WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.000
<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

2
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:03.799
<v Speaker 1>no ads?

3
00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:04.799
<v Speaker 2>Easy?

4
00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

5
00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320
<v Speaker 1>get access to a private RSS feed where all the

6
00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.599
<v Speaker 1>shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get

7
00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.679
<v Speaker 1>you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug.

8
00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com.

9
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.759
<v Speaker 1>Hey guess what it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin,

10
00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.280
<v Speaker 1>an amateurd Kembell. We're here with Reverend Billy. He'll be

11
00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:41.280
<v Speaker 1>joining us shortly.

12
00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:44.759
<v Speaker 2>Show number three. Yeah.

13
00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Three's kind of been around since the beginning of dot net.

14
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a one digit, two digit, three digit, four digit

15
00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of guy.

16
00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, just real quick, how's everything up in Canadia?

17
00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, we're doing just fine. That's good. Still summertimes warm,

18
00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.519
<v Speaker 2>it's nice. I will I think when this shows comes out.

19
00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:11.680
<v Speaker 2>I've just gotten back from a cruise to Alaska for

20
00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:13.319
<v Speaker 2>our friend's fiftieth.

21
00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Awesome and Canadians are still polite no matter what anybody says.

22
00:01:16.719 --> 00:01:20.599
<v Speaker 1>We are, you know, still very smart. And you know

23
00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:24.599
<v Speaker 1>they still trap beavers yeah make maple yep.

24
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:27.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but we release them. You know, there is a

25
00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:29.519
<v Speaker 2>guy in Quebec called the beaver Whisperer.

26
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't this completely fits yes in my mental model.

27
00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.719
<v Speaker 2>No, you know, he's figured out how to manipulate beavers

28
00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:38.680
<v Speaker 2>to get them to build the dams where you wanted

29
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.640
<v Speaker 2>to build them. So it's actually beneficial. Oh that's awesome. Yeah,

30
00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.319
<v Speaker 2>we just had a problem with aa a beaver up

31
00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the road here, and they literally changed the water structure

32
00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.319
<v Speaker 2>so that it doesn't make water flowing noises because that's

33
00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:55.040
<v Speaker 2>what beavers don't like. It's called a laminar flow inlet.

34
00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:57.159
<v Speaker 2>So because does make any sound, the beaver's leave it

35
00:01:57.200 --> 00:01:59.200
<v Speaker 2>alone happens to be good for you too. Well, yeah,

36
00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:01.239
<v Speaker 2>because it doesn't flow thea anymore, which I think is

37
00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:01.719
<v Speaker 2>a feature.

38
00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good feature. Okay, let's roll into better

39
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:15.039
<v Speaker 1>know a framework. So crazy music, queue it up, punch it.

40
00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:17.639
<v Speaker 2>What do you go now?

41
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.919
<v Speaker 1>I gotta preface this by saying I have not used it,

42
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:28.319
<v Speaker 1>but somebody mentioned on Reddit a GitHub repo called blazer

43
00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:32.680
<v Speaker 1>dot input chips and it's got some good traction.

44
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

45
00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.080
<v Speaker 1>And so it's an input control for editing a collection

46
00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:41.879
<v Speaker 1>of chips or otherwise known as tag values. Okay, and

47
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.360
<v Speaker 1>since this is nineteen sixty two, we'll go to nineteen

48
00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.639
<v Speaker 1>sixty two dot pop, dot me, and then we'll go

49
00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.719
<v Speaker 1>right to this Blazer dot input chips and you can

50
00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:53.800
<v Speaker 1>see kind of a demo of where you add a

51
00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:56.879
<v Speaker 1>tag with a textbox and then you get the little

52
00:02:56.919 --> 00:02:59.240
<v Speaker 1>buttons with the X you know, with the tags, and

53
00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.400
<v Speaker 1>then with the X next to them, so you can.

54
00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:02.919
<v Speaker 2>And what are the tag values for?

55
00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:08.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, if you're tagging, let's say, an entry into you know,

56
00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:13.080
<v Speaker 1>or review or putting up some media content and you

57
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.280
<v Speaker 1>want to tag it, you know, like dot net rocks.

58
00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.439
<v Speaker 1>We have tags in dot net rocks, right, sure, So

59
00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:18.840
<v Speaker 1>I actually thought we might.

60
00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Use this.

61
00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.479
<v Speaker 1>As a as a as a way to add tags.

62
00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we already do it because we have a

63
00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:26.759
<v Speaker 1>list of tags and we can do it.

64
00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:29.319
<v Speaker 2>Fine, but that's convenient. Aren't the tags also used for

65
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.800
<v Speaker 2>things like accessibility and stuff or this identifies it for

66
00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:34.919
<v Speaker 2>rather input sources that kind of thing.

67
00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's metadata, right, It's just data that you associate

68
00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.039
<v Speaker 1>with some other data. So making it easier to put

69
00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:41.719
<v Speaker 1>the right mentadata on Blazer.

70
00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I like that.

71
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it looks like just you know, it's a

72
00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:49.000
<v Speaker 1>simple little thing. It doesn't it's not complicated, and it

73
00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:52.479
<v Speaker 1>just looks like somebody's you know, first Blazer project is

74
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:53.120
<v Speaker 1>what it looks like.

75
00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:55.919
<v Speaker 2>But it's cool. I like it. Yeah, no, that spark,

76
00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I like, yeah, good.

77
00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:00.000
<v Speaker 1>All right, So who's talking to us today, Richard?

78
00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.840
<v Speaker 2>I grabbed a comment off of Billy's last show and

79
00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:06.520
<v Speaker 2>that was nineteen fifteen, which we did back in Stember

80
00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:10.879
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty four called it making design pay and

81
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:13.879
<v Speaker 2>one of our regulars and long time. Actually somebody I

82
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:19.079
<v Speaker 2>think I owe an email. Tony Vergouli wrote this a

83
00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:22.560
<v Speaker 2>little bit long comment, but it's worth reading, and I

84
00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:24.160
<v Speaker 2>think it was a reference to something Billy said at

85
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:25.720
<v Speaker 2>the end of the show, which was I can't believe

86
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.920
<v Speaker 2>you guys still listen to me, and so there's no

87
00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:30.759
<v Speaker 2>way I can get tired to listen to you, Billy.

88
00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.560
<v Speaker 2>I routinely direct developers to your talks for them to

89
00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.600
<v Speaker 2>get to think about design, because when I think about design,

90
00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:38.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the times I think about user experience

91
00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.319
<v Speaker 2>and usability. This is probably because it's my first job.

