casts and stuff, which
Speaker 2: we should also talk about. But the film is one
Speaker 2: of the things that your dad is most known for,
Speaker 2: but very few people realize that that was the second
Speaker 2: time he filmed one. So let's talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about that first film that very few people have seen.
Speaker 2: And even you gave me a copy of it, and
Speaker 2: I still have not even sat down and gotten deep
Speaker 2: into it, by the way, So I apologize for not
Speaker 2: doing my homework on that level. But I have watched it.
Speaker 2: I think you watched it with me. He might have
Speaker 2: been watching me with me.
Speaker 4: We watched it together. Yeah, we talked about it a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but with that very interesting stuff, I mean,
Speaker 2: it wasn't a great film. But anyway, you tell us
Speaker 2: about that first film before we get into the big one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's filmed at a location called Green Peak,
Speaker 4: I believe. I believe it's nineteen ninety two, so I
Speaker 4: think it's the same year as the Dad of Spring Footage.
Speaker 2: Actually I remember it being April of ninety two. I
Speaker 2: could be red.
Speaker 4: Roll in April of ninety two. Yeah, and the camera
Speaker 4: turns on. He's still in his truck, he's driving down
Speaker 4: the road and he sees what he believes to be
Speaker 4: a sasquatch and the camera turns on as he's getting
Speaker 4: out of the truck and he's, you know, super excited,
Speaker 4: and he slams his card door and I believe his
Speaker 4: exclamation or whatever is I've been waiting ten years for this.
Speaker 4: I think that's what he says. But by the time
Speaker 4: he gets the camera up and it's not zoomed in,
Speaker 4: of course, and we go back to you know, my
Speaker 4: dad just wasn't a technological you know guy, you know,
Speaker 4: and anyone who's ever seen that or listened to I
Speaker 4: guess that audio for the returned camera if you know
Speaker 4: what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's also on Todd Prescott's Sasquatch Archive website.
Speaker 4: Him and the gentleman that he's with they can't figure
Speaker 4: out how to turn the camera off. Okay, No, he was.
Speaker 2: He was an absolutely terrible cameraman. Nothing personal against your dad.
Speaker 4: He was not good with technology. He was not educated
Speaker 4: in that way, and he didn't ssume the camera in
Speaker 4: you know, at Greenpeak in this first video, and you
Speaker 4: can see there's a sasquatch, you know, and it appears
Speaker 4: to be I don't know, sixty seventy feet away maybe
Speaker 4: something like that, maybe longer, but the angle of it
Speaker 4: with the road and the trees, it's kind of difficult
Speaker 4: to see, and I don't think you can see the
Speaker 4: entire body. But what's interesting with that one is that
Speaker 4: it stops completely and turns around to look at him
Speaker 4: for a couple of seconds. It just stops, and then
Speaker 4: it continues on its way, and he ends up, you know,
Speaker 4: following it and following some of the footprints and we'll
Speaker 4: talk about those in a second, and it ends up
Speaker 4: going in very dark, very heavy, heavy forest, and he
Speaker 4: kind of gets spooked a little bit and he isn't
Speaker 4: sure if he wants to follow it in there, you know.
Speaker 4: But I know one of the things that you and
Speaker 4: I talked about, and we'll have to look at it
Speaker 4: a little more in depth and a little further. And
Speaker 4: I've actually been trying to look at some stills from
Speaker 4: that video is that I believe it's a different individual
Speaker 4: than the one that he gets in August in Ddux spread.
Speaker 4: It looks like it's probably a different bigfoot, and it
Speaker 4: looks like it's probably an individual that we know is
Speaker 4: in the area from other footprints that we have from
Speaker 4: the past.
Speaker 2: It is an interesting video. Of course, he did not
Speaker 2: do a good job well filming it because of the
Speaker 2: distance and the circumstances. And you know, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to complain about what he did because it's better than
Speaker 2: anything I've gotten, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it's kind of a blat at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: So what was your dad's What were your dad's comments
Speaker 2: on that piece of footage.
Speaker 4: Well, he was super upset actually, because he thought when
Speaker 4: he took the video that you know, this is it.
Speaker 4: I've got it, you know. And then I remember he
Speaker 4: came home and you know, plugged that old camera into
Speaker 4: the TV so you know, you could you could watch it,
Speaker 4: and here's this tiny little thing that you can't even
Speaker 4: see because he made a mistake with the camera and
Speaker 4: hadn't zoomed in. And I think that one of the
Speaker 4: mistakes he made, I think of a big mistake is
Speaker 4: that he slammed the door of his truck when he
Speaker 4: got out of it instead of leaving it open. And
Speaker 4: I think that may have spooked that animal or caused
Speaker 4: it to take a different trajectory. Not that it hadn't
Speaker 4: heard him driving down the road, you know, but I
Speaker 4: think a loud noise like that probably wasn't helpful, you know,
Speaker 4: either in that situation, but you know he was upset.
Speaker 4: But you know, it's you know, it is what it is.
Speaker 4: And I know that it had some slight local media coverage,
Speaker 4: you know, nothing grand, nothing like dtave.
Speaker 3: Tad, you know.
Speaker 4: And the other thing that bothers me about that is
Speaker 4: is I know what people say, you know, and I
Speaker 4: know what people are going to say about that is it's, ah,
Speaker 4: he's got two videos, you know, and like, you know,
Speaker 4: I've been doing this my whole life and I've never
Speaker 4: even seen one, And how can this guy get two videos?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 4: And you go back to the quote that I heard
Speaker 4: earlier this week from somebody else, is you know, Paul
Speaker 4: Freeman's either the luckiest bigfooter that ever lived or he's
Speaker 4: a complete fraud, you know, And you know it's it's
Speaker 4: neither actually, And you know, Cliff, you can attest to
Speaker 4: this as well, because you're educating on the subject. But
Speaker 4: you have the right guy who has the right skill set,
Speaker 4: which is a trained hunter and tracker, who has the
Speaker 4: right area, which is a hotbed, which is what the
Speaker 4: Blue Mountains were, you know, especially at that time, and
Speaker 4: he has the time to devote to do it, you
Speaker 4: know you're going to get more results. And you know,
Speaker 4: one of my dad's quotes actually is that you know,
Speaker 4: if you go fishing once a year, you may not
Speaker 4: catch anything, but if you go fishing every day, you're
Speaker 4: going to get something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the right spot has everything in
Speaker 2: the world to do with it. The Bluff Creek and
Speaker 2: the sixties, they were there. There's a group of them
Speaker 2: in that specific area, and that's why they got so
Speaker 2: much stuff. The Blue Mountains at that time, there were
Speaker 2: a group of them moving around in there quite often,
Speaker 2: and they got good stuff. I've got a spot over
Speaker 2: in Mountain National Forests that have yielded I think at
Speaker 2: least four tracks in the last year and a half.
Speaker 2: It's the right area. So we're hitting it hard. And
Speaker 2: you know, money Maker commented on this, if you read
Speaker 2: his expedition page, he comments that like, yeah, everywhere might
Speaker 2: look good for Bigfoot, but they're not everywhere. They're in
Speaker 2: certain areas and that's the truth. That is the truth.
Speaker 2: It's even to the point now and I've said it
Speaker 2: before in the podcast when people come in the museum
Speaker 2: and they say, yeah, I saw one up so and so,
Speaker 2: and I go, oh, yeah, was it on this road?
