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Join today and play for free 22 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:53.880 for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 23 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:58.320 Jump Chumpacasino dot Com, Nobrid's Necessary Boid. We're goingited to 24 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.119 my eighteen plus terms and conditioned to plus What's. 25 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:03.359 Lap told? 26 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:16.079 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 27 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:26.560 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 29 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:50.040 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Whispers in the 32 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:54.319 Willows is an anthology style true crime book that chronicles 33 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:59.239 three unsolved murders, a series of death row executions, and 34 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.719 the harrowings stories of two hologaust survivors. A twenty two 35 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:07.439 year old college student, Rebecca Gould, vanished from a friend's 36 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:11.080 house September twentieth, two thousand and four, near the town 37 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:15.680 of Melbourne, Arkansas. Her partially clothed, blood and body was 38 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.080 found near a rural road not far from the house 39 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:22.080 a week later. Her case has never been solved. It's 40 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.719 been profiled on The Doctor Oz Show and was featured 41 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:29.360 on the Hell and Gone podcast in twenty eighteen. Jareded 42 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:31.759 has written about her case since the day she vanished. 43 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:34.560 There's a glaring amount of evidence in the case that 44 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:38.000 points in several directions, and he has dedicated another chapter 45 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:42.439 about her in his newest work. Amanda Tusing, a twenty 46 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.719 year old aspiring veterinarian, left her fiancees home on a 47 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.960 rain soaked night. A few hours later, she would be dead, 48 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.560 and her case has baffled law officers for almost twenty years. 49 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:56.599 Karen Johnson Swift was a mother of four that vanished 50 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:02.080 just before Halloween twenty eleven in Dyer's Tennessee. Her body 51 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:04.479 was found in the cemetery a couple of months later. 52 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:10.039 Her killer remains free. Four men who committed unspeakable acts 53 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:12.280 of violence and torture were set to die on death 54 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.240 row in April twenty seventeen. Jared was there for the 55 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.240 planned execution and gives a detailed look into one of 56 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:23.240 the darkest places on earth. The book also includes two 57 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:27.840 Holocaust survivors and their tales of survival. The murders they 58 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.759 witnessed cannot be imagined. Jared has also written two other 59 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.439 two crime books, which Is in West Memphis and The 60 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:39.039 Creek Side Bones. Those books included chapters about the internationally 61 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.639 famous West Memphis three case. Jared wrote more stories about 62 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.039 the West Memphis three case than any other journalists in 63 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.439 the world, and includes death row interviews with Damian Eccles. 64 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.000 The book they were featuring this evening is Whispers in 65 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:57.840 the Willows? Who Killed Rebecca Gould? Who killed the Mandatuzing 66 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.360 and Why? With my special guest journalist and author, George Jared. 67 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:05.479 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 68 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:10.080 for green this interview. George Jared, I'm happy to be here. 69 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:14.199 Dan, thank you very much for joining us once again. 70 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:20.600 Incredible book. Let's begin this with June fourteenth, two thousand 71 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:25.839 in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and we're talking about Amanda Choosing, twenty 72 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.800 year old and she was living in the town of Dell. 73 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:35.000 Tell us a little bit about Amanda Tuosing and a 74 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.199 little bit of her life before we just talk about 75 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.079 what happened that faithful night. 76 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.480 Well, Amanda was a college student. She grew up in 77 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:46.800 the town of Dell. Like you mentioned, she had a 78 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:49.800 twin brother. She was kind of small in stature. She 79 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.839 was about five to one and her brother was nearly 80 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.240 a foot taller than her. She was a captain of 81 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.160 her basketball team, when she was in high school, she 82 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:02.519 was an inspiring that she was going she was taking 83 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:08.360 classes to kind of reach that goal. And recently to 84 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.920 that time went around the time that she vanished, she 85 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.759 had become engaged to her fiance, Matt, and the night 86 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.040 that she disappeared, she was at his house and there 87 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:22.439 was a terrible thunderstorm rolling through the area, and she 88 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.399 had decided to go home that night to her parents' 89 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:32.079 house because they lived closer to her college and the 90 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.879 town of Dell at that time was about an hour's drive. 