1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:08,519 --> 00:00:11,839 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,880 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,679 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,320 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:23,120 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:23,199 --> 00:00:26,519 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,280 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:30,399 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,399 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:37,159 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,359 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:47,840 Welcome to Mind Over Murder. 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,079 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. This week we 15 00:00:52,119 --> 00:00:57,399 start a two part series with forensic genealogist Colleen Fitzpatrick, 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,719 who talks to us about the Canal case. But first 17 00:01:01,759 --> 00:01:04,000 she explains a little bit about who she is. 18 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 3: We have very much enjoyed learning about the growing field 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,560 of forensic genealogy, so this was an excellent opportunity to 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,480 really get down and dirty on the subject. So we 21 00:01:17,599 --> 00:01:21,760 are very much enjoying our time with Colleen Fitzpatrick, and 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,000 we hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:25,359 we did. 24 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: In episode one, Colleen explains about her background and how 25 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,959 she came to develop the field of forensic genealogy. In 26 00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:39,040 episode two, she gets into more detail about how she 27 00:01:39,239 --> 00:01:42,120 helped break the Canal killer case in Phoenix. 28 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 3: And that is some really fascinating stuff. I know I 29 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:46,079 learned a lot. 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,519 Speaker 2: How about you, Bill, I did too. It really is 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,319 very interesting and she's a wonderful guest, and I think 32 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:52,719 you'll really enjoy this. 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,239 Speaker 3: So, without further ado, here is part one of our 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,200 conversation with Colleen Fitzpatrick about forensic genealogy. 35 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Welcome back to Mind Over Murder. I'm 36 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:13,280 Bill Thomas and I'm Kristin Dilly. This week, we are 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,039 very excited to have Colleen Fitzpatrick join us, and we'll 38 00:02:18,039 --> 00:02:22,479 explain exactly who Colleen Fitzpatrick is and why she's so 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,719 wonderful in just a minute. So welcome to Mind over Murder. Colleen. 40 00:02:27,199 --> 00:02:30,319 Speaker 4: Oh, hi guys, I'm glad that we could talk today. 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: Oh we are too, so by way of introduction, tell 42 00:02:34,159 --> 00:02:36,039 us a little bit about your background. 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,599 Speaker 4: My background is this. My educational background is I have 44 00:02:40,039 --> 00:02:44,319 a doctorate nuclear physics from Duke University. I worked for 45 00:02:44,479 --> 00:02:48,120 the aerospace small companies. I had my own company for 46 00:02:48,159 --> 00:02:52,039 many years where I designed laser systems for NASA and 47 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,159 the Department of Defense. I had a company on my 48 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,319 own from about sixteen years and we closed about two 49 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,199 thousand and five because of just the idea. It was 50 00:03:02,199 --> 00:03:04,960 a Bush administration that had more of a focus on 51 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:08,280 big companies and not little companies. We were a company 52 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:13,199 that did high resolution laser measurement techniques and we did 53 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,080 a lot of high risk R and D for that 54 00:03:16,199 --> 00:03:18,919 was an investment in the future, and that really wasn't 55 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,840 the era we were in. It was more of a 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,840 big business era and Iraq and oil and stuff. We 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,759 got chewed up along with a lot of other small companies. 58 00:03:28,439 --> 00:03:31,479 So at that time I went into forensics by accident. 59 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,840 I had my first book, Forensic Genealogy, done as a 60 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,080 gap in the interim, and we went trying to figure 61 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,439 out what we were going to do next, how to 62 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,039 open another laser and optics company, how to do that 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,240 and where to go with that. The book was published, 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,599 it was a smash. It started, actually the revolution called 65 00:03:53,639 --> 00:03:57,680 forensic genealogy these days, our investigative genetic genealogy. That was 66 00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:01,400 the coin the term. It cemented the idea that science 67 00:04:01,479 --> 00:04:06,879 and genealogy were compatible. I started doing forensic cases after that. 68 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,599 I was asked to work with AFTIL shortly after that 69 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,560 on identifying a frozen hand in a glacier Alaska. It 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,120 was evidently the victim of a military charter flight in 71 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,079 the nineteen forties. So I'd say that began my own revolution. 72 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,360 And then we fast forward till fifteen years later, and 73 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:29,240 here we are with solving cold cases left and right 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:30,759 using genetic genealogy. 75 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: So when the book came out in twenty thirteen, it 76 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:38,560 was called parensic genealogy. That was the first time I'd 77 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,480 ever seen that expression used. 78 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 4: The book came out in two thousand and five. 79 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:46,639 Speaker 2: Oh, I see, And then the reprints were later. 80 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, the reprint finally, because the last chapter was on 81 00:04:50,879 --> 00:04:54,279 DNA and how to apply it to genealogy in a 82 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:58,600 few years that had become pretty dated. We really felt 83 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:01,360 it was time to revise. The rest of the book 84 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:04,839 had a few updates, but not as much as that 85 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,519 last chapter. So in fact, We published the book with 86 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,160 the new version of the DNA chapter, which is fine, 87 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,040 but we also published that chapter separately in case people 88 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,360 who had the classic edition wanted that chapter and they 89 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:20,959 didn't have to buy a whole new book. We felt that, 90 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,279 so it went back to two thousand and five. 91 00:05:23,439 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: Really, so you said you got into forensic genealogy by accident. 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,600 How did that happens? It's a very interesting field to 93 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120 get involved in. What sort of prompted that interest? 94 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:39,639 Speaker 4: I didn't get involved by accident, I misspoke. I actually 95 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,360 created it by accident, because when you're a rocket scientist, 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,959 you can't that's your personality on top of what you do, 97 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,959 so you tend to think analytically more than other people, 98 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,560 not necessarily being able to balance your checkbook, like psychologists. 99 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:00,560 Anybody looks at it from their educational blow life life 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:05,240 from the educational background, so naturally, doing genealogy, I had 101 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,319 more of a scientific approach, not heavy duty. But I 102 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,040 came up with some ideas that to me were actually 103 00:06:13,199 --> 00:06:17,079 really simple and looking at my genealogical records, and then 104 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,279 I finally just wrote that down in a book, thinking okay, 105 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:23,199 I'll just do this book. The world probably is I'm 106 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:24,720 just going to fit right in with the rest of 107 00:06:24,759 --> 00:06:28,240 the world. I didn't realize that was a new concept 108 00:06:28,519 --> 00:06:31,720 and that I let the world fit in with me 109 00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:34,680 in a way. I just want to As an example, 110 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,079 at that time, the conventional wisdom for identifying old photographs 111 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,519 was what can you tell me about the picture by 112 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,399 the clothing the people are wearing. And there were people 113 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:52,079 that were experts and really encyclopedias on that answering that question. 