WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.359 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:44.679 Good Evening, Something Big tells the story of the infamous 8 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:49.520 Brown's Chicken massacre, a brutal case that captivated Chicago land 9 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:55.679 after remaining unsolved for nearly a decade. Customers know Brown's 10 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.560 Chicken for its crispy, buttermilk fried chicken and flaky biscuits. 11 00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:04.519 The Illinois based franchise as a reputation for delicious but 12 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:08.200 simple comfort food, but through no fault of its own, 13 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:13.200 the words Brown's Chicken are also synonymous with One Faithful 14 00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:18.760 Night in January of nineteen ninety three. A real hometown 15 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.480 is the trite but apt motto of Palatine, Illinois, a quaint, 16 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:29.000 middle class suburb west of Chicago. On a snowy Friday evening, 17 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:32.359 the staff and owners of the city's local Brown's Chicken 18 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:37.079 franchise were closing up when two final customers arrived just 19 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.599 past nine p m. As the night drew on and 20 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.319 the employees hadn't returned home. The family of the owners 21 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:50.799 and workers began to worry, prompting police to investigate. When 22 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.079 they entered the dark building, police were shocked to find 23 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:59.079 seven bodies stacked in the restaurant's freezer and fridge. The 24 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:03.879 killers of corps were long gone. In the months that followed, 25 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.240 the horrendous story rock Chicago Land, and the case remained 26 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:14.479 unsolved for nine years. The Brown's Chicken Massacre is one 27 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:18.639 of the most infamous cases in Illinois history, yet it 28 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:24.599 is often misremembered. In Something Big, Patrick Wall gives a 29 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:28.520 new account of the story, taking readers behind the scenes 30 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.080 and sharing the perspective of the people who lived it. 31 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.439 The book they were featuring this evening is Something Big, 32 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:41.080 The true story of the Browns Chicken Massacre, a decade 33 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:46.159 long manhunt, and the trials that followed, with my special 34 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:50.960 guest author, Patrick Wall. Welcome to the program, and thank 35 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.919 you very much for this interview. Patrick Wall, Dan, thanks 36 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:03.000 for having me. Congratulations on this book Thing Big, Well. 37 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.520 I appreciate it, and I I appreciate you reading and 38 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.680 the response so far from people, which has been very positive. 39 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:14.800 So I'm happy to see people or it's resonating with people, 40 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:16.639 so I'm excited to talk to you about it today. 41 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:21.800 Thank you. Let's talk about your preface in this book, 42 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:25.479 and you talk about that. In nineteen ninety five, the 43 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:31.159 Brown's Chicken massacre made national headlines and it was followed 44 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:35.719 by people in Chicago Land for years. You did as 45 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.159 you got older as well followed this case. And you 46 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:42.240 were raised not far from where it occurred, and you, 47 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.879 in fact had been at this restaurant or ate food 48 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.039 from this restaurant chain. The case always stuck with you, 49 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.479 but the story was distant, something you had read about 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.240 in the papers and followed on the news as a child. 51 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.759 Tell us nearly thirty years later, what the empethus were 52 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:02.680 where this book was. Why did you choose to write 53 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.719 this book? Tell us a little bit about the origins 54 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.639 of something big well. 55 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:11.879 As you mentioned, Dan, my connection to this story is 56 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.240 similar to that of a lot of Chicagoans in that 57 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.879 I have always known about it. It's always stuck with me, 58 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.759 and I followed it very closely over the years. I 59 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.600 was actually born the year after this took place. I 60 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.199 was born in ninety four. This took place in ninety three, 61 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:32.519 but it was around for so long, with various ups 62 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:37.319 and downs, with suspects, potential suspects being arrested and then 63 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.360 let go because they weren't the person, or eventually the 64 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.199 arrests in two thousand and two, the trials and seven 65 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.800 and nine, and then it's been in the news for 66 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.800 various reasons even after that, So it's always stuck with me. 67 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:54.920 And I grew up not too far from where this 68 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.560 took place in sort of a similar suburban setting in 69 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:03.519 the northwest side of Chicago, and I also ate at 70 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:05.680 the restaurants like a lot of people in