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Speaker 1: All.

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Speaker 2: This is all about our country right now.

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Speaker 3: I love the USA, I love my teammates.

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Speaker 4: It's unbelievable, the US or hockey brotherhood.

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Speaker 3: It's so strong.

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Speaker 4: In that shame.

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Speaker 2: You should be ashamed of yourself, not standing. He should

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be ashamed of yourself. It's the Ricochet Podcast. I'm James Lilyx.

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Stephen Hayward is here and we're going to talk to

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tal Fort Gang about the Democratic Socialists of America. Can't wait,

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Let's have results a podcast. Welcome everybody. It's the Ricochet Podcast,

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number seven hundred and seventy eight. I'm James Lylyx here

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in Minneapolis, calm it seems for the moment, and I'm

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joined by Steven Hayward in California. I presume Charles is

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still out and about. We hope to get him back soon.

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He's not entered the pantheon of hosts who've come and gone.

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He will be with us again. But it's just us

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here to do today with our guests to come, which

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would be fun. And I gotta say USA, right us A.

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So it was like a replay of the old Olympics,

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you know, where we beat the hated Ruskies, except now

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apparently we've got the hated Canadians. And I heard a

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term the other day that just absolutely put me on

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the floor, referring to the Canadians as syrup peans.

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Speaker 4: I had not heard that one.

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Speaker 2: That's good, not bad, not bad. I for one, don't

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like a state of m the t and discord between

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our I mean, they're right up there, they're closed. You know.

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I've been living close to Canada all my days. When

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I was a kid, I used to get in a

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bus when I want to play a contest at the

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Fargo Forum Delivery Boys, and would go up to Winnipeg,

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which was sort of like this mirror image of Minneapolis

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up there. I love the whole civilization out in the

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outskirts and the prairies and the planes and the winds

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swept world. I've been to Canada on the on the

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west coast and seen their monumental architecture and marveled at

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what they did. I like them. But here we are,

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I guess where they don't like us. We'll show you.

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We're not going to go to vacation in Florida. We're

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going to go to Port of Iarta anyway. So the problem,

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Stephen is you may have known is that some people

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were moved to jingoistic displays scoundrel like refuge in patriotism.

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And if you felt bothered by that, said the said

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the Hoff post, you're not alone.

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Speaker 4: Well where do you start? It is a curious Well,

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it's not curious to me. This is quite obvious and

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not surprising that the efflorescence of American patriotism over the

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i think unexpected win of our hockey team over Canada

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in a really revera performance, right, especially that goalie who

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you know, only let one shot through. But I'm not

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surprised that the left is upset about this because well,

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the latest finding out from the Gallup poll people, which

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again does not surprise me. But if you go back

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to two thousand and one, that's the pole Gallup did

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two thousand and one to the president, and it's do

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you have pride in America? And even before nine to eleven,

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but in the years after that, Republicans Democrats were about

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two or three points apart, all around ninety to ninety

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five percent up with pride in America. Well, guess where

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Democrats are today, thirty six percent, down from you know,

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eighty eight percent twenty twenty five years ago, and whereas

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Republicans haven't moved all. You could balance a glass of

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water on the pole line of the time series from

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two thousand and one to now, including when Obama was president.

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In other words, liberals lost their mind when Trump became

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president and they haven't gotten it back and they're not

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going to get it back. Whereas Republicans who didn't like

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Obama worth the darn, they did not abandon their pride

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in the country at all. They didn't make their their

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patriotism contingent on whether they liked the president. So okay,

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that's just another description too long, of course, of Trump

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dearrangement syndrome. But I don't remember yep.

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Speaker 2: To be fair, do you think that they have if

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asked that they would have empirical, sighted sourced reasons for

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not being proud of America anymore? What do you presume

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would be their responses to that?

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Speaker 4: Oh, well, the whole bunch of things. I mean, let's

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leave a side of cliches about fascism, but let's take

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note of the fact that, and I'll assert this that

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the patriotism of most liberals, many liberals, has been superficial

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because and the way they betray this is that think

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about the countries they always say they admire more and

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wish we were more alike. Well, the Scandinavian countries of course,

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but also Canada because they have single payer healthcare and

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gun control and they're all nice up there. Supposedly they're

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not actually nice at all. The way they suppress speech

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in dissantras we saw the last several years. So there's

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always been this envy of liberals of someplace Steltz is

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better than us.

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Speaker 2: So when are that's also pretty darn white, pretty darn white.

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Speaker 4: B Right, Well, I mean two or three more things.

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I mean, I really want to dump on Canada. And

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let's stipulate that Trump was over the top with about

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making Canada the fifty first state and all the rest

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of that. But look, I'll assert this Canada only works,

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and especially it's healthcare system only works, and that is

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badly because they're a free rider in the United States.

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I mean, just on healthcare. If you're an upper middle

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class Canadian and you have to endure a year long

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waiting list for a routine but important procedure, you come

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to the United States. We're their safety valve and it's

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only you know, it's a tiny country. The entire population

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could fit inside California with lots of room to spare.

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I mean, we're bigger than what twice the size of

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Canada almost in California. So it's this big, spread out

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country of just a few cities where most of the

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population lives. But then the other finding out recently, and

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James maybe you saw this is GDP per capita in

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Canada is now lower than GDP per capita in Alabama,

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and this is really causing some embarrassment.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Globe and Mail. The Globe and Mail went

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and did that story, and apparently Alabama in the national

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imagination of Canada consists of just a bunch of hicks

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sitting around with Billy beard cans in a trailer park somewhere,

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or dispossessed, disenfranchised African Americans toiling and fields. And when

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they went there they actually discovered something else. I remember

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somebody talking there was there was some rocket company. I

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don't even know if it was ex or somebody else

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that was saying, you know, we're thinking of opening up

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some operations in Alabama. And the people on Twitter were

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just laughing at them. Alabama, like there's rocket scientists in Alabama. Well, yes,

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quite a few.

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Speaker 5: And when the Globe we heard of NASA Huntsville, right, yeah, right,

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And when when the Globe and Mail went to Alabama,

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it came back with us with a picture of a

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place that was self confident that that was actually inhabiting

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the twenty first century, that had restaurants, that had you know,

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hospitals and stuff.

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Speaker 2: People weren't all living in double wides, single minds. And

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they had to tell people, you know, we are kind

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of wrong about this, and maybe some national self examination

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should be going on. Nah no, no, no, no, let's

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elbows up whatever that means.

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Speaker 4: Well, so let's throw in Mississippi and the comparisons too.

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We've known now for several months when the National Educational

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Assessments came out that Mississippi has been crushing it. I mean,

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they're they have the biggest improvement in reading scores, including

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among their minority children African Americans. And I forget now

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who it was, but there was some liberal might have

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been a politician or at least one of their leading pundits,

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said you know, we ought to pay attention to Mississippi.

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Well you can imagine a reaction on Blue sky right,

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and I don't need to tell listeners have what that?

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How that went? And the other thing is back to Canada.

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Speaker 2: But again I have to stop you. Why is Mississippi

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doing better? What did Mississippi do that made all of

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a sudden their educational metrics.

