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<v Speaker 1>We're giving away five signed copies of Stephen Proctor's book Matchless.

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<v Speaker 1>To enter, you just have to sign up to our

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<v Speaker 1>email list for free. You can do that in the

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<v Speaker 1>link in the show notes or at substack dot com

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<v Speaker 1>slash at Corrected Mistakes. That's what we'll be posting bonus

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<v Speaker 1>content and doing giveaways like these.

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<v Speaker 2>There are six immortals in the game of golf.

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<v Speaker 3>All the analytics tell you is the further you hit.

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<v Speaker 2>It right, the better you are. And you know that's

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<v Speaker 2>become the modern golf swing, a kind of bludgeoning.

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<v Speaker 3>If you play golf, you know the deal. You take lessons,

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<v Speaker 3>you take a tip from YouTube, you practice, you integrate,

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<v Speaker 3>and then it works until it doesn't and you're back

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<v Speaker 3>at square one. Simply put, you've joined the quest for

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<v Speaker 3>the perfect swing. So if you're obsessed with breaking eighty

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<v Speaker 3>or ninety, lasting it to eighty, or hitting it down

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<v Speaker 3>the middle, you've come to the right place. This is

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<v Speaker 3>golf smartest, correct and mistakes, and now here's your home.

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<v Speaker 3>Josh Cart Today, I'm lucky enough to have Stephen Practor,

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<v Speaker 3>who is a golf history in here with us to

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<v Speaker 3>talk about the history of the golf swing. Stephen, thank

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<v Speaker 3>you for taking the time to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm delighted to be on. I really appreciate the opportunity.

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<v Speaker 2>It's always fun to talk about the history of golf

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<v Speaker 2>for me.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, you've written several great books about it. So

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<v Speaker 3>where do we start, Andrews.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, No, that's the beginning, and I would say that

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<v Speaker 2>you have to think about the swing as something that

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<v Speaker 2>evolves with the course conditions that you played in, with

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<v Speaker 2>the technology that was available to you, in particular the

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<v Speaker 2>evolution of the ball. So the first ball, the feather ball,

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<v Speaker 2>you couldn't strike it in the way that you strike

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<v Speaker 2>a modern ball, or it would just explode and you

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<v Speaker 2>look like you lost a pillow fight, and feathers would

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<v Speaker 2>be flying everywhere. It needed to be swept off the ground.

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<v Speaker 2>But you couldn't have that downward strike that you have

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<v Speaker 2>in the modern age. It was a very sweepy swing

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<v Speaker 2>and in order to get distance on it, you need

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<v Speaker 2>to have quite a long turn of the club around

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<v Speaker 2>your body. So it was a very arms and wrist

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<v Speaker 2>focused motion. If you look at John Daily or Brooke Henderson,

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<v Speaker 2>who take the club all the way around in that way,

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<v Speaker 2>that was the way the golf club was swung at

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, so you could get as much force on

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<v Speaker 2>that sweepy swing. He played exclusively with long nosed wooden clubs.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think if you're thinking about the modern golf swing,

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<v Speaker 2>you need to start with what I would think of

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<v Speaker 2>as the first modern ball, and that's the gutty ball,

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<v Speaker 2>the hard rubber ball that you could you could strike

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<v Speaker 2>that ball, you could hit it. You know. You almost

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<v Speaker 2>never used an iron with featheries because they might burst

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<v Speaker 2>if you were close to the green and you could

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<v Speaker 2>ship it. Certain players they know, they well, they did go.

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<v Speaker 2>They did get airborne, but not like the height of

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<v Speaker 2>a ball, be like a little below quail high. They'd be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, flying quite low under the wind, and all

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<v Speaker 2>from the game would be played mainly on the ground.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Saint Andrews swing is not very closely related

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<v Speaker 2>to the swing as it exists today. Modern swing really

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<v Speaker 2>begins with the introduction of the gutty ball in eighteen fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing about the gutty ball is you could

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<v Speaker 2>hit it with irons, and so irons start right away

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<v Speaker 2>to become the predominant club, and as a result, the

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<v Speaker 2>swing begins to evolve. The big moment is the arrival

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<v Speaker 2>of young Tom Morris, the first player that decided that

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<v Speaker 2>a way to hit a golf ball was to absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>lash at it, hit it as hard as you could,

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<v Speaker 2>as far as you could, with every single swing. And

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<v Speaker 2>the result of that was that he shortened the swing

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<v Speaker 2>to generate more power and more force. And that's where

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<v Speaker 2>the modern swing starts to evolve, and you know, fearlessness

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<v Speaker 2>being a big part of it. You know, hazards were

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<v Speaker 2>really really hazards in those days. There was no such

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<v Speaker 2>thing as a bunker rake. If you got in a bunker,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a disaster, So people were cautious. Whereas he

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<v Speaker 2>would throw, he didn't have any game for caution at all.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's where the thing begins to change, and it

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<v Speaker 2>wins to epically change with the introdution of the askeoball

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<v Speaker 2>at the turn of the century around nineteen oh two

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<v Speaker 2>or so, were.

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<v Speaker 3>Young Tom Morrison and Varden contemporaries of each others? Or

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<v Speaker 3>what where did they? Because I know Varden had a

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<v Speaker 3>big inact on how the club was swung. Yes after Morris, Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not contemporaries. Tommy precedes him by fifty years or thereabouts.

