Speaker 1: Caalaroga Shark Media.
Speaker 2: Why there, Johnny macn no News Today. Today we celebrate
Speaker 2: the life of Mitchell Lee Hedburg. He passed away March thirtieth,
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, at age thirty seven. It's hard
Speaker 2: to believe it has been twenty years. Born in Minnesota,
Speaker 2: but finding his comedy voice in Florida clubs, Mitch Hedburg
Speaker 2: became a cult hero after his nineteen ninety six appearance
Speaker 2: on Letterman. If you've ever seen a broken escalator and
Speaker 2: thought temporarily stares, you're keeping the spirit of Mitch Hedburg alive.
Speaker 2: I know personally my daughter will offer me frozen bananas regularly,
Speaker 2: just to tee up the joke. If I walk past
Speaker 2: a particular sandwich chain, I will say, did you know
Speaker 2: that ducks eat for free at subway? If I'm at
Speaker 2: a soda machine and they're selling mister pib, I will
Speaker 2: take a picture of it and text it to friends
Speaker 2: and say, dude didn't get his degree. Mitch Heedburgh's deadpan delivery, sunglasses,
Speaker 2: hiding his stage fright, his unmistakable cadence made him instant
Speaker 2: recognizable in New York comedy clubs and on tours across
Speaker 2: the country. Mitch passed away twenty years ago in Livingston,
Speaker 2: New Jersey, not too far from where I live. Today,
Speaker 2: Let's celebrate the life and the career of Mitch Hebburg.
Speaker 2: My guest is Jason Zenneman from The New York Times.
Speaker 2: You guys know Jason, friend of the show and listener
Speaker 2: of the show. Jason is a critic at large for
Speaker 2: the Culture section of the New York Times. He writes
Speaker 2: a column about comedy. You'll hear me reference Jason probably
Speaker 2: three times a week on the podcast He is Fantastic.
Speaker 2: Two sections here. The first part is about Hebburg. Then
Speaker 2: while I had Jason, I wanted to discuss some other
Speaker 2: comedy things. We recorded this on Wednesdays, so we didn't
Speaker 2: talk about Taylor Tomlinson for example. That happened after we
Speaker 2: didn't talk about milleniy episode three. So I just want
Speaker 2: to put that in context. Anyway, here's friend of the show,
Speaker 2: Jason Zinneman. So what was your entry into Mitch Hepburg.
Speaker 2: Did you discover him?
Speaker 1: Later?
Speaker 2: Did discover him? Like ten years ago there was kind
Speaker 2: of a head burgess sans with people quoting him on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Where did you come into Mitch?
Speaker 3: This is embarrassing. Actually, I'm even I don't want it.
Speaker 3: You started with the tough question, which leads me to
Speaker 3: an embarrassing confession, But I'm gonna make it because I
Speaker 3: think it illuminates something critical about Mitch Hedburg, which is
Speaker 3: I just found an email where I was talking to
Speaker 3: a friend only a little before I got the job
Speaker 3: as the comedy critic. So this is like twenty ten
Speaker 3: something like that. So after he passed away where he
Speaker 3: mentioned Mitch Hepburgh and I said, oh, who's that? So
Speaker 3: that's embarrassing that I got this job without knowing who Mitch.
Speaker 3: I shouldn't you shouldn't hire me as they because I
Speaker 3: have now steeped in Mitch Heedburg. But I think what
Speaker 3: it also reveals, outside of my lack of qualifications, is
Speaker 3: that Mitch Hedburg was not that well known among non
Speaker 3: comedy obsessives, and there were many more popular comedians than
Speaker 3: Mitch Heedburg when he died. And it's also a great
Speaker 3: reminder that popularity isn't that important. The people who are
Speaker 3: really have a lot of followers and a really big deal.
Speaker 3: Right now, the media thinks we have to pay attention
Speaker 3: to all of them. We don't We Uh, there's Mitch
Speaker 3: Hedberg is more well known now than he was when
Speaker 3: he died. And the reason is the same reason where
Speaker 3: great art is always that is one of the metrics
Speaker 3: for success is how you age what happens over time.
Speaker 3: Like there are a lot of people who are very
Speaker 3: popular right now who no one's gonna care about after
Speaker 3: they die or you know, ten years after their work.
Speaker 1: A lot of them, right.
