Speaker 1: Paris twenty twenty four Olympics opening ceremonies sparks significant controversy,
Speaker 1: with some viewer's mistake of performance inspired by Greek mythology
Speaker 1: for a parody of the Last Supper. This artistic homage
Speaker 1: to the ancient origin of the Olympics feature drag queens
Speaker 1: and other historical figures, aiming to celebrate the cultural and
Speaker 1: religious diversity intertwined with the game's history. Despite the creators
Speaker 1: intent to honor the gods of Mount Olympus, many Christians
Speaker 1: perceive the display as offensive and disrespectful to their faith
Speaker 1: and their God, because, after all, everything must be all
Speaker 1: about them. Many Christians felt that the ceremonies artistic choices
Speaker 1: marked their religious beliefs and demonstrated a disregard for the
Speaker 1: supposed sanctity of Christian traditions. This class highlights the often
Speaker 1: overlooked pagan influences within Christianity and the tension between traditional
Speaker 1: belief and marginal interpretations. Now I know that everybody has
Speaker 1: seen it. People have talked about it being cultural rot.
Speaker 1: When they refer to cultural rot, what do you really
Speaker 1: think that they're referring to? What are they talking about
Speaker 1: cultural rot?
Speaker 2: When they say, there's a quote from the article that
Speaker 2: says many internationally known political figures, particularly from America, condemned
Speaker 2: the display as a sign of cultural rot in Western civilization.
Speaker 2: And it says, idea that not being a Christian or
Speaker 2: not accepting Christianity is somehow like a step backwards or
Speaker 2: like a decline in civilist, civilist civilization. And it's it's
Speaker 2: it's it's maddening. There were there were there was another time,
Speaker 2: a little under one hundred years ago where in a
Speaker 2: particular place, people of a particular religious persuasion were you know,
Speaker 2: accused of being the cause of decline of civilization. And
Speaker 2: that didn't that that we I mean, those of us
Speaker 2: that accept you know, history as reality know what happened then,
Speaker 2: and it was it was a pretty terrible thing. So
Speaker 2: the the end of that not having a specific religious
Speaker 2: belief is cultural raw is not only silly to me,
Speaker 2: but I find it dangerous. And it's it's not the
Speaker 2: first time something like this has happened. You know, of course,
Speaker 2: with Christian nationalism and the push to get Christianity into schools.
Speaker 2: This is just this is just another example of the
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 1: Sendy, do you think that they may have a point
Speaker 1: and the fact that do you think it likely that
Speaker 1: when da Vinci and I know you don't speak for
Speaker 1: Leonardo or any of his family, but do you think
Speaker 1: that perhaps his another Greek mythology could have helped influence
Speaker 1: how da Vinci made the last separate painting in the
Speaker 1: first place. I mean, isn't it likely that he borrowed
Speaker 1: and took things from previous gods? Because we know that
Speaker 1: the scriptures did well? What do you think about that?
Speaker 1: How well do you think Christians really know their Bible
Speaker 1: when it comes down to what they think happened at
Speaker 1: this point or how it looked, or who it seemed
Speaker 1: like did it what do you think?
Speaker 3: Well, first, I think that what they disliked the most
Speaker 3: was not that it was but depiction of Christianity. But
Speaker 3: I think what bothers them the most is that we
Speaker 3: don't see Christianity as virtuous anymore as worthy of deference.
Speaker 3: I think that's that's what they dislike the most in this.
Speaker 3: But no, we know that pretty much the entire Bible
Speaker 3: is copied from or derived from other religions. We know
Speaker 3: that some of the Old Testament is sometimes textbook copy
Speaker 3: from the Peak of Gilgamesh. We know that many gods
Speaker 3: or many characters in the Bible are inspired by previews characters.
Speaker 3: We know that uh uh. The Yahweh character in the
Speaker 3: Bible is at first it was a minor god in
Speaker 3: in in their religion, but then uh uh, it was
Speaker 3: then like promoted. I don't know, maybe it did something good,
Speaker 3: uh and and got promoted. But yeah, I don't think
Speaker 3: that painting in the first place is accurate. I think
Speaker 3: it's it's it's just like like the chapel and and
Speaker 3: the and the painting on on the on the roof.
Speaker 3: It's just it's just art, and art is never meant
Speaker 3: to be taken literally like the evangelic evangelists in the
Speaker 3: US take the Bible right now. It's it's just not
Speaker 3: art is just uh, imagination.