Speaker 2: They go, well, yeah, it was on that road. How
Speaker 2: did you know, because that's where everybody else sees them
Speaker 2: because they hang out in certain areas. The spot and
Speaker 2: the researcher are just part of a perfect storm that
Speaker 2: can come together if everything is right. People are willing
Speaker 2: to spend the time out there.
Speaker 4: Correct, Yeah, you know, my father had the time to spend.
Speaker 4: He made the time to spend. Even if he wouldn't
Speaker 4: have had it, he would have made it. You know,
Speaker 4: he made the time to spend out there. He knew
Speaker 4: the area as well or better than anybody else that's
Speaker 4: ever been there, and he was prepared and he knew
Speaker 4: what he was doing. And as far as you know,
Speaker 4: being a hunter and a tracker goes, he's one of
Speaker 4: the best that's ever done that. And I can't think
Speaker 4: if anyone, you know, that would even come close to
Speaker 4: be better than him. He was kind of the perfect
Speaker 4: guy in the perfect spot. People can say whatever they want,
Speaker 4: you know, people can past judgment and they can do
Speaker 4: all this and they can you know, like I said,
Speaker 4: listen to these rumors, but you know, and it's not
Speaker 4: just my dad. As we talked about earlier, it's the
Speaker 4: Blue Mountains and the Blue Mountain Evidence and all the
Speaker 4: people involved in that. They have produced some of the
Speaker 4: best footprint and cast evidence that's ever been found. And
Speaker 4: all you got to do is.
Speaker 2: Take a look at yeah, and you know, yep, you
Speaker 2: can't look at one or two casts. I'd like to
Speaker 2: make that perfectly clear. I will be so bold to
Speaker 2: even say that if you have less than a dozen
Speaker 2: casts in your collection, you probably don't know very much
Speaker 2: about casts, because you have to be able to see
Speaker 2: a variety of casts and a variety of toe positions
Speaker 2: and flexations and all that sort of stuff to really
Speaker 2: start wrapping your head around what a sasquatch foot is
Speaker 2: and what it's capable of doing. You can't just look
Speaker 2: at a half a dozen casts and think, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know about bigfootprints. I've got six, Well that's cute. No,
Speaker 2: you need a lot more than that and improve in
Speaker 2: the putting bows. How many casts do you have?
Speaker 3: Sixty or seventy?
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go, and yeah, so Bobo's
Speaker 2: an unsung hero of casts and recognizing solid casts in
Speaker 2: the ground and stuff. But yeah, so you have to
Speaker 2: have a lot of these things. You just simply have
Speaker 2: to have a lot of these things to really understand
Speaker 2: what's going on. But you know, let's fast forward a
Speaker 2: few months and let's talk about the most famous Freeman
Speaker 2: footage is out there, which is the d Duck Springs footage.
Speaker 2: And you have such interesting insight into this because you
Speaker 2: knew what your dad was up to at the time,
Speaker 2: You knew what happened on that day, and you were
Speaker 2: even the first person of your family at least that
Speaker 2: he spoke to after the footage was obtained. So fill
Speaker 2: us in, tell us the story of the de Duck footage.
Speaker 4: Uh, Deduct. Yeah, well, the week that that was filmed,
Speaker 4: and my dad had been to Deduct every single day,
Speaker 4: he knew we're coming there. Well, it was a it
Speaker 4: was a hot summer. A lot of the water sources
Speaker 4: had dried up. You know, hot dry summers are not
Speaker 4: uncommon in that area. It's it's that high desert eastern Washington,
Speaker 4: you know, but that summer was particularly hot and a
Speaker 4: lot of the water sources had dried up. And we
Speaker 4: also have in anyone who's ever seen his map, if
Speaker 4: you haven't seen it, and go to the North American
Speaker 4: big Foot Center and check it out. The area around
Speaker 4: De Duck Spring is by far the most active area
Speaker 4: for Bigfoot evidence in you know, that Blue Mountain region
Speaker 4: right there. Year after year after year, you have evidence
Speaker 4: coming out of there. You know, he he knew they
Speaker 4: were there, he knew they were getting water, and he
Speaker 4: was going up there every day. And now my dad
Speaker 4: was going. You know, he's working nights. At the time,
Speaker 4: he was you know, getting off work about four o'clock
Speaker 4: in the morning or so, he was driving up to
Speaker 4: De Ducks about an hour and a half drive from
Speaker 4: where we lived. He was getting there around six o'clock
Speaker 4: in the morning. He would sit in his vehicle, he
Speaker 4: would watch the pond and then you know, eventually as
Speaker 4: it got lighter, he would get out. He'd go look
Speaker 4: for tracks and disturbances, you know, around the pond's edge,
Speaker 4: you know, stuff like that. And he was finding some
Speaker 4: things here and there, but you know, not not a
Speaker 4: whole lot of a whole lot of luck. And then
Speaker 4: you know, on the weekends he was getting up and
Speaker 4: he was going earlier because you know, my dad, one
Speaker 4: of the mistakes that he made, and yes, I'll say
Speaker 4: it's a mistake. One of the mistakes he made is
Speaker 4: that he had it in his brain that they were
Speaker 4: coming before he got there, and that they were they
Speaker 4: were getting water and they were taking care of their needs,
Speaker 4: and then they were leaving, and that they had figured
Speaker 4: him out and they knew, you know, about what time
Speaker 4: he was going to come, and so he thought that
Speaker 4: he was missing them. It turns out that that, you know,
Speaker 4: that was that was a mistake. Now what's really interesting
Speaker 4: in what kind of leads us to the footage is
Speaker 4: actually something that was completely by chance, and that was
Speaker 4: that the night before he got the footage, which was Wednesday,
Speaker 4: and that was August nineteenth, nineteen ninety two, before he
Speaker 4: went to work that evening, he got a phone call
Speaker 4: from my sister and I just want to say, you know,
Speaker 4: my sister passed away this June in a motorcycle accident.
Speaker 4: So you know, we're all going to miss her and
Speaker 4: may she rest in peace. But she has an integral
Speaker 4: part in the story of my dad's footage. And anyway,
Speaker 4: he got a phone call from my sister and her
Speaker 4: car would not start and she had to get to
Speaker 4: work in the morning and give my nephew to daycare.
