Speaker 1: You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best
Speaker 1: in paranormal talk radio in the UK and around the world.
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you
Speaker 1: happen to be in this particular timeline, Welcome to trans
Speaker 1: dimensional Realities, where we delve into the stranger aspect of
Speaker 1: our current reality. I'm your host, Melissa Lee, and I
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like in the rest of the country,
Speaker 1: but here in the Northeast, we've had two days of summer.
Speaker 1: It's eighty two degrees outside. We're not supposed to get
Speaker 1: this for another couple of months. Just two weeks ago
Speaker 1: we were down in the twenties and below. So mother
Speaker 1: Nature is certainly having a time. Makes me wonder what
Speaker 1: the rest of the summer of the spring actually is
Speaker 1: going to look like. So let's hope keep your fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: We don't suddenly get more snow. And I've seen snow
Speaker 1: fall in April, so I want to keep the nice
Speaker 1: weather anyway, Let's get into the program. Our guest today
Speaker 1: is doctor Adam Risby. Now Doctor Risby is a critical
Speaker 1: care physician and neurologist whose work bridges medicine and nondual Wisdom,
Speaker 1: author of Love does Not Know Death. He draws from
Speaker 1: years in the ICU and decades of contemplative study to
Speaker 1: show how forgiveness transforms fear into peace. He lives in California,
Speaker 1: where he teaches, writes, and co hosts the podcast Letters
Speaker 1: to the Sky. So please welcome doctor Adam Risby to
Speaker 1: the show. How are you, doctor Risbey?
Speaker 2: Hey, Melissa, it's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being here. I'm really fascinated to
Speaker 1: talk to you about, not only with your background working
Speaker 1: in the hospital as an emergency room position.
Speaker 2: I see you, I see you wait towards here, do
Speaker 2: the same thing more or less.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And then how you got to be writing
Speaker 1: this one book and that sets you down this path.
Speaker 1: So if you can tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: how that all started.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I you know, I was really interested in
Speaker 2: spirituality from the get go when I was young. I
Speaker 2: think that my mom and my dad sort of instilled
Speaker 2: in me a desire to get to the core truth
Speaker 2: of it all, why we're here, what we're doing here,
Speaker 2: and where we're headed, sort of the perennial questions, And
Speaker 2: that was actually so much a part of my life
Speaker 2: that right before the year before going into medical school,
Speaker 2: I was dead set on being a comparative religion and
Speaker 2: philosophy professor. I actually majored in that in college, and
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, this is what I want to do.
Speaker 2: I want to teach people how to embrace multiple traditions
Speaker 2: to find the truth within all. I really valued harmony
Speaker 2: and tolerance, something I think the world needs a lot
Speaker 2: more of these days. Yeah, and you know, my father
Speaker 2: was raised, he was he's he was Pakistani, passed away now,
Speaker 2: but he he had this like in many ways he
Speaker 2: was he was modern and progressive, but with his children.
Speaker 2: He wanted his children to either have either be a doctor,
Speaker 2: a lawyer, or an engineer. And and if you if
Speaker 2: you're a family from not the United States, you know
Speaker 2: that first gen children often you know the weight of
Speaker 2: your the future of the of the family is on
Speaker 2: your shoulders because you're often the first one to go
Speaker 2: to college and the first one to have higher level degrees.
Speaker 2: So the expectation was that I would do that, and
Speaker 2: he didn't quite like that. I wanted to be a professor.
Speaker 2: So I think his words were over my dead.
Speaker 1: Body, Okay, I think that goes a little bit beyond
Speaker 1: not liking But.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was a rebellious teenager or twenty something
Speaker 2: year old, and so I decided I would not go
Speaker 2: to medicine, which he wanted me to do, but instead
Speaker 2: be a barista at Starbucks.
Speaker 1: That's rebellious.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I did that for a year, and I'm grateful
Speaker 2: because it was my first real exposure to living in
Speaker 2: the real world, having to pay my bills, earning my keep,
Speaker 2: interacting with people, interacting with a manager, supervisor. And then
Speaker 2: I realized, like, oh, do I really want my life
Speaker 2: to be this? And it wasn't bad. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of people who make you know they're living like that.
Speaker 2: But I decided I want to go into medicine, and
Speaker 2: I went into medicine, and I became a doctor. But
Speaker 2: that part of me that strove for what is the
Speaker 2: truth underneath it all? What's what's the purpose? Why are we?
Speaker 2: What are we here to do before we die? That
Speaker 2: never left me.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a question a lot of us have,
Speaker 1: And I've been down my own spiritual path and doing
Speaker 1: a lot of research and trying to find out, you know,
Speaker 1: what is the purpose of being here? What is the
Speaker 1: purpose of this life. And I started off on a
Speaker 1: Christian path, but then in my twenties I broke off.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've been learning a lot since about
Speaker 1: a lot of different points of view. But I do
Speaker 1: definitely believe that there's something to this. We are here
Speaker 1: temporarily and we're here to learn, and I think that
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, love and forgiveness is
Speaker 1: something that definitely is on the agenda.
Speaker 2: It's not the syllabus, yes it is. Yeah, yeah, we're
Speaker 2: we're taking a course, for sure, And and I don't
Speaker 2: think people know what the syllabus is or what the
Speaker 2: course is about. But part of what your searching and
Speaker 2: my searching did was we just we discover one that yeah,
Speaker 2: we're taking a course, we're in a classroom, and we're
Speaker 2: here to learn something, and that there is there is
Speaker 2: somewhat of a syllabus, but it's not it's not explicit.
Speaker 2: You gotta hunt, You gotta hunt for it. You have
Speaker 2: to wake up to it and realize that that that is,
Speaker 2: in fact what's going on. That's the context. So you're
Speaker 2: so right about that, And.
Speaker 1: If you also look at a lot of your experiences
Speaker 1: in life, even the negative ones have lessons to teach you. You know,
Speaker 1: I can just say right now, everything that I've had
Speaker 1: happened in my life, and I've had a lot happen,
Speaker 1: especially the last few years. I've even though they just
Speaker 1: say it they sucked at the time, I am a
Speaker 1: better person for them. I've learned, I've grown, I've become
Speaker 1: more empathetic and feel like I'm more on the right
Speaker 1: path these days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a mentor of mine long ago once say,
Speaker 2: life isn't about preventing the fall, because you're going to fall.