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<v Speaker 2>Tommy dies in eighteen seventy five and Garden wins his

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<v Speaker 2>first championship in eighteen ninety six, So a generation separates them.

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you want to look for the antecedents

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<v Speaker 2>of the modern swing, you have to start with Carnousti,

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<v Speaker 2>because around the turn of the century, Carnousti sends hundreds

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<v Speaker 2>and hundreds of men to the United States to be

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<v Speaker 2>golf professionals, two hundred and fifty through the US alone,

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<v Speaker 2>four hundred to become golf oppressionals at various other places

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. And the Carnousti swing was a swing,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was much more upper body turn focused, the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of swing that you see a modern golfer making

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<v Speaker 2>begins there and certain key teachers come to the United States,

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<v Speaker 2>namely Stuart Maiden and Alex Smith. Stuart Maiden was the

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<v Speaker 2>model for Bobby Jones's swing, and he also was the

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<v Speaker 2>teacher of Alexa Stirling, who was one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>breakthrough women golfers in the world, one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>women to really lash at the ball in the way

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<v Speaker 2>that a man did, cecil Leach being her contemporary in Britain.

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<v Speaker 2>So those two men, Stuart Maiden, Alex Smith, and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of other Carnoustie teachers begin to take this idea

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<v Speaker 2>of this Carnoustie swing that's more upper body turn focus,

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<v Speaker 2>meant to deliver more power and strength to the strike

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<v Speaker 2>of the ball. I think Stuart Maiden's basic instruction was

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<v Speaker 2>hold your hands this way, stand up to the ball

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<v Speaker 2>this way, and now hit the hell out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that was one of the things they want,

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<v Speaker 2>a strong and powerful swing. And then you mentioned Varden.

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<v Speaker 2>So along about eighteen ninety Varden comes along and he

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<v Speaker 2>and all the players from Jersey have a considerably more

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<v Speaker 2>upright swing. And Varden was one of the first people

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<v Speaker 2>to make a very very upright swing, and his swing

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<v Speaker 2>was considered to be picture perfect in that age. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's another really big step along the road, is

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<v Speaker 2>the arrival of Varden. Part of the reason that it

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<v Speaker 2>is such a big step is that in nineteen hundred

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<v Speaker 2>spends most of a year playing golf all over the

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<v Speaker 2>United States. I forget the exact number of exhibitioncy but

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<v Speaker 2>he's put on, but I think it was around one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred exhibitions for you know, golf courses all over the

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<v Speaker 2>United States. And that is the thing that really gets

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<v Speaker 2>golf going in America. The first permanent club in America

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<v Speaker 2>was founded in eighteen eighty eight, so Varden arriving becomes

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<v Speaker 2>the basic model for Americans learning the game. Also right,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think the other thing that is important. Americans

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<v Speaker 2>took the game in a way different way than Scots

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<v Speaker 2>or Englishmen ever had, or any British person. British people

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<v Speaker 2>did not practice. Of most classic golf facilities have no

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<v Speaker 2>practice area or have had to create a practice area

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<v Speaker 2>somewhere within reasonable driving distance of the club because the

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<v Speaker 2>original clubs people just didn't practice. In Britain. What they

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<v Speaker 2>meant by practice was if they were having trouble with

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<v Speaker 2>their mashie, they would take it out to a quiet

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<v Speaker 2>corner of the course in the evening it hit about

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<v Speaker 2>eight shots with to try to figure out what was

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<v Speaker 2>going on. That was practice, as far as British were concerned,

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<v Speaker 2>Americans practiced. They practiced assiduously, They built facilities for the

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<v Speaker 2>purpose of practicing, and in that way Americans really begame

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<v Speaker 2>the first significant analyzers of the swing. You know, mostly

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<v Speaker 2>it was taught in a natural way in Scotland. Even

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<v Speaker 2>the Carnisty players and stuff but Americans started to die

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<v Speaker 2>it much more technically and that became quite popular across

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<v Speaker 2>the pond in about nineteen twenty or nineteen thirty as well.

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<v Speaker 3>Was that a cultural difference that you know, Americans started

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<v Speaker 3>practicing like crazy too.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think it is a cultural difference. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Americans have a culture that's very individual, excellence focused. I

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<v Speaker 2>will succeed on my own, whereas Britain. Golf, in particularly

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<v Speaker 2>in Britain, is much more a team focused thing. Most

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<v Speaker 2>people played foursomes as opposed to score play golf. The

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<v Speaker 2>members of the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society began to

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<v Speaker 2>get really interested in American ideas. And there's a book

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<v Speaker 2>that's written by Joyce Weathered and Roger, her brother, called

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<v Speaker 2>Golf from Both Sides, and part of it was a

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<v Speaker 2>chapter about Roger having gone to America to see what

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<v Speaker 2>Americans were doing with the golf swing and to try

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<v Speaker 2>to understand why Americans are starting to beat the British

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<v Speaker 2>all the time and for me and they'd never been

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<v Speaker 2>able to do that, but now they've elevated the swing

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<v Speaker 2>and the practice and the mentality about golf to a

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<v Speaker 2>point where they're starting to win and Roger devotes a

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<v Speaker 2>whole chapter to why Americans' ideas are working better than

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<v Speaker 2>our ideas and it's just fascinating to see. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>once again, technology is deeply involved, because starting about eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty you could take photos that would stop in sequence,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the breakthrough time really is in nineteen thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>when Bobby Jones is excelling, Joyce Weather it is excelling.

