WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.480 Welcome to the nonprofits for our third segment this week. Well, 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:07.080 I'll just let Steven give us the details. 3 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:10.560 Thanks, Thanks Scott. I hope you're all sitting down for 4 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:15.439 this one. A local Christian pastor says killing women will 5 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:23.039 shut them up. So Pastor Joel Webbin of Covenant Bible 6 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.359 Church in Texas, of all places, says that a Christian 7 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:30.160 nation governed by the Bible would see the end of 8 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:35.280 hashtag me too movement, his rationale being that publicly executing 9 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:38.799 just a few of the allying women would see all 10 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:44.719 of the false accusations cease. This story is reported on 11 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:48.119 in a few different places, including The Mary Sue by 12 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:53.479 Rachel Alatowski on October twenty first, two thousand and twenty four. 13 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:57.759 All right, well let's get into it here, Steven. So 14 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:00.520 whether or not we consider this punishment of pro and 15 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.479 I think we are, we're all leaning in one particular direction, 16 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:07.760 but the Bible might very well say otherwise. Okay, So 17 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.079 what do you think of Joel Webbin? Not necessarily your 18 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:13.040 personal opinion, but just your your opinion about this approach? 19 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:14.799 What what do you what do you think of Joel 20 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.040 Webbin looking to the Bible for moral guidance on this issue, 21 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:19.239 like it's it's. 22 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:24.959 It's it's, it's it's mind blowing. It boggles my mind 23 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:30.920 that someone can be so inured to any kind of 24 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:34.760 critical thinking and empathy and just trying to understand a 25 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:39.959 perspective other than their own entitled, empowered perspective, like like, 26 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.799 just just just so that we have the fullest understanding 27 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.799 of the concept that this sermon from his pulpit that 28 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.319 he was preaching is his puppet, which is in the 29 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:52.280 dining hall of a restaurant that they rent. I guess 30 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:58.200 his rationale being that that you know, in under if 31 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.959 this were a Christian nation and he is a great nationalist, 32 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.079 that the Bible would then be the law of the land. 33 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:09.080 And therefore, if someone is found guilty of assaulting a woman, 34 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:13.479 then he should be put to death. And under that paradigm, 35 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.680 if someone is found guilty of falsely accusing someone, then 36 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:22.599 they receive the same punishment that their accused e would 37 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:24.919 have received. And so in this case, a woman who 38 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.039 was lying about these allegations would then receive that punishment. 39 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:31.639 She would be the one put to death. And it 40 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:34.919 just boggles my mind that he would say that from 41 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.120 the pulpit that just killing a few of these women 42 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.520 would stop stop this. I guess in his fantasy world 43 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.439 that this is like a widespread problem and that women 44 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.280 are the enemy and that they should be stopped for 45 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.439 spreading all of these lies. And I just I don't 46 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:58.159 understand how anyone can be so inerd to common sense 47 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:02.879 and just like actually hearing another person sharing their experience, 48 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.319 and just how how, how how empowered, how entitled must 49 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.719 you be to have your ears stuffed so hard that 50 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:12.400 you can't possibly hear of saying? 51 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.479 Damien, do you think that? I mean, do you agree 52 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:16.479 with what Stevens saying? 53 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.520 I mean, what's what's your take on what could be 54 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:23.919 motivating this guy to say these hateful things. 55 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:28.800 Look, I think say Christian nationalism, and I think yeah, 56 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:33.759 and Christian nationalism follows on from my time when I 57 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:36.120 was a when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I think 58 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.319 I was more familiar with the term dominionism, which they're 59 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:44.080 both essentially the same thing. But yeah, my question, my 60 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:48.800 I suppose my thing he is has the death penalty 61 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.919 actually stopped a particular type of crime from happening? And 62 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:56.120 we know, for example, in the US that the death 63 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.479 penalty is mandate mandate, but you know, is inappropriate? Is 64 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.479 it a punishment for murder? For example, in various Asian countries, 65 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.639 the death penalty is used for drug smuggling and trafficking, 66 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:11.240 but that doesn't seem to have solved those problems. So 67 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:17.079 I'm not too sure. Aside from the promotion of religious dogma, 68 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.920 I'm not too sure why Webin thinks that punishing killing 69 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:25.600 a woman would stop false accusations when we know that 70 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:29.040 for much more drastic things like murder and drug trafficking, 71 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:30.959 that the death penalty hasn't stopped those. 