Speaker 2: It's about learning to stand back up every single time
Speaker 2: and building that resilience. And part of standing back up
Speaker 2: for me is learning what that was all about, what
Speaker 2: the fall was all about. And then with that sort
Speaker 2: of resilient mindset, the growth mindset, I know I've become
Speaker 2: a better person. I become a kinder person, a more
Speaker 2: compassionate person. Oftentimes, especially after big mistake that I make,
Speaker 2: I become way more compassionate to other people who make
Speaker 2: mistakes because I know what it feels like.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, absolutely so. With your history working in the ICU,
Speaker 1: how long have you been doing that.
Speaker 2: Let's see, I finished Critical Care Fellowship in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: So I think I've been doing icy work if you
Speaker 2: count the years of fellowship, maybe for about ten.
Speaker 1: Years now, Okay, okay, and.
Speaker 2: I'm still kind of young in the whole journey of
Speaker 2: being a.
Speaker 1: Doctor, okay. And what prompted you to write your book
Speaker 1: Love Does Not Know Death?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, when I was in fellowship, it was my
Speaker 2: first time working day and day out in an ICU.
Speaker 2: I had done ICU work in residency and even in
Speaker 2: medical school, but this was pure critical care. This was
Speaker 2: the whole point of the fellowship was to get critical
Speaker 2: care down, and so being in the ICU, I ended
Speaker 2: up being present with death quite often. And I remember
Speaker 2: my first few deaths. They were so intense, emotionally charged,
Speaker 2: from dealing with the emotions of the family member to
Speaker 2: the patient themselves not wanting to die, but then dying anyway.
Speaker 2: I remember that there was one case early on. It
Speaker 2: was a woman who was going to get I think
Speaker 2: her gallbladder taken out or something, I forget, some abdominal surgery.
Speaker 2: And I was walking with her, lovely old lady, and
Speaker 2: she looked up at me and she had this look
Speaker 2: of doom in her eyes, like it's like abject terror,
Speaker 2: and she was holding my hands, say I'm going to die,
Speaker 2: I know it, and she just looked right at me
Speaker 2: with utter convey I know I'm going to die. I
Speaker 2: don't want to die. And she held my hand super tight,
Speaker 2: and me thinking, like, you know, you're just going for
Speaker 2: a small procedure. This happens every day. I told her,
Speaker 2: you're going to be fine. It's a simple procedure. You're
Speaker 2: going to be fine. She went into the procedure room
Speaker 2: and she never made it out. She had a heart
Speaker 2: attack on the table and she came out, and I
Speaker 2: was devastated. I thought. I looked at her in the
Speaker 2: eyes and I told her she was going to be fine.
Speaker 2: I wish I wish I had maybe helped her to
Speaker 2: embrace that possibility. I don't know. I really don't know
Speaker 2: if I could have said anything differently because of where
Speaker 2: she was at. But my first encounters with death were
Speaker 2: very rough. So what I wanted to do was I
Speaker 2: wanted to honor these patients. I wanted to honor her.
Speaker 2: I wanted to honor the surprise death that I mean.
Speaker 2: I guess she kind of knew it was happening. But
Speaker 2: so what I did is I started writing a journal
Speaker 2: and I called it my I still call it my
Speaker 2: death journal. And with every death that I was that
Speaker 2: was my criteria. If I was physically present in the
Speaker 2: moments leading up to or at their death, then I
Speaker 2: would write about the patient. I would write what led
Speaker 2: up to their death, everything that I did during the
Speaker 2: death to support them or otherwise, and then the lessons
Speaker 2: I learned that the insights that came to me, that
Speaker 2: just the raw emotion of the experience, and I would capture.
Speaker 2: And I would also use that journal entry as a
Speaker 2: means to pray for them. I would often write, like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm offering prayers to them, well wishes and
Speaker 2: in my own word and language, and I would I
Speaker 2: would often close the journal entry with just closing my
Speaker 2: eyes and connecting with the with the that person, with
Speaker 2: that soul, and giving them love. And oftentimes it would
Speaker 2: be a conversation in my head with them and letting
Speaker 2: them know that thanking them for being in my life
Speaker 2: when they came, and letting them know that they're free.
Speaker 2: They're free to go and and and do the next
Speaker 2: thing in their journey. And I have I now have
Speaker 2: well over five hundred journal entries in my death journal,
Speaker 2: and then I shared that with a group of friends
Speaker 2: of mine and they said, Adam, you got to just
Speaker 2: publish this. Publish your death journal so people know all
Speaker 2: the different ways that people die and and and what
Speaker 2: you learn, and that there's so much beauty that happens,
Speaker 2: and there's so much terror and anger and grief and
Speaker 2: anguish and liberation and release. So much happens in the
Speaker 2: moments before and after death that I thought, Okay, let me,
Speaker 2: let me capture this, and and then it it led
Speaker 2: to the book Love Does Not Know Death.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. With some of the cases that you talk about
Speaker 1: in the book, or maybe some of the others that
Speaker 1: didn't make this book, it sounds like you have enough
Speaker 1: for a couple of volumes. There's a lot of times
Speaker 1: when people are close to death, they start seeing and
Speaker 1: hearing things that we don't and a lot of times
Speaker 1: people are chalking that up to dementia or drugs that
Speaker 1: they're on or whatnot. My own father, who passed eighteen
Speaker 1: years ago, the last couple of days, he was seeing
Speaker 1: people that he knew in the room. He had severe
Speaker 1: Parkinson's and dementia, but he was seeing these things before
Speaker 1: he passed the congestive heart failure. So was he really
Speaker 1: seeing people? That's up for debate, but it happens with
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Is it those neurons firing just
Speaker 1: before death or is it something else?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that's a great question. And this is probably
Speaker 2: where I might get in the most trouble but most physicians,
Speaker 2: and that is changing now. But I'd say that the
Speaker 2: default worldview of Western medicine is that who you are
Speaker 2: is a complex biochemical machine, this thing, and consciousness or
Speaker 2: awareness is a byproduct of your neurons talking to each
Speaker 2: other and firing, and that if the brain dies or
Speaker 2: shuts down, then consciousness itself disappears. That never rang true
Speaker 2: to me. And after having been practicing for several years
Speaker 2: now in the ICU, I've seen stories and heard stories
Speaker 2: that make me more convinced than ever that consciousness does
Speaker 2: in fact continue on after the death of the physical body.