91 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.600 Right now, you write that she had promised to call 92 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.480 her boyfriend when she got back got to her parents' house, 93 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.800 but no call came, and boyfriend fiance was alarmed, so 94 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.560 he called her father ed choosing what did they do? 95 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.879 After this conversation, well Ed. 96 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.360 And the twin brother left from Dell the house in Dell, 97 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.079 and they started back towards Jonesborough, and then Matt left 98 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:09.600 from Jonesborough and as they're driving through the night, they 99 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:13.160 meet up about midway, and Midway was a little town 100 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:17.399 called Monette, And in Monette, underneath a street light, they 101 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:22.879 saw her car underneath this light, and when they got 102 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.160 to the car, the keys were in the ignition, the 103 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.439 seat was moved all the way forward, which was her 104 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.240 preferred sitting position in the car. There was a cold 105 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:37.079 beverage in the console. The car was in perfect mechanical 106 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.279 working order when shield wipers were in midslap when they 107 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.560 turned it on. There was nothing in the car to 108 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.879 indicate that anything violent had happened to her. Everything was 109 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:49.040 in its place in that car except for her. 110 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.319 Right. He said. There was an intensive search, and of 111 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.160 course the car was examined by the Craigate County Sheriff's 112 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:02.160 Department obviously determined to know was no mechanical issues with 113 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:06.240 the car. Now the lead detectives is Gary Edter. What 114 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.399 does he also determine from looking at this car and 115 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:13.800 what are they determined in terms of very valuable information 116 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:15.800 regarding moving forward? 117 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:20.279 Well, the thing about it, the thing about is is 118 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.199 they knew that it was in good mechanical working order. 119 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.000 So she didn't stop her car because there was something 120 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.560 wrong with it. It's kind of out in the middle 121 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.160 of the rural area, so it's not kind of out 122 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:30.720 in the middle of nowhere, so there was really no 123 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:35.360 reason to stop in that spot. And so and there 124 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.360 wasn't any indication of a violent struggle. So the thinking 125 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.839 was was that it was possibly a like a guy 126 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.759 who was pretending to be a police officer, or she was. 127 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:50.639 She was she was compelled to stop her vehicle for 128 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.040 some reason, and then you know, maybe somebody held a 129 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.439 gun up to her or or did something that would 130 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:57.319 scare her to the point where she would edit the 131 00:07:57.399 --> 00:07:58.639 vehicle without trying to fight back. 132 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:06.240 Now, how many days after her disappearance does is she 133 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.600 found and tell us about that discovery. 134 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:14.279 So about three three to four days they led a 135 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:18.160 very intensive search effort in eastern Crickett County and then 136 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:23.079 into Mississippi County. And a lot of your listeners, if 137 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:27.279 they're big John grishram fans he was born in Jonesboro 138 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.680 and his family, their family farm. A lot of the 139 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:32.879 things that he talks about in some of his books 140 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.759 about Southern culture. It all came right from this very 141 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:37.559 area where she was found. Her car where it was 142 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.759 found was only a couple of miles from his family's farm. 143 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.159 So they what happened was it was a Sunday after 144 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:51.440 she disappeared, and a couple were out driving near some 145 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.080 tributaries of the Saint Francis river and a woman thought 146 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.799 she saw a pair of pants floating in the tributary. 147 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:00.799 It turned out not to be a pair of uh, 148 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.159 it did turn to be a pair of pants, but 149 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:03.759 there was a body in those pants and it was 150 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:04.559 a man. To test. 151 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:11.360 Right now, what do they determine from that autopsy? Fingerprints, fingernails, 152 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.639 part of me underneath, DNA toxology report, what do they 153 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.039 what do they determine from all of those tests? 154 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:23.000 They determined that she had died, that she had drowned, 155 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.879 or she had suffered a condition that was like drowning. 156 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.240 And the reason I word it that way is because 157 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:30.960 there was I don't think there was a great deal 158 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.600 of water found in her loans. But sometimes when you're 159 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.120 plunged underwater, a mucus plug will form in your throat 160 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:39.080 and so not a lot of water gets through. But 161 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:40.679 if you don't, if you can't get rid of the 162 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.559 mucus plug on your own you can, you will essentially 163 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.799 have you will essentially die because you're in the water 164 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:47.480 and you can't get the mucus plug out. So it's 165 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:51.000 basically like drowning. And that's what the autopsy report said. 166 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:57.679 There wasn't a lot of detailed information given out as 167 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.960 far as the condition of her body when it was found. 168 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.799 There was a definitive conclusion though that she wasn't raped 169 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.960 or sexually assaulted, and she was still it was such 170 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:13.559 a it's odd because she was still wearing the hat 171 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.320 on her head when they found her body that she 172 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:18.720 had put on her head when she left her fiance house. 