Speaker 1: M m m m m.
Speaker 2: Hm hm.
Speaker 3: M m m m m hm. Yeah, you're hello, biggests,
biggas and nerds in the chat. We're live, we're live.
Sprung that one on you.
Speaker 4: You're trying to trying to catch me distant Hillary.
Speaker 3: So the crowd was Jay was uh over here waxing
poetic about how beautiful and brave and stunning Hillary Clinton is.
He was praising We're talking about Hillary hill dog we
call her. Did not look her in the Yeah, well,
we were talking about how cool.
Speaker 4: It is whatever. She's just like, that's so tight. That's
freaking baller dude. Hillary is a baller bro.
Speaker 3: It's just it's like, how we uh, we were just
talking about some of the people we look up to
as far as you know, the way that they treat
the people around them. I mean we everybody in the
chat here knows that if they were in person with me,
I would also tell them to look down, to look away,
to avert their gaze. I'm not trying. I'm not trying
to get energy vampired by all you freaking toxic people
in the chat. Are you toxic civilians and pedestrians in
the chat? Non e celebrities or not even e divas
like our guest, our guest, He's not even a guest anymore.
It's just he's just a staple. He's just he's my
my emotional support. Jay over here, my emotional support host
for the struggle session. Today, we're talking Dune, Dune, Frank
Herbert's Dune and uh dni Veneve. How do you even
say this guy's name that ven?
Speaker 4: Uh just intentionally always pronounce it wrong so that all
the nerds will correct you in the Dennis.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, we're gonna this is this is not going
to be a you know, seventeen minute hipster video.
Speaker 5: Video essay about how Dune went into our masterpieces peak cinema,
Denny Vnues masterful cinematic epic.
Speaker 3: Dean went into. Know this is not that. This is
a struggle session. You guys, we're talking. We got Jay
DIYer over here. We're gonna be talking deep stuff. We're
going deep. We're talking parapolitics, occult worldview, warfare, with with
with with Jay DIYer over He did a great breakdown
of some of this stuff a few weeks ago which
I just got to watch. I didn't want any spoilers,
which he didn't. He didn't give me any spoilers in
that video. But I love Jay's approach to kind of
comparing what we see happening in Dune with the uh,
you know, deep politics Game of Thrones. You know that
that we're just kind of lame now because of the series,
but you know, the the power struggles that go on
at the upperationlons of power in the structure of uh
kind of cosmic espionage that we see in the Dune films.
We're gonna do a full deep analysis today. Jase Jays
read the books. I've not read the books.
Speaker 4: So we have six books. I've read the first two.
Speaker 3: All right, he's read the first two books, which, from
what I've heard, from what I've gleaned, cover basically what
Dennis Villa ne you've.
Speaker 4: It's called it's it's pronounced un. I will leave this podcast.
I will leave this podcast.
Speaker 3: Do you think it's funny? Do you think that's what?
Do you think that's cute? Do you think it's cute
to just you're just dead name? Somebody just pronounce his
name wrong? Alright, how's the audio, guys? Let me make sure.
Sometimes I forget to check the stream and they remind
me how boomer my audio is. But I think I
think we're good. I don't see anybody complaining about the audio.
Speaker 4: It's a rarity.
Speaker 3: We did it with No, we have no boomer errors
in the beginning. Yeah, the only Boomer here, The only
Boomer here is young Boomer, the greatest rapper alive, one
of the only rappers left, one of the two of
the only rappers left, Young Boomer. Little aids here. You know,
you notice that neither of us has been caught up
in some kind of human trafficking scandal. You know, maybe
maybe some of the help that Jay's fired over the
years have lodged some complaints about how he doesn't let
them look him in the eyes, and how you know,
the various strange.
Speaker 4: People look down gonna get like a blinder, right, blinds
that kind of they have over their face so they
don't look me out.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, but I mean just normal stuff like that.
You might get complaints like that. You might get some
slander from some of some of the help that used
to work for me, particularly the my little uh my little,
my little New Zealand I call them my little Zealanders,
My my little, my little New Zealand. They're about four
foot eight pygmy ladies that have plucked my head before
these streams to get a nice and shiny as you
notice I got. I got some fuzz going on here.
I've lost I've lost a couple of employees lately. But
you you might hear some weird things from them.
Speaker 4: They're actually they're actually plucking out the hair implants that
you got. It's not actually plucking out the real hair,
that's the word.
Speaker 3: They're they're plucking out the hair so that the hair
so that the implants can be can be tried to.
We try again.
Speaker 4: They're actually plucking out your hair to make the implants
to stick back in. Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, they're saying that. They're I mean, here's the thing, guys,
here's the thing. The uh you know there's something ridiculously
here's the thing. The the doctor last time the implants
didn't take my body rejected. They rejected the locks. They're
they're saying that we need to get a racially we
need to get a match that that that will actually
be racially compatible with my head, with my skin.
Speaker 4: Appropriated.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so some call it appropriation. I call it.
Speaker 4: I call it.
Speaker 3: This is what you do when you get paid, When
you got that YouTube money, when you got that over
one hundred viewers, slightly over one hundred live viewers on
your YouTube stream, you get to you get to have
your head plucked by the help.
Speaker 4: People not watch the movies anymore. I don't understand. Nobody
cares about this movie. What's going on?
Speaker 3: We come, we come, We're not We're not like like
your channel over there, Jay, we got we don't. We
don't get as as much uh as many many folks
over here. But nowhere the spice will flow, We'll get
more live viewers. We're about quantity, not quality over here.
So the the quality of view the quality of viewers
very high. Yeah, kwanza, kwanza. So yeah, man, we got
we got the We've got the The Chad Book respector
versus the Virgin movie Enjoyer. We'll get two different perspectives.
I gotta say, I did really, I did really like
both of these films. I mean, I think, uh, you know,
there are a lot of complaints. I've heard a lot
of complaints. You know, Zendia ruined it. I get where
people are coming from with some of that stuff. Some
people upset with the Zendia the sick of see in
her face. But I don't know, I've got a little
bit of a different take, which I'll talk about later
on with that kind of stuff. But yeah, we've got
two movies here, Dune one June two, Part one, Part two. Uh.
These two parts apparently are telling the entire story from
the first Dune novel, which are our expert scholar Frank
Herbert Frank Herbert Junior Jay Dyer here has read. And yeah,
let's let's start out with the first one. Let's start
out with the first one. It does, unfortunately start out
with Zendia. You know, I was thinking we would get Yeah,
Zendiah's scowling face.
Speaker 4: Literally every scene she's got mad face. I watched it
again last night, and every scene is she's like.
Speaker 3: She smells something weird, she smells something peculiar. You know,
she's trying to figure out what that what that stink
is and gay. Yeah. Well, and and despite despite Zendiah
and Twinket, the Shallow Shallow, may you know there's not
the first one is pretty good. The first one is
pretty dang good. Uh. The plot, the the pacing of it,
the editing, and like visually, I think visually is what
most people are are raving about is just how visually
and and engaging this film is. You know, it's not
and it's not just visual, it's the audio as well.
It's kind of like a full sensory experience that they're
going here, going for here with both of h with
both of these films. So yeah, we've got We've got
Paula Trades, who's the the young Star is a starry
eyed young man with with the universe at his fingers,
the universe, yeah, and a uh and his mother is
His mother's a nang witch. His mother's a a Bena Jesuit.
The Benajesritz are kind of this order of manipulative occultic
them lord ladies who address.
Speaker 4: Like espionage handlers of the religious world who have a
kind of cult that have developed these techniques of mind
control and so forth that they use to help run
the universe from their bags. So they're they're one power faction.
You've got the in the novel that is not a
huge element of the movie. This movie, the Villain News version.
Speaker 3: Left out.
Speaker 4: Not much stress on the Trading Guild. The Trading Gill
plays a pretty important role in the books and you
have these weirdo guys who are kind of mutated from
being human into being like these giant, sort of vagina
looking creatures. Have you ever seen the David Lynch version.
I meant to ask you if you've seen.
Speaker 3: The David line. You know, I got about halfway through
the David Lynch version and I fell asleep. Not because
I hated it, but it's just I was so tired.
But I tried to watch it. I think I might
to try to watch it two times. I've seen select
scenes from it since then, but yeah, I've never been
able to get through the David.
Speaker 4: Lynchl So if you remember the beginning, right when the
guild Master comes to the the Emperor's Throne room, do
you remember that weird guy in the tank.
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So they played a key role as a power
faction representing kind of economics and the control of the
spice and the use of the spice.
Speaker 3: For like they're like they're like the Space bankers who
kind of.
Speaker 4: Kind of but they they're controlling commerce and travel. So
like you need this spy the Spacing Guild to fold space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they do that with they do that with
the spice. Spice minannge that spice milllege which is only
harvested on this single planet. There's one realm called Aracus
where the freemen live there. So Iracus Iracus is you know,
Herbert Frank Herbert was definitely thinking of you know, the
Middle East. The Middle East Wars is kind of around
the time of the rise of uh the Zion Estate.
So you have all these different religious factions within the
Middle East fighting for power over land resources, and of
course Herbert Frank Herbert being a yeah, seemingly like skeptical,
maybe not a full on nihilist, but more like a
classical liberal libertari in type. When you look at kind
of his what his worldview is. You know, I've heard him.
He's got a quote where he says, the government is
basically what are you? The Government's like a lie that
we agree upon, kind of like they basically he put
a little twist on the history as a lie agreed upon,
but he says, the government is this illusion that we
all pretend is real and we don't really need government.
So you know, he most definitely interjected that kind of anarchist.
Speaker 4: Well, he was a GOP speech writer, which is odd
because this is not what we think of as sci
fi writers. Typically, we think of sci fi people as
like these full on kind of hgu WEL's socialist utopians
where there's going to be you know, a kompod tech
future or whatever. And so the couple things that I
do appreciate about his future sci fi world is that
we don't have faking Galiens, no Galians here. There's a
ban on Ai. It kind of gets reinstated to a degree.
Spiele don't necessarily follow. But there's this period called the
Butlerian Jahad which happened prior to the events of Dune,
where Ai enslaved men. The whole universe was enslaved by Ai,
and this figure called u as Butler, he rose up
and said it's time to overthrow and ban Ai. So
that's just really odd out of place in terms of
science fiction novels. And as we were saying, with the
notion of the power struggles and the different factions, and
you've got the emperor, you've got the different houses sort
of noble houses. So it's an odd future where things
that we think would also be gone, like nobility in
an emperor in a you know, tech socialist utopia, rural
equal you know, ah u.
Speaker 3: L yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 4: I like these elements being unique to a future sci
fi world where it's not a bunch of the typical
socialist stuff.
Speaker 3: But totally totally Yeah, you're completely right, you know, it's
it's really refreshing to have, you know. And what's interesting
about this whole world is there's an assumed natural hierarchy
that's unavoidable, right, Like, even even in fiction, even in
the fiction world, you can't you can't conceive of a
world where there isn't natural hierarchy, where there isn't where
you know, marriage isn't you know, between a man and
a woman, and anything outside of those boundaries is something
that's destructive, which is regularly shown, at least in the films.
I don't know if if I heard the Freemen are
like Polly in the in the books.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're weird in the in the book, they're kind
of so we have to understand, I think, as you're
you're right there. You know, Herbert's definitely not Christian. His
vision of the future is perennialist and secretoust, so uh,
and it's kind of unclear he's not really conservative, as
you pointed, out, but again there are some traditional.
Speaker 3: He's like a libertarian, anarchist leaning kind of guy who
you know, would align with more of the so called
traditional right wing values of you know, I mean even
he makes the hearken in like big fat gay slobs,
you know, in the books. Also they're also peed, oh
you exactly abuse children, and the novel is.
Speaker 4: Very clear their peedo, which is interesting. So and like
you said, he's running during the Cold War, So there's
definitely this idea of we want to we want to
point out the dangers of status tyranny, collectivism, stalinism. Those
are obviously kind of being critiqued. But also he I
think if you read U Dow Messiah the sequel, he
wanted to, uh note that even good guys can be
tempted with too much power. Because Paul Paul becomes a
kind of a back and forth tragic hero. He kind
of is a hero, but he kind of isn't And
in the long running is of definitely a good guy.