Speaker 2: I would there's so many resources now that are being built,
Speaker 2: the books that are being talked about. The near death
Speaker 2: literature is exploding, just the anecdotes, the stories, hundreds of
Speaker 2: thousands of stories indicating something in fact does continue on.
Speaker 2: And I think if you if you pull the average
Speaker 2: American or the average human being around the world. I
Speaker 2: would say most people believe that consciousness does in fact
Speaker 2: go on, that there is some form of afterlife. Now
Speaker 2: we have different beliefs about what that might look like,
Speaker 2: but I would say most people feel that there is
Speaker 2: an afterlife. But in the western scientific world, that's not
Speaker 2: the case. In my experience, I've had paid I've had
Speaker 2: a gentleman have a heart attack, pronounced dead by me
Speaker 2: with EG that means brainwave of electrical brain of activity.
Speaker 2: That that was isoelectric, meaning flat, no brain we of
Speaker 2: activity come back. His heart starts up again, only to
Speaker 2: tell me and describe a story of meeting many many
Speaker 2: people that have since passed on and then and then
Speaker 2: have to come back to his body. And the interesting
Speaker 2: thing is, and this is not an isolated incidence. There's
Speaker 2: many cases of this. If you if you're visually seeing things,
Speaker 2: at least when you're in a body, your occipital lobes,
Speaker 2: the part of your brain that processes visual input, will
Speaker 2: light up. It will show that it's it's processing information.
Speaker 2: And he saw a whole bunch of things in this
Speaker 2: period of being dead, and yet nothing showed up on
Speaker 2: his EEG. I know there are other doctors who are
Speaker 2: talking about this. I think we're on the early early
Speaker 2: stages of a shift in worldview within the sciences where
Speaker 2: we're going to start to acknowledge there is something else
Speaker 2: happening that we haven't been able to quantify. But I
Speaker 2: will say if you had asked me twenty thirty years
Speaker 2: ago what the general perspective of other physicians is, I
Speaker 2: would say almost everyone believes that we're just the meat suit.
Speaker 2: But more and more physicians that I talked to actually
Speaker 2: are starting to consider that consciousness does in fact exist
Speaker 2: independent of the physical body.
Speaker 1: And that's great because before now you're right, it's just
Speaker 1: science with science, and they didn't want to hear anything
Speaker 1: that contradicted what they thought of with science, as if
Speaker 1: we even though we're in the twenty first century, we
Speaker 1: think that, oh, we are on the edge, cutting edge.
Speaker 1: We have sciences just progress so much, and we know
Speaker 1: so much, and I personally don't think we know nearly
Speaker 1: as much as we think we do, and there's more
Speaker 1: out there, especially when you start looking at religion is religion,
Speaker 1: but spiritual experiences are very unique, and people could have
Speaker 1: a spiritual experience like a near death experience, and it
Speaker 1: could be along religious lines and others. It's totally unexpected
Speaker 1: what the experience. And lately I've been really listening to
Speaker 1: a lot of podcasts with near death experiencers because the
Speaker 1: subject fascinates me. I do definitely believe in that, but
Speaker 1: I want to hear other people's stories. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: gone through surgeries, I've been you know, under anesthesia. I
Speaker 1: never saw anything, so of course I didn't die on
Speaker 1: the table either, but it's it's really fascinating what's there.
Speaker 1: And I think we're reaching that stage, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: where it's starting to be more acceptable to accept that
Speaker 1: the two are can exist at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And if you really look at the near
Speaker 2: death literature and the stories even on just YouTube, what
Speaker 2: I notice whenever I do that is I feel touched.
Speaker 2: I feel transformed. I feel greater love for myself for
Speaker 2: those around me. I start to appreciate life more. There's
Speaker 2: a sense of meaning and purpose that I start I have,
Speaker 2: and the vast majority of near death experiencers they report
Speaker 2: feeling transformed, like deeply, deeply transformed. They feel held and
Speaker 2: cared for, they feel like there's there is some presence
Speaker 2: watching out for them, guiding them, guiding their life, and
Speaker 2: and generally they I feel they become kinder people, nicer people,
Speaker 2: compassionate people. That and I think that's what happens when
Speaker 2: you shift your identity from just being the body to
Speaker 2: recognizing that you're something so much more that life and
Speaker 2: love don't know death, They keep they keep going it.
Speaker 2: It helps you become a kinder person. And and that's
Speaker 2: as I really started to dive into this literature and
Speaker 2: doing my studies and my research, I realized that's what's happening.
Speaker 2: We become kinder people. It doesn't if you have beliefs
Speaker 2: in the afterlife. I mean, many people have beliefs in
Speaker 2: the actual life, but it doesn't make them good human beings.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make them kind people. But when you when
Speaker 2: you have that sense of love, when you have that
Speaker 2: sense of oh, this is this is what I'm here
Speaker 2: to learn. This is the classroom, which a lot a
Speaker 2: lot of near death experiences report. And if and if
Speaker 2: you realize we're all in the same classroom, we're all learning.
Speaker 2: Why not help each other, Why not help everyone get
Speaker 2: a's so to speak. You know, there's no there's no
Speaker 2: curve in this classroom, we don't we don't have to
Speaker 2: segregate ourselves. We can help each other. So I actually
Speaker 2: end my book with a chapter I think. I think
Speaker 2: the chapter title is be Kind, because that's it. It
Speaker 2: ultimately boils down to that if you're if you consider
Speaker 2: yourself a spiritual person, but you're not kind, you're not
Speaker 2: doing it right. There's there's spirituality will bring you to
Speaker 2: kindness and compassion.