Speaker 1: Yes, I would have to agree, now, Eili, I've got
Speaker 1: to say that. I know there's been a pushback. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know if you saw anything about that
Speaker 1: about different people talking about how first you know it's
Speaker 1: not the Last Supper, which it isn't, and then talking
Speaker 1: about how and I thought this telling it. I was
Speaker 1: just kind of wonder what you thought about this, He
Speaker 1: wrote on next says, I don't think we Christians realize
Speaker 1: how fragile we make our faith look when we act
Speaker 1: as though something like this artistic expression represents an existential
Speaker 1: threat to us. We have allowed feared superstition to overtake
Speaker 1: our public witness rather than love or understanding. Now I
Speaker 1: don't know this person, and we probably agree on many
Speaker 1: more things than we disagree, but I do say that
Speaker 1: if nothing else, so, if you're trying to look for
Speaker 1: a position of authority, I think that this is definitely
Speaker 1: the wrong way. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that I hadn't seen that, but
Speaker 2: I think that person put it very well. If something
Speaker 2: like this is an existential threat to your beliefs, then
Speaker 2: there's something you need to re examine about why the
Speaker 2: beliefs are that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Almost don't want to use the word fragile, but I do,
Speaker 2: so I will. And there was some of the like
Speaker 2: quotes of some of that they tweeted from the art
Speaker 2: or some of the tweets that they quoted in the
Speaker 2: article I wrote down to. There's one of them that says,
Speaker 2: like this is extremely disrespectful to Christians, And I think
Speaker 2: that it's just not especially because like you know, has
Speaker 2: already been established. This is a fifteenth century you know,
Speaker 2: Italian painter or Italian painters like rendition of an image
Speaker 2: that was stolen by Christianity from another, you know, belief
Speaker 2: system that depicts a fictional scenario. So it's not disrespectful
Speaker 2: to anything. It's an image, like you said, but I
Speaker 2: noticed I had another thought when you said it a
Speaker 2: minute ago in Fidel that because it is honoring other gods.
Speaker 2: That is why they see it as offensive, because of
Speaker 2: their commandment to honor no other gods. And that's what
Speaker 2: it is. If they're honoring the Greek gods, which would
Speaker 2: make sense at the Olympics because that's where they started,
Speaker 2: and not the Christian God, then they're gonna say, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's not what you're supposed to do. And as
Speaker 2: you said earlier, Cindy, they are so convinced that they
Speaker 2: are right that it doesn't that the idea of including
Speaker 2: other belief systems doesn't matter. It doesn't occur to them
Speaker 2: that the ideas that like Muslims and Jews and Buddhists
Speaker 2: and Hindus and Norse Pagans and Wickans and you know whatever,
Speaker 2: like weird shit, like they're a part of the society
Speaker 2: and they have all they all have the same right
Speaker 2: to like be this happy little oops on this fucking
Speaker 2: rock that we're on and have this, you know, the
Speaker 2: same beliefs and celebrate them, and they just fail to
Speaker 2: accept that. Time after time.
Speaker 3: I would be more cynical and just say that, uh,
Speaker 3: it's just ignorance. It didn't occur to them that it
Speaker 3: couldn't be anything else than, uh, a depiction of Christianity.
Speaker 3: But maybe maybe I'm just too scenico. I don't know.
Speaker 2: You'll probably write on the money, honestly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think that they did miss it, and
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right, And that is a sad
Speaker 1: testament too, where we are and where people view themselves.
Speaker 1: You talk about this, you know, I'm the center of
Speaker 1: the movie that everybody's watching.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like that. But what I did
Speaker 1: find interesting is one of the quotes that I read said,
Speaker 1: this is crazy opening your event by replacing Jesus and
Speaker 1: the disciples at the Last Supper with men and drag
Speaker 1: There are two point four being Christians on earth, and
Speaker 1: apparently the Olympics wanted to declare Lowley to all of
Speaker 1: them right out of the gate in an all capital
Speaker 1: not welcome. And I sat and I thought about that,
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, well let me sit and ask
Speaker 1: you then, when I as not a Christian see just
Speaker 1: some imitation are a print of Leonardo da Vinci's Last Supper,
Speaker 1: should I recognize that this is a place at a
Speaker 1: I'm not welcome Because if me just having something that
Speaker 1: makes light of it in your opinion, or does something
Speaker 1: they you disagree with, is important enough that I'm telling
Speaker 1: you that you don't exist there, that doesn't make sense
Speaker 1: to me unless you're telling me the end versus true
Speaker 1: to me or anyone else who may not fit in
Speaker 1: whatever category that you're trying to sell yourself at. So, Sandya,
Speaker 1: did you have anything to add to this?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I think you're You're right. Uh, the I
Speaker 3: would say that the US Christians are the worst self
Speaker 3: centered cray babies I've ever seen. Anything you you say
Speaker 3: or do is an attack to them, Like some people
Speaker 3: saying I won't say Christmas anymore, Amerry Christmas anymore because
Speaker 3: I want to include everyone else that's an a Christmas.