114 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,360 But to me, I didn't see really much hardcore substance 115 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,600 data that other people could really latch onto. It has 116 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:02,639 a lot of merits, I will say that, but there 117 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,560 was more to it. So my suggestion was, measure the 118 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,319 length by the width of the photograph. That will tell 119 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,240 you the size of the negative and the shape of 120 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,439 the negative. Look up what camera could use that negative 121 00:07:17,759 --> 00:07:22,079 size negative. There were many Kodak cameras that produce photographs 122 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,439 of different format, so figure out which camera was compatible 123 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,720 with that format, and then find out what dates that 124 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,600 camera was on the market, and that will give you 125 00:07:31,639 --> 00:07:35,279 the dates for the photograph. Now that's analytical thinking. It's 126 00:07:35,319 --> 00:07:37,839 not hard for anybody to do that. But that was 127 00:07:37,879 --> 00:07:42,319 a revolution the way people started looking at things, so 128 00:07:42,399 --> 00:07:45,360 the book started flying off the shelves. We didn't expect this. 129 00:07:45,639 --> 00:07:48,319 We just thought, okay, we'll just write a book, okay, 130 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,800 and then we'll figure out what laser company to do next. 131 00:07:52,199 --> 00:07:55,120 But that's not the way it worked, and it wound 132 00:07:55,199 --> 00:07:57,560 up really changing the way we see genealogy. 133 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:00,879 Speaker 2: I have a quick side question here before we continue 134 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,920 on forensic genealogy. Does it bother you when people make 135 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,839 jokes about you being a rocket scientist? 136 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 4: No, in fact, no it doesn't. I get a laugh 137 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:14,560 out of it because I don't look like a rocket scientist. 138 00:08:14,639 --> 00:08:16,720 I look like a little old lady that in the 139 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:21,279 grocery story. I surprise people. I get my jolly's out 140 00:08:21,279 --> 00:08:24,600 of surprising them. So I went to go sign up 141 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,680 with the gym one day, and I was coming home 142 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,480 from work years ago. I was really tired, and the 143 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:32,039 guy had all kinds of plans. If you pay now, 144 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,519 we don't raise the dues after three years, but if 145 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,799 you only pay half, then we go up ten percent. 146 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:40,879 But then we don't have to if you put it 147 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:43,720 on your credit card. It was a little bit complicated 148 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:45,960 because I was tired, and I asked him to repeat 149 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,080 it three times and After a while, he said, listen, lady, 150 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,399 it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. 151 00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:57,519 Speaker 2: And you replied, and I. 152 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,759 Speaker 4: Just held back, and then I signed actually up, figured 153 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:03,080 it out, signed up, and he had to fill out 154 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,320 the form what do you do for a living? I said, 155 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,039 I'm a rocket scientist, and I couldn't figure out. So 156 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,639 that was like a little inside joke between. 157 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 2: Us and his condescending, snarky remark, Actually, I. 158 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,159 Speaker 4: Am a rocket scientist, so what do you know. I 159 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,399 can't help it. I don't understand what you're saying. 160 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,919 Speaker 2: And it's funny too when you said you don't look 161 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,240 like a rocket scientist, and again, I'm not in the field. 162 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,080 Although I'm a big admirer, I was thinking, I'm not 163 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:36,480 actually sure what a rocket scientist is supposed to look like. 164 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,200 I remember, I remember some pictures of Werner von Braun 165 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:43,159 from textbooks. I guess the rest of the folks would 166 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,840 look like standard issued NASA types with white shirts and 167 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,679 I think so and a rumpled black tie in mission 168 00:09:51,759 --> 00:09:52,759 control or whatever. 169 00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 4: Yes, you would think that, and we look normal. We don't. 170 00:09:56,279 --> 00:09:58,320 None of us are normal, but I'd say we look 171 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,559 I don't like to go to party where a lot 172 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,879 of people don't know me, because the subject is going 173 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,879 to come up, what do you do for a living. 174 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:10,440 I've tried lying and it doesn't work. The next thing 175 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,080 that happens is we're going to play charades, right, or scrabble, 176 00:10:14,279 --> 00:10:16,440 and I'm gonna blow them out of the water. One 177 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,960 time we played scrabble. I was playing scrabble with this 178 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,600 new group at church. They didn't know me very well, 179 00:10:21,799 --> 00:10:24,039 the girls against the boys. And every time I got up, 180 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,679 I guess the puzzle, and so one girl gal we 181 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,799 had a puzzle. The final thing puzzle was the girl 182 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,000 got up and looked like she was looking in a 183 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:35,919 file cabinet and the subject was movies, and I said, 184 00:10:36,159 --> 00:10:39,480 the Odessa file. It took me a microsecond and it 185 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,120 was right. And the whole room turned around and looked 186 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:42,399 at me. 187 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,279 Speaker 2: That's a pretty obscure answer, though. 188 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,639 Speaker 4: At the time it was and that was a movie 189 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,720 not too And the whole room looked at me, and 190 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,320 one girl who knew me blurted out, oh my god, 191 00:10:54,399 --> 00:10:57,000 no wonder, she's got a PhD in nuclear physics from 192 00:10:57,039 --> 00:11:01,000 don I I was like, Rob, I've had a banana 193 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,240 growing out of my nose. People were staring at me, like, 194 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,240 what's wrong. 195 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: If we're ever putting together team scrabble, Kristin, and I 196 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,440 want you on our team. 197 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 4: Yes scrabble. And your worst part is playing scrabble with 198 00:11:15,399 --> 00:11:19,120 another rocket scientist, no man, because you wind up after 199 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,240 all night you each won half the games and you 200 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,720 have to then endure the next hour of excuses why 201 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:26,919 he didn't win the other half. 202 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:30,639 Speaker 2: You also, I think you know words and terms that 203 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:32,200 the rest of us don't even know. 204 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 4: I would we have it, not that we don't know 205 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,399 we access them, or yeah, maybe we do. And if 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,840 you really want to waste the whole evening, I have 207 00:11:39,879 --> 00:11:42,240 a friend. I won't tell you his name, ask him 208 00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:45,360 what his IQ is, and he will go all evening 209 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:46,759 telling you about the test. 210 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:48,879 Speaker 2: He took and oh no really you know the. 211 00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:51,639 Speaker 4: Plus and minus this one valies and but he took 212 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:53,919 a different one and the shows slightly different. But the 213 00:11:53,919 --> 00:11:57,039 statistics for that one pind it. I like, I laugh 214 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,679 at that, So I just that's his Okay, he's a 215 00:12:00,759 --> 00:12:04,240 good sport. We all laugh with him and not at him. 216 00:12:04,879 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 2: Let me follow up Kristen's very good question from a 217 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,519 second ago. What were the original family things? You were 218 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,720 exploring or whatever. What got you into genealogy initially? 219 00:12:17,399 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 4: That's I get asked that. And I want to say, 220 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:25,240 I never got into genealogy. I never got into forensic genealogy. 221 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,919 I created it. I never became a genealogist. I was 222 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,440 born that way because I was born. I was in 223 00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:36,879 New Orleans, very interesting city, one of the most interesting 224 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,320 cities in the United States, arguably so m. 225 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,279 Speaker 2: H and great food and music and everything else music history. 