Speaker 4: And you know all that stuff, and you know, she said, Dad,
Speaker 4: can you come over and fix my car? And so
Speaker 4: my dad said, yeah, you know, of course, of course
Speaker 4: I will. And he went to work that night. He
Speaker 4: had no intentions of going to de duck Spring the
Speaker 4: next day, none at all. He went to work, he
Speaker 4: got off work, he came home, he got a little sleep,
Speaker 4: he got up in the morning, he went and got
Speaker 4: his cup of coffee at the Flying Jay restaurant, which
Speaker 4: is where you know he always went, and he drove
Speaker 4: over to my sister's house and got her car running
Speaker 4: so she could go. And the best estimation of time
Speaker 4: I have, and it's it's kind of debatable. Some people
Speaker 4: say he got to d Duckt around nine am. I
Speaker 4: don't think that's true. I think he headed to de
Speaker 4: Ducked around nine am. So I think he left my
Speaker 4: sister's house around nine am is kind of the way
Speaker 4: I interpret this. But anyway, he left my sister's house
Speaker 4: and he was going home, and then halfway home he
Speaker 4: just thought, well, what the hell, I'll drive up there
Speaker 4: and maybe there's some footprints, you know, or something I
Speaker 4: could find. And what ended up happening was he ended
Speaker 4: up getting to d ducked anywhere between three, two, four
Speaker 4: and a half hours later than when he was normally
Speaker 4: showing up. And like I said, the mistake he made
Speaker 4: was he thought that they were coming before him and leaving,
Speaker 4: and that's not true. They were already there and were
Speaker 4: watching him, and when he was leaving, then they were
Speaker 4: going and they were getting their water. And I'm absolutely
Speaker 4: certain of this. And when he showed up late that day,
Speaker 4: he surprised them and he walked right up on one
Speaker 4: too or possibly too. Yeah, I mean, you know that
Speaker 4: that's something we're looking into. And I have my own
Speaker 4: theories on that, and we'll get into that here in
Speaker 4: a minute. Well, you know, in my dad's own words,
Speaker 4: he thinks that when he drove up, when he when
Speaker 4: it heard the car, and when he drove up and parked,
Speaker 4: he thinks that he startled it. That it was probably
Speaker 4: at the pond getting water, because the tracks that are
Speaker 4: there look very, very fresh, and he makes a comment
Speaker 4: in the video that wow, these are you know, these
Speaker 4: are fresh. So his description is that he thinks it
Speaker 4: was at the pond. It's Waldinen Pond, by the way.
Speaker 4: If anyone doesn't know that it's not actually De Duck
Speaker 4: Spring Walden Pond at the Dedux trailhead. Dedux Spring is
Speaker 4: this little tiny spring that runs out of the ground
Speaker 4: that feeds the pond. But anyway, he pulls up in
Speaker 4: his car, he startles his animal and it takes off
Speaker 4: and it goes back up the trail and it goes
Speaker 4: to the right, and as he's looking at the prince
Speaker 4: and he gets his camera and he's filming these prints,
Speaker 4: and then he kind of hears it in the brush
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, and again we'll talk about this, but
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, it decides to cut back and go
Speaker 4: to the left and cross him and head for the
Speaker 4: watershed boundary, which is that way. Not only the watershed boundary,
Speaker 4: but there's also you've been there recently, Cliff. It's what
Speaker 4: about twenty yards after it goes off camera in his footage,
Speaker 4: there's about a fifteen foot ravine that drops off into
Speaker 4: the spring. But yeah, so you know, a little luck,
Speaker 4: a little chance, a little you know, preparedness, because you know,
Speaker 4: he had the right spot, and he had the right
Speaker 4: time of year, and he had the right reason for
Speaker 4: them being there. He knew they were coming. He was
Speaker 4: just missing them because of something and I think that
Speaker 4: he was probably underestimating, you know, their ability to to
Speaker 4: watch him and know him and know when he was
Speaker 4: leaving and then make their approach, you know, after the
Speaker 4: safety of him being gone, instead of taking the chance
Speaker 4: of you know, just coming out without seeing him.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: But yeah, the fact that he was late, certainly, it
Speaker 4: is what leads to it leads to him getting the footage.
Speaker 4: You know. Another misconception, though, I just want to clear up,
Speaker 4: is everyone seems to think, for some reason that this
Speaker 4: is the first time he rolled up with a video camera,
Speaker 4: you know, and he's filming, and it is completely not true.
Speaker 4: I have hours of footage of him filming just tracks
Speaker 4: in the ground, or he's talking to somebody else, or
Speaker 4: you know, he's casting prints, or my dog's running around,
Speaker 4: and there's all these things. And he was reusing these
Speaker 4: eight millimeter magnetic tapes because we couldn't afford to buy
Speaker 4: new ones, and so sometimes we have different events that
Speaker 4: are on the same tape. And one of the things
Speaker 4: that we have would Deduct is we have a casting
Speaker 4: of juvenile prints at Gifford Peak on the deduct master tape,
Speaker 4: and they happened to come before the deduct footage, And
Speaker 4: what has happened in the past is people have tried
Speaker 4: to make the connection that he was casting those juvenile
Speaker 4: prints and then he walks over to the pond and
Speaker 4: then he gets his footage, and people have tried to
Speaker 4: use this to say, yeah, look, I told you there's
Speaker 4: a juvenile in that footage. Well, it's not true that
Speaker 4: he did that, because those are two completely separate events.
Speaker 4: The juvenile castings at Gifford Peak were done months before
Speaker 4: the Deduct footage. It just so happens to be on
Speaker 4: the same master tape because he was recording over other stuff.
Speaker 4: What he recorded over my nephew's second birthday party to
Speaker 4: get the Deduct footage. That's the other thing that was
Speaker 4: on the tape. You know, if that shows you how
Speaker 4: important they're the Bigfoot stuff was. But you know, again
Speaker 4: for the last time, there were no juvenile prints that
Speaker 4: were cast at Deduct. Those are from different peak. Those
Speaker 4: two things are separate events. They are not connected. I
Speaker 4: wish people would stop showing them as a connection to
Speaker 4: try to prove a point.
Speaker 2: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Speaker 2: Bogo will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 4: Here's what I think happened is I believe he pulls
Speaker 4: up in the car, he startles it. It goes up
Speaker 4: the trail and it goes to the right and he,
Speaker 4: you know, he's looking at the tracks and he falls
Speaker 4: it up there and he gets too close, and I
Speaker 4: think that it comes back out to the left and
Speaker 4: it shoots him that look. And I don't think that's
Speaker 4: a friendly look. I think that's a warning because if
Speaker 4: you notice when it does that, it's a fast head step,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's not a slow like I'm gonna
Speaker 4: look at you. It's a seeing now you're too close.
Speaker 2: Yeah, kind of like well like like what Roger Patterson
Speaker 2: described when he saw that sasquatch look at him and
Speaker 2: give him that look like an umpire. He said that
Speaker 2: the giving to look one more screw up and you're
Speaker 2: out of the game.
Speaker 4: Exactly right. And then it keeps going to the left
Speaker 4: and it hides behind the tree and then it pops
Speaker 4: out and it goes about twenty yards and it drops
Speaker 4: down that ravine and it moves along the ravine and
Speaker 4: it pops back out to get that baby.
Speaker 2: I disagree with that. And then part of me for
Speaker 2: interrupting and The reason I say that is because you know,
Speaker 2: you very generously gave us access to the original tape,
Speaker 2: and we uploaded the original tape, which has none of
Speaker 2: the distortions and none of the interlacings that all the
Speaker 2: other every other copy has on there. And the baby
Speaker 2: the baby pick up, if that's indeed what it is,
Speaker 2: is before we see the sasquatch disappear, and you can
Speaker 2: actually see the top of the sasquatch as it's down
Speaker 2: or going down into the ravine, and that is later
Speaker 2: on in the film. I don't think it came back
Speaker 2: out to get the baby.
Speaker 4: I think it drops into the ravine and comes back
Speaker 4: up to get the baby and then goes back down
Speaker 4: into the ravine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think that's the case. I think it
Speaker 2: went down in the ravine after it got the baby.
Speaker 2: But what we can we can get the film out
Speaker 2: together and take a look at some point.
Speaker 4: But that that's kind of my like interpretation is that,
Speaker 4: you know, after it disappears, I think it makes a
Speaker 4: beeline for that and moves along that and it comes
Speaker 4: back up and grabs her and or grabs it whatever
Speaker 4: and goes back down. But maybe not, you know, like
Speaker 4: I said that that's my thought process on you know,
Speaker 4: what might be happening there.
