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Nope, we're not necessary, daid, everyboy lows 22 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:00.799 he comes to a difference of eating. 23 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:02.399 Plus. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.120 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:43.519 Good Evening. 31 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:47.680 In nineteen seventy four, Dennis Lynn Raider stocked and murdered 32 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.480 a family of four in Wichita, Kansas. Since adolescence, he 33 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:54.640 had read about serial killers and imagined becoming one. Soon 34 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.079 after killing the family, he murdered a young woman and 35 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.879 then another, until they had ten victims. He named it 36 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:04.840 himself BTK, Bind Torture Kill, and wrote notes that terrorized 37 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.680 the city. He remained on the loose for thirty years. 38 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:10.199 No one who knew him guessed his dark secret. He 39 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:12.599 nearly got away with his crimes, but in two thousand 40 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:15.719 and four he began to play risky games with the police. 41 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.479 He made a mistake. When he was arrested. Raider's family, friends, 42 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.560 and coworkers were shocked to discover that BTK had been 43 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:26.360 among them, going to work, raising his children, and acting normal. 44 00:02:26.560 --> 00:02:29.479 This case stands out both for the brutal treatment of 45 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:32.960 victims and for the ordinary public face that Raider, a 46 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:36.120 church council president, had shown to the outside world through 47 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:41.039 jailhouse visits, telephone calls, and written correspondents. Katherine Ramslin worked 48 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.520 with Raider himself to analyze the layers of his psyche. 49 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:48.360 Using his drawings, letters, interviews, and Raiders' unique codes. She 50 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:51.840 presents in meticulous detail the childhood roots and development of 51 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.280 one man's motivation the stock, torture, and kill. He reveals 52 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.560 aspects of the dark motivations of this most famous of 53 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:02.000 living serial killers that have never before been revealed. The 54 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.599 documentary BTK Confession of a Serial Killer premiers January eighth 55 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:08.879 and ninth on A and E. The two night event 56 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:11.439 sheds new light on Raider's double life as both an 57 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:15.800 upstanding citizen and a heartless killer. Doctor Katherlin Ramslin, the 58 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:19.759 renowned professor of forensic psychology and author, leads the examination 59 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:22.759 of raiders transformation from an American boy to an American 60 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:27.719 monster who wreak havoc in Wichita Canvas and went uncaptured 61 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:32.120 for thirty years. With exclusive conversations with Raider himself, eye 62 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:36.639 opening new archival, comprehensive interviews, and access to raiders drawings 63 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.840 and coded diaries. All paired with doctor Ramslin's expertise, Viewers 64 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.039 get to know the man behind the moniker, the truth 65 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.680 behind the headline, and a glimpse at the secrets Raider 66 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:51.080 is still holding onto. The documentary we are discussing tonight 67 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:55.439 is BTK Confession of a Serial Killer, with my special guests, 68 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:59.800 journalist and author and professor doctor Katherine Ramslin. Welcome back 69 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:02.000 to program, and thank you so much for this interview. 70 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:06.080 Doctor Katherine Ramseln always enjoy being here. Thanks for having me. 71 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:09.240 It's always a fantastic pleasure and a great thrill. 72 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:10.599 Thank you so much for this. 73 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:15.439 Let's talk about the origins of this documentary project, how 74 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:16.199 it came about. 75 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:17.639 Tell us a little bit about that. 76 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.279 We started with the publication of the book, and then 77 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.279 we began to look for people who might be interested 78 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:28.759 in making it, you know, visual, and we had several takers. 79 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.120 We sold the option a couple of times, and then 80 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:35.879 the pandemic, so right, the pandemic was a pretty big 81 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:38.680 interruption because we did have somebody who was going to 82 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.279 do it, and then A and E decided that they 83 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.639 wanted to do it as a four part documentary, which 84 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:48.439 that's pretty daunting, and there was a lot of work involved, 85 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.079 but in the end, the director's vision and the vision 86 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:57.319 of all the production people really came through in terms 87 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.199 of the goal I had had for the book, and 88 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.560 I thought that was really quite an achievement because my 89 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:06.959 goal is kind of academic. I really wanted this to 90 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:10.040 use what a serial killer has to say about himself 91 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:15.600 to benefit law enforcement, criminal justice, and forensic psychology. So 92 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.720 it wasn't just a serial killer lathering on. It was 93 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:25.959 formed for a specific purpose, and the documentary achieves that, 94 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:28.800 which I'm very pleased to bet. 95 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:33.240 We're talking about the book that's twenty and sixteen, and 96 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.720 that book is The Confession of a Serial Killer, The 97 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:40.600 Untold Story of Dennis Raider, the BTK Killer again released 98 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:44.720 in twenty sixteen, and the audiobook edition is going to 99 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.959 be from Blackstone Publishing. It will be released January eleven. 