226 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:45,159 Sure you know. 227 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 4: It was a Union town in the middle of a 228 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,360 Confederate state. It has that long history of France and 229 00:12:51,879 --> 00:12:55,480 Spain and the Caribbean, and the food and the way 230 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,600 we cook, not the quality of what we cook, what 231 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,639 we eat, the way the Catholics think, the cemeteries we have, 232 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:07,279 the large families, the richness of that history. And I 233 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,120 knew all four of my grandparents until I was an adult, 234 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:16,480 and I didn't even know how wonderful, what a unique 235 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,120 gift that was until I got much older and I 236 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,559 met people and we discussed it, and they didn't know 237 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,559 any of their grandparents, and I knew all of them 238 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,039 till I was an adult. My last one died. I 239 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,840 was thirty nine years old. So I had growing up 240 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,519 in this huge I knew their aunts and uncles, I 241 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,759 knew their brothers and sisters in some cases, and they 242 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,320 could talk to me about people that died one hundred 243 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,039 years or more before because they had the stories from 244 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,639 their own parents. I grew up around living history. I 245 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,120 couldn't get interested in it because it was there any 246 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:55,279 I couldn't get interested in it anymore than I could 247 00:13:55,320 --> 00:14:00,799 get interested in having brown hair or being female loving math, 248 00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:06,600 or I couldn't get interested in something that I am already. 249 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: Wow. So it was just it was part of you. 250 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:10,559 It was part of your DNA. 251 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was part of whatever goes into making a person. 252 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,200 You think about who you are growing up in New England. 253 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,000 When did you get interested in growing up in New England? Whatever? 254 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just part of your upbringing, your nature. 255 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you never question when you're young. You never 256 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,120 question that anything's different. You never question there are people 257 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:36,919 out there that didn't have this big family. You never 258 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,200 questioned that every place on Earth. You think every place 259 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,320 on Earth is like New Orleans, with the history and 260 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,320 the Marti grass and the traditions and the what we eat, 261 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,000 the cemeteries, where we go how we think the church, 262 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,480 the role of the church in the whole story here. 263 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:55,080 You never think that the world's different. You never realize 264 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,120 that as a child, that is what it is, That 265 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,200 is it, that is you? Is it? But then you 266 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,159 grew up and you realized what a gift that was, 267 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,360 and that I grew up around living history and that's 268 00:15:07,759 --> 00:15:08,759 where we are today. 269 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:10,039 Speaker 2: Interesting. 270 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: So what were some of the first cases that you 271 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,840 worked on that you felt you could reliably apply this 272 00:15:15,919 --> 00:15:19,519 forensic genealogy concepts. To talk a little bit about that, 273 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,000 I know you mentioned the hand in the glacier. Can 274 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:23,960 you give us a little bit more information about that? 275 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,559 Speaker 4: I can, But let me say that before I did 276 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,240 that one kind of oiled me for a few things 277 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,960 because actually the book came out, we had a website 278 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,960 in two thousand and five. Look, we were total klutches. 279 00:15:36,039 --> 00:15:38,960 This is my partner Andy and I. We're a rocket scientists. 280 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,759 We know nothing about marketing. We just wrote a book, right, 281 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,159 But we put up a website. And then someone came 282 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:49,480 to my website and said, can you help me find somebody? 283 00:15:49,879 --> 00:15:53,080 And I said, what can you help me find? You're 284 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,679 a forensic genealogist, And I went, oh, okay, so that's what. 285 00:15:57,559 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: That is, all right, had as such. 286 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't realize it meant finding people. I just 287 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,320 thought it meant identifying old photographs, all right. So he said, 288 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,919 here's the name, your names of a couple from Taiwan. 289 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,080 I would like to find them. They live in some 290 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,960 obscure village. He gave me the village ungle Bunga chunga 291 00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:23,960 village in Taiwan. They okay, and I can tell you 292 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,679 a little bit more. What I subsequently found out he 293 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:29,600 was he had something to do with houses that would 294 00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:33,000 be in escrow because the guys didn't pay the taxes, 295 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:35,679 so they'd go and escrow with the state, and there 296 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:38,759 was two years to find the owner. And if he 297 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:41,000 could find the owner, he could make some business deal 298 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:43,919 with them to recover the house, and then he'd make 299 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,320 some money and they'd get the house back something like that. 300 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:49,000 But I didn't know that. I just knew that he 301 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,120 and I was a little bit uncomfortable. I didn't know 302 00:16:51,159 --> 00:16:54,879 why he wanted these people. He said they owned property here, 303 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,200 something very vague, and I'd like to find them, And 304 00:16:58,759 --> 00:17:01,919 I asked, I got in Taiwan. It's huge, It's like 305 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,799 a bee hive. So I went to a couple a 306 00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:07,480 friend of mine who was from China, lived in Taiwan, 307 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,480 had lived here now, and I said, can you help me? 308 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,319 You have know all kinds of people out there, she 309 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,480 ran a trade him company, and she said, no, won't 310 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,519 help mafia. These people Mafia want to kill these. 311 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: People, meaning meaning that she thought the people you were 312 00:17:23,759 --> 00:17:25,599 working with were mobbed up. 313 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, she thought the man who Edward was his name, 314 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,880 who contacted me, was after these people for some bad reason. 315 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,279 He was mafia and he was going to kill him. 316 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,279 I didn't really think so, but I parlayed that a 317 00:17:39,279 --> 00:17:41,960 little bit with him to probe him, and I had 318 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:44,640 just an instinct that it was more than that. So 319 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,160 what happened? He I said, okay, I don't know. I 320 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,759 stalled because I was trying to get some help which 321 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,960 wasn't forthcoming. So finally he said how much would you 322 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,119 charge for this? And I'm like, okay, I don't know. 323 00:17:57,599 --> 00:18:00,680 So on the advice of Andy were working this out. 324 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,000 So I sat down at the confuter its two thousand 325 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,200 and five and I typed one of those names. It 326 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,480 was Chinese name written in English. I typed it into 327 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,920 Google and there she was. She was a professor at 328 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,759 a university in Taipei. So the guy had Edward had 329 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:19,759 finally somehow said I sent somebody over to the house 330 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:23,000 in Taiwan. I thought they were dead, but people at 331 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,920 the house told me they moved to Taypei. Okay, so 332 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,920 I had a little more information. I typed this lady's 333 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,680 name into go there. She was a professor at a 334 00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:34,519 university in Taipei. You really couldn't miss her. 335 00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: He hadn't done this himself. 336 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 4: No, this was two thousand and. 337 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,599 Speaker 2: Five, early stage. 