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of that, I think is
Speaker 1: it's the nature versus nurture argument, where depending on a
Speaker 1: person's home life, how they grew up, whether it was
Speaker 1: let's say, in a religious family or you know, instilled
Speaker 1: with certain cultural beliefs, and they can they a person
Speaker 1: can act on those, or a person could be a
Speaker 1: little bit more aware and start realizing and seeing the
Speaker 1: lessons and become that kind of person. I think too
Speaker 1: many people fall into the trap of physical, physical pleasures,
Speaker 1: physical power, physical sensations, and thinking that even if they're religious,
Speaker 1: even if they have beliefs, they still are not nice
Speaker 1: people because in some way they're either lashing out or
Speaker 1: they're holding on to that low vibrational negative trauma or
Speaker 1: outlook that again might have been impressed on them when
Speaker 1: they were younger, growing up. There's a lot of factors
Speaker 1: that can come into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Actually, what you just said is one of
Speaker 2: the avenues that I think we can use to practice
Speaker 2: a really deep level of forgiveness. I talk a lot
Speaker 2: about it in the book because I feel like when
Speaker 2: people are facing death their own or a loved one,
Speaker 2: inevitably what happens is a lot from the past comes up,
Speaker 2: a lot of unhealed hurt and pain. Families that were
Speaker 2: distanced from each other, estranged, they're often forced to see
Speaker 2: each other again when the father or the mother is dying,
Speaker 2: and when they come together, anything that hasn't been healed
Speaker 2: just comes right up to the surface. And I feel
Speaker 2: like forgiveness is such a huge gift to yourself if
Speaker 2: you know how to do it. And so one of
Speaker 2: the first ways in is well, I should talk a
Speaker 2: little bit about the deeper meaning of true forgiveness. But
Speaker 2: what I want to share first is if someone did
Speaker 2: something wrong to you and you can see through the
Speaker 2: negative action and see them as a child, see them
Speaker 2: in see all the trauma that they went through, all
Speaker 2: the pain, the abuse, all of the belief systems and
Speaker 2: potential brainwashing and cultural indoctrination that they got from the media,
Speaker 2: from their family, from friends. Who knows that has turned
Speaker 2: them into who they are now, and recognize that their
Speaker 2: behavior is a product of that, and then you don't
Speaker 2: take it as personally. Then you realize, oh, what they're
Speaker 2: telling me, what they're saying, the way they're behaving, it's
Speaker 2: not personal, a reflection of everything that they've been through.
Speaker 2: Now we'll say something. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you're saying
Speaker 2: what they did was right. It doesn't mean what you're
Speaker 2: saying what they did to you is okay. You can
Speaker 2: forgive someone and never talk to them again. You can
Speaker 2: place those boundaries. You can tell them what they did
Speaker 2: was absolutely inappropriate, wrong, if it's necessary to take legal action.
Speaker 2: I'm saying, like, the actions that you take in the
Speaker 2: world is distinct from what's happening inside, in the mind
Speaker 2: and in the heart. And the reason why I like
Speaker 2: to say that forgiveness is a gift that you give
Speaker 2: yourself is because there's such a burden when you are
Speaker 2: resentful towards someone, when you hate someone, when you judge them,
Speaker 2: when you hold grievances, and you carry that with you
Speaker 2: for years. It is such a burden. And if you forgive,
Speaker 2: if you can see through to the innocence of the
Speaker 2: other person, and if you can somehow recognize a similarity.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's that we're all human beings. Maybe it's that
Speaker 2: we all face struggle when we grow up some way
Speaker 2: to connect at a deep level to the other person.
Speaker 2: Then you're able to drop that burden. You're able to
Speaker 2: let it go. And for me, part of what drove
Speaker 2: me to write this book is I would see some
Speaker 2: families do this unconsciously, maybe they did it consciously. They
Speaker 2: would use the opportunity of impending death their own or
Speaker 2: their loved one to resolve those grievances, to let things go,
Speaker 2: to finally decide to forgive and give themselves the permission
Speaker 2: of living life without the burden of judgment. And then
Speaker 2: I've seen family members who don't do that, and they
Speaker 2: fight to the bitter end. There's terror and shame and
Speaker 2: betrayal and anger and rage to the very very bitter
Speaker 2: end and then beyond. And then I thought, you know
Speaker 2: what allows some families to turn death into a moment
Speaker 2: of healing and others not. Let me share the stories,
Speaker 2: let me capture it and then allow the reader to
Speaker 2: learn from that.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure what people don't realize unless they've experienced it.
Speaker 1: Holding on the negativity and negative thoughts, it just drags
Speaker 1: you down. It drags you down, makes you miserable or
Speaker 1: at least have a negative outlook towards life and not
Speaker 1: trusting people. And I'll tell a little story. I had
Speaker 1: someone in my life about twenty five years ago who
Speaker 1: really did a lot to me, and I didn't realize
Speaker 1: how bad it was until years later. And I held
Speaker 1: such resentment towards this person. I didn't even want to
Speaker 1: speak their name. I wanted nothing to do with them.
Speaker 1: Some mutual friends were still friends with this person, and
Speaker 1: I would run into them once in a while and
Speaker 1: I was just I wanted nothing to do with them.
Speaker 1: And this person wound up passing away about six years ago,
Speaker 1: and even at that time, I still had negative feelings
Speaker 1: towards them. But as I've been going on my own
Speaker 1: spiritual journey, I realized I had to let it go.
Speaker 1: I had to there's no sense in continuing to be angry.
Speaker 1: What happened happened, and I had to admit to myself
Speaker 1: it was a learning experience I did learn so much
Speaker 1: out of that, and even though this person passed, I
Speaker 1: still forgave them. And does that mean, you know, if
Speaker 1: they were still here, i'd allow it to happen again.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, and I probably wouldn't have any contact with them.
Speaker 1: But I had to let that go in my heart
Speaker 1: to just say I forgive you. You did what you did,
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to hold it against you anymore
Speaker 1: and move on with my life. And I have felt
Speaker 1: so much lighter since then.
Speaker 2: Wow, you nailed it. That's exactly it. That's so thank you.
Speaker 2: You could have I could have said it better. We
Speaker 2: all go through moments like that, and maybe that's something
Speaker 2: we should all consider that as human beings, no matter
Speaker 2: what country you're in, no matter what religion you practice,
Speaker 2: we are human beings that suffer. We suffer in very
Speaker 2: unique ways that it's so diverse, but in the end,
Speaker 2: like the pain is the same, the struggle is the same.
Speaker 2: Now some people it's worse than others, but you're right,
Speaker 2: we can learn from it, we can grow from it.
Speaker 2: We become who we are now, resilient and strong and
Speaker 2: powerful because of those traumas in the past. And it
Speaker 2: takes a willingness. Sometimes the teeniest amount of willingness will
Speaker 2: start the ball rolling. Maybe it's just a consideration of
Speaker 2: maybe at some point later in my life, I will
Speaker 2: be at a place where I could forgive that person.