Chicago. Brown's 71 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:09.279 Chicken used to be a huge chain in the nineties 72 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:12.879 and two thousands and many decades before that as well, 73 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:16.759 with many many locations, And that's part of the story 74 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.079 here too, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But I 75 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:24.079 was surprised in looking at this how little had been 76 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.319 written about this case. It's a very very well known 77 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:34.279 case in Chicago. There's lots of murders unfortunately that are 78 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.519 well known. In Chicago, you've got Gacy and Leopolden Lobe, 79 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.600 and you know in Milwaukee you've got Dall murders. These 80 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.199 kinds of names that are very prominent in true crime circles, 81 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.079 and I would say this is a case that people 82 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.360 talk about too, although for whatever reason, it's maybe just 83 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:55.160 not talked about as much nationally. When I started looking 84 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.040 at this book and looking at podcasts that had been 85 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:01.360 done on the case, and there had been a previous 86 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.639 book or two, actually, I was struck that there was 87 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:10.079 not much written about the people involved in this case, 88 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:14.439 whether it was the police who investigated it, the defense 89 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:17.920 attorneys and prosecutors who worked on these cases which took years, 90 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:23.480 or people in the community, and most importantly, the stories 91 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.759 of the victims and what others had to go through 92 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.879 after this tragedy had really been left out of the story. 93 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.040 They were just sort of footnotes in other retellings of this. 94 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:39.439 So I tried to really focus on the more human 95 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:45.079 element of this tragic tale by giving people a picture 96 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:49.560 of what the lives of these people before they were killed, 97 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:55.000 and tried to portray them as people rather than just victims, 98 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:59.920 as I think some true crime books or podcasts tend 99 00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:03.800 to do. So each chapter in the book is based 100 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.399 on a different individual, and roughly the first third is 101 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:11.160 focused on a couple of people, but mostly the victims. 102 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:17.040 You achieved this by saying that these people you convinced 103 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:21.319 them to share some incredibly intimate stories about you, about 104 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.600 this awful event that profoundly impacted their lives. So, like 105 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:30.240 I say, congratulations on being able to get that kind 106 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:33.240 of incredible access to write this complete story. 107 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:38.120 Well, it was certainly a challenge and I had. This 108 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.720 is my second book. My first book was about a 109 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:44.600 political campaign in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago, also in 110 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:47.879 the nineties, that got a lot of attention, and it 111 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:50.759 was a very different tale. It's obviously not life and death. 112 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:56.720 So I had to really learn how to gain people's trust, 113 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:00.759 and I certainly didn't. There were so many people I 114 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.879 could have spoken to for this book. I interviewed more 115 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.879 than forty people. Unfortunately, some of the family members. Some 116 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:12.800 of the victims had family members who were no longer around, 117 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.040 and so I had to rely on certain other things 118 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.959 for their stories. But for those who I spoke to, 119 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.680 what I really tried to convey to them was that 120 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.759 I was going to write this in a different way, 121 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.959 focusing on their stories, and of course I talk about 122 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:34.639 the crime because you can't tell this story without saying 123 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:39.120 what happened on January eighth, nineteen ninety three in Palatine, Illinois. 124 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:43.440 But the focus is less on the gore of the 125 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:48.519 crime and more on telling that narrative. And it has 126 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.399 certainly been an interesting process and interesting balance to strike 127 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.879 because on the one hand, you want people to read 128 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.559 the book and you want it to be, for lack 129 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:01.960 of a better word, entertaining. 130 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:05.159 But you also when you're meeting these. 131 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:07.679 People, when you're talking to them on the phone or 132 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:10.360 getting coffee with them or getting lunch with them, you 133 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.919 want to be honest with yourself and them and make 134 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.639 sure that you're not offending them in some way either. 