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<v Speaker 2>You can actually get a movie now that shows your

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<v Speaker 2>swing and can stop at every certain number of seconds

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<v Speaker 2>to show you precisely where your club is going at

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<v Speaker 2>every moment. We haven't really gotten off that track from

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<v Speaker 2>that moment to this, We've merely continued to perfect it

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<v Speaker 2>to the point now where an average golfer like me

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<v Speaker 2>can if they were that sort of person, which I'm not.

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<v Speaker 2>I need to point out that my you know, knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>of the swing is very strictly academic, as anyone has

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<v Speaker 2>ever seen me play nos. But you can have TrackMan

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<v Speaker 2>on your range, you can see where your clubs go,

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<v Speaker 2>you can see anything you want.

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<v Speaker 3>I've had the horrifying experience of seeing my swing on

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<v Speaker 3>a video camera directly next to Ernie l swing. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's nothing I ever want to see again. I

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<v Speaker 3>did take a lesson where they had an indoor facility

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<v Speaker 3>with the track man, and it was un believable. You

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<v Speaker 3>do learn a lot just of basic stuff. I can't

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<v Speaker 3>imagine how for somebody who's doing it all the time,

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<v Speaker 3>who's not a pro. It's got to be just totally

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<v Speaker 3>overwhelming all of that information.

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<v Speaker 2>I would think, so for me, it wouldn't work for me.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the most formative books written about golf is

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<v Speaker 2>called Shape Your Swing. The Modern Away by Byron Nelson

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<v Speaker 2>to test golf balls and golf equipment is called the

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<v Speaker 2>Iron Byron because it replicates the first person who have

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<v Speaker 2>perfected and understood the completely modern swing. Nelson got very

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<v Speaker 2>close to the perfect swing. And of course Nelson had

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<v Speaker 2>huge influence over the game because he helped to teach Watson,

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<v Speaker 2>and he helped to teach Venturi, and he was a

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<v Speaker 2>mentor to many stars in the game in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>how their swings developed and how they moved the golf club.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Hogan, I think, becomes the you know what

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<v Speaker 2>I would call the final mountain of the modern swing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he gets to where it's you know, very

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<v Speaker 2>near absolute perfection.

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<v Speaker 3>Now with Nelson. The big factor, as you were saying,

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<v Speaker 3>was you know, you've got equipment, you've got you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the places they're playing, and a bunch of other factors.

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<v Speaker 3>And I know the steel shafts were really the big

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<v Speaker 3>change for Nelson, right, he had to learn how to

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<v Speaker 3>swing with a steel shaft as opposed to a hickory shaft.

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<v Speaker 3>Was that not the catalyst that made this news thing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's a huge evolutionary aspect of the modern swing

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<v Speaker 2>because obviously a steel shaft going to produce more power,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, have much more likely much more flex in

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<v Speaker 2>it than a hickory cheft, which does have a fair

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<v Speaker 2>amount of flex. But no, Nelson is the first generation

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<v Speaker 2>of people to use one of the first to use it,

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<v Speaker 2>because nineteen thirty, nineteen twenty nine, I believe, is when

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<v Speaker 2>they are made legal. You know, Bobby Jones stayed with

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<v Speaker 2>his hickory clubs, Joyce Weather had stayed with her hickory clubs.

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<v Speaker 2>Many people did, but you know, the new generation went

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<v Speaker 2>to the steel and Nelson was you know, that was

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<v Speaker 2>very influential on how the swing went on to develop

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<v Speaker 2>and the you know, more powerful dimensions of it that

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<v Speaker 2>have continued to evolve into the modern age, where quite

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more emphasis now is put on, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>hitting the ball hard.

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<v Speaker 3>They read a good article about about Nelson changing and

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<v Speaker 3>I think one of the things he said was that

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<v Speaker 3>with the Hickory clubs you had to rotate the head

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<v Speaker 3>open and then rotate it back again closed, and that

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<v Speaker 3>that was not he could be much more vertical right

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<v Speaker 3>with these or maybe vertical is not the right word,

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<v Speaker 3>but less of that action with his hands.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's much the modern swing just got much more

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<v Speaker 2>focused on rotating around an axis and not have movement

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<v Speaker 2>of your head or your body or whatever, you know

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<v Speaker 2>what I mean. Percy Boomer put out a book called

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<v Speaker 2>on Learning Golf, which is, you know, a very esoteric book,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it was published in the nineteen thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'd have to look it up to remember. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a lot of what is taught in the

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<v Speaker 2>modern game comes from the intellectual ideas that Boomer puts

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<v Speaker 2>forth in that book, and a lot of it has

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<v Speaker 2>to do with connection between mind and body. So the

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<v Speaker 2>mental aspects of the swing start to get introduced into it.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, that's another hugely influential book that people

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<v Speaker 2>like Tommy Armor and other people who wrote great instructional

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<v Speaker 2>books were heavily influenced by that. Ernest Jones and some

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<v Speaker 2>of the other great teachers.