72 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:34.319 Things because he doesn't want to stop the sexual assaults. 73 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.600 He just wants to stop women from talking about it. 74 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:39.000 That's that's his that's his in there. 75 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.079 Yeah, actually seems what's happening here. 76 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.000 I would actually argue as well that this is something 77 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.319 that Marry Suit. In the Merry Sue article, if you 78 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:51.920 look towards the bottom of it, they actually highlighted quite 79 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:54.920 correctly that Webin doesn't seem to have called for the 80 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.360 execution of actual rapists, and in the article actually made 81 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:02.439 a few, actually made a few links to news reports 82 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.319 of actual rapes that have resulted in either disfigurement or 83 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.160 the death of the person of the victim. And Webin 84 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.959 seems to be fairly quiet about that, like he might 85 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.920 only he will probably give some sort of lip service 86 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.279 to oh, rape is bad. Yeah, those people are heinous. 87 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.240 But to actually call for the death of women who 88 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:27.199 make false allegations, it's like, Okay, that's that's us. That's 89 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.000 using a hammer to turn off a light switch. Essentially. 90 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.759 Then the other problem that Webin has is that how 91 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.959 prevalent are false rape accusations, And I was I would 92 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:39.560 say hardly, Like, yes, they exist. 93 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.120 But hardly to the extent that it's being suggested here. 94 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.319 Exactly Weben in the replace that's a I think I 95 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:49.720 think that's that's a part of it. 96 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:52.959 But I think it's more so you first, Kelly first, Sorry, 97 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:53.639 you first. 98 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.360 That was all they wanted to say, mindset, we got 99 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:04.600 to gyp this up women in their place, scaring. 100 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:09.439 But what I did want to point out, and this 101 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:11.120 is something I did put in my show notes, was 102 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.040 that the way the Mary Sue actually covered this article, 103 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:17.519 I'm going to say, is actually fairly unbalanced. Like when 104 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:20.040 this when the link came in in the show notes, 105 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.920 I thought, well, hold on, what's why did he say that, 106 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.759 what's his reasoning? Where is he coming from? And I 107 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.600 did not get that from the Mary Sue. Now I 108 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:31.199 understand the Mary Sue is, I suppose, very heavily to 109 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.519 the left of the political spectrum. So I actually had 110 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:37.519 to do some Google searching to find, Okay, what did 111 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.199 Joel Webbin actually say? What context did he say it, 112 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.959 and what is his what's his motivation? Rather than just 113 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.560 Joel Webbin is bad because he wants to kure women. Okay, cool, 114 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.439 we know that, but let's give a bit more background 115 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.079 and a bit more flavored to the article about why. 116 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:57.040 And so I found I found a link to a 117 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.959 kron dot com, which seems to be an independent media 118 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.839 your outlet, that actually did go into, you know, a 119 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:05.759 bit more of his history and his motivations, and you 120 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:09.240 know what what he was actually saying in paragraph form 121 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.360 rather than you know, Christian nationalist bad. 122 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.879 Yeah, So what was the what was the difference? 123 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:15.079 Then? 124 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:18.240 It was? Was the take in the in the other article? Different? 125 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.720 Well to me is the Mary Sue trying to be 126 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:24.839 the information or opinion? 127 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.759 Is interesting that to see us as when we were 128 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.399 earlier this week we're talking about educating people to figure 129 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.399 out good sources. This is one of the things we 130 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.040 have to educate Americans don't understand what's news and what's opinion, 131 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.759 because half of Americans don't know the freaking difference. 