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Speaker 4: Great True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. In nineteen sixty nine, the body of a
Speaker 5: young woman was discovered in the woods of Renton, rocking
Speaker 5: the community's along Puget Sound. Three more brutal murders followed
Speaker 5: the attention of multiple police agencies as they tried to
Speaker 5: piece together the meager clues left behind. The seemingly unrelated
Speaker 5: cases challenged detectives who struggled to realize they were all
Speaker 5: connected to one man, Gary Jen Grant. Before the term
Speaker 5: serial killer was even coined, Grant stalked his prey, destroying
Speaker 5: lives and families while walking unseen among the masses. Decades later,
Speaker 5: his crimes have all but been have all but been forgotten.
Speaker 5: Joint author and homicide investigator Cloyd Steiger as he uncovers
Speaker 5: the story of the murderer who slipped through the cracks
Speaker 5: of history. The book they were featuring this evening as
Speaker 5: Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer. Gary jen Grant was my special guest.
Speaker 5: Retired homicide detective and author Cloyd Steiger. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 5: and thank you very much for this interview. Cloyd Steiger, Yeah,
Speaker 5: thank you for having me. Thank you very much, audience.
Speaker 5: A little bit about your background. I just mentioned that
Speaker 5: you were a homicide detective. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about your background and the job that after you retired
Speaker 5: from Homicide division. What job you worked at and had
Speaker 5: some relation to this case. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I spent thirty six years of the Seattle Police Department,
Speaker 2: and the last twenty two of those years I was
Speaker 2: a homicide detective. So I investigated hundreds of murders, everything
Speaker 2: from the gangbanger on the corner to serial killers, mass shooters,
Speaker 2: active shooters, domestic terrorism. And I retired in twenty sixteen
Speaker 2: and I went to work for the Washington State Attorney
Speaker 2: General Homicide Investigation Tracking System. That's a system that was
Speaker 2: set up back in the days. It was actually originated
Speaker 2: in Bundy days and then in the Green River days
Speaker 2: because of agencies not having information across yours lions and
Speaker 2: Bob Keppel, who is well known in the murder industry,
Speaker 2: set this thing up right and he was the chief
Speaker 2: criminal investigator at that time, and that's the position I
Speaker 2: have now as the chief criminal investigator. So I run
Speaker 2: that unit and I supervised the investigators and analysts across
Speaker 2: the state to we track every murder that happens in
Speaker 2: the state and also in Oregon in Montana. But we
Speaker 2: also like consult with agencies, especially small agencies that just
Speaker 2: don't have there any murders that don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: We offer them expertise and also resources if they need it.
Speaker 2: And so that's what I do. But it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's a great job as a retirement job, because it's
Speaker 2: eight o'clock in the morning before and the afternoon every day.
Speaker 2: I know a time I'm going home every day, and
Speaker 2: they never called me at one thirty in the morning.
Speaker 2: So that's the difference in this my old.
Speaker 5: Now you're an author of another book called The View
Speaker 5: from Inside the Yellow Tape, and this is a true crime,
Speaker 5: but they consider a true crime memoir Uh, tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about this. And you were talking to
Speaker 5: a reader of this book one day and he mentioned
Speaker 5: something to you. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: this book and the success of this book and then
Speaker 5: what it led to in terms of this project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wrote. People would always ask me, non
Speaker 2: police people that I knew, to tell them about my work,
Speaker 2: and I'd tell them things and they just be fascinated.
Speaker 2: You know. I talked to me, I'm talking about a
Speaker 2: day at work like anybody else, And I look at
Speaker 2: them in their mouths are hanging open, and they keep hearing.
Speaker 2: You got to write a book. You got to write
Speaker 2: a book. And so when I was getting close to retiring,
Speaker 2: I thought, I just started toying around with the idea
Speaker 2: and then I just started writing stuff down and before
Speaker 2: you knew it, you know, I had a book. So
Speaker 2: and I published it through Amazon and it actually took
Speaker 2: off really well. I mean I got a lot of sales,
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of interviews in the news,
Speaker 2: a lot of media coverage, a lot of podcasts and
Speaker 2: so and then I did advertise thing through Amazon. But
Speaker 2: it's been it's sold pretty well. It's consistently so it
Speaker 2: has been out in a couple of weeks, I mean
Speaker 2: a couple of years. And so one day I get
Speaker 2: an email from some guy that has read the book
Speaker 2: and he said, hey, what do you know about Gary Grant?
Speaker 2: He was a guy killing kids and people in Renting
Speaker 2: in the late sixties early seventies. And you know, I'm
Speaker 2: kind of a student of serial killers, especially ones from
Speaker 2: this region, and there are many of them, but I
Speaker 2: had never heard of Gary Grant, so I was kind
Speaker 2: of surprised by that. My main interest was for this
Speaker 2: job that I have now because to put that case
Speaker 2: in the database. So I had to one of my
Speaker 2: analysts call the Renton Police Department and they said, well,
Speaker 2: we don't really have it. We have his name here,
Speaker 2: but not much. And then they called the King County Sheriff,
Speaker 2: who also handled some of the cases. They didn't have much.
Speaker 2: So I called the King County Prosecutors Office and to
Speaker 2: the area of the homicide or the prescu's office he
Speaker 2: handles all the murders and the paralegal there and I said, hey,
Speaker 2: do you have a case on this guy or a
Speaker 2: court file? And she said, let me check. I'll get
Speaker 2: back to in a few days later. Ship call said, yeah,
Speaker 2: we have it. Can I borrow it? She said sure,
Speaker 2: So I went down and got it and it was
Speaker 2: thousands of pages, and I just scanned the entire case
Speaker 2: file again to put it in our database of all
Speaker 2: these murders, because we want to have all serial murders, right,
Speaker 2: we have every murder from about nineteen eighty three forward
Speaker 2: going backward, we have select murders that we know about,
Speaker 2: any unsolved involving especially female victims or in our database
Speaker 2: that we know about it, and any serial killings we
Speaker 2: hear about. But so that's what happened. And then so
Speaker 2: I had it all and I was reading through it
Speaker 2: and literally I'm driving down the road in my phone
Speaker 2: rings and it's people from History Press and they said,
Speaker 2: that's a public company. They said, hey, we saw you
Speaker 2: wrote that book. That homicide book's doing pretty well. You
Speaker 2: saw quite a few of copies and said, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2: And they go, we're looking for true crime, semi historic,
Speaker 2: like twenty or thirty years minimum old. That would be interesting.
Speaker 2: Do you have any cases to like that you know of?
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, are you kidding me? I just read
Speaker 2: this case, so yeah, I said, oh yeah, I have
Speaker 2: something in mind. So yeah, they said, they emailed me
Speaker 2: some slips and filet of proposal. The only thing they
Speaker 2: were nervous about was that little kids were involved in
Speaker 2: which is always a it's hard to write about that.
Speaker 2: So that was their only hitch. But finally they said, no,
Speaker 2: write the book. So I did.
Speaker 5: A fantastic Did you talk about in the introduction that
Speaker 5: you had particularly some help because you know, by the
Speaker 5: time something like this happens thirty years later, twenty thirty
Speaker 5: years later, some people are passed away. So just briefly
Speaker 5: tell us where you did get some incredible cooperation from
Speaker 5: people that were still living that were connected to the case.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it started with I was hutting down going
Speaker 2: to find detectives who work on it, and most of them,
Speaker 2: a lot of them had passed away. But I happen
Speaker 2: to know the mayor of the town of Renton, and
Speaker 2: so I sent him an email, Hey, listen, I'm trying
Speaker 2: to I'm looking into this case. The onlybody is anybody
Speaker 2: still around? And he hooked me up with a city
Speaker 2: council and that was a retired Renton policeman that was
Speaker 2: on the department back then, and then he I went
Speaker 2: to his house and met him, and he called this guy,
Speaker 2: called this guy and gave me all these guys that
Speaker 2: were still alive that worked on the case. So I
Speaker 2: started talking to them and getting their information. The judge
Speaker 2: in the case, his son was a prosecutor that I knew,
Speaker 2: and I, you know, I presumed his dad was gone,
Speaker 2: but I said, hey, your dad worked on this case.
Speaker 2: And then he goes, you want to talk to you
Speaker 2: about it? He's still around. I said, you're kidding, So
Speaker 2: he's in his nineties. I got a hold of him. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the elected prosecutor at the time. I got a hold
Speaker 2: of him and he was real cooperative. And then one
Speaker 2: of the other prosecutors in the case was was somebody
Speaker 2: I knew because he was still when I was working,
Speaker 2: and I talked to him, and then as a matter
Speaker 2: of fact, you know that was probably could find. And
Speaker 2: then just today I got an email from one of
Speaker 2: the defense attorneys that I didn't know was still alive.