173 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.240 So it was just it's just odd. 174 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.679 What did they determine in terms of whether this person 175 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.799 may be a transient serial killer as a possibility, or 176 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:36.360 was there some determination that he might be a local person. 177 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:37.879 What was their decision there? 178 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:43.080 They were able to rule out transient serial killer pretty 179 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.000 early on for one simple reason. The place where her 180 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:50.720 body was dumped was extremely remote and only known to 181 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.200 a few locals. I mean, even people who live in 182 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:56.120 that area very rarely are able to get into this 183 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.120 area where they found that where they were able to 184 00:10:58.200 --> 00:10:59.919 determine that her body had actually been dumped in the 185 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.759 into this tributary, So pretty early on they knew it 186 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.480 was a local they or they suspected it was a local. 187 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:12.679 And then so they started interviewing some people possible people 188 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.440 of interest. Of course, you know, the fiance would be automatically. 189 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:18.960 The first one interviewed, and he took multiple polygraphs, and 190 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.919 you know, and as I talked to Detective Editor, he 191 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:25.600 you know, he was pretty firm of the fact that 192 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.679 that he was not never really considered a suspect ever, 193 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.559 because he was he had no motive to do it. 194 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:35.440 He was the first one to immediately notify the family. 195 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.159 I mean, she left his house and within two hours 196 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.720 they had found her car. And it takes about an 197 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.519 hour to get there, so he only gave her an hour. 198 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:46.480 And you know, then you're driving through a thunderstorm. You know, 199 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.039 you've driven through storms before that, you know it could 200 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:51.120 take you a long time to get somewhere. So he 201 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:56.240 was immediately worried and notified her family. So she was eliminated. 202 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:59.879 The aspect, there was some thought that maybe you know, 203 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.519 there's drugs or trafficked in a pretty high rate through there, 204 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:05.720 and so there was some thought that maybe it was 205 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.720 a case of mistaken identity and that maybe you know 206 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.240 that that some druggies had pulled her over. But the 207 00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:14.080 problem is that in a situation like that, you know, 208 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.480 I've covered things like that before, typically that's just a gunshot. 209 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:20.679 You know, they would just shoot someone, they wouldn't be 210 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.679 going through all the trouble of you know, taking him 211 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:24.279 out to the middle of nowhere and throwing him into 212 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:25.320 the bayu. 213 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:32.480 Right now, in this you very interesting, your incredible involvement 214 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.919 with this case is that this lead detective editor a 215 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.480 forty year, forty eight year law enforcement veteran. He was learning, 216 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.639 He learned that you were trying to track down Mandy's family, 217 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:49.200 and so hence he tracked you down. Now from what 218 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:51.960 what are some of the things that you guys discussed 219 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:55.039 and some of his conclusions regarding who might have done 220 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:55.799 this and why. 221 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:00.799 He was very involved in this case. I mean, you know, 222 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.799 you hear a lot of circumstances where detectives are on 223 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:06.440 a case for many, many years and unsolved painting. You know, 224 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:08.600 they say they're working on it, but in all reality 225 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:12.080 we know they're not, you know, And but that's not 226 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.559 the case of Gary. Gary had been on this case. 227 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.240 He constantly communicated with the testing family. He told me, 228 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.399 I think like once a week he might even talk 229 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.559 to the mom. And so he really worked this case hard. 230 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.320 The thing that I think even now, in one other 231 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.639 detail I might need to mention to your listeners that 232 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:34.879 we haven't discussed yet. One other detail was found on 233 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.159 her body, and that in her front pocket of her 234 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.080 genes was her life right. And so I think you 235 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:47.840 can logically deduce from everything that we know about what 236 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:53.559 happened to Mandy that that there was some type there 237 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.440 was either a police officer or someone impersonating a police 238 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.480 officer who was responsible for stop here. 239 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:06.039 Now, you do provide an example of why you say 240 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:08.120 this too, and you talk about the blue light rapist 241 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:12.080 in Arkansas for just two years before Mandy's death. Why 242 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:15.559 do you include this? Tell us why you include this, 243 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:17.799 and tell us a little bit about this blue light 244 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.320 rapist to lend credibility to your theory. 245 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.159 Well, the reason I included the blue light rapist is 246 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.519 because it was a phenomenon that happened in the mid 247 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:32.519 or in the late nineteen nineties. There was a guy 248 00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:35.399 who was convicted for, you know, stopping women and raping 249 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:40.799 them using a blue light, and so that story was 250 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:44.519 still just out there in the culture, I guess you 251 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.080 could put it that way, and so there was a 252 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.840 thought that maybe somebody was copycatting this blue light rapist. 