WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:08.640 Caalaroga Shark Media. 2 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:13.519 Why there, Johnny macn no News Today. Today we celebrate 3 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:18.239 the life of Mitchell Lee Hedburg. He passed away March thirtieth, 4 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:22.120 two thousand and five, at age thirty seven. It's hard 5 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.359 to believe it has been twenty years. Born in Minnesota, 6 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:28.640 but finding his comedy voice in Florida clubs, Mitch Hedburg 7 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:31.359 became a cult hero after his nineteen ninety six appearance 8 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:34.079 on Letterman. If you've ever seen a broken escalator and 9 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.560 thought temporarily stares, you're keeping the spirit of Mitch Hedburg alive. 10 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.880 I know personally my daughter will offer me frozen bananas regularly, 11 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.840 just to tee up the joke. If I walk past 12 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.280 a particular sandwich chain, I will say, did you know 13 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:48.240 that ducks eat for free at subway? If I'm at 14 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:50.320 a soda machine and they're selling mister pib, I will 15 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:51.799 take a picture of it and text it to friends 16 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:56.359 and say, dude didn't get his degree. Mitch Heedburgh's deadpan delivery, sunglasses, 17 00:00:56.439 --> 00:01:00.000 hiding his stage fright, his unmistakable cadence made him instant 18 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.799 recognizable in New York comedy clubs and on tours across 19 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:06.400 the country. Mitch passed away twenty years ago in Livingston, 20 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:09.359 New Jersey, not too far from where I live. Today, 21 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.239 Let's celebrate the life and the career of Mitch Hebburg. 22 00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:14.959 My guest is Jason Zenneman from The New York Times. 23 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.359 You guys know Jason, friend of the show and listener 24 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:20.359 of the show. Jason is a critic at large for 25 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.599 the Culture section of the New York Times. He writes 26 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.599 a column about comedy. You'll hear me reference Jason probably 27 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.480 three times a week on the podcast He is Fantastic. 28 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.040 Two sections here. The first part is about Hebburg. Then 29 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.159 while I had Jason, I wanted to discuss some other 30 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:36.840 comedy things. We recorded this on Wednesdays, so we didn't 31 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:39.760 talk about Taylor Tomlinson for example. That happened after we 32 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:42.040 didn't talk about milleniy episode three. So I just want 33 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:44.159 to put that in context. Anyway, here's friend of the show, 34 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.719 Jason Zinneman. So what was your entry into Mitch Hepburg. 35 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:47.480 Did you discover him? 36 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:47.760 Later? 37 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:49.959 Did discover him? Like ten years ago there was kind 38 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.000 of a head burgess sans with people quoting him on Twitter. 39 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:54.200 Where did you come into Mitch? 40 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.359 This is embarrassing. Actually, I'm even I don't want it. 41 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.200 You started with the tough question, which leads me to 42 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.200 an embarrassing confession, But I'm gonna make it because I 43 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:08.960 think it illuminates something critical about Mitch Hedburg, which is 44 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:11.680 I just found an email where I was talking to 45 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.639 a friend only a little before I got the job 46 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:18.599 as the comedy critic. So this is like twenty ten 47 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.319 something like that. So after he passed away where he 48 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.199 mentioned Mitch Hepburgh and I said, oh, who's that? So 49 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:27.400 that's embarrassing that I got this job without knowing who Mitch. 50 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.280 I shouldn't you shouldn't hire me as they because I 51 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.639 have now steeped in Mitch Heedburg. But I think what 52 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:36.680 it also reveals, outside of my lack of qualifications, is 53 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:42.759 that Mitch Hedburg was not that well known among non 54 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:48.719 comedy obsessives, and there were many more popular comedians than 55 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:51.919 Mitch Heedburg when he died. And it's also a great 56 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:56.439 reminder that popularity isn't that important. The people who are 57 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:59.199 really have a lot of followers and a really big deal. 58 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.400 Right now, the media thinks we have to pay attention 59 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:06.319 to all of them. We don't We Uh, there's Mitch 60 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.400 Hedberg is more well known now than he was when 61 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.800 he died. And the reason is the same reason where 62 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:16.319 great art is always that is one of the metrics 63 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:19.319 for success is how you age what happens over time. 64 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:22.560 Like there are a lot of people who are very 65 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:25.960 popular right now who no one's gonna care about after 66 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.240 they die or you know, ten years after their work. 67 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:30.039 A lot of them, right. 