WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:02.879 Hey Richard, Hey Carl, what do you know? 2 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.679 Well, I know that our friend Michelle Rubusta Monte is 3 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:08.880 with us to tell us about something that's going on 4 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.199 adjacent to DEV Intersection. 5 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:15.560 What is it? It's cybersecurity Intersection. Let's let Michelle tell 6 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:16.199 that story. 7 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:21.320 Hey Michelle, Hey Carl, Hey Richard, how are you. 8 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.839 Tell us about cybersecurity Intersection? 9 00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:26.920 Well, so, Richard and I are partnering with the group 10 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:30.359 that does DEV Intersection and next Gen AI, and we 11 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.200 are putting on a new conference dedicated to one hundred 12 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:40.000 percent security focused topics. And I mean, honestly, the lineup 13 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.679 of speakers is incredible. We have Paula A. Jenis, who's 14 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:47.600 here from Poland and does keynotes all over the world 15 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.600 and is one of the top rated RSA speakers and 16 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.159 black hat speaker. We're so lucky to have her. But 17 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.000 she's not only keynoting, she's got a workshop teaches you 18 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:01.039 about protecting your environments against hackers and shows you about 19 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.719 how to you know, do attacks so that you can 20 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.840 prevent them. It's pretty cool and sessions like that as well. 21 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.799 But we also have speakers from Microsoft. We have we 22 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:15.120 have speakers that specialize in you know secure coding practices, 23 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:20.439 Azure security, Zuero, trust architectures on Azure UH and people 24 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.519 who do decision maker tracks, so things around governance policy 25 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:26.200 and you know how to how to manage and your 26 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.480 production operations keep them secure. So it's an amazing group 27 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.040 of speakers, really excited about it. 28 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:33.560 And I think I can count myself among the group 29 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:34.599 of speakers there. 30 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.079 Well, yes you can, that is right. 31 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:42.159 Yeah, I'm doing a securing Blazer Server applications talk and 32 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:45.959 also I think we're doing a Security this Week live 33 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.480 show there somewhere that is correct. 34 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:51.200 Yeah, we'll be recording Security this Week live. We're going 35 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.719 to have a great panel with some folks. The interesting 36 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.920 thing here is we don't really have a Microsoft and 37 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.120 dot net and Azure focused toecurity conference yet, so that's 38 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.159 the reason we're putting this on as well. You know 39 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.280 there are other security conferences, but they have a spread 40 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:10.439 of topics that maybe don't focus on the things you 41 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:13.080 do day to day. And you know this overlaps with 42 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:17.560 again our community of folks that specialize in again dot net, 43 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:21.039 Azure and yeah, they need to keep it secure too, 44 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:22.840 So with tons of talks. 45 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.240 Cyber Intersection is part of a trio of conferences we're doing. 46 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.360 They have Intersection alongside the next Gen AI Conference all 47 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.680 in Orlando the week of October fifth through tenth. That's 48 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.080 workshops and the main conference. And you can get a 49 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:41.400 special registration code if you sign up through Cybersecurity Intersection 50 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:42.360 dot com. 51 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:47.400 Yeah, so if you sign up at Cybersecurity Intersection dot com, 52 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:52.520 then you put in this code, so Alliance cyber three 53 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:56.319 hundred and you'll get three hundred off the entry price. 54 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.680 So that's a special code that only works at cybersecurity 55 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.439 dot com. And then you have access to all the conferences. 56 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:09.400 Like Richard said, Wow, that's cool. Thanks Michelle. I'm looking 57 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:24.199 forward to it and I'll see you there. Hey, watch 58 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.479 out for falling rocks. Nice, it's dot NetRocks. Watch out 59 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.960 for falling dot NetRocks. I'm Carl Franklin. 60 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:32.520 And I'm Richard Campbell. 61 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.240 We're here for your listening pleasure again. On episode nineteen 62 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:41.280 sixty seven, this is the year we were born. Yeah, 63 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:47.080 and my wife then ye yeah, and a lot of 64 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:49.479 cool things happen. Should we do better know framework first 65 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:52.159 and then do what happened in nineteen sixty seven? Or 66 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.400 should we Yeah, let's do that all right, don't mess 67 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:56.879 with the pattern, roll the music. 68 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:05.560 What do you got? 69 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:08.439 I have something intriguing that I have not used, but 70 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:10.479 you know, I like to look and see what's trending 71 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.280 on GitHub and this one is a tool that lets 72 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.279 you run Windows in a Docker container. 73 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:18.879 Oh far Oh. 74 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:23.800 It's docer doc k u r slash Windows on GitHub. 75 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.199 And let me pull the classic And why would you 76 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:26.560 do that? 77 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.759 Why would you ever want to do that? Yeah? Why 78 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:30.199 would you want to do that? I'll tell you what. 79 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:32.240 The only reason I could see doing that is the 80 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.839 same reason i'd want to VM, which is complete and encapsulation. 81 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:40.120 But I would probably want to do it for security reasons, 82 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.079 you know, like I want to move all my email 83 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.240 reading stuff over there. But in order to do that, 84 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:51.079 you really have to turn off network access, well local 85 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.160 network access, you have to limit it. 86 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:55.399 You can do that sort of stuff with virtual desktop too, 87 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:57.439 if you would, if it's just for that interaction. Yeah, 88 00:04:57.560 --> 00:05:00.360 you know. I funny do you bring this up. Timing's 89 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:02.720 impeccable as usual, mister Franklin, because I was just having 90 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:06.120 to chat about the origins of virtualization, realizing you know, 91 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:11.800 back in the day I was using virtualization for testing installs. Right, 92 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.920 we'd have a baseline. This is the current configuration of 93 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:16.879 the machine at the company. We're gonna put the new 94 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.279 version on. Let's install it. Make sure it doesn't break anything. 95 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.920 This is back in DLL hell days, right, And when 96 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:24.800 it did you could use because you were in virtual machine. 97 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.079 You just rolled back to the state before tweaked the install, 98 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.079 figure out what you did, made mistake you and try 99 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.480 it again. Like it was a great testing platform. And 100 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.000 this is like a cool way to approach that problem. 101 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.319 Not that we have those kinds of DLL hells anymore. 102 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:40.199 Now we have new and extra special DLL health. Is 103 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.040 there such a thing as doctor Hell. I don't know, 104 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.639 Maybe it's I don't know there was doctor help, but 105 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:47.240 it's definitely new get help and yamel hell. I think 106 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.839 everybody on those of this show knows about new get hell. Yeah. 107 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.319 Yeah, yeah, so it's interesting. I would want to, like, 108 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.040 I say, use it for security reasons. Vms are great, 109 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:58.879 but you know they can be slow, and if they're 110 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:00.360 not slow, they're expensive and. 111 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.519 They're big, big, big bulky, Like this is just a 112 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:04.759 lean way to do this. 113 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.879 Yeah, And you use RDP to connect to it, and 114 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.240 so it's pretty cool. But I'd just like to see 115 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:12.879 if I could lock it down and you know, use 116 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.839 it for Internet browsing and email and all those things. 117 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:16.759 So interesting. 118 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.399 If I do get phished, you know, I'm not going 119 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.399 to get ransomwared. That's that's why I would want to use. 120 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:24.839 It, right, or you are, but it's just going to 121 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:26.360 be on a machine that you don't have anything important on, 122 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.279 so you don't care. Just pave it and go again. 123 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:29.720 Yeah yeah, or you. 124 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.000 Don't even have to pave it. You just rebuild the 125 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.199 container and to help you go. 126 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:38.480 Right, yeah, yeah, so long as it doesn't touch your 127 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:40.639 discs and your you know, well. 128 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:41.959 You give it a yeah, he got no rights to 129 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:42.439 anything else. 130 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.240 Give it an area of the disk, and give it 131 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:46.399 limited network. 132 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:48.439 No, it's living in that little space. You put it 133 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.879 on its own virtual network, so it only can communicate 134 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:53.199 the Internet, nothing else in your network. Like, yeah, we've 135 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.120 done all this. This is good honeypot testing and black 136 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:58.000 app testing, like this is where you do this stuff. 137 00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:58.639 It's cool idea. 138 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.240 So it's cool. I'm going to talk to Doane and 139 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.959 Patrick about that on the next security this week. But yeah, 140 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.480 that's what I got. So who's talking to us. 141 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:08.360 Richard grabbed a comment off a show from fifteen sixty 142 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.480 going back a few years. It's from July of twenty 143 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:12.720 eighteen with one Mads Christensen. Maybe you've heard him and 144 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.839 can't wear his glasses very well when we're talking about 145 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.199 writing visual studio extensions, I'm talking about his headshot because 146 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.399 he's got this headshot with his glasses all askew, which 147 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.600 is hilarious inside joke. And admittedly this is a few 148 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:26.879 years ago, so this is a comment from Scott Hirstell 149 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:29.920 who said, holy smokes. After listening to this episode, I 150 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.879 took a dive into the visual studio marketplace to see 151 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.480 what kinds of extensions were available, and after hearing about 152 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:38.680 the image optimizer on the show, Thank you Mads, I 153 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:40.439 figured i'd give web Essentials a shot. One of the 154 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:42.399 most satisfying things about this tool was the ability to 155 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.279 save my files and have the browser automatically reload so 156 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.720 I can check out my changes. There are so many 157 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:50.920 goodies and web Essentials, thank you for your excellent work. 158 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.000 Oh and Fartacus is pretty good too. Everybody at the 159 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:55.920 officer you get a kick out of that one was 160 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.399 this from the era of the fart app was that 161 00:07:58.439 --> 00:07:59.480 what Fardacus was. 162 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:04.199 Yeah, the part is the original fart app for visual studio. 