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Speaker 4: Improved well, higher standards and accountability right, and a basic

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curriculum back to phonics to teach Phoenix rhoenics.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I'm mad. Absolutely well, no, phonics doesn't work.

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What we have to do is whole word teaching where

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they look at the whole word and to it and

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context and no far x. But you know, get hooked

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on that. And apparently that's the trick. That's the one

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weird trick you expect to see, like an Internet ad,

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the one weird trick to make your kids actually read.

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It's genius anyway, So right, your next point on Canada.

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Speaker 4: Well, so you know, the the talking point for our

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country now, at least since Trump came along, as we're

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heading for a civil war. The country's going to fall apart,

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We're gonna break up. But meanwhile, those you know, fuzzy

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warm social democratic Canadians, they look more likely to break

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up than we are. And there's the paradox there that

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I think is explainable. But you know, for years, you know,

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the the Nre French speaking Quebecois have wanted to secede

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and what they had a referendum twenty years ago that

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only narrowly failed. But now Alberta, which is the Texas

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of Canada, right it's the once the one province that

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would surely vote Republican if it were in America, They're

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having a referendum sometime soon about whether they should separate

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from Canada. So I don't know if it'll pass or not.

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I'm not really in touch with Alberton politics beyond what

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I can read in the papers, which means I don't

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know anything. But if that passes, I'll bet the people

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over in Quebec and maybe the Maritimes are going to say, hey,

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wait a minute, and then let's see what happens after that.

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It could be interesting because I don't think it's Mark

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carneg guy you know who want on kind of a

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flu with a you know, an unintended assist from Trump.

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I don't think he's all that popular. I think he's

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heading for cure Starmer territory. In the fullness of time

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with Canadians, and so I think they've got a much

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bigger problem than we do.

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Speaker 2: I think so too. You have to ask yourself what

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defines Canada as a nation? What is it? Well, it's

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this this fusion of I wouldn't say it's a fusion

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of French and English culture. It's just it's two different

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territories that got welld it together into one country. And

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it defines itself by not being American. And in some instances,

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you know you've got you know, television must contain ten

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percent Canadian content, or radio stations must have ten percent.

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I mean, I get the sense of not wanting to

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be overwhelmed by the big, bumptious neighbors to the south,

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especially when you're more well mannered in your own mind,

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and you're kinder, and you are more civilized and all

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the rest of that. But is that enough to hold

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a country together? It is if you hold to the

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old values, if you see yourself as part of an

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inheritor of what we always talk about it the Western

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civilization tradition, If you see yourself in that as a

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different offshoot of the themes that made America America. In Mexico,

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Mexico for that matter, you have a really interesting North

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American continent with Mexico, Canada, the United States, three different

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takes on Western CIEV, and two of them quite similar.

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But if you don't have that, and you have a

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rootless sort of political philosophy unmoored from any of that,

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and going towards the usual prog utopianism, then you really

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don't have much to hold the country together. You just

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have an idea of yourself as being well, what it

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means to be Canadian is to be tolerant and generous

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and empathetic, and those things usually just end up in graft,

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failed institutions, open borders, and diluting of your own civilization.

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So good luck with that. I mean, I don't want

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to live long enough to see Canada split up. I

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think that would be really weird. I don't know how

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it would work. Berta is its own country, the middle

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part kind of becomes America, Quebec becomes a separate French

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en clive, and the maritime province has also become America.

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I guess it's no longer something that's ridiculous to even consider.

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Speaker 4: Well, it could be if Trump were And I don't

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mean this as an insult of Trump, like it will sound.

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But if Trump were more historically facile to put it

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that way, he probably revived the old fifty four to

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forty your fight slogan from this, you know, the middle

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of the nineteenth century, right right.

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Speaker 2: I always love that fIF fight. That's a great one,

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typically new and Tyler too. You know, you grew up

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knowing these things, thinking I'm I'm old, I'm a rotary

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phone old. Well, we had a State of the Union

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speech which dialed it up, but didn't dial it up

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in the way that people might have thought it was.

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Some people said it was more disciplined, that it didn't

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have the sort of wobbly, meandering middle that Trump does,

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that it was focused to end, that it had an intention,

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and that was to create a lot of television ads

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for the upcoming mid terms. And I assume you listen

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to every single minute of it. Give us your version

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of the highlights and perhaps the low lights.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, amazingly, I did watch the whole thing, and I sir,

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I'm on record for a long time of hating State

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of the Union speeches and wishing we'd get rid of them.

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I mean, the listeners should know that what we're used

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to our entire adult lifetime is something that was really

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brought back by Woodrow Wilson. He had a deliberate purpose,

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which was to, I won't say humiliate Congress, but try

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to overawe Congress by saying, I'm the boss. The president's

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the leader of the country, not the Congress. In Article one,

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because all presidents but I think maybe Jefferson gave one

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speech to Congress, but all presidents in the nineteenth century

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sent letters letters. And by the way, the Article two

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says the president shall, well, from time to time submit

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information on the state of the Union. It doesn't say

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every year. Most of them did the annual message to Congress.

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But I wish we'd go back to that. That said,

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and I did write something about how Reagan he had

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relatively short state of the Unions. Yeah, in one of

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the State of the Unions was only thirty eight minutes long,

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and he delivered them crisply and even with all the

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applause interruption. And they started getting longer under George H. W. Bush,

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and then under Clinton they became almost castro esque. And yes, well,

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my joke about Trump the other night is that if

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we measured this on the castro scale. That speech was

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a half castro.

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Speaker 2: A half castro. I like that. Well, the part that

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people are getting upset about is the part about how

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we have to close the borders, that illegal immigrants are

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coming here to take the jobs of people. They're straining

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the medical system, they're straining the schools, and we have

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to do something about this right now. Oh wait a minute,

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that was Clinton in ninety six. People were playing back

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and forth versions of that. It just shows you how

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much the landscape has shifted. So yeah, I'm with you shorter.

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If you have to do it at all, a letter

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would be nice. Maybe put it on a postcard, and

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that's I want a federal government. You can drun in

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a bathtub in a state of the Union. You can

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put it in a postcard. Yeah, well, but oh sure,

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go ahead, no go, I mean it had but it

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too well.

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Speaker 4: I was gonna say, I you know, normally when I

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hear these laundry lists, you know working well. By the way,

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you mentioned Clinton, one of my favorite Clinton moments was

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the famous State of the Union rre. He said, after

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the Democrats had gotten humbled in the ninety four election,

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the era big government is over, and then we had

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an hour of ninety five new ways the government bigger

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and do more things for you. But most State of

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the Unions are the laundry list speeches, and you know,

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the occasional nod to a person in the in the gallery. Instead,

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this was the work of art, a work of showmanship.