132 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.439 Yeah, and so sometimes two get mixed up. So I think, yeah, 133 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:44.639 so when I read this article, now I know this. 134 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:46.480 I know we're not talking about the Mary Sue, but 135 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.120 I think it's a good, good segue anyway, you know, 136 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:53.240 to discuss, like you know, when a media when a 137 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.319 media organization puts out an article, you know, we have 138 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.759 to differentiate what hold on? Is this just a polemic? 139 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:02.680 Is this actually trying to say something that the reader 140 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:03.959 doesn't already believe? 141 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:05.240 Is this you know? 142 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.360 Whereas if I read from the chron dot com and 143 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:09.160 I've got the link in my in my show notes, 144 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.399 you know, there's actually a lot more if you compare 145 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.759 the two articles. One is trying to inflame you, one 146 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:16.000 is trying to inform you. 147 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.199 So maybe it's some of that fear mongering on the 148 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.160 left that we were talking about earlier this week. 149 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.959 I think so, because the real flavor I got from 150 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:27.160 the Mary Soue piece was, you know, Christian national is bad. Well, 151 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:29.199 I get that he's bad, but you know, give me 152 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.120 a bit more, give me a bit more context, give 153 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.080 me a bit more, you know, a bit more color. 154 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.120 Don't just give me a black and white, give me 155 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:36.840 something that right. 156 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:37.919 Well, I do. 157 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.440 I think I think it's very valuable to make sure 158 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:46.360 that we have a an unbiased and comprehensive knowledge of 159 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.759 the situation before we get too far into judgment. But 160 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:51.559 let's you know, we we do. Let's not stray too 161 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:53.759 far from the point here. We you know, there was 162 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.360 video of him standing in the pulpit saying that we 163 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:01.200 should that we should execute women, and you know they 164 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.440 didn't really comment about anybody in the congregation saying anything 165 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.799 or standing up and leaving. Kelly, what are your thoughts 166 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:10.879 on that? What would you do if you were in 167 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.000 Webins congregation on the day that he said that in 168 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:14.480 the pulpit. 169 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:18.240 I have more morals than mister Webbin has, so I 170 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:20.559 definitely would have said up. I don't know if I 171 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:23.120 would have actually walked out. I might have actually stood 172 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.039 up and said something. So, but I want to point out, 173 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.919 and this might piss everybody off, Joe Webbin is right. 174 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.559 If you kill someone, whether they're a woman, or not, 175 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.519 it does tend to shut them up. Okay, so apparently 176 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.000 he isn't one hundred percent stupid. But if you need 177 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.639 a blueprint for stupid, this guy is it. That's all 178 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:46.200 I'm saying, Ellie, I can I take a second out 179 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.000 from the panel for a second. Mister Webbin, if you 180 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:54.039 feel that I just mischaracterized you, please please contact me. 181 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:58.480 I need the entertainment and I want you to know, though, 182 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.000 that things can get better. I myself, and this is 183 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.879 very true. I was a homeless drug addicted alcoholic suffering 184 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.039 from PTSD and now I run my own business with 185 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:12.759 my son. So things can get better for you. You 186 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:15.919 just have to apply yourself and that thing you know, 187 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.440 your brain, you might as well start using it for something. 188 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:22.679 Thanks everyone for letting me have it more. 189 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:23.279 You know right. 190 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:25.519 I feel like this is a Saturday Afternoon special and 191 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:27.600 this is Kelly given his motivational speech. 192 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:27.799 Here. 193 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.879 Hang in there, Joel Webbin, you know you can turn 194 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:31.600 things around. 195 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.000 Seven. I would like to come back to you for 196 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:39.519 a second here. So, so he's talking. 