Speaker 3: And there's going to be some people who are, you know,
Speaker 3: not that popular, don't have Netflix specials, who are gonna
Speaker 3: be like Mitch Hedberg where it's going to be. Of course,
Speaker 3: you're gonna know whom Mitch Hedberg is. And I think
Speaker 3: he was a person who the comedy cognizante knew who
Speaker 3: he was. Clearly I should have, but I didn't. And
Speaker 3: but when he died, but he did. He wasn't like
Speaker 3: a massive star. And certainly, if you compare him to
Speaker 3: the person he's always compared to in terms of influence,
Speaker 3: Stephen Wright, he didn't have the mainstream breakthrough that Stephen
Speaker 3: Wright did. I think you can say they're similar to
Speaker 3: Andy Kaufman, who has gotten more and more famous after
Speaker 3: he's died. I think it's fair to say he's one
Speaker 3: of the most important and influential. I think Mitch Hedbury
Speaker 3: Andy Kaufman are two of the most influential comedians in
Speaker 3: modern times, and neither of them were you know, top
Speaker 3: five ted Echelon in there in popularity in their time.
Speaker 2: I think you're right. My audience will be sick of
Speaker 2: me telling the story. But real quick, I was at
Speaker 2: the car show, Jim brew was doing his radio show.
Speaker 2: Jim was a little frosty because the night before Jim
Speaker 2: had to do an extra hour because Mitch didn't show
Speaker 2: up for a show. I believe that was Mitch supposed
Speaker 2: to be opening for Jim Brewer in two thousand and five,
Speaker 2: which you know, if you say to somebody now like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, Heedberg was opening for Jim Brewer, people like,
Speaker 2: what what are you talking about? But I think that's
Speaker 2: a spot where Mitch was at and you talking about
Speaker 2: maybe you weren't famili with him. I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 2: I think I have a false memory of meeting Mitch.
Speaker 2: I think Mitch was up and did Brewers show, and
Speaker 2: I can kind of sort of remember being in the back,
Speaker 2: but I don't have a clear memory of meeting the
Speaker 2: guy because back when I was doing serious comedy, people
Speaker 2: came up every day, So you know, I don't remember
Speaker 2: every time I met somebody I think I'm aligned with
Speaker 2: you there that Yeah, maybe he wasn't as famous as
Speaker 2: the legacy. So is this a James Dean thing? And
Speaker 2: I've talked about this with some other people. If is
Speaker 2: Hegberg still doing one liners twenty years later? Does that
Speaker 2: translate in the age of social media and feeding the Beast?
Speaker 2: And I got to go on TikTok, I know, and
Speaker 2: I'll stop talking in a second. I think in the
Speaker 2: Instagram era his stuff really popped ten years ago. You
Speaker 2: throw up a one miner, you make a cartoon of it, it
Speaker 2: was great. I'm not sure in the current Feed the
Speaker 2: Beast crowd work, Feed the Beast crowd work. I'm struggling
Speaker 2: a picture of Mitch Hedberg twenty five.
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I think he'd be
Speaker 3: doing well. I think he's just too talented, he's too
Speaker 3: o rige. It's interesting. Chat TV came out and there
Speaker 3: was a lot of discourse about can it replace comedy.
Speaker 3: One of the first comedians that AI nerds fed into
Speaker 3: AI models was Mitch Hedberg. And I was sent a
Speaker 3: lot of oh, look, hey, this AI can reproduce what
Speaker 3: Mitch Hedberg did, and I would listen to it and
Speaker 3: I would say, no, this can't. This is actually you
Speaker 3: think this is an argument fore I, And it's the opposite.
Speaker 3: He's that good, so I mean it's academic kudos. It
Speaker 3: is like James Dean to some degree. And then I
Speaker 3: think the legend of him grew because he died at
Speaker 3: what thirty seven? Anybody who dies in their thirties there's
Speaker 3: a certain glow about them that like a long career
Speaker 3: where you see them age and you know and us
Speaker 3: are fast. I mean Stephen Wright again is a good comparison.
Speaker 3: I think he's had a fascinating career, but we've sort
Speaker 3: of forgotten a little bit. He was someone who I
Speaker 3: was into as a kid, and it was radical when
Speaker 3: I first lost he was a radical figure and I
Speaker 3: don't think maybe people grasp that when they see him today.
Speaker 2: You know, Stephen again one of those comedians much like
Speaker 2: a Kinnison, much like a Dice. The first time you
Speaker 2: saw me, you're like, wow, this is different. And as
Speaker 2: I've been prepping for these interviews this week and thinking
Speaker 2: about right I don't want use the word verses, but
Speaker 2: Right and Heedburg. I feel like Right performs material to
Speaker 2: the audience, whereas Hebburg was in it with us, especially
Speaker 2: because he would do busted jokes and be like, you know, hey,
Speaker 2: I got to punch that here. That didn't work, and
Speaker 2: you know, it would just be like, okay, all right,
Speaker 2: yeah it didn't work. You're right, buddy, but I got
Speaker 2: your back, whereas I feel like Steven is just doing
Speaker 2: his thing on a stage, almost like a one man show.