338 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, so there were still people that weren't into that yet. 339 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,559 And I was like, what in the world, I said 340 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:51,440 to him on Andy's advice, is working in Taiwan is 341 00:18:51,519 --> 00:18:54,119 really tough. I'm gonna have to charge you an arm 342 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,720 and a leg for this, but I'll make you a 343 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,920 sporting deal if I cannot. I want the arm up front, 344 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,160 but if you give me four days. If I can't 345 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,720 find him in four days, i'll give you the arm back. 346 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,039 But if I do find him, I want the leg 347 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:14,559 to go with it. And he took it. He took the. 348 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 2: Bait, and you'd already and you'd already found the person. 349 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,000 They were looking for I emailed the woman. 350 00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 4: I said, are you so and so who used to 351 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:25,039 live in these states? Or did you? And yeah, that's me. 352 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:28,880 You couldn't miss the name. And so he took the bait. 353 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,440 And the hard part was waiting three and a half days. 354 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,559 Speaker 2: Your work was already done. 355 00:19:35,799 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 4: Yeah. I was blown away. So subsequently, in the next 356 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,359 two years I worked as a contractor for that company 357 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,599 that man and I found. He gave me like seventy five, 358 00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:49,640 about seventy five cases in thirty countries, and I got 359 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,759 almost all of them. I probably failed on one. I 360 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,319 actually had the guy, but I misthought I made it wrong. 361 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,559 I actually had him, but I didn't quite make the deadline. 362 00:19:59,759 --> 00:20:02,559 I just screwed up on the email address something stupid. 363 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,279 But I really did them all in thirty countries. So 364 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,240 I was like, oh my god, this is fun. And 365 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,599 while this was going on, Andy and I wound up 366 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:16,359 in Guatemala. Long story, very interesting for another time. And 367 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,799 when we're in Guatemala, I got the email from the 368 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,480 Armed Forces Lab saying we have a frozen We're trying 369 00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:28,519 military charter flight frozen hand glacier. It's out there. It's 370 00:20:28,519 --> 00:20:31,640 called hand in the snow and can you help us. 371 00:20:31,839 --> 00:20:35,720 We have thirty possible victims. We've eliminated I think they 372 00:20:35,759 --> 00:20:39,880 eliminated twenty five. We're stuck on number twenty six. It 373 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:43,680 was a cook named Olie Jacobson. He was a nineteen 374 00:20:43,759 --> 00:20:48,039 year old cook on the whole crew had taken leave 375 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:50,880 in Shanghai. They had been on the boat for a year. 376 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,319 There were merchant mariners that had delivered oil around the world. 377 00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:56,920 When they got to Shanghai, they were going on leave. 378 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,119 They got on a plane and the plane stopped the 379 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,319 anchorage for a refueling stop and then it crashed into 380 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,799 Mount Sandford in the back country of Alaska. So they 381 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,039 subsequently in the nineties they found the rack. Two pilots 382 00:21:10,039 --> 00:21:12,759 found the wreck and they had eventually got the help 383 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:16,319 of AFT DEL to try and identify who owned the 384 00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:18,839 frozen arm in hand that they had found in a glacier. 385 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: Help us out with AFT DIL. What does that stand for? 386 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 4: The Armed Forces DNA Identification Lab. 387 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: Thank you. 388 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 4: They do a lot of the do a lot of 389 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,119 the work with CIL and jpack out in Hawaii. So 390 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:37,119 they weren't genealogists they had they were working with fingerprint 391 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,200 people retired fingerprint people from the FBI Professor of crime 392 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,559 scene Analysis. They had a few experts helping them. They 393 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:49,359 had eliminated twenty five out of the thirty possible victims 394 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,200 through fingerprints and through DNA. But they were getting to 395 00:21:54,599 --> 00:21:57,720 the bottom of the barrel. We're talking about a plane 396 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:02,359 crash in nineteen forty eight. We're talking about people that 397 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:05,279 on that plane that were born in the eighteen nineties. 398 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,920 You know, we're looking at when you get to those 399 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,160 last five, the military records have been lost, the fingerprint 400 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,759 cards are not legible. You got to find relatives that 401 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:19,880 are who knows where after how so many years. So 402 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,160 they really got stuck. And when they got stuck, on 403 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,400 was only Jacobson. So I got an email. I'm in 404 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,400 Guatemala City at our hotel, and he has got the email. 405 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,519 And it took me. I'm a genealogist. Took me an 406 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:37,519 hour to find only Jacobson in the census records. His 407 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:40,880 name was Oland and it was not Jacobsen. It was 408 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,839 Jacob's son. This is standard genealogy stuff. But okay, I 409 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,599 know how to do it. So I thanked him. I said, 410 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,839 this is what you do. This is his parents' names 411 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,599 he may have a look for a cousin. Blah blah blah. 412 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:55,680 So they took it from there and I said, bye, 413 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,759 really nice to help you out. But I was put 414 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:02,039 on a mailing list of the people that were working 415 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,920 on this case, and they said, I found out they 416 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,519 traced a relative to Staten Island, a Lutheran minister, and 417 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,200 that wasn't him. It turned out that the Lutheran minister 418 00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:16,319 gave a DNA reference sample to match against the frozen hand, 419 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,359 and it wasn't It wasn't him. There was no match, 420 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,680 so Olie Jacobsen did not own that arm in hand. 421 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,160 So you had maybe four or five more people left, 422 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:28,920 and I was getting more engaged in the story and 423 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:32,720 watching these emails fly by, and then finally they eliminated 424 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,119 twenty six seven eighty nine had no fingerprint cards or 425 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,880 they couldn't do anything with that one. So we got 426 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,640 to number thirty. That was it. If we didn't make 427 00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:45,839 number thirty. They turned out this man who was Frank 428 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,799 van Zant was his name. He was born in upstate 429 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,000 New York. His father was Orville van Zant, his mother 430 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,920 was Margaret Conway. The problem was, we're looking for a 431 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,000 MITO reference because the DNA is going to be so bad. 432 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:04,119 Ad mitochondrial DNA is very abundant, and you go after 433 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,680 that first. It's more likely enough MITO has survived over 434 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,559 the years, so you go after that. But the problem 435 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,799 is you got to trace the exclusive female line, so 436 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,680 the lab. It's easier on the lab, but it's harder 437 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,279 on the genealogist. So the name changes among the generations. 438 00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,519 Speaker 2: In the in Western culture, the father's name carries forward, 439 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,519 and so it works from a scientific perspective, but not 440 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,839 from a genealogical perspective. 441 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,279 Speaker 4: Right, So you know, after figuring out Margaret Conway, you 442 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:41,480 know who she was, and having input from the van Zants, 443 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:44,960 surviving van zantce that she was one of several siblings 444 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,880 that came from Ireland in the eighteen nineties. All right, 445 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,079 now we're looking at finding Margaret Conway's family in Ireland. 