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I've found it riveting, as I say, even though I

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hate these things. And the way Trump paced out throughout

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the entire speech, signaling out someone in the audience and

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giving him award or recognition, that kept your interest because

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every time the speech was about to flag into a

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laundry list, he had another spectacle with the person. And

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you could tell at the beginning this was going to

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be different. When the hockey team they weren't sitting there,

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he announced them, and the doors opened and they came

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down the steps. I mean as spectacle. And you'd expect

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this from the guy who was got the top ratings

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with the Apprentice for so many years. So and you know,

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he called out all the Democrats' worst behavior. And for Trump,

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that was a fairly disciplined speech. Oddly enough, right he

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I mean here and there he had lived and did

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his usual things. But I thought it was Masterville I

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couldn't believe it. Oh one more footnote to that, the

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Democratic response by Abigail Spamberger. And by the way, Trump

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going on so long when she was on after eleven

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o'clock Eastern times, so nobody watched it. But I've noticed

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that some of the well two people in particular Rick Pearlstein,

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a very far left historian, and Corey robbin An even

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further further left celebrity on the intellectual left, they hated

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her speech and they both wrote pieces jumping on it,

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and they thought it was not small enough, it wasn't wimpy,

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they didn't yell at Donald Trump enough. And I thought,

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I think they're on the pulse of the party, which

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is they want, you know, red meat that's still bleeding,

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still attached to the cow. I don't know what metaphor

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you'd use, but they didn't like it, and I thought, Oh,

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that doesn't occur well for Democrats heading into twenty twenty eight,

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because they're going to want people just you know, all

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this pent up anger at Trump for more than ten

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years now, they're going to want that. And I think

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the serious moderate candidates, if there are any, are not

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going to want to do a lot of that, and

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it's going to be an interesting problem for them.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, But I still think that immigration moment was

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the best you could summon all down to that. That's

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the one thing that no matter where I look, people

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seem to have taken away, if either to defend it

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or to to point out exactly what it meant, because

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it is it's it's not. I mean, you want to

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talk about authoritarianism and fascism when discussing the tariffs. I

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mean Trump said that it was a regrettable ruling, sad

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ruling or whatever he said, but he's going to abide

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by it. It's not as if he says how many

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legions of the Supreme Court had, But it was the

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it's the job to defend the citizens of the United

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States before over and not illegal aliens. And if you

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sit on your hands for that, you've made a very

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very clear statement as to your priorities and the priorities

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of your party and movement. There's there's no there's no

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get well, I agree with what he I think one

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of somebody the interviewed afterwards, well, you know, I agree

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in principle, but it's how we do the defending. It's

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the way that. It's what's behind it. It's the racism

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of this. No, no, you can't. You can't parse your

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way out of that. You can't. Hi, I'm Ben Sass

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and I'm Chris Steierwald. And this is not dead yet.

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We're all dying, but some of us have been brought

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face to face with that reality. However long each of

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us have to do it though.

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Speaker 4: We all want to live a.

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Speaker 2: Good life, one with meaning, love and joy, and our

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guests are here to help us do exactly that. Now

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available for download and streaming at.

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Speaker 3: Rick Ricochet, join the conversation.

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Speaker 2: So we will not go to our guest, tal fort Gang.

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I hope I got that right. If not, we'll here.

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Legal policy fellow and advisor to the President at the

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Manhattan Institute. You can find his writings of the pages

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of City Journal, National Review, Yay Commentary, Law and Liberty,

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and The Wall Street Journal. Del Welcome.

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Speaker 6: Thank you so much for having me. Can I just

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say that I am a regular listener of the to

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the Ricochet podcast. It's part of my Friday afternoon pre

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Sabbath routine. My job is to do the dishes in

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our house, to make sure that everything is perfectly clean.

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For the for the beginning of the Sabbath, and the

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Ricochet podcast is an integral part of that ritual.

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Speaker 4: See I told you that. I told you tal would

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be a great guest and now suitable listening forgetting ready

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for Shabat or whatever.

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Speaker 2: That's just that's fantastic. Well, and as a fellow National

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Review guy, we're all good friends here, so let's just

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have an RGOSL congratulations and agree in agree with each

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other in an amiable fashion. No, thanks so much for listening.

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We appreciate it. And people should say, well, what's this

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guy written recently? And the piece is radicals are at

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the door, as you got the piece you have in

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the latest National Review, and we talk about the Democrat

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socialists of America. They're cuddly and cute, right, I mean,

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you got that charming guy in New York. That's a

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very human face for socialism. I want more of that

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kind of cuddly socialism. We got a nice smile, he

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cares about people. Ah, the DSA that we have here

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in the Twin Cities and Minneapolis where I live are

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not a happy, cuddly bunch of people. And they're insane.

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But I'll let you tell me about these radicals who

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are not just at the door, got one foot in

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it in some places, and in other places are sitting

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by the fire, you know, lighting up a pipe and

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looking at what trinkets they might take from your mantlebies.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I haven't tried to cuddle with any DSA members

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recently or ever, but I do think that most Americans

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are under the impression that the DSSAY is little more

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than the leftmost faction of the Democratic Party, which might

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make them extreme or radical in their ideology, but within

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the bounds, perhaps pushing the bounds of regular, acceptable, if

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radical politics. But when you look at what the DSA

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actually says and does, what its institutional messages are, what

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its leadership says regularly, and in fact the kinds of

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things that you say if you want to be promoted

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within the ranks of the DSSA, it's actually it's not

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a left wing flank of the Democratic Party itself. It

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is aiming to take over the Democratic Party in a

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hostile fashion and replace it with a truly revolutionary anti

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American group. And I don't say those words lightly, and

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I know that sounds like some kind of neo McCarthyist

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scare tactic, but they're quite open about it. They're quite

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open and saying we support America's enemies against it. We

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think that America is a terrible and bad thing, and

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we're here to take to take over the Democratic Party

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as our vehicle to execute upon that revolution. It's not

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normal politics.

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Speaker 2: I expect almost that one of them will come out

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some day and say what we have is a shining

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path for America's future. So can we draw a direct

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line between weathermen radicals of the sixties and the seventies

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and whatnot who eventually sort of cleaned up their act,

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sort of put on a nice disguise and strolled in

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the long march through the institutions. Is there a direct

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line back to the sixties radicals ideologically or do they

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do they have different ideological well springs or does it

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not matter because at the end of the day, they're all,

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we got to get rid of the America with three

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k's and replace it with the people's wisdom and power.

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Speaker 6: Well, the Weathermen, as as you know, were weird. They

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had weird ideas about about politics, about sex, about all

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kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but not those weirdos. How about the Symbionese Liberation Army.

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Speaker 6: Well, look, the DSA is weird too, perhaps in its

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own way, And I would say that the biggest difference

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between the weather underground, which never really went away. Some

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of its leadership obviously suffered legal consequences very briefly and

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then went on to the stay wished academic careers, but

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the animating ideology of the DSA kind of just retreated

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to campus for a few decades. The DSA takes on

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part of that. Obviously. They seem to be okay with

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revolutionary violence if directed against disfavored classes of people. So

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you have members of the DSA quite openly celebrating the

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murder of two Israeli embassy employees last year. Right, there's

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a pretty regular utterance in DSA circles is free Elias Rodriguez.