92
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:42.920
<v Speaker 2>I was put in front of clients and I would

93
00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.319
<v Speaker 2>hear the pain points similar to what Carl brought up

94
00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.680
<v Speaker 2>about buttons and where items are placed. Then, as I

95
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.879
<v Speaker 2>heard your talks and the images that you would share

96
00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.000
<v Speaker 2>about not well thought out designs, I grew to understand

97
00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.240
<v Speaker 2>design was not just about the screen, but also included

98
00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.199
<v Speaker 2>user experience, and I appreciate you think about the overall

99
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:03.600
<v Speaker 2>design and experience. Visual designers purely about designing the screen

100
00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:04.839
<v Speaker 2>and not being able to help with any of the

101
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.079
<v Speaker 2>UI code, CSS now or whatever, and I have butted

102
00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.639
<v Speaker 2>heads over the years. I'm working with one now who

103
00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:13.439
<v Speaker 2>created a design for a web based training light app.

104
00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:16.639
<v Speaker 2>His design was pixel perfect and specific to the device,

105
00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.279
<v Speaker 2>which happened to be a surface studio too at one

106
00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:21.920
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent scaling, and had a lot of empty space

107
00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:24.639
<v Speaker 2>around the video player, and the buttons had moving accents

108
00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:28.360
<v Speaker 2>crying look at me. When I questioned and pushed for

109
00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.079
<v Speaker 2>this to be a responsive app, he told me not

110
00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:32.279
<v Speaker 2>to spend time addressing something for the future, and the

111
00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.000
<v Speaker 2>clients said they were running it on these devices in

112
00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.600
<v Speaker 2>the lapp. After delivering the app to the client, Oh

113
00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that's the best lie ever, isn't it. After delivering the

114
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.160
<v Speaker 2>app to the client, the client commented that the about

115
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.199
<v Speaker 2>the massive amount of empty space that was their term

116
00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.600
<v Speaker 2>needing to zoom the browser to fifty percent because the

117
00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.319
<v Speaker 2>default scale in the Surface Studio two is two hundred percent,

118
00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:53.040
<v Speaker 2>and that the app was not responsive to run on

119
00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:57.959
<v Speaker 2>the employee's devices remotely. Obviously, there was a failure to

120
00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.879
<v Speaker 2>understand their needs. However, there's also failure of the visual

121
00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.800
<v Speaker 2>designer to create a design specific to the device. This

122
00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.240
<v Speaker 2>may have been because the previous apps he designed were

123
00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:08.560
<v Speaker 2>for a specific Kioscar trade show device. To me, this

124
00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.519
<v Speaker 2>type of design feels like static designs use on boxes

125
00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.480
<v Speaker 2>or billboards versus business web apps. Designer in question only

126
00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:18.240
<v Speaker 2>knows how to use Figma and Zeppelin, and that designer

127
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:22.079
<v Speaker 2>is all about visual, which is unfortunate. They do not

128
00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.240
<v Speaker 2>want to hear feedback from the team. The design tool

129
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.160
<v Speaker 2>does not matter to me, but I liked having sketchy

130
00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:29.800
<v Speaker 2>tools best at client meetings. So they are not critiquing

131
00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:33.639
<v Speaker 2>the color and more focus on the flow and the experience. Yep,

132
00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.199
<v Speaker 2>any design tool is fine as long as their collaboration.

133
00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:39.839
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate your thinking and sharing. I hope to see

134
00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:42.920
<v Speaker 2>you in Philly again and have a relaxed with a

135
00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:45.240
<v Speaker 2>glass of sweet tea. I'm also hoping that Carl and

136
00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:47.959
<v Speaker 2>Richard will visit Philly again. Probably not a road show

137
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.160
<v Speaker 2>because let's face it, we're getting too old for that stuff.

138
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.399
<v Speaker 1>I it's on my bucket list because I want to

139
00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.560
<v Speaker 1>go down. I love Philly just as a place to

140
00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.560
<v Speaker 1>hang out. And also my friend Jeff Fritz lives down there,

141
00:06:57.600 --> 00:06:58.759
<v Speaker 1>so Jeff's down there.

142
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:00.959
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's on my list. Let's figure that out and

143
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I'll fly out as well, and we'll see how much

144
00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:04.879
<v Speaker 2>trouble we can get into. That would be fun. Yeah, Tony,

145
00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:06.800
<v Speaker 2>we owe you what you've done great things for us

146
00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:09.120
<v Speaker 2>over the years, so you should call in that favor

147
00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:11.319
<v Speaker 2>and we'll figure that out. And thanks so much for

148
00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.199
<v Speaker 2>your comment. And a copy of music Cooba is on

149
00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:14.560
<v Speaker 2>its way to you. And if you'd like a copy

150
00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:15.920
<v Speaker 2>of music, go buy I rite a comment on the

151
00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.639
<v Speaker 2>website at donnetrons dot com or on the facebooks. We

152
00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:20.240
<v Speaker 2>publish every show there, and if you comment there and

153
00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:21.720
<v Speaker 2>we'll read it on the show, we'll send you a

154
00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:22.199
<v Speaker 2>copy of music.

155
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.439
<v Speaker 1>To Kobar and he's talking about music to code by

156
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.120
<v Speaker 1>this is a library of music, twenty five minute tracks

157
00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.120
<v Speaker 1>that I wrote many many years ago and I still

158
00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.439
<v Speaker 1>can contribute to. There's twenty two tracks right now. And

159
00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.279
<v Speaker 1>you can get the entire collection at music toocode by

160
00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:40.600
<v Speaker 1>dot net in MP three flakand wave format. What happened

161
00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.720
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen sixty two, Oh nothing, just this little thing

162
00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:45.879
<v Speaker 1>called the Cuban missile crisis.

163
00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Little thing, just a little thing closest I think we

164
00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:49.720
<v Speaker 2>ever came to nuclear.

165
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Closest we ever came to nuclear war with the you know,

166
00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:57.279
<v Speaker 1>possible exception of now, no, no, not no, This was

167
00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:01.000
<v Speaker 1>way more dangerous. This was way more dangerous, yes, Khrush

168
00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:05.199
<v Speaker 1>chef and we basically had brought a blockade around Cuba.

169
00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.800
<v Speaker 1>We saw some missiles and silos there. We said remove them.

170
00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:12.439
<v Speaker 1>They said no, and you know, hilarity ensued, and we

171
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.560
<v Speaker 1>basically came face to face with their ships and you know,

172
00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:17.240
<v Speaker 1>cooler heads.

173
00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:22.160
<v Speaker 2>There was a moment where a missile armed submarine of

174
00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:25.040
<v Speaker 2>the Soviet Union was headed towards Cuba. It was about

175
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.319
<v Speaker 2>to interceed on the blockade, and then they blinked and

176
00:08:27.319 --> 00:08:29.879
<v Speaker 2>turned around. Yeah, thank god. It was an air thing,

177
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.000
<v Speaker 2>without a doubt. Terrible.