68 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:33.439 And there's going to be some people who are, you know, 69 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:36.680 not that popular, don't have Netflix specials, who are gonna 70 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:38.919 be like Mitch Hedberg where it's going to be. Of course, 71 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:40.879 you're gonna know whom Mitch Hedberg is. And I think 72 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:44.759 he was a person who the comedy cognizante knew who 73 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:48.240 he was. Clearly I should have, but I didn't. And 74 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:51.680 but when he died, but he did. He wasn't like 75 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.840 a massive star. And certainly, if you compare him to 76 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:59.360 the person he's always compared to in terms of influence, 77 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.800 Stephen Wright, he didn't have the mainstream breakthrough that Stephen 78 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:06.719 Wright did. I think you can say they're similar to 79 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:11.919 Andy Kaufman, who has gotten more and more famous after 80 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.240 he's died. I think it's fair to say he's one 81 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.560 of the most important and influential. I think Mitch Hedbury 82 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:20.040 Andy Kaufman are two of the most influential comedians in 83 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.680 modern times, and neither of them were you know, top 84 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:27.639 five ted Echelon in there in popularity in their time. 85 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.519 I think you're right. My audience will be sick of 86 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:33.920 me telling the story. But real quick, I was at 87 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.079 the car show, Jim brew was doing his radio show. 88 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.199 Jim was a little frosty because the night before Jim 89 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:41.560 had to do an extra hour because Mitch didn't show 90 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.439 up for a show. I believe that was Mitch supposed 91 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.519 to be opening for Jim Brewer in two thousand and five, 92 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:50.639 which you know, if you say to somebody now like, 93 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.720 oh yeah, Heedberg was opening for Jim Brewer, people like, 94 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.360 what what are you talking about? But I think that's 95 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:59.160 a spot where Mitch was at and you talking about 96 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.759 maybe you weren't famili with him. I'm trying to remember. 97 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.439 I think I have a false memory of meeting Mitch. 98 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:08.319 I think Mitch was up and did Brewers show, and 99 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:11.160 I can kind of sort of remember being in the back, 100 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:12.879 but I don't have a clear memory of meeting the 101 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.079 guy because back when I was doing serious comedy, people 102 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:17.800 came up every day, So you know, I don't remember 103 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:20.240 every time I met somebody I think I'm aligned with 104 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.120 you there that Yeah, maybe he wasn't as famous as 105 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.439 the legacy. So is this a James Dean thing? And 106 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:29.399 I've talked about this with some other people. If is 107 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.959 Hegberg still doing one liners twenty years later? Does that 108 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.079 translate in the age of social media and feeding the Beast? 109 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.079 And I got to go on TikTok, I know, and 110 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:40.959 I'll stop talking in a second. I think in the 111 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.360 Instagram era his stuff really popped ten years ago. You 112 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:46.279 throw up a one miner, you make a cartoon of it, it 113 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.040 was great. I'm not sure in the current Feed the 114 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.439 Beast crowd work, Feed the Beast crowd work. I'm struggling 115 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.839 a picture of Mitch Hedberg twenty five. 116 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:56.920 I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I think he'd be 117 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.680 doing well. I think he's just too talented, he's too 118 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.879 o rige. It's interesting. Chat TV came out and there 119 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.680 was a lot of discourse about can it replace comedy. 120 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:10.959 One of the first comedians that AI nerds fed into 121 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.839 AI models was Mitch Hedberg. And I was sent a 122 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:18.639 lot of oh, look, hey, this AI can reproduce what 123 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:20.120 Mitch Hedberg did, and I would listen to it and 124 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.000 I would say, no, this can't. This is actually you 125 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.959 think this is an argument fore I, And it's the opposite. 126 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:28.560 He's that good, so I mean it's academic kudos. It 127 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.680 is like James Dean to some degree. And then I 128 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.279 think the legend of him grew because he died at 129 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.839 what thirty seven? Anybody who dies in their thirties there's 130 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:42.480 a certain glow about them that like a long career 131 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:44.759 where you see them age and you know and us 132 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.560 are fast. I mean Stephen Wright again is a good comparison. 