1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,919 in paranormal talk radio in the UK and around the world. 3 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,679 Hi everyone, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you 4 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,320 happen to be in this particular timeline, Welcome to trans 5 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,200 dimensional Realities, where we delve into the stranger aspect of 6 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,880 our current reality. I'm your host, Melissa Lee, and I 7 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,679 don't know what it's like in the rest of the country, 8 00:00:42,679 --> 00:00:46,159 but here in the Northeast, we've had two days of summer. 9 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,840 It's eighty two degrees outside. We're not supposed to get 10 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,039 this for another couple of months. Just two weeks ago 11 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,759 we were down in the twenties and below. So mother 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,520 Nature is certainly having a time. Makes me wonder what 13 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,159 the rest of the summer of the spring actually is 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,200 going to look like. So let's hope keep your fingers crossed. 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,760 We don't suddenly get more snow. And I've seen snow 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,239 fall in April, so I want to keep the nice 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,760 weather anyway, Let's get into the program. Our guest today 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,359 is doctor Adam Risby. Now Doctor Risby is a critical 19 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:28,920 care physician and neurologist whose work bridges medicine and nondual Wisdom, 20 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:33,519 author of Love does Not Know Death. He draws from 21 00:01:33,599 --> 00:01:37,400 years in the ICU and decades of contemplative study to 22 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:43,480 show how forgiveness transforms fear into peace. He lives in California, 23 00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:47,400 where he teaches, writes, and co hosts the podcast Letters 24 00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:50,920 to the Sky. So please welcome doctor Adam Risby to 25 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,680 the show. How are you, doctor Risbey? 26 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: Hey, Melissa, it's a pleasure to be here. 27 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being here. I'm really fascinated to 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,200 talk to you about, not only with your background working 29 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:06,480 in the hospital as an emergency room position. 30 00:02:06,959 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: I see you, I see you wait towards here, do 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,080 the same thing more or less. 32 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, And then how you got to be writing 33 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:19,120 this one book and that sets you down this path. 34 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,159 So if you can tell us a little bit about 35 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:22,120 how that all started. 36 00:02:22,599 --> 00:02:27,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I you know, I was really interested in 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,319 spirituality from the get go when I was young. I 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,479 think that my mom and my dad sort of instilled 39 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,159 in me a desire to get to the core truth 40 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:41,479 of it all, why we're here, what we're doing here, 41 00:02:41,479 --> 00:02:47,840 and where we're headed, sort of the perennial questions, And 42 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:50,879 that was actually so much a part of my life 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,759 that right before the year before going into medical school, 44 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,080 I was dead set on being a comparative religion and 45 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:06,280 philosophy professor. I actually majored in that in college, and 46 00:03:06,319 --> 00:03:07,879 I said, Okay, this is what I want to do. 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,840 I want to teach people how to embrace multiple traditions 48 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:17,319 to find the truth within all. I really valued harmony 49 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:21,039 and tolerance, something I think the world needs a lot 50 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:27,159 more of these days. Yeah, and you know, my father 51 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:32,280 was raised, he was he's he was Pakistani, passed away now, 52 00:03:32,319 --> 00:03:36,840 but he he had this like in many ways he 53 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,080 was he was modern and progressive, but with his children. 54 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,800 He wanted his children to either have either be a doctor, 55 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,439 a lawyer, or an engineer. And and if you if 56 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:53,080 you're a family from not the United States, you know 57 00:03:53,159 --> 00:03:57,520 that first gen children often you know the weight of 58 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:00,199 your the future of the of the family is on 59 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,680 your shoulders because you're often the first one to go 60 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:05,520 to college and the first one to have higher level degrees. 61 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:08,560 So the expectation was that I would do that, and 62 00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:10,719 he didn't quite like that. I wanted to be a professor. 63 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,199 So I think his words were over my dead. 64 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,319 Speaker 1: Body, Okay, I think that goes a little bit beyond 65 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:17,480 not liking But. 66 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was a rebellious teenager or twenty something 67 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:26,199 year old, and so I decided I would not go 68 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,800 to medicine, which he wanted me to do, but instead 69 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:30,759 be a barista at Starbucks. 70 00:04:32,519 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: That's rebellious. 71 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I did that for a year, and I'm grateful 72 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,480 because it was my first real exposure to living in 73 00:04:42,519 --> 00:04:48,240 the real world, having to pay my bills, earning my keep, 74 00:04:49,319 --> 00:04:53,920 interacting with people, interacting with a manager, supervisor. And then 75 00:04:53,959 --> 00:04:57,079 I realized, like, oh, do I really want my life 76 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,879 to be this? And it wasn't bad. There's a lot 77 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:03,800 of people who make you know they're living like that. 78 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:07,319 But I decided I want to go into medicine, and 79 00:05:07,439 --> 00:05:10,519 I went into medicine, and I became a doctor. But 80 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,720 that part of me that strove for what is the 81 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,120 truth underneath it all? What's what's the purpose? Why are we? 82 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,120 What are we here to do before we die? That 83 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,000 never left me. 84 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,079 Speaker 1: You know, that's a question a lot of us have, 85 00:05:28,199 --> 00:05:31,199 And I've been down my own spiritual path and doing 86 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,360 a lot of research and trying to find out, you know, 87 00:05:35,519 --> 00:05:37,800 what is the purpose of being here? What is the 88 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,199 purpose of this life. And I started off on a 89 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,000 Christian path, but then in my twenties I broke off. 90 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,480 And you know, I've been learning a lot since about 91 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:52,199 a lot of different points of view. But I do 92 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,439 definitely believe that there's something to this. We are here 93 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,360 temporarily and we're here to learn, and I think that 94 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:04,800 what we were talking about earlier, love and forgiveness is 95 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,399 something that definitely is on the agenda. 96 00:06:07,879 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: It's not the syllabus, yes it is. Yeah, yeah, we're 97 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:14,720 we're taking a course, for sure, And and I don't 98 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,040 think people know what the syllabus is or what the 99 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,839 course is about. But part of what your searching and 100 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,759 my searching did was we just we discover one that yeah, 101 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,399 we're taking a course, we're in a classroom, and we're 102 00:06:31,399 --> 00:06:34,079 here to learn something, and that there is there is 103 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,600 somewhat of a syllabus, but it's not it's not explicit. 104 00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:41,560 You gotta hunt, You gotta hunt for it. You have 105 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,079 to wake up to it and realize that that that is, 106 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,680 in fact what's going on. That's the context. So you're 107 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,079 so right about that, And. 108 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,639 Speaker 1: If you also look at a lot of your experiences 109 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:57,000 in life, even the negative ones have lessons to teach you. You know, 110 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,399 I can just say right now, everything that I've had 111 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,759 happened in my life, and I've had a lot happen, 112 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:09,560 especially the last few years. I've even though they just 113 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:13,040 say it they sucked at the time, I am a 114 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,160 better person for them. I've learned, I've grown, I've become 115 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,920 more empathetic and feel like I'm more on the right 116 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:22,120 path these days. 117 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had a mentor of mine long ago once say, 118 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,079 life isn't about preventing the fall, because you're going to fall. 119 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,279 It's about learning to stand back up every single time 120 00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:40,959 and building that resilience. And part of standing back up 121 00:07:40,959 --> 00:07:43,920 for me is learning what that was all about, what 122 00:07:43,959 --> 00:07:48,079 the fall was all about. And then with that sort 123 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,800 of resilient mindset, the growth mindset, I know I've become 124 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,560 a better person. I become a kinder person, a more 125 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:01,560 compassionate person. Oftentimes, especially after big mistake that I make, 126 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,480 I become way more compassionate to other people who make 127 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:08,199 mistakes because I know what it feels like. 128 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:16,199 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, absolutely so. With your history working in the ICU, 129 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,600 how long have you been doing that. 130 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: Let's see, I finished Critical Care Fellowship in twenty eighteen. 