Speaker 2: Well, I will say that there is a cut in
Speaker 2: the film, so we don't know the time laps there,
Speaker 2: so maybe you are right, we really don't know. And
Speaker 2: unfortunately our dad's not around it, right.
Speaker 4: And I wasn't there obviously, But that's at least I guess.
Speaker 4: I would say that's my thought process on what I
Speaker 4: think it's doing. And of course there I go again
Speaker 4: saying I don't like when people assume that they would
Speaker 4: know what a bigfoot would do and then I just
Speaker 4: did it, but you know, trying to piece it together.
Speaker 4: That's that's my impression. But you made me right as well.
Speaker 4: And it may be moving not down the ravine until
Speaker 4: after it supposedly will say for right now grabs that baby.
Speaker 4: But regardless of that, regardless of whether you when I
Speaker 4: are right, we end up in the ravine at the end.
Speaker 4: And I think solely the reason that it even showed
Speaker 4: itself to him, it walks in front of him, it
Speaker 4: turns its head is because it's trying to distract him
Speaker 4: from something, and it's trying to hide something. And I
Speaker 4: think that what it's trying to hide. Is that baby
Speaker 4: that's back there that it goes and gets. And I
Speaker 4: think if that baby wouldn't have been there, and it
Speaker 4: wouldn't have been so far away from it, he would
Speaker 4: have never got that video.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very likely sasquatch, just because you know, to the
Speaker 2: rights to the camera, right, there's a big slope and
Speaker 2: you can go uphill and disappear into the trees. There
Speaker 2: must have been a reason it was hanging around that
Speaker 2: very well. Could have been that the infant in the
Speaker 2: area to.
Speaker 4: Be a reason. And if there's an infant there, it
Speaker 4: gives perfect reason for it to have that behavior, you know.
Speaker 4: But you're right. There are some strange things in the
Speaker 4: newspaper that follow this event. One of them actually kind
Speaker 4: of backs the possibility of having a baby. And that
Speaker 4: is my dad's account of what he calls the second sasquatch,
Speaker 4: which is the one that plucks the baby up. Now,
Speaker 4: I don't think it's the second one. I think it's
Speaker 4: the same one, and so I don't think there were
Speaker 4: two there. I think that you're correct, and he overshot
Speaker 4: it and it came out in a different spot than
Speaker 4: he expected it to be, and so he thought that
Speaker 4: it was a second bigfoot, but I think it is
Speaker 4: the same one that walks in front of the camera,
Speaker 4: and I've referred to her as you know, big Jill
Speaker 4: or whatever. But I think it's the same sasquatch. But
Speaker 4: when he sees that one for the second time, there's
Speaker 4: a description that's given in a newspaper that it turned
Speaker 4: to look at him and he could see what he
Speaker 4: thought was a deformity on the side of its head
Speaker 4: and neck, that stump stuck out like a lump, like
Speaker 4: it was deformed. I think that that's the baby on
Speaker 4: her back, and I think that what he's seen from
Speaker 4: one hundred feet away or however far was through the
Speaker 4: trees right there. I think it's the baby's head that
Speaker 4: he's seen that looked looks like a hunchbacker, looks like
Speaker 4: a deformality. The other account we have, like you said,
Speaker 4: is that you know, he hit out in the tree
Speaker 4: had fallen down and the roots had come up, and
Speaker 4: they you know, dug out like a little den and
Speaker 4: he hid down in there for up to two hours,
Speaker 4: I guess, is whatever the estimation is, because they had
Speaker 4: gotten somewhat aggressive and he had heard some vocalizations that
Speaker 4: they were making and he thought that maybe they were
Speaker 4: behind him, following him, and so he got a little
Speaker 4: nervous and he ditched himself out in there. I think
Speaker 4: that up to two hours is probably not correct, you know,
Speaker 4: if this is what happened. I think that, you know,
Speaker 4: he didn't have a watch, he never wore one, There
Speaker 4: was no cell phones. His camera which wasn't even on,
Speaker 4: didn't even have like a timestamp on it. And I
Speaker 4: think that if you were under stress or shock or
Speaker 4: scared in that situation, you would have no concept of time.
Speaker 4: And also we know this as well because about the
Speaker 4: time that he arrives home later. I don't think it
Speaker 4: can be two hours. I think that if this happened,
Speaker 4: and maybe it was maybe thirty.
Speaker 2: Minutes, which was really seem like two hours if you're
Speaker 2: scared out of your mind, which.
Speaker 4: Would seemed why two hours if you're scared out of
Speaker 4: your mind. And I have an account of him saying
Speaker 4: that he was in a cold sweat, you know, basically
Speaker 4: getting ready to speak to the man upstairs and say like,
Speaker 4: you know, hey, let me out of this thing. You know,
Speaker 4: we also have my dad saying that during this event
Speaker 4: that there was a voice inside of him that said,
Speaker 4: that's it. You don't need to bother these animals anymore.
Speaker 4: You got close enough. Maybe you just need to leave
Speaker 4: them alone, you know. And whatever that voice was, or
Speaker 4: whatever you want to call it, you know, it's something
Speaker 4: that I've heard him talk about more than once. It
Speaker 4: is having that feeling during this whole episode. But we
Speaker 4: do have a little confusion on the time, you know,
Speaker 4: and we know, or at least I think, I know,
Speaker 4: that there weren't two of them. I think that you're right,
Speaker 4: and he overshot that and he thought there was two,
Speaker 4: and so he therefore thought the other one was behind
Speaker 4: him when it wasn't. And I think he started to
Speaker 4: get a little scared at that point because you know,
Speaker 4: if you're dealing with the wild animal, that's one thing,
Speaker 4: but if you're dealing with two of them, then the
Speaker 4: odds of the unknown happening goes up, right, and especially
Speaker 4: with the young you know, if there's a young one involved,
Speaker 4: you know, then you're in real danger. So I think that,
Speaker 4: you know, it scared him a little bit. I think
Speaker 4: that his timeframe was off. And I also think, and
Speaker 4: again nothing against my dad, you know, but he was
Speaker 4: a big, tough guy, he was one of those guys, macho,
Speaker 4: tough guy, and I have this feeling that it scared
Speaker 4: him a little bit and that embarrassing, and that's you know,
Speaker 4: maybe that like I hit out for two hours, you know,
Speaker 4: thaying was kind of a little overshot to cover up
Speaker 4: for that embarrassment, you know, And that's just me being
Speaker 4: honest and what I feel may have happened.
Speaker 2: Well, sure, yeah, I think that's very reasonable. So the
Speaker 2: video got a lot of attention, of course, and it
Speaker 2: even threw the attention of national television, which I think
Speaker 2: is a good segue into speaking about the Good Morning
Speaker 2: America thing. Why don't you tell us about that? Because
Speaker 2: that has caused a lot of just damage to your
Speaker 2: father's reputation and it seemed to be a total hit job.
Speaker 2: I mean, Thomas, tell us about that.
Speaker 4: God, I'm surprising with this long without talking about it.
Speaker 4: I'm so sick of hearing about Good Morning America. But yeah,
Speaker 4: let's dig it, let's just put it in the ground
Speaker 4: some more.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 4: Yeah, nineteen eighty seven. Some people always think it's early
Speaker 4: nineties for some reason, but it's not. In nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 4: my father goes on Good Morning America, with West Summerland
Speaker 4: and Reneda Hendon and Mike Dennett who's a skeptic and
Speaker 4: gets a real hit job actually from the network. And
Speaker 4: you know, it's kind of a satire piece from the beginning.