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That's the name of the guy who just murdered two

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young people in cold blood because they worked at the

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Israeli embassy. And within the DSA, it's a perfectly normal

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thing to say, like, well, that's a direct action against

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the illegitimate Zionist enterprise. Like who's who's to say that

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that kind of violence is unjust? That kind of thinking,

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I think can fairly be traced to an intellectual tradition

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that might be a little bit too generous generous, but

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an ideological tradition that the weathermen belong to. With that said,

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the current dssay also has quite a bit of open Marxist, Leninist,

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and often Maoist language. I'm not familiar with the weathermen

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being particularly inspired by now perhaps I'm wrong about that,

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but that is a major influence among DSA rising stars.

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The other is Islamism, is that the DSA has very

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apparently strong Islamist ties. They seem to be really concerned

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with what's going to happen with Iran, particularly if the

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United States exercises its hegemony over the Western Hemisphere and

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cuts off the flow of oil between Iran, Venezuela and Cuba.

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That really raises hackles in DSA circles. And occasionally they'll

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just send people over to Iran to hobnob with the

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with the Mullahs there and explore the ways in which

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their interests are aligned in fighting the Great Satan.

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Speaker 2: That's I I will throw this to Steve in a second,

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I promise, and then I'll shut up. But I just

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have to say, do they not understand that the Islamists

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stray and that they are that they are aligning themselves

472
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:30,559
with is profoundly illiberal in all of the ways that

473
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,400
they hate. If they don't like America because it's patriarchal,

474
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,200
it's racist, it's homophobic, it's transphobic, it's it's it's it

475
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,920
wants to impose a religious theocracy. And yet they turn

476
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,440
around and make common cause simply because they have the

477
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,319
oppressor oppressed matrix going on in their head. Can they

478
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,640
not think one step beyond that and say, we are

479
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,240
getting in bed with the people who will kill as

480
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,119
at the earliest popular possible opportunity.

481
00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:56,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, it seems absurd, And I think the key in

482
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,240
trying to to mention the challenge, the problem, the threat

483
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:04,559
that DSA represents is to try to take their way

484
00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:07,359
of viewing the world seriously, which is not just to

485
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,839
say that they're like absurd or idiots, But what is

486
00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:14,480
it that they could possibly be thinking. Is it that

487
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,680
their hatred of America is just their number one animating

488
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:26,759
principle and whatever follows from that, whatever Molotov Ribbentrop pacts

489
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,359
have to be signed to affect that outcome, they'll take it.

490
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,640
Maybe it's that maybe they have these beliefs that you

491
00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:39,640
and I and reasonable people will recognize as as Kakammy,

492
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,720
that if Iran is simply liberated from the shackles of

493
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:52,400
Western colonial influence, that they'll become progressive para coons. I mean,

494
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160
it's like, it's laughable. I'm literally laughing talking about it.

495
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:59,160
But I think we have to try to get inside

496
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,680
their heads and seriously about what's going on.

497
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 4: Boy, I really don't want to be inside their heads.

498
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,200
I don't know what you mean, but look, I mean,

499
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,599
I think there's two parts to it. One is, I

500
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,960
think that the left doesn't take religion seriously when they're

501
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,640
not hostile to it, right, So I think they don't

502
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,079
believe that the Islamists really do believe the Quran and

503
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,400
all the rest of that. That's one possibility. The other

504
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,440
one is to take off something James said is I

505
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,640
sometimes half joke but only half that every one of

506
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,000
these revolutionary cycles that we see are just replays of

507
00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:34,039
the Spanish Civil War from the thirties, in which the

508
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,720
perceptive people like Orwell and Arthur Kessler and a whole

509
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,119
bunch of people you can think of who went to

510
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,440
Spain wanting to fight on the side of revolution and discovered, oh,

511
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,559
we're going to be the first people to communists kill

512
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:46,880
if they actually get power. Right, this has been seen

513
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,200
over and over again, and they never seem to learn

514
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,119
that lesson, and they don't realize that they will be

515
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,599
the first people the Islamists, the Islamists will kill if

516
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:57,960
they actually got power here or anywhere else. So there's

517
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,519
an iavitae there, but I think you could your finger

518
00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:03,359
on it. The enemy, my enemy is my friend. Their

519
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,799
hatred for America is qualifications number one through ten, and

520
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:09,960
that's why the ally with them. And it's pretty perverse,

521
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,079
but I did well. Back to your article, though, my

522
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,440
one sentence summary is that essentially the case you make

523
00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:17,119
is that what we used to think of was a

524
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,920
wing of the Democratic Party is rapidly becoming It's or

525
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,480
so right, it's it's no longer going to be a wing.

526
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:25,400
It's going to be the mainstream of the party. And

527
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,720
that's on purpose. I think back to the Students for

528
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:33,119
Democratic Society, the poort hereon statement. You know, their first

529
00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:35,799
idea was let's take over the universities and make that

530
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,559
our power base. And you know that pretty much succeeded

531
00:28:38,599 --> 00:28:40,559
in that, and so the next step would be the

532
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:42,160
Democratic Party.

533
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: What you know what, because that's where the chicks were anyway.

534
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,119
Speaker 4: Okay, oh, I have so many friends you know a

535
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,759
little older than me from the sixties and said the

536
00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:52,000
only reason they went to Andy warr rallies was to

537
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,400
meet girls. Yeah, okay, those people are all conservatives now.

538
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,240
But here's the point tal is in a question, Sorry

539
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,920
I'm rambling too long. Is the party is seems to

540
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,440
be rolling over pretty fast without putting up much resistance.

541
00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:07,359
Say more about that.

542
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:13,039
Speaker 6: I mean, the Democratic Party appears to be ideologically defenseless

543
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,720
against the DSA. Right, there are really two possibilities here

544
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,759
that we're seeing play out as mainstream figures like President Obama,

545
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,559
Governor Kathy Hochel in New York, various others have just

546
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,319
rolled over and conceded all the dsay's premises and welcomed

547
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:34,920
them almost as liberators, which is kind of a funny,

548
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,000
a funny phrase to appropriate for this instance. But they'll

549
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,079
say things that really just ease the blow of the

550
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,039
DSA taking over, like, well, you know, they're just they're

551
00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:53,680
just four more community control of our means of production. Right,

552
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,000
we will frame them as more moderate than they really are,

553
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:05,599
because frankly, we can't fight. They're going to steamroll us.

554
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,079
And the reason for that is either that they see

555
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,640
that that's where the political wins are blowing. The Democrats

556
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,559
have simply lost younger voters and ideologues, and anyone who's

557
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:19,039
going to be left of center is going to go

558
00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,160
full DSA, and there just aren't any more kaffe Hocals

559
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,480
out there. That's one possibility. The other is that ideologically

560
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,759
they really see very little difference between their own position

561
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:34,480
and the position of the DSA. Perhaps rhetorically and strategically

562
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:41,119
they make different choices, but ultimately they're really two wings

563
00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:43,920
of the same Torso. I don't know if that physiological

564
00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:47,799
metaphor holds, but we'll strain it right now.