163 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:06.920 So like you press a control key and it goes 164 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:08.319 or something or. 165 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.240 Well, of course there's a hot key, but you can 166 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.319 also you set it up so that when the build fails. 167 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:16.480 Ah, it's that or sad trombone, right. 168 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:20.519 There are some forks of it that does like you know, 169 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:22.360 Homer Simpson kind of. 170 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.279 Oh yeah and stuff. I remember setting up a rig 171 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.360 where when the build failed, it turned on a red 172 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:33.000 flashing light and everybody on the team had nerf guns 173 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:34.480 and you all shot the guy who wrote the bell. 174 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.840 It's nice, yeah, Scott, thank you so much. Here comment 175 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:40.399 and a copy of music Goby is on its way 176 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:41.879 to you. And if you'd like a copy of music Cobe, 177 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:43.799 I write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks 178 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:45.639 dot com or on Facebook, so you publish every show 179 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:47.200 there and if you comment there and I read it 180 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:48.200 on the show, we'll send you a copy. 181 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.519 Music go by and we're talking about music to Code by, 182 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:52.559 which you can get at music to Code by dot net. 183 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:57.200 We have twenty two tracks all in MP three flack 184 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:04.039 or wave format, helping people write code since twenty sixteen. 185 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.399 I can't remember when I started it, but anyway, that's it. 186 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:10.360 So let's talk about nineteen sixty seven. Brother. 187 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:11.600 All right, dude, where do you want to go? 188 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.279 Well, first of all, we were born that year. 189 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.399 My wife is born that year. That's ye happened. 190 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:20.120 But one thing that's really important to me is this 191 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.720 is when Sergeant Peppers was released. 192 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.480 Yeah, right, that's true. 193 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.120 One of the most iconic rock albums of all time. 194 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:30.759 It was also a transformative album for the Beatles too, 195 00:09:30.919 --> 00:09:32.559 like it was a very different style. 196 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:34.440 Well, they were sort of in a rut. I remember 197 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.840 Paul McCartney talking about this. They were in a rut 198 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:40.480 in Beatlemania, you know, and they wanted to break out 199 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:44.200 of the mop top kind of image and they were 200 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.799 just beside themselves. They're like, well, this is who we are. 201 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:49.960 And Paul came up with the idea and he said, 202 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:53.759 what if we just put on these personas and we 203 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.960 wrote music from the perspective of these guys rather than 204 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:02.240 the Beatles, Right, So looks end and it was really 205 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.440 good and it broke them through. That broke them through 206 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.440 their issues. So other things that happen. Of course, it 207 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.720 was the summer of Love Right the Human Being in 208 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:16.360 San Francisco on January fourteenth marked the beginning of the 209 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.000 Summer of Love, attracting over two twenty thousand people celebrating 210 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:24.879 piece of music. Vietnam War, Lynn and Johnson requested more 211 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:26.960 funding for the Vietnam War during his State of the 212 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:31.279 Union of Dress on January tenth. Civil Rights Thirdgod Marshall 213 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.799 was confirmed as the first Black Supreme Court justice on 214 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:38.559 August thirty, big significant milestone. I'll let you talk about 215 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:42.279 science and space, but sure, yeah. I think Jack Ruby 216 00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:46.519 was shot on January third. I think you're a year 217 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.039 too far ahead. Oh really yeah, Oh Jack Ruby's death. 218 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:55.240 Jack Ruby, who killed Lee Harvey Oswald, died on January third. Yeah, 219 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.759 so he died that year. It wasn't he didn't get shot. 220 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.399 I had that backwards. What happened in space and tech? 221 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:03.840 There's all the time. There's a lot of stuff coming 222 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.879 in tech at this point, like the you know, we're 223 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.240 only a year or two away from arpinnet becoming real, 224 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.320 so we're just we're just getting going there. But the 225 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:17.360 language logo is first published in nineteen sixty seven. While 226 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.399 if You're say gets say more, Pact and Cynthia Solomon. 227 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.360 They were working for a company called BBN, who was 228 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.279 also a central part of Arpanet. Sorry, the dog, after 229 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.559 being silent for hours, has decided to bark. 230 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:30.720 Now, Oh that's all right. We have to be real 231 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.240 once in a while, don't we. Yeah, little dog bark 232 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:37.120 never heard anybody. It was logo and a particular type 233 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.720 of language like function, functional or procedural or. 234 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:45.840 It was a it was a It was an interpreted language. 235 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.879 And this is where turtle graphics came from, like sort 236 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:53.759 of vector draw on the screen. Right, Yeah, it's turtle basic. Yeah, well, 237 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:56.879 turtle basics another thing. But this was a turtle logo. 238 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.200 You used turtle graphics as much graphics. We suppose to 239 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.759 be the term they called it logo from the Greek 240 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.039 logos for word or thought. 241 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.320 Interesting. So anything in space yeah. 242 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.840 Well yeah. This is the year of the most launches 243 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.799 in history until twenty twenty one until SpaceX blows the 244 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.440 record out one hundred and seventy two launches during the 245 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:23.759 Soviet Union and the United States. 246 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.279 Wow. 247 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.279 It's also the year of the Apollo one fire. In January, 248 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:32.240 chrisdom and White and Chaffee lose their lives in a 249 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:36.080 plugs out test on the stand and stops the Apollo program. 250 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:36.399 Wow. 251 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.720 For some time as they figure out the mistakes that 252 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:40.960 they were making. There was wiring problems. They were using 253 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:44.559 a pure auction environment, which created more risk. But it's 254 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.519 also the year that they fly for surveyors, which were 255 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.840 the robotic landers for the Moon, three of which will 256 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.000 landsafe on the Moon. The fourth will make a what 257 00:12:53.039 --> 00:13:00.120 they call vigorous land. Also, so use one flies if 258 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:05.120 the first Soyuz flies with a single cosmonaut, Vladimir Komarov, 259 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.559 who will also lose his life after a day in 260 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:09.960 space on the way down, the parachute on his re 261 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:14.879 entry module failed. Any bomb did not survive, and the 262 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.919 Soviets successfully get the Venera four mission after several tries 263 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.799 to Venus and it lasts about ninety minutes before it melts. 264 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:25.720 Yeah, what were they thinking, Hey, let's go to Venus. 265 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.519 Well, now they were trying to You know, they taught 266 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:32.200 us a lot. The Soviets are the only nation to 267 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.879 ever land anything successfully on Venus. Oh, they did land, 268 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.519 but you know, it lasted a while. It's very tough. 269 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:39.679 Conditions are very very hot, high pressure there. 270 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:40.000 Wow. 271 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:42.960 And finally by the end of the year they ratify 272 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:47.159 the Outer Space Treaty, which is especially contrapuntal today now 273 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:49.720 because this is the treaty that says you can't own 274 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:53.759 the Moon and no weapons in space and don't go 275 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:56.639 setting off nukes on the moon, which is one of 276 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.519 the American things. Americans considered doing was to test a 277 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.320 nuclear upon on the Moon. So that doesn't happen, and 278 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:04.879 the out of space were you're supposed to stop all that. 279 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:06.960 Now there's a conversation about does this treaty still make 280 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:08.960 sense because it's from nineteen sixty seven. It's a long 281 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:11.679 time ago, and now that we're actually talking about utilizing 282 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.120 resources on the moon, how do we make this work? 283 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.919 Very cool? Yeah, good stuff. I think this year's geekout 284 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.039 is going to be really good. Are the geek outs? 285 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.639 Yeah, there's going to be a few geekouts, including when 286 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.440 after this, when this show is published, I'll have already 287 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.320 taken a tour of Copenhagen Atomics thorium reactors, so oh wow, 288 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.200 Either I'll be dead or I'll have a phenomenal interview 289 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.919 with their team talking about building thorium right, or both. 290 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:42.200 As it turns out, you'll publish it posthumously, right, I'll 291 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:45.679 actually there's no They're in Denmark and Denmark does not 292 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.039 allow nuclear reactors, so what a great place to build one. Yeah, 293 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:51.000 and so what I don't have a whole lot of 294 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:53.639 risk there. They're actually making it portable enough that they're 295 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:57.279 going to take it to Switzerland to operate it as 296 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.240 a test run. Then they're allowed to bring it back 297 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:02.279 as long as it's not operating and do some tests 298 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.320 evaluations of it. So that's what's going to be good 299 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.960 with that. But yeah, no exciting times. Don't worry the fall. 300 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.159 This winter's geek outs will be big, yeah, and there 301 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:11.120 may be a few extra ones. 302 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.279 Yeah, all right, and with that, let's bring on Mads. 303 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.279 Mads Christiansen is a program manager on the Visual Studio 304 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.399 team at Microsoft, with the privilege to work with the 305 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:24.320 extension community and ecosystem. He's an avid extension writer himself, 306 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.919 with over one hundred published extensions to Visual Studio Marketplace. 307 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:31.440 Before joining Microsoft, he spent a decade as a web developer, 308 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.039 working at both startups and enterprise companies. His wife and 309 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.200 two young sons all enjoy and support his adventures in 310 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.879 the world of home automation. Welcome back mads. 311 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:42.799 Hey, guys, glad to be here. 312 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.679 You mad extension writer. You. 313 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.000 I think we're over two hundred now, wow, crazy, got 314 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.360 to update your bios. You are the marketplace, sir. 315 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:52.480 That's right. 