Speaker 2: I said, man, I wish i'd got this email from
Speaker 2: you before I wrote the book. Another good resource, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to him later. But so that's
Speaker 2: you know that I just was snipping around where I
Speaker 2: could get it, talking to people, and because of the
Speaker 2: events that went on in this case, there are a
Speaker 2: lot of tristan turns that people remembered it really well,
Speaker 2: you know. And then a couple of them, well, one
Speaker 2: of the proscooters was no longer alive. He just died
Speaker 2: a year before. But his son, who was himself a
Speaker 2: former prosecutor is now a private attorney, knew all about
Speaker 2: this case because his dad talked to him all the
Speaker 2: time about it because it really bothered him because these
Speaker 2: two six year old boys that were some of the victims.
Speaker 2: This guy was talking to the attorney now was six
Speaker 2: when it happened, and his dad was prosecuting the case,
Speaker 2: and he said it really affected him. And when he
Speaker 2: himself became a prosecutor, they talked about this case a lot,
Speaker 2: and then he was a great resource. So you know,
Speaker 2: like I said, I just it was just kind of
Speaker 2: be in. You got to being protective right down. Your
Speaker 2: witness doesn't talk to him. That's what I did.
Speaker 5: Right now, you described for those people that didn't live
Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty nine, and so many years have passed
Speaker 5: about the turbulent time it was in America. Richard Nixon
Speaker 5: was his first year of presidency, there was a protest
Speaker 5: on the streets in America over the Vietnam War. There
Speaker 5: was the Apollo eleven moon landing, and the previous summer
Speaker 5: people were shocked, to say the least, by the murders
Speaker 5: by the Charles Manson cult as you write. And this
Speaker 5: was a few years before Ted Bundy stocked women in
Speaker 5: the local area, and the term serial killer, as we
Speaker 5: said in the introduction, was not yet in the American lexicon.
Speaker 5: Take us to Renton, Washington, you say, is one hundred
Speaker 5: thousand people in twenty and nineteen, but in nineteen sixty
Speaker 5: nine it was a small place. Tell us where Renton
Speaker 5: is situated. And then tell us about December sixteenth, nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty nine, and a guy named Edward Stewart is doing
Speaker 5: some fishing right so well.
Speaker 2: Renton is about eleven miles southeast of downtown Seattle. That's
Speaker 2: the whole east side of Seattle. Border of the Seattle
Speaker 2: on the east side is Lake Washington, which is a
Speaker 2: huge lake that runs from north of the city all
Speaker 2: the way down to south of the city. And Renton
Speaker 2: is at the south tip of Lake Washington. There's a
Speaker 2: river called the Cedar River that dumps into Lake Washington
Speaker 2: and Renton is there. The Renton is the only thing
Speaker 2: Renton is known for really is that Jimmy Hendricks is
Speaker 2: buried there in the cemetery. He's the most famous for it.
Speaker 1: So he the.
Speaker 2: The There's a Boeing plant in Renton, that's the biggest employer.
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty nine, the population was about ten thousand,
Speaker 2: but the Boeing plant there was put out bombers B
Speaker 2: twenty nine during the war during World War two, and
Speaker 2: then after the war ended it it kind of switched
Speaker 2: over to seven O seven's and then the area grew
Speaker 2: and grew and grew. Like I said, it's it's over
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand now and actually the seven thirty seven
Speaker 2: max is being built that the Renton plant now or was.
Speaker 2: So that's that's that's the history of it's grown. It's
Speaker 2: it's like anything else. That was a small town with
Speaker 2: a small town seal down, but now it's the bosom
Speaker 2: of suburbia, you know, with a you know, shopping mall
Speaker 2: and call that stuff into a lot of people. And well,
Speaker 2: the police department at that time it was only about
Speaker 2: forty people the whole police department, and they had five detectives,
Speaker 2: and so, yeah, it was a very small operation. They
Speaker 2: had very few murders in rent and they'd go three,
Speaker 2: four or five years without a single murder, and when
Speaker 2: it did happen, it was usually a bar fight that
Speaker 2: got out of control, or you know what we used
Speaker 2: to call the smoking gun murders. You know, nobody it's
Speaker 2: not a who done it. Not everybody knew who did it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's what they're their only experience of murders. So anyway,
Speaker 2: on that December day in nineteen sixty nine, this guy
Speaker 2: is walking down the Stewart walking down to the river
Speaker 2: because he wants to go fishing that afternoon. He's checking
Speaker 2: their conditions and there's a muddy trail that at that
Speaker 2: time went along the west side of the river bank,
Speaker 2: and he was taking that and he went around the corner.
Speaker 2: He saw, of course, what they always think a mannequin
Speaker 2: laying on the ground. As he got closer, he realized
Speaker 2: it wasn't a manneicut at all. It was a woman
Speaker 2: and she was dead and nude. So he was kind
Speaker 2: of shocked and turned around and ran back, and he
Speaker 2: ran into a buddy of his on the way back,
Speaker 2: and he told him what we saw him. They came
Speaker 2: back and the guy looked at it to make sure,
Speaker 2: and then they went and called the police. And that's
Speaker 2: how this this whole case started. So the police came.
Speaker 2: Obviously they didn't they had no idea who this woman was.
Speaker 2: They had no idea what was going on. But there
Speaker 2: was some There were some papers backpack laying nearby. They
Speaker 2: had had some papers in it, like school papers and
Speaker 2: a name, and so they looked at the papers and
Speaker 2: figured out the name was Carol Erickson on the papers.
Speaker 2: Now they didn't know if that was really this person
Speaker 2: there were She's obviously been at that Yeah, she had
Speaker 2: been The shoes on her back at that point, her
Speaker 2: hands were over her head, she had a sweater on
Speaker 2: that was like mostly pulled up, exposing her breast, and
Speaker 2: she was nude from the way. The rest of her
Speaker 2: body was nude on the way down. So when they
Speaker 2: met Lexander got there and they rolled the body, thought
Speaker 2: she had one single stab wound to the center of
Speaker 2: her back and that she had been also strangled her shoelaces,
Speaker 2: so that's what they had. They went they finally identified
Speaker 2: her as Carol Ericson. I talking to friends and family,
Speaker 2: and it ended up that Carol was a student at
Speaker 2: a local vocational school up the hill. She was nineteen
Speaker 2: years old, up the top of the hill from where
Speaker 2: she was there was a vocational school and she was
Speaker 2: in culinary arts there. And she lived in an apartment
Speaker 2: with a friend right down town, not too far from
Speaker 2: where she was found. And she was walking. She'd walked
Speaker 2: to the library the night before to study for some
Speaker 2: tests she had coming up in her class. And instead
Speaker 2: of taking the city streets to she walked this path.
Speaker 2: She would walk this path down the river. And you know,
Speaker 2: people told her when she went there it was light,
Speaker 2: it was okay, but people said, yeah, you shouldn't walk
Speaker 2: down there dark. But she just blew him off, you know, oh, no,
Speaker 2: it's fine. She So she was apparently on her way
Speaker 2: back because she'd been to the library. She was on
Speaker 2: her way back when she was attacked from behind. And
Speaker 2: of course, like everything else, you get whenever there's a
Speaker 2: who's donnet murder, especially if you've never done those heads,
Speaker 2: you're spinning your wheels, You're going down all kinds of
Speaker 2: these rabbit holes that have nothing at all to do
Speaker 2: with your case. And that's what happened in this case,
Speaker 2: they spent weeks going down rabbit holes, nothing solid ever happened,
Speaker 2: and it kind of just was petering out.
Speaker 5: Who are that you introduced to detectives are important to
Speaker 5: the story, Detective Don Dashna and Wally Hume. Right, you
Speaker 5: also talk about another person that's in the story reoccurring
Speaker 5: is doctor Gail Wilson, who's the medical examiner. What does
Speaker 5: she find that they don't ascertain at the crime scene,
Speaker 5: these detectives. What does she find out in this medical
Speaker 5: examination of Carol?
Speaker 2: Actually, actually doctor Wilson is a man. It's Gail like
Speaker 2: the man. Sorry, well they find out when doctor Wilson.
Speaker 2: First of all, he was a long time medical executor.