But but he's definitely not the Messiah we think he is.
And so that's that's something that the story, it's a
direction the story he goes that most people don't expect
and you don't think if you only watch and see.
Here's the thing. I grew up watching the David Lynch Dune.
I've always loved it. Everybody hated it. It's it's critically
you know, despised. I just I've always liked it ever
since I was a kid watching it. Just something about
it was unique. And the other thing I appreciated about
the Dnnist version is I was worried that they wouldn't
have some homage and elements of the David Lynch version
in it, but they did. They kept some of those elements.
It kind of has a Lynch spirit to it, which
I appreciate. And that might just be would you what.
Speaker 3: Are some of those elements like that? You would have
expected them to.
Speaker 4: Some of the aesthetics, And I mean maybe that's attributable
to the the Giger art concept art, but also it
might be that I think Dennis and Lynch were both
really striving to be faithful to the book, the original.
Speaker 3: Sorry, who's Dennis? You mean?
Speaker 4: I was calling him Denis to piss off the nerves?
Speaker 3: Now you have to put the accent in the right.
Speaker 4: Exactly you It's it's it's Kiev. It's not Kiev. It's
I don't know if you know how to pronounce words
or not, but it's ghost. Yeah. So some of the
elements I think of the of the Lynch version, of
the cinematography, that the the aesthetics that carry over. And
the reason I like that is that because the novels
are syncretists, you've got Islamic influence, you've got Zen influence,
You've got particularly sunny sort of Islam, You've got Catholic
influence because in the in the religion, the world of doing,
the religion is called it's called the Orange Catholic Bible.
And this is this idea where in the future the
Catholicism and Islam have fused into this bizarre sort of
kind of a Nestorian type of Christianity, you could say.
And I think that's kind of why Paul is a
is a sort of God figure who he's not exactly
the Word of God, but sometimes he calls himself the
Voice of God, the voice from the outer world.
Speaker 3: But does he do that in the first novel. Is
that only later on where he starts using that language.
Speaker 4: No, it's it's in the novel.
Speaker 3: Because yeah, in the film he doesn't use that specific term.
Speaker 1: He does.
Speaker 3: He does reference God will one time at least in the.
Speaker 4: Film he says voice of God. I think at the
in the last sequence, because we just watched it last night,
when you know, when he's confronting at the very fact
the last thing when he fights Fade and he's basically
sassing everybody, he sasses Christopher Walking and the Reverend Mother
and he says something like I am the Voice or
something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did. I wish we had I wish I
had like a there was a DVD version, because you know,
I could only see it once, the second one. But yeah,
I remember at some point he does he does use
the term God. So it's it's an interesting thing how
in most sci fi now scientism comes like the religion, right,
It's assumed that scientism is true. So most sci fi
will focus on either a dystopian vision of the future
where scientism kind of goes too far in one direction,
and you know, maybe we should rearrange our priorities and
be a little bit more humanist in our in our approach.
And you know, so there's this sci fi has become,
so it's become so dreary, it's so demoralizing, right, some
sci fi films in general a propaganda tool for demoralization,
for bringing out you know, new tech, for uh, you know,
kind of just forming the worldview, right, this kind of
an idea of occult worldview warfare. Hollywood is very much
you know, the benages or order to such an extent
that there are like the new priesthoods. So it's it's
almost surprising that these films were made in the way
that they were, although you know there are are the
you know, there is the and this seems to come
from Frank Herbert, this very skeptical towards religion, very uh uh,
you know, really kind of bitter about you know, the
idea of a Messiah figure. This extreme skepticism towards anything
any man becoming a great man. You see that theme
throughout Hollywood, but it it kind of gets subverted in Dune,
at least the first two in a lot of ways.
I'm almost worried. I mean, I was thinking about this
at the end of Doune part two, like they're just
they're they're going to ruin it because there's.
Speaker 4: Some there is a danger that doing Messiah, because he
does I think he does plan to make so the
next story will be doing Messiah, which is the sequel
of the books. But remember, so there's a there's and
I've not finished it yet, but apparently when I'm told
happens without swung the whole story. But so, Paul is
going to have twins, and one of those twins famously
will become Wormboy. So the way that the salvation of
the human race happens in the story is that leto
the Second and Paul, one of the Paul's twins, there's
a sister and a brother, leader the second will merge
with the worm, and that's partly why we've seen so
many kind of mystical connections between Paul and the Worm
to become the worm Emperor, and this actually initiates a
thousand year reign of peace or the human race, which
ends up being the only timeline that Paul could have
chosen to save the human race. So in the long run,
what Herbert ended up doing was kind of making Paul
sort of a kind of Messiah. It didn't exactly go
the way that everybody planned, but that I think is
the point of the story that the things that you
think initially are kind of at odds Shailu versus the humans. Right,
they actually become merged. And I'm not say saying that
that's ethical or moral or Christian. I'm just saying that
it's it's unique. And ultimately Paul does end up being
not a bad guy. He makes mistakes, but he's kind
of inadvertent Messiah or lineage savior. You might could argue
that Lido, the worm boy, is the savior by the
word boy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, so that worm could become actually make a.
Speaker 4: Part four that will be wild. I mean you're gonna
see like the Worm Emperor. That's gonna be wild.
Speaker 3: I almost wish that they would just just leave it,
just leave it at the two, because I love the
way that it ends. It's so it leaves it so
open ended, and it's interesting seeing people argue. Right, You'll
see people kind of like in Are you know, people
coming from more of a Christian from the right, more
right wing perspective, saying that they love the film right,
that they love the aspect of the assumption, like you
can't get away from monarchy, he can't get away from patriarchy,
you don't get away from hierarchy. The the free will
aspect of the film of their being. You know, Yet
these characters, no matter how far along they go in
this like demonic realm of being totally taken over by
they're not taken over by, but consuming so much of
the spice, which allows Paul to see the past and
the future. He still has free will, and his choices
end up leading and he tries to take what he
calls like the Golden path or whatever. So this the
path that will result in it's not really clear. It
doesn't He doesn't overtly state his desires. You see that
he has some sympathy towards the Fremen, who are you know,
there's an aspect of the Fremen being. You know, they're
kind of the guerrilla warfare guys. They're the you know,
the mystics who live this kind of nature based religion.
So they're, you know, they It's not like a full
on Marxist undertone as Blater Onner twenty forty nine had,
which is another Deniven new film, which was a great film,
flawed in some ways, but you know, it's a fantastic film.
Paul sympathizes with them, but then he's also drawn towards
his destiny, right, He's drawn towards this greatness, and I
think in Hollywood you have this at this demonization of
you know, actual greatness. Right, Like I didn't watch I
didn't watch the Napoleon film, but it seems and I
think Napoleon was a total antichrist figure. But at the
same time, it's just this trope of, well, there are
great men that rise up every once in a while,
and it's awful and terrible, and we have to do
everything that we can to stop that from ever happening again,
from any you know, single man becoming so great and
having so much power.
Speaker 4: You know that again, they may do that in the
third one, but I think people will it would be
such a flop because it's not the way the storyline goes,
and in fact, it's it's not even really gonna work
for a feminist narrative because for those that don't know,
Paul's sister Alia is a hugely tragic figure. She will
be more powerful than Paul because he's actually born. So
when Jessica drinks the water of life, this actually like
double empowers Alia.
Speaker 3: And the water of life being this like super distilled
spice in a lot of ways, right, because the worms
are crawling through this planet a rackets. Well, it's like,
I mean, the worms are feeding on they're sifting all
this sand, consuming these giant spice harvesters, consuming all the
water from the people. So it's like the worms are
this symbol of just consumption, but this natural cycle of
death of like the underworld, right, and then to get
the water of life, I thought it was well done.
You know, they have to get a small baby worm
and suck out the fluid from inside of it, which
of course I would. You know. It's like it's almost
like this alchemical transformation of the spice into this super
concentrated almost poison.
Speaker 4: Correct, it's a super potent hallucinogen, and in the book
it's made really clear when when Paul drinks it, it's
a really intense basically like mega d mt acid trip. Okay,
so again we're space as we're not talking about anything Christian.
Speaker 3: There's just these sort of it's very gnostic, right, I mean,
it's this material that you can find consume and this
material will hyper accelerate your consciousness so that you can
have more power within the realm, within the known universe.
So it's kind of and it's a it's the spices
itself really demonic. I mean, it's an evil thing that
actually ends up drawing people into I mean, it seems
like the spice is this catalyst for these massive genocides,
these holy wars, and these battles for resources. Would you
would you agree.
Speaker 4: With that or do you think I think I don't
think it's I think it's a neutral thing in the story.
It's a very powerful commodity that has the ability to
give you, you know, advanced vision, enlightenment and the space travel.
So it's kind of like Heroin Heroin oil, right, sure.
Speaker 3: But it also it's like, I mean, it's almost from
the Christian perspective, is you're kind of looking at like
the tree of the tree the knowledge of good and
evil in a lot of ways, you know, and it's
used sacramentally, uh, in certain contexts. So there's this. What
I what I do like about this too is the
way it's portrayed is how religion is inevitable. Faith is
the fabric of the cosmos. Faith is the driving force
between behind every single character's actions, including even even Polytrdes
and his mother, Lady Jessica. The Lady Jessica, the mother
of Polytrdes, is the member of the Ben and Jestrit Order,
who even the name is based on Jesuit, right, the
Jesuit Order, the Benjesra, Yeah, the Beny Jesuits, which is
you know, referring to to the Jesuits. But also there
are aspects of many different kind of religious occult religious
type groups that are there. But she she ends up
and it's hard to tell whether she's manipulating sometimes when
she's speaking to what's her name, Aliyah in the womb, right,
I mean, I remember at the end, near the end
of the film, Aliyah starts speaking to her after she
had taken this water of life. Aliah has this awakening
and she becomes this fetus in the womb is telepathically
communicating with her mother, and it is becoming very powerful.
Speaker 4: Right. That's what I'm saying, is that what happens, and
this is why won't really work unless they significantly depart
from the novel. This in the next one is that
there's no way to make this feminist unless you just
totally depart from the story. Because Aliat will be born
with all the powers of a grown, mature reverend mother,
which as a child is really unheard of, and so
if you remember in the novel are in the movie
at the end the Christopher Walkins reverend mother was saying
that all of our hope is not just in Paul.
There are others which could be the child of Fate Ralph,
or it could be Alia. And the thing with Alia
is that she will There's some really wild stuff in
Do Messiah. That's it's almost seems Crollian, because she eventually
gets her own cult, so people start worshiping her. There's
a religion that forms around her. The imagery has shown
where that she almost had. She has like this ritual
where she holds up a chalice. It's very reminiscent of
like the horror Babylon in the Book of Revelation. Again
perhaps even Krollian, the way Crowley speaks of the scarlet woman.
And then Alia ends up going matt so she goes crazy.
She's going to be a villain, the tragic villain figure.
Speaker 3: She has to that. You have to do that with
that character. She's got to be completely twisted and insane.
Speaker 4: And here's the crazy part. She will actually be. This
is something that this novel deals with. I'm not aware
of other maybe some soci fi novels. I'm not a
huge sci fi reader, but.
Speaker 3: That's in Dune Messiah where she goes nuts.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but the novel deals with genetic memories. So if
you remember the when when Jessica drinks the water bluff,
she remembers and has the knowledge of all the previous
Reverend mothers because of genetic memories. Paul is awakened to
genetic memories as well. That's why he's always talking about
the sleeper must awaken and so forth, which is more
prominent in the David Lynch one than in this one.
But yeah, the genetic memories empower you. But there's a
downside of the genetic memories which can empower you, which
is that you can also be possessed by alternate personalities
of your relatives. So when Alia gets possessed, she actually
gets possessed by Baron Harkone because that's her granddad. Okay,
that's crazy.
Speaker 3: Well there's that life from Paul. He's like, we will
win by what did he say, well, win by being
like the Hearkeners.
Speaker 4: Does will have to be like him? Then he finds
out he is one?
Speaker 1: Right, So.