446 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,160 She didn't have any maternal relatives that were left. All 447 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,200 the female lines had died out once this one of 448 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,400 her sisters never married. Another sister had two boys and 449 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,440 a daughter, and that daughter never married, so there was 450 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,759 no surviving female relatives in the state. Female linked relatives 451 00:25:13,759 --> 00:25:18,000 in the States. Okay, that meant researching in Ireland, and 452 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:20,880 that was, of course one of my specialties that I 453 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,160 had been doing for at the time, probably thirty years. 454 00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:26,839 So there was very little you can tell me about 455 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,319 Irish research that I don't already know that I could 456 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:33,480 find out really quick. So the problem was finding out 457 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:36,960 where this woman came from in Ireland. First, it is 458 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,960 a misconception that you can call around Ireland and find 459 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,920 a person that was born one hundred and fifty years ago. 460 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,519 Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way. 461 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:51,319 Speaker 4: No, but all my colleagues said, hey, great, who'd you call? 462 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:55,119 But what happened? I did find she was from Limerick 463 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,480 through a miracle. I just found one of the Frank's 464 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:04,160 brother marriage record in the nineteen thirties, long after Margaret 465 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,440 Conway had disappeared. So once I knew it was Limerick, 466 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:10,599 I could go on the offensive and calling the repositories 467 00:26:10,599 --> 00:26:14,400 in Limerick looking for Margaret Conway. Her parents were John 468 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,559 Conway and Ellen Drumm. I got that far any records 469 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,759 that indicated she would have been born around eighteen seventy 470 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,519 five or something, and all the records there was just 471 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:29,799 no Margaret Conway was born around eighteen seventy five plus 472 00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:33,519 or minus a year, and that the breakthrough came because 473 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,440 the other genealogists talked to the van Zants and found 474 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,319 the names of her brothers and a few brothers and 475 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,519 sisters that come over here, and we were able to 476 00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:48,000 match that with some records from family search, and absolutely right, 477 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,960 it wasn't. She wasn't born in eighteen seventy five. She 478 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,519 was born close to eighteen seventy. She had lied about 479 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:56,279 her age, so we were able to figure all that out. 480 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,839 We were able to once I knew it was Limerick, 481 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,519 I started calling being referred to one person, from one 482 00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:05,240 person to his cousin, just the neighbor that used to 483 00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:08,000 live next door to the Conways, to somebody else, to 484 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,319 another church, and finally I arrived at a Mary Conway, 485 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,480 who said she had married into the family and that 486 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:20,680 she didn't know enough about them, but that her brother 487 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,640 in law, her husband had died. Her brother in law, 488 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,920 Mars Conway, might be able to help me, so if 489 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,920 you can really think about this, I got his private 490 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,880 cell phone number and I called Marris Conway, and I 491 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,880 introduced myself as a consultant from the Armed Forces DNA 492 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,359 Identification Laboratory. I said, we're trying to identify a frozen 493 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:48,759 human arm in hand in a glacier in Alaska, and 494 00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:49,920 we think you can help. 495 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 2: Did he think you would fall in out of space? 496 00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:55,920 A kind of a weird phone call to take. 497 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,559 Speaker 4: It was kind of Kodak moment between us, and I'll say. 498 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 3: He said he had. 499 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:05,839 Speaker 4: He paused a minute, and he said, you want to 500 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,079 run that by me again? 501 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: A little hard to absorb, and yeah. 502 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,079 Speaker 4: He said, I don't know. Would you mind calling me 503 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,279 back in an hour. I need to think about this, 504 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,720 And I said okay, and I sat there in the 505 00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:23,559 kitchen looking at the clock. In the meantime, he called 506 00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:27,279 his wife and he said, He'll never guess what happened. 507 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,640 And she says, are you still drinking? 508 00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: What is this crazy lady from America imagineering? 509 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,519 Speaker 4: And she said no, go ahead and talk to her 510 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:42,599 because it just sounds It can't be a scam. It 511 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,279 can't be life insurance or somebody's selling you something. This 512 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,119 is okay, just talk to her. So he got on 513 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,240 the phone with me and he said, I tell you, 514 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,119 let me make some inquiries in the village and can 515 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,599 we talk tomorrow. It'll give me the day write it 516 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,359 down to write me a letter. Get me that, but 517 00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:03,960 give me the day to inquire. He said, I'm really 518 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,799 the oldest person in the family, so maybe, but some 519 00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:10,839 of the villagers might know something, all right. So when 520 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,839 I called him back, he said, I didn't want to 521 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,039 really tell you this when I spoke to you yesterday, 522 00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:20,359 but I live across the street from the cemetery where 523 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,559 these people are buried. He said, let me read you 524 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,000 and he read me the memorial stone that the Irish 525 00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:30,079 put up for their families, and it was a stone 526 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,839 dedicated to John Conway and his wife Ellen and her 527 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,599 all the children that had remained in Ireland. And so 528 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,240 I had found the dead part of the family. I 529 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:43,920 had hit the family in Ireland that was the family. 530 00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:47,039 But then I had to find the living descendants to 531 00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:51,480 do the DNA test. So then Morris said something else 532 00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:56,079 which was very interesting. He said, my name is Morris Conway. 533 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,440 My mother's name was Kathleen mcnamie. My grand my mother's 534 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:05,559 name was Bridget Cheehy, her mother's name was ann O'Shea, 535 00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:09,559 and I think her mother's name was Drum. You could 536 00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:13,680 have knocked me up, I said, Drum, And I said, 537 00:30:13,799 --> 00:30:16,319 are you sure do you know that for a fact? 538 00:30:16,519 --> 00:30:18,759 Do you know that by intuition? He said, I know 539 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,960 it by intuition. We went forward with that. We sent 540 00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:24,519 them a DNA kit because you understand that it's the 541 00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:28,319 female line right there. Because if his great grandmother was 542 00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:31,279 a Drum, it turned out she was Ellen Drum's sister, 543 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,559 the victim's grandmother's sister. The victim his mother, his grandmother, 544 00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:40,240 the sister down to the man on the phone with me, 545 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,599 through the female line, he was a mitochondrial reference. I 546 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,279 was looking for. Wow, that one phone call solved it 547 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:48,200 and it matched. 