178
00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:33.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, other things happened too, Okay, So that started a

179
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:39.039
<v Speaker 1>USM bargo against Cuba, and so John Glenn, Yeah, February twentieth,

180
00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:42.080
<v Speaker 1>first American to orbit the Earth aboard Friendship seven.

181
00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.919
<v Speaker 2>Later that year, Carpenter also, yeah, well that started it off.

182
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.720
<v Speaker 2>I guess that was the first American in orbit. Yeah.

183
00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:51.960
<v Speaker 2>Marily Monroe died in August fifth. If you don't know

184
00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.679
<v Speaker 2>who she is, just google her. I might want to

185
00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:00.200
<v Speaker 2>put it in safe mode though. Sixty two feet a

186
00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.679
<v Speaker 2>World Cup held in Chili. Brazil won the tournament, solidifying

187
00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.559
<v Speaker 2>its status and international futbol. You got some more stuff there,

188
00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.720
<v Speaker 2>a little more space. This was the beginning of the

189
00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:15.399
<v Speaker 2>Mariner series of the space of florers. The two of

190
00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:17.679
<v Speaker 2>them flew in nineteen sixty two, the very first one

191
00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Mariner one who which promptly exploded and fell into the ocean,

192
00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and the second one that was in July. In August,

193
00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:28.240
<v Speaker 2>they flew Mariner two, same kind of satellite, same rocket,

194
00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.399
<v Speaker 2>but this one made it into orbit and by December

195
00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.519
<v Speaker 2>made the first fly by a Venus, the first time

196
00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.600
<v Speaker 2>humans had ever sent a piece of their machinery to

197
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:36.279
<v Speaker 2>another planet.

198
00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, and after studying Venus, everybody said, ouch, I'm not

199
00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:40.559
<v Speaker 1>going there.

200
00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.480
<v Speaker 2>No, not a hostile. It's a little nasty. Don't at nasty.

201
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.399
<v Speaker 2>Although there's an interesting idea about building cloud cities around Venus.

202
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.399
<v Speaker 2>There's a point in altitude's about seventy five kilometers up

203
00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.559
<v Speaker 2>where it's one atmosphere of pressure, although not breatheable, lots

204
00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:01.360
<v Speaker 2>of solar at about one G. You know, it'd be

205
00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.279
<v Speaker 2>the most comfortable environment you could live in. And because

206
00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the atmosphere is so dense, you could literally fill a

207
00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.720
<v Speaker 2>big balloon with air and it would float on it. Wow,

208
00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:11.440
<v Speaker 2>and you could breathe it. And if you tore a

209
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:13.519
<v Speaker 2>hole in it, it would it wouldn't blow out, it

210
00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:14.720
<v Speaker 2>would just slowly leak anyway.

211
00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.519
<v Speaker 1>So one G means the same amount of gravity. We

212
00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:18.559
<v Speaker 1>enjoy the same amount of gravity. Yeah, so it wouldn't

213
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.759
<v Speaker 1>mess with us. No, we'd be pretty comfortable except for

214
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.320
<v Speaker 1>the except if that atmosphere leaked up in there, that

215
00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:23.720
<v Speaker 1>would be.

216
00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:26.440
<v Speaker 2>The whole floating, you know, on top of a pile

217
00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.960
<v Speaker 2>of sulfur cacid is you know, Yeah, I'm not sure

218
00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:30.519
<v Speaker 2>I like that anyway. Let me give you a little

219
00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:31.159
<v Speaker 2>computer history.

220
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.919
<v Speaker 1>And then we discovered that it rains up instead of down,

221
00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.840
<v Speaker 1>right right, So go ahead.

222
00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Computer history. There is a computer called the link computer

223
00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:44.039
<v Speaker 2>l I n C stating for a laboratory instrument computer,

224
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:47.799
<v Speaker 2>which is arguably the first PC ever made. It was

225
00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:50.200
<v Speaker 2>designed at MIT and built by Deck. There was only

226
00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.720
<v Speaker 2>fifty of them made. It had twelve bit words and

227
00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.679
<v Speaker 2>the original model had oneenty twenty four words. Later was

228
00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:03.919
<v Speaker 2>upgraded to twenty and forty eight of fully words and

229
00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:06.759
<v Speaker 2>it was made for transistors, so that's why it was

230
00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:10.559
<v Speaker 2>relatively compact. It was two units that were three foot

231
00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:12.600
<v Speaker 2>tall and twenty inches wide. You could stack them one

232
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:14.120
<v Speaker 2>on top of your other if you want a six

233
00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.279
<v Speaker 2>foot tall computer, or you know, go wider about for

234
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.840
<v Speaker 2>three and a half feet wide. The units typically had

235
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.879
<v Speaker 2>two tape drives, a display, control console, and a keyboard.

236
00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.879
<v Speaker 2>There were about forty thousand US dollars in nineteen sixty two.

237
00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.039
<v Speaker 2>Wow Jeez. Famously a lady by the name of Mary

238
00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:36.159
<v Speaker 2>Allen Wilkes who was one of the very early programmers

239
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.799
<v Speaker 2>in the fifties working at it, initially on IBM computers,

240
00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.480
<v Speaker 2>but she helped the original designer of link Fellow by

241
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the name of Leslie Clark on this design. She wrote

242
00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.399
<v Speaker 2>the operating manuals and later wrote an operating system for it,

243
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.799
<v Speaker 2>and has the best quotes ever. The first quote was

244
00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.360
<v Speaker 2>because she took one of these things home Wow. So

245
00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.440
<v Speaker 2>she was able to say before anybody else, I'll bet

246
00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:59.759
<v Speaker 2>you don't have a computer in your living room. And

247
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.639
<v Speaker 2>my favorite quote of them all in thinking back about programming,

248
00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.480
<v Speaker 2>she said, we had this quaint notion at the time

249
00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:10.039
<v Speaker 2>that software should be completely, absolutely free of bugs. Unfortunately,

250
00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:12.159
<v Speaker 2>it's a notion that never really quite caught on.

251
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.120
<v Speaker 1>It was Doug Crockford's say at the end of his talks,

252
00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:18.360
<v Speaker 1>don't write bugs.

253
00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:25.120
<v Speaker 2>This advice, Thanks Doug. One other mit deck collaboration from

254
00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:29.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty two. The previous year, in sixty one, Deck

255
00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.279
<v Speaker 2>sent a PDP one to MIT and in nineteen sixty

256
00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.720
<v Speaker 2>two a group of developers wrote a video game on

257
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:40.759
<v Speaker 2>it called Space War Space War. Yeah. Yeah, so that's

258
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:41.960
<v Speaker 2>also nineteen sixty two.