Speaker 4: But at one point I didn't want to make earlier
so he's in the novel. He is the voice from
the outer world, so he is identified as the Voice
of God, the Word of God. And again it's weird
because it's not exactly explained. It's kind of maybe meant
in a Nestorian ish sense. So, but there's a great
scene in the David Lynch one at the end where
when he kills Fade, he speaks and it like splits
Fade open because he has that power, and apparently that
that was kind of unique to the Lynch one, where
there's not I don't know, it's been ten years since
I read the novel. I remember a lot of it,
but I don't. They don't have the killing words like
they do in the David Lynch version. So if you
notice in the dentist version they don't fight with words,
that's unique to the David Lynch version. You know what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: I didn't see the end of the David Lynch version.
Speaker 4: You know how it's throughout it. But do you remember
how when Jessica, for example, she.
Speaker 3: Uses the voice she's training Paul to use use the
voice here, come over here, and then the other benijesterrit
Seductress uses the voice on fadea Lynch version.
Speaker 4: They developed that idea of the Weirding way, where Paul
teaches the Fremen how to fight with words, so you
can actually say a killing word and it like this
little machine projects the word out. I always thought that
was cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's cool. I guess I could see why it
would be really difficult to portray in film, right, you know,
for a novel, it's way easier to portray, but especially
after Star Wars, right, because well, that's another thing that
you notice when you watch Dune, realizing that the first
novels were written in the nineteen sixty five I mean,
Star Wars is almost completely based.
Speaker 4: Off of this.
Speaker 3: Star Wars is just like a distilled uh normy version
of None for people with eighty five I Q, it's
not it's I mean, the Jedi mind tricks, the even
the the relationship between Luke and his and Darth Vader. Right,
you have Paul a Trade he's finding out that his
grandfather is Baron Harken, and you have a similar situation
in uh in Star Wars where he finds out that
Vader is his father. And there's there's just there's so
many parallels.
Speaker 4: And but yeah, I gotta say, is just like a
Racus right where is Yeah, there's a lot of these,
by the way. I also the more I thought about
Game of Thrones, I mean I have to believe that
George Martin was pulling from this as well, and even
to the point of like low Iq Marvel stuff. I mean,
if you think about it, the fact that Paul is
enlightened via the Ritual and then he sees various timelines
that he chooses one from that that's the same plot
as Doctor Strange in The Avengers, where he has to
depopulate the universe by allowing fan of he indirectly allows
Danos to win, which he populates the universe, and that
is later explained that Doctor Strains chose the one timeline
where he can save the human race straight out of Dun. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, There's so many parallels and it really makes
you it really makes it easier to diss on George
Lucas and Star Wars, which.
Speaker 4: It's almost like all the fantasy rips off Lord of
the Rings and all the sci fi rips off Duane.
Speaker 3: Basically sure, sure, And I think Dune pulled a little
bit from Lord of the Rings as well. I mean,
you know, I mean the spice, the ring there. There
there are certain parallels there that you know, maybe in
fantasy sci fi is this type of symbolism is unavoidable.
But I see some some parallels there. Have you come
across the fact that Tolkien really disliked Dune. He didn't
like Frank from what I've read, I haven't read the
direct quotes from him, but Tolkien didn't like the cynical
nature of Frank Herbert's the reality where there's there's no
there's no real clear good and evil. There's just like
way evil and slightly less evil, which I think it
ends up working against Herbert. I think this is one
of those films, just like I don't know, you look
like the Barbie movie, where you've got a bunch of
liberals try to make a film where it's they're trying
to give you one message, but they end up subverting
their own message because they're unavoidably stepping in their own filth,
and they end up making something really interesting. And I
think even with Herbert his cynicism towards religion. From what
I've heard, he wrote the first book and then was
really upset with how people were lionizing Paul, and people
really were like Paul is the people saw Paul as
being such a great figure. Like it really the first
The Dune, Part one and part two, it's almost like
a hagiography about this character Paul, who has the opportunity
to be a true leader. He really does a lot
of great things. We don't know his true motivations ultimately,
but there are possible selfish motivations for a lot of
what he does, revenge, you know, vengeance being a major
thing for him. But it's almost like a secular hagiography
of this great man figure who is a type of Antichrist. Right,
he is a type of Antichrist, and that he's manipulating
certain prophecies and fulfilling this role as this prophet within
the structure of these prophecies to get things done geopolitically
and personally. But then there's another layer of this where
the audience is not so sure. Well, perhaps perhaps there's
some truth to these prophecies, because even Lady Jessica ends
up saying that the fetus, what is that child called Aliyah,
And it's I'm so glad that they used it. They
used Ai to actually bring back Aliyah. From the from
the nineties and and she Yeah, she has some great solo.
She has some great songs in the film as well,
so that the fact that they used Aliyah it was great.
I'm joking boomer joke.
Speaker 4: But either way, that's a gen X joke.
Speaker 3: Bro Alia Aliah, like none of the Zoomer is watching.
If there are any Zoomers, you're not even allowed to
watch this. But yeah, I think I think so man.
Speaker 4: I think like.
Speaker 3: Did he had her jay Z and those people they
think they're messed with her when she was really young.
She was like sixteen fifteen, which is famous. So anyways,
Aliyah tells, well, Jessica tells Paul that Aliah is telling
her that Aliyah believes in him and it's starting to
believe that the prophecies are real. So you get this
aspect of well, you're not so sure. Are the prophecies
all just benjeser It manipulations for geopolitical power and for
power over people? Or is the an aspect of truth
is Paul the Lea song is at the lisan Al
Gayib or whatever is he is? He truly lisan Al Gaib.
It's open ended, and I think that ends up undermining
the cynical viewing of the film as and like all
religion is just fake. It's all just like some people
that are just trying to control you and get your
magic mushrooms so that they can have all the magic
mushrooms and do the space acid so that they can
fold space time or whatever. It's like, I don't know,
I think I kind of like, I kind of like
how it ends without the dude Messiah addition, because you've
got at the end of it and then I know
you've got a lot of great insights too. J Sor
I've been rambling here, but you have this kind of
great man figure who ends up leading these people into
a holy war. And at the end of the in
the theater, most people are like cheering on. They're like, yeah,
holy war, this is based like we love it. And
I think a lot of that's because of the aesthetics
of it. The aesthetics of the film are are it's
a beautiful. The cinematography is amazing, the way that it's shot,
even the color schemes. It's not that sound the sound
is amazing. So all the aesthetics lead you to be
cheering on for Paul. You want Paul to win because
he's facing little little fat uh you know, pedo demon guys,
and you want him to you want him to be
the Lisana al gaib And in the end of it,
even Chani, the kind of obnoxious character who's basically a
stand in Channis. Like throughout the films, Channi is the
character the audience is supposed to be seeing themselves in.
The audience is supposed to be seeing the world through Channi,
and that's why she's there at all these key moments.
And she's not really like a feminist figure, but she's
a little girl bossy. I mean, she's fighting in the
war and stuff, and she's there's a romantic element to this,
and she feels betrayed by Paul, right Paul she had
told Paul, I'll love you for as long as you
are who you are or something like that, and as
he changes, she gets to scall at him and make
this stink face, you know, angry girlfriend vibe. And then
it gets really intense in the end when he ends
up leading everybody off of Aracus. He says, let's go.
We're gonna go to the Green Paradise, We're gonna go
to war, We're having a dang holy war with the
rest of the houses. They all get on the ships
and they leave, and Chinese stays behind. And the character
that's supposed to represent like the Western view or the
average cynical about religion. Oh, it's all just fake prophecies
to manipulate you and take your oil.
Speaker 1: Bro.
Speaker 3: She ends up rage crying and soyjacking alone with a
giant worm on the sand world at the end of
the film. So it definitely subverts your expectations on what's
supposed to happen. And she gets she gets completely cooked
by Paul, who marries the emperor's daughter, who's actually beautiful.
I'm like Zendia. He marries like the Emperor Paul, the episody,
not the Emperor Paul. Paul becomes emperor and takes the
hand of the princess to marry her in a political move,
which you know, there's not like a romance between the
two at this point. It's purely political. And Zendaiah is
left pissy, scowling and just rage crying at the end
of the film.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think they probably chose for Hollywood reasons
to turn Chawny into this sort of sassy conflicted character,
because I don't recall any of that in the book.
I'm pretty sure she's you know, if you watch the
David Lynch version, it's a little closer to the book
in this regard because Mary Sean Young's character as Chawny
basically just totally like never she's fierce, and she's always
sort of this primal tribal woman that she never questions
Paul or like in doing Messiah, she does kind of
give pushback on some of his ideas and some of
what she's worried about him. Because ironically, in doing Messiah,
he turns into more of a machine. He becomes a
mentat and sot. So the mentats were when they banned
AI in the Butlery and Jahad. The way to get
around this was that they have genetic manipulation, and genetic
manipulation can allow for the creation of highly like super
high IQ people. So if you remember in Dune one,
that black dude that has the white eyes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't he the first character shown? The guy that
uh is the guy that polked? Oh no, I'm sorry,
the black dude, the like albino is black dude. He
got the line on his U.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in the David Lynch version that the Mentats have
like these really huge eyebrows, and so the Mentat has
become the super high i Q Spurg. They're basically the Spurgs.
They're the Spurgs that consult Uh and plan Uh like
savants for the ruling powers. So like the Baron has
a mentat the House of Trades, has a mentat Thufer.
And so Paul ends up becoming one of these human
supercomputers in a way because he's not he doesn't want
to at all be controlled by emotion, so he becomes
this very calculated, cold machine like thing, and he's alienated,
so he doesn't relate to people. The closest connection he has,
ironically is actually Chawny, but even she's kind of simple
to him because he's kind of like the pseudo god figure.
So he's kind of losing connection to the human race.
And this is partly what makes him a tragic figure.
And and but he's not. He doesn't end up being
an anti Cris. He actually ends up being this well
it's meg a lobstory short. He ends up blinded by
an event in doing Messiah, so he loses his eyesight
from an atomic going off, and he realized this is
his mistake that he isn't He does end up troubled
from the Jahad because you get like sixty or eighty
billion people in the universe end up dying from the
Shahad that he kicks off, and he ends up retreating
into the desert like Obi wan Kenobi as a hermit.
Speaker 3: Does he lose the jihad or does he win the Jahad?
Speaker 4: Well, they they kind of win, but it's not his
jihad that saves everybody. It ends up in huge misery.
But what I'm saying is that the big irony here
is that it's his it's his son who's the worm
boy that ends up bringing peace. So what I think
is going on, I'm speculating here because I haven't finished
the whole storyline, but I think Herbert, maybe to your point,
saw that people shouldn't have been lionizing Paul in the
first one. You Messiah makes him a cautionary figure, but
ultimately he's not a bad guy because in a weird
inadvertent way, the prophecies end up kind of being true.
Speaker 3: So he's like, he's like freaking out. He's like, no,
you guys don't understand it, Paul's not a good guy,
and then he kind of seems like he tried to
retcon it a little bit and retroactively changed the interpretation
that you're supposed to get from it by adding more
to the story. But maybe he just I don't know.
It's one of those things where it's like the piece
of art got out of the artist's hands almost, you know,
I just like everybody.
Speaker 4: I mean, the sequels are famously weird. I mean they
and they get weirder.
Speaker 3: So you think he was tripping a lot. Was he taken?
Speaker 4: I mean I wondered about that. I couldn't find any
evidence of him actually necessarily doing drugs. Very possible, but I.
Speaker 3: Can't imagine him writing is like the storyline about Paul
taking so much spice that he becomes unable to interact
with people in a normal way. I mean, it just
it reminds me of people who have just gone so
far down the you know, people who just really overdid
it with acid and mushrooms and stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right about that. It's very possible,
and it does it does read like somebody maybe experimenting
with LSD or something. But I mean the sequel was
just way weirder and different than I expected. It's much
The sequel is much more like a courtly intrigue espionage
novel than it is any kind of action story. So
Dune is more is like action battles gigantic scope.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: The second novel is not like that at all. It's
like a weird courtly espionage assassination thing. They create this
this this this weird guy who's supposed to be Duncan reborn.
Speaker 3: They have the ability somehow Duncan who wasn't was that
the freaking what's his name?
Speaker 4: Duncan's the Jason Momoa character that's Paul's great best friend,
the warrior guy at the beginning who gets killed. So
the the court of Christopher Walkin and the Reverend Mother,
they come up with a plot where they wrote Eraline
in to create this restore. They have the ability to
it's not a but they have the ability to, like
it's kind of sort of cloning but not exactly like.