565
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 4: I'm so old that I can remember sort of the

566
00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:53,720
leading figures I think within the DSA back in the sixties,

567
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:56,319
or at least they were adjacent, and that was Michael Harrington,

568
00:30:56,759 --> 00:30:58,960
the famous author of The Other America that was so

569
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,759
influential with the beginning of the War on Poverty, and

570
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,799
then a little later ALERD. Lowenstein in New York, who

571
00:31:05,039 --> 00:31:07,400
was very far left but friends with William F. Buckley.

572
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,720
You know those were different times, right, Both of them

573
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:13,000
managed to get themselves elected to Congress, but they were

574
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,400
both I think you'd say serious people with a you know,

575
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,759
an intellectual quotion. And I look now at the DSA

576
00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:22,319
and I don't see people of their stature. I see

577
00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:24,960
what I see here. You know, crazy people like Naomi Kleine,

578
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,039
and they all seem to be named Naomi. You're half

579
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:29,279
of them to right, So I don't know who are

580
00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:32,960
the Do you see any sort of significant intellectual leadership

581
00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:35,759
on the DSA or is it all just crazy people.

582
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 6: Within the DSA. I don't see serious intellectual anything, leadership,

583
00:31:43,039 --> 00:31:46,599
promulgation of ideas. Nothing is serious. They have tons of publications.

584
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,480
I mean, it is a treasure trove to just sift

585
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,640
through the National DSSAYS archives, the many many chapters, many

586
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,759
of which have their own zines. You gotta love a

587
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:01,519
good revolutionary zone, and there's so it's a it's an

588
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:06,119
absolute gold mine in there. All of it is total

589
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:11,920
pseudo academic babble. And no, there are no individuals within

590
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,200
the organization who are are setting the pace ideologically. There

591
00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:22,200
are external publications that will try to run cover for

592
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:28,680
DSA in its its kind of ideological program. Some of those,

593
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,839
I'd say the most prominent of those are actually sham

594
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,519
news sites like like drop site news Right, which is

595
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,799
a partially George Soros funded operation that seems to have

596
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,720
suspiciously close ties to Hamas and Hesbalat manages to get

597
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,559
exclusive interviews with their leadership all the time, which is

598
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,599
kind of interesting. But they will they will put out

599
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:55,839
what appear to be news articles that really push the

600
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:03,000
boundaries of analysis towards a framing that is very friendly

601
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,480
to basically everything that that DSA stands for, extremely hostile

602
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:14,799
towards the United States oddly obsessed with revolutionary violence. The

603
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:23,200
redemptive Phenanian uh Colonized defeats Colonizer with a healthy dose

604
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:26,319
of Cuban and Venezuelan sympathy is thrown in there for

605
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:26,960
quick measure.

606
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: Hi, this is a young Culter. Welcome to my Ricochet oncast.

607
00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:40,519
Speaker 3: And Coulter every week on Ricochet, your home to center

608
00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:41,480
Right conversation.

609
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:50,279
Speaker 2: Hey, that was pretty good. It's so unattractive though, The

610
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:56,559
whole Cuban Venezuelan mojo is so unattractive to people in

611
00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:58,799
this country. I mean, when you when you dress it

612
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,160
up in a nice suit and a big grin, you

613
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,960
say we're gonna have free busses for everybody, a lot

614
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,759
of people. Yeah, okay, whatever. But when you start that

615
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,599
hardcore revolutionary talk, there is something in the American spirit

616
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:10,719
that just instinctively turns away from it, except for the

617
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,880
one or two or three percent who just absolutely love

618
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,360
it because they get to see the right people killed,

619
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,159
and they get to be in charge of all the things,

620
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,719
and they are going to be so well set up

621
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,079
after the revolution, when actually they're probably either going to

622
00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:25,400
be in a pit or digging the pit. But that's

623
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,519
why I don't really worry that it gets a lot

624
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:29,800
of traction because of the core. The more they get

625
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,480
back to that sixties style Harry chay Bovara stuff, the

626
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:37,840
more people are repulsed by it at an atomic automatic level.

627
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,199
But I have to ask, then, is there right now

628
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,960
they're having the moment and everybody's you have all the zines,

629
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000
you have all the websites, and everybody's getting together and

630
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:47,079
figuring out what it means to be a DSA. But

631
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:52,639
as we all know, there are inevitably splitters. What do

632
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,920
you see could be one of those dividing lines that

633
00:34:56,039 --> 00:34:59,679
actually tends to take the movement. That fractures the movement,

634
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:01,800
it loses some of its momentum power.

635
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 6: Well, there's still a little bit of an old guard left.

636
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,400
They've basically lost their positions of power on the the NPC,

637
00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:15,199
the national I think National Political Committee is the name

638
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,960
of the uh, the central.

639
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: Body and the NPC. They're the non playable characters.

640
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,599
Speaker 6: That's great is that it also just has like such

641
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:26,559
a great Soviet ring to it, right, like it just

642
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:31,360
now obviously like we're talking about a party, so so

643
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:36,360
to some extent that uh, that is inevitable. Most of

644
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:42,360
them have been have been replaced by open Marxist Leninists

645
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:46,679
or Maoists or you know, people who like to leave

646
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,320
lots of blood emojis in there in their posts on

647
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,000
social media, just to to tell you what they're all about.

648
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 4: Uh, And that.

649
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,559
Speaker 6: Spooks some of the old guard. But ultimately I don't

650
00:35:56,599 --> 00:36:01,679
think that that's where DSA shows serias fault lines. The

651
00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:05,079
serious fault lines are going to be. I mean, this

652
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:08,639
is like Alcove one, Alcove two, Alcove three, right, or

653
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,280
you know the Popular People's Front of Judea versus the

654
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:17,079
Judaean People's Popular Front, right, It's it's like, oh, do

655
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,559
we do we take now as our guiding light? Do

656
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:24,440
we take Lenin as are guiding And obviously the more

657
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,239
granular you get and the more high you get on

658
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,440
your own recent political success, the more you think that

659
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:36,800
it's urgent to hash out these infinitesimally small ideological differences.

660
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,480
That's kind of the great hope of conservatives and free

661
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,199
market capitalists is that the communists will just tear themselves

662
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,239
to death because it's it's almost in their nature as

663
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:53,480
constant purity seekers, constant like true ideologues, people who are

664
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:59,719
are really rigidly tethered to their their ideological foundations that

665
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,679
eventually the differences between them will come to a four

666
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:05,960
And obviously putting differences aside is the key to coalitional

667
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,880
and party politics.

668
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 4: So that's the hope.

669
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:12,639
Speaker 6: It's not obvious where that rift is going to emerge, though,

670
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:13,840
you know, I'm.

671
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 4: Having flashbacks tell to I mean, I read about these things.

672
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,559
I'm not old enough for this, but not just Mao

673
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:23,159
versus Lenin versus Trotsky, but here in this country is

674
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,119
you may know, back in the thirties it was the

675
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,480
fights between the Shackedman Knights and the Lovestone Nights, right

676
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,000
then Mother Joe all these crazy things, and Emma Goldman

677
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,159
crazy stuff. But I do think, you know, James mentioned

678
00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:40,639
the affinity people on the left had for so long

679
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:43,079
for these four and utopias, and that brings me back

680
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:45,599
to the famous book now, gosh, more than forty years old,

681
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:50,199
but so am I by Paul Hollander and political Pilgrims. Right.