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<v Speaker 3>As reading where you know, Nicholas said he never even

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<v Speaker 3>hit a shot of the practice range that he didn't

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<v Speaker 3>visualized before. Do you know at all? When that kind

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<v Speaker 3>of mind body visualization, the whole mental approach to the

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<v Speaker 3>game became a formal thing that people were, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>or not even formal, but just you know, who are

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<v Speaker 3>the first players that were really trying to take a

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<v Speaker 3>mental approach to the game rather than than just playing

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<v Speaker 3>the way you play.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say two things about that. One is there's

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<v Speaker 2>always been a thread of that in golf instruction from

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<v Speaker 2>the earliest days, because every book from the beginning would

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<v Speaker 2>have a chapter on the mental approach that you have

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<v Speaker 2>to take to a metal round, stroke play round as

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to the mental approach you take to a match

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<v Speaker 2>play round. So probably around nineteen fifty nineteen sixty, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Nicholas and those people you know are you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>this long evolution of how you get better and better

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<v Speaker 2>and better, and of course the mental dimension then enters

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<v Speaker 2>into that more and more I've just been reading Golfer's

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<v Speaker 2>Gold by Tony Lima right, which is published in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>sixty four about his entry onto the tour, and one

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<v Speaker 2>of his chapters is about how the turning point from

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<v Speaker 2>him as a golfer was learning to be in control

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<v Speaker 2>of his mind. That's when he realized everybody can swing,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody can putt. It's the guys who have control of

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<v Speaker 2>their mind and their emotions and are able to withstand

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<v Speaker 2>the psychological and emotional pressure of going low. Those are

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<v Speaker 2>the guys who win. I think it's really something that

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<v Speaker 2>really starts to emerge in the fifties and sixties, as

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<v Speaker 2>Americans continue to think more deeply about the swing the game.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, teachers are always building on the generation that

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<v Speaker 2>came before them. I don't know when golf is not

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<v Speaker 2>a game of perfect came out, but it's always been

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<v Speaker 2>under the surface. It's not like a totally new idea.

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<v Speaker 3>No, It's like somebody like Nicholas was doing that way back,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, way back when. Okay, so we were talking

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<v Speaker 3>about Nelson. He developed kind of the one piece takeaway, right, Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>was not also one of his innovations.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I think that's always been a part

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<v Speaker 2>of the modern swing, say from even before him, Jones

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<v Speaker 2>and those guys, they were going back you know pretty

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<v Speaker 2>you know one Piec I would say, you know, straight

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<v Speaker 2>left arms been a kind of a concept that's been

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<v Speaker 2>there for a long time. I just think, you know, Nelson,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, was basically focusing more on body rotation and

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<v Speaker 2>stillness in every other way. He says, you have to

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00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.320
<v Speaker 2>think of yourself swinging out from under your head, you know,

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00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:42.960
<v Speaker 2>so that you keeping your head in the same spot

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00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and your shoulders are coming under your chin and then

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00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.080
<v Speaker 2>your head is pulled up by them as you're swinging

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00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>out from under your head. A lot of us who

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00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.679
<v Speaker 2>struggle with the swinging too fast on the down swing.

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<v Speaker 2>That's because we swinging so fast that our arms are

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00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.679
<v Speaker 2>lifting our head up before our shoulder ever gets to

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00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:02.879
<v Speaker 2>our gin, you know what I mean. And we're just

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00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.319
<v Speaker 2>getting way out in front of it. And I like

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00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.519
<v Speaker 2>to focus on that concept of swinging out from under

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<v Speaker 2>your head. I just think that's one of his more

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<v Speaker 2>revolutionary ideas that he had.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's I mean, as I'm setting your listening, you said,

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00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, that's actually a great swing thought, right, I mean,

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00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.079
<v Speaker 3>and there aren't a lot of great swing thoughts because

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00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.519
<v Speaker 3>they're usually so technical, and that's a real feel kind

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00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:26.519
<v Speaker 3>of thing, you know, which I think, at least for

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<v Speaker 3>me a lot easier to process as a player.

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<v Speaker 2>One of my favorite things I recite to myself is

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<v Speaker 2>from the very first and what I would call pure

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<v Speaker 2>instructional book that was written in eighteen eighty six by

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<v Speaker 2>Horace Hutchinson, and it just is you should keep your

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00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.359
<v Speaker 2>eye fixedly on the ball from the moment your club

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00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.359
<v Speaker 2>is lifted until the moment the ball is actually struck.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's about as pure and clean as

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<v Speaker 2>it can be stated. And I particularly like the use

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<v Speaker 2>of the word fixedly. You should keep your eye fixedly

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00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.839
<v Speaker 2>on the ball. And in a lot of ways, that

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00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.200
<v Speaker 2>is telling you the very same thing that Nelson is

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<v Speaker 2>trying to tell you about the modern swing. He's expressing

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00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.279
<v Speaker 2>it as swing out from under your head, so, in

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<v Speaker 2>other words, don't let your head move, And Hutchington is

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00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.279
<v Speaker 2>expressing it as keep your eye fixedly on the ball

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00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.759
<v Speaker 2>until you actually strike it, keep your head still, keep

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00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:18.640
<v Speaker 2>your eye fixedly on the ball, go back slowly with

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00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:20.799
<v Speaker 2>your club, don't press right.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, that's it's interesting too, I mean about the you know,

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00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:28.160
<v Speaker 3>the pressing aspect of it. I would think if you're

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00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.440
<v Speaker 3>a five or maybe an eight handicapper below, that's great advice,

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00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.319
<v Speaker 3>go ahead and kill it.