131 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,279 So I think I've been doing icy work if you 132 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:30,720 count the years of fellowship, maybe for about ten. 133 00:08:30,639 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: Years now, Okay, okay, and. 134 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,879 Speaker 2: I'm still kind of young in the whole journey of 135 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:36,879 being a. 136 00:08:36,879 --> 00:08:40,879 Speaker 1: Doctor, okay. And what prompted you to write your book 137 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:42,240 Love Does Not Know Death? 138 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, when I was in fellowship, it was my 139 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:55,480 first time working day and day out in an ICU. 140 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,159 I had done ICU work in residency and even in 141 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,440 medical school, but this was pure critical care. This was 142 00:09:04,519 --> 00:09:07,720 the whole point of the fellowship was to get critical 143 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,159 care down, and so being in the ICU, I ended 144 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:17,240 up being present with death quite often. And I remember 145 00:09:17,279 --> 00:09:21,080 my first few deaths. They were so intense, emotionally charged, 146 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,080 from dealing with the emotions of the family member to 147 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,159 the patient themselves not wanting to die, but then dying anyway. 148 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,840 I remember that there was one case early on. It 149 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:37,440 was a woman who was going to get I think 150 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:41,159 her gallbladder taken out or something, I forget, some abdominal surgery. 151 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,159 And I was walking with her, lovely old lady, and 152 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,000 she looked up at me and she had this look 153 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,080 of doom in her eyes, like it's like abject terror, 154 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:54,879 and she was holding my hands, say I'm going to die, 155 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,919 I know it, and she just looked right at me 156 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,240 with utter convey I know I'm going to die. I 157 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:03,720 don't want to die. And she held my hand super tight, 158 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,279 and me thinking, like, you know, you're just going for 159 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,320 a small procedure. This happens every day. I told her, 160 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:13,840 you're going to be fine. It's a simple procedure. You're 161 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,000 going to be fine. She went into the procedure room 162 00:10:17,039 --> 00:10:19,519 and she never made it out. She had a heart 163 00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:22,679 attack on the table and she came out, and I 164 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,639 was devastated. I thought. I looked at her in the 165 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,480 eyes and I told her she was going to be fine. 166 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,919 I wish I wish I had maybe helped her to 167 00:10:34,039 --> 00:10:36,960 embrace that possibility. I don't know. I really don't know 168 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,120 if I could have said anything differently because of where 169 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:44,559 she was at. But my first encounters with death were 170 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:49,720 very rough. So what I wanted to do was I 171 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:52,240 wanted to honor these patients. I wanted to honor her. 172 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:57,039 I wanted to honor the surprise death that I mean. 173 00:10:57,159 --> 00:10:59,279 I guess she kind of knew it was happening. But 174 00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:02,200 so what I did is I started writing a journal 175 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,279 and I called it my I still call it my 176 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,399 death journal. And with every death that I was that 177 00:11:07,519 --> 00:11:11,120 was my criteria. If I was physically present in the 178 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,120 moments leading up to or at their death, then I 179 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,639 would write about the patient. I would write what led 180 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,240 up to their death, everything that I did during the 181 00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:25,720 death to support them or otherwise, and then the lessons 182 00:11:25,759 --> 00:11:28,240 I learned that the insights that came to me, that 183 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:32,360 just the raw emotion of the experience, and I would capture. 184 00:11:32,879 --> 00:11:35,639 And I would also use that journal entry as a 185 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,799 means to pray for them. I would often write, like, 186 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,759 you know, I'm offering prayers to them, well wishes and 187 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,000 in my own word and language, and I would I 188 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,639 would often close the journal entry with just closing my 189 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,879 eyes and connecting with the with the that person, with 190 00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:57,440 that soul, and giving them love. And oftentimes it would 191 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,200 be a conversation in my head with them and letting 192 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,519 them know that thanking them for being in my life 193 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,480 when they came, and letting them know that they're free. 194 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,639 They're free to go and and and do the next 195 00:12:09,639 --> 00:12:13,480 thing in their journey. And I have I now have 196 00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:17,279 well over five hundred journal entries in my death journal, 197 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,799 and then I shared that with a group of friends 198 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:23,559 of mine and they said, Adam, you got to just 199 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,200 publish this. Publish your death journal so people know all 200 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,559 the different ways that people die and and and what 201 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:35,200 you learn, and that there's so much beauty that happens, 202 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,879 and there's so much terror and anger and grief and 203 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:43,320 anguish and liberation and release. So much happens in the 204 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,279 moments before and after death that I thought, Okay, let me, 205 00:12:47,919 --> 00:12:50,559 let me capture this, and and then it it led 206 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,759 to the book Love Does Not Know Death. 207 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: Fantastic. With some of the cases that you talk about 208 00:12:59,279 --> 00:13:01,000 in the book, or maybe some of the others that 209 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:03,919 didn't make this book, it sounds like you have enough 210 00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:08,840 for a couple of volumes. There's a lot of times 211 00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:13,759 when people are close to death, they start seeing and 212 00:13:13,879 --> 00:13:18,240 hearing things that we don't and a lot of times 213 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:24,240 people are chalking that up to dementia or drugs that 214 00:13:24,399 --> 00:13:29,360 they're on or whatnot. My own father, who passed eighteen 215 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,600 years ago, the last couple of days, he was seeing 216 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,759 people that he knew in the room. He had severe 217 00:13:38,799 --> 00:13:42,879 Parkinson's and dementia, but he was seeing these things before 218 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,919 he passed the congestive heart failure. So was he really 219 00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:52,399 seeing people? That's up for debate, but it happens with 220 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:56,120 a lot of people. Is it those neurons firing just 221 00:13:56,159 --> 00:13:58,600 before death or is it something else? 222 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,279 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, that's a great question. And this is probably 223 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:10,720 where I might get in the most trouble but most physicians, 224 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,399 and that is changing now. But I'd say that the 225 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,559 default worldview of Western medicine is that who you are 226 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:28,440 is a complex biochemical machine, this thing, and consciousness or 227 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:34,240 awareness is a byproduct of your neurons talking to each 228 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,200 other and firing, and that if the brain dies or 229 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:48,559 shuts down, then consciousness itself disappears. That never rang true 230 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:54,360 to me. And after having been practicing for several years 231 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,679 now in the ICU, I've seen stories and heard stories 232 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:06,440 that make me more convinced than ever that consciousness does 233 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,320 in fact continue on after the death of the physical body. 234 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,559 I would there's so many resources now that are being built, 235 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:17,480 the books that are being talked about. The near death 236 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:24,080 literature is exploding, just the anecdotes, the stories, hundreds of 237 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,519 thousands of stories indicating something in fact does continue on. 238 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,960 And I think if you if you pull the average 239 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,080 American or the average human being around the world. I 240 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,279 would say most people believe that consciousness does in fact 241 00:15:42,279 --> 00:15:45,000 go on, that there is some form of afterlife. Now 242 00:15:45,039 --> 00:15:47,519 we have different beliefs about what that might look like, 243 00:15:47,559 --> 00:15:50,039 but I would say most people feel that there is 244 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,759 an afterlife. But in the western scientific world, that's not 245 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:01,519 the case. In my experience, I've had paid I've had 246 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:05,759 a gentleman have a heart attack, pronounced dead by me 247 00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:12,320 with EG that means brainwave of electrical brain of activity. 