259
00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.919
<v Speaker 1>Wow. All right, Well, I guess it's time then to

260
00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.480
<v Speaker 1>welcome Reverend Billy back to dot net rocks for the

261
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.879
<v Speaker 1>umpteenth fifty million times, fifty eleventh time, or how do

262
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:54.879
<v Speaker 1>you say that in this sound fifty eleventh for eleventh time.

263
00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.679
<v Speaker 1>Billy hollis, if you don't know, as a software designer

264
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:03.039
<v Speaker 1>and developer with a contrarian streak that often challenges conventional

265
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.879
<v Speaker 1>wisdom in the industry. He has a consulting practice in Nashville, Tennessee,

266
00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.519
<v Speaker 1>and he and his team focus on User experience design UX,

267
00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.559
<v Speaker 1>Advanced user interface development, rules based architectures, and healthcare systems.

268
00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.879
<v Speaker 1>He teaches classes for design thinking in UX design and

269
00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.720
<v Speaker 1>technical classes on ZAMO for when UI xamble for WPF

270
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:26.840
<v Speaker 1>is when UI still a thing, there's that an old bio,

271
00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:31.639
<v Speaker 1>it is still a thing. Well, welcome Billy, welcome back.

272
00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.879
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's always always a pleasure, guys. And you know,

273
00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:38.679
<v Speaker 3>as as I said in the last and that comment

274
00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.360
<v Speaker 3>from Conny, which I genuinely appreciate, he's he and I

275
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.399
<v Speaker 3>have talked many times over the years. I do kind

276
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:49.200
<v Speaker 3>of wonder why people continue to want to listen.

277
00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.879
<v Speaker 2>But then I thought about it.

278
00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.279
<v Speaker 3>I went, I went back, and I'll listened to the

279
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.759
<v Speaker 3>last podcast, and actually there was a lot of interesting

280
00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:01.399
<v Speaker 3>new stuff in it, and I think that we continue.

281
00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.440
<v Speaker 3>It's about a year between codcasts basically, and with that

282
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.559
<v Speaker 3>amount of time, there's always something new happening. I'm I'm

283
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.159
<v Speaker 3>poking my fingers into something new so well.

284
00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.080
<v Speaker 2>And I also find like I pay attention to what

285
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.159
<v Speaker 2>sessions you're writing too, and your current thing is often

286
00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:20.440
<v Speaker 2>reflected in that like, you take feedback of your experiences

287
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.279
<v Speaker 2>and you try and teach the new ways you're thinking

288
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.360
<v Speaker 2>that you're that you find emerging from the work you're doing.

289
00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:30.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, since we do projects, real projects, and not only

290
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:34.039
<v Speaker 3>real projects, but you also get a sense of thinking

291
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.120
<v Speaker 3>and what's important and what people are grappling with when

292
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.679
<v Speaker 3>you talk to people at conferences, and I do. I

293
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.919
<v Speaker 3>talked to quite a lot of them, and that gives

294
00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:45.279
<v Speaker 3>you kind of a statistical sample that you can draw

295
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.639
<v Speaker 3>some conclusions on about what the general community finds to

296
00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:50.320
<v Speaker 3>be interesting.

297
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

298
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, our listeners have used to fact that a dot

299
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.360
<v Speaker 1>net Rocks episode goes way beyond the title in terms

300
00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:01.120
<v Speaker 1>of topics. We use that as jumping off point and

301
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.840
<v Speaker 1>then talk about the other things that brings to mind.

302
00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.600
<v Speaker 1>We've always done that, so it's always good talking to you, sir.

303
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:12.639
<v Speaker 3>And the legacy apps thing came about from a request

304
00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.399
<v Speaker 3>actually from someone because I do these lunch and learn

305
00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:17.759
<v Speaker 3>type things for companies.

306
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Virtually.

307
00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:20.960
<v Speaker 3>That's a fairly new thing because only in the last

308
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:25.759
<v Speaker 3>few years have people had the infrastructure available typically to

309
00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.279
<v Speaker 3>do that. And so I have a list of topics

310
00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:31.120
<v Speaker 3>that I do for people. They just call me up

311
00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.480
<v Speaker 3>and I do it. That's kind of our substitute for

312
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.039
<v Speaker 3>sales because we don't do sales for consulting. So that's

313
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.960
<v Speaker 3>a way of letting people get familiar with what we do, right.

314
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:43.600
<v Speaker 3>And one company said, you know, we'd like to have

315
00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.480
<v Speaker 3>you do that, but you talk a lot about all

316
00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.759
<v Speaker 3>these new systems that that you design and create, and

317
00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:52.320
<v Speaker 3>we're not going to be able to do that for

318
00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.039
<v Speaker 3>a long time. We've got this legacy app, we got

319
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:57.799
<v Speaker 3>millions of dollars in it. Can you help us understand

320
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.519
<v Speaker 3>a little bit about what we might do, how we

321
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.039
<v Speaker 3>might apply some of the stuff you know for the

322
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.519
<v Speaker 3>legacy world. And I drew up a session based on

323
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:08.080
<v Speaker 3>that and started doing any conferences and it has been

324
00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.360
<v Speaker 3>popular because, let's face it, a lot of people have

325
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.360
<v Speaker 3>those legacy apps. They have a huge amount of investment

326
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.480
<v Speaker 3>in them. Plus the fact that legacy apps are risky

327
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.720
<v Speaker 3>to replace if you're talking about a complete replacement.

328
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, I want to cure your definition of a legacy app.

329
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.799
<v Speaker 1>I have my own, but it's probably the same as yours,

330
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:27.559
<v Speaker 1>but let's hear yours.

331
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.200
<v Speaker 3>A legacy app to me is something that has that

332
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:35.200
<v Speaker 3>has been built with less than the modern leading edge

333
00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.759
<v Speaker 3>technologies and has typically been around for ten years or more,

334
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.399
<v Speaker 3>sometimes up to twenty five or thirty years, and it's working.

335
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.320
<v Speaker 1>And it's working, right, It's not like it's not a pejorative.

336
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.639
<v Speaker 1>This is making money for us, Yeah.

337
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.960
<v Speaker 3>It is not. The business depends upon this application. In

338
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:55.840
<v Speaker 3>almost all cases, that application, if it were gone or

339
00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:00.399
<v Speaker 3>you tried to replace it and you failed, that would

340
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.480
<v Speaker 3>have an existential consequence for the business. So all these

341
00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:06.720
<v Speaker 3>are very very important, a lot of money in them

342
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.279
<v Speaker 3>and a lot of risk. And I know plenty of

343
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.160
<v Speaker 3>examples of companies that have tried to replace legacy apps

344
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.000
<v Speaker 3>and have have hit that failure point. I mean, even

345
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.920
<v Speaker 3>Windows eight, as far as I'm concerned, is in that category.