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<v Speaker 2>But for the rest, no, I mean for me, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a I am a don't press guy. Still, I still

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<v Speaker 2>think of that as sound advice for about ninety percent

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<v Speaker 2>of amateur players, you know, but if you seek to

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00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.640
<v Speaker 2>be a pro golfer, that's a different matter. And you

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00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.480
<v Speaker 2>know that was the first thing Tommy tossed out, which

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00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.920
<v Speaker 2>don't press. No, I mean I'm gonna press on every swing,

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<v Speaker 2>not just some swings, all of them. And you know,

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00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.079
<v Speaker 2>he would do things that people would never think of,

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00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:04.559
<v Speaker 2>Like if you played a certain hole at Musselburgh, you

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00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.599
<v Speaker 2>know there was a road that ran alongside it on

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00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:10.359
<v Speaker 2>the left hand side of the hole. Most people thought

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00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>of it as the worst thing that could possibly happen

355
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.000
<v Speaker 2>to your ball would be that it would get in

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00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:16.400
<v Speaker 2>the road, because it could be in an unspeakable lie

357
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.559
<v Speaker 2>from which you would have real difficulty extricating it. Tommy's

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00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.359
<v Speaker 2>idea was hit the ball onto the road, because if

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00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.240
<v Speaker 2>it hits the road, it's going to run like it

360
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.079
<v Speaker 2>stole something, It'll just go forever and who cares what

361
00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.200
<v Speaker 2>lie it's in at the end of that. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't see that big of a stretch between that

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<v Speaker 2>concept and the concept of Bryce and De'shambo. Who is

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00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to knock this ball into outer space

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<v Speaker 2>and wherever it lands all play from.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the ideas exist for a very long time

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<v Speaker 2>and they get iterated on I guess is all I'm saying,

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00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, because that's what's Tommy's idea. I'm just going

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<v Speaker 2>to hit this ball as far as I can every time,

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<v Speaker 2>and we'll see what happens. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's funny too, you know, because you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>just only think of this because I interviewed somebody about

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<v Speaker 3>Arnold Palmer the other day. I mean that was really

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<v Speaker 3>Palmer's approach was just hit the hell out of it,

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00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.599
<v Speaker 3>find it, hit the hell out of it again. And

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<v Speaker 3>then contrasting that to Nicholas and there somebody was saying

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00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:15.039
<v Speaker 3>that he would always have something in reserve so that

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<v Speaker 3>when it was time to break somebody's back and he

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00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.720
<v Speaker 3>was in the right position, he would just go for it.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's interesting that idea of you know, just going

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<v Speaker 3>for it all the time, which I think, like you said,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's what Bryson does that these guys today

384
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.240
<v Speaker 3>and all the analytics tell you tell them right that

385
00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.720
<v Speaker 3>the big advantage is the further you hit it.

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<v Speaker 2>Better you are. Yeah, and I and you know that's

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00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.680
<v Speaker 2>become the modern golf swing. I think Gil Hans described

388
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.839
<v Speaker 2>it as a kind of bludgeoning, which I thought was

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00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:49.480
<v Speaker 2>really spot on.

390
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, to get to this bludgeoning, so we go kind

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<v Speaker 3>of Hogan Nelson era. Yes, the next development is what Nicholas.

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00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, definitely Nicholas, you know, elevated the game power and distance.

393
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:10.839
<v Speaker 2>He was one of you know, he was the longest

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00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:12.920
<v Speaker 2>player of his age by a million miles. The other

395
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.359
<v Speaker 2>thing is Nick Nicholas is one of the very first

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00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.640
<v Speaker 2>players a yardage book, long before yardage books were a

397
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.920
<v Speaker 2>common thing, and so Nicholas had a holistic approach to

398
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.759
<v Speaker 2>preparing for a tournament. Strength and power would be the

399
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.960
<v Speaker 2>biggest thing. And I think Nicholas was one of the

400
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.039
<v Speaker 2>first times that the longest player on tour was the

401
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.799
<v Speaker 2>most dominant player. There have always been long players, but

402
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:38.079
<v Speaker 2>they weren't always as dominant as Nicholas was able to become.

403
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:44.240
<v Speaker 3>Right, right, Was he the first great non really self

404
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.680
<v Speaker 3>taught player, you know, because I know he had Jack

405
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:54.000
<v Speaker 3>Krout and Hogan and Nelson and Snead all taught themselves really.