316 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.519 Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of extensions out there. 317 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.879 So far be it from me to use dot net 318 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.360 rocks as a place where I can get a personal 319 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.240 answer about some feature that I want in visual studio. 320 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:05.639 But I'm going to do it anyway. 321 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:06.399 Yeah, go ahead. 322 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:09.879 So I've noticed, you know, I'm a Blazer developer mostly, 323 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:13.879 and when I'm building a web application, I noticed that 324 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:19.120 every time I hit play, the position and size of 325 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:24.039 the browser that comes up is automatically set something to 326 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:28.200 where the last browser window that had focus is. And 327 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.360 it drives me absolutely nuts. And because you know, I've 328 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:33.919 got windows all over the place, and if I click 329 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.519 on the one to mute the TV that I'm watching, 330 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:39.039 and then I go back and press play, now it's 331 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.879 over the TV window, right. So I wanted to know 332 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.879 if there's an extension that you've created to automatically set 333 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.039 the position and location of a browser every time you 334 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:49.440 run it. 335 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:53.320 Well, no, I have not written anything for it, but 336 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.919 this is I don't know how this is, like it 337 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:58.600 happens to me too when it has nothing to do 338 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:01.879 with Mitchell Studio. Right, but if you have multiple you know, 339 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.200 edge browsers open, you have one for your work account 340 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.200 and one for your private or whatever, right, and you 341 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:08.480 then click a link and outlook, Yeah, it will open 342 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:10.279 it in the last browser you had active. 343 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.359 Yeah, so it's a browser thing. But surely there must 344 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.039 be a way to tell the browser. Yeah, open it here, 345 00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:17.559 like in JavaScript or something. 346 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.599 Yeah, and really you don't want to even doc that, 347 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.200 you know, the tap It should just be its own thing, right, Yeah? Yeah, 348 00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:25.640 did you? I don't. I don't know if we I've 349 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.319 never seen this request before, but that doesn't mean it 350 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:30.960 doesn't exist. If it does exist, you should vote for 351 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:31.759 it or create it. 352 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.160 I entered it as a suggestion in the Visual Studio. 353 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.000 There's a link too. Yeah I did that. I haven't 354 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:39.200 heard back yet. I just didn't know. I went looking 355 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.039 and I didn't see anything. But I figured, you know, 356 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:43.519 if anybody knows Mad's nos, Yeah, so. 357 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.400 Make sure you put a link in so that everyone, 358 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:46.799 any listener can go and vote. 359 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.240 For There you go, Yeah, leverage leverage the podcast friend 360 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.519 if you get it voted up to the top, you know, 361 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.480 then they're they're going to talk about it. Oh yeah, 362 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:56.599 that's cool, that is their priority list. 363 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.759 Yeah, well, we don't know. Sometimes you see something like 364 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.119 this and you think, oh, yeah, this is not going 365 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:03.880 to be that hard to do, right, Yeah, and then 366 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.400 it turns out it's really really hard to do. Right. 367 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.519 So even though you are able to vote something up 368 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.119 to the top, that doesn't guarantee that we can do 369 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.079 it if it's like really expensive. 370 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.559 Right, or or we don't know how well, and you 371 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.240 always have the niche problem, right, like a certain group 372 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:20.599 of people really want this, but it represents a tiny 373 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.720 amount of the customer base, Like there's always got to 374 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.000 be a waiting on those kinds of Well, it depends. 375 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:27.880 I think it's one of those features that people don't 376 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.880 know they need it until they get frustrated enough and 377 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.880 say what the heck right exactly? 378 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.440 And we usually say that, you know, one vote or 379 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.599 one bug represent a thousand people. 380 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.680 Yeah, so yeah, it won't. 381 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:43.039 It doesn't have that many people like or it's a 382 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.000 small niche. Let's say it's only five percent of you know, 383 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.519 Visual Studios user base or whatever, but that's still like 384 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:53.359 hundreds of thousands of people, right right, So it's important 385 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.359 that you know even the small things are big just 386 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.599 because we're dealing with like millions of monthly active users, 387 00:18:58.680 --> 00:18:59.480 right right right. 388 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:02.440 I heard that you guys are I don't know who 389 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.160 you guys is, but Microsoft engineers are required to look 390 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.240 at that list twice a week and actually look at 391 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.119 all the new suggestions. 392 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.680 Yeah we so we don't really have a requirement for that, 393 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.759 but we are required to fix any high important bugs 394 00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.279 like P one' or P two priority one or zero 395 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.559 bugs okay, and they have we have an whole SLA, 396 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.200 like a service license agreement there with like that we 397 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.039 have to fix them for the next service release that 398 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:36.839 we that we publish like on a weekly basis. So yeah, 399 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:40.400 we take that stuff really seriously. So you probably can't 400 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.759 do that without looking at your list of bugs twice 401 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.359 a week. But there's no requirement for looking at the list. 402 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.680 The requirement is to fix them. Yeah, but that's for bugs, 403 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:52.920 that's not for feature requests. 404 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:55.720 Oh right, yeah, yeah, this is this is just the 405 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.519 suggestion list, I guess future requests list. 406 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:04.240 Yeah, yeah, well we have actually do we do implement 407 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.079 one point two feature requests per workday. 408 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:07.759 Wow. 409 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.000 If you look at the average of the last twelve months, wow, 410 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:11.480 and that that trend is going up. 411 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.680 Wow. Are you guys going faster or are they get 412 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.759 requests getting easier? Like, how do you get that quest? No? 413 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:19.680 I think it's a little bit of a mind shift. 414 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.160 I don't know if you've noticed it over the last 415 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.680 two or three years. But things that before wasn't prioritized 416 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.039 because it was maybe had low impact, Like some bugs 417 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:30.720 come in or some feature requests come in and they 418 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:34.519 kind of have low impact. They don't you know, some 419 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.079 of these suggestions were not like something that would open 420 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.000 new scenarios. They might just be like little delighters or hey, 421 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:43.200 it would be nice if but they weren't like blocking 422 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:45.000 you for doing what you needed to do. And we 423 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.920 had a hard time prioritizing that type of feature request 424 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.440 in the past, whereas now it's a little different because 425 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:54.160 you know, when you're using visual studio eight ten hours 426 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.319 a day, you're using half your waken live in visual studio, right, 427 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.799 it's kind of crazy. So all these little things, because 428 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:05.279 you're using it so much, they become big and they're 429 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:09.839 big things. And so by kind of making that change, 430 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.039 of mindset a little bit to look at things differently. 431 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.279 We've been able to double down on a bunch of 432 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.640 the small issues and a bunch of the small like 433 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:25.519 paper cuts, industry standard things, muscle memory issues that didn't 434 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.240 before carry over from other apps into Visual Studio for shortcuts, 435 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.359 for instance, like just taking them one out of time, 436 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.759 Like let's just double down on that type of stuff, 437 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:39.480 and you know it. I think the shift is if 438 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.359 you know, this sounds super cliche, but the shift I 439 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.519 think has gone a little bit from focusing, you know, 440 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:50.599 primarily on productivity and instead of focusing more on happiness, 441 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.079 like developer happiness. You can't be happy developer if you're 442 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.960 not productive. So it includes the productivity thing, but it's more. 443 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.000 It's also about like are you looking forward to working 444 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.000 studio every morning? 445 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:01.240 Right? 446 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.559 Is there a smile on your face? Do you feel empowered? Inspired, creative? 447 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:08.680 This vis studio kind of get out of the way 448 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.200 when it needs to and help you when that's a requirement, 449 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:14.200 like all that type of stuff. 450 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.279 I've got issues. 451 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:18.319 We all have issues, probably. 452 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:21.519 Probably nothing to do with what you work on, but 453 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.960 isn't me or has GitHub co pilot just completely taken 454 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.319 over like now I start typing a variable and it 455 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:34.079 gives me this long thing and there are gray letters 456 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.000 in there that are like and as I'm typing, like, 457 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:39.440 it's I don't even know when I'm typed, I have 458 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:43.079 no idea what's going on. It's gotten so crazy. Yeah, 459 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:45.400 and I know you can control that, but. 460 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.079 So you can control it now. So what we're adding 461 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.640 is a way for that not to happen automatically, but 462 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:54.799 only at a keyboard short cut. So instead of having 463 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.920 it automatically show up, it can be only when you 464 00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.279 request ith. 465 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:00.640 Okay, I like, so. 466 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.880 You you you can control more of that because some 467 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:06.319 people they really like kind of that feeling of just 468 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.240 tapping their way through and and other people they really 469 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:11.880 want not to have that. And so now you can 470 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.160 figure it. You can. You can now customize it. 471 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.079 How about a foot switch? 