133 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.360 I think he's had a fascinating career, but we've sort 134 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.519 of forgotten a little bit. He was someone who I 135 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:55.839 was into as a kid, and it was radical when 136 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:58.800 I first lost he was a radical figure and I 137 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:02.600 don't think maybe people grasp that when they see him today. 138 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.639 You know, Stephen again one of those comedians much like 139 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:09.519 a Kinnison, much like a Dice. The first time you 140 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.519 saw me, you're like, wow, this is different. And as 141 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:14.560 I've been prepping for these interviews this week and thinking 142 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.279 about right I don't want use the word verses, but 143 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:23.000 Right and Heedburg. I feel like Right performs material to 144 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:27.000 the audience, whereas Hebburg was in it with us, especially 145 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.680 because he would do busted jokes and be like, you know, hey, 146 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.519 I got to punch that here. That didn't work, and 147 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:34.279 you know, it would just be like, okay, all right, 148 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.079 yeah it didn't work. You're right, buddy, but I got 149 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:38.439 your back, whereas I feel like Steven is just doing 150 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:40.360 his thing on a stage, almost like a one man show. 151 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.040 This is actually one of my favorite subjects, which is 152 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.399 it's a real comedy nerd question, what's the difference between 153 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.639 Stephen Wright and Mitch Hedberg? And I've asked a lot 154 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.519 of comedians because of course they're, you know, very influential, 155 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.879 both of them, and I looked them up a Bobcat golfway, 156 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.959 as told he said, when you watch Mitch, you learned 157 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.360 who he was, and you got you had some speculation 158 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.480 over like who's this guy voted for? Was his childhood 159 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.000 with Stephen Wright? He did not let you in. I 160 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.199 think you're absolutely right, by the way about the performed 161 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:16.079 material versus Jessel Nick, who was a huge, huge, right, 162 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:18.399 you know, right was a huge influence on him. He 163 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.800 said to me, I think they're compared to each other 164 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:23.680 because they both told absurd, non secretars. Mitch Hedberg had 165 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.199 the appearance of mentally fumbling around on stage looking for 166 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.600 his jokes and figuring out as he went along. Right 167 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:32.519 was deliberate, the sort of goes to what you're saying. 168 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.840 He was serious, He was not fucking around. Mitch just 169 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:37.879 walked on stage from a party. And of course he's 170 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:39.799 not using it as an insult. He's saying that was 171 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:42.879 the vibe he gave. Right just walked on stage from 172 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:46.480 another planet. I think that I think that's a pretty 173 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:51.480 good explanation. But maybe if you're just looking at it 174 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.759 from a legacy standpoint, and this is gonna sound cold, 175 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:59.840 but dying was a good career move because because. 176 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:00.639 You look at young comics. 177 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:02.440 I mean, there's a lot of comics I follow on 178 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:11.879 substack who are often analyzing mulling over philosophizing about Mitch Hedberg. 179 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.039 The one I want to shout out because I think 180 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.159 it is a comic that your listener should also look 181 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:21.840 up is Mike Kaplan, who has a great substack. He's 182 00:09:21.879 --> 00:09:25.639 a huge Hedburg fan and he recently had a substack 183 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:27.519 about him and he said this. He said, his jokes 184 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:32.840 are songs infinitely re listenable, where so much comedy requires 185 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:39.440 surprise to have his desired effect. Hedberg's has somehow transcended that. 186 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.159 That is fascinating, and I think he's right. You can 187 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:47.240 listen to you know, an elevator can never break. It 188 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.399 just turns into stairs, and even if you've heard it before, 189 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.120 there's still a pleasure in hearing it again. They are 190 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.879 more like songs, and that's very high praise, because once 191 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.080 you take the surprise out of comedy, you take quite 192 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.000 a bit out of it. I think, you know what 193 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:06.279 Mike does his sub sact is then he goes on 194 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:10.200 to analyze some jokes. It looks at the philosophy of them. 195 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:14.080 They actually have a depth to them, especially in how 196 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:16.639 they kind of mix. And this is in part I'm 197 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.039 influenced by Mike's writing on this, like the ordinary and 198 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:25.480 the metaphysical in a way that rewards sustained analysis and thinking. 