406
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.279
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yes, I'm trying to think of whether I can

407
00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.920
<v Speaker 2>think of a player who was very care carefully taught

408
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:08.559
<v Speaker 2>by someone other than themselves that became as well. I mean, obviously,

409
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:11.640
<v Speaker 2>in the women's game, Glenna Collette became one of the

410
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.480
<v Speaker 2>great golfers in history, and she was a complete creation

411
00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.640
<v Speaker 2>of Alex Smith. She took lessons with Alex Smith for

412
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.680
<v Speaker 2>multiple years and then she she's the most dominant American

413
00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:26.400
<v Speaker 2>woman player in history. And so I would say, you know,

414
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.279
<v Speaker 2>and that's nineteen twenties. So I'm sure that there are

415
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:34.079
<v Speaker 2>others that are carefully taught that are not coming to

416
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.599
<v Speaker 2>our minds before Nicholas, because you know, obviously Glenna. You know,

417
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:43.759
<v Speaker 2>basically Glenna was a prodigious driver even as a child.

418
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Just she just was had a great movement, natural movement

419
00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.799
<v Speaker 2>for the ball. I think she was like seventy pounds.

420
00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:50.559
<v Speaker 2>She hit her first drive one hundred and twenty five

421
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.599
<v Speaker 2>yards when she was like fifteen or something, and just

422
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.960
<v Speaker 2>brew everybody's minds, and this was the Hickory Club. So

423
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:58.079
<v Speaker 2>that's a long way with the Hickory when you're a

424
00:22:58.119 --> 00:23:02.880
<v Speaker 2>tirty little thing. And she then played in some local tournaments,

425
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.440
<v Speaker 2>went to go see Alexa Sterling play, inspired by Alexa,

426
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.839
<v Speaker 2>decides she's going to be a golfer. She plays in

427
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.359
<v Speaker 2>a tournament. A very famous golf writer named Dicky Martin

428
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.279
<v Speaker 2>watches her and he comes up to her afterwards and says,

429
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, sees it. She can hit the ball a mile,

430
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.319
<v Speaker 2>but she's got no game. You know, she doesn't know

431
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:21.119
<v Speaker 2>how to play golf at all. And he asked her,

432
00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:22.400
<v Speaker 2>what do you think of your game? So I can

433
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>hit it far, but I can't do anything else. And

434
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.599
<v Speaker 2>she goes, I got a guy that could teach you,

435
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.839
<v Speaker 2>And so she gets connected with Alex Smith. And I

436
00:23:28.839 --> 00:23:30.880
<v Speaker 2>think probably there are a lot of stories in the

437
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.319
<v Speaker 2>early history of American golf that would line up with

438
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.960
<v Speaker 2>that one, in both men's and women's golf. Certainly, Alexa

439
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Sterling completely taught by Stuart Maiden every bit of the way,

440
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.960
<v Speaker 2>and Glenna taught by Alex Sabith every bit of the way.

441
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.200
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I'm sure there are people in the

442
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:50.640
<v Speaker 2>men's game that suit that same thing. I just their

443
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.839
<v Speaker 2>names aren't springing immediately to mind, because most of my

444
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.799
<v Speaker 2>study has been in Britain, where nobody practiced or even studied.

445
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.920
<v Speaker 3>I read that Nelson would hit a couple, you know,

446
00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.359
<v Speaker 3>hit maybe twelve to warm up before he played, didn't

447
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.960
<v Speaker 3>practice after he finished, and that he really felt he

448
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:11.680
<v Speaker 3>had locked in that swing. I mean, is that accurate

449
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:12.240
<v Speaker 3>or that.

450
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Is completely accurate? And you know the thing is practice

451
00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 2>at the Hogan level was not something that was known

452
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:24.039
<v Speaker 2>in Hogan's age. Most people were in more nearer to

453
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.640
<v Speaker 2>the Byron Nelson camp where they they practiced. You know,

454
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.839
<v Speaker 2>they warmed up extensively before around, they practiced on the

455
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.960
<v Speaker 2>days when they weren't playing, but they didn't practice eight

456
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.680
<v Speaker 2>hours a day, ten hours a day, right, Hogan practice

457
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.039
<v Speaker 2>You know that mentality, which is I would say is

458
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.480
<v Speaker 2>pretty commonplace now is the level of practice that Hogan

459
00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:44.960
<v Speaker 2>puts it up?

460
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Now, what follows Nicholas? What's the next big development?

461
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.400
<v Speaker 2>And I would say after that, as Tiger, you know,

462
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Tiger comes along. Tiger is the next of the immortals.

463
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 2>The way I look at it, there are six immortals

464
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.880
<v Speaker 2>in the game of golf, The first one is young Tommy,

465
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.039
<v Speaker 2>the second one is Harry Varden. The third one is

466
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Bobby Jones, then Ben Hogan, then Jack Nicholas, and then

467
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Tiger Woods. And those, to my mind, are the six

468
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:12.759
<v Speaker 2>generations of the game that what you would think of

469
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.000
<v Speaker 2>as the modern game. Pro golfer needs to be an

470
00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:18.359
<v Speaker 2>athlete who is as fit as a football player or

471
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.400
<v Speaker 2>as fit as a baseball player or whatever.