346
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:21.279
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

347
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:25.759
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, they tried to completely rethink a legacy application, well

348
00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.000
<v Speaker 3>a legacy operating system in this case, and completely failed

349
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.960
<v Speaker 3>at producing something new and lost billions of dollars. Well,

350
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.680
<v Speaker 3>most companies can't afford to lose that kind of money.

351
00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.720
<v Speaker 1>Right, So the trick is that you need people on

352
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.400
<v Speaker 1>staff that can see the problems, whether they're security issues,

353
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.559
<v Speaker 1>because let's face it, security issues are like the number

354
00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.440
<v Speaker 1>one thing, right. There's an exploit in some DLL that

355
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:51.759
<v Speaker 1>somebody was using and you have to patch it, and

356
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.640
<v Speaker 1>patching it might mean a lot of pain, and it

357
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.799
<v Speaker 1>might be impossible to patch because of its dependency tree.

358
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.039
<v Speaker 3>Well as legacy apps are that there's a very nice

359
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.519
<v Speaker 3>tension there because it is very high risk in order

360
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.400
<v Speaker 3>to replace them. If your if your platform becomes obsolete enough,

361
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.000
<v Speaker 3>or you've run into some of those security holes and

362
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.039
<v Speaker 3>some of the other things that can go wrong, you

363
00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.359
<v Speaker 3>may eventure, or the business may change in various ways.

364
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:19.039
<v Speaker 3>You may eventually get to the point where it's actually

365
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.440
<v Speaker 3>a mess risk to go ahead and start over that.

366
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.160
<v Speaker 3>But that's a that's a very tough thing, and most

367
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.519
<v Speaker 3>businesses will put that off as long as they can.

368
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Because well they should. Yeah, high risks or reward.

369
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And that's that to me is one of the

370
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:39.319
<v Speaker 3>key things about looking at UX design for legacy apps

371
00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.039
<v Speaker 3>versus looking at UX design to do a completely replacement,

372
00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:45.279
<v Speaker 3>which we do a lot of. Of course, there are

373
00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.319
<v Speaker 3>people doing it, and if you're going to completely replace,

374
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.079
<v Speaker 3>why wouldn't you redesign to really make it leading edge?

375
00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:52.400
<v Speaker 2>Sure?

376
00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.759
<v Speaker 1>You know what's really annoying, Billy is when a perfectly

377
00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.000
<v Speaker 1>find a perfectly good working application on the Internet that

378
00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:05.319
<v Speaker 1>you're using, like, oh, I don't know, Riverside completely changes

379
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:10.039
<v Speaker 1>the way that you flow through your you know, do

380
00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.759
<v Speaker 1>do your thing right. They put more layers in front

381
00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.880
<v Speaker 1>of you that you have to navigate through. Whereas before

382
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:16.519
<v Speaker 1>it was one button click you knew exactly where the

383
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:20.559
<v Speaker 1>button was. Now there's more layers and for what you know,

384
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.599
<v Speaker 1>just makes me me angry. Here's another one. The bank

385
00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Speaker 1>that we currently use that we have to pay people

386
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.079
<v Speaker 1>with ACCH you know, direct deposit for those who don't

387
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:34.119
<v Speaker 1>know what that is. We have we have to scroll

388
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.839
<v Speaker 1>through all of this stuff and they did a complete revamp.

389
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.279
<v Speaker 1>But what they didn't do is fix the problems that

390
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:44.920
<v Speaker 1>were already there. They added more problems. Just infuriating.

391
00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:49.240
<v Speaker 3>I think that I've I've kind of come to and

392
00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:53.359
<v Speaker 3>understanding that one of the reasons that that sort of

393
00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:58.079
<v Speaker 3>thing tends to happen is that software development teams in

394
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:03.640
<v Speaker 3>the modern era are focused a lot more on granular

395
00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.839
<v Speaker 3>features than they are on big picture and workflow and

396
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.680
<v Speaker 3>things like that. And Okay, this is probably going to

397
00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.240
<v Speaker 3>get into ranting territory here, which is go so if

398
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:22.079
<v Speaker 3>I should. But one of the reasons why there is

399
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.440
<v Speaker 3>that focus on granular features. It comes from the widespread

400
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.960
<v Speaker 3>use of Agile methodologies because they tend to focus on

401
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:35.079
<v Speaker 3>features in a very gradual, in a very granular sort

402
00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.720
<v Speaker 3>of way. The typical backlog has a lot of features

403
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.000
<v Speaker 3>on it, and if somebody on the team goes to

404
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.119
<v Speaker 3>get something off the backlog and work on they are

405
00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:45.960
<v Speaker 3>charged with working on that feature and getting that to work.

406
00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:47.759
<v Speaker 3>And then they just kind of put it on a

407
00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.759
<v Speaker 3>menu or something, or put it on a button somewhere, however,

408
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.640
<v Speaker 3>and they don't really think about how it fits into

409
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.559
<v Speaker 3>a bigger context. And you know, I have to give

410
00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.400
<v Speaker 3>the usual disclaimers when I'm suggesting that Agile is less

411
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.559
<v Speaker 3>than perfect, because there are people out there who will

412
00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:07.759
<v Speaker 3>who will get upset about that because it's it's it's

413
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.319
<v Speaker 3>something that they're kind of emotionally attached to. I find

414
00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:13.200
<v Speaker 3>that's a that's a small minority actually of the people

415
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:17.119
<v Speaker 3>who use Agile, but they are a very vocal minority,

416
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:19.400
<v Speaker 3>and so I tend to hear from them, and I

417
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:22.759
<v Speaker 3>like to emphasize no, for the code centric parts of

418
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:28.160
<v Speaker 3>your of your application development, you've got to have something

419
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.440
<v Speaker 3>to manage it. And we work with lots of clients

420
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.599
<v Speaker 3>and about two thirds of them use some variation of Agile,

421
00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:37.359
<v Speaker 3>so I've seen quite a number of them, and certainly

422
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.839
<v Speaker 3>in terms of getting the feedback, keeping people going, keeping

423
00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.799
<v Speaker 3>from getting blocked, there's some value there for most of

424
00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:46.960
<v Speaker 3>the people who use it. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.

425
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.519
<v Speaker 3>And I think one of the big defects is not

426
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:55.920
<v Speaker 3>looking at things from the big picture and not drawing back, and.