Speaker 4: They're just kind of making fun of bigfooters, but the
Speaker 4: real damage in portion, you know, comes into a real slick,
Speaker 4: just hatchet job at it that they do on my
Speaker 4: dad when they asked him a question and he tries
Speaker 4: to answer it honestly, and you know, the question they
Speaker 4: ask is, you know, have you ever made fake footprints?
Speaker 4: And my dad's just being transparent and he's being honest,
Speaker 4: and he says, yeah, I've made fake footprints. I've made
Speaker 4: them in my garden at home, and I'm you know,
Speaker 4: trying to you know, compare to them with what I'm finding,
Speaker 4: and you know, see if this is something that a
Speaker 4: man could do. And you know, in my father's defense,
Speaker 4: he was doing it for research purposes and scientific purposes,
Speaker 4: and he was trying to eliminate any possibility that somebody
Speaker 4: else was doing this, and they were they were fooling him,
Speaker 4: you know. But what we get in the episode when
Speaker 4: it airs is you know, the skeptic saying, well, we
Speaker 4: know there's at least one person who's made fake footprints,
Speaker 4: and then it just cuts to my dad saying, yes
Speaker 4: I have, and then, you know, as his voice starts
Speaker 4: to rise because he's gonna expand on that answer, it
Speaker 4: just cuts off to him looking at a piece of
Speaker 4: bark that's got scratch marks in it, you know, and
Speaker 4: telling the guy, yeah, he's a real So they didn't
Speaker 4: even include his full answer. All you get to see
Speaker 4: on there is him saying, yes, I've made fake footprints,
Speaker 4: and you know, honestly, it's a black cloud man that
Speaker 4: has been over his head for thirty some years and
Speaker 4: it never goes away, and everyone likes to throw it up.
Speaker 4: You know, Oh the footage is fake. He admitted it
Speaker 4: on TV. You know, no he didn't. You know that
Speaker 4: was Good Morning America or oh this is fake. You know,
Speaker 4: he admitted it. He's a hoaxer. He admitted it. He
Speaker 4: never admitted to anything except trying to do some experiments
Speaker 4: to make him a better researcher. And he got stabbed
Speaker 4: in the back. And you know, it's man, I've been
Speaker 4: fighting this for a long time, but I wish people
Speaker 4: would realize that there's an agenda there and realized that
Speaker 4: there were people like me who were present for that.
Speaker 4: And Jonathan Summerland was there as well. He can tell
Speaker 4: you the same story like he was there when this
Speaker 4: was recorded. You know, we're not the only ones, but
Speaker 4: the people that know no. But you know, I would
Speaker 4: like the air cleared on that at some point in time.
Speaker 2: When I watched that again not too long ago, and
Speaker 2: it got my blood boiling a little bit because that guy,
Speaker 2: that Michael Dennit guy, he suggested right in front of
Speaker 2: West Summerlin that yeah, maybe he didn't know the difference
Speaker 2: if he saw a bear or a bigfoot. And Wes Man,
Speaker 2: I'm surprised Wes held back and didn't just let loose
Speaker 2: on the guy, because Wes is a professional mountain guy,
Speaker 2: you know, and a professional tracker. He is hired to
Speaker 2: track people. Yeah, and to say that in front of
Speaker 2: somebody is such a level of disrespect. It just drove
Speaker 2: me nuts watching that. And of course you've had to
Speaker 2: live with that, that dark cloud, as you said too.
Speaker 2: So it's a curse upon all the Blue mountains and.
Speaker 4: I've had to live with it, you know. And it's
Speaker 4: the good goes with the bad, you know, And around
Speaker 4: that same time. You know, my dad did a commercial
Speaker 4: for Dryers ice cream. It's eighties ice cream on the
Speaker 4: East Coast and Dryers you know, west of the Mississippi
Speaker 4: or whatever. But you know, when he got some fame,
Speaker 4: you know, for that, and if you've never seen that,
Speaker 4: it's pretty stupid and comical, but it's you know, the
Speaker 4: most amount of money he ever made for anything he
Speaker 4: ever did Bigfoot related in its entire life, including the footage.
Speaker 4: So you have, you know, a nationalized scream commercial and
Speaker 4: you get some attention, and then you you go on
Speaker 4: a show like this and you think that you're going
Speaker 4: to get more positive attention, and you know, they do
Speaker 4: something like that to you, and then you have to
Speaker 4: try to explain to everybody for the rest of your life,
Speaker 4: you know why this happened, and then the rest of
Speaker 4: your evidence, you know, gets thrown out and you know,
Speaker 4: put in the garbage. But you know, one of the
Speaker 4: things that it kind of eats me as well is
Speaker 4: when people would imply, you know, that he admitted this
Speaker 4: or that he's a hoaxer. They're not only implying that
Speaker 4: about him, but then they're implying everybody in the blue
Speaker 4: Mountain evidence as either being in on it or being
Speaker 4: too stupid to know any better. And now you're talking
Speaker 4: about West Summerland and you're talking about David Bean, and
Speaker 4: you're talking about Bill Lowry dark Addington, and you're talking
Speaker 4: about Grover Krantz, and we all know that Grover Krantz
Speaker 4: is the smartest guy in that room, you know. So
Speaker 4: it's just, yeah, it's it's one of those things. I've
Speaker 4: lived with it for you know, forty years, so you know,
Speaker 4: I'll continue to live with it, or you know, hopefully
Speaker 4: one of these days people will actually take the time
Speaker 4: to look at the evidence and not listen to the rumors.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's ky just frustrating. I mean, just that'd be
Speaker 5: so just tearing your dad called the liar over and
Speaker 5: over and over. It's just got to be infuriating.
Speaker 4: Well, it is, you know, every time you go on YouTube,
Speaker 4: every time you go to a social media site that
Speaker 4: has to deal with Bigfoot, every time his footage just shown,
Speaker 4: every time his name pops up, Paul Freeman, you have
Speaker 4: someone that pops up and says, well, he's a hoaxer
Speaker 4: and this is why, and I know it, and it
Speaker 4: is and it's it's it's hard to not respond to
Speaker 4: all of them. And so it's you know, and I was,
Speaker 4: you know, and James, when you and I spoke some
Speaker 4: years ago, I was sort of active in the Bigfoot
Speaker 4: community a little bit, and when I stepped back away
Speaker 4: from it because of this stuff and because I just
Speaker 4: wasn't ready to handle it. And I've kind of thrown
Speaker 4: myself back into it with doing a book and whatnot,
Speaker 4: and I've done it to myself. But you know, this time,
Speaker 4: I have good people around me, and I've got Cliff
Speaker 4: and Doug Hycheck and you know, some of these people,
Speaker 4: and they're helping me deal with this a little bit better.
Speaker 4: But it is incredibly frustrating and not only frustrating on
Speaker 4: the level of research, but it's my father. Like it's
Speaker 4: not someone that I know or I look up to,
Speaker 4: like it's my family member. Like it's a man that
Speaker 4: raised me and I know what kind of person he is.
Speaker 4: And then you hear just constant criticism and it'll beat
Speaker 4: you down and it's hard to deal with.