548 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: So you mentioned the concept of intuition, and I'm really 549 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,880 curious because I have a couple of friends who do 550 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,640 genealogy as well. And this is actually a question he 551 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:02,200 wanted me to ask. How much role does intuition play 552 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:03,920 in the work that you do? 553 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 4: It does? It's one hundred percent important and gift because 554 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,920 you're dealing with people, You're dealing with the stories they 555 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,119 tell you're dealing with you have to call somebody on 556 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,400 the other side of the world sometimes that doesn't know 557 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,839 who you are. You have to know how to talk 558 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960 to them. You've got to understand where they're coming from. 559 00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:29,799 You've got to be able to interpret those stories because 560 00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:34,480 there's always truth in whatever story somebody tells you, even 561 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,680 if they're lying, there's going to be some truth in 562 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,720 that story. So it's a great intuition to be able 563 00:31:40,759 --> 00:31:45,039 to listen and to really we really need to have 564 00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:48,559 that gift. We really it's very important on top of 565 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920 all the records, so it is very important. 566 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,839 Speaker 2: So that's the human instinctual side of what you do. 567 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 4: Yes. Absolutely. 568 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,519 Speaker 2: In other words, there's all all the science and all 569 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:05,279 that kind of stuff, but there's also this intuition question 570 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:07,759 that Kristen's friend had wanted to ask. 571 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the X factor of the whole entire thing, 572 00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:11,319 is the intuition. 573 00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 4: Yes, it's very important, and I think that's why I 574 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,400 did really well. Is I listen. I try to listen. 575 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,480 A lot of people would debate that statement, but I 576 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:25,640 think that's one of the biggest gifts that genealogists can have, 577 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,839 is to listen, to think about what they're hearing. 578 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: What you mean they're going to accuse you of not listening. 579 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 4: No, it's not accusing of not listening. It's like where 580 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,200 do the mistakes come from? It's just where do the 581 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:42,480 mistakes come from, and it's how can you get off track? 582 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: Something you mentioned a few minutes ago which made me 583 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,400 smile was the was Margaret Conway. I think it was 584 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,759 lying about her age. Do we know why she lied? 585 00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:56,119 Speaker 4: I think I know because that women lie about their age. 586 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,680 It's not a modern phenomenon. 587 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,839 Speaker 2: It's funny. My grandmother Anna Kelly, who's long since passed, 588 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,720 but she lied about her age. She shaved off two years, 589 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:12,200 which we thought was silly, and yet my parents in 590 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:15,559 explaining it to us, she was two years older than 591 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,440 Fred Thomas, my grandfather who's also gone now, and she 592 00:33:20,519 --> 00:33:24,000 was self conscious about it, and so she shaved two 593 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,400 years off of her birth records. 594 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,799 Speaker 4: But my self consciousness or yeah. 595 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: Years later, I remember my sister Kathy making a birthday 596 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,359 card for my grandmother. But she wrote a poem and 597 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,839 she talked about in fourteen ninety two, Columbus sailed the 598 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,640 Ocean Blue and in eighteen ninety two along came you. 599 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,240 And of course it was well intentioned and was my 600 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,559 sister sending a card to my grandmother. But my grandmother 601 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:03,160 was pissed because that was her real birth year, not 602 00:34:03,319 --> 00:34:07,640 the plus two year thing that she was claiming for 603 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,000 all of those years. And I think on some level, 604 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,679 my mom and dad both very irish. We're poking fun 605 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:20,199 at my dad's mom's sort of silly decision to shave 606 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,159 two years off her birth year. 607 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 4: And that's amazing. I can see you want to get 608 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,679 in the military, you want to, and you have to. 609 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,480 You're only seventeen. You want to be eighteen, right, It's 610 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,320 just vanity, So I don't think that's a modern Obviously, 611 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,519 your grandma did it. I bet you what was it. 612 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,039 Cleopatra was really a lot older than she led on. 613 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,239 Maybe Cleopatra was five years older. But she's not going 614 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,440 to tell you that. She's not going to tell all 615 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:49,960 her our boyfriends. Yeah, I don't know. It's not something 616 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,760 that I've go in for. To me, it's you are 617 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,760 who you are based on a lot of other things. 618 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,679 But that's not a monophenomenon. That's funny about your grandma. 619 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:00,679 I don't see what two years would be a different that. 620 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:03,679 Speaker 2: Was the source of it. By the way, on your 621 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,360 Identifinder's website, which is one of the companies that you run, 622 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,599 there's a really cool write up on the hand in 623 00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:16,119 the snowcase and the crash of Northwest flight four four 624 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:18,960 two two with pictures and that kind of thing. It's 625 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:20,239 a pretty amazing story. 626 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,199 Speaker 4: Yeah it is. We're changing the website too, so you 627 00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:27,719 know it's on Wikipedia. It's out there. Try and fill 628 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,320 in the gaps as I can. Since we're first forensicase. 629 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 3: So since we are on the subject, can you talk 630 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,480 to us a little bit about IdentiFinders and how you 631 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:39,400 started it and basically what it. 632 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 4: Is IdentiFinders is. I started really we worked together under 633 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,519 Andrew Eisen Associates starting in two thousand and five because 634 00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:50,280 of the book. But in about our eleven or twelve 635 00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:54,719 we got involved in military identifications and they required something 636 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,719 separate from just the Andy's consulting company. So that was 637 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,199 the beginning official beginning of Identifyinders. So we did originally 638 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,039 some military stuff. I've done adoption searches. I've done historical cases. 639 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:15,360 I've done frauds. I've done fraud cases, Holocaust work, Holocaust identifications, 640 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,639 and now cold cases with the police. I've actually been 641 00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:22,400 working cold cases since two thousand and eleven. With the 642 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,320 Sarah Yarborough case. Was the first time a forensic case 643 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,199 and a department or a law enforcement agency really started 644 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,239 running with genetic genealogy to try and solid the case. 645 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: So there's a fair amount of jockeying for position these 646 00:36:38,559 --> 00:36:43,599 days among the limited number of very talented people that 647 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,119 work in the forensic genealogy field. Yes, I'm not looking 648 00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:50,639 to settle that here, and I don't think Kristin is either, 649 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,760 but it is something that we're very interested in. What 650 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:58,079 is the first case that you worked on in the 651 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,800 law enforcement solving a whole case category? 