Speaker 2: And I like that you use the word let go
Speaker 2: because forgiveness can be can trigger people that the word forgiveness,
Speaker 2: but you can replace it with letting go. And the key,
Speaker 2: as you said, is it doesn't mean you do anything different.
Speaker 2: At the level of form and action. You can still
Speaker 2: place those boundaries, but it's about going inside. Can you
Speaker 2: let go in here?
Speaker 1: Well, one other thing what taught me in that situation
Speaker 1: is I know of people throughout my life I have
Speaker 1: wronged and I always felt guilty about it. And then
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to reconnect with a lot of people in my past
Speaker 1: where I realized I was a jerk. I did not
Speaker 1: handle things the way I should have, and I really
Speaker 1: felt bad for what I did. So when I reached
Speaker 1: out to these people, I would apologize to them to
Speaker 1: make amends, and I would say ninety percent of the time,
Speaker 1: none of them ever remembered it, but I did, and
Speaker 1: because I did, it was still me letting go, apologizing,
Speaker 1: getting it out there in the open air. And you know,
Speaker 1: whether you know, I didn't really need to receive forgiveness
Speaker 1: for it. I just needed to say I'm sorry. And
Speaker 1: I think that the people appreciated that, even if they
Speaker 1: didn't remember. But I just reached this point my life
Speaker 1: where I just wanted to make amends with everyone and
Speaker 1: try to move forward with the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Uh, to not do that, Yeah, that's great. Forgiving oneself
Speaker 2: is a is a whole other ballgame, and it's it
Speaker 2: can be a lot harder. It's because we're harder on
Speaker 2: ourselves most of the time. We because we see everything
Speaker 2: on the inside. We know what we intended, we know
Speaker 2: what we were feeling. So but it sounds like you
Speaker 2: were able to do that. There was one thing I
Speaker 2: was going to share, just to dive a little bit
Speaker 2: deeper into forgiveness or letting go, however you want to
Speaker 2: use that term. One. There's one level of forgiveness that
Speaker 2: is I would say the world's description of forgiveness and
Speaker 2: and it's it's not what I'm talking about. The world's
Speaker 2: forgiveness says you did something wrong. I'm the better person.
Speaker 2: I'm better than you, and because I'm better than you spiritually,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm gonna let this slide. I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 2: gonna forgive you. And that's sort of like a false charity,
Speaker 2: you know, That's not the forgiveness I'm talking about. There's
Speaker 2: a deeper level of forgiveness that cuts through, or sees
Speaker 2: through the appearance of wrongness. Someone does something wrong, or
Speaker 2: you do something wrong. That's the surface level. Deep forgiveness
Speaker 2: goes through that and goes to the core of who
Speaker 2: that person was, and then you see the story everything
Speaker 2: that led to that behavior, and then it goes even
Speaker 2: deeper and further to the nature of who they are.
Speaker 2: And this is where what you and I talked about
Speaker 2: at the beginning comes to play. If who our nature
Speaker 2: is is consciousness and even deeper you could say, pure awareness,
Speaker 2: It's not like there are little buckets of consciousness. There's
Speaker 2: only one consciousness. There's only one ground of awareness. And
Speaker 2: the deeper you go, the more you realize separation is
Speaker 2: an illusion. There's just oneness, this raw pure awareness that
Speaker 2: we are. And I would add to that the word innocence.
Speaker 2: There is no sin in pure awareness. There's no guilt
Speaker 2: in pure awareness. It's the ground of being. And if
Speaker 2: we can go to the core of someone that we
Speaker 2: think has wronged us and see that innocence and recognize
Speaker 2: that it's the same innocence in us, there's this instant
Speaker 2: sense of deep, profound connection with the other person. So
Speaker 2: you forgive the other person not because they've done something
Speaker 2: wrong and you're the better person. You forgive them because
Speaker 2: you see at the core of their being they are innocent,
Speaker 2: and at the core of your being your innocent, and
Speaker 2: so really there's nothing to forgive because all there is
Speaker 2: is innocence. That's a very deep level of forgiveness that
Speaker 2: is I think most but it's something we can strive towards.
Speaker 1: When you mentioned about those people who could they forgive,
Speaker 1: but they're kind of lording it over the person that
Speaker 1: I'm a better person than you, No, they're not, because
Speaker 1: to have that kind of mindset is negative. You're putting
Speaker 1: yourself over somebody else. You're not really forgiving them, You're
Speaker 1: patting yourself on the back for something that you've done.
Speaker 1: There's also the people who can't forgive themselves and can't
Speaker 1: love themselves, And I'm one of those people. For the
Speaker 1: longest time, since I was a child, I beat myself
Speaker 1: up constantly, and it's only been in the last couple
Speaker 1: of years that I've been able to accept myself, love myself,
Speaker 1: and move forward. And it's so freeing. But people who
Speaker 1: hold onto the past, hold onto the negativity, and it
Speaker 1: just it's a cycle that just continues over and over
Speaker 1: and over again because they can't learn to forgive themselves.
Speaker 1: They can't learn to let it go, like letting it
Speaker 1: go when somebody else has wronged you. So they beat
Speaker 1: themselves up, They get into drugs or alcohol abuse, they
Speaker 1: get into these really self destructive patterns because they can't
Speaker 1: love themselves and forgive themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, I'm so happy we're talking about this, because oftentimes,
Speaker 2: because the book is about death, we end up talking
Speaker 2: about after life things. But this is the core, this
Speaker 2: is the main message of the book, which is our
Speaker 2: life is meant to be a life of healing. It's
Speaker 2: it's as you said, it's a classroom where we're learning
Speaker 2: the course that these lessons. The interesting thing about self forgiveness,
Speaker 2: I'll say, no one can punish you better than yourself.