135 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:21.639 So I hope I achieved that balance, because that was 136 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:25.399 certainly what I was trying to do with this story. 137 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:30.360 Yes, let's get to Belva and John Brown and the 138 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:37.120 origins of Brown's Chicken, and you take us to Chicago 139 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.639 or outside Chicago and Bridgeview. He comes to Chicago from 140 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.000 Indiana in nineteen thirty eight, John Brown and purchase a 141 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:49.279 small lot of farmland, and then his girlfriend at that 142 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:52.200 time seemed to be his wife, Belva. She had to 143 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.440 prove her usefulness on the farm by ringing a chicken's neck. 144 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.960 So just tell us briefly about the origins of this business, 145 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.919 Brown's Chicken, but also I ate pivotal an important character 146 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.399 in this story and to the business, Frank Portillo Junior. 147 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.279 How they met and teamed up together. 148 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.480 And the Portillo name is named that a lot of 149 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:18.960 people will recognize, even who are not from Chicago. But 150 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:23.120 the story of Brown's Chicken as a business is an 151 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:28.720 interesting book in itself, I think, And so nobody had 152 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:31.759 really written about the story of the business how it 153 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:34.840 came to be, and I wanted to include that because 154 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:38.360 or people who maybe don't know the chain or haven't 155 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.320 heard of it. It was really, I mean huge in Chicago. 156 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:46.600 Their advertising was all over the place. They had a 157 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.960 very well known slogan. He's better is the was the slogan, 158 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:55.360 and people knew it because they had TV ads on 159 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.919 constantly and radio. They had franchises all across Illinois and 160 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.679 the greater Midwest. But it's the business started from very 161 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.679 humble beginnings. The Browns, John and Velvet Round were farmers 162 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.799 just outside of Chicago, and they put together a trailer 163 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.080 that they took their chickens from the farm and plucked 164 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:18.679 them and fried them up and served that to people 165 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.159 in the area, and it became very popular, and they 166 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:26.720 decided to try to open up a restaurant in suburban Bridgeview, Illinois, 167 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.759 and so they took the trailer set up, moved into 168 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.440 a restaurant, and they had sort of a chance encounter 169 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:39.639 with a man named Frank Ortillo, who was then a 170 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:43.799 young man, a draftsman, who worked on one of the 171 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:47.320 early restaurants, helping make some renovations. And it was a 172 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:52.480 fortuitist moment because they eventually became business partners, and John 173 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:59.159 Brown and Frank Ortillo Junior basically took the restaurant from 174 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:03.279 just two locations to over one hundred and fifty and 175 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:07.159 grew it into a huge corporation at that time. And 176 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.399 there's some interesting elements here of different inflection points in 177 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:14.120 the business. And I think the story of Belva Brown 178 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.960 is interesting too. She was certainly one of the founders, 179 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.720 but it's not always spoken about that way. So I 180 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.159 talked to her son, who told me about what it 181 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.039 was like there in those early days building this quite 182 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:28.399 essentially Chicago business. 183 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:30.559 It coincides this the. 184 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:34.320 Story of the business with as you mentioned, a very 185 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:37.200 sad and tragic event. Just a couple of days before 186 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.080 the massacre at Browns Chicken and Palatine in nineteen ninety three, 187 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:47.200 John Brown himself committed suicide just before the massacre in Palatine, 188 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.639 and so it was just a very tough time for 189 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:53.360 the business he had, at least as his son explained 190 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.120 it to me, felt very distant from it and was, 191 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.759 I'm sure struggling with other issues. But it was a 192 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:05.840 horrible event, because you know, the death of anyone is tragic, 193 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.360 but the founder of the business was gone, and they 194 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.440 thought it was a horrible moment. But just a few 195 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.120 days later they would experience something that was even more 196 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.759 tragic than the death of seven individuals. In case people 197 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:23.039 have maybe recognized the name Portillo, it is because Frank 198 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:29.200 Portillo is brothers of the founder of Portillo's restaurant Portillo's 199 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:35.279 Hot Dogs in Chicago, and they started off with an investment. 