199 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.600 I never thought of that that it's it is like 200 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.519 music that I don't mind listening to the stuff over 201 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:34.519 and over and part of the production. I think it's 202 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.159 strategic grow Locations is the one with the bass, which 203 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:40.080 just gives the whole album a vibe and helps bring 204 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:44.120 those one liners to life and that whole low key 205 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:44.879 party vibe. 206 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:46.279 Yep, I think that's true. 207 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:49.039 You got me thinking too about you know what if 208 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.840 Island And when you pointed out Mitch was thirty seven, 209 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.120 You're trying to picture fifty seven year old Mitch Hedberg, 210 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.960 you know, have the same hairstyle. It's like when you 211 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:00.279 try and picture eighty year old John Lennon and if 212 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.559 you know, maybe looking more like Larry David. It's just 213 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:05.639 it's so hard. These people get fixed in your mind 214 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:06.480 at a certain age. 215 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:07.919 It's true. 216 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.799 I mean, what's interesting right is and I don't think 217 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:13.200 I would get too much argument about this. His is 218 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:15.799 the kind of comedy that doesn't age in the sense 219 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.559 that if you didn't like it in nineteen ninety eight, 220 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.399 you're still not gonna like it. If you did like it, 221 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.879 it still works now. It doesn't need a lot of context. 222 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.720 It's often based on logic. It's based on playing with language, 223 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.360 on the slipperiness of language. Often when people like every 224 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:34.200 once in a while, I'll have somebody say like, oh, 225 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:36.759 I have like a teenager's getting into comedy. What would 226 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:39.679 you suggest in the list of people who I say, 227 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:43.120 it's Mitch Heberg. Now, granted, maybe he'd evolve and he 228 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.000 would become you know, he'd be talking about topical stuff, 229 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.039 or maybe he would move in a personal direction or something. 230 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:51.480 But my suspicion as he wouldn't. 231 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:52.600 We'll never know. 232 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.320 I'm hearing the base in my head and somebody going, 233 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:57.360 I got aheaded to a single. 234 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.399 Chat exactly exactly the amazing. 235 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.240 I think one thing about Mitch that during the soul 236 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:06.559 searching this week that has revealed itself is he's one 237 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:09.840 comedian that appeals to all the camps, you know, the 238 00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.000 comedy seller people, the brick wall smoking cigarettes people, the 239 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.320 la al d people, the blue collar guys. I think 240 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:19.440 everybody liked and respected Mitch's comedy. 241 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.639 Well, okay, let's I'm push back in that. 242 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:24.720 So please please, I love this discussion. 243 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.480 Go yes, I think you're right. 244 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:29.480 But that's in part because he died in two thousand 245 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:34.080 and five before not just comedy but the world fragmented. 246 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:38.000 Would everyone still love him so much if he was 247 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:41.720 still around and he was, you know, toring either taking 248 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:44.200 a side in these various culture war battles that we 249 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.159 all know of. You know, I don't know. I think 250 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.759 what's significant about him is that he's at the head 251 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:55.960 of an entire family tree of comedy that is incredibly 252 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.879 legible to us today but wasn't not that long ago. 253 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.440 And you know, it's taking a Taro, it's Sheng Wang, 254 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:07.399 it's Todd Berry, it's even Hannibal, It'smitri Martin, this kind 255 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:13.000 of dead pen one liner surrealists like, Now, that's the 256 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.720 type of comedy. It's yes, he hung out with people 257 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.919 as diverse as David Tel and Todd Berry. 