Speaker 2: The connection there. Obviously, I mean's your dad. Obviously that's
Speaker 2: a huge thing. I was talking to Melissa about this
Speaker 2: the other night in regards to the Freeman evidence, I
Speaker 2: think of anyone would know that if your dad was
Speaker 2: up to some shenanigans, hoaxing things, making fake prints, fake
Speaker 2: making fake videos, you the family members would have seen
Speaker 2: some sign of it at some point. But that just
Speaker 2: isn't the case, you would.
Speaker 4: Think, right. I mean, we had an entire room. It
Speaker 4: was the Bigfoot Room, you know. It was the garage
Speaker 4: at one point, and then my parents moved into this
Speaker 4: other house and it was the Bigfoot Room, and you
Speaker 4: had all the casts, and you had all the stuff
Speaker 4: and Harry samples everything, you know, it was in there
Speaker 4: in the map and all that. And I remember, you know,
Speaker 4: as a kid, it was like this magical place, you know.
Speaker 4: And maybe I got to hold a cast, you know
Speaker 4: if I asked, right, you know, that type of thing
Speaker 4: before I got to go out with him, because you know,
Speaker 4: I wasn't allowed to go until I was ten years old.
Speaker 4: That's the first time I ever got to go look
Speaker 4: at any tracks or anything like that. I was deemed
Speaker 4: too young, you know before that. And then when I
Speaker 4: was fourteen years old, which was nineteen ninety one, I
Speaker 4: got to mix plaster and por cast for the first time,
Speaker 4: which happened to be nineteen ninety one mil Creek Road,
Speaker 4: and I'm pretty sure we don't have that cast because
Speaker 4: it's probably terrible. But you know, yeah, you would think
Speaker 4: that you would notice, right, You would think that something
Speaker 4: this complex, that would require this much work to do,
Speaker 4: that someone would notice him. But none of the people
Speaker 4: he worked with, not Wes or Dave or Bill or
Speaker 4: Darr or Greg may or Krantz or any of those people,
Speaker 4: ever had anything bad to say about him. It's always
Speaker 4: the outsiders, you know, that have something bad to say
Speaker 4: about him, or it's always the people that have something
Speaker 4: that they're losing, like he's finding all this evidence and
Speaker 4: I'm not, or he's getting this TV show and I
Speaker 4: didn't like. Those are the people that always have something
Speaker 4: to say about him. It's not the people that worked
Speaker 4: closely with him for almost twenty years. They all loved him.
Speaker 4: Nobody had anything ever bad to say about him.
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned your family, and the one person
Speaker 2: we haven't brought up here is your brother Duaane, because
Speaker 2: I've heard skeptics and critics say that that's clearly Duane
Speaker 2: in the suit or something like that. What role did
Speaker 2: Dwayne have? I mean, I know, he's the one that
Speaker 2: took those fantastic photographs that don't get any press at
Speaker 2: all from what nineteen eighty eight I think. But he
Speaker 2: also went out and did investigations with your father. What
Speaker 2: sort of role did he have and did he did
Speaker 2: he stick with it or did he walk away from it?
Speaker 2: And why?
Speaker 4: Well, man, he was my dad's like right hand man
Speaker 4: for a long time. Yeah, that hurt my dad actually,
Speaker 4: you know, no, Dwayne. You know he he's twelve years
Speaker 4: older than me, so he was seventeen, you know when
Speaker 4: my dad had his first sighting and already an accomplished hunter,
Speaker 4: and he got to go out, you know with my
Speaker 4: dad and do researchency tracks and all this stuff. And
Speaker 4: he was with my dad a lot, you know, they
Speaker 4: hunted together, they went bigfoot hunting and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: And my brother, you know, he told me, I believe
Speaker 4: one time, on one occasion, he actually found tracks when
Speaker 4: he was by himself and he was just goofing around
Speaker 4: like out in the mountains, you know, hanging out, and
Speaker 4: it scared him because my dad wasn't there, and he
Speaker 4: tied tailed out of there and like went to go
Speaker 4: get my dad, you know, because he wasn't sure what
Speaker 4: to do. But he played a big role, you know,
Speaker 4: in the earlier years of my dad's research, and he
Speaker 4: got those pictures in eighty eight, you know, and and
Speaker 4: there was kind of a rift there, and you know,
Speaker 4: they're copyrighted to my dad, and my brother never got
Speaker 4: credit for him.
Speaker 3: Are they in the new book?
Speaker 4: They are going to be in the book, yep. And
Speaker 4: one of the things that happened was when my brother
Speaker 4: got that the picture, he took two or three pictures
Speaker 4: real quick, bom boom boom, and then he took off
Speaker 4: running to go get my dad. And they were about
Speaker 4: two hundred yards apart. They were deer hunting, and my
Speaker 4: dad always said, you know, damn it, Dwayne, if you
Speaker 4: had just stay where you were. The bigfoot was headed
Speaker 4: directly towards my dad, and when my brother got up
Speaker 4: to run, he spooked it and it changed the direction
Speaker 4: that it was going. And it always was one of those,
Speaker 4: you know things that my my dad always said, you know,
Speaker 4: damn if you just state.
Speaker 3: Where you were.
Speaker 4: And I think stuff like that kind of got to
Speaker 4: him and hurt his feelings a little bit, to be honest,
Speaker 4: And then just the criticism man and the ridicule and
Speaker 4: being like the son of the crazy guy, and you know,
Speaker 4: trying to go to high school and trying to hold
Speaker 4: a job and having everyone you meet be like, oh,
Speaker 4: you're Paul Freeman's son, and you know all this stuff.
Speaker 4: And it was about nineteen ninety actually it was about
Speaker 4: two years prior to the deduct footage. And I have
Speaker 4: an audio recording of my dad talking about this. Actually,
Speaker 4: my brother came to my dad and he said, you know, Dad,
Speaker 4: I just don't want to do it anymore. And if
Speaker 4: you need me, I'll still go out with you, but
Speaker 4: I'm just tired of it. I just don't want to
Speaker 4: do it. And if you listen to the audio recording, man,
Speaker 4: you can just like you can almost like feel the
Speaker 4: hurt of my dad's voice when he's like talking about it,
Speaker 4: you know, like it just kind of hurt him a
Speaker 4: little bit. But man, my brother, he's a private person.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: He doesn't talk about Bigfoot and he barely talks about
Speaker 4: Bigfoot with me. And uh, you know, I I invited
Speaker 4: Duane to be a part of my book and to
Speaker 4: write part of it with me and stuff like that,
Speaker 4: and he he opted not to do that. So, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, I leave him alone, and you know we
Speaker 4: see each other, you know, when we can, and you know,
Speaker 4: that's that's kind of where that relationships at. But I
Speaker 4: love my brother and he was really integral helped my
Speaker 4: dad a lot in some of that stuff. But that's
Speaker 4: not my brother in a suit. Now I can tell
Speaker 4: you that.
Speaker 2: Now, you know, your dad eventually randed up having some
Speaker 2: pretty serious health problems and some amputations, even I think
Speaker 2: from diabetes if I remember correctly, Yeah, so so and
Speaker 2: and he died as compl from complications of diabetes. Is
Speaker 2: that correct?
Speaker 4: Well, that's what they say. Yeah, I mean he died
Speaker 4: of basically massive part failure, you know, brought on by
Speaker 4: by diabetes. Yeah, you know, basically a massive heart attack.