248 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,440 That that was isoelectric, meaning flat, no brain we of 249 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,919 activity come back. His heart starts up again, only to 250 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,039 tell me and describe a story of meeting many many 251 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:32,000 people that have since passed on and then and then 252 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:35,960 have to come back to his body. And the interesting 253 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,600 thing is, and this is not an isolated incidence. There's 254 00:16:38,639 --> 00:16:45,159 many cases of this. If you if you're visually seeing things, 255 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,399 at least when you're in a body, your occipital lobes, 256 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,679 the part of your brain that processes visual input, will 257 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,919 light up. It will show that it's it's processing information. 258 00:16:57,799 --> 00:17:01,000 And he saw a whole bunch of things in this 259 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:06,440 period of being dead, and yet nothing showed up on 260 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,440 his EEG. I know there are other doctors who are 261 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,799 talking about this. I think we're on the early early 262 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,119 stages of a shift in worldview within the sciences where 263 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,400 we're going to start to acknowledge there is something else 264 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:27,799 happening that we haven't been able to quantify. But I 265 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,480 will say if you had asked me twenty thirty years 266 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,920 ago what the general perspective of other physicians is, I 267 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,359 would say almost everyone believes that we're just the meat suit. 268 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,799 But more and more physicians that I talked to actually 269 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,799 are starting to consider that consciousness does in fact exist 270 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,440 independent of the physical body. 271 00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: And that's great because before now you're right, it's just 272 00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:59,039 science with science, and they didn't want to hear anything 273 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:04,400 that contradicted what they thought of with science, as if 274 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,400 we even though we're in the twenty first century, we 275 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:11,599 think that, oh, we are on the edge, cutting edge. 276 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,839 We have sciences just progress so much, and we know 277 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,559 so much, and I personally don't think we know nearly 278 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,480 as much as we think we do, and there's more 279 00:18:23,599 --> 00:18:30,039 out there, especially when you start looking at religion is religion, 280 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:37,519 but spiritual experiences are very unique, and people could have 281 00:18:37,759 --> 00:18:41,880 a spiritual experience like a near death experience, and it 282 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:47,799 could be along religious lines and others. It's totally unexpected 283 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,319 what the experience. And lately I've been really listening to 284 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,960 a lot of podcasts with near death experiencers because the 285 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,960 subject fascinates me. I do definitely believe in that, but 286 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,400 I want to hear other people's stories. I mean, I've 287 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,559 gone through surgeries, I've been you know, under anesthesia. I 288 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,559 never saw anything, so of course I didn't die on 289 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:19,039 the table either, but it's it's really fascinating what's there. 290 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,160 And I think we're reaching that stage, as you mentioned, 291 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:28,279 where it's starting to be more acceptable to accept that 292 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,000 the two are can exist at the same time. 293 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And if you really look at the near 294 00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:39,000 death literature and the stories even on just YouTube, what 295 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,079 I notice whenever I do that is I feel touched. 296 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:49,640 I feel transformed. I feel greater love for myself for 297 00:19:49,799 --> 00:19:53,839 those around me. I start to appreciate life more. There's 298 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:57,000 a sense of meaning and purpose that I start I have, 299 00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:03,480 and the vast majority of near death experiencers they report 300 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:11,039 feeling transformed, like deeply, deeply transformed. They feel held and 301 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:14,440 cared for, they feel like there's there is some presence 302 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:18,480 watching out for them, guiding them, guiding their life, and 303 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,839 and generally they I feel they become kinder people, nicer people, 304 00:20:24,039 --> 00:20:28,200 compassionate people. That and I think that's what happens when 305 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,160 you shift your identity from just being the body to 306 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,400 recognizing that you're something so much more that life and 307 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,759 love don't know death, They keep they keep going it. 308 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:46,000 It helps you become a kinder person. And and that's 309 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,960 as I really started to dive into this literature and 310 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:53,160 doing my studies and my research, I realized that's what's happening. 311 00:20:53,559 --> 00:20:58,839 We become kinder people. It doesn't if you have beliefs 312 00:20:58,839 --> 00:21:03,119 in the afterlife. I mean, many people have beliefs in 313 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,279 the actual life, but it doesn't make them good human beings. 314 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:09,039 It doesn't make them kind people. But when you when 315 00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:11,079 you have that sense of love, when you have that 316 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:14,359 sense of oh, this is this is what I'm here 317 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,960 to learn. This is the classroom, which a lot a 318 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,599 lot of near death experiences report. And if and if 319 00:21:20,599 --> 00:21:23,839 you realize we're all in the same classroom, we're all learning. 320 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,880 Why not help each other, Why not help everyone get 321 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,400 a's so to speak. You know, there's no there's no 322 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:33,799 curve in this classroom, we don't we don't have to 323 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,839 segregate ourselves. We can help each other. So I actually 324 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:42,759 end my book with a chapter I think. I think 325 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:45,240 the chapter title is be Kind, because that's it. It 326 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:48,640 ultimately boils down to that if you're if you consider 327 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,680 yourself a spiritual person, but you're not kind, you're not 328 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:55,000 doing it right. There's there's spirituality will bring you to 329 00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:56,160 kindness and compassion. 