Speaker 2: We are so good at punishing ourselves and we do
Speaker 2: it for so long years are are, you know, for
Speaker 2: a whole life sometimes and it's because there's this deep,
Speaker 2: deep belief. We believe we have sinned, We believe we've
Speaker 2: done something wrong, and we don't deserve forgiveness. We deserve punishment,
Speaker 2: and it will go as far as it can or
Speaker 2: needs to for the the ego, that part of us
Speaker 2: that believes that we're alone and separate and unworthy to
Speaker 2: feel justified. Now, you said earlier that you know that
Speaker 2: that type of worldly forgiveness lording it over over someone
Speaker 2: is negative. I would say it's also negative to punish
Speaker 2: yourself because you believe that you are inherently a guilty,
Speaker 2: sinful person. People will do it, like you said, with
Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol or depriving themselves of things. Sometimes it's
Speaker 2: a silent suffering, a silent punishment. But the gateway out
Speaker 2: of it. First, I always start with there needs to
Speaker 2: be a willingness, a willingness to see differently, a willingness
Speaker 2: to shift your perspective. All you got to do is
Speaker 2: tell yourself I'm willing And generally what happens is the
Speaker 2: suffering gets so bad that you realize something's got to change,
Speaker 2: and then the willingness comes, and then after the willingness
Speaker 2: comes the tools and the path to healing. And that
Speaker 2: part of what is in my book, but it's not
Speaker 2: just in my book. There's many other books that talk
Speaker 2: about this is the willingness to see that there is
Speaker 2: a part of you that is innocent. That's the part
Speaker 2: you got to see, that part of you that did
Speaker 2: its best with what you knew well, and that's all
Speaker 2: we're ever doing. We're always doing the best that we
Speaker 2: can with what we know. And if we can get
Speaker 2: to the core of that and see even if it's
Speaker 2: the sliver of it, sliver of innocence, that's the beginning
Speaker 2: of healing.
Speaker 1: And with that, in going back to forgiveness, can you
Speaker 1: really forgive somebody else if you won't forgive yourself, You
Speaker 1: need to be able to forgive yourself and then be
Speaker 1: able to forgive others so that you're coming more from
Speaker 1: a place of positivity and that your load is lightened
Speaker 1: and you feel better. And then you talk to that
Speaker 1: person or even silently in your head. You know you
Speaker 1: may not need to confront them, but you let it go.
Speaker 1: You say, I forgive you, and I don't think that
Speaker 1: could really happen until you've reached a point where you
Speaker 1: can forgive yourself.
Speaker 2: You are naming something that I think is not talked
Speaker 2: about enough. But it's like, there's a mirror like quality
Speaker 2: to the world, to the to the universe. The way
Speaker 2: you see someone else deeply is mirrors how you see yourself,
Speaker 2: and then the way you see yourself mirrors how you
Speaker 2: see others. There's an interesting story that happened, and I
Speaker 2: allude to it in the in the book, but the
Speaker 2: longer story behind it is there was a surgeon that
Speaker 2: was very, very difficult to deal with early on in
Speaker 2: my career, and he was very antagonistic, very angry most
Speaker 2: of the time. Whenever he would do a surgery and
Speaker 2: the patient would come up to his ICU, he would
Speaker 2: bark orders and tell the nurses and other physicians exactly
Speaker 2: what they need to do and how, and if anything
Speaker 2: went wrong it was our fault and not his. Very intense,
Speaker 2: hard to work with, and I remember I was so
Speaker 2: triggered by him, and I just thought like, gosh, what
Speaker 2: what what a rough person to be with, you know,
Speaker 2: and I would, uh, yeah, it was. It was those
Speaker 2: were rough days when he was in the ICU and
Speaker 2: then later on uh not related to him, but I
Speaker 2: had a patient come in beautiful young woman who had
Speaker 2: a respiratory disorder of her lungs ended up dying, and
Speaker 2: I felt so much guilt around her death because I
Speaker 2: thought I had done maybe there was something I could
Speaker 2: have done differently to save her life. And I was
Speaker 2: able to get to a point in the days after
Speaker 2: her death to really deeply forgive myself and realize, no,
Speaker 2: adam you you really did everything you could with what
Speaker 2: you knew about her at the time, and I could
Speaker 2: get to that innocence of who I was to see
Speaker 2: that I really was an innocent boy who did what
Speaker 2: he the best he could with what he knew, and
Speaker 2: that she died because it was her time and I
Speaker 2: was honest. I was a first person. I would be
Speaker 2: the first person to catch if I had made a mistake,
Speaker 2: and maybe there were things I could have done differently,
Speaker 2: but in the moment, I did what I could do.
Speaker 1: Best.
Speaker 2: Now how it relates to the surgeon is days after
Speaker 2: I had forgiven myself and I could see the innocence
Speaker 2: underneath the mistake. I started to recognize that I wasn't
Speaker 2: triggered by the surgeon anymore. It was a very interesting phenomenon.
Speaker 2: He would still behave the same way, still bark orders,
Speaker 2: still be angry, but it's like they would just washed
Speaker 2: through me. I didn't take anything personally, and I realized, Oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's just being who he is because that's what he knows,
Speaker 2: that's how he was raised, that's how he was taught.
Speaker 2: Nothing was taken personally. And my intuition was that it
Speaker 2: was deeply connected to my own self forgiveness. Because I
Speaker 2: could forgive myself, I was able to see through what
Speaker 2: he was doing and how he was behaving. It wasn't
Speaker 2: even a one to one connection. I just started to
Speaker 2: see others more likely. And I feel like the more
Speaker 2: we are able to figure forgive ourselves, the less the
Speaker 2: world triggers us, the less others will bother us. And
Speaker 2: it's vice versa. There's that mirror like quality.
Speaker 1: I'm smiling because that's absolutely right, especially in my case.
Speaker 1: I totally agree one thousand percent. It's you forgive yourself,
Speaker 1: things become a lot easier. Even when more problems come up,
Speaker 1: or if you screw up and do something, you take
Speaker 1: it more as a learning experience. Okay, this is how
Speaker 1: I handled it. I did not handle it well. I'm
Speaker 1: learning from this and I'm moving forward and I won't
Speaker 1: do it again. And I think that's also part of
Speaker 1: the purpose of this life, is to learn and grow
Speaker 1: and become the best version of yourself you can be.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say a better person, because that's
Speaker 1: very subjective, but being the best version of yourself in
Speaker 1: this lifetime and learning from those mistakes, and it makes
Speaker 1: moving forward a lot easier. Even when things are crazy,
Speaker 1: you don't like things that are going on, you just
Speaker 1: just let it, let it roll off you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I have a friend who's retired marine,
Speaker 2: and he was sharing with me that he after after
Speaker 2: he finished his time at the Marine Corps, it was
Speaker 2: so much he had guilt over and he made a
Speaker 2: decision to himself that he the the intensity that he
Speaker 2: applied in the Marines of getting things done, like when
Speaker 2: they had a job, nothing mattered, they would get it
Speaker 2: done at every resource emotional, mental, physical, would be marshaled
Speaker 2: to ensure that this mission was accomplished, He said, he
Speaker 2: applied the same intensity to what he called radical self forgiveness.