Speaker 2: I mean this was in nineteen sixty nine. I was
Speaker 2: looking when I was still working. I looked into a
Speaker 2: murder from nineteen thirty six of a little girl and
Speaker 2: I pulled that file out and he did the autopsy
Speaker 2: in that case. And then since I've been working at
Speaker 2: HITS now, I looked at a nineteen seventy seventh case
Speaker 2: and he did the autopsy in that. So, I mean
Speaker 2: he was a long time medical examinter. But he determined
Speaker 2: that Carol had been. The fatal was a stabdoor back
Speaker 2: that had punctured her heart and killed her almost instantly.
Speaker 2: She has also strangled either paramortem like at the moment
Speaker 2: of death or post mortem with her shoelaces, and she
Speaker 2: had been sexually assaulted. That's what he found.
Speaker 5: So how do they undertake to investigate this and what
Speaker 5: does it lead to?
Speaker 2: Well, they did a lot of work. I mean, it
Speaker 2: didn't need to any of it, you know, that's the
Speaker 2: same because they didn't have any I tell people all
Speaker 2: the time that detectives of that era had basically a
Speaker 2: hammer and a saw, where I have an entire construction
Speaker 2: company with power tools at my disposal of the day
Speaker 2: as far as the science that's available. So they had nothing,
Speaker 2: no tools, and it didn't unless you got a witness
Speaker 2: or somebody. You know, they went, they went to the
Speaker 2: library and talked to everybody, put things in the paper.
Speaker 2: Were you at the library on Monday night? Did you
Speaker 2: see this girl there? And you know, they got a
Speaker 2: couple of leads about creepy guys are hanging out by
Speaker 2: the front. But you know, like most of those leads,
Speaker 2: they just kind of peter out. They could never figure
Speaker 2: anything out. So that like this case kind of just slowly,
Speaker 2: slowly faded in activity because they didn't have much wanter
Speaker 2: go on, and it just kind of went cold in
Speaker 2: the first two months.
Speaker 5: Right, they even talk about detectives making a plea to
Speaker 5: the public through the newspaper's Seattle Times. You talk about
Speaker 5: September nineteenth, nineteen seventies, so maybe nine months later, he's
Speaker 5: still in Rentin. A girl named Juanne Marie Zuloff, a
Speaker 5: seventeen year old, tell us about what happens with her.
Speaker 2: Okay, actually that her address was an unincorporated King County
Speaker 2: just outside the Renton city limits. It was a Rentin
Speaker 2: mailing address, and today it is in the city of Lenton.
Speaker 2: But she was home with her She lived there with
Speaker 2: her parents and sister, and her parents have been gone
Speaker 2: all day and then they came home and they were
Speaker 2: going to make dinner, and she says, I'm gonna go
Speaker 2: for a walk. I'll be back in twenty minutes. And
Speaker 2: so she left the house and at like about four
Speaker 2: o'clock in the afternoon, walked out of her house. A
Speaker 2: neighbor outside saw her walk past him and into it.
Speaker 2: There's a big wooded area, huge acres and acres of
Speaker 2: woods right by their house, and she went down the
Speaker 2: trail like she did a lot when she walked. She
Speaker 2: just didn't come home. And so of course her parents
Speaker 2: started worrying about her. And then they got in the car,
Speaker 2: were driving around all and our friends, have you seen
Speaker 2: have you seen Joanne? Has anybody seen Joanne? You know,
Speaker 2: and nobody saw her, and they're freaking out. They finally,
Speaker 2: you know, late, like at eight o'clock in the evening,
Speaker 2: they called the King County Sheriff's office to tandled that area,
Speaker 2: and of course the dispatcher said, well, you know, let's
Speaker 2: just wait see if she comes back. Now she kind
Speaker 2: of blew it off a little bit, which was in retrospect,
Speaker 2: was kind of a mistake, but you know, she'd probably
Speaker 2: be back. She's a she's a seventeen year old girl,
Speaker 2: and and maybe she ran away, and so they didn't go.
Speaker 2: So the next morning, you know this, the parents of course,
Speaker 2: are panicky all that long because she's not a runaway.
Speaker 2: This is not anything she would do. And so the
Speaker 2: next morning they go. She coincidentally also went to the
Speaker 2: same vocational school as Carol Erickson. They didn't know evidence
Speaker 2: they knew each other, they didn't take the same classes.
Speaker 2: But so she went to that school to talk to
Speaker 2: her friends to see if if she showed up at school,
Speaker 2: does they really know where she is. Finally, in the
Speaker 2: afternoon they called the police again and a shriff step
Speaker 2: he was pretty sharp, came out. He looked at this,
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, I don't like this at all, and
Speaker 2: so he called this supervisor and says, yeah, this is
Speaker 2: not a runaway. We need to get a search one
Speaker 2: right now. So they started a high level search. They
Speaker 2: brought in such a rescue people and everything. They and
Speaker 2: they started searching the area with dogs. So about midnight
Speaker 2: that night, one of the dog handlers calls up says,
Speaker 2: come down here. So they go down there and on
Speaker 2: this trail, about thirty feet away in the brush is
Speaker 2: the new body of Johann Zulaf. She'd been strangled to
Speaker 2: death excuse me, apparently hit in the head with a
Speaker 2: hard object. Also, but she also is nude, and it
Speaker 2: was kind of the same story as as Carol, although
Speaker 2: again this is a different This is the Sheriff's not
Speaker 2: the city police, and they didn't it's no more experience
Speaker 2: because they have a lot of area. But to their credit,
Speaker 2: early on, one of the detectives at the Sheriff's off says,
Speaker 2: you know, Wrentton had that case a few months ago.
Speaker 2: We should talk to them and compare notes. And so
Speaker 2: they did, but you know, they didn't have anything to
Speaker 2: go on. Yeah, it's very similar, but who knows. And
Speaker 2: so they started again another murdered investigation that went down
Speaker 2: a bunch of rabbit holes and and they went all
Speaker 2: over the place and nothing they were doing had anything
Speaker 2: to do with the case, because you don't know the time.
Speaker 2: But they got you know, everybody in the world is
Speaker 2: this guy did it and that guy did it. And
Speaker 2: you go chasing all these leads and none of them
Speaker 2: panned out, and that one same thing. They started just
Speaker 2: petering out.
Speaker 5: With this one. Though there they have a composite drawing
Speaker 5: because of from a witness. So that composite is crazy.
Speaker 2: That would happen, Yeah, that would happen to the compositives.
Speaker 2: When the parents were driving around, they were at one
Speaker 2: point down the street and they saw a guy come
Speaker 2: out of the woods and they looked at him and
Speaker 2: that and that that's what they threw the compositi of
Speaker 2: this guy they saw come out of the woods. So
Speaker 2: they did. They brought they put that in the paper
Speaker 2: and anybody know this guy. And it came home with
Speaker 2: a couple of leads, but nothing that was really nothing
Speaker 2: that ended up getting helping him solve the case. But
Speaker 2: that ends up none of those leads they got had
Speaker 2: anything to do with this case. They didn't know at
Speaker 2: the time, of course, but yeah, so there was a
Speaker 2: little bit more. They had more resources at their disposal
Speaker 2: because they were much larger department. You know, that was
Speaker 2: I don't know, a big sheriff's offices, but the much
Speaker 2: larger department that's the Sheriff's office the handle Seattle, you know,
Speaker 2: around the Seattle area, King County, So you know, it's
Speaker 2: a bigger department. But the same thing though. They worked
Speaker 2: on it for months and tracked things down, but didn't
Speaker 2: come up with anything.
Speaker 5: You take us to April nineteen seventy one, Bradley Lyon's
Speaker 5: six year old and is supposed to meet with his friend.
Speaker 5: Tell us this story about Little Quiet neighborhood and these
Speaker 5: two six year old boys on their bicycles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so again in April next year they were in
Speaker 2: this is again these kids went where they lived at
Speaker 2: that time, was unincorporated King County, uh not in the
Speaker 2: city of Renting, but had a rent and address. And
Speaker 2: it was a Tuesday, and the normally would there be school,
Speaker 2: but it was one of those teachers workshop days or
Speaker 2: something when everybody has a day off and the teacher
Speaker 2: just work in the school. And so Brad Lyons and
Speaker 2: Scott Andrews, they were good friends, lived nearby in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: And you know, after they each one of them ran
Speaker 2: some errands with his mom in the morning, and then
Speaker 2: they went out to play and they were playing outside,
Speaker 2: and you know, other neighborhood kids were outside, and one
Speaker 2: of the mothers said that they saw the boys in
Speaker 2: the back in their backyard, and they came in, asked
Speaker 2: for cookies, and brought out his friends cookies and they
Speaker 2: were playing and everything. And about a while later she
Speaker 2: had to go somewhere, so she looked. She sees her
Speaker 2: younger son. It's the neighborhood kids. But she hadn't see
Speaker 2: her oldest son. As you what, bread is Brad out there?