330 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: A lot of a lot of that, I think is 331 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,960 it's the nature versus nurture argument, where depending on a 332 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,440 person's home life, how they grew up, whether it was 333 00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,960 let's say, in a religious family or you know, instilled 334 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,359 with certain cultural beliefs, and they can they a person 335 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,480 can act on those, or a person could be a 336 00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:27,559 little bit more aware and start realizing and seeing the 337 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,160 lessons and become that kind of person. I think too 338 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:37,480 many people fall into the trap of physical, physical pleasures, 339 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:44,559 physical power, physical sensations, and thinking that even if they're religious, 340 00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:48,359 even if they have beliefs, they still are not nice 341 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,720 people because in some way they're either lashing out or 342 00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:58,039 they're holding on to that low vibrational negative trauma or 343 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,839 outlook that again might have been impressed on them when 344 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,839 they were younger, growing up. There's a lot of factors 345 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:06,880 that can come into it. 346 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Actually, what you just said is one of 347 00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:16,799 the avenues that I think we can use to practice 348 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:22,319 a really deep level of forgiveness. I talk a lot 349 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,920 about it in the book because I feel like when 350 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,960 people are facing death their own or a loved one, 351 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,559 inevitably what happens is a lot from the past comes up, 352 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,200 a lot of unhealed hurt and pain. Families that were 353 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,720 distanced from each other, estranged, they're often forced to see 354 00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:47,680 each other again when the father or the mother is dying, 355 00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:51,920 and when they come together, anything that hasn't been healed 356 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,839 just comes right up to the surface. And I feel 357 00:23:54,839 --> 00:24:02,279 like forgiveness is such a huge gift to yourself if 358 00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:05,400 you know how to do it. And so one of 359 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,200 the first ways in is well, I should talk a 360 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,599 little bit about the deeper meaning of true forgiveness. But 361 00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:18,000 what I want to share first is if someone did 362 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,960 something wrong to you and you can see through the 363 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:27,000 negative action and see them as a child, see them 364 00:24:28,039 --> 00:24:31,319 in see all the trauma that they went through, all 365 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,400 the pain, the abuse, all of the belief systems and 366 00:24:35,559 --> 00:24:39,480 potential brainwashing and cultural indoctrination that they got from the media, 367 00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:43,720 from their family, from friends. Who knows that has turned 368 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:49,680 them into who they are now, and recognize that their 369 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,920 behavior is a product of that, and then you don't 370 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,519 take it as personally. Then you realize, oh, what they're 371 00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:58,880 telling me, what they're saying, the way they're behaving, it's 372 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,880 not personal, a reflection of everything that they've been through. 373 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:08,359 Now we'll say something. Forgiving someone doesn't mean you're saying 374 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,279 what they did was right. It doesn't mean what you're 375 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:17,680 saying what they did to you is okay. You can 376 00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:21,240 forgive someone and never talk to them again. You can 377 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:23,640 place those boundaries. You can tell them what they did 378 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,039 was absolutely inappropriate, wrong, if it's necessary to take legal action. 379 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:32,519 I'm saying, like, the actions that you take in the 380 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:37,200 world is distinct from what's happening inside, in the mind 381 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,799 and in the heart. And the reason why I like 382 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,599 to say that forgiveness is a gift that you give 383 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,680 yourself is because there's such a burden when you are 384 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,279 resentful towards someone, when you hate someone, when you judge them, 385 00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:53,640 when you hold grievances, and you carry that with you 386 00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:59,359 for years. It is such a burden. And if you forgive, 387 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,519 if you can see through to the innocence of the 388 00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,960 other person, and if you can somehow recognize a similarity. 389 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,599 Maybe it's that we're all human beings. Maybe it's that 390 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,359 we all face struggle when we grow up some way 391 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,480 to connect at a deep level to the other person. 392 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:21,559 Then you're able to drop that burden. You're able to 393 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:26,160 let it go. And for me, part of what drove 394 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,319 me to write this book is I would see some 395 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,160 families do this unconsciously, maybe they did it consciously. They 396 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,240 would use the opportunity of impending death their own or 397 00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:45,119 their loved one to resolve those grievances, to let things go, 398 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,119 to finally decide to forgive and give themselves the permission 399 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,200 of living life without the burden of judgment. And then 400 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,119 I've seen family members who don't do that, and they 401 00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:03,400 fight to the bitter end. There's terror and shame and 402 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,359 betrayal and anger and rage to the very very bitter 403 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,519 end and then beyond. And then I thought, you know 404 00:27:11,559 --> 00:27:15,559 what allows some families to turn death into a moment 405 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:20,400 of healing and others not. Let me share the stories, 406 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,160 let me capture it and then allow the reader to 407 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,039 learn from that. 408 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:31,799 Speaker 1: Sure, sure what people don't realize unless they've experienced it. 409 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,839 Holding on the negativity and negative thoughts, it just drags 410 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,319 you down. It drags you down, makes you miserable or 411 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,559 at least have a negative outlook towards life and not 412 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:52,079 trusting people. And I'll tell a little story. I had 413 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,920 someone in my life about twenty five years ago who 414 00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:01,680 really did a lot to me, and I didn't realize 415 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,759 how bad it was until years later. And I held 416 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,640 such resentment towards this person. I didn't even want to 417 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,319 speak their name. I wanted nothing to do with them. 418 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,000 Some mutual friends were still friends with this person, and 419 00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,400 I would run into them once in a while and 420 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,039 I was just I wanted nothing to do with them. 421 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,720 And this person wound up passing away about six years ago, 422 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,039 and even at that time, I still had negative feelings 423 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,880 towards them. But as I've been going on my own 424 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,960 spiritual journey, I realized I had to let it go. 425 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,960 I had to there's no sense in continuing to be angry. 426 00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,240 What happened happened, and I had to admit to myself 427 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:51,720 it was a learning experience I did learn so much 428 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,799 out of that, and even though this person passed, I 429 00:28:55,839 --> 00:29:00,799 still forgave them. And does that mean, you know, if 430 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:02,960 they were still here, i'd allow it to happen again. 431 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:07,200 Absolutely not, and I probably wouldn't have any contact with them. 432 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,720 But I had to let that go in my heart 433 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:14,880 to just say I forgive you. You did what you did, 434 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,160 but I'm not going to hold it against you anymore 435 00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:20,559 and move on with my life. And I have felt 436 00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:22,200 so much lighter since then. 437 00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: Wow, you nailed it. That's exactly it. That's so thank you. 438 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,759 You could have I could have said it better. We 439 00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:33,160 all go through moments like that, and maybe that's something 440 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,160 we should all consider that as human beings, no matter 441 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,319 what country you're in, no matter what religion you practice, 442 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,039 we are human beings that suffer. We suffer in very 443 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:48,440 unique ways that it's so diverse, but in the end, 444 00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,680 like the pain is the same, the struggle is the same. 445 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,319 Now some people it's worse than others, but you're right, 446 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,039 we can learn from it, we can grow from it. 447 00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:01,599 We become who we are now, resilient and strong and 448 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:08,400 powerful because of those traumas in the past. And it 449 00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:13,720 takes a willingness. Sometimes the teeniest amount of willingness will 450 00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:17,680 start the ball rolling. Maybe it's just a consideration of 451 00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:20,200 maybe at some point later in my life, I will 452 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,400 be at a place where I could forgive that person. 