258 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:19.879 I think it deserves some credit. He has his work, 259 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:21.159 and Mitch has shared some. 260 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.960 Qualities, but I really think he helped invent a branch 261 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:29.799 of esthetic comedy. And there's still people who now are 262 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:32.240 coming up who are like, Okay, that's a legitimate I 263 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:36.039 don't need to be weird la clown or New York 264 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.720 club comic. There's this other option, and if you're good 265 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.039 at it, people will respect you. 266 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:42.720 And that's true. 267 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.279 I think that gets overlooked in a lot of the 268 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.879 culture war stuff, is that people there's club comics who 269 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:52.519 think Chris Fleming is great, and there's alt comics who 270 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.519 think Bill Burr is incredible if you're really good in fact, 271 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:59.960 to be honest with you, not that this matters that much, 272 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.399 but like I find that the alt people are easier 273 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:06.519 to give up praise for someone who's totally different than 274 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.679 them in the club, same for the club people, because 275 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.279 it's less there's less competitive, right. It's the advantage of 276 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:12.960 doing what we do is that we don't really have 277 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.440 a dog in one of the fights. We can actually 278 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.200 call us balls and strikes more with more fairness in 279 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.600 my opinion. But so I think, you know, in the 280 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.840 reason Mitch to take it full circle, the reason Mitch 281 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.840 is sort of a safe harbor to praise is because 282 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.039 he's on the other side of life where I think 283 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:38.759 he both seems very modern, but he never got on 284 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.879 the you know, he never became joined the social media 285 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:43.279 madness that was to come. 286 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:46.679 So in the age of AI, there's a YouTube page 287 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:49.679 almost Beatle songs. The other day they released this George 288 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.000 Harrison thing that they brought to life, pulling stems from 289 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.720 different things. Absolutely incredible. So we've got enough audio of Mitch, 290 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.360 and I know for a fact there at least was 291 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.000 a notebook of Hedberg's material that he never got to perform. 292 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:05.200 Lynn Shawcroft showed me the notebook. I saw it, if 293 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:07.200 I'm remembering correctly, and you know, I don't want to 294 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.399 go all Brian Williams here, but I think at Sirius 295 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.360 we did a special where some comedians performed some of 296 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.840 those jokes one time. I think that happened. But anyway, 297 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.600 the notebook exists and we have AI. Would you want 298 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.639 to hear Ai Hedburg deliver those or. 299 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:28.200 No, oh boy, this is a George Carlin estate. Would 300 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.879 not be for this, That's for sure, that's true. That's 301 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:33.279 I got to say. I'm not. 302 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.519 But it's his material. So the Carlon Flink wasn't Carlin's material. 303 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:40.240 This is Hegberg's material. So I'll give you an example 304 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:43.840 on Netflix, the Churchhill documentary. I thought was amazing because 305 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.679 they used Churchill's books and had Ai Churchhill voice it, 306 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.600 and I thought it really worked well. You still have 307 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.360 the issue of timing performing the words of Mitch Hebburg 308 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:54.679 is that the devil. 309 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.240 It's a great question, and we're really struggling with these issues, 310 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.320 and it turns out that there's so much more AI 311 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.840 in our culture that we consume that we think it is. 312 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.279 We found this out with the Academy Awards recently. It 313 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.320 turns out the Bob Dylan movies got AI, and they 314 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.879 all got in the idea of taking these regis stands 315 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:13.840 of that AI is sort of moot. But I guess 316 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.279 if we're to take Mike Kaplan's point, his jokes are 317 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.440 like songs, I think I'd be fine for it as 318 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.360 long as it's labeled as such, and so it's like 319 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.000 a little bit like covers, and why not listen to it. 320 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.080 I do think that there is a human element to 321 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.679 delivery and to pace and to how he would that. 322 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.440 I'm open to AI having a positive impact on culture, 323 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.399 but I'm more on the skeptical side among friends when 324 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:39.159 we talk about this stuff. I have friends who are 325 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:42.919 slowly using AI in ways that are not necessary but 326 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.000 make their work a little bit easier. I'm a hardliner 327 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.279 except where there are the few exceptions. But I feel like, 328 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.120 unless you really need to use it, slippery slope. 329 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.240 And I think the question would be who's putting it together? 330 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.000 When it's Paul mccurtney saying I think John might have 331 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.519 done this, George might have done that. That's one thing. 332 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.639 If it's some rando, that's a whole other thing entirely. 