Speaker 2: He basically put the intensity of his work into making
Speaker 2: sure he forgave himself, and every time a guilt would
Speaker 2: come up in the years after, he would he would
Speaker 2: like get laser focused and he would just go to
Speaker 2: the core of the issue and he would forgive himself.
Speaker 2: And I was so impressed. I don't think I approached
Speaker 2: my forgiveness with that level of intensity, but I probably
Speaker 2: should if we all did just a percentage of that
Speaker 2: and treated it as as important as getting up and
Speaker 2: going to work each day, because that's how we get paid,
Speaker 2: that's how we put food on the table. If we
Speaker 2: treated self forgiveness with that level of intensity, we would
Speaker 2: see great, great healing.
Speaker 1: That is so profound. I absolutely agree with that. I
Speaker 1: was wondering if we could go over We've got about
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes left in the show, if we could talk
Speaker 1: a couple about a couple of stories that you mentioned
Speaker 1: in the book or otherwise about these experiences with people dying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well, one that comes to mind has
Speaker 2: to do well. I'll share the story a young It
Speaker 2: was a young boy. I was in Tucson at the time.
Speaker 2: I was working in Arizona and we had a multi
Speaker 2: vehicle pile up. It was a lot of a huge
Speaker 2: crash and he was the only survivor. Initially of the crash,
Speaker 2: paramedics called told us that they were coming in hot
Speaker 2: with the trauma. I was in the trauma bay anticipating
Speaker 2: the The young kid comes in. He's on a stretcher.
Speaker 2: There's a female paramedic straddled over him like doing chest compressions.
Speaker 2: Nurses are coming. They're immediately trying to get ivy lines in.
Speaker 2: Another paramedic is just ripping his jeans and his clothes
Speaker 2: off with scissors. All of it is part for the
Speaker 2: course for a trauma. They welam into the trauma bay
Speaker 2: and the er physician and I tag team to run
Speaker 2: the code. Running a code a code blue is when
Speaker 2: someone's heart has stopped. Running a code essentially means you're
Speaker 2: at the foot of the bed and you help assign
Speaker 2: roles to everyone and you ensure that the process goes
Speaker 2: very smoothly. So the first few minutes it was the
Speaker 2: er doc, but because we were so busy, the er
Speaker 2: doc stepped away and I took over. So I was
Speaker 2: at the foot of the bed. Here's this kid in
Speaker 2: front of me. I have a respiratory therapist placing a
Speaker 2: breathing tube through his throat. He had a massive gash
Speaker 2: through his chest where his chest. This might be TMI
Speaker 2: for your listeners.
Speaker 1: That's okay, it's fine.
Speaker 2: I'll minimize the gore then. Suffice it to say the
Speaker 2: scene was very, very bloody and chaotic. And what was
Speaker 2: interesting though, was after we had assigned roles and we
Speaker 2: were pausing every two minutes checking for a pulse, doing
Speaker 2: chest compressions, giving medications, we got into a rhythm and
Speaker 2: a flow and the chaos of the room sort of
Speaker 2: died down. It was a little bit quieter, and everyone
Speaker 2: was just doing their duty, you know, pushing medications, doing
Speaker 2: chest compressions, checking for a pulse, pausing like we would
Speaker 2: just go through our cycles. While that was happening, we
Speaker 2: were maybe twenty minutes in. I got this sense of
Speaker 2: someone behind me into my right and I thought it
Speaker 2: was the ed physician. At first, I kind of looked
Speaker 2: over to assuming he was like walking up to tell
Speaker 2: me something, but there was no one there, and I
Speaker 2: looked back and I really felt the presence, and this
Speaker 2: sort of interesting thing happened. I got the intuitive knowing
Speaker 2: that it was the boy standing next to me.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's funny, like I could feel like it was
Speaker 2: a masculine presence. I could even see his face in
Speaker 2: my mind's eye. It was weird. And I should preface
Speaker 2: this by saying, I'm not psychic. I've never been trained.
Speaker 2: I don't have any exposure to that. This is just
Speaker 2: These are the stories of what I felt when I
Speaker 2: was there. There's this kid next to me who's you know,
Speaker 2: his body is there. I feel him right next to me,
Speaker 2: and there's a weird thing. I could hear him asking
Speaker 2: a question, but it wasn't audible. It was in my head,
Speaker 2: but it didn't feel like my voice. It felt like his.
Speaker 2: It's hard to describe. I don't even know if I'm
Speaker 2: doing this justice, but I hear him tell me, is
Speaker 2: that me? And he was looking at the body, and
Speaker 2: I'm looking at the body too, and I sort of
Speaker 2: tell him in my head, that's your body. It's not you,
Speaker 2: that's your body. So I wanted to make the distinction
Speaker 2: for him. And the interesting thing was he wasn't worried
Speaker 2: or afraid. The emotional feeling that I got from him
Speaker 2: was amusement, like, oh, how interesting, interesting that that's my body,
Speaker 2: you know, like sort of uh, like you're like you're
Speaker 2: watching something and like a movie or something. And what
Speaker 2: happened after was was really interesting. As soon as I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's your body, it felt like the scene, the entire
Speaker 2: scene of his body and the nurses and the therapists
Speaker 2: became like a thin film, like like the film that
Speaker 2: you that a projector will shine light through, you know,
Speaker 2: like a movie film. And I felt like I was
Speaker 2: diving through the film and I was entering an ocean.
Speaker 2: The mental image that I had that that appeared to
Speaker 2: me was that beneath the film was a vast ocean,
Speaker 2: and I could see the rippling waves and it's almost
Speaker 2: like you know how when you go out to the
Speaker 2: beach on a on a beautiful sunny day and you
Speaker 2: see the sun sort of like reflect and it creates
Speaker 2: like sparkles on the on the ripples of the waves.
Speaker 2: That's what I felt like. I was seeing this like
Speaker 2: sparkly ocean vastness, and and I got the intuition of like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's this boy's soul. That was the intuition like this
Speaker 2: this boy, this is his brilliant, beautiful, vast nature underneath
Speaker 2: the film of the body. It's like the body was
Speaker 2: the most superficial layer of who he was, but here
Speaker 2: he was in his in his you know, awesomeness, And
Speaker 2: then I felt like he was watching what I was watching.