Speaker 2: And she goes, well, he and Scott are playing in
Speaker 2: the woods because there's again a huge wooded area right
Speaker 2: next to where they and so okay, she didn't think
Speaker 2: aning of it. They'd play in the woods all the time,
Speaker 2: and this is you know, nothing ever happened up there.
Speaker 2: This wasn't a bad neighborhood. She didn't think anything of
Speaker 2: it at all. So they went about their business. But
Speaker 2: later on, you know, kids didn't come back. Kids didn't
Speaker 2: come back, and then so they were getting obviously very concerned,
Speaker 2: and by starting to get dark, now they're going to
Speaker 2: call the police because you know, these kids, these six
Speaker 2: year old kids are gone and it's after dark, and
Speaker 2: of course you had two six year old kids like that. Again,
Speaker 2: it was the King County Sheriff's office that initially responded,
Speaker 2: and they they didn't hesitate for a minute. You know,
Speaker 2: they started doing this search, but they were you know,
Speaker 2: it was the wooded area where these kids went into.
Speaker 2: I don't know any because it was it was probably
Speaker 2: hundreds of acres, It was a big forested area, and
Speaker 2: so you know, it took a lot and they searched
Speaker 2: and search, and then the plea went out that these
Speaker 2: kids are missing. You know, have you seen these kids?
Speaker 2: And the river, the Cedar River, the same one that
Speaker 2: Carol eric. So it was found murdered by a downriver
Speaker 2: At that point, it kind of winds through there, and
Speaker 2: everybody was fearful the kids had fallen in the river
Speaker 2: and then washed away, so and that's what everybody feared.
Speaker 2: But it went off for two or three days. They
Speaker 2: didn't find these kids, and then one day, finally on
Speaker 2: the third day, one of the volunteers, the searcher, is
Speaker 2: walking through a wooded area and he just sees something
Speaker 2: out of the corner's eye. He looks over me. He
Speaker 2: sees a tough to blonde hair and there's a pile
Speaker 2: of leaves and debrised and he walks and looks and
Speaker 2: he sees the other kid's hair and he goes, oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh. He runs and gets the police and they
Speaker 2: find that's it. They're there and then and then but
Speaker 2: when they get there and they find where they are
Speaker 2: now they're actually in the city of Rent and so
Speaker 2: it's back to the Rent and police department. What's the
Speaker 2: county helping them? But it's like these kids have been murdered,
Speaker 2: and they found they were both nw. They were laid
Speaker 2: side by side. One of them had wood had been
Speaker 2: stabbed to death and the other had like a like
Speaker 2: a blind cord around his neck and tied and so
Speaker 2: and they were again both dude, and they again had
Speaker 2: no idea who did this. It was That's just there was.
Speaker 2: It was a big case. It was first of all,
Speaker 2: it was the Renton Police. City of Renton had never
Speaker 2: had a double murder in their history at that point,
Speaker 2: never and not double murder of children. It was the
Speaker 2: worst murder and Renton history to that point.
Speaker 5: You talk about when they called the Renton Police, now
Speaker 5: detectives dash Near Dashna Kubner, Wally Hume, de Texas, Caldwell, Henry,
Speaker 5: and uh Pavone. Those guys all arrive at the scene
Speaker 5: and Sergeant Plan as well. But you say that the
Speaker 5: killer does something quite unusual and it says something psychologically
Speaker 5: about about the killer and his motivations.
Speaker 2: Are you talking about what was their faces and stuff?
Speaker 5: Well, you're talking the body is being covered and what
Speaker 5: that really? Oh yeah, psychologically?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well sometimes because you know, of course they didn't know.
Speaker 2: This is as the other girls. The other girls were
Speaker 2: not covered. They were both dragged. Both those girls were
Speaker 2: dragged from where they were originally assaulted to where they
Speaker 2: were found. But this this these kids, yeah, they were
Speaker 2: covered and their face is covered, which you know, anytime
Speaker 2: you have a covered face, it's sometimes it's like a
Speaker 2: psychological undoing. The person doesn't want the bought the victim
Speaker 2: to look at them and I didn't do this, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm covering you up. You don't really exist, you know,
Speaker 2: you can't I can't see you, so you don't really exist.
Speaker 2: And that's something that tells you in these type of things,
Speaker 2: the psychological or the you know, the person does something
Speaker 2: and then is like freaked out that they did it.
Speaker 2: That's kind of what it shows. You know, whenever you
Speaker 2: see somebody's face covered or you know, there's things you
Speaker 2: look for and i'm urder scene if there's if you
Speaker 2: have a scene where there's attacks to the face like
Speaker 2: stablings to the face or shooting in the face, that's
Speaker 2: a personal attack. That means the person either personally knew
Speaker 2: this person or was transposing someone they did know for
Speaker 2: this person, you know, if they're crazy. So that's that's
Speaker 2: what you look for. And you also look for faces
Speaker 2: covered head turned intentionally of a victim away from where
Speaker 2: the suspect would have been, and that's that tells you
Speaker 2: that you know, it's it's an undoing or psychological undoing
Speaker 2: by the killer.
Speaker 5: What about the stab wounds to the to uh Scott Andrews.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Scott was multiple times in the chest, very you know,
Speaker 2: very quickly he was. And he also had a like
Speaker 2: he's been punched in the face. He had a little
Speaker 2: mark on his face like he you know, he'd been
Speaker 2: hit and so he was it was a blitz attack,
Speaker 2: you know. And then the other little boy again, he
Speaker 2: had he'd been strangled with a with a cord from
Speaker 2: a blind that were tied around his neck and that's
Speaker 2: how he died.
Speaker 5: What about any kind of prince shoe prince fingerprints?
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, so that Yeah, when they right next to
Speaker 2: the body, they found a tennis shoe print. It was
Speaker 2: very filthy dirt there and they got a very clear
Speaker 2: tennis shoe print and it looked like, you know, like
Speaker 2: an athletic shoe that were common at that time. But
Speaker 2: they did a lot to preserve it. They photographed it,
Speaker 2: they cast it in plaster Paris, and that later became
Speaker 2: a very key point of evidence in this case.
Speaker 5: What about the murder weapon. What about the search for
Speaker 5: a possible murder weapon? How did that turn out?
Speaker 2: Well, if this a few days later, they got the
Speaker 2: idea to go back with dogs and try to look
Speaker 2: search area for the weapon. They've done this at Carol
Speaker 2: Erickson's also, but didn't find the knife. So they did
Speaker 2: it again and they went through the not too far
Speaker 2: away in the brush. They found a knife and it
Speaker 2: was consistent with the wounds that were on the victims.
Speaker 2: So they you know, obviously seized that right away and
Speaker 2: took it right to the crime lab immediately to start
Speaker 2: examining it. Right in the meantime that the.
Speaker 5: Sorry sorry interrupt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just said. In the meantime that other big
Speaker 2: league that came out between actually finding the boys and
Speaker 2: finding the knife, there was the guy walking into the
Speaker 2: hospital that kind of had a big effect in this case.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Let's use is that just as an opportunity to
Speaker 5: break for a couple of commercials. We'll be right back
Speaker 5: after these messages. How we're back. We're just talking about
Speaker 5: what was interesting in this case. Right after these boys
Speaker 5: were found, these two six year old boys were found,
Speaker 5: and there's some evidence at this crime scene that there
Speaker 5: was somebody reported to be walking at the hospital. Tell
Speaker 5: us what happens person wandering and acting odd at the hospital.
Speaker 2: Okay, well this person Valley Medical Center, that's what it's
Speaker 2: called now. A Valve Medical Center is Valley General Hospital
Speaker 2: back then is a hospital in the city of Britain.
Speaker 2: And this young girl nineteen year old, was working at
Speaker 2: the admission desk in the r and this guy comes
Speaker 2: in and he just sits down in the waiting area.
Speaker 2: He doesn't say anything, and she watching for agmans. He
Speaker 2: goes says, can I help you, and he's like, really,
Speaker 2: Audi won't talk to her, and he just starts kind
Speaker 2: of talking nonsensically. So she's like, didn't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: She goes gets the charge nurse and she comes out
Speaker 2: and he starts telling her that he has these problems.
Speaker 2: He needs to go to the hospital every now and then.