652 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 4: That's the Phoenix Canal murders. Was the first case solved 653 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,960 using genetic genealogy? 654 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,679 Speaker 2: Okay, wow? 655 00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 4: And yeah, and I had done I forgot how many 656 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,639 I had done, starting with twenty eleven in Sarah Yarborough. 657 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,559 I forgot. I don't know. I could look it up, 658 00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:21,400 but I was a couple of dozen or a few dozen. 659 00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:24,199 It was very slow at first because this was news 660 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,400 and I had received such bad air from the genealogy 661 00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:30,880 community that I didn't want to go out on my 662 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,400 website advertised because it was so brutal in some cases 663 00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:38,000 and uninformed, let's put it that way, that the nonsense 664 00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:40,480 it wasn't. I didn't want to spend all day dealing 665 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:44,079 with nonsense. So I really did my work I did 666 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,559 very quietly, very well, and so I wound up in 667 00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:52,559 the Phoenix in twenty fifteen, I think late fourteen, maybe 668 00:37:52,679 --> 00:37:56,360 in winding calling the Phoenix Police Department ahead of time, saying, 669 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,679 I'll be in town for a conference. Can I come 670 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,400 over and talk to you about what I can do 671 00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:05,880 with y DNA, comparing the y DNA on a cold 672 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,880 case to what you may have on a cold case 673 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,920 to the forensic genealogy databases. 674 00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: So, according to the media reports, in October twenty fourteen, 675 00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:20,519 you were attending a conference in Phoenix and you reached 676 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:23,480 out to the Phoenix PD and said, can I come 677 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,239 in and meet with you all and talk to you 678 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:32,639 about the potential of using why DNA to solve cold cases? 679 00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 4: Huh? 680 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,599 Speaker 2: And were they skeptical? Did they say, sure, come on down? 681 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 4: Yeah? They did. I think some of the officers actually 682 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,159 were at that conference. It was issue the International Sumposium 683 00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:47,119 and Human Identification. I think a couple of them were 684 00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:49,599 there anyway, off and on because it was in town, 685 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,679 and so they were said I had to check. Whoever 686 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,519 I called said, yeah, okay, whatever, let me check. And 687 00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:59,280 I sometimes I expect, oh, no, we're not interested or 688 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,719 we'll call you back. But because I was going to 689 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,800 be there anyway, I wasn't asking to fly in, and 690 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,960 it was down the street. They were open it. And actually, 691 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:11,760 the Phoenix Police Department is so forward thinking. It's just 692 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,199 such an excellent department to work with. Now that I've 693 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,000 really worked with them some more and got to know them, 694 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,719 I really appreciate their thought, the thought and the effort 695 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,559 they put into a lot of these cases. They're really good. 696 00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:28,400 They're very excellent. I was surprised at how open they 697 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,679 were and the discussion we had. I told them, I 698 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,480 gave them some slides. I got up and answered the questions. 699 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,880 On the way out, one of the people said, we 700 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,559 do have this case we're thinking about sending you, so 701 00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:44,199 we'll think about sending it to you. And I said, yeah, okay, fine, 702 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,000 we let it in their all court and then that's it. 703 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,159 And then they sent the profile over a couple of 704 00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:54,280 weeks later, and I don't even remember, maybe a month 705 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:55,559 later and we went from there. 706 00:39:56,079 --> 00:40:02,199 Speaker 2: Can you explain how you were using your proprietary software 707 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:03,800 that you and Andy had developed? 708 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, what we had at the time. There was a 709 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,639 couple of things. There was a tool online tool, called 710 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:14,039 why search. Y search was like the hy DNA equivalent 711 00:40:14,079 --> 00:40:18,000 of jed match. Basically that why search. You could type 712 00:40:18,039 --> 00:40:22,440 in a y DNA profile and the website would run 713 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,760 and give you a list of matches and how close 714 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,320 they were. People could post their profiles in the database 715 00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:32,880 and looking for matches, and it was pretty cut and dry. 716 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,239 Why dna. You really don't have to know the identity 717 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,400 of the individual. You really just have to know what 718 00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,360 last name you're matching against. And I used that, And 719 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:46,079 also Andy had created some proprietary software so that once 720 00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:49,719 we got passed, using y search as approving ground, what 721 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,320 kind of names come up Smith, Jones, Fitzpatrick, we could 722 00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:57,400 focus down on those particular names. So in this case, 723 00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,679 I think what happened was why I use y search, 724 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,800 I must pay have to get the name Miller, and 725 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,079 then I could follow it up by going to the 726 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:09,320 Miller DNA study online and using Andy software to match 727 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,960 their YDNA profile against that data in that database and 728 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,559 seeing if that held water. There were Millers out there, 729 00:41:17,639 --> 00:41:19,880 or maybe the one I had found earlier, if he 730 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,599 was adopted, I wouldn't find any more Millers. There's a 731 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:26,239 lot of outcomes to that situation and came up I 732 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,199 think with eight Millers, and they weren't like a big 733 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,320 Miller family. There were like Millers that maybe didn't know 734 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,159 how they were related to each other. I think there 735 00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:38,599 were four from the UK and four from Germany, which 736 00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:41,440 is logical because a lot of people from Germany from 737 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,960 the Palatin Eight went out to England in the I 738 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,559 think sixteen hundred, so a lot of the people in 739 00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:49,320 the UK that descend from them don't know that anymore. 740 00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:52,360 So it wasn't like here's the family and the guys 741 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,960 the son of somebody like we do today with genetic genealogy. 742 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,239 It was just the value was giving them a last 743 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,199 name and that was it, and it was Miller. 