682
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,199
And the point is, if you go back decades ago,

683
00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:54,519
a century ago, there were all the fellow Travelers we

684
00:37:54,559 --> 00:37:57,400
call them. They loved the Soviet Union until it became indefensible.

685
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,079
They love Cuba until you know, that came hard to defend. Two,

686
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,679
they were Maoists for a while, until that became indefensible.

687
00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:08,960
And then he pointed out, you know, serious people saying Albania,

688
00:38:09,159 --> 00:38:10,880
that's our country that we're going to hold up as

689
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,119
the socialist utopia. And North Korea for a while. You know,

690
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,440
at Peter your Collier and David Horowitz, who I knew

691
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:18,480
very well back in their days in the left in

692
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,159
the late sixties early seventies, they would sing these songs

693
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:23,239
in praise of as it was a kim Il song

694
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,480
whoever the guy was ran the North Korea for all

695
00:38:25,519 --> 00:38:28,719
those decades and so there. And the point is is

696
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,559
today it's hard to point to a foreign left wing

697
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:34,440
utopia they can point to, and I think in a

698
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,119
way that most people haven't take account of that partly

699
00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:40,559
fuels their anger and rage. I mean, they always had

700
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:42,639
the anger and rage and were violent and all the

701
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:44,480
rest of that, but they at least said they had

702
00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:46,800
someplace to point to is their model, And now there

703
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,239
isn't one, is there? I can't It was in Venezuela.

704
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,880
I mean they tried for like a couple months what's

705
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,039
his name, Sean Pan and even Bernie Sanders, but that

706
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:58,320
evaporated pretty fast. So they don't have a utopia anymore.

707
00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:59,599
So what are you going to do when you lose

708
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:00,159
your God?

709
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 6: There is a strong well. I should say first of

710
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,199
all that the North Korean dream has not completely died.

711
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:14,519
The d Essays International Committee has sponsored multiple events aiming

712
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:21,599
to rehabilitate North Korea's image in the West and trying

713
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:26,000
to blame obviously blame every any suffering there of which

714
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,039
there is shockingly little. But whatever suffering there is is

715
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:33,440
the United States fault. And really, if the United States

716
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,760
were just less imperialist, less supportive of South Korean capitalism

717
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:41,559
than the North Koreans would be living in paradise. With

718
00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:46,440
that said, China is the closest thing they have to

719
00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:50,280
a model. Now it's a totally invented version of of

720
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,840
what China and the Chinese Communist Party have wrought. They'll

721
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,960
say things like, oh, it's a true ecological society. It's

722
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:04,679
the future of the world's worst polluter, right is. But

723
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,760
if you just if you swallow CCP propaganda whole, which

724
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,400
is essentially the policy of the DSA, we do not

725
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,119
believe anything that comes out of the United States. We

726
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,960
believe everything that comes out of China, and they are

727
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,519
living glorious future. I mean, this is like it's it's

728
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:27,039
it's so dumb. It's really hard to believe.

729
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 2: That's the worst. It's it's really stupid. So we can

730
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,719
hope then that actually this whole movement sunders and sputters

731
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,119
because they're dumb enough to say, you know, North Korea

732
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:40,480
is really getting a bad shake. I mean, North Korea

733
00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:42,800
is sort of a humorous meme, you know, an ex

734
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:46,000
people that have fun with it. The actual horrors of

735
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,760
the regime, I think everybody realizes. And when you see

736
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,599
the sneaked out video of these clockwork societies, it look

737
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,239
like some nightmare out a wrinkle in time of the regimentation,

738
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,159
and it's it's it's abhorred. Everything they point to is

739
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:01,599
ap porrant. Everything that they point to and want manifests

740
00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:05,239
the sins they find in America times ten. So they're

741
00:41:05,639 --> 00:41:08,280
dumb at the bottom angle of it. And if they

742
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,320
were smarter, they would realize that they could just get

743
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,199
away with an awful lot of things by wrapping it

744
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,519
up in more of an American tradition and being the

745
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,119
guys who come wrapped in the flag to tell us

746
00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:20,039
how we can be even better if we take these

747
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:22,360
ideas on. But what you're describing as a group of

748
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,360
kids who just never got out of college and want

749
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,559
to stay there in the dorm movement with the chap

750
00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:29,760
poster behind them and do bowing hits and talk about

751
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,320
it what it'll be great when the man is dead,

752
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,119
When dad is dead, I'm sorry, not dad. I'll just

753
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:35,519
say yeah, yeah.

754
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 6: There's a lot of that too, for sure. I would

755
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,000
say they're dumb in a smart way, which is everything

756
00:41:41,079 --> 00:41:46,280
is framed in an unfalsifiable fashion. Were it not for

757
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,599
America's dominance, were it not for capitalism, all these things

758
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:56,280
would occur. Now nobody knows that world, right, it's a

759
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,000
totally counter factual universe in which the North Koreans are

760
00:42:01,039 --> 00:42:04,920
free from American influence. But as long as you can

761
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:11,480
frame your support for those hostile foreign nations as were

762
00:42:11,519 --> 00:42:14,719
it not for the United States as it is, they

763
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,960
would be everything that we hoped we would have utopia

764
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,920
here on earth. Then you can say the craziest things

765
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,360
and just say, oh, well, all the bad things that

766
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,199
you've heard about the CCP, all the times you've been

767
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:33,440
told to distrust them, that's just American propaganda. It's all

768
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,679
a conspiracy theory about American dominance.

769
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 4: So tell let me shift gears back to when inside

770
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,960
our on borders and give you what I think we'll

771
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,599
end up being an exit question, and it is is

772
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,760
mom dommy the key to the near and intermediate term

773
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,679
for this whole story. I mean, your article points out

774
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,280
how the democratic establishment rolled over so quickly for him,

775
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,800
he appears to be serious. He's not just a dorm

776
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,199
room bs er. I mean, he's really trying to do

777
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,039
this in New York City. And look, I mean, I'm

778
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:02,679
sure he's going to fail, but it looks to me

779
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,880
like he's the in person. He's clearly the new Bernie Sanders,

780
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,519
and he's going to be a national, international celebrity. And

781
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,320
so is Bondamie the key to this whole story right now?

782
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,559
Speaker 6: Well, he's certainly the model to the DSA takeover, right

783
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,800
he presents a particular archetype of the DSA candidate, who's

784
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,320
who's a true believer. He's got a history of that

785
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,639
kind of street activism that's the highest vocation for aspiring

786
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,760
DSA members. And then he ran a snappy campaign in

787
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:41,039
a in a winnable place and gained a lot of power. Now,

788
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:44,559
how he governs in the long run is to be seen,

789
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,679
and whether that form of governing serves as a model

790
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:55,039
for other jurisdictions is to be seen twice over. But

791
00:43:55,119 --> 00:43:59,280
I do think that that is the key to understanding

792
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,039
the political st ategy. How does the DSA run candidates,

793
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:07,280
What are they encouraged to do when they govern at

794
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:11,480
a particular level, what perhaps they are encouraged to keep

795
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:15,119
in the in the quiver for when the DSA has

796
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:19,440
a little bit more sway power a little bit more

797
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,280
of a of a coalition of its own. That is

798
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,880
a really interesting and open question that clouds any semblance

799
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,960
of moderation that we might see from from Montani, Like

800
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,559
if he is truly a true believer, then then perhaps

801
00:44:34,679 --> 00:44:39,280
anything he's done that appears to be moderate is really strategic.