Speaker 3: This is actually one of my favorite subjects, which is
Speaker 3: it's a real comedy nerd question, what's the difference between
Speaker 3: Stephen Wright and Mitch Hedberg? And I've asked a lot
Speaker 3: of comedians because of course they're, you know, very influential,
Speaker 3: both of them, and I looked them up a Bobcat golfway,
Speaker 3: as told he said, when you watch Mitch, you learned
Speaker 3: who he was, and you got you had some speculation
Speaker 3: over like who's this guy voted for? Was his childhood
Speaker 3: with Stephen Wright? He did not let you in. I
Speaker 3: think you're absolutely right, by the way about the performed
Speaker 3: material versus Jessel Nick, who was a huge, huge, right,
Speaker 3: you know, right was a huge influence on him. He
Speaker 3: said to me, I think they're compared to each other
Speaker 3: because they both told absurd, non secretars. Mitch Hedberg had
Speaker 3: the appearance of mentally fumbling around on stage looking for
Speaker 3: his jokes and figuring out as he went along. Right
Speaker 3: was deliberate, the sort of goes to what you're saying.
Speaker 3: He was serious, He was not fucking around. Mitch just
Speaker 3: walked on stage from a party. And of course he's
Speaker 3: not using it as an insult. He's saying that was
Speaker 3: the vibe he gave. Right just walked on stage from
Speaker 3: another planet. I think that I think that's a pretty
Speaker 3: good explanation. But maybe if you're just looking at it
Speaker 3: from a legacy standpoint, and this is gonna sound cold,
Speaker 3: but dying was a good career move because because.
Speaker 1: You look at young comics.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of comics I follow on
Speaker 3: substack who are often analyzing mulling over philosophizing about Mitch Hedberg.
Speaker 3: The one I want to shout out because I think
Speaker 3: it is a comic that your listener should also look
Speaker 3: up is Mike Kaplan, who has a great substack. He's
Speaker 3: a huge Hedburg fan and he recently had a substack
Speaker 3: about him and he said this. He said, his jokes
Speaker 3: are songs infinitely re listenable, where so much comedy requires
Speaker 3: surprise to have his desired effect. Hedberg's has somehow transcended that.
Speaker 3: That is fascinating, and I think he's right. You can
Speaker 3: listen to you know, an elevator can never break. It
Speaker 3: just turns into stairs, and even if you've heard it before,
Speaker 3: there's still a pleasure in hearing it again. They are
Speaker 3: more like songs, and that's very high praise, because once
Speaker 3: you take the surprise out of comedy, you take quite
Speaker 3: a bit out of it. I think, you know what
Speaker 3: Mike does his sub sact is then he goes on
Speaker 3: to analyze some jokes. It looks at the philosophy of them.
Speaker 3: They actually have a depth to them, especially in how
Speaker 3: they kind of mix. And this is in part I'm
Speaker 3: influenced by Mike's writing on this, like the ordinary and
Speaker 3: the metaphysical in a way that rewards sustained analysis and thinking.
Speaker 2: I never thought of that that it's it is like
Speaker 2: music that I don't mind listening to the stuff over
Speaker 2: and over and part of the production. I think it's
Speaker 2: strategic grow Locations is the one with the bass, which
Speaker 2: just gives the whole album a vibe and helps bring
Speaker 2: those one liners to life and that whole low key
Speaker 2: party vibe.
Speaker 1: Yep, I think that's true.
Speaker 2: You got me thinking too about you know what if
Speaker 2: Island And when you pointed out Mitch was thirty seven,
Speaker 2: You're trying to picture fifty seven year old Mitch Hedberg,
Speaker 2: you know, have the same hairstyle. It's like when you
Speaker 2: try and picture eighty year old John Lennon and if
Speaker 2: you know, maybe looking more like Larry David. It's just
Speaker 2: it's so hard. These people get fixed in your mind
Speaker 2: at a certain age.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 3: I mean, what's interesting right is and I don't think
Speaker 3: I would get too much argument about this. His is
Speaker 3: the kind of comedy that doesn't age in the sense
Speaker 3: that if you didn't like it in nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 3: you're still not gonna like it. If you did like it,
Speaker 3: it still works now. It doesn't need a lot of context.