472
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.759
<v Speaker 3>Right. I remember reading an article about Nicholas and probably

473
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:29.599
<v Speaker 3>like you know, seventy seven and Sports Illustrated, and you know,

474
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.720
<v Speaker 3>the thing was always, you know, instead of his fitness,

475
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.599
<v Speaker 3>it was, you know, how much he weighed, right, And

476
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.519
<v Speaker 3>I remember he was going at a celery soup diet

477
00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:42.519
<v Speaker 3>and that was the big development. You know, they're like

478
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.759
<v Speaker 3>Jack's going on the celery soup diet. He's lost fifteen

479
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:50.960
<v Speaker 3>pounds already. And then I met somebody had who had

480
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.240
<v Speaker 3>been within fifteen feet of Tiger and he said, you know,

481
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.200
<v Speaker 3>you know you saw him at Stanford and he's a

482
00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:02.240
<v Speaker 3>skinny kid. He said, he is built like an NFL safety.

483
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's a relatively new idea. There's a thread that's

484
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.759
<v Speaker 2>never been part of golf, you know, to be physically

485
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.720
<v Speaker 2>trained in that way for the game. It's you know,

486
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.319
<v Speaker 2>I don't know of any other person in history. Maybe

487
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Frank Stranahan was probably the first one, really the amateur player.

488
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.519
<v Speaker 2>Frank Stranahan was a muscle builder and worked out at

489
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:26.160
<v Speaker 2>that level. But it's been very rare occurrences, and nobody

490
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:28.519
<v Speaker 2>had the influence to make it widespread the way that

491
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Tiger did. So, you know, but Tiger changed the world

492
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:31.839
<v Speaker 2>in that way.

493
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:36.039
<v Speaker 3>For sure historically. I mean even when I was, you know,

494
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.400
<v Speaker 3>in high school in the early eighties, if you played baseball,

495
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 3>you were told not to left because it would make you,

496
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, construct your ability to move. And I know

497
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.039
<v Speaker 3>it's all Bay said the same thing. How much do

498
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:51.440
<v Speaker 3>you think that you know, because you and I and

499
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.960
<v Speaker 3>every other amateur out there don't have a nutritionist, we

500
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 3>don't have a stretching coach, we don't have a strength coach,

501
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:02.319
<v Speaker 3>and we don't have personal swing coach. How much of

502
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:08.160
<v Speaker 3>the modern swing when when you're watching Bryce on Rory

503
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.359
<v Speaker 3>and you see that swing and you know, and you think,

504
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.279
<v Speaker 3>oh wow, should I be swinging the club that way?

505
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 3>It seems to me that is a theory that is

506
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.240
<v Speaker 3>being taught by a lot of people that is absolutely

507
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:25.559
<v Speaker 3>unachievable for somebody who doesn't have all that kind of

508
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:26.359
<v Speaker 3>physical training.

509
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:29.799
<v Speaker 2>I would agree with that one hundred percent. That I

510
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:34.000
<v Speaker 2>would say makes complete sense. The gap between the modern

511
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.599
<v Speaker 2>professional golfer and even the very high level amateurs has

512
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.559
<v Speaker 2>never been wider in the history of golf than it

513
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.880
<v Speaker 2>is right now. You know, there are very very few,

514
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:47.480
<v Speaker 2>even high level amateur golfers that can generate the kind

515
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:51.039
<v Speaker 2>of swing speed and distance a Rory mcelroory or Bison

516
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.160
<v Speaker 2>to Shamba where somebody can generate. So I think there's

517
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>a growing gap in between those and the wider that

518
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:00.200
<v Speaker 2>gap becomes less applicable. What a pro is doing with

519
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.599
<v Speaker 2>their swing in the men's game is to what maybe you,

520
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.799
<v Speaker 2>the person on the weekend, should be thinking about for

521
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.359
<v Speaker 2>your own game. I would say that that seems it

522
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.160
<v Speaker 2>certainly seems true to me. If I'm watching golf of

523
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.440
<v Speaker 2>the idea of trying to learn anything, I would watch

524
00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.400
<v Speaker 2>the LPGA just because I think the shot choices that

525
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.920
<v Speaker 2>they face, the distances that they hit the ball are

526
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:27.480
<v Speaker 2>so much more in line with the distance that a

527
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.559
<v Speaker 2>person like me is hitting the ball. Well, I mean,

528
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 2>at least they're in the same universe, you know what

529
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean. And I don't know if other players feel

530
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:38.839
<v Speaker 2>that way or not, but I don't feel, you know,

531
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:42.359
<v Speaker 2>that most people could. I mean, there's you know, a

532
00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:45.160
<v Speaker 2>very high level amateur, you know, somebody who's excellent, like

533
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.200
<v Speaker 2>a four or three or two. You know, probably they,

534
00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:51.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, should aspire to do what those players do.

535
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:56.319
<v Speaker 2>But I would think any anybody who's not single digit

536
00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:01.160
<v Speaker 2>probably doesn't have much to apply on what a pro does.

537
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 3>What one of my kids caddied in the Western Amateur

538
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.480
<v Speaker 3>It was played at a local club, and he caddied

539
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.720
<v Speaker 3>for a kid who was like the Division III champion,

540
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.359
<v Speaker 3>and they had maybe ten caddies from the local club,

541
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 3>and then all the other caddies were just brought in

542
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:21.359
<v Speaker 3>and he said, the biggest problem for everybody was that

543
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.720
<v Speaker 3>they couldn't even follow the ball the way these guys

544
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.799
<v Speaker 3>were hitting it, and you had to, like the first

545
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:33.359
<v Speaker 3>round was all just adjusting how far they hit their drives.