Speaker 4: My dad broke the arch of his left foot in
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty two actually jumping out of a truck and
Speaker 4: he was a big guy, and he landed wrong and
Speaker 4: he broke it and it never healed correctly, and he
Speaker 4: had multiple surgeries on it, you know, enough to at
Speaker 4: least cover you know, figures on one hand and at
Speaker 4: least five. It just never would take and he linked
Speaker 4: around and you know, by the time he got the
Speaker 4: footage in ninety two. He wasn't walking real good, you know,
Speaker 4: and he was forty nine years old and he was
Speaker 4: getting up there, and you know, his health was in
Speaker 4: decline at that at that point in time, but as
Speaker 4: you know, he could still move because you were there
Speaker 4: at deducted and he was moving quickly when he was
Speaker 4: getting that stuff. But you know what ended up happening is, yeah,
Speaker 4: the diabetes got worse, and his mobility got worse, and
Speaker 4: he had a cane and he started to decline. And
Speaker 4: the worst thing that my dad ever did ever in
Speaker 4: his entire life was let a doctor talk him into
Speaker 4: amputating that foot. It was like a horrible mistake. They
Speaker 4: told him the pain would be gone, you'll get a prosthetic.
Speaker 4: Everything's going to be easier, you know, And that just
Speaker 4: wasn't the case because his weight made it hard to
Speaker 4: walk in a prosthetic. And then he gained more weight
Speaker 4: because he got depressed and he wasn't mobile, and then
Speaker 4: he couldn't go to the mountains anymore, and he couldn't
Speaker 4: walk around, and he couldn't hunt except for sitting in
Speaker 4: his truck on the side of the road. And if
Speaker 4: he didn't get something he'd have somebody else come pack
Speaker 4: it out for him. He couldn't even do that anymore,
Speaker 4: and he started spending more time in a wheelchair because
Speaker 4: he was having problems walking. And you know, by the
Speaker 4: time he died, like we were barely even fishing anymore
Speaker 4: because we couldn't even get down to the water. And
Speaker 4: it's you know, yeah, his decline is rough man. But
Speaker 4: you know, there's a whole section in the book. And
Speaker 4: to be honest with you, when I when I wrote it,
Speaker 4: I wrote it about two o'clock in the I was
Speaker 4: trying to sleep and my kids were asleep, and it
Speaker 4: just hit me and I got up and I got
Speaker 4: out of bed and I sat down for the computer
Speaker 4: and I wrote a whole section of the book. It's
Speaker 4: going to be the end of the book. And I
Speaker 4: cried the whole time I wrote it, the whole time
Speaker 4: I typed, and I can't even read it without get
Speaker 4: a tear in my eye. So hopefully it has some
Speaker 4: kind of effect on someone that reads it. You know,
Speaker 4: that's because it's not just Bigfoot. I mean where you know,
Speaker 4: he's a man, and I want people to realize that
Speaker 4: there's a story of a man there.
Speaker 2: As well and tell us a little. We're coming to
Speaker 2: the end here, so I know you have a heart
Speaker 2: out here pretty quick here, tell us about the book,
Speaker 2: and I know it's not out yet, but this will
Speaker 2: probably are in October, I'm guessing, and maybe the book
Speaker 2: will be out by non When does it do out?
Speaker 2: And what can we expect to see and read about
Speaker 2: and hear and all that stuff in the book? Because
Speaker 2: this book is kind of the future, the kind of
Speaker 2: book weeks we hope to get in the future. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of really interesting technology buried into it. So
Speaker 2: tell us about the book as much as you can, please, well,
Speaker 2: be out.
Speaker 4: I think second half of October is what we're shooting for.
Speaker 4: And don't hold me to that because it's already been delayed,
Speaker 4: you know a little bit. But it's a monumental project.
Speaker 4: And so what we have with the book, you know,
Speaker 4: this is not going to be three hundred grainy yellow pages,
Speaker 4: you know, of all this scientific talk and pictures you
Speaker 4: know of dormal riches. What we're looking at is this
Speaker 4: is going to be a full size coffee table style book, hardback,
Speaker 4: with full size, glossy colored pictures, and we're going to
Speaker 4: have over one hundred, well over one hundred pictures from
Speaker 4: my father's personal photo albums and evidence logs, a lot
Speaker 4: of pictures that no one's ever seen of prints and
Speaker 4: casts and hair samples and pictures of you know, Bigfoot
Speaker 4: and my family and my dad and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: And we're also going to have over an hour of
Speaker 4: audio recordings from my dad's personal audio journal that he
Speaker 4: did in private that no one's ever heard outside of
Speaker 4: well pretty much me, to be honest, and uh, you know,
Speaker 4: the publisher and anyone that I've chosen to share anything
Speaker 4: with this and they're going to be in there, and
Speaker 4: it's going to be the him telling his own story,
Speaker 4: kind of in his own words. And we're also going
Speaker 4: to have new enhancements of the d DUP film that
Speaker 4: a lot of people haven't seen, you know, or at
Speaker 4: least hadn't seen until last month, when you know, I
Speaker 4: kind of showed it at a special event. And uh,
Speaker 4: we're also going to have some other footage that no
Speaker 4: one's ever seen go in this book. And kind of
Speaker 4: the cool thing the technology is that the audio and
Speaker 4: the video are going to be scannable QR codes, and
Speaker 4: so if you're not familiar with that what's going to
Speaker 4: happen is you'll be reading the book and you'll, you know,
Speaker 4: let's say you're reading something I wrote and you get
Speaker 4: to the section on you know, the d DUX spring footage.
Speaker 4: There's going to be a QR code there and you
Speaker 4: just open up the camera on your phone and you
Speaker 4: hold your phone over it, and it's just gonna pull
Speaker 4: the footage up on your phone for you to watch,
Speaker 4: or it's just gonna pull up an audio clip of
Speaker 4: my dad talking, so you don't have to load a
Speaker 4: CD and anything anymore to look at pictures or watch video.
Speaker 4: We're here audio. It's all gonna be writing the pages
Speaker 4: of the book. And I have some tremendous people helping
Speaker 4: me out with this, and I've got you Cliff, of course,
Speaker 4: you were kind enough to help me. And doctor Jeff
Speaker 4: Meldrum as well has written a chapter, Thomas Powell, Jonathan Summerlin,
Speaker 4: Dar Addington who wrote a chapter. Doug Hichek wrote a chapter,
Speaker 4: and I've written a couple you know, chapters as well.
Speaker 4: And we're gonna have some fantastic footage, and we're gonna
Speaker 4: have some fantastic footage of this baby lift. And we're
Speaker 4: gonna have pictures you've never seen, an audio you've never heard,
Speaker 4: and it may not be the most you know, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm not shooting for the best big Foot book of
Speaker 4: all time, but I'm certainly shooting for the most dynamic
Speaker 4: book on the subject that anyone's ever seen.
Speaker 3: Sounds like it.
Speaker 4: I just want I want people to like look at
Speaker 4: it and go, man, that's cool, you know, And I
Speaker 4: want them to just look at these pictures of the
Speaker 4: evidence and stuff. And you know what really gets to me.
Speaker 4: And part of the reason I did this is my
Speaker 4: dad made these audio recordings because he was going to
Speaker 4: write a book like That's the whole reason. He was
Speaker 4: telling his story on tape. And it's unfortunate because I
Speaker 4: have about six or seven hours of audio and I
Speaker 4: kin use about an out of it because, as you understand,
Speaker 4: we have restrictions on how big things can be, you know,
Speaker 4: when you're putting the book together and whatnot. But you know,
Speaker 4: my dad died. He never got to he never got
Speaker 4: to write a book. And so even though this is
Speaker 4: light years beyond I'm sure his you know, biggest possible dreams,
Speaker 4: this is my dad's book, and I'm just the one
Speaker 4: that's typing it out, you know, but it belongs to him.