They bring back a kind of a husk of a
person who isn't the person but has some of the
genetic memories of the person, and they do this as
a kind of trick to ultimately trick Paul to bring
Duncan back, but Paul actually knows what they're doing, so
it doesn't really work, but he almost kills the twins
at the end. But so long story Shore is just
what I like again is that you've got terraforming, you've
got mk ultra elements. In the first one, Nick and
they do what they call imperial conditioning to make sure
that people are mind control so that they don't and
can't ever turn on one of the royal houses.
Speaker 3: So wow, So they and they call it imperial conditioning
is the term. I wish they'd included that term in
the films because you see some of this The David Lynch,
I gotta I gotta watch the David.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of elements where the David Lynch is
actually close for the books. But the Doctor Yui, the Trader.
One of the reasons that they trust Doctor You is
that he's supposed to have the imperial conditioning, So he
has the mark on his third eye, which is supposed
to signify that he's safe and that he won't betray
the house.
Speaker 3: A total mind controlled slave at that point.
Speaker 4: Right exactly. But here's the thing is that if he's
if it's the Imperial conditioning that. Then it's still not
going to be sufficient because the Empire is conspiring against
House with Trades because it's it's Christopher Walking and the
Baron who want Paul and Dukelido dead. So you've got
terraforming in the novels, which is odd because geoengineering and
terraforming are in Dune. I mean, who knew about geo
engineering and terraforming?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this, I mean a lot of these topics seem
like these are fringe topics at the time being talked to.
I mean, these are topics that were being discussed in
think tanks right now. If Herbert, if Frank Herbert, and
I've heard he was, he was a big Nixon guy.
Speaker 4: And if he was giving a geop speech writer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a goop speech writer. So he's for
sure going to a lot of these RAND corporation meetings.
You know, he's got to be in these types of circles.
Speaker 4: It would seem likely, and my suspicion would be that, yeah,
he's hearing this stuff talked about, Like, guys, in fifty years,
we're gonna be geoengineering, We're gonna try to terraform by
the your twenty twenties's probably hearing these kind of things,
like you're saying rand meetings or something.
Speaker 3: For sure, and then this type of stuff was in
Like Asimov was talking about some of these topics too,
So the these type of topics they were around, But
it's interesting that he included them and in the film.
I wish they had some more about uh. It sounds
like in the books it was a bigger part of
the plot is the terraforming, because they do hint at
this when they talk about how they're saving all the water, uh,
with the waters on Oracus, the Fremen will extract the
water juice from the bodies of their dead and they'll
put them in these big pools that are kind of underground,
these large ponds and they've got almost you know, lakes. Yeah,
so they're they're saving this up apparently to try to
terraform it and make it into their green pair paradise,
which is also prophesied in their prophecies that are given
to them through the Benjesred, which those prophecies are leveraged
in order to get them to become geopolitical pawns, which
is this is you know, I titled this in order
to reference that concept, that concept of religious engineering, of
a cult warview, a worldview warfare, and of parapolitics with
I think Dune really does brilliantly touch on some of
these some of these subjects and show how important they
are in a real world setting. And I'd like to
ask you a little bit. I mean, I was just
reading through I finally started getting into Whitney Webb's book
One Nation Under Blackmail. You mentioned the Spice being almost
like space heroin. Well, the you know, the heroin trade
really being crucial to twentieth century geopolitics. Frank Herbert obviously
pointing that out. You know, the concept of the Golden
Triangle has talked about here in the first chapter. I mean,
going all the way back to like the Sassoon family,
who were a family out of England. But you know,
the Sassoon family was a Jewish family out of England
who famously got involved in the opium trade and actually
helped to bring about the opium Wars. You know, they're
trying to think the opium wars are absolutely fascinating and
the way that the opium Wars played out are very
reflective over how things have happened in the twentieth century
as well. So we're talking about the mid nineteenth century.
The British in China engaged in economic warfare as well
as worldview warfare and the use of drugs and the
drug trade to demoralize people, to bring about revolutionary fervor,
to weaken a culture in order to become kind of
a basically vassal state in this you know, neoliberal so
called free market Autumn.
Speaker 4: Richies India Company was the most powerful corporation in the
history of the world. In fact, there's not even even
Apple or anything today, it doesn't compare to what was
coming in on a daily basis to the East British
US India Company in their heyday.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's absolutely staggering. You've also got the history of
like the Hudson's Bay Company leading up to the rise
of the Bronfman family, which is referenced here and there
in her Underworld chapter. So could you want to talk
a little bit about it. I know you did a
stream on this recently, and I think it's kind of
fresh in your mind. A lot of this history of espionage,
history of worldview warfare, even religious engineering, especially as it
relates to geopolitics around like the World War two era,
post World War two, the OSS, the creation of the CIA,
because Herbert's book and the way that the Benjesrat order
works with sexual blackmail and all this really ties into
that history.
Speaker 4: Yeah. The book I did just read and talk about
was Michael Grazziano's academic his book Airing into the Wilderness Religion,
the History of the CIA, And of course this goes
very well with Paul Williams's Gladiol book, Daniel Ganster's thesis
the NATO Gladio NATO's Secret Armies is what it's called.
And then it goes well with the wim Off book
Time Life Magazine in the CIA's doctrinal warfare program about
John Courtney Murray, the famous Jesuit. Yeah, I think this
is it's an overlooked but very obvious when you start
to think about a relationship between the state and the church. Obviously,
the state has always wanted it to have some element
of control over the church, to make sure that it's
in line with the designs of the state. Sometimes there's
there's a harmony in a symphonia there, but other times
there's a split, and we have for example, Aryan emperors
who want to enforce arianism or iconic class emperors who
want to enforce iconic clasm, and so the Church of
State butt heads. But not as many people know about
the secret sort of under the table relationship where a
lot of times clergy missionaries can be recruited to do
spy work, espionage work. You mentioned a few streams back
that I will be done book where we have the
Rockefellers having a direct interest in utilizing missionaries for the
promotion of their oil interests and their economics. There were
a lot of actizations. By the way, the British East
India Company was also utilizing missionaries. In fact, I bought
a book on the history of the British US India Company.
I even found a really obscure British MP's investigation into
the British US India Company from like the year nineteen
hundred something crazy it's austiny.
Speaker 3: Well, you had also consider, you know how the whole
British pop thing and the Beatles and all this helped
to propel Eastern mysticism into the forefront of Western culture,
including yoga and all this. A lot of that came
out of the called the British invasion. You know, all
this very popular British rock music, and a lot of
like the most experimental rock came out of out of Britain,
right with the whole the Canterbury scene, with like the
pro all these prog bands who are tripping on a
bunch of drugs and putting out this very strange almost
Eastern mysticism inspired but also classical musically and music inspired
theatrical music like the early Genesis stuff. So there was
all this experimental mashing of world religions into kind of
this syncretistic culture that got pushed at the same time
as psychedelics are being pushed through of course we know.
Speaker 4: And that's largely you could point back to Blovatski and
the Fabians who were pioneering a lot of that, and
they were doing that at the best of Lord Milner,
Lord Rothschild, Cecil Rhodes, the Milliner circles are really the
brainchild and the power behind the Fabians, and they're the
predecessors to the sixties counterculture. They had a mini sexual
revolution in the eighteen nineties, in the nineteen twenties and
thirties that were that was Fabian inspired, and then it
really goes wild in the nineteen sixties. So yeah, you're
absolutely right that that's the same ties into a lot
of the same stuff. It's just I was reminded of
the British East India Company's history, where China was actually
accusing the British of using missionaries to be dope dope smugglers.
I don't know whether that was the case, but at
least in the China. In the Chinese mind, one of
the reasons they did that they didn't like the British
was that they thought that missionaries were being used to
do spy work or to as secretly sell dope.
Speaker 3: Well, that that's fascinating. I mean that those types of
allegations are all throughout the twentieth century as well with
the Rockefeller Foundation.
Speaker 4: And then I will be done exactly.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's not worth reading every page of
it because it's it's a massive tome. I think it's
like eight hundred pages or something. But yeah, Gerald Colby
and Charlotte Dennetz that I will be done. They talk
a lot about how this group's like si L and
some of these CIA connected missionary groups Protestant groups used
English translations of the Bible and trying to get tribes
to learn English in order to get them into predatory
situations and signing contracts for exploitation of resources, and essentially
just using religion and especially language and the English language
in order to get the in order to get this done.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is this is why Mormon missionaries famously
have been recruited by the CIA. You know, there's a
close connection between Mormonism and the CIA, as well as
a lot of other Protestant to missionaries and as well
Cathlican Orthodox have also been recruited by the OSS and
CIA too.
Speaker 3: So out of the OSS and the CIA try to
use the fan ard, you know. I mean, that's famously
in the twentieth century, the Constantinople trying to be a
try just as a tool for geopolitical intrigue. Also, even
you know, these Protestant groups, like a lot of Mennonite
groups get involved in strange stuff these days too. You know,
I've heard a lot of stuff about Mennonite groups being
involved in smuggling networks throughout Mexico and interfacing with cartel
UH smuggling operations and whatnot in Mexico because they have
a lot of.
Speaker 4: I've suspected that I haven't seen in the past. I've
never found like a heart. I haven't spent a lot
of time going down that rabbit hole. But yeah, I've
always thought that. I mean, if you grow up in Tennessee,
for example, there's a lot of men night Nomas that
are still around, and there's always we've always heard stories
that they do all the same kind of criminal activities
as any other group. So I'm not surprised that that
makes sense. But yeah, to bring it back to kind of,
you know, the world of done, I thought it was
very pression, very maybe not pression, but it was very
It was a very insightful move to have the Benny
jes Er It's be such a power or full force
in the world of religion that are pretty clearly espionage.
And I noticed I did look up some academic literary
some other people had written on how the Benny Jesuits
are basically kind of like the CIA or some sort
of spy agency. And so but it's odd that they're
all women, I'm not. I mean, you could argue that
the the they have these face shifters and in doing
Messiah that will come, by the way, that's also the
George Martin Borrow's that the piece the people that can
shift their face, the nobodies or whatever they're called, that's
from Dune too, do Messiah. They they might be spies,
I guess you could say from a male set, but
it's just odd that the spies are typically in Dune women.
Speaker 3: It's it is interesting and some people will say, well,
he was a he's a huge misogynist. You know, women
were manipulative in Dune.
Speaker 4: You see.
Speaker 3: Even there was some tweet and trying to find this
funny tweet from if you just searched like Dune the
on Twitter, there's some funny interactions happening, you know between
like more left leaning people and right leaning people. This
person is like soyjacking about doing is fat phobic?
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 4: The part of the reason, so another reason why we
would speculate that Herbert really new insides of what the
system was up to and what the real philosophy of
the elites is is that a big part of the
Dune world is eugenics, and so the veny jes As Sisterhood,
they're not just seeding stories, they're actually manipulating bloodlines for
hundreds of years to try to produce the Ubermtge and
their idea is that we're not so much worried about
emperors and barons and people that come and go. If
we can control this super being and their ideas they can't,
they're going to be able to control the super being.
Then they'll be the ultimate power behind the throne in
the universe. That's why the Reverend morother says, you don't understand,
like the quizats Hoderak is the greatest power the universe
has ever seen. We want to control that. But I
thought you might find this interesting. I read it when
I did my so this is this is just a
little section in Do Messiah that you'll you'll find relevant
to what you're talking about. And in every chapter of Doune,
they're usually citing some weird book in the universe of Doune,
like they're citing Pristas, Airlines Diaries or something. This is
from the book called the Orgy. As a tool of
state craft, Yeah says the most dangerous game in the
universe is to govern from an oracular base. We do
not consider ourselves wise enough and brave enough to play
that game. The measure detailed here for the regulation in
lesser matters are as near as we dare venture to
the brink of government. For our purposes. We borrow the
definition from the Vinny Jesuits. We consider the various worlds
of the universe as gene pools, sources of teachings and
of teachers, sources of what is possible. Our goal is
not to rule, but the into these gene pools, to
learn and to free ourselves from all restraints imposed by
the dependency of government. So that's something that the Steersman's Guild,
which would be the Spacing Guild. That's one of their
books and they're at the book is just titled Orgy
as a tool of take wraps. So the whole all
of it's full of like you know, Herbert having knowledge
of like Epstein type.