453 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,960 And I like that you use the word let go 454 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:31,680 because forgiveness can be can trigger people that the word forgiveness, 455 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,480 but you can replace it with letting go. And the key, 456 00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,880 as you said, is it doesn't mean you do anything different. 457 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000 At the level of form and action. You can still 458 00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:47,079 place those boundaries, but it's about going inside. Can you 459 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,000 let go in here? 460 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: Well, one other thing what taught me in that situation 461 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,480 is I know of people throughout my life I have 462 00:30:57,559 --> 00:31:03,160 wronged and I always felt guilty about it. And then 463 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:06,000 just a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity 464 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,640 to reconnect with a lot of people in my past 465 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,400 where I realized I was a jerk. I did not 466 00:31:13,519 --> 00:31:17,359 handle things the way I should have, and I really 467 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:19,400 felt bad for what I did. So when I reached 468 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,079 out to these people, I would apologize to them to 469 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,400 make amends, and I would say ninety percent of the time, 470 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,759 none of them ever remembered it, but I did, and 471 00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:37,359 because I did, it was still me letting go, apologizing, 472 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,839 getting it out there in the open air. And you know, 473 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,240 whether you know, I didn't really need to receive forgiveness 474 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,279 for it. I just needed to say I'm sorry. And 475 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,759 I think that the people appreciated that, even if they 476 00:31:54,799 --> 00:32:00,359 didn't remember. But I just reached this point my life 477 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,039 where I just wanted to make amends with everyone and 478 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,559 try to move forward with the rest of my life. 479 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,559 Speaker 2: Uh, to not do that, Yeah, that's great. Forgiving oneself 480 00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:14,319 is a is a whole other ballgame, and it's it 481 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,599 can be a lot harder. It's because we're harder on 482 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,839 ourselves most of the time. We because we see everything 483 00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,960 on the inside. We know what we intended, we know 484 00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:28,160 what we were feeling. So but it sounds like you 485 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440 were able to do that. There was one thing I 486 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,079 was going to share, just to dive a little bit 487 00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:36,839 deeper into forgiveness or letting go, however you want to 488 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,519 use that term. One. There's one level of forgiveness that 489 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,240 is I would say the world's description of forgiveness and 490 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,599 and it's it's not what I'm talking about. The world's 491 00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:53,200 forgiveness says you did something wrong. I'm the better person. 492 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,319 I'm better than you, and because I'm better than you spiritually, 493 00:32:57,799 --> 00:33:00,799 I'm gonna I'm gonna let this slide. I'm gonna I'm 494 00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:04,960 gonna forgive you. And that's sort of like a false charity, 495 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,720 you know, That's not the forgiveness I'm talking about. There's 496 00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:16,279 a deeper level of forgiveness that cuts through, or sees 497 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,480 through the appearance of wrongness. Someone does something wrong, or 498 00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:27,119 you do something wrong. That's the surface level. Deep forgiveness 499 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,559 goes through that and goes to the core of who 500 00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:32,640 that person was, and then you see the story everything 501 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,319 that led to that behavior, and then it goes even 502 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,799 deeper and further to the nature of who they are. 503 00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:42,400 And this is where what you and I talked about 504 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,119 at the beginning comes to play. If who our nature 505 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:52,000 is is consciousness and even deeper you could say, pure awareness, 506 00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,599 It's not like there are little buckets of consciousness. There's 507 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:02,039 only one consciousness. There's only one ground of awareness. And 508 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:06,640 the deeper you go, the more you realize separation is 509 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:13,159 an illusion. There's just oneness, this raw pure awareness that 510 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,440 we are. And I would add to that the word innocence. 511 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,400 There is no sin in pure awareness. There's no guilt 512 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,920 in pure awareness. It's the ground of being. And if 513 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,679 we can go to the core of someone that we 514 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,679 think has wronged us and see that innocence and recognize 515 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,280 that it's the same innocence in us, there's this instant 516 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,440 sense of deep, profound connection with the other person. So 517 00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:43,079 you forgive the other person not because they've done something 518 00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:45,960 wrong and you're the better person. You forgive them because 519 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,800 you see at the core of their being they are innocent, 520 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:51,679 and at the core of your being your innocent, and 521 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000 so really there's nothing to forgive because all there is 522 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,239 is innocence. That's a very deep level of forgiveness that 523 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,800 is I think most but it's something we can strive towards. 524 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,119 Speaker 1: When you mentioned about those people who could they forgive, 525 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,599 but they're kind of lording it over the person that 526 00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:14,559 I'm a better person than you, No, they're not, because 527 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:18,639 to have that kind of mindset is negative. You're putting 528 00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:22,800 yourself over somebody else. You're not really forgiving them, You're 529 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,360 patting yourself on the back for something that you've done. 530 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,239 There's also the people who can't forgive themselves and can't 531 00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:38,800 love themselves, And I'm one of those people. For the 532 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,840 longest time, since I was a child, I beat myself 533 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,920 up constantly, and it's only been in the last couple 534 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,519 of years that I've been able to accept myself, love myself, 535 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,880 and move forward. And it's so freeing. But people who 536 00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:01,519 hold onto the past, hold onto the negativity, and it 537 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,159 just it's a cycle that just continues over and over 538 00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:08,320 and over again because they can't learn to forgive themselves. 539 00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:12,599 They can't learn to let it go, like letting it 540 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:16,039 go when somebody else has wronged you. So they beat 541 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:20,719 themselves up, They get into drugs or alcohol abuse, they 542 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,480 get into these really self destructive patterns because they can't 543 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,000 love themselves and forgive themselves. 544 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, I'm so happy we're talking about this, because oftentimes, 545 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:38,760 because the book is about death, we end up talking 546 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,159 about after life things. But this is the core, this 547 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,360 is the main message of the book, which is our 548 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,239 life is meant to be a life of healing. It's 549 00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:51,599 it's as you said, it's a classroom where we're learning 550 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:58,360 the course that these lessons. The interesting thing about self forgiveness, 551 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,840 I'll say, no one can punish you better than yourself. 