427
00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.160
<v Speaker 1>The big picture can change, and it most likely does,

428
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:00.359
<v Speaker 1>doesn't it. Like you know, you start off with a

429
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.839
<v Speaker 1>good UI that where you have everything organized and it's

430
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:05.359
<v Speaker 1>perfect the way that you've designed it, and then new

431
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.640
<v Speaker 1>features coming along and you're not quite sure how to

432
00:22:07.640 --> 00:22:09.279
<v Speaker 1>get there and how to put them there, and then

433
00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:13.960
<v Speaker 1>it turns into this much. And I think, without telling

434
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:17.079
<v Speaker 1>who it is, one of my customers I recommended you

435
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.000
<v Speaker 1>because they were looking to do some UX redesign you

436
00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.440
<v Speaker 1>I redesign, and they said they're very happy with the

437
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.319
<v Speaker 1>stuff that you've done for them so far. But I

438
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:28.240
<v Speaker 1>think that might be a good example of that something

439
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:32.039
<v Speaker 1>that started out working really really well and then just

440
00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:34.000
<v Speaker 1>grew and grew and grew, and now they have to

441
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:37.000
<v Speaker 1>think about redesigning it. But it's definitely a big picture change,

442
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:38.160
<v Speaker 1>isn't it.

443
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.480
<v Speaker 3>It is, And you really have to draw back to

444
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:42.200
<v Speaker 3>look at things from the big picture to do it.

445
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.279
<v Speaker 3>And so if you're in the grind of just going

446
00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.799
<v Speaker 3>forward two week sprints, get stuff off the backlogs, try

447
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:52.599
<v Speaker 3>to whittle let backlog down. If that's the only thing

448
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.839
<v Speaker 3>you're thinking about, then you're going to get into that

449
00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.519
<v Speaker 3>kind of a mess. Now, theoretically speaking, there's some project

450
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.440
<v Speaker 3>manager role that a product manager role that that that

451
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:06.640
<v Speaker 3>is supposed to be looking at that and supposed to

452
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.480
<v Speaker 3>be doing big picture. In my experience, in general, big

453
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.079
<v Speaker 3>picture thinking ought to be a part of everybody on

454
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:17.400
<v Speaker 3>the team because that that person can't know and think

455
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.119
<v Speaker 3>of everything. So so I hope that that they'll give

456
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:25.640
<v Speaker 3>me a little bit of of of looseness on the

457
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Agile side, that they won't think that I'm trying to

458
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.200
<v Speaker 3>tell them that that they shouldn't do that, just that

459
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:33.839
<v Speaker 3>they need to spend some time thinking about the big picture.

460
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.119
<v Speaker 3>Because because I run into this whenever I say, look,

461
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:41.440
<v Speaker 3>Agile doesn't do this well, one of the common things

462
00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:43.799
<v Speaker 3>I get in response is well.

463
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:46.240
<v Speaker 2>That's not really agile, yeah right.

464
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 3>That, yeah, that's that's that is I think of that

465
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.359
<v Speaker 3>anyway as an example of the no true Scotsman logical fallacy.

466
00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:58.880
<v Speaker 2>You guys know that one.

467
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.799
<v Speaker 3>It's like, you know, no true Scotts, no Scotsman puts

468
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:05.480
<v Speaker 3>sugar in his porridge.

469
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.559
<v Speaker 1>Right, No true Scotsman dips his Scotch eggs and Marl.

470
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:14.000
<v Speaker 3>My cousin Angus likes sugar in his porridge. Yes, but

471
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.480
<v Speaker 3>no true Scotsman so must not be a true Scotsman

472
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.960
<v Speaker 3>that that kind of that kind of thinking does not

473
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.680
<v Speaker 3>get into the the the reality of the fact.

474
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Maybe they're right.

475
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.799
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, I'm not.

476
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.400
<v Speaker 1>It's an excuse to ignore the facts in front of you.

477
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:39.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm not on the Council of High holy people

478
00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:44.240
<v Speaker 3>who define what agile is. I'm not in that. Apparently

479
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:46.640
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people are, but I am not on that,

480
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.960
<v Speaker 3>And I don't know. I just know what I see,

481
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.960
<v Speaker 3>and I see that if I see teams doing things

482
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:55.759
<v Speaker 3>the same way a lot of different teams, then I

483
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.279
<v Speaker 3>have to presume that that's kind of part of what

484
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:00.440
<v Speaker 3>agile is. Is that enough for the rant? I guess

485
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.119
<v Speaker 3>we should get back to when we get back to

486
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:02.680
<v Speaker 3>real stuff.

487
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 2>Slash soapbox. When you're where you're tackling the problem of

488
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.519
<v Speaker 2>a legacy rewrite like this. I mean, obviously you're jumping

489
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.799
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of versions or jumping into a different stock entirely.

490
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Is this all about initially rendering a ux just sitting

491
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:17.799
<v Speaker 2>with the people who use the app and say, how

492
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:20.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, how much of your workflow is based on

493
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 2>how this software works versus how much of your workflow

494
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, really flows?

495
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's it varies all the way. From man, we're

496
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:32.079
<v Speaker 3>throwing out everything we've got, including the back end. But

497
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.799
<v Speaker 3>more commonly, what I find in general is that companies

498
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:37.759
<v Speaker 3>have done a pretty good job in the dot neet

499
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:42.000
<v Speaker 3>era of getting their back end to the point where

500
00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:42.559
<v Speaker 3>it needs to.

501
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Be, because it costs money, and.

502
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:45.839
<v Speaker 3>It costs a lot of money if you don't get

503
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:50.119
<v Speaker 3>that right, and it creates problems that are really hard

504
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:54.000
<v Speaker 3>to work around. So I find that the majority of

505
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 3>the people we go into have done a pretty good

506
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.440
<v Speaker 3>job of getting their back into place. So now they're

507
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:00.839
<v Speaker 3>replacing the front end, and that makes sense. You think

508
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:07.759
<v Speaker 3>about all the proliferation by that word always stumbles me up.

509
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.799
<v Speaker 3>Do you guys have words like proliferation is one of them?

510
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:16.160
<v Speaker 3>And another one for me is interoperability, I have to.

511
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Correct. That's why we always say interopt.

512
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:25.319
<v Speaker 3>But the proliferation of different devices and form factors in

513
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:28.640
<v Speaker 3>many cases pushes people towards new platforms for pushing the

514
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.759
<v Speaker 3>app out because they have to there are people that

515
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:33.240
<v Speaker 3>they have to have to reach. So that will cause

516
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.440
<v Speaker 3>a really dramatically route of the front end, maybe multiple

517
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.519
<v Speaker 3>front ends. But then there's another layer of Okay, we

518
00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:42.359
<v Speaker 3>got a business app, and you know it's running the

519
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:46.079
<v Speaker 3>business and it's doing fine, and we know we could

520
00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:50.160
<v Speaker 3>take advantage off some of the modern UI technologies and

521
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:52.759
<v Speaker 3>we could do better. We could improve this app, but

522
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.240
<v Speaker 3>they are not at the point where they're ready to

523
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.319
<v Speaker 3>take on the risk of a complete front end replacement.