100 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.000 So let's get to this very very important book and 101 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:55.680 very important project that you undertook with Dennis Raider. Tell 102 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.399 us a little bit about some of the people that 103 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:01.040 were including Jim Thompson, some of the people that were 104 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.519 involved in the very beginning of the book. That you 105 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:06.439 say that wouldn't happened otherwise. 106 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:09.199 Well, right from the start, it wasn't even my book. 107 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.800 What had happened is Rader was arrested in two thousand 108 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:16.800 and five, and a woman whose code name we ended 109 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.639 up using, we called her True Grit, had decided to 110 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.839 write this book and contacted him, and he agreed to 111 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:27.519 do it with her, and they had several years of correspondence, 112 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.079 and apparently she had decided she wasn't going to do 113 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.680 this book. It had been a lot more difficult for 114 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.560 her than she imagined it to be. She had been 115 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.120 under attack a lot from because she was kind of 116 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:43.879 the gatekeeper for Rader. And I saw her on Facebook 117 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:45.759 and asked her whatever happened to her book, because I 118 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:48.680 had heard about her through news reports, And she asked 119 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.959 me if I would take it over, which was not 120 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:55.800 as simple as it sounds, because it was an easy 121 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.720 yes for me because I had already written a book 122 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:04.000 about how health experts over the past century had spent 123 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.639 a lot of time with extreme offenders to learn about 124 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:11.600 their development and their crimes and their attitudes, et cetera. 125 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.680 So I already had a template and it was a 126 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:19.720 great opportunity, but I needed to be approved by this 127 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.439 concertium of the victim's family members, their surviving family members, 128 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:29.800 because they wanted to have some control over the kind 129 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:31.639 of thing that would be put out that they didn't 130 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:35.040 want anything out there. Certainly something was going to be 131 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:37.879 and they wanted some control over it and as well 132 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:41.920 as benefiting from it, which was fine with me. So 133 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.360 I wrote a proposal. I sent it to the attorney 134 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.279 Jim Thompson for the families and told them what I 135 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:51.839 wanted to do, and they did like what I wanted 136 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.600 to do. They liked my credentials and you know, in 137 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:59.040 the academic world in terms of teaching forensic psychology and 138 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.399 being very prominent in the research arena for serial killers 139 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.959 and mass murderers. So they liked all that. But still 140 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:10.519 it was a long drawn out process. And during this 141 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.360 time I also got to know Raider, who wasn't so 142 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.959 keen about transferring all this from the original person because 143 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.600 he really liked to someone he didn't know. So we 144 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:25.360 ended up playing chess, and he also wanted me to 145 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:30.000 solve a series of codes in part because he liked 146 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.919 to communicate with codes, because he founded himself as kind 147 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:35.879 of a spy, and it was also a way to 148 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:39.159 keep prison guards from knowing what he was saying doing. 149 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.120 But also it was a test for me to see 150 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.120 what I play. But I played the code game, and 151 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.960 of course I will because my interest in him was 152 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:53.080 the whole picture. Who is this guy? What motivates him? 153 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.720 How does he create these codes and respond to them? 154 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:59.919 And so fine. I mean, it was actually pretty intriguing 155 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.120 to be sent these weird codes to see if I 156 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:07.279 could figure them out. And I needed the other person 157 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.360 true grit to help me because she had He had 158 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:12.480 sent part to me in part to her, and you know, 159 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:16.600 kind of a zoniac thing. Everybody get together and figure 160 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.960 this out. But for me, that was all behavior. I 161 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.720 was interested in everything that he would do, whether it 162 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:27.399 was manipulating, lying, telling the truth, whatever, it didn't matter. 163 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.720 I wanted to see all the layers. 164 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:31.279 In that as well. 165 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.720 That you talk about these layers that you wanted to see, 166 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.159 what are some of the things that he told you about, 167 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.440 influence from other serial killers and some of the fatasies 168 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.840 that it seemed that he shared with some of these 169 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:46.639 role models. 170 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.840 Yeah, a lot of that came along the way. We 171 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:53.720 worked for five years on this book. Initially, he of 172 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.200 course talked about what everybody knows that he who has 173 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.799 read anything about him, that he had role models. H. H. 174 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:05.360 Holmes for his his tortured castles, and Raider would put 175 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.679 his torture fantasies into a barn because he's from Kansas. 