Speaker 2: We were both going through this together, and I told him,
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's your soul. I think
Speaker 2: that's who you are. And then what happened is I
Speaker 2: felt like I dived through this ocean of light, and
Speaker 2: underneath it was an absolutely profound, vast expanse of pure light,
Speaker 2: like no ripples, no wave, no ocean, just an endless
Speaker 2: expanse of light. And then my intuition was, Oh, that's
Speaker 2: who we both really are. That's the that's the depth
Speaker 2: of all humanity, that's where we're all won. And I
Speaker 2: remember telling him I was equally surprised because all of
Speaker 2: this was happening in my field of vision. And I
Speaker 2: told him, I think that's who we are, you and me,
Speaker 2: both all of us, and he sort of smiled and
Speaker 2: like sort of nodded and acknowledged, and we both sat
Speaker 2: there or stood there watching this. It was mesmerizing. It
Speaker 2: was endless and so bright. I felt like it was
Speaker 2: overlaid on what I was witnessing, and then I kind
Speaker 2: of rested there for a while, and by then we
Speaker 2: were maybe forty minutes in something like that, and he
Speaker 2: had been progressing. His heart rate went from For those
Speaker 2: who are listening and you have medical background, he transitioned
Speaker 2: from pea to v fib, course of v fib, then
Speaker 2: fine v fib ventricular fibrillation. We shocked him a couple
Speaker 2: of times no effect to asis, which is flat line,
Speaker 2: and he basically was in flatline for the past ten
Speaker 2: minutes every time we checked his pulse, and by forty
Speaker 2: minutes we just well over forty minutes. We decided we
Speaker 2: were not getting him back, and so I asked everyone
Speaker 2: if there was anyone that disagreed with calling it. Everyone
Speaker 2: said no, and so then we called it, and that
Speaker 2: was his time of death, and I still felt him
Speaker 2: next to me. And after his time of death, I
Speaker 2: asked for a moment of silence, and I could see
Speaker 2: him watching this with me, and he didn't say this,
Speaker 2: but the emotional feeling that I got was he was like, hmm, cool,
Speaker 2: and then he was gone. He just disappeared like that,
Speaker 2: and there was no one next to me anymore. He
Speaker 2: just vanished. It was such a surreal experience for me.
Speaker 2: But what I got most, which is very I shared
Speaker 2: because it was very healing for me, is this feeling
Speaker 2: of diving into who he really was and then discovering
Speaker 2: who I really was Through all of that.
Speaker 1: I have to admit I am stunned and astounded. That
Speaker 1: is one of the most incredible stories that I've ever
Speaker 1: heard of what I would call a shared death experience.
Speaker 1: And the fact that you picked up on him and
Speaker 1: you don't have to be psychic or think yourself. Everybody
Speaker 1: has an ability to at some point to sense these things,
Speaker 1: and it was probably one of those things that you
Speaker 1: were meant to experience. The fact that, again I've been
Speaker 1: doing a lot of research into near death experiences, the
Speaker 1: dispassion that a person feels seeing their own body. They
Speaker 1: just look at it like, oh yeah, they have no
Speaker 1: emotional connection to it while they're out of it. The
Speaker 1: fact that he wasn't going back probably even added to
Speaker 1: And there's no fear and but the rest of it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time.
Speaker 1: That has really struck a chord with me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I Melissa, I had never heard
Speaker 2: the term shared death experience until after I started doing
Speaker 2: interviews for the book. I didn't know that that was
Speaker 2: a thing, but you're right. I think he was seeing
Speaker 2: that and I was seeing what he was seeing.
Speaker 1: Wow. Well we're going to end on that note that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's phenomenal, But thank you so much for
Speaker 1: sharing that. Now for your book, Love does Not Know Death,
Speaker 1: Stories of Death, Dying and the Miracles of true Forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Now where can people find that?
Speaker 2: That is on Amazon. I have a website Love does
Speaker 2: Not Know Death dot com where you can sign up
Speaker 2: for a newsletter newsletter. But the best way to stay
Speaker 2: up to date with everything I'm doing is my sub
Speaker 2: stack adamz feed dot substack dot com. I call it
Speaker 2: Adventures and Kindness and I basically write articles several times
Speaker 2: a month sharing what I learned in the hospital and
Speaker 2: what I learn in life.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Now you have a podcast, right.
Speaker 2: Oh that's right. Yes, it's a it's called Letters to
Speaker 2: the Sky that I do with my best friend Stephen Downs.
Speaker 2: It is for those who are really deep in the
Speaker 2: spiritual path. Steven and I talk a lot about the
Speaker 2: ins and outs of the spiritual path, almost very similar
Speaker 2: to what you and I did today, Melissa, and and
Speaker 2: it's like, once you realize that that's the classroom you're in,
Speaker 2: you want to learn the lessons you want and you
Speaker 2: want to do it well. And that's what we talk
Speaker 2: about in the podcast.
Speaker 1: Fantastic Well, Adam, this has been rivening. This is one
Speaker 1: of the most eye opening interviews I've done in a while.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for coming on the show
Speaker 1: and hopefully people will be picking up your book and
Speaker 1: read some more.
Speaker 2: Thank you all right, well, thank you for.
Speaker 1: Being on the show. Wow, I'm gonna be very honest
Speaker 1: with you. I'm stunned and just overwhelmed with the entire interview.
Speaker 1: Probably people wanted to hear more about the death experiences
Speaker 1: that Adam had to share, but I think we covered
Speaker 1: so much that is so important for people to realize
Speaker 1: without being preachy. And but that last story I had
Speaker 1: to wipe my eyes afterwards. I'm tearing up. It's so
Speaker 1: for profound and I hope you as the audience feel
Speaker 1: the same way that I did listening to it. So
Speaker 1: I want to thank you Adam for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: A wonderful interview. I'm very pleased and if he ever,
Speaker 1: if he writes another book, I'll have him back on Definitely.
Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit more about some more of
Speaker 1: his stories next time. So until then, everyone, you have
Speaker 1: a wonderful week, and you all be good humans and
Speaker 1: we will talk with you soon.
Speaker 2: See you