253 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:57.799 The problem is that she wasn't raped and this never 254 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.399 happened again. So and the guy that the original blue 255 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.679 light rapists had been in prisoned for a couple of years. 256 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:05.559 But I think that there was a lot of people. 257 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.879 There's a big reticence for people to say that an 258 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:12.679 actual police officer did this for obvious reasons. You know, 259 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.159 you don't want to make a call like that if 260 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:19.360 it's not true, for sure. But the problem is is 261 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:23.279 that all the motivations for a blue someone impersonating that 262 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:25.559 blue light rapist, well he didn't do any of those things. 263 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:30.000 So there had to be another motivation, certainly. 264 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:37.279 Certainly, so in terms of speculation, what else did this 265 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.000 investigation try to find and where did it go in 266 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:47.840 in terms of trying to discover who this killer was, Well, where. 267 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.639 It went was they started interviewing police officers who lived 268 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.639 in that area and in that general area of those 269 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.679 two counties, and so they brought multiple offers in. They 270 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.159 interviewed him because he early on in the investigation, it 271 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.279 was pretty obvious that it was it was a police officer. 272 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:10.440 I think that they thought that, you know, edit literally 273 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:12.879 directly quoted to me, he said there was no doubt 274 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:16.320 in his mind that when Mandy stopped her car in 275 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.679 her back windshield she saw you know, red and blue lights, 276 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:24.919 so pretty early on, you know. But again we go 277 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.480 back to even just the police reports from that time 278 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.559 in that area, there was no no one was reporting, 279 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.960 you know, anybody being stopped by somebody using lights like that. 280 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.639 No one had seen anything like it. So I, you know, 281 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.320 the most likely scenario is that she was stopped by 282 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:42.039 a police officer. 283 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.600 Now in this same county, Craighead County, there was a 284 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.679 deputy from black Oak, which is a nearby community, small 285 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.639 community where he lived in a few miles from where 286 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.639 Mandy's car was found. Tell us a little bit about 287 00:16:57.759 --> 00:16:59.759 the investigation into Johnny Williams. 288 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.119 He was interviewed multiple times, he lived only a couple 289 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.799 of miles from where her car was found. And I 290 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.240 note some of this stuff in my book. You know, 291 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.000 I would try to get information, you know, I would 292 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.200 get on social media Facebook and whatnot, and I would 293 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.200 just ask the public for you know, do you have 294 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.559 any information about this guy? Well, I started researching another 295 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.599 murder case that he was might have been connected to, 296 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.960 and almost immediately I started getting messages from just scores 297 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:34.400 of people, women who say that they had been harassed 298 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.599 by him at night along that same stretch of highway, 299 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.359 and I mean, the number of messages was just it 300 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.279 was unbelievable, I mean, and so it got to a point, 301 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.000 and you know, and I tell people this. You know, 302 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.359 obviously you can't trust a b lot of the things 303 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.279 you read on social media posts, but just the sheer 304 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:57.200 number of people who contacted me, you can still form 305 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.839 a conclusion. At the very least, there was a thought 306 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:01.839 in that part of the world that he was harassing 307 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:05.279 to my motors at night. And he also had this 308 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:08.319 connection to a murder twenty years previous where a woman 309 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:12.440 had been taken out of her car and shot and 310 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.200 left on the side of the road, and so there 311 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:18.519 was a thought that maybe, you know, he might be involved. 312 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:22.119 And eventually he was released from his duties as a 313 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.240 deputy with the Craiger k Sheriff's Apartment. 314 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.359 You right that you were told by law enforcement what 315 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.839 regarding Williams and his potential guilt. 316 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:39.960 They were very They didn't want to pin it on 317 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.440 one of their own, for sure, but he was definitely 318 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:49.039 a the primary suspect in the case. And there's no 319 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.880 infans or buzzed about that He was their main focus, 320 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:57.119 you know, and you know, and I know several people. 