176 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.279 And also Harvey Glatman, who would bind his victims with ropes, 177 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.960 because for Rader, rope was a pretty significant fetish object 178 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.639 in his own fantasies. So those are the two that 179 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.120 many people are aware he uses role models. But along 180 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.639 the way, as we were talking and reading and looking 181 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:31.519 at comparisons to others, you know, he honed some of that, 182 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.159 and he got interested in some that he didn't know 183 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:38.120 about before, and talked more about some of the readings 184 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:40.799 he had done, and it was pretty clear that most 185 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:43.480 of what he did wasn't really original to him. He 186 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:48.559 had gotten it either out of true crime magazines or fiction. 187 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.600 He read about what some serial killers had done in novels, 188 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:55.559 and some of the things he was doing was trying 189 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.919 to replicate all of that. So he wasn't really that imaginative, 190 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.080 and you know, unfortunately in fiction and film, we get 191 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:09.159 this notion of this mastermind mentality, you know, the great puppeteer, manipulator, 192 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.720 and most of that just isn't what these serial killers 193 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.279 are like. They're just out to achieve their goals and 194 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.320 get it the way they need to get it. So 195 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:25.159 he would find ideas in these various sources and try 196 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:25.559 them out. 197 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.399 He'd used a lot of Again, he didn't make this 198 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.240 easy for you, and you had to collaborate with the 199 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:34.639 initial contact to be able to do any of this 200 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:36.559 and figure out a bunch of things. 201 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:38.879 Because he mentioned is trying to be. 202 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:42.840 Clever, but you talk about him talking about the victims 203 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:47.320 and talking about the murders and using expressions like going 204 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.960 into the cookie jar and meals. 205 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:52.960 So explain that language that you deciphered. 206 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.919 That was probably one of the very first things that 207 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.600 he did was send me clippings from newspapers and magazines 208 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:04.080 with things circled, and then he would write a letter, 209 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.519 sometimes a twenty page letter. In his handwriting is pretty 210 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.679 terrible in he'dnt bed in the letter along the way 211 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:16.440 the clues to what he had circled. So I had 212 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:18.840 to make my way through the letter and then look 213 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:21.600 back at the clippings. And for example, one of the 214 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:24.600 most puzzling to me was when he talked about that 215 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.720 my interest in recipes of the three layer kind, and 216 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.279 I thought, what, I don't cook the talking about. But 217 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.279 then I realized as I saw what he circled would 218 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:37.759 have a B, a T, or a K, and so 219 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.200 I realized, oh, that's the that's the three layer thing. 220 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:45.120 And subsequently I learned about his magical number three. He 221 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.440 thinks the whole world is sort of organized around threes 222 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.159 and that threes had somehow protected him, and so he 223 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.519 has this attunement to threes. So there was that, and 224 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.000 then then he had some metaphors like castles and trains 225 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:03.639 and such things as that, but it became unwieldy. I 226 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.759 mean we'd be talking along about, you know, using trains 227 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.320 and canyons and passengers and whatnot, as we were talking 228 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.000 about whether this book was even going to sell or not, 229 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.639 because I did have a lot of issues with that, 230 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.720 and then we had finally, when the book did sell, 231 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.480 I decided I would make the metaphor the codes that 232 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:25.600 we would use. So it's kind of an irony because 233 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:30.279 he did not want any woman kind of dominating him 234 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.480 in any way. That was That was one of his 235 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:38.120 key issues is how females threw him off ballots. And 236 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.279 there I was making the code, but I used threes, 237 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:44.440 and I used the cave and all the stuff that 238 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:48.120 was appealing to him. And also he sometimes would forget 239 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.600 what sort of this code's meant. So well, you know, 240 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.279 so this way we had a record, you know, that 241 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:58.159 we could both refer to. And but in the end 242 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.440 the irony is that I to the book to my 243 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.720 codes using when I knew it would be his preferential style. 244 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.159 You had already done with your book The Mind of 245 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:15.960 a Murderer. You already had extensive experience dealing with extreme offenders. 