197 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:42.840 He's talking about this kind of thing from his religious perspective, 198 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:46.000 and I would imagine, although I didn't see his specific 199 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:48.320 justification for saying it. Maybe there'll be some of that 200 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:51.799 in the in the in the blowback here. But so 201 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.559 we're talking, so we're talking about freedom of religion. On 202 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:57.320 one hand, whether or not you think that his religion 203 00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.879 actually promotes the kind of ideas he was promoting. But 204 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.639 we're still talking about freedom of religion. But on the 205 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.799 other hand, we have the safety of the community and 206 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.080 of the public in general. How can we balance that? 207 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:10.639 How can we balance this easy one for you, I'll 208 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:14.320 lobbing you up a softball here. How do we balance 209 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:17.559 religious freedom with person with public safety? 210 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.679 Well, like I think like public safety, like your you're 211 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.879 relig what is it that your religious freedom. 212 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:28.799 Stops at the tip of my nose or something? 213 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:32.200 Right, You're right to swing your arm, that was it. 214 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.200 I'm just going to punch the air. And if you 215 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:38.919 happen to get in the way, like, yeah, your religious 216 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:42.679 liberties start and end with you and they don't extend 217 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:48.159 beyond that. And anyone's safety is not secondary to your 218 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:54.639 religious freedoms. It's while that people would would ever consider otherwise. 219 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.960 And in this fantasy land where you know where you know, 220 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:02.240 white Christian men get to make all the rules in 221 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.559 this fantasy land where where women and children are the 222 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:10.279 property of men, Like, how can yeah, Like, in what 223 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:15.200 way there's there is no room for that in our civilization. Like, 224 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.919 if you want to be having your own private fantasies 225 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.240 about that, that's your discretion, but the rest of civilization 226 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.399 knows better than that, and we will we need to 227 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.759 be able to fight to protect exactly that. 228 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.759 So you think there's a fundamental clash between between his 229 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:36.639 right for religious freedom in this in this particular instance, 230 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:40.080 and the need for public safety and for well and 231 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.279 for it's more than just a matter of public safety, right, 232 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:48.000 it's specifically on women and women's freedom and trust and 233 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.720 feelings of safety in coming forward and reporting acts of 234 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.720 sexual assault in that kind of thing. Yeah, so you 235 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.039 think that there's a fundamental difference that they can't be balanced. 236 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.240 We have to have to lean one way or the 237 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.559 other in this case. Is that what you're saying, Stephen. 238 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.360 Like, well, like, if we're saying that, you know, his 239 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.240 religious freedoms means that he should be able to stone 240 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:12.240 a woman that he found guilty of adultery, then yeah, 241 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:16.679 we're going to curtail those freedoms. But like for him 242 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.200 to believe for him to wish, for him to want, Yeah, 243 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.480 you can cash that in at the bank if you like. 244 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:26.759 But for yeah, like your your what you believe personally, Like, 245 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.960 nobody's going to stop him from believing something. Nobody's going 246 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.279 to stop him from holding that belief, but as soon 247 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:35.679 as that belief is going to have a negative impact. 248 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:37.840 And that was that was such a huge piece of 249 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:43.320 my deconversion, is realizing just how much disrespect I held 250 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.279 for people who weren't a part of my my in circle, 251 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:48.840 my in group, and for me being you know, a 252 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.679 good man and I pacifist. You know, I could do 253 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:54.679 I could still, you know, I could, I could bear 254 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:59.279 that burden for those people without getting violent about it. 255 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.320 But it was still it was still yeah, I still 256 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.399 that doesn't that didn't stop me from holding that that 257 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.559 kernel of disrespect for anybody that was on the outside. 258 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.159 And it was so liberating when I was able to 259 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:14.320 release that and say, hey, those people that think differently 260 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.919 than me aren't inferior to me, but they're actually equal 261 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:18.240 to me. 262 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.720 So so what you're saying then, is that what you 263 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.039 were The way you were talking about society also reflects 264 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.720 kind of like a little microcosm of what's in your 265 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:30.840 what was in your own mind. You know, you had 266 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.320 your own personal clashes. You were religious, you saw this 267 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.960 hateful uh speech and these hateful ideas, and it just 268 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:40.840 there was that fundamental clash and you it just couldn't 269 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.759 you know, it was not couldn't mesh right, And so 270 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.039 that led to your deconversion. And that leads perfectly into 271 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:51.200 my next question for Damien. Will this type of thing 272 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:57.080 lead to the undermining of the respect of religious organizations? 