321 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:59.880 I know several of his relatives, and it's something that 322 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.079 was discussed, you know, in their family quite a bit. 323 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.880 And literally there were you know, a couple of times 324 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:11.000 before he died, were literally officers tried to go into 325 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.359 his into the hospital room to try to get him 326 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.400 to confess to it before he passed on, but he didn't. 327 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:26.480 You write about another case here with again with Van 328 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.759 Edter or a pardon me Editter involved, and you talk 329 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:39.279 about a young girl disappearing in twenty and thirteen, Jessica 330 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.799 Williams playing in new yard with her puppy. Yes, why 331 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.880 do you include this story and tell us the gist 332 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:46.519 of this story that you include. 333 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.839 I included that story because, you know, Dan, I always 334 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.559 try to be fair, you know, in that case, it 335 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:56.440 was a slam dunk. This seventeen year old had to 336 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:58.680 confessed to murdering this eleven year old girl who disappeared 337 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.240 out of her yard playing one day. He was a neighbor, 338 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:04.359 you know, he even helped her dad look for her 339 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.680 that night, and then they found her body in a 340 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:09.920 ditch the next day not far from the house. And 341 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.279 then within a I don't know, probably twenty four hour period, 342 00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:15.400 he had confessed to her a murder, gave some details 343 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:21.000 that actually were somewhat accurate to a degree. But I 344 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.720 always explained to people, you know, if I tell you 345 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.160 that they found somebody, you know in a river, you know, dead, 346 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:28.960 you know, it's pretty could you could just guess some 347 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:32.359 of the details, you know, just based on just regular experience. 348 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.200 So this guy languished in jail for eight or nine months, 349 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.400 and then they found one sperm cell on her body, 350 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.400 and it didn't match him. It matched another neighbor who 351 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.920 had come early from work. And this guy had kids 352 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.599 that were her age and played with her, and he 353 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.039 had obviously has no explanation as to why his sperm 354 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:55.920 cell was on her. So eventually the murder charges were 355 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.480 dropped against a seventeen year old, and eventually this other guy, 356 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.920 pretty sharp the third was convicted. And I included it 357 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:06.000 because up until the sperm cell is tested, everybody knew. 358 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.599 Everybody thought it was this other guy. And so to 359 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.480 be fair to mister Williams and his family, you know, 360 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:15.680 he was never convicted in a court of law, so 361 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.240 he deserves, you know, that much. But also he deserves 362 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.480 that much respect to that degree. But also it's I 363 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.359 also wanted to write about Amanda's case because no one's 364 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:28.039 ever been named as a suspect or murdering. He's been 365 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.799 early twenty years and she deserves she deserves justice too. 366 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:38.240 Absolutely. Now, another part of your book very interesting, the 367 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.359 scope of the range that you have in this book, 368 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:48.680 very a little bit unusual. The death row tales. Why 369 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:50.839 do you include those? And tell us a little bit 370 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:55.400 about these death row tales and some of the people 371 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.960 that you encountered and your encounters at death roll. 372 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.000 Well, you know, death row is one of those places 373 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.799 that very few people ever get to visit. It's kind 374 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:09.559 of a unique experience. I've been there several times, you know, 375 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:11.480 to interview people who were on death row. And then 376 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.559 obviously I included a couple of chapters about these guys, 377 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.920 these four that were you know, that were sinces to 378 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.839 die in April of twenty seventeen. Originally, the state of 379 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:27.039 Arkansas had planned on killing eight because their you know, 380 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.559 cocktail of drugs was about to expire, and so but 381 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.880 four of them were stayed. But then Liddell Lee, you know, 382 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.039 who had been accused of killing several women, raping them. 383 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:43.400 His crimes are pretty heinous, pretty brutal. He finally was 384 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:47.119 set to die in April of twenty seventeen. He was 385 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.319 going to be the first one. You know, I went down. 386 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:53.200 I went down to cover it, you know. And of course, 387 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.359 this whole thing made international news because you know, killing 388 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.640 eight people in a span of about two weeks was 389 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:05.680 just about unprecedented in US history. And you know, there 390 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:08.480 was a lot of celebrities who you know, opposed it. 391 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.559 Uh Damien Nichols from the West Memphis three, you know, 392 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:13.559 and I write about that. He came back to Arkansas 393 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:15.559 because he would have been one of the eighth He 394 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.559 would have been one of those that would have been 395 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.519 executed in that batch. And Johnny Depp came with him 396 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.240 and spoke at a rally in Little Rock, just trying 397 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.640 to stop this from happening. But so now Ladell Lee's 398 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.359 execution did go forward. I tell people this, Neil Gorsich 399 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.559 had just been appointed to the US Supreme Court. He 400 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:37.440 cast a siding vote on the last stay to save 401 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:42.119