472 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:17.920 Yeah you can do on off. Yeah you can do that. 473 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.559 I love I love foot switches. I'm a musician, right, 474 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.240 so I have guitar pedals and stuff, but you know, 475 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.440 if I had a little pedal board under my you know, 476 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.319 to to Oh, I want that feature. I want that feature, 477 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:35.960 these momentary on off toggles, that'd be so cool. Somebody 478 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:36.359 should do. 479 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.079 That, that'd be the equivalent of a distortion distortion pedal. 480 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.160 There you go, yeah, exactly. You know I'd add some 481 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.759 distortion to my to my API controllers. 482 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:48.599 Yes, yeah, you know a lot of a lot of 483 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.559 effort goes into it. And the new version of visual 484 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:53.400 Studio here is like it's a big foundational upgrade when 485 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.119 it comes to to AI. So with with visual Studio, 486 00:23:57.160 --> 00:23:59.839 we are in a unique position where we know a 487 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:04.079 lot about all the different aspects off your workflow. We 488 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:06.759 know about your GET issues, it's your tracker. We know 489 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:10.839 about profiling and debugging and unit testing, and maybe we 490 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.519 know about your CICD, and we know about your let's say, 491 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:18.079 ASTRA deployment environments and whatnot. And so the more we 492 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.720 know and the more Copiled is able to understand, the 493 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:25.599 more useful it can become. And so this is really 494 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.359 kind of one of those foundational updates that kind of 495 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:32.279 infrastructure wise sets us up for the future and for 496 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:36.559 adding features on top that's like way more that goes 497 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.160 way deeper and just more helpful. 498 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:43.599 And are you guys, guidance seems to be like an issue, 499 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.160 But then again, I don't go looking for it. I'm 500 00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:49.079 so spoiled by chatch ept searching the web for me 501 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:51.880 that I'm really disappointed when I go to Google and 502 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.680 I type something and I don't get like good results, 503 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.119 you know. So like a video that explains how to 504 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:04.039 control co pilot, I'm sure is out there. I'm just 505 00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:06.640 conditioned to not go look for it. 506 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:09.480 Yeah, it's out there, and a lot more will come. 507 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:12.359 But yeah, there's a bunch of great videos out there 508 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:15.240 already and articles and tutorials and whatnot. 509 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:16.960 Oh I know, yeah that's good stuff. 510 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:19.200 But I think but it's an interesting thing, right because 511 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.599 the question is always like why do you need why 512 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.640 do you need a description of how to do something right? 513 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.680 It should be autodiscoverable just by the way you design 514 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:30.200 the software. 515 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:32.400 Well yeah, more importantly, if you know how to do it, 516 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:33.480 just do it right. 517 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:35.519 Yeah that's another thing. 518 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.799 Can we skip over? They don't explain this to me, 519 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.400 just do it? Phase Like, yeah, I'm tired, I got 520 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.039 stuff to do, Like, let's move on. Yeah. 521 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.119 I mean I suppose you could use the copilot agent, 522 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.680 you know, or chat in visual studio to help you 523 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.519 figure those things out. I find that to be a 524 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.680 very valuable tool. 525 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.960 Yeah, And you know, but sometimes the best prompt is 526 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.119 no prompt. So that's that's when you have a let's 527 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:00.720 say you have a button that us or it comes 528 00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:02.839 up automatically, and so we have we have that in 529 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.200 Ryan Vischoustudo. You're going to see more of that, whereas 530 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:08.440 not the burden on prompting and knowing how to use 531 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.839 it is no no longer on you. Yeah, it's like 532 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:13.839 if you if you want to write a commit message, 533 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:16.359 there's a button there. There's a generate commit message, right, 534 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:18.480 and so you don't have to prompt, you just click 535 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:20.880 a button. That makes it easy, right. Or we just 536 00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:23.599 released a new way of optimizing your code, so you 537 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:25.720 can you can just make a selection of your c 538 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:28.599 sharp or whatever or VB and then you can say, hey, 539 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.559 rite click and say optimize this code, and you don't 540 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.720 have to prompt because what are you optimizing for? Like 541 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.000 is it PERF? Is it readability? Is it quality? What 542 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.720 is it? You know, exception handling like or something like 543 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.039 what is it? And so that burden of prompting and 544 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:45.720 kind of if we can take that away and make 545 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.839 it so that there's no prompt at all, then you're 546 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:51.359 probably in many in many cases, you're going to be faster, 547 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:53.759 and you're going to but faster and more accurate, but 548 00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:56.799 you're also going to be it's also going to be 549 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.039 discoverable that you can do this. 550 00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:01.160 Yeah, that's the challenge is how do you tell me 551 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.920 you could optimize that code within it out interrupting me 552 00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:05.440 or annoying me in the process. 553 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:09.480 That is the challenge. Yeah, exactly, and it becomes clippy 554 00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:10.720 right otherwise. 555 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.480 Yeah, that's right, that's always the dance for us. Right, 556 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:19.440 It's like I all the studio does is better than anybody. 557 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.400 But all those little icons and floaties and squiggles, but 558 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:27.160 all these little clues that hey I know something about 559 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:28.920 your code you may not know. 560 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:33.039 And if you install code Rush, now you're at another 561 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:36.839 level of icon crazy, right, Yeah, talking about. 562 00:27:36.960 --> 00:27:39.160 Well, you know what they say, clippy walk so Copela 563 00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:39.559 can run. 564 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:44.960 There you go, and took a lot of flak in 565 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:45.680 the process. 566 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:51.400 I still remember this on this quiz show wait wait, 567 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.440 don't tell me on NPR. You know, Adam Felber is 568 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.960 a comedian and he's on there, and when Microsoft announced 569 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.480 that they were getting rid of Clippy, right, that Clippy 570 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:07.640 was was dead Adam Felbery because hey, I see you're 571 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:09.880 digging a grave? Is that a business grave or a 572 00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.839 personal grave? Can I help you dig that? 573 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:16.079 Can I help you? 574 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:20.680 It's funny, Richard. Maybe you remember there was a conference 575 00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:23.000 where there was we had someone in the Clippy costume 576 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:23.599 walk around. 577 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.359 Oh yeah, I remember that, and it was immensely popular. 578 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.000 Everybody walked up in high five. 579 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.680 Hugely powered. Everybody loves Clippy. But it's like, yeah, because 580 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:31.279 it's a meme. 581 00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:33.680 Yeah totally. It's like comic sense. 582 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:36.559 Yeah, yes, except that it feels good when you punch. 583 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.400 It wasn't meant to be serious. I don't know why 584 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:39.880 you're using it, Like, what are you thinking? 585 00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:43.000 I use it in a PowerPoint presentation sometimes and it 586 00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:43.759 throws people off. 587 00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:45.640 Well, and if we wanted to do even more O 588 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.480 pick Rob references. We talk about Windows Bob because at 589 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:52.880 least one of the Clippy characters was that dog from Bob, 590 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.359 designed by the same person, Glenda Gates. I think you 591 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.680 know when you can use those characters, Yeah it was yeah, Melinda, Yeah, 592 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:01.359 I don't know that she did clipp. 593 00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:03.640 You it was a wizard as well. It was one 594 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.359 of the characters that you could use those characters from 595 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:09.240 from back then, there was a remember for Internet Explore. 596 00:29:09.240 --> 00:29:14.319 That was the Yeah, there was a called the Microsoft Agent. 597 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.160 Yeah, the Agent, Yes, and you could with JavaScript or 598 00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.400 VBScript probably be you could, like. 599 00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:24.240 I actually used that in an early online training tool 600 00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:26.839 that I wrote, which characters the Wizard. But you could 601 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:29.680 use whatever you wanted to. But the idea is you 602 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:31.839 could program him to fly around on the screen and 603 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:36.039 point to things and explain stuff. So yeah, that didn't 604 00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.519 last time. It was fun while it lasted, but it 605 00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:39.279 didn't last. 606 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.039 Yeah, but you know, these all feel like attempts now 607 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.039 to what these ll ms can do for us. 608 00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.519 Yeah, it's really impressive. So we have I think there's 609 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.079 like a couple of categories of where this is, where 610 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:57.079 this is useful. So one is where we can learn 611 00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.720 and we become better developers. So let me take you 612 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.440 a example. Is the new Profiler Agent, which is the 613 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.200 one feature we're building on top of this foundational infrastructure 614 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:10.160 change in Visual Studio twenty twenty six, and it's the 615 00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.839 Profiler Agent is able to run the profiler in Visual Studio, 616 00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:15.720 which we've had for a long time, but very few 617 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.799 people use it. It's kind of hard to it's an 618 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.599 advanced concept. It's not easy to kind of understand. But 619 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.960 this new agent can do it for you. And it 620 00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:27.160 can write benchmarks like using benchmark dot net. Wow, it 621 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.319 will add benchmark or run if there's existing ones, and 622 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:32.880 it can then find the hot paths. Then it can 623 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.559 give you a laundrylease stuff. Here's what I want to 624 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:38.000 do to optimize performance. It can then simulate that with 625 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:40.880 the and then run the new and run the benchmarks 626 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.759 again to see what the performance benefit will be. And 627 00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.119 then you can just tell okay, go ahead, or if 628 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.559 there's something that you don't understand because that's the problem. 629 00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:52.279 Even if you run the profiler and it says, hey, 630 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:54.880 this line is very expensive or this method call is 631 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.839 very expensive, how do you know how to optimize it? Right? 