200 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.799 Frank Portillo gave his brother Dick Portello, some money to 201 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.360 open up a dog excuse me, a hot dog stand. 202 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.159 It's called the Doghouse. 203 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.759 It was in Villa Park, Illinois, outside Chicago, and eventually 204 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:55.279 that business far exceeded expectations. And the success of Brown's Chicken. 205 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.879 Now it's a publicly serated company, there's some all across 206 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.840 the country, but it is the same family. So it 207 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.919 speaks to just how central of a business and a 208 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:10.039 name this was to Chicago in that time and still today. 209 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.080 You introduced a couple of people that decided to take 210 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:21.320 a chance research franchises, Dick ellen Feld and his wife Lynn, 211 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.799 and they he had always had Dick had always had 212 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:28.600 some interest in a restaurants, so they finally researched franchises 213 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.279 that were available, and one was in Palatin, and so 214 00:14:32.440 --> 00:14:36.159 Lenn and Dick ellen Felt had one of these franchises. 215 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.240 Tell us a little bit about this couple. 216 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:45.960 Well, Lenn and Dick Youngfeld were really an incredible couple. 217 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:50.200 They were very, very charitable. They had worked in all 218 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:54.879 different areas of the country, and Lynn was dedicated to 219 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.080 social services and raising the kids. Dick had been in 220 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.320 the seminary and then worked in politics for it time, 221 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.639 and he was out of work in nineteen ninety three. 222 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:09.519 In nineteen ninety two, when he was searching for something 223 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:12.559 else to do, he had moved the whole family to 224 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.679 Arlington Heights, Illinois from Madison Wisconsin, where they were from 225 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.639 for a previous job, and so they were looking for 226 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:23.279 something to do while their kids finished high school and 227 00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:25.120 to take them in a new direction. So they found 228 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.919 this franchise opportunity in Palatine and it was a good 229 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.879 move for them because they had thought about opening a 230 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:37.559 restaurant as something that had always interest interested Dicky Elenfeld, 231 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.679 and they decided a franchise would be great because it's 232 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.240 a more safe kind of avenue business. There's proof of concept, 233 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.360 and so they went at it. They bought the franchise 234 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:53.080 with basically all the money to their name and money 235 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:58.440 from friends and family, and they purchased it and made changes. 236 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.879 They implemented program and made renovations to the restaurant and 237 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.639 really poured their heart into it. They were really two 238 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:10.320 people who were very dedicated to their community. I'll give 239 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.440 you one example. There was a story that one of 240 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:17.679 his daughters told me that when they were closing up 241 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.080 one night, none came in and justsed in bowl habit 242 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.799 and she asked She presented them with thirty It was 243 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.159 thirty coupons of for free chicken meals and they had 244 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.639 been given out by the previous owners and they were 245 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:37.000 very apologetic, but Dick said, you know, I can't. We 246 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.759 can't give away thirty free meals. This was from the 247 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:44.320 previous owner. But maybe maybe we can work something out 248 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.679 where we can give you all our leftover chicken at 249 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:47.279 the end of the night. 250 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:49.080 And so they did, and each. 251 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.240 Night they would take the chicken from the restaurant and 252 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:56.279 bring it to the convent, which they would use to 253 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:57.720 feed others. 254 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.600 So they were just just a small example of and 255 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.440 how charitable and kind they were. 256 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.319 But they purchased a restaurant in nineteen ninety two and 257 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:10.759 by June had had it I think for only about 258 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.640 nine months, so that not even not even a year 259 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:14.839 at that point. 260 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.440 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 261 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:25.000 these messages. Now they were running this restaurant and they 262 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.279 were very benevolent and helpful. Couple. Tell us about Rico 263 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.279 Solis and Michael Castro. 