Speaker 3: That's an attack on them, Like every everything is an
Speaker 3: attack against Christianity and and that's that's right, that's what
Speaker 3: what you just said. It's just they don't understand the
Speaker 3: difference between I want to, uh take care of everyone's
Speaker 3: ideas and different beliefs, and this specific belief that you
Speaker 3: have is equal to the others in my opinion, and
Speaker 3: that seems offensive to them. And that's why they feel threatened.
Speaker 3: Because if I say I'm an atheist and I see
Speaker 3: all of the religions on the same place, and I
Speaker 3: say that to someone who strongly believes that his religion
Speaker 3: is the only true religion and his God is the
Speaker 3: only true God, then yeah, he's going to to feel threatened.
Speaker 3: But it's not I'm just expressing what I think what
Speaker 3: I am, and it's not an attack on you. It's
Speaker 3: just it's terrifying how the evangelic movement has changed Christianity
Speaker 3: in the last say four years, to the point where
Speaker 3: everything seems to be an attack on them and they're
Speaker 3: incapable of thinking.
Speaker 1: Yes without a doubt. You know that that kind of
Speaker 1: goes into something else I was thinking about. You know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about before. I think he may have been
Speaker 1: on this episode we did it about butker the kicker
Speaker 1: for Kansas City, who would all women should stay at
Speaker 1: home and have babies and you know, if they think,
Speaker 1: you know, keep him in the kitchen. And I'm exaggerating,
Speaker 1: but not by much. One of the things that he
Speaker 1: commented on it was, you know, be not deceived. God
Speaker 1: is not mocked. And I won't bore you with the
Speaker 1: rest of the blah blah blah the magic spell verse.
Speaker 1: But then I've got to say God has a pretty
Speaker 1: good sense of humor if he won't be mocked, because
Speaker 1: if that was him, he did get a little bit,
Speaker 1: I'll give him that. I might be mad if it
Speaker 1: was me, but no, I'd probably laugh, Let's be honest.
Speaker 1: But you know, either way, God must have a serious
Speaker 1: thinse skins that he would be offended by something that's
Speaker 1: a half great up for a chimpanzee, that that puts
Speaker 1: on a certain outfit and does whatever. If they're the
Speaker 1: God that creates the universe and could do all this,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like me being concerned on what color,
Speaker 1: you know, blushing or but you know, with that in mind,
Speaker 1: eli uh, I think that were there any other quotes
Speaker 1: or is there anything else you wanted to run by?
Speaker 2: Well, no, Cindy, you were mentioning how they take all
Speaker 2: of this, And this is a phenomenon I've noticed not
Speaker 2: just in Christians in America, but like just people in general.
Speaker 2: And I've noticed this a lot recently then I just
Speaker 2: haven't had an excuse to talk about it on the show.
Speaker 2: So this was great that people tend to not understand
Speaker 2: what disrespect is. And so these claims that this is
Speaker 2: disrespectful to Christianity is where that is founded in just
Speaker 2: you know, respect isn't you know, treat me like I'm
Speaker 2: better than you, and it's not, you know, if I
Speaker 2: have consequences for my behavior, then there will be consequences.
Speaker 2: It's recognizing that you can't fucking control what other people do.
Speaker 2: You don't get to interfere with their lives, leave people
Speaker 2: alone that are leaving you alone, and mind your fucking business.
Speaker 2: And that's really just what respect is. And Christians, like narcissists,
Speaker 2: love to go on and on about how they're the
Speaker 2: victims and everything is being shoved down their throats and
Speaker 2: everything is being done to them, but any time, and
Speaker 2: how like being a Christian like puts a target on
Speaker 2: your back because they think they're still living in the
Speaker 2: acts of the Apostles, which probably didn't happen like historically speaking.
Speaker 2: So every single time we hear about somebody you know
Speaker 2: saying somebody claiming offense or or you know, forcing their
Speaker 2: belief system into the public arena, it's religious people. It's Christians.
Speaker 2: Nobody is suing churches except for like the people that
Speaker 2: they've harmed over the years. Good, like that's what should happen.
Speaker 2: But it because once again it's Christians causing the harm.
Speaker 2: And I think this this whole idea of like this
Speaker 2: is disrespectful to Christians is really just rooted in that
Speaker 2: idea that you you you touch, you started a touch
Speaker 2: on Cindia. Is that people just don't understand it. It's
Speaker 2: not just Christians in America. I think it's it's at
Speaker 2: least people in America, I don't about the rest of
Speaker 2: the world, but just don't seem to understand the concept.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have to say that people also have
Speaker 1: this mindset that I have the right to say and
Speaker 1: think what I want to say and think, and if
Speaker 1: you don't agree with me, you're infringing on my right. No,
Speaker 1: you you have the right to say anything you want
Speaker 1: to say in my opinion. But it's when you turn
Speaker 1: around and you don't expect me to say, well, that
Speaker 1: was rather dumb, wasn't it. Don't be offended because then
Speaker 1: I'm more than willing to defend it's dumb. I'm not
Speaker 1: wanting people to go around calling people dumb. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, when you come up against bad things,
Speaker 1: people have to understand that people are going to respond
Speaker 1: to that. And Sandy, do you have something to say?