Speaker 2: So she takes him back into the er and he
Speaker 2: says and gets the doctor, the er doctor. And one
Speaker 2: of the things this guy says is I haven't urged
Speaker 2: to her children. I just feel like I could hurt children.
Speaker 2: And then I think that's odd, you know. But they
Speaker 2: give him authorizen shot and put him in the room
Speaker 2: there and everything, and don't don't think anything of it, really,
Speaker 2: I mean, he's just a cite patient and he's obviously
Speaker 2: got issues. So that's what happens at that point. A
Speaker 2: couple days later, now that that same doctor, it ends
Speaker 2: up that guy walked into the hospital the same day
Speaker 2: the boys went missing. Okay, so that same doctor was
Speaker 2: at home a couple of days later, and he has
Speaker 2: a young daughter and his wife picking a daughter up
Speaker 2: for school. She goes, you know, the super boys are
Speaker 2: still missing, and wonder what happened to him? And then
Speaker 2: he you know, he heard about it, but he hadn't
Speaker 2: paid much attention. He starts looking like, what what's going on?
Speaker 2: And the kids, oh yeah, and he goes and he said,
Speaker 2: starts thinking about this patient that on Tuesday, the day
Speaker 2: this the kids went missing, this patent came into his
Speaker 2: hospital fan he had the surge of her children and
Speaker 2: he kind of went, oh my god, I wonder if
Speaker 2: he had something to do with this. But they didn't
Speaker 2: know if he could tell anybody because the doctor patient privileged.
Speaker 2: So he called the hospital and got ahold of the
Speaker 2: hospital lawyers, and they discussed it and they found an
Speaker 2: accession a battered child exception to the doctor patient privilege,
Speaker 2: and so they say, you can call the police. So
Speaker 2: he called the police and when the detectives got the
Speaker 2: message that this doctor was calling, they were standing over
Speaker 2: the bodies of Scott Andrews and Bradley Lyons. Yeah so yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it's like, oh my god. So they rush
Speaker 2: over two detectives, one King County detective of one Renting detective,
Speaker 2: go to the hospital and they start talking to this
Speaker 2: doctor find out what's going on. Then they go in
Speaker 2: and they talk to this guy John Chance and you know,
Speaker 2: and they start asking him some questions and he's kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, a little out of it, and they asked
Speaker 2: him if he hurt the kids. He goes, well, I
Speaker 2: can't imagine that I did. I don't remember that type
Speaker 2: of thing. So they decide they're going to take him
Speaker 2: downtown to Seattle, to Harbor View, which is the big
Speaker 2: trauma center, but it's also got a big psych ward
Speaker 2: and so we're going to take the harbor View. So
Speaker 2: they take him to harbor View and we're going to
Speaker 2: come back tomorrow and talking. Okay, So they drop muffet Harborview,
Speaker 2: and there's some issues about whether Harbor VIW will keep him,
Speaker 2: but they end up keeping him for a while. He
Speaker 2: goes to he goes they go back down there to
Speaker 2: the day and they start questioning him and he's certainly
Speaker 2: he wants to tell him all about this murder. And
Speaker 2: he tells them that he took these kids and he
Speaker 2: did this, and he starts describing all the detail and
Speaker 2: he covered them up, and they're like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: So they take him out and they drive him down
Speaker 2: to the scene where the boys show us where the
Speaker 2: boys are found, and he starts trumpets for the brush
Speaker 2: and he can't find anything, and he's doing all this stuff,
Speaker 2: but he knows all this stuff, so that this is
Speaker 2: our guy, right, So they they have a prosecutor. They
Speaker 2: just they erect him for the murder because he's told
Speaker 2: them all about it and confess to them. Well, ends
Speaker 2: up later, I'll tell you how he knew all this stuff.
Speaker 2: But they put him in jail and a couple of
Speaker 2: days later he's actually charged with the murder of the
Speaker 2: two boys. And the mistake the police made and this
Speaker 2: was a rookie mistake by them, but by not knowing
Speaker 2: about murders that much, not by the detectives but by
Speaker 2: the administration is when they release things. So they told
Speaker 2: the media everything that happened. So if you go back
Speaker 2: to the news papers from that day, you can see
Speaker 2: the entire thing described. So there's no doubt that this
Speaker 2: guy gone chance, got a newspaper and read the account,
Speaker 2: and they just regurgitated what he read in the paper
Speaker 2: to the detectives. I mean he may have really, because
Speaker 2: then he went back and forth, Yeah I did it, No,
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. So I mean he was he
Speaker 2: was absolutely you know, a real sanity issues. I mean,
Speaker 2: he was like a but he wasn't stupid. I mean,
Speaker 2: he had like an advanced degree from Columbia University and
Speaker 2: had been a teacher, but he just had all these
Speaker 2: metal issues that he caused all these problems. So he
Speaker 2: gets charged and so then he's in jail for the murder.
Speaker 2: The big news we got the guy that killed the kids.
Speaker 2: Well that's when they decided to go search for that knife.
Speaker 2: I mean he's there already in the protest, but that's
Speaker 2: the knife is found. After that, they sent it to
Speaker 2: the crime lab. They take the crime lab, the guy
Speaker 2: Kay Sweeney, who I actually know from when I worked.
Speaker 2: He was still there for a long time. He was
Speaker 2: examining the knife and it's got a it's got like
Speaker 2: black electroc tape all over the hilt the unwindest okay,
Speaker 2: trying to see if they can get fingerprints out of it.
Speaker 2: When he gets to the bottom, he sees there's a
Speaker 2: name etch the end of the knife, and he calls up, Hey,
Speaker 2: there's a name etches this knife. He goes, you're kidding me.
Speaker 2: So they get the information, they figure out who this
Speaker 2: guy is. Well, I find out this guy is a
Speaker 2: young man who's in the Marine Corps. He's in basic
Speaker 2: training down in San Diego, and he was in basic
Speaker 2: training when this murder happened. But he's his parents that
Speaker 2: he's coming home like in two days. His BASIC's over
Speaker 2: with now, I'll bring him in for an interview. So
Speaker 2: they do, and they bring him in for an interview
Speaker 2: and he start talking about this knife. He goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I remember that knife. And he starts telling him why
Speaker 2: he bought it and everything, and yeah, I asked my
Speaker 2: name in that. And he goes, where's what happened to
Speaker 2: the knife? He goes, well, I sold it to my
Speaker 2: friend so and so, you know, And they go where's
Speaker 2: he at and he goes, well, he's somewhere and he
Speaker 2: goes but I know he doesn't have it anymore because
Speaker 2: he gave it to this other kid. And they go,
Speaker 2: how do you know that? He told me he gave
Speaker 2: it to this other kid. And who's this kid. It's
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old boy that he gave the knife.
Speaker 2: So they go to this kid's school, Brett pull him
Speaker 2: out of class, start interviewing him and he says, yeah,
Speaker 2: I had that knife, and he goes, yeah, I used it,
Speaker 2: and he goes, I was. He lived in a trailer
Speaker 2: park in Lenton, right along Lake Washington. It's kind of
Speaker 2: rock because it was like a single wide trailer park
Speaker 2: back then, but a million dollar condos at that site
Speaker 2: right now. But he he said, we I was. I
Speaker 2: was out and my buddy. I was with my buddy
Speaker 2: in his truck and I got out and I forgot
Speaker 2: the knife in his truck. And they go, well, who's
Speaker 2: your buddy. He goes, Gary Grant, He lives in the
Speaker 2: He lives in the same trailer court as me. So
Speaker 2: they start looking into Gary Grant and he goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I asked Gary to give me the knife back,
Speaker 2: but he said his dad found it in the truck
Speaker 2: and put it in his bedroom. And Gary says, I
Speaker 2: can't go in his bedroom and get it. So they
Speaker 2: started waking into this Grant guy. They find out that
Speaker 2: his dad, Glenn Grant, was at one time a Pearce
Speaker 2: County sheriff, which is a county down by Tacoma. But
Speaker 2: then now he's working as a private security guard, like
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood patrol thing. And they start thinking, you know, well,
Speaker 2: first of all, they were suspicious of John Chance. They
Speaker 2: weren't convincing John Chance really did it. These detectives they said,
Speaker 2: you know, he would just say anything you wanted them
Speaker 2: to say. So that's why they kept seeing it. To
Speaker 2: their credit, they didn't stop because they thought they had
Speaker 2: a guy. They kept investigating. And so they they're thinking
Speaker 2: that the dad, because he's a Residents of security guard,
Speaker 2: he has a car. He said, this kid's probably would
Speaker 2: get would get in the car with him, thinking he's
Speaker 2: a policeman. So let's go talk to him. So they
Speaker 2: go to the trailer they live in and they're talking
Speaker 2: to the dad and the mom is there and Gerry
Speaker 2: isn't there, and they start talking and asking about the knife,
Speaker 2: and Glenn Gran says, I don't think about a knife.