246 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:19.840 How did that help you in this regard with BTK? 247 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.679 Well, the Mind of a Murderer is really looking at 248 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.519 what others had done. I wanted to look at accounts 249 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.039 not by detectives or journalists, but by mental health experts 250 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:35.720 to see how they had approached extreme offenders, mass and 251 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.720 serial killers. So that wasn't really my work, although I've 252 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:44.240 certainly approached other offenders, but not to this degree and 253 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:48.000 not to the degree that those professionals had done. So 254 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.240 they really gave me role models in terms of the 255 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.879 persistence and the kinds of things you had to put 256 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.679 up with the way to approach somebody who's very egotistical 257 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.080 or narcissistic, you know. And I also trained. I have 258 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:06.440 one master's degree in clinical psychology that has a specific 259 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:11.320 type of training of really bracketing your preconceptions and your 260 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.480 biases so that you could listen and let that person's 261 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:19.720 world be what it is, rather than you imposing some 262 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:23.320 theoretical perspective on them. But it's listening to them. So 263 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:27.159 I already had really been solidly trained in that approach, 264 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.440 and that's certainly the one I used to with Rader 265 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:34.080 and would use with anybody else. Is what is your world? 266 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:38.600 It doesn't matter if it corresponds to reality or corresponds 267 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:42.919 to morality. It matters that you yield to me, what 268 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.559 your experience is, what your perspective is, and how you 269 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:50.159 came to be this way. So that's I learned from 270 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.799 looking to others as well as my own training in 271 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:55.000 clinical psychology. 272 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:57.639 Now, an important part of this is when you asked 273 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:03.039 him the crucial important question about his torture fantasies, how 274 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:04.360 did you approach. 275 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:08.039 That One of the things I did was to collect 276 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:10.960 what I knew from others. And I knew I was 277 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.360 already friends with the DA on that case, right, so 278 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.759 she wasn't keen about me doing this, but she was 279 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:20.519 one over and she showed me her whole stashus stuff. 280 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:25.559 I saw the interrogation, the whole police interrogation notes, so 281 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.840 I had the way he presented himself to them. I 282 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.120 had letters from the first person, I had letters from 283 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:36.399 other people, so I had this multiple perspectives on him 284 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.720 in terms of the way, you know, he'd spent doctor 285 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:43.399 really everything for you know, whoever he was talking to. 286 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.639 So this way I had. If you wanted to talk 287 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:50.720 about torturing animals, for example, I already knew some things 288 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.480 that I knew he didn't want to tell me, so 289 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:56.559 then I could call him out on it. But I 290 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.159 didn't call him out on it in a confrontational way. 291 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:02.720 I would simply say, oh, well, you know you told 292 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.680 them this, so you're telling me something a little different. 293 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:08.799 How do you how do you make sense of that? 294 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.240 And then and he'd sometimes get upset if we're on 295 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:16.319 the phone, but then he'd write a long letter justifying 296 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:21.599 everything'sid And again, for me, that's behavior. It's not necessarily 297 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.079 that I'm after the truth, because really you can look 298 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:27.960 at any of us. We all form our narratives to 299 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.039 serve our purposes out of earth system. So I'm looking 300 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.839 at how does he approach being confronted, how does he 301 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.720 approach being told, well, I know that you also tortured rabbits? 302 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.079 What was he going to do with that? Since he 303 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.240 didn't tell it to me, but I knew about it, 304 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.920 so it really was. And again you're looking at a 305 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.960 very extended investment of time, which very few people can do. 306 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.680 And psychologists they charge and they know nobody's paying them 307 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.240 for this kind of time. So you have to see 308 00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.599 this as an opportunity the way I did and be 309 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.759 willing to take the hit in terms of the investment 310 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.559 of time and money. And I was because I really 311 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:07.799 believe in this kind of work. I think it's very 312 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.799 valuable and beneficial. It helps us to prevent us from 313 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.839 seeing the serial killers as all collected under a profile 314 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.599 where it's a coopee cutter approach, and I think that's 315 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.160 a mistake that I'm hoping this book can rectify. 