Speaker 4: And hopefully we can help set the record straight on
Speaker 4: some of these mysteries and some of these rumors, and
Speaker 4: hopefully this can convince some people to really take a
Speaker 4: deep dive look at this ether and some of this
Speaker 4: phenomenal evidence that we have that doesn't prove that Bigfoot exists,
Speaker 4: because there's no proof of Bigfoot, but it certainly supports
Speaker 4: the theory of the existence of Bigfoot. And we got
Speaker 4: some of you know, my dad has some of the
Speaker 4: best evidence that's ever been found, and I just want
Speaker 4: to get it out there and show people.
Speaker 2: And it is long overdue. I mean, your dad has
Speaker 2: been thrown under so many buses, man, he should just
Speaker 2: have a bus pass because I mean, it is long overdue.
Speaker 2: But I think that your dad would be immensely proud
Speaker 2: of you. So congratulations on that.
Speaker 4: I hope so. And sorry if it sounds like I'm
Speaker 4: getting somewhat emotional over here, because I am. But you know,
Speaker 4: I hope my dad is proud. I hope it's something
Speaker 4: that he like, would be proud of me doing it.
Speaker 4: And we just get his legacy out there, and you know,
Speaker 4: the present this stuff, and you know, here, here's my thing, man.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell everybody like I am not out to
Speaker 4: change anybody's mind that has an opinion on him, you know,
Speaker 4: in any way that that's not my purpose in life.
Speaker 4: But what I want to do is I want to
Speaker 4: challenge people to take a look at the evidence and
Speaker 4: draw their own conclusion from that instead of listening to
Speaker 4: something that is some bitter old man said thirty years ago.
Speaker 2: You know, Michael, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that this book is coming out. I
Speaker 2: cannot wait to get my mits upon this thing. And
Speaker 2: I think it's going to do so much for your
Speaker 2: father's legacy and for the Bigfoot community in general. It's
Speaker 2: going to be a historic event the release of this book. So,
Speaker 2: and thank you for spending the last hour plus with us.
Speaker 2: I think our listeners are really going to enjoy this one.
Speaker 4: I appreciate both you guys, and I appreciate Cliff you
Speaker 4: you know, helping out on the book. And James, it's
Speaker 4: nice to speak with you again. And you know, hopefully
Speaker 4: the listeners had some fun and hopefully learned something today.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's set these y'all.
Speaker 5: He's straight on the legacy of Paul Freedhiman and clear
Speaker 5: up this nonsense and give them the do and respect
Speaker 5: and respect and the crazies, do.
Speaker 4: You know I I certainly hope that, you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: one of these days he gets the credit that he deserves,
Speaker 4: and the entirety of the Blue Mountain Evidence gets the
Speaker 4: credit that it deserves.
Speaker 2: All Right, Well, Michael, thank you very much, and I
Speaker 2: will talk to you very soon. I'm sure.
Speaker 4: All right, I'll talk to you guys later.
Speaker 2: Thank you, So, Bobo, that was a good one that
Speaker 2: it went pretty long. I hope our listeners are cool
Speaker 2: with that. I'm sure they are. But man, what a
Speaker 2: great episode.
Speaker 3: That is. Oh awesome.
Speaker 5: I mean I knew he was doing a book, but
Speaker 5: I had no idea it was going to be this
Speaker 5: like magnus Opus, you know, like it just sounds incredible.
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see it.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's really going to be something. And I worked
Speaker 2: pretty I mean, my chapter is pretty short. I don't
Speaker 2: know how everybody else's is. But I made a very
Speaker 2: strong point I think there because what I did is
Speaker 2: I personally I don't want to ruin anything for the readers,
Speaker 2: but I took some of the Paul Freeman evidence and
Speaker 2: what it showed us about the Sasquatch in general, the
Speaker 2: Sasquatch foot in particular. And I brought other examples from
Speaker 2: other locations and times, and I compared them to those
Speaker 2: the Freeman data set and showed how the data the
Speaker 2: evidence is congruent. What what Paul's evidence first pointed us
Speaker 2: to is still being found in other places in times
Speaker 2: throughout North America. And I can't wait to hear what
Speaker 2: Jeff doctor Meldrim is written in there. And I know
Speaker 2: Michael's gonna have a lot of great insight. They even
Speaker 2: got legends like dar Addington. Dar's never done anything in
Speaker 2: the public and Bigfoot, but she is a legitimate legend.
Speaker 2: She was there with Paul, with David Bean, with all
Speaker 2: these people, seeing these tracks in the ground, pulling tracks
Speaker 2: for herself out of like really famous trackways, and she's
Speaker 2: never got the credit for it. She is just an
Speaker 2: angel of a human being. I love her so much.
Speaker 2: I just cannot wait to read get my hands on
Speaker 2: this book.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think everyone heard that episode is think of
Speaker 5: the same thing.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Dad, And for our members, man, I'm gonna,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna post some of the
Speaker 2: research we've been doing at the North American Big C
Speaker 2: Center here about the Freeman footage. I think i'll post
Speaker 2: some of that. I'll share some of that outside of
Speaker 2: our NABC membership, because our NABC memberships they've already seen
Speaker 2: these videos and got a little taste of what we're doing,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot more I haven't shared with them
Speaker 2: yet either, by the way, but I'll share a little
Speaker 2: bit with a Bigfoot and Beyond folks in the Patreon
Speaker 2: section as well. So that's a little gift for our
Speaker 2: members if you want to become a member. Speaking of which,
Speaker 2: if you do want to become a member and get
Speaker 2: extra content every single week, thirty forty five minutes or
Speaker 2: more of content every single week from us, it sounds
Speaker 2: like a gift from God. You can join our membership
Speaker 2: or a gift from dog. Maybe I'm a little this dyslexic,
Speaker 2: So yeah, you can actually join. Our membership is five
Speaker 2: bucks a month. It's a Patreon thing. Go to our
Speaker 2: website and follow the links over there Bigfoot and Beyond
Speaker 2: podcast dot com. If you go there, you can do
Speaker 2: lots of stuff. You can you can join as a member.
Speaker 2: You can also leave questions or comments. You can leave
Speaker 2: voicemails for us. You can do all sorts of things.
Speaker 2: You can dance and wear a funny hat too if
Speaker 2: you want. That's what I do with the website. But anyway,
Speaker 2: go there and check it out. And then and you know,
Speaker 2: keep following us, keep enjoying our podcast, give us suggestions.
Speaker 2: What do you want to hear? And thank you very
Speaker 2: much all for listening. Bobs your turn.
Speaker 3: Thank you said it all Clove, I am a little
Speaker 3: long winded.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, all right, Yeah, folks, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 5: Thanks Michael Freeman for joining us. And yeah, check out
Speaker 5: the Patreon. We got some cool stuff we've been doing
Speaker 5: on there, and all right, hit like, hit share, Let
Speaker 5: your friends and family know. Listen to a big Foot
Speaker 5: clipp and bubo and until next week, keep it squatchy.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
Speaker 2: If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
Speaker 2: us on iTunes, Subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram
Speaker 2: at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on
Speaker 2: Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle,
Speaker 2: and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag
Speaker 2: Bigfoot and Beyond.