333 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:05.920 Last question on Hegberg that I want to ask you 334 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:09.519 about a few other things is do you think he 335 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.000 is more popular than he was ten years ago? I'm 336 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:13.799 not talking about twenty years ago. I feel like ten 337 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.119 years ago he was in the zeitgeisten on the internet, 338 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.240 and maybe we had better Twitter back then than we 339 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.839 have now. I feel like he is starting to become 340 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.480 a comedian of the past. A name that keeps popping 341 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.880 to my mind this week is Richard Jenny, who was 342 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.559 huge and nobody ever, ever, ever says the words Richard 343 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:35.319 and Jenny in a sentence anymore. Are we starting to 344 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:37.079 get away from Hebburg or is there more of a 345 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:37.720 legacy here? 346 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.000 I think you have a good point that Twitter helped him, 347 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.000 because he really was perfect for Twitter. But Twitter now 348 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.279 is sort of a ghost town for comedy at least, 349 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.400 so maybe he's plateaued. But I don't think he's not 350 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.960 like Richard Jenny. As I said, this Mike Kaplan thing 351 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:58.240 was just like a week ago, and I think Matt 352 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:01.960 Ruby had something on a substack about so he's still 353 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.279 cited and talked about the analog and I'm working on 354 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.279 a piece right now. But Andy Coller is a quick 355 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.759 thing on Andy Kaufman, and I don't know what you 356 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:14.240 think Andy Kaufman. I think Andy Coffin's bigger now than 357 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.279 he ever has been. 358 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:18.880 The Man on the Moon movie surely helped him. There 359 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:21.640 was that renaissance there. I think the Kaufman Awards definitely 360 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.440 helped when that was. That's a little more visible than 361 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.559 it is now, you know, I remember the earlier as 362 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.680 Kristin Shawl for example, being one of the winners of that. 363 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.839 But yeah, the Kaufman doc coming back. Depending on what 364 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.240 Bob's Muda was doing on any particular day, there'd be 365 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.400 a lot of Andy or no Andy at all. But 366 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:39.720 I feel like Kaufman's got a legacy. 367 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.400 Sure, I think this Kaufman doc is very good, and 368 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.759 I think you could point to figures like Sasha Baron Cohen, 369 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:50.480 Nathan Fielder, the whole sort of trolling aesthetic, the sort 370 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:53.079 of blurring of lines between real and fake. It feels 371 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.799 like Andy Kaufman really anticipated a lot of what's in 372 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.440 the culture now in a way that gets him talked about, 373 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.160 which was first of all, I think that Stephen Wright 374 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.400 did get there before Mitch, which is relevant. I remember 375 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.960 asking that Stephen right about Edburg and he wasn't very expansive, 376 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.440 but he did say something like, it's nice that I 377 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.200 was influencer. You know, he made it clear that he 378 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.880 was there before, and he's not wrong. He's not wrong. 379 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.119 So yeah, maybe his legacy is not as fixed, but 380 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.880 I still think he's in the cannon. 381 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.559 Anytime I look at a top ex comedians of whatever 382 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.519 time period, you know, he's clearly up there. We could 383 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.920 spend a year debating what such a list would look like, 384 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.319 but he's definitely way up there. 385 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:35.319 Yeah, for sure. 386 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.480 I would take a quick break, come back, and I 387 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.119 want to talk to Jason about some other things. So 388 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.119 I believe you were the Conan Marktwain Awards. 389 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.400 Like I was a snuck in was the room. They 390 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.000 didn't give me a ticket, so I had to go 391 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.079 as a plus one. They rejected my offer for a ticket. 392 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:53.920 I don't know, it's crazy. I thought it was a 393 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:54.519 little crazy. 394 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.720 Sorry, my brain just fried. It's not like you're some 395 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.279 dude in a basement doing some dopey podcast. It's the 396 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:01.200 New York Times. 397 00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.920 Well, they actually gave me this is probably two inside 398 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.119 baseball to care about. But they actually gave it to 399 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.799 a reporter from the Times, and they said they couldn't 400 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.640 give it to me because of they gave it to her, 401 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:13.640