316 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.359 What did the late doctor al Carlyle contribute to this. 317 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.480 How did he help in what area? 318 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:31.359 Oh? Al Carlisle was so terrific, He's such a loss. 319 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.839 He had interviewed He was a Utah prison psychologist who 320 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:38.680 had interviewed Ted Bundy when Bundy was first picked up 321 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:43.319 on suspicion of burglary and then attempted abduction, and Carlisle 322 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:46.119 had gone to have been at the prison and he'd 323 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.880 given him a number of assessments. He wasn't the only one. 324 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:52.960 There was another psychologists or psychiatrist who put him through 325 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.640 a bunch of things. But Carlile's task was to decide 326 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.519 if Bundy might be a danger if he were released, 327 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:02.559 and so he did a lot of work. He interviewed 328 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.200 a number of people in knew Bundy and really again 329 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:09.519 gave us a very nice approach to how do you 330 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:11.720 look at someone like this. You can't just go with 331 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.400 what they say because they're going to put themselves in 332 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.920 the very best light. And Bundy was a master at that. 333 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.119 So Carlisle had not just done this assessment of Bundy, 334 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.839 but he also had interviewed a few other serial killers 335 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.680 while there, and so he came up with this idea 336 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:30.400 of how are they able to pass as if they 337 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:33.400 are like us and yet have this very very dark, 338 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.559 awful side to them and then not have any remorse 339 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:40.279 and etc. So, because he had come up with this 340 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.559 very interesting description of a compartmentalized person, I asked him 341 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.200 if I could show this to Raider, as I want 342 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.160 to see Raider's response to it, because one of the 343 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.200 things I was trying to do is get Raider to 344 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:55.400 not just say what he knew, but to look at 345 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.160 one of the people had said and reflect on that 346 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:01.960 in terms of how it applied to him. And he 347 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.319 worked hard at it. I have to give him a 348 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.599 lot of credit. When he saw Harlysle's analysis of Bundy 349 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.599 as being like an actor taken on a lot of 350 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.759 different roles, he said, yeah, that's that's very very accurate. 351 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:21.680 That really captures it. But then he responded with what 352 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:25.359 I thought was even more interesting than what Al gave me, 353 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:31.440 which was this idea of cubing instead of compartmentalizing, because 354 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.720 when you think about like compartments on the shelving unit, 355 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:39.279 for example, right, and as if they're all distinctly different 356 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.119 and almost unrelated to one another, it's just a bunch 357 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.559 of different personalities and similar to an actor. They take 358 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.519 on different roles, but those roles aren't related to one another. 359 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.240 When Raider came up with his metaphor, which is cubing, 360 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.720 it's the idea that all the faces are there, but 361 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.240 you only show one face at a time in any 362 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.720 given circumstance. So if you need to be the good 363 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:05.480 father or good husband or churchgoer, you show that face 364 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.880 and then but if you see someone you want to stalk, 365 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.319 you immediately can switch out. Because all the faces are 366 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.559 part of you, they are all connected and associated to you. 367 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:20.680 And because people like Rater are not emotionally rooted in 368 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:25.400 the notion of integrity or truth or morality, they can 369 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:30.960 make that switch very easily. They're really mentally dexterous in 370 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.319 terms of being able to adopt a different persona for 371 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:38.079 a different circumstance. So to me, not only is c 372 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.799 being easier to spell than compartmentalizing, I think it gets 373 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.400 out of better and I kind of wish I could 374 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.920 have talked with Carlisle about that, but orsay has passed on, 375 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.880 and I think you would have really appreciated that metaphor 376 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:54.920 because I think it works very well. 377 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:59.720 When you talk to BTK Dennis Reader. He mentions this 378 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:04.400 mythical figure, this minutor, and he calls it the minutor. 379 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:09.400 Sense tell us more about this mythological symbol that he 380 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:10.759 uses to describe. 381 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.920 Yeah, then the minotaur was a code name for serial killers. 382 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.000 So he'll talk about the Kansas Minotaur, or he'll read 383 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.079 about somebody like there was a guy in South Carolina 384 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:24.480 a couple of years ago who about calling He'll call 385 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:28.319 him the South Carolina Minotaur. So that's just a way 386 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.559 to be able to write about this in letters without 387 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:35.640 guards confiscating it, you know, because I've had a few 388 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.440 letters sent back to me by the prison. You may 389 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.960 not do this, you may not do that. Well, they 390 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:44.599 have to always be careful about the how he'll contraband angle, 391 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.720 And so I think he adopted that. But also he 392 00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.559 had read about it in a novel and he liked 393 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:54.920 the image of that, of this this beast that's inside 394 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.519 this maze, that's that's fed these innocent virgins, and you know, 395 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.200 he just he liked that to use to describe what 396 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.960 a serial killer was like. And then for him that 397 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.559 would be a cave like a cave monster. And he 398 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:11.400 thinks that these cave monsters are part of him, not 399 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:14.319 like he's demon possessed. That was a that was a 400 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:19.079 narrative he initially had used after his minister had visited 401 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:21.759