802
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,280
That's not a crazy thing to think.

803
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 4: It's a new economic plan, right yeah, mber Leno's new

804
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,559
economic plan in nineteen twenty one.

805
00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 6: Right yeah, Well, I don't remember that. I'm a little.

806
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:53,159
Speaker 4: Okay.

807
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: Nothing we've done is working, so let's try this and

808
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,800
not call it capitalism. Dall has been a pleasure, and

809
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,639
everyone should go to National Review and read this peaceable

810
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:02,440
and get the comments here at bricochet dot com. And

811
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,079
if you hit a paywall, well you know that's pony up.

812
00:45:05,519 --> 00:45:07,639
National Reviews got to keep the lights on. Two. I've

813
00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:10,280
been to their office. They're not palatial. They're nice, but

814
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,480
there's no golden fountain. So Tell needs to get paid,

815
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:17,360
as do we all. And I'm sorry, I'm so sorry

816
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,320
Tell that you know when you do your cleaning up

817
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,480
this week, you're gonna have to listen to yourself. I'm afraid.

818
00:45:23,559 --> 00:45:26,760
And I know that I fast forward through that whenever

819
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,719
I do so, grit it, Barrett and listen to yourself

820
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,199
and be proud because it's been fun. We've enjoyed having you.

821
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,760
We went forward to the mix that of man you want.

822
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, guys, I'll look through the archives

823
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:38,639
for this afternoon.

824
00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 2: There you go. Okay, bye bye.

825
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: I'm Greg Corumbas. Join Jim Garrity of National Review and

826
00:45:47,519 --> 00:45:50,559
me each weekday for the Three Martini Lunch Podcast. We'll

827
00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:52,440
give you the good, bat and crazy news of the

828
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,400
day and lots of laughs too. Find us right here

829
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,880
on the Ricochet Audio Network at ricochet dot com or

830
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,559
wherever you get your podcasts.

831
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 2: Well, before we go, a couple of things. Somebody mentioned Albania.

832
00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:12,039
I hadn't thought about Albania in a long time, and

833
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:17,880
I thought, who is the guy who? And Verhosa right,

834
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,480
and I thought, I remember that guy's name. You know

835
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:23,880
that he was the Albanian because Albania was always one

836
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,400
of those weird things out there. You never it wasn't

837
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,920
one of your marquee comed states in the Eastern Bloc,

838
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,760
you know. And the fact that they fastened on it

839
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:37,360
is there is the future. Ah yeah, next, next, up Liberia.

840
00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:40,880
So yeah, I don't wish that. I do wish sort

841
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,599
of having you know, the cultural amusement we got out

842
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:46,360
of having just a parade of gray suited door idiot

843
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,679
functionaries in charge of countries that we could always sort

844
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:50,559
of make fun of. But it reminds me that whenever

845
00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:54,079
Mission Impossible or shows of that ILK of that time

846
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:56,719
would go to a comic country, or for that matter,

847
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,639
one in Central America, they would always they'd never they'd

848
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:03,079
never name any of them, like they were scared of

849
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:06,760
somehow losing the future Albanian distribution rights if they said,

850
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,920
you're going to Albania, Peter with your staff and we

851
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:15,480
you know, yeah, so yeah, we are not done because

852
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:16,880
we have to talk about a couple of things. One

853
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,880
Gavin Newsom, I think everybody's sort of expecting is going

854
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,239
to be, you know, a real contender for the Damson

855
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,519
twenty the next presidential election, made a remarkable speech the

856
00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,559
other day where he was talking to an audience largely composed,

857
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:32,559
if not entirely, of African Americans with an African American

858
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:36,559
injured low future and said, look, I'm like you guys

859
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:40,480
crap as at scores and I can't read.

860
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,519
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, I'm not trying to impress you.

861
00:47:46,039 --> 00:47:49,320
I'm just trying to impress upon you. I'm like you,

862
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,800
I'm no better than you. You know, I'm a nine

863
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:59,119
to sixty SAT guy, and you know, and I'm not

864
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:01,199
trying to offend anyone, well, you know, trying to act

865
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,519
all there if you got nine forty, but literally a

866
00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:10,400
nine to sixty SAT guy, I cannot You've never seen

867
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,800
me read a speech because I cannot read a speech.

868
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:22,079
Speaker 2: I'm I'm still goggling over that particular speech and why

869
00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:24,199
anybody would think that was a wise thing to do,

870
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,719
and why there hasn't been the blowback that you would think.

871
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,280
There's been amusement and shrugging. Oh, I mean, I mean nobody.

872
00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:32,800
Maybe you're seeing something out there that I'm not. But

873
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,679
I mean Newsom doesn't have that. Oh that's just Gavin

874
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,039
talking off the talking off the cuff. He's kind of

875
00:48:39,079 --> 00:48:41,440
a babbler, he's weird in that way. That's not his

876
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:45,280
persona yet, So was this a calculated move and if so,

877
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:47,440
what the hell were they thinking?

878
00:48:48,159 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 4: Well, okay, I can explain it all to you, but

879
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,480
first I do have to say I don't think he's

880
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,440
gonna end up being a top contender for the nomination.

881
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:55,119
I think he's going to have a glass jaw the

882
00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:57,599
way Kambella did in twenty twenty. And you might not

883
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:00,079
even make it to the first primary. But first of all,

884
00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:01,639
can I just set the scene for listeners? And I

885
00:49:01,679 --> 00:49:03,599
hate to do this to you, James, but I'm sitting

886
00:49:03,599 --> 00:49:06,480
here in my shorts in the morning, out here where

887
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,079
it's going to top out at eighty degrees today. Yesterday

888
00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:11,119
I was watching a pot of whales swim by my

889
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:13,639
window in the middle of the day and the ocean

890
00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:16,440
out in front of my house. And yet people are

891
00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:19,000
leaving California. How is this possible?

892
00:49:19,079 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: Right?

893
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,559
Speaker 4: Only you know all the other Sun Belt states are

894
00:49:21,559 --> 00:49:24,800
gaining population. We're losing it by a lot. Well, that's

895
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,119
the legacy of Newsom. But when I heard that comment,

896
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,119
my mind ran back to something you might remember too,

897
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,719
or at least it was close enough to your sentient youth.

898
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,519
It's when George Romney, the governor of Michigan in late

899
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:42,239
nineteen sixty seven, even with Richard Nixon in the polls

900
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,480
for the Republican nomination the following year, made the offhand

901
00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:47,920
comment to Detroit TV station. Oh yeah, I went over

902
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,400
to Vietnam and I just got the most thorough brainwashing.