552 00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:07,719 We are so good at punishing ourselves and we do 553 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,360 it for so long years are are, you know, for 554 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:18,360 a whole life sometimes and it's because there's this deep, 555 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,920 deep belief. We believe we have sinned, We believe we've 556 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,199 done something wrong, and we don't deserve forgiveness. We deserve punishment, 557 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,199 and it will go as far as it can or 558 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,400 needs to for the the ego, that part of us 559 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,400 that believes that we're alone and separate and unworthy to 560 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:47,559 feel justified. Now, you said earlier that you know that 561 00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:51,559 that type of worldly forgiveness lording it over over someone 562 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,800 is negative. I would say it's also negative to punish 563 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,440 yourself because you believe that you are inherently a guilty, 564 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,239 sinful person. People will do it, like you said, with 565 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:12,920 drugs or alcohol or depriving themselves of things. Sometimes it's 566 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:19,280 a silent suffering, a silent punishment. But the gateway out 567 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,079 of it. First, I always start with there needs to 568 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:25,039 be a willingness, a willingness to see differently, a willingness 569 00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,559 to shift your perspective. All you got to do is 570 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:31,639 tell yourself I'm willing And generally what happens is the 571 00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:36,920 suffering gets so bad that you realize something's got to change, 572 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:40,480 and then the willingness comes, and then after the willingness 573 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,039 comes the tools and the path to healing. And that 574 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,159 part of what is in my book, but it's not 575 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,400 just in my book. There's many other books that talk 576 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,039 about this is the willingness to see that there is 577 00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:56,000 a part of you that is innocent. That's the part 578 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,599 you got to see, that part of you that did 579 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,519 its best with what you knew well, and that's all 580 00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:05,639 we're ever doing. We're always doing the best that we 581 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,800 can with what we know. And if we can get 582 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,679 to the core of that and see even if it's 583 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:12,559 the sliver of it, sliver of innocence, that's the beginning 584 00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:13,000 of healing. 585 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,679 Speaker 1: And with that, in going back to forgiveness, can you 586 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:23,599 really forgive somebody else if you won't forgive yourself, You 587 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,559 need to be able to forgive yourself and then be 588 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,159 able to forgive others so that you're coming more from 589 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:36,159 a place of positivity and that your load is lightened 590 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,000 and you feel better. And then you talk to that 591 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:42,440 person or even silently in your head. You know you 592 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,119 may not need to confront them, but you let it go. 593 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,199 You say, I forgive you, and I don't think that 594 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,360 could really happen until you've reached a point where you 595 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:51,400 can forgive yourself. 596 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 2: You are naming something that I think is not talked 597 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,719 about enough. But it's like, there's a mirror like quality 598 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,880 to the world, to the to the universe. The way 599 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:08,719 you see someone else deeply is mirrors how you see yourself, 600 00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:11,360 and then the way you see yourself mirrors how you 601 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,599 see others. There's an interesting story that happened, and I 602 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,199 allude to it in the in the book, but the 603 00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:23,239 longer story behind it is there was a surgeon that 604 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,119 was very, very difficult to deal with early on in 605 00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:33,719 my career, and he was very antagonistic, very angry most 606 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,559 of the time. Whenever he would do a surgery and 607 00:40:36,599 --> 00:40:38,760 the patient would come up to his ICU, he would 608 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,039 bark orders and tell the nurses and other physicians exactly 609 00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:44,840 what they need to do and how, and if anything 610 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,679 went wrong it was our fault and not his. Very intense, 611 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,079 hard to work with, and I remember I was so 612 00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:55,519 triggered by him, and I just thought like, gosh, what 613 00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:58,639 what what a rough person to be with, you know, 614 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,039 and I would, uh, yeah, it was. It was those 615 00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:06,480 were rough days when he was in the ICU and 616 00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:10,000 then later on uh not related to him, but I 617 00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:13,960 had a patient come in beautiful young woman who had 618 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,280 a respiratory disorder of her lungs ended up dying, and 619 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,719 I felt so much guilt around her death because I 620 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,199 thought I had done maybe there was something I could 621 00:41:26,199 --> 00:41:30,360 have done differently to save her life. And I was 622 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,719 able to get to a point in the days after 623 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,360 her death to really deeply forgive myself and realize, no, 624 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,559 adam you you really did everything you could with what 625 00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:44,320 you knew about her at the time, and I could 626 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,920 get to that innocence of who I was to see 627 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:54,000 that I really was an innocent boy who did what 628 00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:56,440 he the best he could with what he knew, and 629 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,199 that she died because it was her time and I 630 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,960 was honest. I was a first person. I would be 631 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,440 the first person to catch if I had made a mistake, 632 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,079 and maybe there were things I could have done differently, 633 00:42:09,199 --> 00:42:12,519 but in the moment, I did what I could do. 634 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: Best. 635 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 2: Now how it relates to the surgeon is days after 636 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,280 I had forgiven myself and I could see the innocence 637 00:42:23,519 --> 00:42:30,199 underneath the mistake. I started to recognize that I wasn't 638 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:35,440 triggered by the surgeon anymore. It was a very interesting phenomenon. 639 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,559 He would still behave the same way, still bark orders, 640 00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:41,960 still be angry, but it's like they would just washed 641 00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:47,079 through me. I didn't take anything personally, and I realized, Oh, yeah, 642 00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:50,239 he's just being who he is because that's what he knows, 643 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,800 that's how he was raised, that's how he was taught. 644 00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:58,480 Nothing was taken personally. And my intuition was that it 645 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,800 was deeply connected to my own self forgiveness. Because I 646 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,000 could forgive myself, I was able to see through what 647 00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:09,239 he was doing and how he was behaving. It wasn't 648 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,880 even a one to one connection. I just started to 649 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:17,800 see others more likely. And I feel like the more 650 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,480 we are able to figure forgive ourselves, the less the 651 00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:24,840 world triggers us, the less others will bother us. And 652 00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:27,599 it's vice versa. There's that mirror like quality. 653 00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:33,559 Speaker 1: I'm smiling because that's absolutely right, especially in my case. 654 00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:39,840 I totally agree one thousand percent. It's you forgive yourself, 655 00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:44,199 things become a lot easier. Even when more problems come up, 656 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,960 or if you screw up and do something, you take 657 00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:52,800 it more as a learning experience. Okay, this is how 658 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,719 I handled it. I did not handle it well. I'm 659 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,440 learning from this and I'm moving forward and I won't 660 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,480 do it again. And I think that's also part of 661 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,639 the purpose of this life, is to learn and grow 662 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,719 and become the best version of yourself you can be. 663 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,000 I don't want to say a better person, because that's 664 00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:18,840 very subjective, but being the best version of yourself in 665 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,840 this lifetime and learning from those mistakes, and it makes 666 00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:28,320 moving forward a lot easier. Even when things are crazy, 667 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,360 you don't like things that are going on, you just 668 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,039 just let it, let it roll off you. 669 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:40,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I have a friend who's retired marine, 670 00:44:41,039 --> 00:44:45,880 and he was sharing with me that he after after 671 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,239 he finished his time at the Marine Corps, it was 672 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,920 so much he had guilt over and he made a 673 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,880 decision to himself that he the the intensity that he 674 00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,360 applied in the Marines of getting things done, like when 675 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,800 they had a job, nothing mattered, they would get it 676 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:10,159 done at every resource emotional, mental, physical, would be marshaled 677 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,480 to ensure that this mission was accomplished, He said, he 678 00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:20,159 applied the same intensity to what he called radical self forgiveness. 