Speaker 3: It's often based on logic. It's based on playing with language,
Speaker 3: on the slipperiness of language. Often when people like every
Speaker 3: once in a while, I'll have somebody say like, oh,
Speaker 3: I have like a teenager's getting into comedy. What would
Speaker 3: you suggest in the list of people who I say,
Speaker 3: it's Mitch Heberg. Now, granted, maybe he'd evolve and he
Speaker 3: would become you know, he'd be talking about topical stuff,
Speaker 3: or maybe he would move in a personal direction or something.
Speaker 3: But my suspicion as he wouldn't.
Speaker 1: We'll never know.
Speaker 2: I'm hearing the base in my head and somebody going,
Speaker 2: I got aheaded to a single.
Speaker 1: Chat exactly exactly the amazing.
Speaker 2: I think one thing about Mitch that during the soul
Speaker 2: searching this week that has revealed itself is he's one
Speaker 2: comedian that appeals to all the camps, you know, the
Speaker 2: comedy seller people, the brick wall smoking cigarettes people, the
Speaker 2: la al d people, the blue collar guys. I think
Speaker 2: everybody liked and respected Mitch's comedy.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's I'm push back in that.
Speaker 2: So please please, I love this discussion.
Speaker 1: Go yes, I think you're right.
Speaker 3: But that's in part because he died in two thousand
Speaker 3: and five before not just comedy but the world fragmented.
Speaker 3: Would everyone still love him so much if he was
Speaker 3: still around and he was, you know, toring either taking
Speaker 3: a side in these various culture war battles that we
Speaker 3: all know of. You know, I don't know. I think
Speaker 3: what's significant about him is that he's at the head
Speaker 3: of an entire family tree of comedy that is incredibly
Speaker 3: legible to us today but wasn't not that long ago.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's taking a Taro, it's Sheng Wang,
Speaker 3: it's Todd Berry, it's even Hannibal, It'smitri Martin, this kind
Speaker 3: of dead pen one liner surrealists like, Now, that's the
Speaker 3: type of comedy. It's yes, he hung out with people
Speaker 3: as diverse as David Tel and Todd Berry.
Speaker 1: I think it deserves some credit. He has his work,
Speaker 1: and Mitch has shared some.
Speaker 3: Qualities, but I really think he helped invent a branch
Speaker 3: of esthetic comedy. And there's still people who now are
Speaker 3: coming up who are like, Okay, that's a legitimate I
Speaker 3: don't need to be weird la clown or New York
Speaker 3: club comic. There's this other option, and if you're good
Speaker 3: at it, people will respect you.
Speaker 1: And that's true.
Speaker 3: I think that gets overlooked in a lot of the
Speaker 3: culture war stuff, is that people there's club comics who
Speaker 3: think Chris Fleming is great, and there's alt comics who
Speaker 3: think Bill Burr is incredible if you're really good in fact,
Speaker 3: to be honest with you, not that this matters that much,
Speaker 3: but like I find that the alt people are easier
Speaker 3: to give up praise for someone who's totally different than
Speaker 3: them in the club, same for the club people, because
Speaker 3: it's less there's less competitive, right. It's the advantage of
Speaker 3: doing what we do is that we don't really have
Speaker 3: a dog in one of the fights. We can actually
Speaker 3: call us balls and strikes more with more fairness in
Speaker 3: my opinion. But so I think, you know, in the
Speaker 3: reason Mitch to take it full circle, the reason Mitch
Speaker 3: is sort of a safe harbor to praise is because
Speaker 3: he's on the other side of life where I think
Speaker 3: he both seems very modern, but he never got on
Speaker 3: the you know, he never became joined the social media
Speaker 3: madness that was to come.
Speaker 2: So in the age of AI, there's a YouTube page
Speaker 2: almost Beatle songs. The other day they released this George
Speaker 2: Harrison thing that they brought to life, pulling stems from
Speaker 2: different things. Absolutely incredible. So we've got enough audio of Mitch,
Speaker 2: and I know for a fact there at least was
Speaker 2: a notebook of Hedberg's material that he never got to perform.
Speaker 2: Lynn Shawcroft showed me the notebook. I saw it, if
Speaker 2: I'm remembering correctly, and you know, I don't want to
Speaker 2: go all Brian Williams here, but I think at Sirius
Speaker 2: we did a special where some comedians performed some of
Speaker 2: those jokes one time. I think that happened. But anyway,
Speaker 2: the notebook exists and we have AI. Would you want
Speaker 2: to hear Ai Hedburg deliver those or.