524
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.519
<v Speaker 3>And that's what that's session that we talked about is about.

525
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 3>When you're stuck with this business I shouldn't say stuck

526
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:09.240
<v Speaker 3>with If you have decided that it's meeting your business

527
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:12.519
<v Speaker 3>needs in general, that doesn't mean you can't still try

528
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:14.880
<v Speaker 3>to try to improve it because there's a lot of

529
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.039
<v Speaker 3>a lot of latitude to do that.

530
00:27:16.759 --> 00:27:18.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I got to think of this. If your

531
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>app is that critical to the workflow, every minute you

532
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 2>can cut off achieving a task represents significant savings over

533
00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:29.720
<v Speaker 2>and over and over again. Every time you can avoid

534
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 2>causing a mistake that happens routinely, they all have big benefits.

535
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.079
<v Speaker 2>Little incremental improvement should have huge benefit.

536
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.119
<v Speaker 3>And that is the two usual metrics you're looking at

537
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:42.680
<v Speaker 3>as a justification for doing it. Is that you're speeding

538
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.839
<v Speaker 3>people up and you're keeping them from making as many mistakes.

539
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:50.279
<v Speaker 3>And there is a normous room for improvement, partially because

540
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.519
<v Speaker 3>of the way we came at building applications in the

541
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 3>first place. Our first round of automation back in the

542
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.960
<v Speaker 3>eighties and nineties was almost just pure database apps, file

543
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:05.000
<v Speaker 3>maintenance apps. Sure that you are basically using the computer

544
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:10.279
<v Speaker 3>screen as a replacement for paper and folders and such.

545
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 3>And you know, we still see we still see the

546
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.799
<v Speaker 3>effects of that today. What I tell people in that session,

547
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:18.319
<v Speaker 3>one of the things I tell people in that session

548
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.400
<v Speaker 3>is if you look at a business app and you

549
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.799
<v Speaker 3>look at the menu, and you can map the menu

550
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:28.000
<v Speaker 3>of the business app to the database schema, then you

551
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:33.279
<v Speaker 3>have an enormous room for improving how that app helps

552
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.440
<v Speaker 3>users do their jobs. Because if that's the way it is,

553
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:38.960
<v Speaker 3>the user has got Let's say the user's got like

554
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:44.960
<v Speaker 3>five five steps in some work task that they've got

555
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.200
<v Speaker 3>to do. If you've got that database style thing, that

556
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.680
<v Speaker 3>probably means they go to four or five different places

557
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 3>in the app to do it. They have to bounce

558
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.400
<v Speaker 3>around in the menus and they have to do this

559
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:58.880
<v Speaker 3>part of it and then go over to someplace completely

560
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 3>different to do the next thing. Well, from a design perspective,

561
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 3>one of the things we try to do is limit

562
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:15.839
<v Speaker 3>the use of short term memory and limit the use

563
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.079
<v Speaker 3>of attention, because both of those are limited. That's just

564
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.680
<v Speaker 3>built into our heads that we've only got so much.

565
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:26.319
<v Speaker 3>So if you're having to split your attention between navigating

566
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.160
<v Speaker 3>menus and the actual work task that you're trying to accomplish,

567
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:33.480
<v Speaker 3>that now you're using up your attention. And if you

568
00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:35.920
<v Speaker 3>have to track where I am, Oh, did I finish

569
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:37.880
<v Speaker 3>step three and ready to go over to a different

570
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.720
<v Speaker 3>menu for step four, if you are having to do that,

571
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:45.200
<v Speaker 3>you are straining your short term memory. And so the

572
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.720
<v Speaker 3>options that the possibilities for doing better are quite dramatic.

573
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.359
<v Speaker 3>And you can speed people up, as Richard said, and

574
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.000
<v Speaker 3>you can prevent errors by keeping people from doing things

575
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:56.279
<v Speaker 3>out of order and stuff like that.

576
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:58.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, one of my customers is dealing with this

577
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.279
<v Speaker 1>now and it's the Microsoft Office problem, right. You think

578
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.279
<v Speaker 1>about Microsoft Office. First everything was in menus, then they

579
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:08.000
<v Speaker 1>had a menu bar, then they had the ribbon, and

580
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:10.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, we when we started out with this customer,

581
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.720
<v Speaker 1>they were adamant that they wanted to standardize the menus,

582
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.799
<v Speaker 1>like every page has an action menu, where in a

583
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.640
<v Speaker 1>view menu where you can go to different pages and

584
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:22.559
<v Speaker 1>action menu, we can do the things. But some of

585
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.640
<v Speaker 1>the actions are so critical and some of the navigations

586
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.279
<v Speaker 1>are so critical they pull them out of those menus

587
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.240
<v Speaker 1>and put them well not pull them out, but they

588
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:34.480
<v Speaker 1>add buttons to the top of the page that do

589
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:37.960
<v Speaker 1>those things because they're so critical that they don't want

590
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:39.839
<v Speaker 1>the user to have to go search for them in

591
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.160
<v Speaker 1>a menu. Well, that brings up the question why have

592
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.839
<v Speaker 1>anything in the menu if because you have to search

593
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 1>for it? I mean, yeah, just because it's not critical,

594
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:51.599
<v Speaker 1>they're still going to have to search for it. So

595
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:54.440
<v Speaker 1>just it's it's a good tension.

596
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:58.160
<v Speaker 3>That's a great example of the the Yeah, the philosophy,

597
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:02.920
<v Speaker 3>the physical philosophical approach from my perspective, is especially in

598
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:05.480
<v Speaker 3>legacy apps, you don't necessarily want to take away the

599
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.319
<v Speaker 3>way things are done now that would have a lot

600
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:10.839
<v Speaker 3>of ramifications that you don't want to deal with. But sure,

601
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.759
<v Speaker 3>there's nothing wrong with finding different ways to get to

602
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:18.920
<v Speaker 3>those steps in a workflow, or creating completely separate views

603
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:22.720
<v Speaker 3>that say, Okay, I've got the five steps. Why don't

604
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.440
<v Speaker 3>we create another view that has those buttons to get

605
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.720
<v Speaker 3>to those five steps and maybe some kind of tracking

606
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.279
<v Speaker 3>that says, yes, I've done this and that one. You know,

607
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:33.759
<v Speaker 3>change the visuals a little bit.