Speaker 3: Stuff, right, yeah, Yeah, that's that's fascinating, and you know
that's obviously it's a PG thirteen movie. Thankfully, there's no
there's no like crazy gratuitous sex scenes or anything in it,
which I did appreciate about Dune. It's like it's not
you know, it's not super raunchy. The violence is it
was well done in both of the films, a tasteful,
tasteful amount of violence, but there is the the Benjester woman.
She seduces Fade what's his name, Fade Rotha Roth Fade
Rothschild Fade Fade Rotha. She seduces him and then I
think the dialogue could have been improved a little bit.
Afterwards she goes back to her Benagesterrit's and says, well,
he can be controlled through sexuality, through humiliation, and through
uh you know, he power. So you know, I mean
that you only have so much time in the film
to flesh this stuff out. But it wasn't it wasn't
that bad. It was well done. The way they showed it,
the way that they they hinted at the wider, broader
scope of why it's women that are the benagesterate is
because these men who are in power are often have
a weakness for women. So yeah, which is something absolutely
really when we when.
Speaker 4: We speak of like the traditional word witch, it meant
a weird woman w y r D who was a
cunning woman. Right. So the idea is that the ultimate
witch is the is the handler, because it's the most
cunning person. It's the person that you'll you'll never outsmart
in this game of you know, intrigue. And so the
Reverend Mother is really sort of the intended to be
that we think the power behind the throne. And that's
why it's not a feminist story, because Paul ends up
being the one who goes where the women can't go.
The women can't go in the ritual where Paul goes,
and that's why when he comes back, they fear him.
And when she tries to use the voice on Paul
at the end, he says silence and she jumps back right,
it's very reminiscent of like when Christ says I am
and the soldiers fall back.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting too, I mean, because they spent thousands
of years on their little eugenics project trying to bring
about what do they call it, the.
Speaker 4: Quiz atch hacker universe is super being.
Speaker 3: The q queiss Hadarak. So they're trying to create their
uber mensch who is going to you know, see perfectly
in past, present, and future and be able to guide
the known universe basically but under their control. So they
they want to be the puppet masters behind him. And
uh so they spend how it was like thousand years
with this breeding program to bring about the perfect candidate
for this, but he ends up not being under their control,
so they lose control of him ultimately, And so there
is this, you know, there's the cynicism about religion, there's
the cynicism that Frank Herbert seemed to have. But then
there also is seemingly a real aspect of the supernatural
at play in the universe, which I think is handled
well tastefully without being corny. There really is. There seems
to be something there, at least in the way that
the films portrayed it, right, with certain lines of dialogue
hinting at well, maybe he is the lisan al Gayib
and maybe the Benjesrit are not in total control, because
you've got Lady Jessica seeming to clash a little bit
with the other reverend mother and she says something to
the other reverend mother of like, well you pick the
wrong side, and she mocks her. She says, well, you
should have known all this time, you should have known
that there are no sides, right, there are no sides here.
But that being said, they are. Jessica seems to be
pushing back a little bit and clashing with what the
Menagesits really want. The Benajests try to get rid of
the a Tredes' bloodline. They try to kill them all
off on hark On what's it called an aracus? So
you know there would you say that there is an
aspect of that in the books where there might be
something there or is it you're supposed to think at
the end of the books? No, this is all just
hogwash invented by some witches to control people and control
their minds.
Speaker 4: I'm guessing. And again because I don't know where the
next novels will go in terms of theism.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, having read the first two novels, what would
you say, I'm just.
Speaker 4: Going I'm thinking that. But I have read quite a
bit on like uh, literary theory, you know, theories and
now aalysis of the whole series, so I kind of
know where the series goes, but in a general sense,
not the details. I think maybe there is this idea,
so it's a it's a it's a universe where there's evolution,
there's genetic manipulation, there's the idea of the possibility of
evolving and mutating to perhaps godlike powers. So it's not
I would hesitate to say at this stage in the
first two it's not supernatural so far, except that we
might have an irony where the uh, the prophecies actually
sort of manifest, so we don't get the idea that
it's supernatural. In the first two books, we get the
idea that there's these it's almost like there's there's very
there's powers that can be tapped into, but they don't
seem to be supernatural. They seem to be latent natural
powers that allow us to maybe ascend evolutionarily to some
sort of quasi divine status.
Speaker 3: Okay, So then the Benajester they take what's natural, they
spin a supernatural veil around the front of it, present
it to the you know, the people.
Speaker 4: Right, But as I understand, as the stories progress, there
is towards the end of the of all six stories
this there's something about a confrontation with the beyond. It
gets really crazy, like the novels get really wild. So
he takes it in the direction of their possibly being
some entity beyond. What that is, it's unclear. He may
not even explain it in the in the in the novels,
the don Nerds in the chat can probably explain it
better than me. But uh, I don't think it goes
into the themen of supernatural, except perhaps towards the end,
but we do get weirder and weirder things happening. So
maybe by doing six.
Speaker 3: But I'd say from what I gleaned from the two films,
it seems like they're is something, you know, there is
a real presence of something strange, possibly supernatural going on.
Speaker 4: Well, for example, the the worms, they're called shai Elude.
They see the freemen seem to take the worms as
like a manifestation of the power of God, and.
Speaker 3: With the worms seeming to respect Paul. Is that in
the first one, the scene where the worm comes and
it's like it gleans Paul and there is this moment
where he seems to be the worms even seem to
recognize Paul.
Speaker 4: Well, that's because this is letting you know that they're
going to Paul's descendant will become a worm. That's how
crazy this is. I mean, this it's just crazy, dude.
Like the novel, I can't even when you read it
like it's it's even crazier.
Speaker 3: Because it freaking zone.
Speaker 4: Her crazy directions. I mean, you're wondering, like, was Frank
Herbert just like a super weird spurg of the nineteen sixties.
He seems like a total spurg because it's it's also
like Lord of the Rings in that you know, you know,
Tolkien was such a Spurg that he creates his own
language and like like there's a language of Mortor and
he like he makes a real language. There's like he
makes a real language of l Like who makes elf languages? Spurg?
I mean, and and he does the same thing with like, oh,
the people of you know, ben a Talelax, they speak
this language and it's it's Luke Luke's look, you know,
it's like there's a lot of x's and z's and
I mean, it's just just total spurg stuff. And there's
some weird sex stuff that happens later on in the
later novels.
Speaker 3: Does he get explicit with it or does he? Is
he tasteful? He seems like a weird man. He's strange.
Speaker 4: I don't know what to say about about where it goes,
but I just think that it's just totally not like
any other sci fi and it has all of these
weird elements that I mean, how many spy novels are
sci fi? They're not very few. I mean again, I
don't read a lot of sci fi. But it's just not.
You don't see science fiction stories written this well and
dealing with such really profound topics ideas geopolitics, espionage, mind control,
the occult to a degree.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, the ocult. The cult is a huge
aspect of the film. It's I mean, it's a big thematic.
Speaker 4: I was he here's a good point on what you're saying.
So in Dune it does seem to border on supernatural.
And maybe in Herbert's mind, maybe he's agnostic, and so
he kind of has it open an open question.
Speaker 3: But like when it's just so fun to write it
that way, where he couldn't help himself with some of
this stuff, where it's just well.
Speaker 4: When Paul undergoes this ritual, okay, he he sees he
talks about seeing the infinite, and he talks about like
seeing all the timelines, all.
Speaker 3: The possible timelines. I mean, this is a supernatural.
Speaker 4: Probably the closest to the supernatural and that I can think.
Speaker 3: But because he pegs it to it's not a you know,
like in in the Orthodox tradition, you gain you know,
knowledge is gained through you know, the cleansing of the noose,
right so that you can have communion with God it's
not you know, there's no shortcuts of you know, you
just take a milligram of acid then you're gonna But
he he goes and he mega doses on the spice
for a long time, fries fries fries balls on freaking
space acid and gets all this insight, but can't really
control the visions. The visions are sometimes real. Sometimes he doesn't.
He doesn't ought to interpret it. So he's getting all
these you know, insights that are not really insights sometimes
and then he drinks the what do they call it,
the water alife and ends up taking it to another
level where he's able to kind of whether they use
the word like prescience or something, he's able to kind
of prescient lead to be there and be present within
these visions of the past, present and future. But it's
an imminentized gnostic way of achieving. So he consumes the
he consumes the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil,
knows good and evil, becomes like God. So it's it's
kind of a Luciferian Promethean search for knowledge that Paul's
going through in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean again, the religion of the Fremen is
a mix of indigenous paganism. They retain a lot of
that paganism in some of the traditions. I mean, it's
it's very elaborate where you have the Southern fundamentalists and
the northern you know, skeptics and that kind of mirrors
like Judah and in the time when Israel's divided between
the ten northern tribes and they're apostate, and then you
have only the you know, Judah in the south where
the temple is as the Southern fundamentalists. So there's there's
parallels to like Israel and its history, and there's parallels
to you know, Mosaic and christ type themes where they
want to stamp out the bloodline, I mean, the the vinages,
the bloodline. Yeah, they want to stamp out the trades
because if you remember, she says, we can't control them,
they're getting too uppity. So we want to erase house
of trades, that whole bloodline can't be controlled. We're going
to try maybe fade Ralph or some other options here
is that's their mindset. So in that sense, there's parallel
to like Herod stamping out the you know, trying to
stamp out the bloodline fro tries to stamp out the
Messianic bloodliness. A lot of things borrow from the Bible.
The desert springing to life, that's from Isaiah prophecies of
the Messianic era, right where Eden comes back to the desert.
So there's a there's a mix of indigenous paganism Islamic
elements with a lot of the terms of the Mahdi.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So uh, and then you've also got Catholicism in their
Orange Catholic Bible. All that mixes into this bizarre stew.
Speaker 3: It's funny you don't mention the Orange I mean that
would it would sound so strange, the Orange Catholic Bible.
I mean, he kind of blew it with that name.
He could have had something a little bit different, but
you didn't. They didn't have anything about that in the film.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's in the novel because the novel sort of
drops you in the midst of this universe that's had
this long history of you know, humans expanding into it.
It's the year ten thousands, right, ten thousand one one,
So humans have colonized the universe, the known universe. They're
all over all the planets, and there's there's the return
of nobility. As you said, there's been the Butler engine
had where AI's banned.
Speaker 3: Well, see they didn't say that in the film either.
They I wish they would have. They could have done
that in a few lines. They could have done that
in a conversation reference. How there is this but Larry
and g Hod Because you're kind of as a viewer,
you know, me coming in not having read any of
the books. You see how they're fighting and they have
these weird shield things. Why aren't they just why don't
you just shoot that guy?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: You think it's stuff like this, And that's actually that's
actually answered in the but Larry and question because supposedly,
I guess the shields. I heard this. I watched the
like a review video, and apparently, and this sounds ridiculous,
This is kind of stupid. The shields. So Frank Herbert
had these magical shields that they wear, these tech shields
that they wear, and it's like a plasma shield and
if you shoot it with a laser gun, it's a
it makes an atomic explosion. So nobody can use that anymore.
That that sounded absolutely ridiculous, But I guess as a
plot device it kind of works because the idea of chivalry,
the sword play knife.
Speaker 4: Exactly the way to reintroduce classic stuff, just like the
nobility is still there, right.
Speaker 3: So we got to do it like a medieval have
it kind of be like a medieval vibe to it,
which is it works visually, it's fantastic. I just wish
they'd explained that in the films.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's why the slow baited. The phrases
the slow blade kind of trace the shields.
Speaker 3: Right, slow blade, he's the shield, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the bullets that we have to like, you know,
engage in this hand combat and like you know, slowly
put your knife in or you just have there's also
these you know, kind of ancient traditions of what they
call con lee, which is where you you offer to
settle vendettas in classic one to one sword fighter warfare.
So it's like a future that's science fiction and there's
spaceships and space travel and warp speeds or whatever, but
there's all of these medieval elements in that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, even like Victorian because when when to the duel,
you know, the idea of the duels. I feel like
in the Victorian age that was so popular. You even
see in like nineteenth century Dostoevsky and I.