Speaker 3: No, oh boy, this is a George Carlin estate. Would
Speaker 3: not be for this, That's for sure, that's true. That's
Speaker 3: I got to say. I'm not.
Speaker 2: But it's his material. So the Carlon Flink wasn't Carlin's material.
Speaker 2: This is Hegberg's material. So I'll give you an example
Speaker 2: on Netflix, the Churchhill documentary. I thought was amazing because
Speaker 2: they used Churchill's books and had Ai Churchhill voice it,
Speaker 2: and I thought it really worked well. You still have
Speaker 2: the issue of timing performing the words of Mitch Hebburg
Speaker 2: is that the devil.
Speaker 3: It's a great question, and we're really struggling with these issues,
Speaker 3: and it turns out that there's so much more AI
Speaker 3: in our culture that we consume that we think it is.
Speaker 3: We found this out with the Academy Awards recently. It
Speaker 3: turns out the Bob Dylan movies got AI, and they
Speaker 3: all got in the idea of taking these regis stands
Speaker 3: of that AI is sort of moot. But I guess
Speaker 3: if we're to take Mike Kaplan's point, his jokes are
Speaker 3: like songs, I think I'd be fine for it as
Speaker 3: long as it's labeled as such, and so it's like
Speaker 3: a little bit like covers, and why not listen to it.
Speaker 3: I do think that there is a human element to
Speaker 3: delivery and to pace and to how he would that.
Speaker 3: I'm open to AI having a positive impact on culture,
Speaker 3: but I'm more on the skeptical side among friends when
Speaker 3: we talk about this stuff. I have friends who are
Speaker 3: slowly using AI in ways that are not necessary but
Speaker 3: make their work a little bit easier. I'm a hardliner
Speaker 3: except where there are the few exceptions. But I feel like,
Speaker 3: unless you really need to use it, slippery slope.
Speaker 2: And I think the question would be who's putting it together?
Speaker 2: When it's Paul mccurtney saying I think John might have
Speaker 2: done this, George might have done that. That's one thing.
Speaker 2: If it's some rando, that's a whole other thing entirely.
Speaker 2: Last question on Hegberg that I want to ask you
Speaker 2: about a few other things is do you think he
Speaker 2: is more popular than he was ten years ago? I'm
Speaker 2: not talking about twenty years ago. I feel like ten
Speaker 2: years ago he was in the zeitgeisten on the internet,
Speaker 2: and maybe we had better Twitter back then than we
Speaker 2: have now. I feel like he is starting to become
Speaker 2: a comedian of the past. A name that keeps popping
Speaker 2: to my mind this week is Richard Jenny, who was
Speaker 2: huge and nobody ever, ever, ever says the words Richard
Speaker 2: and Jenny in a sentence anymore. Are we starting to
Speaker 2: get away from Hebburg or is there more of a
Speaker 2: legacy here?
Speaker 3: I think you have a good point that Twitter helped him,
Speaker 3: because he really was perfect for Twitter. But Twitter now
Speaker 3: is sort of a ghost town for comedy at least,
Speaker 3: so maybe he's plateaued. But I don't think he's not
Speaker 3: like Richard Jenny. As I said, this Mike Kaplan thing
Speaker 3: was just like a week ago, and I think Matt
Speaker 3: Ruby had something on a substack about so he's still
Speaker 3: cited and talked about the analog and I'm working on
Speaker 3: a piece right now. But Andy Coller is a quick
Speaker 3: thing on Andy Kaufman, and I don't know what you
Speaker 3: think Andy Kaufman. I think Andy Coffin's bigger now than
Speaker 3: he ever has been.
Speaker 2: The Man on the Moon movie surely helped him. There
Speaker 2: was that renaissance there. I think the Kaufman Awards definitely
Speaker 2: helped when that was. That's a little more visible than
Speaker 2: it is now, you know, I remember the earlier as
Speaker 2: Kristin Shawl for example, being one of the winners of that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the Kaufman doc coming back. Depending on what
Speaker 2: Bob's Muda was doing on any particular day, there'd be
Speaker 2: a lot of Andy or no Andy at all. But
Speaker 2: I feel like Kaufman's got a legacy.