264 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:34.559 Yes. 265 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:39.119 So one of the most unfortunate aspects of this crime 266 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.400 is that there were seven victims, and two of them 267 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.640 were young high schoolers. Rico Solis was a seventeen year old. 268 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.839 He was a recent immigrant from the Philippines. He had 269 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:56.920 moved from the Philippines after his father was murdered actually 270 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:01.519 in Manila, and his mother had moved out to the 271 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:02.519 United States before that. 272 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.240 They had been. 273 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.440 Separated, so he was with his grandfather and his two 274 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.119 sisters in the Philippines when his mother said, why don't 275 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.799 you come join us in Chicago. 276 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.960 So the three kids immigrated. 277 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:21.319 He was the older brother of two sisters, and they 278 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:27.200 adjusted to life in America, which I'm sure was difficult 279 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.720 as someone moving into a new school in kind of 280 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:33.680 the middle of the year, learning a new language. But 281 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.640 he was fortunate in that Chicago has a very vibrant 282 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.720 Filipino community, both in the city and in the suburbs. 283 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:48.880 And when Rico was at Palatine High School, where he 284 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.319 was a sophomore, he met a young man named Michael Castro. 285 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:58.240 And Michael Castro was his parents had immigrated from the Philippines. 286 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:03.319 He spoke language, she was. Their family was very involved in, 287 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:06.720 you know, other cultural events, and they got to know 288 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:11.079 each other. They were in classes together, and Michael worked 289 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.640 at a restaurant that was Brown's Chicken. He was saving 290 00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:18.039 up for a car he loved, was trying to soup 291 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.200 up his car rather with new speakers, and was enjoying 292 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.000 the work and having the freedom that comes with, you know, 293 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.519 a young being a young person and finally getting a paycheck. 294 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:31.400 And so he suggested to his friend Rico that he 295 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.599 did a job at Brown's Chicken, and so he. 296 00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.319 Set him up with the opportunity. 297 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:40.079 We goo met with the owners and with Lynn, who 298 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:45.720 typically handled those those those interviews and the process and 299 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.319 work with employees. He got to work as eventually a 300 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.519 cashier at the restaurant, but started off doing other things, 301 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.440 baking biscuits, washing dishes, the typical things you'd expect in 302 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.599 a restaurant. And so the Tube became very close friends. 303 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:05.400 They had a lot in common, and Michael certainly helped 304 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:10.720 we go just to the United States, certainly he by 305 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:14.720 the time nineteen ninety three rolled around, had only been 306 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.720 in the United States a couple months really, so it 307 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:23.599 was of course a tragic and short lived time in America. 308 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:28.880 You introduce a character named Christian Lenstrom, happens to be 309 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:33.160 the boyfriend of Jim Degorski. They both went to Fremd 310 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.359 High School. You just introduce Jim de Gorski. He's a 311 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.920 six foot guy, chubby, lives in Hoffman estates tell Us 312 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.559 a little bit about Jim Degorski and this little story 313 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:51.640 that involves Christian Lenstrom and just the demonstration of maybe 314 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:52.559 future behavior. 315 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:57.880 Well, one of the things that's unique about this book 316 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.799 is that sometimes the suspense of a true book is 317 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:03.920 figuring out who the killer is. 318 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.880 And this is a story. 319 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.119 That I knew a lot of people in Chicago would read, 320 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:13.359 and it's resolved. People know the names if they followed us, 321 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.480 and so I had to write this a little differently, 322 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.000 and so Jim de Gorski and Wan Luna, the killers 323 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:23.720 are introduced early, and then the third chapter there was 324 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:27.000 a story about Kristen, as you mentioned, who was a 325 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.880 girlfriend of James tu Gorski and who he was incredibly 326 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.519 abusive towards. He would punch her and hit her, and 327 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:39.079 there was an incident where he basically abducted her and 328 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.720 took her to another town and threatened her. 329 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.039 So he displayed this very violent behavior. Jim came from 330 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.839 a very rough house. He had a tough upgriming. 331 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.960 I would certainly say his father had mental illness and 332 00:21:55.119 --> 00:22:01.079 other issues, and that's built out into obviously dysfunction with 333 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.960 the family. So he certainly had a tragic upbringing and 334 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.640 That's one of the things I talk about in the 335 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:10.440 chapters that weave in his story. 