Speaker 2: He said he didn't find a knife in your truck.
Speaker 2: He goes, no, I didn't find a knife on my truck.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it a knife. So as
Speaker 2: they're topping, Gary pulls up the frug. No, here's Gary.
Speaker 2: So one of the detectives, Jim Paln, he says, got
Speaker 2: the sergeant, let me go ahead and talk to him.
Speaker 2: So he goes out there and he goes, hey, hey, Gary,
Speaker 2: are you doing and renting police? And he says, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're we're just talking your dad in there. Won't you
Speaker 2: stay out here with me? Won't you have a seat
Speaker 2: in my car? So Garry says okay, and he goes
Speaker 2: to get in the car, and when Jim sees him
Speaker 2: get in the car, the bottom of his shoe is
Speaker 2: exposed and he is that's the same shoe print I
Speaker 2: saw at the murder victims. I mean that matches the pattern.
Speaker 2: So he goes in and he gets Wally Hume, the
Speaker 2: other detector says, we got to get out of here,
Speaker 2: and he goes on, let's go, let's go, And long
Speaker 2: story short, then they get him in the car and
Speaker 2: they take Gary down to rent to the police forever,
Speaker 2: and you know they're they're talking to him and They say, Gary,
Speaker 2: do you mind if we look at your shoes? And no,
Speaker 2: he gives them the shoes, and then Shaln goes out
Speaker 2: and goes to the guy that has the evidence to
Speaker 2: be that plaster cast, you know, And so they get
Speaker 2: the flaster cast and they look and the shoe is
Speaker 2: the exact same pattern. That doesn't mean, of course, that
Speaker 2: it's the same shoe, because thousands of those shoes are sold, right,
Speaker 2: But it is interesting there are no individual traits. Go ahead,
Speaker 2: you have a question.
Speaker 5: You also talk about that this conversation, this confession, is
Speaker 5: being recorded the whole time, but unbeknownst to these detectives,
Speaker 5: I believe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that actually happened a little later. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: happened a little later, because first of all, they have
Speaker 2: to take him down. He hasn't confessed anything yet, but
Speaker 2: he will soon. They decide they want to put him
Speaker 2: on a polygraph machine. Okay, so they didn't have rent,
Speaker 2: they didn't have their own polygraph so they had to
Speaker 2: take them to Seattle to the Seattle Police polygraph unit.
Speaker 2: And the guy that was the polygraph operator, his name
Speaker 2: was Dewey Gillespie. You know, by the time they get downtown,
Speaker 2: are going to come downtown. It's like four thirty in
Speaker 2: the afternoon, and they show up there and they go,
Speaker 2: he's gone. He's gone for the day. And so one
Speaker 2: of the other people there says, we can get hold
Speaker 2: of him, and they said, why don't you guys go
Speaker 2: on out and give him something to e because Gary
Speaker 2: was acting really nervous. So they took him to a
Speaker 2: Jack in the box or something and they got him
Speaker 2: a hamburger and they chit chatted and talked about every
Speaker 2: in the world, nothing new with the murders, and they're
Speaker 2: finally a six point thirty or seven o'clock they're back
Speaker 2: in the Seattle Police headquarters building and the Gillespie They
Speaker 2: introduced him to Gillespie and Gilessie takes him in the
Speaker 2: office and he starts talking to him about the polygraph
Speaker 2: and when you have a polygrop test, there's always what's
Speaker 2: called the pre interview, and where the operator asks a
Speaker 2: bunch of questions of the person they're going to examine,
Speaker 2: where they're not hooked up to the machine, and they're
Speaker 2: in the process of this free interview when Gary just
Speaker 2: starts crying and a minute later he opens the door
Speaker 2: and walks out their detectives and he says, Gary just
Speaker 2: contested me. He killed those two boys. They said, oh
Speaker 2: my god, you know, so they know. They brought him
Speaker 2: out and they're talking to him again and he gives
Speaker 2: a complete confession everything. He describes what he did. He deny.
Speaker 2: He goes, Okay, I can't believe I did this. I
Speaker 2: like little boys. I like kids. He denies ever sexually
Speaker 2: attaching them, which you know is not true, but he
Speaker 2: denies it. Anyway, they go through this whole thing. By
Speaker 2: this time, it's like ten thirty at night, and then
Speaker 2: Gillespie comes out. He says, let me talk to him again.
Speaker 2: So they put Gary back.
Speaker 3: In the room.
Speaker 2: They closed the door, and Gillespie just says to him,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of a girl by the river, and Gary says,
Speaker 2: did she have long dark hair? Was she stabbed? A
Speaker 2: minute later he opens the door and he says, oh,
Speaker 2: that guy. In the middle of the conversation, he switches
Speaker 2: she had reddish hair. It wasn't a bob blah blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And a minute later Gillespie opens the
Speaker 2: door and he tells him he just confessed to killing
Speaker 2: care Alriksa and Joanne Zulaf and now they can't believe it,
Speaker 2: you know, they're like, oh my god. So they put
Speaker 2: him in a they started carrying what about eric'son, get
Speaker 2: that whole story. They call the county because the ulav
Speaker 2: Gates is the King County case, and they get one
Speaker 2: of the sergeants up on his way up there. You know.
Speaker 2: So they end up talking, and they did a good
Speaker 2: job of interrogating because you know, he Gary would hold
Speaker 2: back the information and they would not give him the information.
Speaker 2: They made him say it, and he would say claim
Speaker 2: he didn't remember this or didn't remember that, but he
Speaker 2: did and he eventually you know, that's the key. You
Speaker 2: can't just say did you do this? And do this
Speaker 2: now they go go, yeah, did you do this? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's how false confession happens. You got to let him
Speaker 2: tell you the facts, right you don't you don't. You
Speaker 2: don't just sit there and let him Regurgerie tate to
Speaker 2: you what you're saying. So then they did a good
Speaker 2: job because he tried to have them do that. I
Speaker 2: don't he wasn't trying as a tactic. He that was
Speaker 2: just his He didn't want to talk about it that much.
Speaker 2: But he but they got him to say the things
Speaker 2: they needed to say. And then so then they have
Speaker 2: this issue. They put him, they send him back, set
Speaker 2: him to rent, and put him in the rent and
Speaker 2: city jail overnight because they already got a guy charged
Speaker 2: with the murder, so they hold him as a material
Speaker 2: witness to murder at first, right, And so that's what
Speaker 2: they do. They put him in jail, and that's when
Speaker 2: he gets a lawyer, and that's when all the other
Speaker 2: stuff happened.
Speaker 5: So this is when the so tell us about the
Speaker 5: recording devices and who this is the initiative of who.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's the captain of the detectives. The name
Speaker 2: was Bill Frazy. He unbeknownst to anybody at all, not
Speaker 2: these detectives. Only he knew. He had wired a room
Speaker 2: for recording and recorded everything that happened in there. And
Speaker 2: I don't know why he did it, oh what he thought,
Speaker 2: but he did and he didn't. And then in Washington,
Speaker 2: you can't do that. First of all, you have to
Speaker 2: have it two paid, Both people have to be aware
Speaker 2: they're being recorded unless you have a court order. And
Speaker 2: so he did this and it's bad enough as far
Speaker 2: as you know. The detectives talking to the people in
Speaker 2: the room. But Gary Grant was talking to his attorney
Speaker 2: in this room and their conversation was recorded, and is
Speaker 2: there a later Dn Chance had also been talking to
Speaker 2: his attorney in the room and his conversation they've been recorded,
Speaker 2: which is absolutely unbelievable because that jeopardizes the entire case,
Speaker 2: the whole case, the guy, the whole case. He goes
Speaker 2: off and Serika could walk out the door because of
Speaker 2: that mistake. And so that was that was the first
Speaker 2: part of the mess. And you know when that came out.