Speaker 3: Sure, I think this Kaufman doc is very good, and
Speaker 3: I think you could point to figures like Sasha Baron Cohen,
Speaker 3: Nathan Fielder, the whole sort of trolling aesthetic, the sort
Speaker 3: of blurring of lines between real and fake. It feels
Speaker 3: like Andy Kaufman really anticipated a lot of what's in
Speaker 3: the culture now in a way that gets him talked about,
Speaker 3: which was first of all, I think that Stephen Wright
Speaker 3: did get there before Mitch, which is relevant. I remember
Speaker 3: asking that Stephen right about Edburg and he wasn't very expansive,
Speaker 3: but he did say something like, it's nice that I
Speaker 3: was influencer. You know, he made it clear that he
Speaker 3: was there before, and he's not wrong. He's not wrong.
Speaker 3: So yeah, maybe his legacy is not as fixed, but
Speaker 3: I still think he's in the cannon.
Speaker 2: Anytime I look at a top ex comedians of whatever
Speaker 2: time period, you know, he's clearly up there. We could
Speaker 2: spend a year debating what such a list would look like,
Speaker 2: but he's definitely way up there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: I would take a quick break, come back, and I
Speaker 2: want to talk to Jason about some other things. So
Speaker 2: I believe you were the Conan Marktwain Awards.
Speaker 3: Like I was a snuck in was the room. They
Speaker 3: didn't give me a ticket, so I had to go
Speaker 3: as a plus one. They rejected my offer for a ticket.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's crazy. I thought it was a
Speaker 1: little crazy.
Speaker 2: Sorry, my brain just fried. It's not like you're some
Speaker 2: dude in a basement doing some dopey podcast. It's the
Speaker 2: New York Times.
Speaker 3: Well, they actually gave me this is probably two inside
Speaker 3: baseball to care about. But they actually gave it to
Speaker 3: a reporter from the Times, and they said they couldn't
Speaker 3: give it to me because of they gave it to her,
Speaker 3: but they gave her two tickets, so we were like,
Speaker 3: all right, I'll just go with her.
Speaker 2: All right, that's good.
Speaker 1: So it turned out to be fine.
Speaker 3: No one gave me any hassle where they were actually like,
Speaker 3: no yonder pouches. They couldn't have been friendlier.
Speaker 2: It's funny to bring up the under pouches because I
Speaker 2: haven't seen really anything leak. But I guess it was
Speaker 2: a professional crowd right industry and the New York Times.
Speaker 2: You guys aren't going to start bootlegging things on your phones.
Speaker 1: They could have.
Speaker 3: It was actually I think it was mostly Kennedy Center
Speaker 3: people and subscribers, but the whole comedy industry was there.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was actually a great show. I gotta
Speaker 3: say it was. I'll be really interested to see what
Speaker 3: they cut out. But you know, Conan, for one thing
Speaker 3: inspires a lot of love and loyalty, and then people
Speaker 3: brought their a game. So it was probably the best
Speaker 3: comedy lineup I'd seen this year, and it was tight.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what they're going to cut
Speaker 3: on top of the fact that there's the whole Trump
Speaker 3: and politics of it all, but there.
Speaker 1: Was a lot of comedy nerds.
Speaker 3: Jay Leno got hit almost as bad as Trump, and
Speaker 3: that maybe worse. There was one point when I think
Speaker 3: it was Kumeo had this fake ted talk where he
Speaker 3: pointed out that he had a bunch of people on the.
Speaker 1: Cover of Time and he had Hitler.
Speaker 3: Stalin caused me, these are like the covers of Time,
Speaker 3: and then he had Jay Leno jay Leno cover and
Speaker 3: I was like, that's a hard one. But so there
Speaker 3: was that there was a lot there for comedy nerds
Speaker 3: to chew on poor Jay.
Speaker 2: I mean there was a time circa nineteen eighty two
Speaker 2: eighty three He's coming out in a leather jacket and
Speaker 2: he was fairly edgy, and a frequent letterman guest that
Speaker 2: Jay is long gone, at least in the eyes of
Speaker 2: his peers.
Speaker 1: It's true. I am to be fair.
Speaker 3: Conan did not say a word about him, but I
Speaker 3: think his friends knew that he would enjoy going back
Speaker 3: over some of those late night worse from another period.
Speaker 2: It's crazy that post late night talk show where at
Speaker 2: Pete Conan the Oscar is obviously a great look for
Speaker 2: him the podcast, but he's more popular than ever and
Speaker 2: he's not on late night.
Speaker 3: It's an increase. He's that an incredible year. I feel
Speaker 3: it's funny I did a big profile of him before this.