632 00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.440 All right? Yeah, it's like okay, the software has criticized me. 633 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:06.200 Now what yeah, now what yeah, exactly, it found my problems. 634 00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:08.359 Now what are the solutions? Right? It didn't help me there, 635 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.240 but now you get that help and so you know, 636 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.440 it could be you know, maybe I have a dictionary 637 00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:15.319 that I use a linquery on and it says, hey, 638 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:17.160 if you use a hasset, we're going to be eighty 639 00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.640 percent faster in this particular case, and you'll be like, oh, 640 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.039 that's neat next time I run into a similar scenario, 641 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:28.839 I'm going to remember this hasset thing. And so you 642 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:31.519 learn along the way. And so I really like that 643 00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:35.160 idea where the copole comes in sits beside you kind 644 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:39.079 of and and you kind of get to that destination. 645 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.720 Together makes you a better developer, You become better. 646 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:43.240 Yeah, you know this reminds me of the old optimizing 647 00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.000 website stags. We're using the profiling tools to see that 648 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:51.400 locus of concentration, Like, hey, this is a big expensive process, 649 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:53.200 but it only gets run once an hour, so we're 650 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:55.599 not going to optimize that. But this little thing, this 651 00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:58.759 settle thing, is being running four hundred times a second, 652 00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.720 and if we can shave one hundred milliseconds out of it, 653 00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:02.599 it's worth it. 654 00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:02.480 Now. 655 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:05.759 Is there such a thing as an agent that understands 656 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.799 SEQL and SQL profiling, because I would love to turn 657 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.279 that loose on you know, hey, why is this query 658 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:13.799 taking so long? And what? 659 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:14.279 Yeah? 660 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:15.680 I think you know what index do? 661 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:17.920 Is? What indexes do I need to add to make 662 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:18.559 it work better? 663 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.839 That kind of thing that might be in for as 664 00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.920 as a mess. Yeah, if you looked at the Latest 665 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:24.720 Days is a mess I have. 666 00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:27.599 Yeah, and I know it's based on the whole visual studio, 667 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:33.119 you know, fundamental environment, So did also have those. 668 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.680 I haven't played with it for a mess twenty one 669 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:41.000 twenty two preview. You might see something more updated there 670 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:43.079 in that regard. I'm not sure. I haven't followed along 671 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:43.359 that course. 672 00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:46.960 Yeah, there's a twenty five coming that's likely out in November, 673 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:50.319 not that I know anything, but I'm speculating because that's 674 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:51.920 when they would normally ship it. 675 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.440 It should be in preview by the time the airs. 676 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:57.480 Somewhere in the quote unquote ignite time frame. And I 677 00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:58.839 imagine there's going to be all kinds of. 678 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.799 Imagine there's going to be more a tooling seems like, 679 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:04.839 you know that's where development is heading is in you know, 680 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:06.599 the innovation is happening in AI. 681 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.440 Well, there's all the new helpers, right like we saw 682 00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.920 this extensively with Microsoft Fabric. Not to go too far 683 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.000 off track here, but because Fabric touches so many different tools. 684 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.440 When you're doing data analytics and you've got POWERBI and 685 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.799 the data warehousing clients and these different storage mechanisms in 686 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:25.240 the lake and so forth, each one you don't use 687 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:27.000 enough to be really proficient with so the fact that 688 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:28.960 it was a copilot at each layer, it's like, what'd 689 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.039 you want to do? Let me help you there, Like 690 00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:32.400 it's really powerful. 691 00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:34.559 It seems like a good time to take a break. Yeah, 692 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.400 So we'll be right back after these very important messages. 693 00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:42.480 Stay tuned. Did you know you can easily migrate asp 694 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.799 net web apps to Windows containers on AWS? Use the 695 00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:51.319 app to Container tool to containerize your iis websites and 696 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:56.759 deploy to AWS managed container services with or without Kubernetes. 697 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:01.039 Find out more about app to Container and aw dot Amazon, 698 00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:08.760 dot Com, Slash, dot Net, slash Modernize, and we're back. 699 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:12.360 It's dot net Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin's my friend Richard Campbell. Hey, 700 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.960 and that's our friend Mads Christensen, the Mad indentist of 701 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:19.960 Visual Studio Extensions. 702 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:23.280 And Mad's you said, Studio twenty twenty six. So is 703 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:25.880 this official? What are we expecting in the version of 704 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:26.840 Studio next year? 705 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:28.079 No, it's out in preview. 706 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.239 It is okay, so it's not next year, it's like 707 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:34.280 imminently right now. One would speculate because there's certain events 708 00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:35.639 coming up towards the end of the year. 709 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.440 Hey, but you know, I'm not in the business of speculation, no, so, 710 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:42.400 but you know we when did we ship visuals do 711 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:43.360 to twenty twenty. 712 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:46.719 Two in fall of twenty one? As I recall, maybe, yeah, 713 00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:49.320 so I'm just doing math. How much did the whole 714 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.760 AI wave derail? You guys, Like, I don't envy your 715 00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:54.519 situation because you push that out in the fall of 716 00:34:54.599 --> 00:35:00.079 twenty twenty one. Chat GBT is the next year, and 717 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.920 you know, get Hub Copilot's already out, So that's a 718 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.360 thing like this, It's been a it's been a while, 719 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:09.880 Like you're not talking four years between versions of the studio, 720 00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:13.679 but they've been some nutty years, a little pandemic, a 721 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.800 little revolutionary computing, like wooh. 722 00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:20.480 It's been it's like a train that hits you, right, 723 00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.519 It's yeah, it was it was like that. Yeah. We 724 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:26.679 we changed the whole ORC structure, change, all of that 725 00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:28.960 changed in the past couple of years to accommodate this. 726 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:35.000 So there's no question where that this is like such 727 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:40.920 a groundbreaking change for everybody, and I think we're probably 728 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:43.199 on the forefront of it because we are we are 729 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.760 kind of the lower layers of that that enables others 730 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:46.480 to kind of use. 731 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:49.440 A name, and you're expected to dog food the new 732 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.000 bits so you're seeing it before we see it. 733 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.519 So all that was like really heavy. But I think 734 00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:56.599 like this year when we look at like get ub 735 00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.159 copilot adoption, like this year is where it's really exploded. Yeah, 736 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:02.119 so I think the l ms now are so good 737 00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:04.360 with the you know, clots on at for another like 738 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.679 they're just GPT five, like they're finally at a place 739 00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:10.000 Jim and I are two point five is you know? 740 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.199 Was also another one that was like, Okay, this is. 741 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:13.760 Good, real good. 742 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.159 So I got a story for you. I was trying 743 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:18.320 to solve a CSS problem and I knew it was 744 00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.320 a CSS problem, but I wasn't quite sure how to 745 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:22.639 solve it because you know, I'm a C sharp programmer, 746 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.280 not a CSS guy. And I asked Chatchept. I spent 747 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:29.840 an hour with chatchyp Yeah, I like that he's holding 748 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:35.119 up the mugs. CSS is awesome outside of the box. 749 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.880 I set the challenge to chat Ept. I spent an 750 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.719 hour with chatchept, and it could not figure out, for 751 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.559 the life of itself, how to fix this problem. So 752 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.519 then I went to get hub Copilot. I just created 753 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.960 a new private repo in gethub with a scaled down example. 754 00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:00.679 Get ub co Pilot scratched its head for like forty 755 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.719 minutes and then came back with the wrong answer. Then 756 00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:06.639 I went to Gemini and I, because Gemini is like 757 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:10.079 built into Chrome, right, you can ask Gemini how do 758 00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:15.599 I fix this? And it completely baffled itself. It did 759 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.320 not have the answer. Then I went back in the 760 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.239 visual studio and I went to agent mode and I 761 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.760 picked Claude Son at three point five and I said 762 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.480 do this, And it was literally less than three minutes 763 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.360 and it had figured it out. Claude's Son. It is 764 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:32.400 the bomb for CSS anyway. 765 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:33.360 It's really good. 766 00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.960 Yeah, and you're sort of speaking to that sort of 767 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:39.519 new reality that just harnished the agents you got. You 768 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:41.719 want a client that has access to all of them, 769 00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:43.719 and you can try your different problems on different right 770 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:45.440 on different models. 771 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:47.719 So that's that's really nice. You can now you can 772 00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:49.599 bring your own keys what we call it, right, You 773 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.119 can bring your own API key and plug in you know, 774 00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.639 any other clod model or whatever. So but it's it, 775 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.360 you know, it really depends a lot of a things. 776 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:02.199 One is the context you give it like what does 777 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:05.719 it understand about your project? And the other thing is 778 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.800 the prompt, like how are you prompting it? And so 779 00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:11.280 that's the challenge because you know at what point I'll 780 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:13.880 be becoming prompting engineers. I always think that sounds a 781 00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:16.880 little bit too big for what it is, Like it's 782 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:18.920 a different way of asking a question. You know, does 783 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:22.119 that make you a prompt engineer? But but you know 784 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:23.119 there's some truth to that. 785 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.000 I guess, you know, yeah, because I'm all, you know, 786 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:26.480 I do a favorite of writing, so it must be 787 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:27.480 a sentence engineer. 