Speaker 2: First of all, they had a guy in jail charged
Speaker 2: who wasn't the killer. That was the first thing. And
Speaker 2: then second of all, they got at these recordings and
Speaker 2: so that you know, set the prosecutor's office and into
Speaker 2: uh damage control mode, and they were spending around and
Speaker 2: first thing they did is insulted the prosecutor's office completely
Speaker 2: from any of the recordings. They didn't want any of
Speaker 2: those recordings heard by anybody in their office, which was
Speaker 2: the smart thing to do. And they actually brought in
Speaker 2: a special special prosecutor from the Attorney General's office to
Speaker 2: deal with the recording and they actually charged the Winton
Speaker 2: captain with unlawful wiretapping.
Speaker 5: Right, so what what eventually or soon after is announced
Speaker 5: regarding the charges against Chance.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so they have a big press release and
Speaker 2: they say we're the smith in the case against John
Speaker 2: Chance and releasing him. They smissed, we know with prejudice
Speaker 2: means he could never be charged again. But yeah, we're
Speaker 2: dropping all the charges against John Chance. We're charging this
Speaker 2: renting captain with unlawful wiretapping or wiretapping ordinances. And then
Speaker 2: they announced the arrest of the charge of Gary Grant
Speaker 2: for the four murders that that happened, and so everybody
Speaker 2: it was it was a it was a minefield. Like
Speaker 2: I said, then they had to deal with in court
Speaker 2: in the pre trial how to get around this recorded conversation.
Speaker 2: And that was a big you know, that was a big,
Speaker 2: big issue. And matter of fact, after the elected prosecutor,
Speaker 2: Chris Bailey just I just couldn't want when I talked
Speaker 2: to him deeporaneous now he said, I couldn't believe that
Speaker 2: a police commander would do that, would not know that
Speaker 2: you can't do that. You know we have when I
Speaker 2: was yeat, we have interrogation weeps that would recorded right
Speaker 2: and there, and you tell the person you're being recorded.
Speaker 2: But if a lawyer comes in there, we switched the
Speaker 2: recording off while the lawyer's talking. Once a lawyer's out,
Speaker 2: we switch it back on. Because you cannot record a
Speaker 2: private conversation with cred, a defendant his attorney. It's absolutely
Speaker 2: that is a you know, terrible thing.
Speaker 5: It seemed like too. You had the two detectives from
Speaker 5: Renton and you had you had the chief deputy prosecutor
Speaker 5: in a car and he just overheard them talking about
Speaker 5: a conversation that they must have turned them out. Yeah,
Speaker 5: so the police chief and the two detectives were oblivious
Speaker 5: that this was wrong.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's exactly. They didn't know you couldn't do that. Apparently, again,
Speaker 2: this is a small agency with not a lot of
Speaker 2: you know, mostly most of the stuff they handled with
Speaker 2: routine stuff, you know, teenagers getting a little out of control.
Speaker 2: I mean, the detectives probably handled a lot of burglaries
Speaker 2: or deaths, and you know, they didn't never have it,
Speaker 2: never handled anything on this level. So I mean it
Speaker 2: was this was the career case for them, There's no
Speaker 2: doubt about it. But they learned, you know, and it
Speaker 2: was it. They you know, they they the case was risk,
Speaker 2: the whole case was at risk. Unfortunately it didn't end
Speaker 2: up going away.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. You talk about you write about May seventeenth
Speaker 5: and Grant's first psychological evaluation is is doctor George Harris
Speaker 5: a four hour session? What did they what did they
Speaker 5: get from that about his background and just about motivation
Speaker 5: for these crimes and what was his uh end deduction
Speaker 5: in terms for the courts?
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, he went through he went through four psychologically valved.
Speaker 2: But he said, you talk about the one with Harris,
Speaker 2: He said, struck. Yeah. Well, basically Grant described his home life,
Speaker 2: which was he said, was very terrible. His mother had
Speaker 2: a real drinking problem, and he said, and other people
Speaker 2: confirmed it. And when he drank, he drank. H'm sorry.
Speaker 2: She would become very violent, and she and his father,
Speaker 2: Glen Grant would get these big fights and and he
Speaker 2: would the mother would throw things across the room, and
Speaker 2: his father basically would leave for weeks at a time,
Speaker 2: and he, you know, he talked about how they would
Speaker 2: be you know, he couldn't handle it, and he he
Speaker 2: went to he would Grant had gone into the military
Speaker 2: and he got kicked out in basic training, and he
Speaker 2: said he planned because there was a landing officer there.
Speaker 2: It was cruel to a Medelva stuff. But they said
Speaker 2: he sent him home because he was a mama's boy
Speaker 2: and he couldn't handle it anyway. So basically they went
Speaker 2: through this full time. You know, they talked about Glenn's
Speaker 2: but the kids and why he would do this. You
Speaker 2: know what, what what did he do? Did? He didn't
Speaker 2: have any suicidal intent, he was he remembered what he
Speaker 2: said when the word he described when talk about the murders,
Speaker 2: he would say, when I closed my eyes, I can
Speaker 2: see the victims. I can see the boys, and I
Speaker 2: can see it like I can't wear a camera. Matter
Speaker 2: of fact, that's what I wanted to name the book,
Speaker 2: when I closed my eyes, because that was such a
Speaker 2: I thought that was a pretty powerful thing. I can't
Speaker 2: I don't specifically remember doing it, but when I closed
Speaker 2: my eyes, I can see all these things happening. And
Speaker 2: he described that he did that with a lot, with
Speaker 2: more than one psychologist. So and then you know, he
Speaker 2: was you know, he said he liked kids. He can't
Speaker 2: believe he would hurt the kids. But the doctor said,
Speaker 2: you know, he's obviously got issues, but they thought he
Speaker 2: was he was able to stand droughts. Three of the
Speaker 2: four doctors said he was he was eligible to stand
Speaker 2: trial and could assistant defense. One did not once thought
Speaker 2: he could not.
Speaker 5: It was interesting too in this we didn't mention this,
Speaker 5: but at the second crime scene with Juanne Zuloff, this
Speaker 5: crime scene was a little bit different than and that
Speaker 5: there was a couple of things missing in terms of
Speaker 5: jewel then and then it's interesting interesting to find out
Speaker 5: what happened to that piece of jewelry.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, so yeah, he uh, she was missing a
Speaker 2: watch and I forgot what else. It's something else he's missing.
Speaker 2: But anyway, hearing she was missing a watch, yeah, near ring,
Speaker 2: that's right, and so what you know, it's not uncommon
Speaker 2: for sir killers to take trophies, but but they But
Speaker 2: Gary was with a He hung out with this group
Speaker 2: of people and he was kind of an odd duck,
Speaker 2: but he ended up there was a guy who was
Speaker 2: kind of the popular guy in school that everybody liked,
Speaker 2: named Frank, and he hung out with Frank, and Frank
Speaker 2: that took him under his wing and helped him and
Speaker 2: he had they were at parties all the time, and
Speaker 2: he had he had a girlfriend, and he kept telling
Speaker 2: his girlfriend all the things he did, and she goes,
Speaker 2: but you never have any money. You don't get paid
Speaker 2: for all this stuff. And one time they we at
Speaker 2: a party and he and he hands his girlfriend a
Speaker 2: watch and he says, see, I do get paid for
Speaker 2: what I do, and he gave her a watch ended
Speaker 2: up being Joanne Zulov's watch. So which again is not
Speaker 2: uncommon for killers to give trophies to other women or
Speaker 2: things like that, but he did that. And you know,
Speaker 2: you can tie a couple of things like uh. When
Speaker 2: they talked to this guy, Frank, he said he had
Speaker 2: you know, I talked about his relationship with Kerry, who's
Speaker 2: no Gary. I just kind of felt sorry for him,
Speaker 2: and he was a friend and I hung out with him.
Speaker 2: And he says, one time, there's only one time we
Speaker 2: ever got in a fight. One time we got in
Speaker 2: an argument. I mean we got in this big, yelling argument,
Speaker 2: you know, and I could tell he was heard. So
Speaker 2: I told him I was sorry, and we were and
Speaker 2: we made up over the you know, over that night.
Speaker 2: It was fine by the end of the night, but
Speaker 2: that was ended up being the night before he killed
Speaker 2: those Lio little boys, so that's a stressor in his life,
Speaker 2: you know. And another time he said he was he
Speaker 2: was he got in another a fight with his parents
Speaker 2: and left. Was just before he killed Johann Zulov. So
Speaker 2: if you look at least he says this stress So
Speaker 2: now you're just this is all taking his word at that. Well,
Speaker 2: the other one was Frank was Frank's word, So that's
Speaker 2: probably true, but you know it's ironically. The day I
Speaker 2: got an email the day this book published, and it
Speaker 2: was an incredible email. The first day came out, a
Speaker 2: lady emailed me. She said, I was I always wondered
Speaker 2: if anybody knew what happened to Gary Grant, So I
Speaker 2: googled Gary's name and I saw you wrote a book
Speaker 2: about it, and it's coming out. She says, I knew
Speaker 2: Gary when I was in school, since we would go.