336 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.359 One of the things that was really fascinating to me 337 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.720 in writing this book is. 338 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:20.680 When I spoke to the particularly the daughters of the founders. 339 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:24.079 One of the things they said to the franchise owners, 340 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:24.680 the unfls. 341 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:29.000 One of the things they expressed to me was they. 342 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.039 Asked her, are you going to write the story of 343 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:38.279 Jim and One? And I was sort of hesitating, saying, yeah, well, 344 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.160 I'm gonna talk about them, so you obviously have to 345 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.960 to tell his story. 346 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:43.880 And I thought they were. 347 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.480 Suggesting they didn't, you know, maybe they didn't want me 348 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:50.400 to or something like that, And what they were actually 349 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.559 getting at was they wanted me to tell it. They 350 00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.599 wanted me to explain who the men were in a 351 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.599 fair way, honest but fair. It really came from view 352 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:05.559 that One and James were trouble kids, and they were 353 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.839 exactly the kind of youth who their parents would have 354 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.799 helped out through their work in the community, through Lynn's. 355 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:13.960 Social service work. 356 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.200 And so that I found to be just very incredible 357 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.160 because it was not necessarily the way that I would 358 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:23.440 have reacted if someone had had murdered my parents, and 359 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.079 so I was just very astonished by their grace in 360 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.720 that manner, and that's something a lot of the families 361 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.160 displayed even at the trials, which I am sure will 362 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.039 get to a sort of preview of it. When the 363 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.000 decision the question of the death penalty came up, there 364 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.640 were a number of families who opposed it and even 365 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:49.400 attended rallies with the families of Juan Luna's family to 366 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.759 jointly oppose posing a death sentence, which again was something 367 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:58.160 that I found very astonishing, just because I don't know 368 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:00.400 how my reaction would be in that instant, but I 369 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:02.279 found there's to be just incredible. 370 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.480 You're right that one Luna originally from Mexico, and Jim 371 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:12.039 Degorski met at the frem High School and they became 372 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.720 close buddies. Tell us a little bit about one Luna 373 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:16.680 and his background. 374 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:23.799 Well, one, as you mentioned, immigrated from Mexico. He family 375 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:29.119 originally came into the moved to the city, then the suburbs. 376 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:31.000 And they were a pretty normal family. 377 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:36.640 He you know, would work the or or do the 378 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.720 signs of things that kids in the suburbs do, hanging 379 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:44.400 out with friends, working jobs, just getting drunk, hanging out 380 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.039 in basements doing no good, but for the most part, 381 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.680 was not necessarily someone who got in a lot of trouble. 382 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.920 He was someone who was one of the only non 383 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.960 white people in his school Palatine, was not necessarily at 384 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:03.079 least friend high school where they went, wasn't the most 385 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.640 diverse place, and he was a little shy, I would say, 386 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.799 more so than Jim. Definitely, of the two, Jim was 387 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.559 sort of the one who was more aggressive and more 388 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:19.400 in charge. They're obviously both responsible for the eventual killings, 389 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:21.240 but just gives you a sense of sort of his 390 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:28.680 demeanor in all of this as well. 391 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:32.519 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 392 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.279 you take us to January ninth and just the working 393 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:40.680 arrangement at Brown's Chicken, and you introduced some workers and 394 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:49.400 characters in this story. Marcus Nelson and also Guadaloupe and 395 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:55.559 also Tom Menez introduced these three characters and the arrangements 396 00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:59.359 for working that weekend at Brown's Chicken. 397 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.880 Sure, so there were three other individuals who were working 398 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:10.480 that night to have passed. Guadalamube Maldonado was a father 399 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.279 of three. He was forty seven and slave forties. Had 400 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:17.039 lived in the United States a couple times before that, 401 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.640