788 00:38:27.639 --> 00:38:31.280 Also, yeah, exactly paragraph engineer. 789 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.760 Don't get crazy now trying to get there. 790 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.280 So but what I what I do like is you know, 791 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.199 I mentioned the thing where it kind of makes you better, 792 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:42.519 you become a better developer. But the other aspect is 793 00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:44.800 that it will it will allow you to do things 794 00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:48.239 that you couldn't do before. So when I mentioned this 795 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:52.159 stuff about the profiler right before, like I'm not a 796 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.280 very low level developer, like I don't I don't go 797 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.920 into unsafety sharp for instance, right, Like I've never used 798 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.119 a volatile keyword. I don't know what it does, and 799 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.159 I'm kind of afraid to know. 800 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:03.840 But the name tells you everything you want to know. 801 00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:09.920 That's right, stay away, Yeah, danger here across. 802 00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.960 So that door was closed to me, right, And but 803 00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.679 with this this new profile agent, for instance, it can 804 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:19.440 come in and it can teach me stuff. I can 805 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:21.280 see how to do this, it can it can kick 806 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:23.760 in the door that was otherwise closed to Yeah, and 807 00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:28.079 so it makes the impossible possible. And I really like 808 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:31.119 that because it's like that. And then it doesn't go there, 809 00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:32.840 It doesn't open the door and walk in on its own. 810 00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:35.559 It takes me with it, right, we walk in together, 811 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.920 and that I think that's the magic part. I think 812 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.280 a lot of people miss that. They think, oh, you know, Copila, 813 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:43.039 that's going to take over my job or whatever, but 814 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.039 it is. It is really a cold pilot. I think 815 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:46.639 that's important. 816 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:48.519 Yeah, I'm looking forward to the day and I don't 817 00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:51.159 think it we're here yet. But it doesn't do really 818 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:55.239 well with graphics and you know, animation and all that 819 00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:58.360 stuff yet that's not really in the in the models 820 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.199 that I know anyway. But I'm looking forward to the 821 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:04.920 day where I can think about something that I never 822 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:09.000 thought of before doing because I know it's completely outside 823 00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.480 my wheelhouse. And then and then engaging some AI to 824 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:17.119 help me figure that stuff out. But otherwise I would 825 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:19.360 I would never have attempted it. But and I'm not 826 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:22.360 talking about for professional reasons, like I would never say 827 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.400 yes if a customer asked me to do something like that, 828 00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.360 but you know, for for messing around and you know, 829 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.960 writing some fun games or something, I would totally be 830 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:31.360 into it. 831 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:34.599 Did you see the Scott Hanselman and Mark Prosenovitch they 832 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.199 did this shader using copony. They had no idea how 833 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.119 to write a shrader, and they did it. And they 834 00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:42.480 could use it as a background kind of animation movie 835 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.440 thing that just ran in the background up the windows terminal. Yeah, 836 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:48.360 and they've never written the shad before. And so again 837 00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:50.400 that was a door that was to go. They could 838 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:52.519 have learned they had spent their time doing that. 839 00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:53.400 But good stuff. 840 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:54.599 Here we are well. 841 00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:56.960 And that's always the thing, Like you have skills, you 842 00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.480 know you could do this, but your list of needs, 843 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:02.679 the things, you know, priority list is so long. 844 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:06.280 That's exactly it. You know, I got kids and family 845 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.280 and stuff. I gotta leave work, and then I gotta 846 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:10.559 leave work. I can't just you know, keep going. And 847 00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:13.519 that's the most most people are in a situation like that, 848 00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:15.880 your time is limited, and so having that kind of 849 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:18.679 AI sitting there and being helpful to I think it's 850 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:22.079 really good. Another one that's really helpful is it can 851 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.599 increase your velocity. So I have a three hundred and 852 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.079 something repos on GIDDA right, a lot of extensions and 853 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:31.280 NU could package libraries and whatnot, and I get a 854 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.159 bunch of feature requests and bug reporting, and I can't 855 00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:36.239 really as a single person, I can't do all of 856 00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:38.719 these things. But I can have the coding D and 857 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:41.000 I can assign a task, say hey, can you take 858 00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:42.719 a look at this bug? Can you fix that? Or 859 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.000 take a look at this feature request? And the more 860 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:46.840 you use it, the more you kind of understand what 861 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.159 it can do. And then you know, oh, this is 862 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.760 a great candidate for the copilot. 863 00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.360 Sure to do for me. If you want one hundred 864 00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.159 percent unit test coverage, you know, you could beat your 865 00:41:57.159 --> 00:41:59.000 interns as much as you want to try and get there, 866 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:01.039 but boy, the soft or knocks it out. 867 00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.199 Yeah that's right. 868 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:04.960 Yeah, yeah, So I feel like you can your A. 869 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.159 Your velocity can go up if you if you know 870 00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.559 how to use it in the right way. But that 871 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:12.119 now you have, but then you learn that too write. 872 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.280 So there's some new stuff to learn. And I think 873 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.320 that's important that we do it and whatever time we've got, 874 00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:20.559 but don't dismiss it up front. 875 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.159 One hundred percent coverage. I would set that on to 876 00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:25.480 go on a Friday night and then go away for 877 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.559 the weekend. For some of these projects that I have, 878 00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:30.159 there's so big. Well. 879 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.559 One of the patterns I've gotten into now when I'm 880 00:42:33.639 --> 00:42:35.800 asking the tools to write code is that they sort 881 00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:37.400 of do a tdd thing. I want you to write 882 00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:39.960 the test as well. And one of the effects I 883 00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:44.159 found with that was that often if you made too 884 00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.079 big of a request, it wouldn't finish it. Yes, and 885 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:50.559 so including the tests and keep iterating this until all 886 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:55.039 the tests passed. Actually create a pattern to finish the 887 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:56.199 code request. Right. 888 00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.719 I don't like, you know, dot dot dot, you know, 889 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.280 finish the implementation here. No, you finish it. That's what 890 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:04.679 I'm asking you. 891 00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:08.679 That's what you do, you piece of software. 892 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:10.239 You what I do? 893 00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:11.880 Is that what you do? 894 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:12.960 Yeah? 895 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:16.119 Nice? But I feel like more and more we're the 896 00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:20.760 project managers, right Like you're managing you only write certain 897 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:22.559 bits of code that you're like, well, the tool's going 898 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.679 to have at the time with this, but most of 899 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:27.639 the other code you're you're just doling it out and 900 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:30.320 checking it in. I feel like software developers are uniquely 901 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.079 qualified in the scenario because the tools like GitHub and 902 00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:37.159 things like, we're used to taking contributions from unknown sources 903 00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:40.880 in some respects, and what's more unknown than an LLM, right, Like, 904 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:44.880 just makes sense that okay, and it comes evaluated, you know, 905 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.159 run it through the process integrated. 906 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.000 And let's get meta here, Like you ask the copilot 907 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:52.679 to write you something and it does a pull request 908 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.440 and you check out that pull request. Now you should 909 00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:58.360 have an agent test that pull request. Sure, why not 910 00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:02.760 have another third part? Right? And so thinking about this 911 00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:05.360 in terms of, oh, it's not just this one agent 912 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:08.679 that I'm interacting with, but multiple agents that do different 913 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:12.159 things better than the other kind. That's this is the future, 914 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:12.440 I think. 915 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:15.800 Yeah, we're already seeing with the mcps, for instance, where 916 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:19.360 they know now you have the playwright and it can 917 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:23.079 go ahead and unbelievable too, launch your new pro request 918 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:25.679 and the browser and test that it works. And I 919 00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:26.920 mean it's pretty phenomenal. 920 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:29.719 The thing that got me with the playwright MCP was 921 00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:33.039 the ownership of the test problem on my part. Now 922 00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.039 is a set of prompts about what I need to 923 00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:38.679 valuate it on this website, And so as playwright changes 924 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:40.719 on you and the site changes on you, you don't 925 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:44.360 have to rewrite the test. They're regenerated by the prompt. Yeah. 926 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:45.599 Yeah, yeah, that's nice. 927 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:48.480 Yeah yeah, it's powerful, and it's just a funny way 928 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:53.440 to think about software. And I don't know if necessarily 929 00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:55.000 like it's fun in the sense that I'm getting a 930 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:57.320 lot done, but it's not fun in the sense of 931 00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.079 like that old school flowing with code thing that I 932 00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:03.239 used to do once in a while. It's not the 933 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:06.320 same when you're shepherding all these tools, like you're you're 934 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:10.400 kind of running an interrupt driven method of coding where 935 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.360 various bits are coming back from different agents and you're 936 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.239 trying to pull them together. It's like, where are we 937 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:17.039 in the overall problem space here? 938 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:21.199 You're definitely more of a conductor of an orchestra now 939 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.920 when you take really take full advantage of all this stuff. 