546
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.839
<v Speaker 3>And these are kids, you know, who've been on that

547
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:37.799
<v Speaker 3>course a thousand times, and he's like, you know, they've

548
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:41.000
<v Speaker 3>never seen anyone hit a ball, even from these championship

549
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.680
<v Speaker 3>or tournament teas He's like they would hit the ball

550
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:45.160
<v Speaker 3>and you just go, I don't know where the hell

551
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.000
<v Speaker 3>that thing went. It went so far. They're just playing

552
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.440
<v Speaker 3>a completely different sport. I have one last question for you,

553
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.559
<v Speaker 3>and thank you for this. This has been a great interview,

554
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.279
<v Speaker 3>not in terms of influence or anything, but who is

555
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.880
<v Speaker 3>who has your favorite swing of anybody who's ever played

556
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:00.319
<v Speaker 3>the game.

557
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:05.720
<v Speaker 2>Joyce weathered by a long shot, and anybody who's interested

558
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:09.039
<v Speaker 2>can google Joyce Weather It's swinging. They will show her

559
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.839
<v Speaker 2>hitting various types of clubs, irons, and woods. I've just

560
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.480
<v Speaker 2>published my latest book is called Matchless Joyce Weathered, Glenniclette

561
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.720
<v Speaker 2>and the Rise of Women's Golf. And Joyce played in

562
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.000
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and sixty six matches in her lifetime that

563
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.759
<v Speaker 2>were prominent matches, so not a ton of golf, because

564
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>she retired early and often and just didn't have much

565
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 2>use for it once she felt she'd proved what was necessary.

566
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Of the one hundred and sixty six matches she competed

567
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.519
<v Speaker 2>and she won one hundred and fifty two of those.

568
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.759
<v Speaker 2>She have two others, so she had one hundred and

569
00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:48.079
<v Speaker 2>fifty four times she was either one or was or

570
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:52.200
<v Speaker 2>halved and twelve times that she lost career wise, so

571
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:57.000
<v Speaker 2>winning percentage wise, that's ninety one percent, which nobody can

572
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:01.319
<v Speaker 2>even get in that stratosphere. And she Jones twice from

573
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:04.079
<v Speaker 2>the men's tea, and both times she was within a

574
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.319
<v Speaker 2>couple strokes of him. Both times he said he was

575
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:11.240
<v Speaker 2>in awe because, as he put it, somebody asked him, after,

576
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.359
<v Speaker 2>have you ever played a better woman golfer? And his

577
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.319
<v Speaker 2>exact response was, I have never played any golfer, man

578
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>or woman, amateur or professional, who made me feel so

579
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:25.279
<v Speaker 2>completely outclassed. It was impossible to believe that miss Weatherward

580
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>would ever miss a shot, and she never did. And

581
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:31.000
<v Speaker 2>so I think of her swing as the most perfect,

582
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 2>as perfect as can be developed. I would say, the

583
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:37.160
<v Speaker 2>other swings I think of as very near perfection or

584
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:42.200
<v Speaker 2>at perfection would be Mickey Wright, Bobby Jones himself, and

585
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:45.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, and Hogan and Nelson. You know, those are

586
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.000
<v Speaker 2>some of the other ones I think of as as

587
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.160
<v Speaker 2>perfect as perfect can be. But you know, Joyce has

588
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.200
<v Speaker 2>got as good a swing as there is, and she

589
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.119
<v Speaker 2>was able to repeat it over and over and over

590
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.119
<v Speaker 2>under pressure. And she's playing with Hickory Cubs, and she's

591
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:04.000
<v Speaker 2>playing from the men's Tea almost exclusively all her life,

592
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:09.359
<v Speaker 2>a golfer of exceptional ability.

593
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.359
<v Speaker 3>Got it. I'm going to go look up that swing

594
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.519
<v Speaker 3>right after we get off. Now, when does your book

595
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:16.799
<v Speaker 3>come out? And repeat the title again so people know

596
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:17.240
<v Speaker 3>about it?

597
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Sure. The new one is called Matchless Joyce whether it

598
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:23.799
<v Speaker 2>Glenna Collette and the Rise of Women's Golf, and it's

599
00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.359
<v Speaker 2>already published. It can be purchased online from Amazon or

600
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.160
<v Speaker 2>Barnes and Noble online. And the other two books are

601
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 2>Monarcha of the Green, which is about young Tom Morris.

602
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.119
<v Speaker 2>It's called Pioneer of Modern Golf where the discussion that

603
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>we had today begins. And the second one is called

604
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.319
<v Speaker 2>The Long Golden Afternoon, which explains to you how golf

605
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:47.559
<v Speaker 2>left Scotland and moved around the world and evolved into

606
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.079
<v Speaker 2>the modern game you know today through the great players

607
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:54.359
<v Speaker 2>who made that occur, which is always how the game changes.

608
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.240
<v Speaker 2>Somebody comes along like Tiger, lists the game up on

609
00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.720
<v Speaker 2>his or her shoulders, moves it into a new age

610
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:00.400
<v Speaker 2>and all we go.

611
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.200
<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you for taking the time to do this, Steven,

612
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:05.160
<v Speaker 3>this is really terrific.

613
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.440
<v Speaker 2>I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for having me.

614
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:08.599
<v Speaker 3>My pleasure,