Speaker 4: Take out a white glove and I slapped you, and sure.
Speaker 3: Sure, but you know the character and the underground man
in a Notes from the Underground, he's obsessed with dueling,
and it's this, yeah, it's like this western import that
made its way into the Russian elite from England and France,
and it was this romanticized, you know, macho thing back then.
The duel. I mean, it's very symbolically rich and works
really well. And you know, you have the elements of
the past, the present, in the future all there, and
the imagery and the aesthetics of Doune, which I think
is why a lot of people, you know, a lot
of people on the like Twitter spectrum, because if you
look at Twitter, the arguments are hilarious. You know, people
freaking out about no, you guys, you can't like Paul.
You're not supposed to like Paul. Look at this video
of dni Venuve saying why Paul's a bad guy, and
then these people on the right are like, no, he's
you know, I don't care. It's based. You know, there's
like the character what's his face? The dude from no
Country from old man Javier Bardem. He has a line
where he's I don't care what you believe I believe.
So a lot of the kind of more right wing
Christian guys though, respond with that meme, I don't care
if you believe I believe Paul is the lisan Al
Gaib And then the you know, the the leftists are mad.
They're like, no, religion is fake. It's all just fake.
The Benijesterrad invented it. So the conversation that's being had
culturally about it really gives you an interesting microscope into
where we're at in this heyitgeist, which you know, any
piece of art, it's going to have multiple ways. It
can be interpreted. Different people are going to take it
in different ways, and I think that's where it does
definitely works with Dune.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's that golden path. So I was I wanted
to check myself on this to make sure I was right.
Speaker 3: The golden path is how I interpret it, which is correct,
and how everyone else interprets it is absolutely wrong. Low IQ.
Speaker 4: So some of the done nerds are saying humanity's future
extinction is seen as guaranteed due to the fact that
humanity was all grouped under an imperium, the banner of
the empire. This meant that every human be affected by
the decisions made at the highest level of that government.
So a serious threat to the imperium meant that a
serious threat to the human race would ensue. The Golden
Path sought to diversify humanity across the universe to nullify
the weakness of the Empire. Paul refused to follow this path,
as he was essentially still a good person, and spent
his life trying to undo the myths unsuccessfully that he
had caught that he had created in order to do
the Jihad or whatever. So but then somebody says, oh,
this is actually what Paul told himself. It's a lot,
But now I think that the storyline is that there
is a Golden Path, and that Paul chose the path that,
even though it had the Jihad, was like the only
one that that was was the salvation and human race.
And then somebody says, well, Herbert died before he finished
the novel, so we don't exactly know, but most people don't.
Speaker 3: I don't think he knew what he was doing.
Speaker 4: It's like he was just making up as he went.
Speaker 3: It seems he wrote the first novel, people read it
in a certain way. He got annoyed with how people
read it, wrote Dune Messiah to got a retcon how
people were seeing it. I mean there's and then every
book after that he's he's probably getting lost in his
own sauce a little bit because it's it's such a
massive undertaking to create this literary world such as this.
I mean, you almost seem like you'd go mad trying
to write all those That sounds like he kind of
did it.
Speaker 4: Here's another super nerd saying, so the Golden Path was there. Yeah,
this is what I thought to save humanity from a
future existential threat. And it says this is correct. Although
Herbert didn't finish everything in the series. In chapter House Done,
there are two people that are quote called the they're
casting the net. You never find out who exactly they are,
but they're an existential threat from the Golden Path that
Paul chose. They are either AI bots of the future
I forgot AI makes a comeback. That's right in the
AI Bots of the the future are the I think
that most people think that's the existential threat, and it's
the same threat that happened before the but lerryne Hot
they're gonna come back and they think that AI is extinct,
but somehow secretly AI survived on some planet. I think
it's the ben at a Lax that keep the AI
going or something.
Speaker 3: Would is that the Space Guild like the Space.
Speaker 4: These are the the weird, like they're like their own
hermit race of people that engage in the genetic manipulation.
And even though AI is banned, I think there's they're
the ones that are like secretly still doing it. So
in Dune Messiah, they're the ones that create the the
Duncan clone husk figure that's a trap for Paul. So
AI is supposed to be extinct, somehow there was They
were running back into the known universe from something the AI.
They never say what it is, uh whatever. Paul and
Lido the Second saw the worm sun Leado took the
direct action needed to put humanity for sure onto the
Golden Path. Paul was afraid. So apparently some of the visions.
Speaker 3: Of all these these people are I can't imagine having
this much of the lower in my head all the time.
Speaker 4: This is super nerd. So apparently some of the reasons
that we see Paul freaking out in his visions like
in the movie Too is because he was super afraid
of the price that would be paid by choosing the
Golden Path.
Speaker 3: Which because he knew billions are going to.
Speaker 4: Die, right, No, no, no, his freaking offspring going to
be a worm? Dude.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, boy, I can't even I can't even vision.
How are they going to do that? That's there's no way. Look,
just leave it at two Films Messiah.
Speaker 1: Venue.
Speaker 4: You look, the artwork is awesome. If you look up
the pictures of them, he looks. He looks pretty wild,
kind of like a long skinny job of the hut.
Speaker 3: He's just gonna be like he's like Gumby, He's like
gummy a worm.
Speaker 4: Hey, I'm gonna say, what would you do if they
make Dune worm boy Dune and they just put Gumby
in there? That would be crazy. It's like Villas level
of production. But it's just gummy, dude.
Speaker 3: I'm looking at I'm looking at some of these funny
tweets and just people you know, arguing about it, giving
their takes that this one's I like this one. Herbert
didn't understand the underlying subtext of his own creation, which
ironically in a way mirrors the situation of his protagonist. Paul. Wow,
that's actually that's pretty insightful. I like that a lot,
this one. I don't think you have to claim properties
like doing his right wing. You can just enjoy the
sublime nature of a tip related liberal writing the most
base shit imaginable, like a fat boy on a diet
sneaking a cookie at midnight. That's a great take. That's like,
some of these tweets are better reviews. Then then you're
gonna read on the credit exactly.
Speaker 4: Look up Lido the Worm. You got to see this
guy though.
Speaker 3: All right, let's we'll pull the worm.
Speaker 4: If you can show the crowd, they'd be funny too,
because if they make this, that's that's gonna.
Speaker 1: Be some wow stuff.
Speaker 4: Let's see. Oh man, so that's the gold that's the
golden path.
Speaker 1: Is Lido the Worm?
Speaker 3: The Worm? All right, let's see I can pull this
up on screat. While I'm doing this, let me give
a little reminder to the body, to the audience. All
the bigots on the nerds, the chad nerds from Jay
Dyer's channel, the biggots from over here. There is a
link in the description. You can drop a super chat
if you got questions, if you got anything to say,
if you want to just yell at me and Jay,
how we don't understand the depth of Frank Herbert's world
created here in Dune. If we totally missed it, and
we we totally missed the point that only you understand,
maybe make sure to drop a super chat via stream
labs or via YouTube. Try to pull this up.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is like, you know, how, you know
how some people treat certain things like Star Wars as
a religion, kind of like super nerd Like, I'm surprised
that this isn't treated more a religion. But I think
it's so obscure, so out there that actually takes a
pretty high IQ person to really get into noon. So
maybe that person is a little super smart think of
it as a religion.
Speaker 3: Perhaps, but or.
Speaker 4: Just maybe it's tozy. Maybe maybe we have yet seeing
the emergence of the Dune religion. Maybe maybe Frank Herbert
was actually writing at what he thought might be a
future religion.
Speaker 3: I don't know, so which which character in doing Universe?
Which character you j Baron harkinin right? For sure?
Speaker 4: I'm I'm obviously perpetual stank face. Hi.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, she's the greatest character, resting smelly face CHANI.
Speaker 4: I'm warm boy. I want to be a leader of
the Second, the.
Speaker 3: One, the second.
Speaker 4: Okay, who are you interest, I'm Jessica.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jessica, that's my wife's name.
Speaker 4: I know exactly.
Speaker 3: It's a pretty meta. I know some of these portrayals of.
Speaker 4: War, we could get into like a a familials, you know,
war with Chase. You could kill Chase and then Chase
could possess you and you could be like two consciousnesses
in one.
Speaker 3: People keep talking about some Chase person that I'm supposed
to know. I don't understand how like who this person
is is. There's apparently somebody on the Internet tries to
act like he's related to me or something. His name
might be Chased. I don't know.
Speaker 4: There's a troll LARPer running around.
Speaker 3: Stalker. Yeah no, I'm clearly what's his face? Wroth Fade Fade,
rothschild fail, I'm the I'm the Space Bankers. And then
I love.
Speaker 4: In David Lynch when I love how Sting plays Fate.
He's just a totally ridiculous person.
Speaker 3: I have to watch it.
Speaker 4: You got to watch the rest of it, because they
actually imply that the Baron might be like touching. I mean,
it doesn't show it, but it's like they have this
weird kind of like like lusty sort.
Speaker 3: Of oh creepy. Well, he's the baron in the books, right,
is supposedly he's a he's a he's a did he's
a diddy? You use diddy now for for dealers A diddy?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in the They have the hard cone
is install heart plugs because they're kind of psycho and
they actually enjoy killing so that they'll pull this plug
out and your your blood just strains out.
Speaker 3: This is I mean, they're so evil. The Hearkenings are
so evil.
Speaker 4: They're also cannibalistic. That's the thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're cannibals. They're fat, they have ugly aesthetic. They're
aesthetically disgusting. They're like translucent, they have no skin tone.
But some people were making the critique of well, of course,
you know, the the bad guys in the film are
all like the white guys, and then the diverse people
beat up the white guys. But I mean, Herbert wrote
the book, right, didn't he just did he describe the
Hearkening as being uh like translucent, super pale buy no
freaks or how question.
Speaker 4: I remember, I can't remember they had the red hair
or not or who exactly what they're supposed to be,
But they definitely come off as like, I don't know,
some kind of I mean, they're definitely aberrant and they're
not just like pedo cannibal degenerates. They're actually really brutal
to the fremen. And so when House the Trades takes
over them, the freemen are blown away because the the
Trade's family is like like they're they engage in alms giving,
like they're they're known as a righteous family. So I
like the fact that, I mean, if you read the story,
like the Trades are a righteous household or righteous family,
they they do virtuous things. The Harknans are absolutely discussing
and degenerate, and it's antipedo.
Speaker 3: So it's anti so it's anti fat, it's anti anti glutton,
anti pudo. And they're also well it's the boy they're
boy diddlers or whatever, right, I mean, they're like little
boys the o the Hearken in. So they're just total degenerate,
completely evil scum. The Traadees righteous alms giving, treat people well,
learn their cultures, aren't just there purely to exploit them,
want a symbiotic relationship. So I think I think it's
it's cool how he you know, he didn't make it
to where they're just all they're all colonists, like or
you know, get rid of the evil colonists, like the
colonial mean.
Speaker 4: Coming to Paul's dad's leader of the just. He's known
as leader of the Just. They wanted to and if
you remember, Christopher Walkin says, your dad was a weak man, right,
He's like, your dad was weak and that's why he
needed to go. He was too good for this kind
of life that's kind of imperial politics.
Speaker 3: So I remember the line that lead of the just
he says to Paul in the first film. He says,
a good leader, a good leader doesn't want power, but
I forget what the exact line is. A good leader
doesn't want to lead, but he does it because he
has to. Basically, it's kind of like a take up
your cross and lead Paul. So there's there's so much
indicating that the Tredees are righteous. So it's kind of
funny that Herbert would just expect you to you know think, oh, no,
you know, it's so dangerous to have a charismatic leader, Like,
why is it dangerous to have a charismatic leader? I
guess he fleshes that out a little bit later on
because of Paul is you know, I guess the charismatic
leader can be wanting power for the wrong reasons, Paul
perhaps having vengeance on his mind. Is you know, is
not a virtuous trait. But it seems almost like Frank
Herbert in his writing these novels and writing the story,
he almost had a hang up about power itself, monarchy itself,
even though it seems to be the natural order of
the universe, even in the Dune universe, monarchy is natural.
But it's like, well, even if a good guy comes
to the throne, then it's still bad. It's just like
the nature of power itself can corrupt or inevitably does corrupt.