273 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.480 And if that's the case, is that ultimately a good thing. 274 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.960 I think it will lead to the undermining of religious organizations, 275 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:09.039 just in that it's one more example of a of 276 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.519 what we would call an unhinged Christian nationalist pastor. You know, 277 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:17.879 if you're looking for examples of you know, dumb things 278 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.039 that passes have said, you know, I think you can 279 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.679 put up, you know, a Wikipedia page of all the 280 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.200 things that Joel Webbin has said. It's a highlight. And 281 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.679 I think, yeah, it's like it's very hard to now look. 282 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.679 I actually think Joel Webbin should be out there saying 283 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.240 these kind of things because it exposes, you know, what 284 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.039 what he thinks. Because I think the more dangerous thing 285 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.440 is let's say Joel Webbin was an underground church past 286 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.519 that had been suppressed by by the government or by 287 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.320 by other forces. And then you know, let's say he 288 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.840 was running a cult. And then only do you find 289 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.720 out later on, once you're inside, once he and his 290 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:59.759 group have his hooks into you, that you find out 291 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.360 that he calls for the stoning of women who make spurious, 292 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.919 spurious sexual assault claims. Then it's oh, shit, is too 293 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.600 late to get out. But the fact he's upfront and 294 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.360 he's able to say it and record it means we 295 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.600 can see upfront with very little cost to us except 296 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.279 for our time, that this guy is all full of 297 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.960 stupid ideas. So let's get on the front foot and 298 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.519 actually discuss these stupid ideas so we can be the 299 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:24.559 antidote to his stupid ideas. 300 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.919 Right, So shaning later on the situation, right, we want 301 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.840 to expose it so that we can that way we 302 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:30.440 can fix it. 303 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:32.720 And this this is what I'm saying before. But having 304 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.919 the plurality of voices, you know, the answer to bad 305 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.879 speech isn't cutting speech down, is having more speech. So 306 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.399 we can evaluate and have these discussions and bring things 307 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.360 out into the open, so that you know, as I say, 308 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.120 sunlight is the best disinfectant. 309 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:48.799 I agree. 310 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:53.639 I agree completely, so Kelly, as we so as Demian 311 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.600 just said, sunlight is the best disinfectant. If we expose this, 312 00:16:56.679 --> 00:17:00.799 we can talk about it. We can we can make caring, 313 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:06.359 compassionate decisions, reasonable decisions about how to proceed, how to 314 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.359 deal with these types of situations, how to deal with 315 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.160 these types of people that spread these hateful messages. Do 316 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:14.880 you think, Kelly, do you think this is going to 317 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.880 be something that we will that will become less common 318 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:21.839 as we see these things, as we as we shake 319 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.640 our fists, and people read about this in the newspaper 320 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.200 and say that's a horrible thing. Will they still go 321 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:30.039 to church the next Sunday? Or as Steven did, will 322 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.680 some of them start realizing, wait a minute, we have 323 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.160 there's a clash here. I'm going to stop going to 324 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.799 that church or stop going to church at all. Do 325 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:39.880 you think this is a problem that's going to be 326 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.599 around for a while longer or because I have to admit, 327 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.880 it's stuck around a lot longer than I've expected. You know, 328 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.200 this kind of thing that started popping up, you know, 329 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.079 within the last five years, the last eight years or whatever, 330 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.839 and so you know, I expected people to react much 331 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.759 more swiftly and much more severely. Do you think this 332 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.519 is a long term problem or do you think this 333 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.000 is something that will be self correcting, perhaps within our lifetime? 