Speaker 2: One time we all went up to Crystal Mountain, which
Speaker 2: is a skiing resort near here, because they had a
Speaker 2: Korean Korean exchange student. He had never seen snow, so
Speaker 2: they took her up there and Gary was up there
Speaker 2: with him, and she said, I sat next to Gary
Speaker 2: and I just got the creeps. I didn't really know him,
Speaker 2: but I got the creeps. I more knew the other people,
Speaker 2: and every time he talked to me, he was just weird.
Speaker 2: And then I found out later that it was a
Speaker 2: serial killer, and it just it just freaks me out.
Speaker 2: And it was just ironic that she just happens to
Speaker 2: the day before this book is being published and run
Speaker 2: this name because all these years she never knew. But
Speaker 2: that's what everybody said. He was an odd duck, you know,
Speaker 2: he was like an odd man out. You know, he
Speaker 2: kind of kept to himself. If he told the joke,
Speaker 2: he would look at Frank, and if Frank laughed, he
Speaker 2: would laugh. But if Frank didn't, he wouldn't laugh. So
Speaker 2: he was just kind of a kind of a little
Speaker 2: wounded puppy dog. Although you know, if you look at
Speaker 2: this picture, he's a strapping, good looking young man. You know,
Speaker 2: he had like he could have been a movie star looks.
Speaker 2: You know, he doesn't anymore. I'll tell you that I
Speaker 2: saw his picture in prison. But he did. Man, he
Speaker 2: was he had a lot of a lot of hope.
Speaker 2: One for him a different you know, obviously psychological issues.
Speaker 5: Yeah, tell us about the trial, and it's interesting too.
Speaker 5: As you talk about a friend. Edmund Allen j was
Speaker 5: six six years old at the time, but his father
Speaker 5: was prosecuting was helped prosecuting his case. So Edmond Allen,
Speaker 5: his father was part of the prosecution team. What did
Speaker 5: they try to do.
Speaker 2: What was the.
Speaker 5: Strategy that they had and maybe only had in terms
Speaker 5: of trying to defend Gary Grant?
Speaker 2: The defense, well, the defense is only issue because they
Speaker 2: were the state sought the death penalty, right, so the
Speaker 2: defense's only job because there was no way they're going
Speaker 2: to get him off, although they tried, of course, but
Speaker 2: there's no way they're going to get him off. So
Speaker 2: their only thing is to save his lives. And so
Speaker 2: they went through the thing and tried to paint him
Speaker 2: as as sympathetic to the jury as they possibly could,
Speaker 2: you know, because he'd done these terrible you know, kill
Speaker 2: these little boys and then the two girls that were
Speaker 2: just young teenagers and you know, it's horrendous crime. But
Speaker 2: then you got to get this and they put him
Speaker 2: on the stand himself. Apparently he just uh want to
Speaker 2: press here, told me he got up there and he
Speaker 2: just kind of was in a trance. As a matter
Speaker 2: of fact, his testimony was so strange that the state
Speaker 2: did not even cross him. They didn't steel they needed
Speaker 2: to because they had they'd given it all up. And
Speaker 2: the other thing that was odd about the trial was
Speaker 2: the defense, who fought so hard to have this case
Speaker 2: dismissed because of the recording with his previous attorney, actually
Speaker 2: played that recording in the trial in front of the jury.
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure what they were thinking with that,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but in the end, you know, they did.
Speaker 2: He was found quickly, found guilty. Then he was he
Speaker 2: did not perceive the death that lead. So then the
Speaker 2: other and only other issue becomes how much time he served,
Speaker 2: because under the sensing laws that back then, he could
Speaker 2: have gotten like eight or nine years and then released
Speaker 2: because you know, if they gave him life, because they
Speaker 2: could run him consecutively. But again, yeah, there's a way.
Speaker 2: I talked to the judge in this case, there was
Speaker 2: no way they were going to do that. So he
Speaker 2: ended up getting you know, four life sentences, and you know,
Speaker 2: the minimum we could do was like one hundred years
Speaker 2: or something, and and so yeah, it all worked on
Speaker 2: the end, but they tried real hard. I mean, it
Speaker 2: couldn't easily. You know, if if it's been a little
Speaker 2: bit different system, a little judge, you're gonna let this
Speaker 2: guy walk. And you know, you know one thing about
Speaker 2: this guy is he's gonna kill again if he gets out.
Speaker 2: There's no question about it. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And and the thing is, you were you were, you
Speaker 5: were right that there was a chance that the judge
Speaker 5: could have sentenced him to a concurrent sentence, which would
Speaker 5: have meant that it would have acted like just one
Speaker 5: sentence and out of that potentially, so right, I know.
Speaker 2: And the numbers were much lower than they are now.
Speaker 2: You know, now in Washington State, if you can be
Speaker 2: a violent crowding and felling, you have to do eighty
Speaker 2: five percent of the crime become to get fifteen percent
Speaker 2: off of good time. But it was that it was
Speaker 2: like fifty percent back then, you know. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: it could have been a much lower sentence.
Speaker 5: Yeah, effectively, Yeah, you talk about you talk about him
Speaker 5: in prison in Walla, Walla, Washington.
Speaker 2: What was this?
Speaker 5: What was his fate once there? You you talk about
Speaker 5: an author that he corresponded with for four years.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, who just stumbled upilom herself, you know. And
Speaker 2: uh and so yeah, I got her book because I
Speaker 2: heard about it. I got her book and I read
Speaker 2: the things that I sited. Her thing is that we
Speaker 2: have mutual friends. I've never met this author, but we
Speaker 2: know I know people who know her well. But and yeah,
Speaker 2: he he talked, he and he intimated that his mother
Speaker 2: had sexually molested him at some point. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think she may have it. I mean, there's no question,
Speaker 2: there is no question this guy had a terrible childhood, right,
Speaker 2: But a lot of people have childhood and don't go
Speaker 2: on killing people in their lives. But yeah, and he
Speaker 2: had a lot of issues. And actually I just found
Speaker 2: out he's been transferred to Monroe, which is over on
Speaker 2: the Walla. Walla is the way on the other side
Speaker 2: of the mountains, and Monroe is closer to this. He
Speaker 2: got transferred their recently. But that's where he is right now,
Speaker 2: because the movie is around after a while a bit,
Speaker 2: he's fifty years and you know, fifty years since he
Speaker 2: did the murder, and he's fifty one now almost.
Speaker 5: So still it seems seemed pretty disingenuous the some of
Speaker 5: the claims that he had in those letters claim to
Speaker 5: not remember crimes, also claim to not of rape people
Speaker 5: that were proven to be rape.
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, don't take too much. Yeah, right exactly.
Speaker 2: And you know I have friends that are criminologists taught
Speaker 2: that top do these things where they exchange things with
Speaker 2: serial killers. One of the one of the prists doing
Speaker 2: with Manson and kenn Bianki and all these guys, and
Speaker 2: they all want to, you know, give make themselves look
Speaker 2: better than they are and deny things and because you know,
Speaker 2: they want things from you talking to them, and so
Speaker 2: you've got to take it with a grain of salt.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not just saying there's not some some
Speaker 2: intellectual value in it, but you have to take everything
Speaker 2: with the grain of salt.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I want to thank you very much Cloyd for
Speaker 5: coming on and talking about your book, Seattle's Forgotten serial
Speaker 5: Killer Gary gen Grant has been fascinating for those of
Speaker 5: people might want to check out this book. Or do
Speaker 5: you have a Facebook page, Amazon page? Tell us about
Speaker 5: how people might take this work.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not it. I do have an Amazon page,
Speaker 2: I have a Facebook page, and I have my own
Speaker 2: website cloud stagger dot com c L O Y D
Speaker 2: S D E I G E R dot com. It's
Speaker 2: also available in some books, so it's probably just in
Speaker 2: this region though, but it's in bookstores here. But I
Speaker 2: don't know about other places. But you can get on
Speaker 2: Amazon and or Target or you know, everybody pretty much
Speaker 2: anywhere that sells books sells it.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Thank you very much, Cloyd. It's been a pleasure
Speaker 5: of Seattle's forgotten serial killer, Gary gen Grant. Thank you
Speaker 5: very much. You have a great evening, you too, Thanks Dan,
Speaker 5: thank you, good night, good night.