Speaker 3: I feel my timing was very good. I was lucky
Speaker 3: because then he got the oscars in the Twain and
Speaker 3: I felt like he's he is having this moment, and
Speaker 3: I thought he really rose to the occasion. His speech was,
Speaker 3: you know, he had this tough call because he's not
Speaker 3: a political comedian. In fact, he told me he thinks
Speaker 3: Trump's bad for comedy. Doing Trump jokes is not his instinct.
Speaker 3: That comedy is not going to make social change. If anything,
Speaker 3: he will have a backlash. And yet he's put in
Speaker 3: this situation. The Kennedy Center is now in an unprecedented move.
Speaker 3: The President has made himself the chairman of the Kennedy
Speaker 3: Center and gotten rid of the Democrats on the board.
Speaker 3: Seems sort of apolitical. Is now early political. Not mentioning it,
Speaker 3: people boycotting it would itself be a political gesture. So
Speaker 3: how do you stay true to your principles? While responding
Speaker 3: to the moment a very tricky problem that I think
Speaker 3: he thread beautifully and ultimately made a very political speech,
Speaker 3: But it was all through this esthetic appreciation of Mark Twain, which.
Speaker 1: Is consistent with who he is.
Speaker 3: He is, like, you know, he's a Harvard nerd, you know,
Speaker 3: a comedy nerd who really has read Mark Twain and
Speaker 3: chapter and verse that has opinions on it. And you know,
Speaker 3: it was an s seats speech but with a real
Speaker 3: hardcore political core.
Speaker 1: And then it ended.
Speaker 3: I didn't mention this in my piece, but the funniest
Speaker 3: bit I think was Will Forte at the end came
Speaker 3: out as Mark Twain and then roasted all the other
Speaker 3: previous Mark Twain winners. He said that Adam Sandler can't read.
Speaker 3: He said that all and you know written by Conan obviously,
Speaker 3: or written by Conan and Will and then end it
Speaker 3: with this kind of really crazy, silly, surreal vignette with
Speaker 3: all these multiple Mark Twain's almost like the Slim Shady video.
Speaker 1: That was a great show.
Speaker 2: What a great run for a guy that you know,
Speaker 2: went from Who's that? To is this late night show
Speaker 2: going to make it to Thursday? To being at the
Speaker 2: top of the game. Now, I'll switching gears on late
Speaker 2: night and I'll go first. We're recording this on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: So unless you've got a secret time machine, we've only
Speaker 2: seen two episodes of Mulaney. I think it's not working.
Speaker 2: And as somebody who's been in broadcasting for thirty years,
Speaker 2: I get what they're trying to do. I get that
Speaker 2: they're trying to do the chaos, but as a producer,
Speaker 2: they got to put a format on it. It's too
Speaker 2: all over the place, and the caller segment has to go.
Speaker 3: My prejudice is completely in favor of what they're trying
Speaker 3: to do, right. I like chaos, I like experimental, I
Speaker 3: like original Letterman, I like Chris and it's I think
Speaker 3: I like all the riffs. I like the ambition, I
Speaker 3: like the aims. So I tend to sort of grate
Speaker 3: in a curve. But then, for instance, if I was
Speaker 3: to rank the acts at the Conan Mark Twain Award,
Speaker 3: and there's some heavy hitters on here, Milany is either
Speaker 3: one or two. It's a reminder of how damn good
Speaker 3: he can be. He was unbelievable in the show, and
Speaker 3: you're like, that reminds you what he does well, and
Speaker 3: you watch him on that talk show and you're like,
Speaker 3: he looks like he's flailing half the time. So you're right,
Speaker 3: the talk show thing isn't quite working, and you've got
Speaker 3: all this talent. I hope, you know, if I'm honest.
Speaker 3: The original run of it, I was mixed on it too.
Speaker 3: I felt like there was a lot of things that
Speaker 3: didn't work. But let me also just defend him for
Speaker 3: a second and say, there wasn't a good talk show
Speaker 3: in history that worked right off the bat Conan took,
Speaker 3: you know, a year to get his legs. Letterman took
Speaker 3: a while, So I think we should good give credit
Speaker 3: to people who are taking ambitious moves and who are
Speaker 3: messing with the form. And he's no questions he's doing that.
Speaker 3: I'd rather see someone Fay. Look, I'd like to see
Speaker 3: Magic Johnson or talk show. It's like a huge disaster
Speaker 3: is way more fun than another mediocre conventional talk show.
Speaker 2: Like the Jerry Lewis Talk Show. You ever watched clips
Speaker 2: of that one? That's painful. But I think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think as an executive, you know, I'm sending mullany
Speaker 2: notes on the equivalent of Wednesday, So maybe maybe let
Speaker 2: him do five shows before I get in there.