744 00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:05,280 Speaker 3: So it was like that was really quick finding You 745 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,679 got the information in October I think it was, and 746 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,679 they made an arrest in January. Does it always go 747 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:12,840 that fast? 748 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 4: It can. It's up to the agency and it's up 749 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,119 to how soon I can. They took a couple of 750 00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:21,000 weeks to get that data to me, so when I 751 00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:23,440 gave the name Miller, they probably took a couple of 752 00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:25,960 weeks to check the guy out to see if they 753 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,719 could get a DNA sample from him if they maybe 754 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,320 there were other Millers on their list. My understanding was 755 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,719 that their list of suspects was two thousand, two thousand, 756 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,559 and that there was only five Millers. And so of 757 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:44,039 course they have been going through the list again, triaging 758 00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:47,559 and getting the people that say more likely suspects than 759 00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:51,280 others based on whatever investigative work they were doing. And 760 00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:53,880 when I gave the name Miller, that made them focus 761 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,840 on that particular name. And of the five Millers, there 762 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,800 was really only one that jumped out at you as 763 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:03,360 somebody worth looking at more than the other four. 764 00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 2: Obviously, the police in Phoenix have got to be thrilled 765 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,239 when you come back a couple of weeks later, having 766 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,000 done your research, and you say to them, I'm paraphrasing here, 767 00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:16,400 but this is based on newspaper accounts and other things 768 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,119 we've read. You come back and you say, I think 769 00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:22,519 you should be looking for a suspect with the last 770 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:27,079 name of Miller. That narrows the suspect pull from two 771 00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:31,320 thousand people to five people. Yeah, more or less in 772 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,079 an instant. Then they start looking at we've got one 773 00:43:35,119 --> 00:43:37,320 guy of the five. I'm sure they took a look 774 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,280 at all five of them. And this guy was probably 775 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,800 on the short list. 776 00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:45,360 Speaker 4: They would have been had they got as far. I 777 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,280 think they were doing triage in alphabetical order, and I 778 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,880 think they had gotten to the jays. It was a 779 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,679 slow process because this is not what you do every day. 780 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,920 You have to handle violent crime, you've got to handle drugs, 781 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,119 you've got to handle bureaucracy. There's lots to do. It 782 00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:02,320 was a slow process. They were working their way through 783 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,880 the alphabet m was still a ways away, but it 784 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,360 focused them on am Mis Miller's. 785 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 2: You had proven through repeated cases that this technology work. 786 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,239 Here's a situation where they've got to feel like, Wow, 787 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,039 this Colleen Fitzpatrick, she's a magician. She goes away with 788 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:24,960 this information and comes back and says, you can stop 789 00:44:25,039 --> 00:44:28,000 looking at two thousand people, start looking at people with 790 00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:31,000 the last name of Miller, and we've just saved a 791 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,000 tremendous amount of time. 792 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. I understand that you got to see in context, 793 00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:41,920 genetic genealogy was not what it is today in terms 794 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,159 of forensic work. So you've got to understand that these 795 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,800 people are presented a name out of the blue, and 796 00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:51,840 many detectives have told me that they didn't get the 797 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,719 connection with DNA and name. How can you produce a 798 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000 name from DNA? How did that work? I can see 799 00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:01,000 you can tell me the guy's Africa American. Maybe that 800 00:45:01,079 --> 00:45:03,119 didn't get that out of DNA, but how are you 801 00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:05,679 going to get his name out of DNA? So this 802 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:09,400 was like hail Mary play. And I was told by 803 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,719 some very prominent cold case groups that had addressed this 804 00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:18,000 case that really it had gone dead to them, even 805 00:45:18,039 --> 00:45:21,239 the brilliant minds out there. There was nothing else to 806 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,480 do unless something new development came or something. The case 807 00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:28,039 was basically dead in the water. So you take a 808 00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:31,119 hail Mary play, which is to their credit, name from 809 00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:37,079 DNA whatever. Okay, we've used psychics before, sure, and you connect. 810 00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:40,679 You give them one word, Miller, that one word. It's 811 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:45,280 so small. It's huge, but it's so small. One word 812 00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:46,119 solved it. 813 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,599 Speaker 2: But credit to you and to them for being willing 814 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,639 to try this new technique. And this is yeah, I 815 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,840 know this is five years ago now, but that seems 816 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:04,840 like the world has changed from an investigative perspective. And 817 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,519 certainly it's two years ago about this time that the 818 00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:11,480 Golden State killer case broke, But this is three years 819 00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:18,400 prior you're breaking something that's so incredibly innovative. You have 820 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,960 to give Phoenix PD some credit for being willing to 821 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,400 try the hail Mary pass Oh. 822 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,639 Speaker 4: I give them magnificent credit. Oh my god, it works 823 00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:29,079 right at the buzzer. 824 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:35,639 Speaker 2: I picture some cops falling out of his chair after 825 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:37,239 working the case for decades. 826 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 4: I understand that they got a call. De Buys were 827 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,559 in some staff meeting you know how those. 828 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 2: Are, huh, And it was. 829 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,280 Speaker 4: Late in the day whatever, and they got a call 830 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,719 from the DNA people saying can we come over to 831 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,679 see you? And they went, yeah, whatever, and they're all laughing. 832 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,239 They probably want to raise yeah, And then one guy says, oh, 833 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,840 I bet you they're going to tell you that they 834 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,079 solved the Phoenix Canal murders, that they have a guy. Yeah, 835 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,320 just joking board And then the DNA people came over 836 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,119 and says, guess what, there's a match. That's right, you 837 00:47:12,199 --> 00:47:15,719 got him, And the whole room exploded. It is the 838 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,599 detective half of them more bouncing off the wall, and 839 00:47:18,639 --> 00:47:21,280 the other one was sitting there in a stunned coma, 840 00:47:21,639 --> 00:47:27,280 a stunned Phoenix Canal murder coma, going should we go now? 841 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,559 Should we wait till tomorrow what should we do? And 842 00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:33,159 then of course boiled over to this guys and they 843 00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:36,679 made an arrest and the rest is history. He's on trial. 844 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,960 He will be on trial maybe this year. We keep 845 00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:43,119 this all kind of delays and stuff, so he's innocent 846 00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:46,320 and proven until he's proven guilty. Agree there was a 847 00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:49,639 Codis match, we have to go through the judicial system 848 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,960 to really that that match and understanding the statistics and 849 00:47:54,039 --> 00:47:56,559 many other investigative elements to that. 850 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 2: Let's take a break here and we'll continue the conversation 851 00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:08,440 next episode with Colleen Fitzpatrick of IdentiFinders and the DNA 852 00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:10,639 DO project, which we want to talk about a bit 853 00:48:10,679 --> 00:48:13,000 more next time on mind Over Murder. 854 00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:28,079 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 855 00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:29,599 Another Dog Productions. 856 00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:33,480 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 857 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 858 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 859 00:48:39,519 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 860 00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:47,360 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 861 00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:50,119 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 862 00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:52,079 Murders on Facebook. 863 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,840 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 864 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:55,639 Bill Thomas. 865 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: Five six thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder. 866 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 5: Content complete, content complete,