Speaker 3: Yes, three things. Regarding your thick skin comment, I would
Speaker 3: also say that how pathetically weak this god is that
Speaker 3: he needs all those people to defend him just by
Speaker 3: the depiction of something they think is is related to
Speaker 3: their religion. Regarding the respect issue, I think I agree
Speaker 3: with you Eli about what you said. I think it's
Speaker 3: a very good point. And I would also add that
Speaker 3: respect is also accepting that even if I think you're wrong,
Speaker 3: I think your opinion has merit and and I say
Speaker 3: that while also saying that bad ideas exist to be destroyed,
Speaker 3: that the minute you express something it it can be
Speaker 3: criticized and examined and cross referenced and and destroyed if necessary.
Speaker 3: But the issue about respect is that they they don't
Speaker 3: understand that bad ideas don't deserve respect. People do and
Speaker 3: and they don't understand the difference often, and so I
Speaker 3: think that's that's important to talk about this because you
Speaker 3: can respect people. You can not respect ideas, and that's
Speaker 3: perfectly fine. But also you can even if you don't
Speaker 3: respect an idea, you can respect the person because you
Speaker 3: think that they came to this idea for reason, they
Speaker 3: think they are good. And if you don't, then you
Speaker 3: don't respect the person on top of the idea. I
Speaker 3: don't know if I'm clear enough, but that's that's the
Speaker 3: point I was trying to make.
Speaker 1: That, and that's clear because that's that's ultimately what inclusion
Speaker 1: is going to have to force, and that is ideas
Speaker 1: that you don't care for don't like. Because if I
Speaker 1: say that you have a freedom to say whatever you
Speaker 1: want to say, as long as you say exactly what
Speaker 1: I want you to say, that's not freedom. Freedom has
Speaker 1: to allow a certain willingness to listen to things and
Speaker 1: understand things that may make you uncomfortable. Because here's the truth.
Speaker 1: It may never change your mind about what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but what it is capable of doing is making you
Speaker 1: rethink other things because not everything lives in a box
Speaker 1: because you take that knowledge and you understanding, you know what,
Speaker 1: they have a point about something else, though maybe completely unrelated.
Speaker 1: So it's always an opportunity to learn. So if you
Speaker 1: already conclude I've got the answer, I'm done. Shut the
Speaker 1: hell up. You've already shown your willingness to be wrong.
Speaker 1: You may not be wrong, but you're willing to be
Speaker 1: wrong because you're not willing to listen to anything someone
Speaker 1: has to say, even in an uncomfortable situation. Sorry here
Speaker 1: I am rambling on again. Eli another quick thought before
Speaker 1: I'll wrap it up.
Speaker 2: I would say I would just add I think a
Speaker 2: really good summary of that is that every idea is
Speaker 2: equally worthy of being destroyed. And I think, like that's
Speaker 2: a thought that I just now had while you were
Speaker 2: speaking to Minneo Cindy. But I think that's great. I
Speaker 2: think that's a good way to put it. I'll say
Speaker 2: you inspired that. The final thing is that it just
Speaker 2: seems like the whole, like the Olympic opening ceremonies seems
Speaker 2: like such a non issue to me, Like even if
Speaker 2: I gave a shit, I still wouldn't give a shit.
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't normally watch the Olympics, but if
Speaker 2: I did, it would be for the extremely impressive athleticism.
Speaker 2: You know, there are you know, some of the some
Speaker 2: some like absolute superhumans are in the Paris doing the
Speaker 2: most impressive feats, some of the most impressive feats of
Speaker 2: athleticism in the world right now in history and the
Speaker 2: biggest Like so many people are just focused on this,
Speaker 2: which just feels like a non issue, like it was.
Speaker 2: It was a performance at the beginning of something that
Speaker 2: has been happening for thousands of years or hundreds of years.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's that's kind of where I land on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I get that. I get that, the fact
Speaker 1: that there's so many other things going on, But the
Speaker 1: truth is there's so many things that really are relatively
Speaker 1: minor in the grand scheme of things. And Olympics openings, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, they have a certain level of memorability. They
Speaker 1: you know, they are a historical event a lot more
Speaker 1: than say a woman empty and hot water and tour
Speaker 1: or sink. So with those kinds of things in mind,
Speaker 1: you have to understand that when Christians show a level
Speaker 1: of intolerance, you never know where it could end up.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's one thing to me makes it
Speaker 1: important for us to remind everyone, Hey, Christians, you're not
Speaker 1: around every corner and every bend. It's really not all
Speaker 1: about you. Let's just let everybody be everybody