Speaker 3: I mean, well, one thing I'll say is that I
Speaker 3: saw a funny tweet from or the instagram of Chris
Speaker 3: Chris Gethard, who is again wants this to succeed, and
Speaker 3: he said something about like you got to get a
Speaker 3: new mic or something for the or let me help
Speaker 3: you with the sound design for the call in or something.
Speaker 3: So even people who are really rooting for this can
Speaker 3: see that like it could be, it could be a
Speaker 3: little more polished.
Speaker 2: Can you help me sort my feelings with Bill Burr?
Speaker 2: And I don't even know what I want from you.
Speaker 2: I'm not on the soapbox with Bill Burr's going woke
Speaker 2: and I used to look at it that's not at
Speaker 2: all how I feel. However, maybe Bill is over exposed
Speaker 2: right now. I didn't love the special, and now every
Speaker 2: time I see Bill Burr appeared in the media, I'm
Speaker 2: kind of making what I call crinkly face and be like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I need a bird time out.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what I'm asking you right now,
Speaker 2: But where are you in the Burr averse?
Speaker 3: I've heard you as I'm a religious listener of this
Speaker 3: podcast and I've heard you. I'm not on the same
Speaker 3: page with you, and I would just remind you that
Speaker 3: there are most people don't know who Bill Burr is, right,
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, see, I just heard a piece on him.
Speaker 3: It was interesting to me how many people is The
Speaker 3: New York Times I had to like introduce who Bill
Speaker 3: Burr is and why he's important and so while on
Speaker 3: one level, yes, it seems like he's overexposed, he's everywhere,
Speaker 3: but to a lot of people, this is their introduction
Speaker 3: to him. And I know that you agree that he
Speaker 3: is great at what he does. And look, I think
Speaker 3: his stuff on Elon who else is saying that?
Speaker 1: Johnny? I mean, who else?
Speaker 3: How can comedians of all people be quiet about this? Ridiculous? Like,
Speaker 3: you know, how can they not be tearing this guy
Speaker 3: to shreds? Right? Like Bill Burr is actually doing what
Speaker 3: so many younger comics should be doing. I'm not even
Speaker 3: talking about Trump. I'm talking about Elon Musk and billionaires, right,
Speaker 3: like attacking from this kind of blue collar position. Or
Speaker 3: to watch him on Bill Maher, you know, or watch
Speaker 3: him on Jimmy Kimmel beither kind of free leagion or
Speaker 3: as I said, I did a piece on him, which
Speaker 3: I watched him in rehearsal going out the director. He
Speaker 3: think he's being very true to his nature in that
Speaker 3: he's not picking me any side, going after whoever's in
Speaker 3: front of him. Is the new Special his best special ever? No,
Speaker 3: I don't think it is. I think it's pretty much
Speaker 3: like it. But if you like what he does, I
Speaker 3: think there's stuff there like. But like, for instance, my
Speaker 3: parents who have never that was their first special, they
Speaker 3: thought it was great.
Speaker 2: I think you just helped me. You know what happened?
Speaker 2: The indie band I like is playing stadiums?
Speaker 1: Yes? Now, are you gonna see any the Ross?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: I would like to, but I haven't done anything about it.
Speaker 2: That often happens with Broadway and me. It took back
Speaker 2: to the future threat closing down for me to go, oh,
Speaker 2: we got to go. And my daughter's a theater kid
Speaker 2: and knows how to get tickets to things, so I
Speaker 2: should probably do something about it. Have you seen it?
Speaker 2: Is it good?
Speaker 1: I'm going on Tuesday.
Speaker 3: I saw a little bit in rehearsal and he is
Speaker 3: perfectly cast yep, and he can obviously do wonders with
Speaker 3: the language, and so I can't wait.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a killer cast.
Speaker 3: It's one of my When I was a kid, it
Speaker 3: was one of my favorite plays, and so I'm excited
Speaker 3: to see him do it well.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you coming on today, as we remember in
Speaker 2: Mitch Heedberg, and always fun to talk to you about
Speaker 2: all things comedy, nopun.
Speaker 3: Great, always great being here. Keep up the good work.
Speaker 2: Thank you Jason for popping on today. I'm not this good.
Speaker 2: I used AI to help me shape some of the
Speaker 2: words about Hebburg, and the AI nailed it here. Mitch
Speaker 2: Hedburg used to make us laugh. He still does, but
Speaker 2: he used it too, all right, See tomorrow