903
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:56,119
You can imagine his campaign collapsed instantly because I mean,

904
00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:58,519
of course, there were some great jokes. You know, Jean McCarthy,

905
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:00,920
the air from your state, who really did have a

906
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,800
great wit, said Romney didn't need a brainwashing, a light

907
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,400
rents would have been just fought. Yes, great stuff. And

908
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,239
you know he never recovered from that because you know,

909
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,440
it just made you look like a moron. So why

910
00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:16,159
is Newsome so far not gotten that kind of blowback? Well,

911
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,000
so here's an interesting thing. You know, I've never been

912
00:50:19,039 --> 00:50:22,639
for the psychological theory we call projection, except maybe I

913
00:50:22,639 --> 00:50:25,320
think it's true. And so one reason liberals are always

914
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,760
accusing the rest of us of being racist is because,

915
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,159
guess what, that's what they actually are. So a few

916
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,079
years ago, actually twenty eighteen, so what eight years ago now,

917
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,559
an African American professor at Yale and a woman social

918
00:50:38,559 --> 00:50:42,039
scientist at Princeton did a study that was a very

919
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:46,920
thorough content analysis of speeches by Republican and Democratic politicians.

920
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,800
And you know, they code all this stuff and you

921
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,440
can contest the methodology, but come back to that in

922
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,039
a minute. What it found was democratic politicians routinely talk

923
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,800
down to minorities. The way they characterized it was they

924
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,960
profess a certain incompetence. In other words, they described in

925
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,840
the study exactly what Newsome did the other day. And

926
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,159
you know, they want to say, and I'm guessing these

927
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:12,559
professors have liberal sympathies, probably if they're social scientists at

928
00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:15,239
Yale and Princeton, they're saying, oh, you know, these people

929
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,880
are trying to be ealitarian and non racist, but they're

930
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,880
betraying subtle racism in thinking the capabilities of minorities are

931
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,280
lower than everyone else. You remember the famous statement Biden

932
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,280
made about poor kids are just as smart as white kids.

933
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 2: Right, yes, right, So I.

934
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 4: Mean I actually think that's what's going on here, and

935
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,840
I think that's now deeply embedded on the left. They

936
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,320
are paternalistic. They really do privately believe that minorities are

937
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:44,559
not as capable without their help as everyone else. They

938
00:51:44,599 --> 00:51:46,639
don't believe. That's one reason they don't believe in treating

939
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:49,760
people as individuals and equally in the sense of it.

940
00:51:50,119 --> 00:51:52,000
So I think that's what's going on. But I do

941
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:56,800
think that between that problem, which I think all of

942
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,119
them share really, but I think between that gaff and

943
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:02,880
just generally a nuisance record, I think he's going to

944
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,440
get clobbered, maybe by another liberal. I mean, if JB.

945
00:52:05,519 --> 00:52:07,960
Pritzker runs, he's gonna say, Illinois may stink, but we

946
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,679
don't stick as bad as California.

947
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,199
Speaker 2: So yeah, run on Illinois. That's that's an interesting, interesting thing.

948
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I need to just add, by the way,

949
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,760
about that study. You know, I see all these look

950
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,400
I read a lot of these things, and I always say,

951
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,360
I wonder how it turn out with a different methodology.

952
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,159
No one, to my mind, has either replicated a study

953
00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:26,920
or done a study refuting it. I can point to

954
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,039
a whole lot of social science studies that give a

955
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:34,079
very anti liberal conclusion, and other social scientists avoid taking

956
00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:36,360
it up because I think they fear that they would

957
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:37,719
ratify it if they did it.

958
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 2: I think you're right. Well, let's sort of predicate predicates

959
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,119
underline the opposition to voter id that these groups are

960
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:46,599
too stupid and too incapable to actually go and get

961
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:49,159
vote voter idea. And there's a there's a second part

962
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:51,480
of that too, which is, well, how exactly do they

963
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,480
get the documents to get these voterer Id's, well, they

964
00:52:53,519 --> 00:52:55,320
get them from the government. As you're saying that the

965
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,400
government makes it very hard to get them. Because the

966
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,599
government isn't very good at this, why don't you get

967
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:02,760
better at at them? I know, well, you know, I

968
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,480
think the main thing going for Newshim is his presidential hair.

969
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:08,239
I think people look at that and say, we haven't

970
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,679
seen presidential hair like that since Martin Sheen, and that's

971
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,119
gonna get them a certain distance. But yeah, I would

972
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:17,360
love to know that. You're right, Britzer doesn't have a

973
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,840
particular amount of charisma for me. I can't see them

974
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,519
putting up another white guy to go up against Vance,

975
00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:28,559
who would have a lot more bryo energy and sideways

976
00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:31,320
knowing looks at the camera during debates. We'll see, we'll

977
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,639
see long ways away. And I have no intention of

978
00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:36,079
thinking about it. In a beautiful day like today, it's sunny,

979
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,239
and it's always sunny at Ricochet, he said, with a

980
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,719
grotesque bad transition. But that's the place where you can

981
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,079
get not only this podcast, but many many others in

982
00:53:47,079 --> 00:53:50,000
the Ricochet Audio network, And of course you can read

983
00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:52,679
a wide variety of pieces about all sorts of things,

984
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,199
because Ricochet is not about people who agreed sitting around

985
00:53:56,559 --> 00:53:59,239
saying the same old thing everybody else is saying. We're

986
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,320
not doing the same dish that everybody else has already

987
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,840
masticated into into bits and pieces. No, it's a whole

988
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,360
community of different people who find pleasures in life, the

989
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,639
likes of which, well, you'll have to go and sign

990
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,199
up to see the member feed. Yes, costs a little

991
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,719
bit to get there, but that's what makes Ricochet special.

992
00:54:18,199 --> 00:54:22,719
Can't post and comment if you're you don't have skin

993
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,480
in the game, as Rob Long used to say, And

994
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:26,519
that's what that in the code of conduct makes it

995
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:28,280
a place to be that doesn't like any other on

996
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,079
the internet. So never mind Facebook, and you know, I

997
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:33,000
love X two, but when it comes to going back

998
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:34,920
and chatting with my friends and seeing what's up and

999
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,679
talking literature, art and politics and music other countries, Ricochet

1000
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,000
is the place to go. And of course you give

1001
00:54:41,079 --> 00:54:44,840
us that five star review. Everybody asks you for a

1002
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,079
review these days, I know, but we've been doing it

1003
00:54:47,159 --> 00:54:50,039
longer than anybody else to no avail. So give us

1004
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:52,840
that five star review and we'll be really happy. Charles

1005
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,719
w probably be back with us next week if non

1006
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,639
Steve and I look forward to the two of us

1007
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,400
chatting to whomever comes up in the hopper, and it's

1008
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,599
been fun. We'll see everybody in the comments at Ricochet

1009
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:06,000
four point whatever it is this week. Good bye man.

1010
00:55:08,199 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 4: Ricochet. Join the conversation.