I guess he's trying to say, well, so.
Speaker 4: The right the first warning is that if we think
about the existing universe with Emperor Christopher Walkin, it's not
that bad. There's stability, I mean, there's degenerously the harcone is,
but like it's not a universal Johaba with a bunch
of death. Hall's revolution is debatable at first, and I
think you're probably right that because he's writing during the
Cold War, you know, the jfk assassination happened. There's a
great essay in dom Aside at the beginning about historical
setting when he wrote the sequel, and it's kind of
a warning about the temptations of too much power. But
I think you're right that as the novels progress, it's
almost like he thinks, what I mean, we're going to
get back to if we're going to have an empire piece,
it can't just be a mere man. It's got to
be something more than man. And so it ends up
being a worm man hybrid, something more than man, beyond man,
because man isn't ever going to achieve this, this utopia,
so it's got to be something more than man. And
so even though it does occur in the story and
Paul doesn't end up a villain, he's a Paul's a
tragic hero, I guess is the way to put it.
Like he's a So tell you talking to the chase
altar in your head, that's.
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, I muted so the audience couldn't hear that,
but you could hear me yelling at my dog. That's
that's what I call my alter, called the chase alter
in your head, my dog, that's the thing is like
when I when I, when I took I took so
much of this spice milange, and I got an altar.
That is. Her name is Dahlia, and she's a dog.
She sometimes barks at nothing, a great dog, but she
just once she starts barking, her echo goes against Like
she barks, and her freaking echo hits the mountains and
comes back at her, and she hears the bark come
back at her, and then she just starts looping. So
it's she's caught the loop right now, barking at her.
Speaker 4: Own that's bark wits level. We got dog altars in
your head. That's that's fa That's right.
Speaker 3: Ye dogs are funny, man. She'll bark at her own
she'll bark at her own looping echo. And then also
when she was a puppy, she tried to like fight
her u her reflection in the mirror when she first
saw it, growling at it and barking at it.
Speaker 4: You're engaging and basically Jose dogado level of mynd control
and coult operations on your dog to brainwash it. Have
a halter. That's crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Bena ben a dog, Ben a Jesuit dog
handled Sorry about that. No, that seemed rude because I
thought I h I thought I muted it so you
couldn't hear it. But it was just the Someone says
Jay doesn't Oh yeah, j probably don't even like dogs.
He doesn't have dogs.
Speaker 4: I have really, you know, pretty bad allergies, so I
don't and we travel quite a bit.
Speaker 3: So cats, man, I'm super allergic cats, can't stand them.
Speaker 4: I am too, But even dogs kind of bug me.
So yeah, I wouldn't mind having a It's just kind
of it's difficult if you travel a lot.
Speaker 3: Having a pet, kind of herd you have, like you
have your people, you have the help.
Speaker 4: I don't allow them to have a dog because it
would be detracting from their focus on me.
Speaker 3: No, what I'm saying, Yeah, what I'm saying is like
they're you know, they're probably a better pet.
Speaker 4: Did you ever watch the Teal Swan documentary where she
actually says that. Nope, She's like, I don't want any
of my inner circle to actually have children. Because how
are they going to focus on me if they have children?
She's not joking, dude, She's a nutcase. Man, Can you
believe that? That's it? She actually says that in the documentary,
and then she's mad that people are mad at her.
As she's portrayed in the documentary, It's like, did you're
a psycho? What are you talking about?
Speaker 3: You know, there's a new cult documentary that I love
has won, the Cult of the Mother God. Have you
seen this?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 4: I have watched multiple things on her. I have not
seen that. But another great thing on her to watch
is her Doctor Phil episode is pretty wild.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I was thinking maybe we could we can
analyze that one. Oh yeah, I think there's three episodes
so far.
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, did you see do you remember that
blonde psychologist girl that I interviewed on Colts maybe a
year ago? Okay, yeah, we discussed some Mother God and that,
so we covered it for maybe on a fifteen twenty minutes.
It'd be great to do a whole deep dive on it.
But yeah, the Doctor Phil episode is great because it's
classic Doctor Phil or He's just.
Speaker 1: Like, now, is it possible? Could you conceive the possibility
that maybe you aren't God.
Speaker 3: Do we need doctor Phil as the That's who should
have been the Emperor? Right, Christopher walk in, Dude, Christopher Walking.
It was kind of a weird choice.
Speaker 4: That was the only criticism I have on the whole
movie is I mean, her, her sassy girl boss stuff
is a little annoying. But yeah, like Christopher Walker is
such an absurd, weirdo guy character all the time, Like
he doesn't come off a cunning you know, like aged
sage emperor.
Speaker 3: But now so we need you need Jay to do
doctor Phil as the Emperor delegating in between House of
Trades and House Hearkening.
Speaker 1: Well, we need to talk about who this what deb is? Okay?
Do you is it possible, Paul, that maybe you're not
the lizon O guy?
Speaker 3: Do you think that maybe, maybe, just just maybe you
took a little too much of the spies? Paul?
Speaker 2: Do you think you may be the spy's habit is
getting in between your relationship with your grandfather the hearkening.
Perhaps some rehabilitation could could bring about a better relationship
in the known universe.
Speaker 3: About Deb what he does all.
Speaker 4: The time is like every time he's talking to the
craziest person. I watched like twenty of the Best Doctor Phil,
where it's always the craziest person you could think of.
Ye I was actually a pretty good approach to this
because he says, oh, look.
Speaker 1: You believe you're gone, but also there might be other
explanations for what you believe. But could it be? Is it?
Speaker 4: He'll always ask him, is it possible that there's another
explanation and it's maybe the drugs you took?
Speaker 2: Rights Is it possible that you don't see the future
but you see in deluded space, acid visions in your stupid,
deluded head, Maldo, do you think that maybe possible?
Speaker 4: And if they say no, and then he'll say why not?
Speaker 1: Why is that not Paul?
Speaker 4: And then they'll say some crazy thing, and then you know,
then he can determine whether they're reasonable. That tells him
whether they have any reasoning at all. I think is
why he does that.
Speaker 3: But what about doctor Phil. Doctor Phil is really the
actual head of the Benigester and he just plays kind
of dumb, but he's really he's like the master manipulation.
Speaker 4: You know, you want to hear something funny about darka Philip?
I forget who we were with? Uh, somebody who was
had been I can't remember for somebody who to makeup
or something. I did have makeup done.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know this, but when I yeah,
before the stream.
Speaker 4: No, no, before I went on O A N when
we went to l A, I literally actually did have
my makeup done.
Speaker 6: So nice.
Speaker 4: That's because that's a joke we make. We make this
joke all the time. Oh man, you like I thought
you would think it's funny.
Speaker 3: That I'll never be on your level. Now like you've
you've actually you've gone meta and you actually got your makeup.
Speaker 4: Picture from the makeup room in an where I was like, Tristan,
you understand, like I literally.
Speaker 3: Do have a makeup You have to frame you with
the makeup on like behind you and then and you
could have it like on your whiteboard. You can just
you know, remind me of every once in awhile, like
Tristan never had this, never will you will never have.
Speaker 4: Your make Make sure that you never enter this industry blackballed.
Speaker 3: In fact, everyone right, you know, Jay's just going around
l A just like bad mouth like people like who
are you even talking about? Who is this from the.
Speaker 4: Makeup workers, Like you're only back black belt from having makeup,
Like you can go on any show, it's just they'll
never do makeup for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm completely black balled from from.
Speaker 4: The Makeup Union, the Labor Makeup Union, Labor Union.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was that a do with doctor Phil. Doctor
They're like, we're going to use the doctor Phil.
Speaker 4: How they used to work with doctor Phil. I'm trying
to remember who it was, so I apologize if you're
watching it and I'm not giving you credit. I just
can't remember. But they had this great story that that
they were traveling with doctor Phil a couple of years
ago and they were maybe doing security for him or something,
but they couldn't believe that wherever doctor Phil would go, dude,
everybody's moms and and aunts, like they like crowd him
like he's Boomer Elvis. Dude, Like the women go crazy
and will like fight to like touch doctor Phil. Isn't
that crazy?
Speaker 3: It was like Oprah, you know Daytime TV. It's all.
Speaker 4: The women.
Speaker 3: I believe it. It's not because it's not because he's
attractive or something. It's just because they watched that daytime TV.
What time is he on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're like they're like entrance yeah, he he.
Speaker 3: They spend more time with him than they do with
their husband. There you go, like they know him, he
knows them, he's there.
Speaker 4: He's They were talking about how like they have to
protect him from like the like the the ants and
the boomer women that were as bum rush him.
Speaker 3: Day, just getting bum rushed by wine ants trying to
catch a and and he doesn't have that many hairs
to pluck off, you know, he's trying to get one
hair from his head to make a little little doll
out of him.
Speaker 4: So he's like the Elvis of like wine Ants exactly.
Speaker 3: It was wild. I didn't realize that the guy that
played uh, Fade Roth played Elvis.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Austin Butler or whatever.
Speaker 3: He was so good it's Fade Roth. And then I
I like watch the videos on YouTube and he yeah,
he just looks completely different and uh, outside of the film, Yeah, he.
Speaker 4: Did really good. The only thing I thought was a
little weird was that he was talking exactly like the
baron which it was.
Speaker 1: It was a little odd, but.
Speaker 3: The cultural thing they talked like this.
Speaker 1: That was good.
Speaker 3: That sound just like a yeah, makeupsuge, may your makeup
smudge and be faulty?
Speaker 4: May makeup smudge, mayo.
Speaker 5: Makeup smudge, and run with your sweat beats.
Speaker 4: Well, doctor come over here reading Doctor phil tonight he's
gonna be like, well, I can tell you Tristan will
never have makeup on my show. Wait, look he will.
Speaker 3: He gets his head plucked every day by multiple Guatemalan women.
That's just that's indulgent. That's too indulgent.
Speaker 4: Uh, you gotta watch the Mother Okay, now you have
to watch the Mother God. Uh, doctor Phillips, I'll find
it for you. That's great, I'll find it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll watch that. Shoot that over. We got some
super chats over here from the biggots and the nerds.
What some guys technographics at nineteen ninety nine through super chat,
thank you so much, says richies are not forbidden, but
the pride of them is riches. Not he spelled at richies,
but that's probably an auto spelled riches are not forbidden?
Speaker 4: Is this the proverbs of one deep?
Speaker 3: It's actually Saint John Chris. Riches are not forbidden, but
the pride of them is Yeah, Greg, I think.
Speaker 4: There's a reference to the desert fathers in Messiah.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's because Paul is gonna end up
having to go and be obi Wan as a hermit.
And I think there's a reference at the back to
the Desert Fathers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Greg donated ten bucks. Didn't even say anything, Thank you, Greg.
That was via stream Labs. Maximus Pike, Canadian five dollars
through Superchat, says straight Fire. Dave Gamillionaire four nine nine
through super Chat, thank you very much, didn't even say anything.
Rybranium donated five bucks, says worm Boy twenty twenty four.
It's gonna be huge. We're gonna make a recorts great again.
Jimmy Gray, give me creez Cepi, Joeb Joe, basically Harkonan.
Speaker 4: I don't know what do you do. Who's gonna make
the rags great? Gonna be great again? That's great.
Speaker 3: William Kreen donated fifteen bucks, says does a setting of
space or space travel versus Earth based movies usually go
along with God being impersonal or separated from creation. That's interesting.
I mean with Dune God, I know that with Dune
there seems to be a belief, a general belief in God.
Like Jay said at the beginning, it's kind of a
syncretistic perennialist vision of God. I'd say from the first
in the first two films, i'd say God, there is
a God that's present, but it's more of a.
Speaker 4: Possibly they call the Maker, the maker of all, you know,
these kinds of.
Speaker 3: Phrases, the maker the clock like the great clockmaker who
just made the universe, and man can kind of just
try to ascend if they find enough spice or something.
Speaker 4: To be deistic, I'm not sure, but actually it seems
like the freemen. The freemen are more like like they
think there's prophecies and there's divine miracles. You remember, because
because Silgar keeps saying so miracle, right, So yeah, they
believe in the miraculous.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, But but there are all these different
takes on what God is. The Benajesrits seem to look
at the universe as a giant tool, uh to try
to use to ascend to more power over the known universe.