334 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.079 You know, Scott I said it earlier this week, America 335 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.720 was founded by a bunch of crazy religious fanatics. So 336 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.519 is this going to go away? No, it's never going 337 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.759 to go away. Can we fight it? Yes? Should we 338 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.519 fight it? Most definitely? Right? And I think that I 339 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:24.839 think what we're going to see is that, and what 340 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.000 we have seen throughout American history is this kind of 341 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.400 stuff goes in waves, it goes in cycles, and we're 342 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.400 just in a big cycle of it right now. You 343 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.920 know what. I look at this as like one more 344 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:37.119 satanic panic that we're living through. Wait, the first one 345 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:38.920 we got alcohol illegalized. 346 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:39.240 Wooh. 347 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:41.839 And then we had the second satanic a panic in 348 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:44.039 the eighties, and now we're going through another one. And 349 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.359 the first, the second one was about culture, right, Oh, 350 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.799 we can't play D and D rock and roll music 351 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.200 is bad. But this one that we're going through, this 352 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.960 one is actually targeting people. 353 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:54.000 This is bad. 354 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.400 This is alcohol to games, and culture and now the 355 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:01.759 actual people we're attacking with our religion, and so are 356 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:04.039 we going to get rid of it forever? No, this 357 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.000 cycle of it is really, really, really bad though. I 358 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.319 think this is probably the worst Satanic panic we've lived 359 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:10.559 through in the last one hundred years. 360 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.960 All Right, thanks, Kelly Steven, I'm going to give you 361 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.319 the last word. So how I want to make sure 362 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.759 that we bring it back around to the victim, to 363 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:24.759 the real victims of what's happening here. So how does 364 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:29.799 his stance highlight broader cultural challenges surrounding the accountability of 365 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.920 men who have been accused of abuse versus the treatment 366 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.079 of women who report it. 367 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.799 Well, yeah, like, I'm like, I am glad that at 368 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.200 least four of us, you know, sis guys can be 369 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.839 sitting here and like speaking up and holding these shitty 370 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.920 values held by men to the fire, because this is Yeah, 371 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.440 it's one thing for us to say that it's good 372 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.759 for webin here to be to be saying these things 373 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.200 out loud, so that you know, the the world can 374 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.000 hear him say these things. But most importantly, I hope 375 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.440 that the people within his church are hearing him say 376 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:09.319 these things, and that they're actually able to dig in 377 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.279 and say, what do we actually think about this, and 378 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.279 not just say, oh, well Pastor said it, so it 379 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.039 must be good. I know he I was reading the 380 00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:19.720 transcript of that part of his sermon and he actually 381 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.240 doubled down and he recognized that I just made some 382 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.880 people in the congregation here uncomfortable, and that's good because 383 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.240 the truth should make you feel uncomfortable, and like getting 384 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.880 himself really hyped up as a result of that. So 385 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.839 he stands by this kind of narrow view, and we 386 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:39.279 need to yeah, we need to be able to call 387 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.200 it out for what it is and let people know 388 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.599 that there is an alternative to that. I think guys 389 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:49.400 like this are beyond reaching. He has no motivation for 390 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.480 changing his thoughts in this way, like he is at 391 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.839 the top of the pyramid as white sis head Christian pastor. 392 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.920 Like what on earth would possibly motive him to try 393 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.119 to empathize with others. But I think that this is 394 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:07.680 at least one place where atheists and like sane Christians 395 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.839 can be in agreement and say no, this is bullshit. 396 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:15.519 And we in our in our personal sphere where we 397 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.880 do have some flow, influence, some control, this is where 398 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.640 we can say No, these ideas are garbage ideas, and 399 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.279 we will not stand for them, and we will stand 400 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.799 against them. And that's the most that we can do. 401 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.599