940 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.480 But I don't I don't see that as Hey, the 941 00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.960 role of the software engineer is changing. It's just that 942 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:32.599 we do we work in a slightly different way. And 943 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.880 so we also now orchestrate stuff, but hopefully we orchestrate 944 00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.079 the stuff that's kind of boring or the stuff that tedious, 945 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.159 or stuff that doesn't add unique where we you know 946 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:47.079 that that we want to add unique value that only 947 00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.000 we can do, right, stuff that's like you know, makes 948 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:52.119 us feel great and love our work, and where we 949 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:55.320 have unique insights and we can be creative and come 950 00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:57.880 up with these fantastic things and then have kind of 951 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.800 maybe the boring parts and stuff that would be great 952 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:02.920 if someone else would take care of that, but we 953 00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.800 do the conducting of that. 954 00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:06.880 That was back to the old adage, right, Like your 955 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:10.840 job as the software engineer wasn't to write code, it 956 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:14.039 was to produce solutions. Yep, right, I remember. I mean 957 00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:16.239 I'm old enough down to remember switching to Visual Basic. 958 00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.960 His guy brought real tired of battling MFC, like you 959 00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:24.159 were mostly fighting with Windows, not providing solutions, and VB 960 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.519 took that off the shelf, and people like we're not 961 00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.639 really programming anymore. It's like pretty sure, I am pretty sure. 962 00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:31.079 I'm going to be crying all the way to the 963 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:31.719 bank here. 964 00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.199 Yeah, I forget who said it? But it was was 965 00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:37.800 it Repert Scoble or like Joe's bowlski or something that. Hey, 966 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.920 you know, as a software engineer, your goal is to 967 00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:43.960 solve problems. Yeah, the side effect is that you write 968 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.920 code or something like that. The by product is code. 969 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:49.480 But we're here to solve problems. And so I think 970 00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:51.199 that's true in this new world as well. And I 971 00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.159 think we're still going to write as much code. We 972 00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:55.519 might even write more because some of this other stuff 973 00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:58.960 can be sort of automated away a little bit. And 974 00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:01.960 so I think we're looking at a very very bright 975 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.480 future for software engineering. I think it's going to be 976 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:06.559 more fun now than they has been in the past. 977 00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:09.679 The productivity explosion is astonishing. Folks have seen who figure 978 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.679 this stuff out. I mean, I for a while there, 979 00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:15.519 the good Hub Copilot days, I was seeing folks saying, hey, 980 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.119 my coders are pushing in more code. It's twenty thirty 981 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:23.400 forty percent more productive. There's more reworks, like they're backing 982 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.519 out stuff more often. But generally if it gets pushed 983 00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:28.760 and it sticks, it's pretty good in its days, Like 984 00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:31.960 code quality up overall. Yeah, Yeah, Now I watch guys 985 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.519 that are knocking out two three weeks worth of work 986 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.480 in a typical pattern in a day. Sure, Like it's 987 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:39.119 just astonishing when they get it right. 988 00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:42.320 Yeah, yeah, right, And so I think like, as, but 989 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.760 that's a craft too. How do you work with the 990 00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:47.239 prompting and with the yelms. 991 00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:50.880 Yeah, So also staying current on what the different lllms 992 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:53.159 are and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I think 993 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:56.800 that's a big challenge too, because you know that experiment 994 00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:59.360 that I did with the first chatchpt for an hour, 995 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.320 and then you know that the GitHub copilot and all 996 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:04.800 that stuff that took like a whole day just to 997 00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:07.559 figure out that claudees on at three point five was 998 00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.559 was the was the model that I wanted. And now 999 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:13.039 when I go back that, I'm going to try to 1000 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.079 use that for a similar problem. But something else might 1001 00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:18.800 have come around that makes it even easier. Right, So 1002 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.440 keeping up with these things is going to be a 1003 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.000 full time endeavor. 1004 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:26.880 I remember the arguments over is garbage collecting actually a 1005 00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.119 good idea? We've been to these sort of changes in 1006 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.719 the way we think about code things before. Yeah, and 1007 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:35.119 it's just this is an issue one. 1008 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:36.760 And I also feel like, yeah, you have to keep 1009 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.599 up today with like which models are great for your scenario. 1010 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:42.840 Let's say, I don't think that's different than keeping up 1011 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:44.400 with other industry kind of. 1012 00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:48.599 Yeah, it just most faster, most faster than language evolution 1013 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:50.239 or tool evolution. 1014 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:52.880 That may only be true right now. 1015 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.119 Yeah, it's a moment in time. I think it feels 1016 00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:58.719 like we're on our way somewhere. Yeah, and we're trying 1017 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:00.760 to figure out where where does this go? Is this 1018 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.320 is the chat the right interface going forward? Is it 1019 00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:06.320 a what is it? It might be, but it might 1020 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.039 not be. And so we're on our way there wherever 1021 00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:09.440 there is. 1022 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:12.199 I have a suggestion to people who are hearing this podcast, 1023 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:14.880 and that is listen to more dot ne Rocks episodes 1024 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:16.800 because we'll keep you up to date on these things. 1025 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:18.679 Because we're doing the hard work out here. 1026 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:25.480 We're definitely asking some questions anyway and trying to get 1027 00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.199 an overview. Yeah, that's true of you know, who's succeeding, 1028 00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:31.239 who's struggling? Where are these things helping? Word? Don't they help? 1029 00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:33.800 But we're thinking about this. You know, you might have 1030 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:37.519 heard this concept of ambient AI. Yeah, so the concept 1031 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:40.519 real briefly is that it's kind of sitting there in 1032 00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:44.280 the background only showing its phase when it's needed, and 1033 00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:49.079 it seamlessly offer you, you know, the help contextually where 1034 00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:51.199 you want it. And so it's so think of it 1035 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:54.280 as something that's always there, but it's not in your way, 1036 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:56.760 and it's not something that you need to learn. And 1037 00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.000 so we like that idea because it kind of fits 1038 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:03.039 naturally into things that already exist. So if we were 1039 00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:05.239 to put it into Visual Studio, for instance, you know 1040 00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:08.320 I mentioned the you know, the generated commit message, Well, 1041 00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:10.840 we already have a commit message box. So adding a 1042 00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:14.320 button that automatically does that would be it's a place 1043 00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:16.800 where you expected, it's not in your way, you don't 1044 00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:19.559 have to prompt anything, right. That's a that's kind of 1045 00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:23.119 ambient AI thinking. Another one is renamed variable. We made 1046 00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:24.880 a big splash about this because you know it's the 1047 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.119 one of the hardest problems in computer science is naming things. 1048 00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:31.119 And so if you want to rename a variable, there's 1049 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:32.880 like a little UI and Visual studio for that. If 1050 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:36.599 you could click control r R on an identifier, the 1051 00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.280 rename thing come up. We show you automatically the top 1052 00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:41.880 three things that we think based on how that variable 1053 00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.320 is being used in your code. What will be good 1054 00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.679 names for that based on cipical naming strategies, and so 1055 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:48.639 that's ambient AI. 1056 00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:51.559 Although we are talking about Microsoft here and you guys 1057 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:56.960 have a record about names. 1058 00:50:57.360 --> 00:50:58.880 All right, well let's just put. 1059 00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:00.239 That right out there. 1060 00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.880 No size, that's the perfect name for what it does. 1061 00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:04.440 You know exactly what it does. 1062 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:07.639 I'm the worst of naming things. They just the name 1063 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:08.320 is what they do. 1064 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:11.480 Yeah, yeah, which is actually the perfect name. Like, because 1065 00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:12.840 nobody's confused in. 1066 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:15.960 The in the UK, they say, it's what's on the tin, right, 1067 00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.079 what's printed on the can is what you get. Yeah, 1068 00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:20.000 what's on the tin. 1069 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.800 It's what is in the can. Like, that's as much 1070 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:25.400 as we could hope for. I appreciate that. 1071 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:27.079 Uh. 1072 00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:28.840 Can we talk a little bit about the sort of 1073 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.239 project side that is also visual studio because I think, 1074 00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:33.960 you know, people will tell me, you, well, why would 1075 00:51:33.960 --> 00:51:36.239 I use visual studio code of visual studio? And it's like, 1076 00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:39.760 to me, studio is as much a project management tool 1077 00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:41.800 as it is a development environment. 1078 00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:46.000 It is. Now, that's funny, that's exactly how I look 1079 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:48.320 at it too, and that relationship you have between projects 1080 00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:52.519 and solutions. But if you're new to visual studio, you know, 1081 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:56.199 a lot of people don't understand that concept, yeah, because 1082 00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:58.960 it's just new to them, foreign to them, and it 1083 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.119 really allows us to do some interesting things when it 1084 00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:05.519 comes to building and to building context, I mean compiling 1085 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:08.960 and building context for intellisents and so on when it's 1086 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:10.920 not based on a file system, but it's based on 1087 00:52:11.239 --> 00:52:15.039 an intentional project structure. So I guess you could replicate 1088 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:16.920 that in the filesystem too, but that's typically not what 1089 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:21.880 you see, and so that's you know, we've it's always 1090 00:52:21.920 --> 00:52:24.920 been a little bit problematic too, because loading from a 1091 00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.800 file system is fast, but loading from a project hierarchy 1092 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:31.679 that you have to read the entire hierarchy first before 1093 00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:34.480 you can figure out the dependencies between them and how 1094 00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:37.079 to then render them in the solution explore right in 1095 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.519 the tree view. And so there's always it's always been 1096 00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:43.239 more expensive from that perspective working with the projects and solutions. 