So that would be kind of almost an you know,
gnostic possibly with a deist God at the end of
the At the top of the ladder, I.
Speaker 4: Should mention that actually there's a in the Dune universe.
There's actually a plethora of religious traditions. I don't know
if we're ever supposed to think one of them is true.
But in the future there's an apologist for Socratic Christianity.
So they actually gets an apologetics. This is how crazy
it is, Like he'll reference another desert followers and apologetics.
It's weird. But there's some sort of form of Christianity
that's I think different than the Orange Caloic Bible, which
is called Socratic Christianity. And so there's citations from this
book of the the Socratic apologist.
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Speaker 4: Chad is kind of like spice.
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chat here from Big Boss ten dollars through super chat
on YouTube says have all have you all heard about
this new syop group that's the first to use four letters,
that's backed by the elites. Oh man, it's called the icup.
Speaker 1: Ah, whoa, what.
Speaker 3: Bro I've been gotten with that one since Uh it's
the I cup icup. That's like that's fourth grade man,
that's uh back back when the power range.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I need to hear a these nuts.
Joe looking there somewhere like remember D's nuts?
Speaker 3: No Jay, Oh, come on, now, what are you even
talking about?
Speaker 4: I I'm sending you here. There is a there's two
different versions of a fan edit. This is like Megan
nerd tier stuff. Are you ready for it? I'm ready?
Speaker 3: Are ready?
Speaker 4: So, because there were so many complaints about the David
Lynch version, one of the problems was that he didn't
have final cut, and so the studio made them cut
his version down to under two hours for the theatrical release,
which he felt like, under two hours, I think that
I think the theatrical release is right around or something
like that.
Speaker 3: So that's crazy because danve he got like three hours
for each film. He's got six.
Speaker 4: Well that's crazy exactly. But so David Lynch was mad
because he felt like nobody would understand the story, and
of course a lot of the audience at the time
in the eighties felt like no body could understand what
was going on, and they didn't. Even with the Princess
Erilon narration, they still couldn't get it. So some super
nerds put together what they call the Dune Fan Edit.
It's an almost three hour version with all the deleted scenes,
and there's another there's a separate version which has the
storyboards that show the butlery and hot So if you
really want to nerd super nerd version, you can get
a torrent of the four hour Dune which has all
of that.
Speaker 3: Well, Jay say, we're Jay's We're gonna watch this right now.
It's going to be a nine hour stream. First we
talk about Dune for two hours, and then we're gonna
so we're just gonna make soyjack faces about the nine
hour version.
Speaker 4: Of So here is the three hour version for you
without the storyboards, but there's also the four hours version
with the storybok. So I'm like a super David Lynch
Dune nerd. I had to go find the full version.
Speaker 3: Man, would you would you say you like the Lynch
version better than the DENI believe the.
Speaker 4: Version not better. I mean it's it's obviously, you know,
so many levels of superior film with the production and
the because he has so much more time to tell
so much more of the story. There are elements of
the David Lynch version that are not in the Dennis
version that I do like, so DENI I'll never I'll
never say it right. If I'm in an interview, if
I'm talking to Dennis, I'll call you dentist. What's up?
He's gonna say that, don't care?
Speaker 3: Wow, Wow, Absolutely no respect for the the greatest, greatest
filmmaker you ever be. Some people do, Some people love.
I mean, I thought it were great, man, I thought
some of the better sci fi movies out there, for sure.
But some people are just like, this is the masterpiece
of all masterpieces, the greatest films.
Speaker 4: I would say they're masterpieces. I think he I'm impressed.
I really do feel like it's we haven't seen movies
like this since Lord of the Rings or something like that.
Speaker 3: I mean that well, the second one was just visually,
I mean even I think there were I think the
storytelling was pretty solid. Could have been a little bit better,
just little details like well, how come I didn't know
about the butlerry and jihad and I had to have
some super nerd tell me about it. Little details like
that could have been improved, but overall the story was engrossing.
It was you left you thinking different people have different
takes on it and argue about it, which is you know,
really it's a sign of the sign of a good film.
And I mean visually it was. I found myself sometimes
getting lost in the story of like like not even
paying attention to what's going on because I'm just looking
at the cinematography thinking, oh, wow, that's a crazy shot.
You know, how did they do this? So I for
the second film. I've only seen both of them one time,
but yeah, I definitely look forward to seeing the second
one again.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I really would like you to watch the lynch
first and contrast some of the elements, and then you'll
see too where I think Dennis included some of the
spirit of the lunch.
Speaker 3: Maybe Deny, Deny, Dennis Denny. It's like a tick anytime
somebody says that you have to.
Speaker 4: You're the spurgy like nerd thing you pronounce his.
Speaker 3: Name, there's but there, there's like a an absolute but
Leary and ghat is going to be necessary to remove
all of these video essays from these Dune Part two
nerds who are just flipping out about how great the
movie is every time I open YouTube now, because I
watched a few people a few of other people's like
analysis or in summaries, and now all I get is
just recommendations of Dune Part two video essay. This changes everything.
Dune part two sci fi will never be the same.
It's every single suggestion on YouTube now. So I'm about
to do a but lerry and Jihat and all you
video on videos.
Speaker 4: Anybody said they didn't like it, it isn't. I mean,
I take that. I saw one guy writing that he
didn't think it was that good, but pretty much everybody
else is pretty pretty.
Speaker 3: I have a friend who told me on Twitter today
that he's just like Chiney ruined it for me, and
it was just, you know, he he didn't like it.
He thought it was too much you know, space. He
said he thought there was too much modern political uh
stuff underlying it. But I don't know, I kind of disagree.
I think Chawnny Chohanny wasn't an awful character. I mean,
she wasn't. She wasn't like screaming, annoying.
Speaker 4: The rest of it doesn't, I mean most a lot
of I mean, it's pretty pretty faithful to the book.
They just deviate with the chawn character. That's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like when you when you see her for
what she is. She's supposed to be the character that
the audience uh identifies with. And I thought it was
kind of funny that at the end the character that's
supposed to represent the audience is left alone crying, rage, crying,
trying to summon a worm to hang out alone on her.
Speaker 4: Well, I'll give you a one little nugget too. There's
another exactly, there's another reason why he might have done
that with her character.
Speaker 3: Is that.
Speaker 4: In this in the in doing Messiah, what's going to
happen is, without giving it too much away, there's going
to be an intrigue between Eralon and Chawny, where at
the behest of the Reverend Mother, it's all about who
will have Paul's offspring.
Speaker 3: Ah, Yeah, he's got a sire a child for the
Bena Jesuits.
Speaker 4: So the Reverend Mother gets Princess Erolon to give Chawni
secretly in an mortivation so she doesn't give birth, and
the hope is that Erolin will get pregnant and then
the Benny Jesuit, the Reverend Mother we be able to
control Paul's offspring. But Paul eventually figures this plot out,
and uh yeah, so so Chawny. So Chawnie has to
play this role of getting screwed over, not because of Paul.
Paul doesn't really do it, but Paul figure out what's
going on. And Iroline is also not a villain. She
doesn't end up being villain.
Speaker 3: Well, and you know, I forgot to mention this too.
This is another fascinating thing about this film is that
it's openly anti infanticide, right, I mean, it's you know there,
life starts at conception in the Dune universe. Apparently you
got the fetus is one of the main characters. Now,
of course the fetus I guess later becomes evil and
she you know, she goes nuts. But yeah, the Aliyah
and and and Jessica. This is a it's a very
pro life film in a lot of ways. Hierarchy is inevitable,
Monarchy is natural. Everybody craves a king and a careismatic leader.
It seems like a natural thing for people in the
New World to uh crazy, to look for a messiah.
So there you are certain aspects of it that, you know,
you really can't get away from the Christian worldview and
from the truth of even in fiction. So yeah, man,
this was this is a fun one. I'm glad you
got me to watch to watch them, I wouldn't have
I didn't even realize Dune Part one came out. It
just kind of skipped me.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 3: It was off my radar, and I'm glad. I'm glad
you got me to watch these men.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, do watch the David Lunch one sometimes I
want to see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna get the full version with all the
all the deleted scenes and everything, but I I really
want to watch. I want to rewatch part one of
this and then once part two comes out on like
a Blu ray or something, I'd like to.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. It was a great chat. I
had a lot of fun. I was able to nerd
out on doing here. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was fun man, well worth well worth the
wait for sure. I had to wait a little bit
to see the second one. Let me make sure we
got all the super chats red here ah that I
saw one more just pop through Big Bosses, I hear.
It's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm and flap
Jaws space with the tuning fork does a roblink on
Hara Kiki Rock, I need scissors sixty one. Okay, that's
like total schitzo. There's like a bunch of references there
to something. I hear. It's amazing.
Speaker 4: It's like a dune like master PhD and like he's
talking about like stuff.
Speaker 3: I think this guy took too much of that spice Millage.
I think he's I think he's let me spice Millange.
I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm
and flap Jaws Space with the tuning fork does a
roblink on Hara Kiri Rock, I need scissors sixty one.
Speaker 4: Well, but maybe he's got a PhD in this.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, there's probably got twenty references that I
have no idea.
Speaker 4: So here's the whole thing.
Speaker 3: So use the spoon you must. I mean the aesthetics
of that too. I mean, they got a nice aesthetic
on the covers there. But I think I think the film,
I think overall, Denny the New the aesthetics of the
film really carried it, you know. I mean, he he
did a great job with this one. I look forward
to seeing what he does next. I hope. I kind
of wish you would just leave it where it is,
with chatty soyjacking, crying, rage, crying at the worm at
the end, everyone else, Yeah, the atheist is left crying alone, hurt, rage,
raging at the world, where everyone else goes to have
their awesome jihad and build their green planet. But I'm sure,
I'm sure that'll I'm sure he'll wrap it up differently
than that. But uh, yeah, Jay, maybe next week can
do uh, we can do some of these, some of
these cults that wasn't the Mother God cult. That'll be funny.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll do true detective and cults.
Speaker 3: Next. Wait, Big Boss, it's he's there's a metal Metal
Gear Solid references all right, you got me on that one. Man.
I didn't get to play the original Metal Gear Solids.
I didn't have a PS two. Man, I was I
was a I was a pole boy. I got a
I got an N sixty four later, but I didn't
I didn't have that the PS two. Big Boss. Apparently,
Big but Big Boss also maybe you had a little
too much of that spice m lunch tonight.
Speaker 4: This is the novel that will be fitting for you.
Speaker 3: Heretics of dude, I'm sure a lot of the Dune
fans are gonna call me a total You're a total
heretic Nube.
Speaker 4: You know you're dunic exactly. It's like if you don't
get the PhD NERD level Dune references, right, you become
a heretic of Dan. Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of my favorite parts of doing this review though,
was just reading some of the tweets of like some
of the some of these tweets were hilarious, Like one
of them has the the bell curve, the eye at
the IQ bell curve and at the bottom is here.
I'll pull this one. Let's see if I can pull
this one up. The bottom is the bottom of the
bell curve, the point one two. Let's find this.
Speaker 4: The low IQ.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the low IQ. I'm sure you saw. It's like
the low IQ is Paul is the Lassan al Gayib.
The middle of the bell curve, the one hundred IQ
is No, Paul is just a man. And the point
of the story is the danger of prophecy. And then
the you know, one thirty to one forty five and
up IQ is Paul is the Lassan al Gayib.
Speaker 4: That's what I was arguing.
Speaker 3: I got it.
Speaker 4: That's it. I'm on that right side. That's what I
was saying.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 4: Can you send me that meme? I actually I want that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this meme is awesome.
Speaker 4: I'm an actually cool one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll send it to you on Twitter. That's I'm
not gonna pull it up because I got to create
a new scene in OBS and I want to pull
it up. But anyways, oh you big. It's in the chat,
chad Nerds. In the chat, make sure share the video.
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So everybody watching comment down below tell us how wrong
we were, how Paul's not this leisan Al gayib or
why he is the lissan Al gayib or why doctor
Phil definitely should have been, and that you agree with
us that doctor Phil is in the Son all guy,
you and should have played the Emperor. Yes, yeah, big,
it's stay stay, stay away from them worms and we'll
see you guys next time.
Speaker 4: All right, later, doc,