679 00:45:21,039 --> 00:45:25,280 He basically put the intensity of his work into making 680 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,559 sure he forgave himself, and every time a guilt would 681 00:45:28,559 --> 00:45:31,639 come up in the years after, he would he would 682 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:34,280 like get laser focused and he would just go to 683 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,079 the core of the issue and he would forgive himself. 684 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:40,920 And I was so impressed. I don't think I approached 685 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,519 my forgiveness with that level of intensity, but I probably 686 00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:46,840 should if we all did just a percentage of that 687 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,480 and treated it as as important as getting up and 688 00:45:51,519 --> 00:45:54,320 going to work each day, because that's how we get paid, 689 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,239 that's how we put food on the table. If we 690 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:02,440 treated self forgiveness with that level of intensity, we would 691 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,159 see great, great healing. 692 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: That is so profound. I absolutely agree with that. I 693 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,599 was wondering if we could go over We've got about 694 00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:15,480 fifteen minutes left in the show, if we could talk 695 00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:19,159 a couple about a couple of stories that you mentioned 696 00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:23,400 in the book or otherwise about these experiences with people dying. 697 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Well, one that comes to mind has 698 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,199 to do well. I'll share the story a young It 699 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,199 was a young boy. I was in Tucson at the time. 700 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,000 I was working in Arizona and we had a multi 701 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:46,440 vehicle pile up. It was a lot of a huge 702 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,400 crash and he was the only survivor. Initially of the crash, 703 00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:54,159 paramedics called told us that they were coming in hot 704 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:59,519 with the trauma. I was in the trauma bay anticipating 705 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,519 the The young kid comes in. He's on a stretcher. 706 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:11,639 There's a female paramedic straddled over him like doing chest compressions. 707 00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,639 Nurses are coming. They're immediately trying to get ivy lines in. 708 00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:19,840 Another paramedic is just ripping his jeans and his clothes 709 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,519 off with scissors. All of it is part for the 710 00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:25,280 course for a trauma. They welam into the trauma bay 711 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,559 and the er physician and I tag team to run 712 00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:33,360 the code. Running a code a code blue is when 713 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,400 someone's heart has stopped. Running a code essentially means you're 714 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,039 at the foot of the bed and you help assign 715 00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:46,440 roles to everyone and you ensure that the process goes 716 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:49,000 very smoothly. So the first few minutes it was the 717 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,079 er doc, but because we were so busy, the er 718 00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:53,920 doc stepped away and I took over. So I was 719 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:55,920 at the foot of the bed. Here's this kid in 720 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,119 front of me. I have a respiratory therapist placing a 721 00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:03,760 breathing tube through his throat. He had a massive gash 722 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,199 through his chest where his chest. This might be TMI 723 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:08,760 for your listeners. 724 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: That's okay, it's fine. 725 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 2: I'll minimize the gore then. Suffice it to say the 726 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,719 scene was very, very bloody and chaotic. And what was 727 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,400 interesting though, was after we had assigned roles and we 728 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,000 were pausing every two minutes checking for a pulse, doing 729 00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:32,800 chest compressions, giving medications, we got into a rhythm and 730 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,239 a flow and the chaos of the room sort of 731 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,880 died down. It was a little bit quieter, and everyone 732 00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:41,559 was just doing their duty, you know, pushing medications, doing 733 00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:44,239 chest compressions, checking for a pulse, pausing like we would 734 00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:49,000 just go through our cycles. While that was happening, we 735 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,800 were maybe twenty minutes in. I got this sense of 736 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,800 someone behind me into my right and I thought it 737 00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,920 was the ed physician. At first, I kind of looked 738 00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:03,039 over to assuming he was like walking up to tell 739 00:49:03,039 --> 00:49:08,199 me something, but there was no one there, and I 740 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,119 looked back and I really felt the presence, and this 741 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,480 sort of interesting thing happened. I got the intuitive knowing 742 00:49:17,559 --> 00:49:20,280 that it was the boy standing next to me. 743 00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:23,159 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say that yeah. 744 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,880 Speaker 2: And it's funny, like I could feel like it was 745 00:49:26,159 --> 00:49:30,280 a masculine presence. I could even see his face in 746 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,599 my mind's eye. It was weird. And I should preface 747 00:49:34,639 --> 00:49:38,039 this by saying, I'm not psychic. I've never been trained. 748 00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:41,559 I don't have any exposure to that. This is just 749 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,480 These are the stories of what I felt when I 750 00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:48,960 was there. There's this kid next to me who's you know, 751 00:49:49,039 --> 00:49:51,119 his body is there. I feel him right next to me, 752 00:49:51,679 --> 00:49:55,039 and there's a weird thing. I could hear him asking 753 00:49:55,039 --> 00:49:59,079 a question, but it wasn't audible. It was in my head, 754 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,960 but it didn't feel like my voice. It felt like his. 755 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:05,480 It's hard to describe. I don't even know if I'm 756 00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:09,679 doing this justice, but I hear him tell me, is 757 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:15,039 that me? And he was looking at the body, and 758 00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:18,639 I'm looking at the body too, and I sort of 759 00:50:18,679 --> 00:50:23,039 tell him in my head, that's your body. It's not you, 760 00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:26,840 that's your body. So I wanted to make the distinction 761 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:32,559 for him. And the interesting thing was he wasn't worried 762 00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:36,119 or afraid. The emotional feeling that I got from him 763 00:50:36,199 --> 00:50:40,159 was amusement, like, oh, how interesting, interesting that that's my body, 764 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,599 you know, like sort of uh, like you're like you're 765 00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:50,760 watching something and like a movie or something. And what 766 00:50:51,039 --> 00:50:56,079 happened after was was really interesting. As soon as I said, yeah, 767 00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:00,719 that's your body, it felt like the scene, the entire 768 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,840 scene of his body and the nurses and the therapists 769 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,760 became like a thin film, like like the film that 770 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,920 you that a projector will shine light through, you know, 771 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,599 like a movie film. And I felt like I was 772 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:20,320 diving through the film and I was entering an ocean. 773 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,360 The mental image that I had that that appeared to 774 00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:29,320 me was that beneath the film was a vast ocean, 775 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,079 and I could see the rippling waves and it's almost 776 00:51:33,159 --> 00:51:34,800 like you know how when you go out to the 777 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,719 beach on a on a beautiful sunny day and you 778 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,639 see the sun sort of like reflect and it creates 779 00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,559 like sparkles on the on the ripples of the waves. 