1097 00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:47.400 So this time around we've we've finally i'd say, been 1098 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:50.840 able to go really really deep on some performance stuff 1099 00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:54.280 to make that, you know, faster than ever. So you'll 1100 00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:56.480 notice the first thing you'll notice in the new version 1101 00:52:56.599 --> 00:53:01.599 is how fast things show up, how fast project solutions 1102 00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:03.480 load all that, it's just it's visible immediately. 1103 00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.960 I was under the impression that the reason why visual 1104 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:13.199 studio proper is slower than say visual studio code is 1105 00:53:13.239 --> 00:53:18.000 because there's a lot of calm involved in stuff, and 1106 00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:21.360 so that naturally kind of slows down the whole process 1107 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.960 and kind of bloats the memory. But I don't know 1108 00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:25.760 if that's really true. What do you think about that? 1109 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:28.840 No, that that had that has some truth to it, 1110 00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:32.800 for sure. And but also like visual studios over twenty 1111 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.119 eight years old, and so there's there's some things that 1112 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:38.239 have just evolved over time, like some debt that has 1113 00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:40.679 been building up, right, and we've finally been able to 1114 00:53:40.719 --> 00:53:43.920 look at that, but some very key aspects of it. 1115 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:47.000 But one thing that was was a thing was blocking 1116 00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.599 the UI threat. So when you would click a button 1117 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.639 to do it something, sometimes whatever would happen when you 1118 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.800 click that button would do that on the UI threat. 1119 00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:59.159 And what that means is that visual studio freezese. Nothing 1120 00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:01.920 could update on the score, right, and so we would 1121 00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:03.920 and so we get what we call it's called a hang, 1122 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:07.440 but you might call it a freeze, and Zoo would 1123 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:09.440 be unresponsive for like a half a second. 1124 00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:12.159 Once the programmers know all about that though. I mean, 1125 00:54:12.199 --> 00:54:14.679 if you've done any kind of multi threaded or a programming, 1126 00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:15.440 you know what that is. 1127 00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:17.280 That's top programmers. 1128 00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:22.199 Richard had this comment about outlook sixty five threads and 1129 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:28.719 not one of them for me, that's my thread. 1130 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:31.239 But when you start but when you start doing that, 1131 00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:33.159 and that's part of that profile the thing too, right 1132 00:54:33.320 --> 00:54:35.679 or or debugger where like something like an AI can 1133 00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:38.880 help you. Is it's really hard to d book like 1134 00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:44.119 acinc call stacks and you know, multi threaded applications or whatnot. 1135 00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.960 But this time around, we've really really done more than 1136 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:51.519 ever in terms of moving things out of the UI 1137 00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:55.679 threat and that we run dot net you know core 1138 00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:59.960 processes under visual Studio that you know runs very qui 1139 00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:02.159 and very fast, and it does a lot of that 1140 00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:04.559 work in the background now. So you'll see visual Studio 1141 00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:09.679 becoming a lot snappier. So opening startup, opening a solution, 1142 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.480 time you hit five, like compilation and time for you 1143 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:14.800 to hit When you hit a five too, you hit 1144 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:16.800 your break point. Is that was so much faster than 1145 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:19.360 ever was and it does all that while the UI 1146 00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:20.320 is still respond here. 1147 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:23.280 If you guys at Microsoft, the people that are working 1148 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:27.320 on Visual Studio in general are using AI to help 1149 00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:32.159 them find bottlenecks and find places that need to be 1150 00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:33.559 fixed or updated. 1151 00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.119 Yeah, we're using it internally. You have to you have 1152 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.119 to think about the So the Profiler Agent is really new, 1153 00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:41.800 So we haven't used it like extensively, like for a 1154 00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:46.000 long period of time. It's very new, and I tell 1155 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:47.159 you it was. Some of the first things we did 1156 00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:49.400 was we told all the teams, hey use it on 1157 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.840 your own code base inside Visual Studio, and so we 1158 00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:56.239 see optimizations come in all the time. But what Nick did, 1159 00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:58.760 he's on the profiler team, he did something really interesting. 1160 00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:01.639 He started with the top hundred Nugat packages and he 1161 00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:04.880 would profile them to figure out where are the hotspots 1162 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:06.480 or whatever and can he fixed them? So he sent 1163 00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:09.760 starts sending pull requests to the top Nugat packages because 1164 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:12.880 they're used in thousands and if not millions of apps, right, 1165 00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:16.280 and that means if he can like do seventeen percent 1166 00:56:16.360 --> 00:56:19.360 better performance for some of these packages, like that's a 1167 00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:21.280 huge win for everybody. 1168 00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:22.400 Yeah wow. 1169 00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:25.960 So he's been very busy doing that and that's really 1170 00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:28.599 great because that trains him in using the product and 1171 00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:31.199 figuring out where there could be further improvements and so on. 1172 00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:35.559 Plus all the internal dog footing stuff off that profiler 1173 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:39.639 ends up making everything better and we can fine tune 1174 00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:41.920 all these things and it's it's really impressive. 1175 00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:45.079 Well, I guarantee Polly isn't one of those newcat packages 1176 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:46.800 that needed improvement. 1177 00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:49.719 It's really should I tell nick to go look at that. 1178 00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:52.719 No, it's really fast, it's really good. 1179 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.239 Oh, it's fast enough, it doesn't need Yeah, it's. 1180 00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.639 Like all native the as your team got involved because 1181 00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:00.800 they were leaning on it. Pretty Yeah. 1182 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:04.559 I think actually Nicky found that when he ran some profiling, 1183 00:57:04.599 --> 00:57:07.400 he figured out all the way down in dot Net 1184 00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.800 framework itself that there was something that could be optimize. 1185 00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:13.679 So I think he's gonna send up a code update. 1186 00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:16.360 I'm not sure they take pull requests in the traditional sense, 1187 00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:19.079 but like he's gonna see if we can get some. 1188 00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:20.039 That's so cool. 1189 00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:22.639 That framework, because that has to do with visual studio startup. 1190 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:26.000 Visual Studio actually is a native process that boots up 1191 00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:29.599 the dot Net framework in its own. It's like it's 1192 00:57:29.639 --> 00:57:30.280 really kind of. 1193 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.559 And you're talking about you're talking about the Donet framework, 1194 00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:35.360 the Windows version of dot Net framework. 1195 00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:37.559 Yeah, framework for it Yep. 1196 00:57:37.480 --> 00:57:39.639 That's so cool that you guys are doing that, and 1197 00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:42.199 it's it's inspirational. 1198 00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:45.280 Really well, it's just a reminder that Microsoft employees use 1199 00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:48.840 Visual Studio like the products you build the products with 1200 00:57:48.880 --> 00:57:50.239 the products Uber Dog Souper. 1201 00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:53.000 That's my joke always like, hey, did you know that 1202 00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:56.719 Visual Studio twenty twenty six was build using Visual Studio six. 1203 00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:59.960 That's great, it's true. So where can folks take out 1204 00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:01.079 preview out firs spin. 1205 00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:03.599 Yeah, go to visual studio dot com, click the download 1206 00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:07.280 button and select the preview of twenty twenty six. That's 1207 00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:07.679 how you do it. 1208 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:10.000 But if you already have the Visual Studio installer, you 1209 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:13.519 can just load run that and it'll tell you if 1210 00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:15.000 there are preview versions, right. 1211 00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:18.480 You need to maybe if you have the preview already, 1212 00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:22.199 you've got the latest on the preview that includes the installer. Otherwise, 1213 00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:24.119 just go to visual studiot com click it there. If 1214 00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.760 it doesn't show up for you, and you can install 1215 00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:29.559 a side by side. It won't interfere with any other installs. 1216 00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:32.039 You got a Visual Studio twenty twenty two or whatever, 1217 00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:34.840 and it will it will look at twenty twenty two 1218 00:58:34.920 --> 00:58:36.840 if you have that installed. So when you're installed twenty 1219 00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:38.840 twenty six, it looks at twenty twenty two, and it 1220 00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:44.000 looks at your settings, your extensions, and the components the 1221 00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:47.000 workloads like if you're if you've taken like let's say 1222 00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:50.840 dot net, ASP, dot net and desktop, those are your 1223 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.800 two workloads. It will copy that information. It will take 1224 00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:57.880 that information from twenty twenty two and pre select all that. 1225 00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:00.239 So your installation is super smooth. You get all the 1226 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:03.920 components you need, settings and extensions because the extensions are 1227 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:07.199 you're twenty twenty two. Extensions work in twenty twenty three. 1228 00:59:07.239 --> 00:59:14.639 You go, let's hear for extensions. Yeah, going into the future. 1229 00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:17.400 Very exciting stuff and that. Yeah, so it's super fast 1230 00:59:17.440 --> 00:59:19.800 to get from you click the install butt until you're 1231 00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:22.679 able to open till you're able to open your solution 1232 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.440 and start writing code. Is probably the fastest ever. 1233 00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:29.079 Fantastic nice All right, Well, geez, I think I ran 1234 00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.559 out of questions. You got any more, Richard. 1235 00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:33.920 No good. I think it looks like it's gonna be 1236 00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:35.599 an awesome version of the studio, and it's been a 1237 00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.239 while coming, but I understand why. 1238 00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:40.599 Matt, thank you so much. It's been awesome as always. 1239 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:43.559 Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure as always. 1240 00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.400 All right, and we'll talk to you next time on 1241 00:59:45.519 --> 01:00:02.960 dot net brocks. 1242 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:09.880 Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net 1243 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.960 and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video 1244 01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:18.119 and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 1245 01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:23.159 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 1246 01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:25.480 Visit our website at d O T N E t 1247 01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:29.760 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 1248 01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:33.559 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going 1249 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:37.000 back to show number one, recorded in September. 1250 01:00:36.440 --> 01:00:37.239 Two thousand and two. 1251 01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:40.239 And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep 1252 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:43.480 us in business. Now go write some code, See you 1253 01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:43.960 next time. 1254 01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:46.679 You got Javans 1255 01:00:48.760 --> 01:01:00.559 And s