780 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,039 That's what I felt like. I was seeing this like 781 00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:53,639 sparkly ocean vastness, and and I got the intuition of like, oh, 782 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:59,119 that's this boy's soul. That was the intuition like this 783 00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:06,920 this boy, this is his brilliant, beautiful, vast nature underneath 784 00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:09,719 the film of the body. It's like the body was 785 00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,199 the most superficial layer of who he was, but here 786 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:18,719 he was in his in his you know, awesomeness, And 787 00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,039 then I felt like he was watching what I was watching. 788 00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:26,719 We were both going through this together, and I told him, 789 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,880 I think that's I think that's your soul. I think 790 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,880 that's who you are. And then what happened is I 791 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,760 felt like I dived through this ocean of light, and 792 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:46,880 underneath it was an absolutely profound, vast expanse of pure light, 793 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:52,440 like no ripples, no wave, no ocean, just an endless 794 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,320 expanse of light. And then my intuition was, Oh, that's 795 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,480 who we both really are. That's the that's the depth 796 00:53:01,559 --> 00:53:04,960 of all humanity, that's where we're all won. And I 797 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,800 remember telling him I was equally surprised because all of 798 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,440 this was happening in my field of vision. And I 799 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,800 told him, I think that's who we are, you and me, 800 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,800 both all of us, and he sort of smiled and 801 00:53:19,679 --> 00:53:22,559 like sort of nodded and acknowledged, and we both sat 802 00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:26,800 there or stood there watching this. It was mesmerizing. It 803 00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:31,119 was endless and so bright. I felt like it was 804 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,239 overlaid on what I was witnessing, and then I kind 805 00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,480 of rested there for a while, and by then we 806 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:44,159 were maybe forty minutes in something like that, and he 807 00:53:44,199 --> 00:53:46,679 had been progressing. His heart rate went from For those 808 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,000 who are listening and you have medical background, he transitioned 809 00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:55,000 from pea to v fib, course of v fib, then 810 00:53:55,039 --> 00:53:57,880 fine v fib ventricular fibrillation. We shocked him a couple 811 00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,760 of times no effect to asis, which is flat line, 812 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,679 and he basically was in flatline for the past ten 813 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,239 minutes every time we checked his pulse, and by forty 814 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,079 minutes we just well over forty minutes. We decided we 815 00:54:13,079 --> 00:54:16,920 were not getting him back, and so I asked everyone 816 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,039 if there was anyone that disagreed with calling it. Everyone 817 00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:23,079 said no, and so then we called it, and that 818 00:54:23,199 --> 00:54:27,320 was his time of death, and I still felt him 819 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:32,199 next to me. And after his time of death, I 820 00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:35,679 asked for a moment of silence, and I could see 821 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,840 him watching this with me, and he didn't say this, 822 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:46,000 but the emotional feeling that I got was he was like, hmm, cool, 823 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,800 and then he was gone. He just disappeared like that, 824 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,199 and there was no one next to me anymore. He 825 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,719 just vanished. It was such a surreal experience for me. 826 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,280 But what I got most, which is very I shared 827 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,039 because it was very healing for me, is this feeling 828 00:55:04,119 --> 00:55:07,679 of diving into who he really was and then discovering 829 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,599 who I really was Through all of that. 830 00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:17,599 Speaker 1: I have to admit I am stunned and astounded. That 831 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,320 is one of the most incredible stories that I've ever 832 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,559 heard of what I would call a shared death experience. 833 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,239 And the fact that you picked up on him and 834 00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:32,079 you don't have to be psychic or think yourself. Everybody 835 00:55:32,119 --> 00:55:36,159 has an ability to at some point to sense these things, 836 00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,280 and it was probably one of those things that you 837 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,199 were meant to experience. The fact that, again I've been 838 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,039 doing a lot of research into near death experiences, the 839 00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:51,119 dispassion that a person feels seeing their own body. They 840 00:55:51,199 --> 00:55:53,239 just look at it like, oh yeah, they have no 841 00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,480 emotional connection to it while they're out of it. The 842 00:55:56,559 --> 00:55:59,880 fact that he wasn't going back probably even added to 843 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,519 And there's no fear and but the rest of it. 844 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,800 I'm going to be thinking about this for a long time. 845 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,119 That has really struck a chord with me. 846 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, I Melissa, I had never heard 847 00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:17,280 the term shared death experience until after I started doing 848 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,199 interviews for the book. I didn't know that that was 849 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,719 a thing, but you're right. I think he was seeing 850 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,440 that and I was seeing what he was seeing. 851 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 1: Wow. Well we're going to end on that note that. 852 00:56:31,519 --> 00:56:33,920 I mean, it's phenomenal, But thank you so much for 853 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:38,599 sharing that. Now for your book, Love does Not Know Death, 854 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,159 Stories of Death, Dying and the Miracles of true Forgiveness. 855 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,880 Now where can people find that? 856 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:49,400 Speaker 2: That is on Amazon. I have a website Love does 857 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,840 Not Know Death dot com where you can sign up 858 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,840 for a newsletter newsletter. But the best way to stay 859 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,480 up to date with everything I'm doing is my sub 860 00:56:58,519 --> 00:57:02,639 stack adamz feed dot substack dot com. I call it 861 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:07,880 Adventures and Kindness and I basically write articles several times 862 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,440 a month sharing what I learned in the hospital and 863 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:11,239 what I learn in life. 864 00:57:12,039 --> 00:57:14,639 Speaker 1: Fantastic. Now you have a podcast, right. 865 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,920 Speaker 2: Oh that's right. Yes, it's a it's called Letters to 866 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,559 the Sky that I do with my best friend Stephen Downs. 867 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,800 It is for those who are really deep in the 868 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,840 spiritual path. Steven and I talk a lot about the 869 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,360 ins and outs of the spiritual path, almost very similar 870 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,679 to what you and I did today, Melissa, and and 871 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,400 it's like, once you realize that that's the classroom you're in, 872 00:57:41,719 --> 00:57:43,480 you want to learn the lessons you want and you 873 00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,639 want to do it well. And that's what we talk 874 00:57:45,679 --> 00:57:46,679 about in the podcast. 875 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:51,840 Speaker 1: Fantastic Well, Adam, this has been rivening. This is one 876 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,800 of the most eye opening interviews I've done in a while. 877 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,719 So thank you so much for coming on the show 878 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,039 and hopefully people will be picking up your book and 879 00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:02,679 read some more. 880 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,519 Speaker 2: Thank you all right, well, thank you for. 881 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: Being on the show. Wow, I'm gonna be very honest 882 00:58:15,719 --> 00:58:22,079 with you. I'm stunned and just overwhelmed with the entire interview. 883 00:58:23,519 --> 00:58:30,320 Probably people wanted to hear more about the death experiences 884 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,079 that Adam had to share, but I think we covered 885 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,079 so much that is so important for people to realize 886 00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:46,320 without being preachy. And but that last story I had 887 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,480 to wipe my eyes afterwards. I'm tearing up. It's so 888 00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:55,239 for profound and I hope you as the audience feel 889 00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,480 the same way that I did listening to it. So 890 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,480 I want to thank you Adam for coming on the show. 891 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:08,440 A wonderful interview. I'm very pleased and if he ever, 892 00:59:08,519 --> 00:59:10,840 if he writes another book, I'll have him back on Definitely. 893 00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:13,119 We'll talk a little bit more about some more of 894 00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:17,719 his stories next time. So until then, everyone, you have 895 00:59:18,039 --> 00:59:22,719 a wonderful week, and you all be good humans and 896 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:23,800 we will talk with you soon. 897 00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:24,400 Speaker 2: See you