608
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Now. People off share, especially when you start thinking about

609
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:39.920
<v Speaker 2>different devices, right, Like, you've been doing this all this

610
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>time on a PC, but now they really want to

611
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:43.960
<v Speaker 2>be able to use a tablet or a phone, and

612
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 2>the ux menaphores are different. The Hamburger menu makes sense

613
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:48.640
<v Speaker 2>in that scenario, and it doesn't make sense on a PC.

614
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:52.000
<v Speaker 3>So that that's kind of what I encourage people to

615
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.960
<v Speaker 3>do when I talk about the legacy app thing is

616
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.880
<v Speaker 3>look for the common workflows, the one that a lot

617
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.000
<v Speaker 3>as you you said earlier, the ones that a lot

618
00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:02.119
<v Speaker 3>of people do a lot of the time, and really

619
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:05.279
<v Speaker 3>make it transparently easy for people to go through that.

620
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:08.599
<v Speaker 3>And notice that you don't just speak people up and

621
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.480
<v Speaker 3>prevent errors. Although those are really two big considerations. You

622
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:16.960
<v Speaker 3>also lower people's stress and fatigue because they're not using

623
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.599
<v Speaker 3>up their short constrated hard and you make it easy

624
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:23.640
<v Speaker 3>for somebody new to walk up to one of these

625
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:29.400
<v Speaker 3>things and carry carry out some process because they don't

626
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 3>have to know as much about how to bounch around

627
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.480
<v Speaker 3>the menu. It would help for I can do a

628
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 3>couple of tangible examples from real projects.

629
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.720
<v Speaker 2>If that would help. Let's do the break.

630
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do the break first, so we'll be right

631
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:43.880
<v Speaker 1>back with Billy's suggestions after we get through this break.

632
00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.920
<v Speaker 1>So stick around. We'll be right back after these very

633
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.000
<v Speaker 1>important mesters.

634
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:49.279
<v Speaker 2>Do you have a.

635
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Complex dot net monolith you'd like to refactor to a

636
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.440
<v Speaker 1>micro services architecture? The micro Service Extractor for dot Net

637
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.720
<v Speaker 1>tool visualizes your app and helps progressively extract code into

638
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 1>micro services. Learn more at aws dot Amazon dot com,

639
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 1>slash modernize, and we're back it starting at rocks some

640
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Carl Franklin, it's Richard Campbell. Hey, that's Reverend Billy Hollis,

641
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:18.440
<v Speaker 1>and he's going to give us some examples for the record,

642
00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:22.400
<v Speaker 1>not a reverend, not for the record, Yes, not a reverend. No,

643
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.160
<v Speaker 1>that's a that's a nickname I gave him after a

644
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.160
<v Speaker 1>hilarious talk that he did at a.

645
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.279
<v Speaker 3>Well it's that Southern accent that I get a little

646
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:31.960
<v Speaker 3>bit excited talking about stuff.

647
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.799
<v Speaker 1>No no, no, dough. It was put your hands on

648
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:38.519
<v Speaker 1>the screen and repeede after me. I am an addicted

649
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:40.240
<v Speaker 1>a code addict.

650
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.559
<v Speaker 3>Do you guys know that video where I started the

651
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.880
<v Speaker 3>whole thing about code addiction was twenty years ago? I know,

652
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 3>isn't that crazy this year because it was at tech

653
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.160
<v Speaker 3>ed two thousand and five. Yeah, and that video, by

654
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:55.440
<v Speaker 3>the way, is still out there on YouTube. Smarty wants

655
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.920
<v Speaker 3>to go look at the technology is.

656
00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:00.799
<v Speaker 2>All absolute, but I will clude it in the show notes. Okay, good, Yeah.

657
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.480
<v Speaker 1>Before you get to your suggestions, I just want to

658
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.960
<v Speaker 1>get back to desktop apps for a bit, because we

659
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:10.320
<v Speaker 1>also forget about keyboard shortcuts with desktop apps, even in

660
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.920
<v Speaker 1>browser apps, keyboard shortcuts, because those are things that you know,

661
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.519
<v Speaker 1>people sitting at their desks don't want to navigate through

662
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:20.880
<v Speaker 1>hierarchical menus. Once they know where they need to go,

663
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:22.920
<v Speaker 1>they should be able to just hit a couple of

664
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:26.480
<v Speaker 1>keys and go there. Anyway, So back to your uh.

665
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:28.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and just to come and finish off that my

666
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 3>philosophy is that having multiple ways to get to things

667
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:35.639
<v Speaker 3>for different classes of users is perfectly fine, and there's

668
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:37.440
<v Speaker 3>a tendency not to do that. Again, going back to

669
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 3>the very beginning of our of our industry, where you

670
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:44.360
<v Speaker 3>have these extremely limited screens, these character based screens that

671
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:46.679
<v Speaker 3>you know there was one function key to get to this,

672
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 3>and the tech support would tell you, oh, if you

673
00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:53.119
<v Speaker 3>want to do this, press F two and then F

674
00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 3>five or whatever. But now with modern UI, you should

675
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:58.239
<v Speaker 3>make you can make multiple ways to get into things,

676
00:34:58.280 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 3>and that's there's nothing really wrong with it.

677
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Nothing wrong with that.

678
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:04.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, one thing that one example that comes to mind

679
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:08.800
<v Speaker 3>is a situation that's not kind of the linear work

680
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:10.440
<v Speaker 3>for we're talking about. I got another one of those

681
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.480
<v Speaker 3>I'll talk about too, But I was working with a

682
00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:17.480
<v Speaker 3>company actually not too far from you, Carl, up in Connecticut,

683
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.159
<v Speaker 3>and they were doing a utility building package. Now, think

684
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:26.159
<v Speaker 3>about somebody answering the phone in a utility building place.

685
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:30.480
<v Speaker 3>What do they need to be able to do in

686
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:33.199
<v Speaker 3>the app to respond to the people that are on

687
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 3>the phone. Well, it turned out, as we discovered there

688
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:44.159
<v Speaker 3>there were about seven things that form the clear large

689
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.119
<v Speaker 3>majority of all the things that they have to ever

690
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 3>answer phone calls about and so in order to do

691
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.320
<v Speaker 3>that work, they had to be able to go to

692
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:55.639
<v Speaker 3>seven different places in the app because they were all

693
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:00.559
<v Speaker 3>completely disconnected things. So that meant that, you know, Marge

694
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:02.960
<v Speaker 3>who's been there twenty five years, she knows exactly what

695
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.880
<v Speaker 3>to do all that, how to do all that, but

696
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.599
<v Speaker 3>then Brittany comes in to fill in for lunch or something.

697
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:13.920
<v Speaker 3>Now she's kind of helpless. So instead, what we designed

698
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.000
<v Speaker 3>there was a screen that said, okay, let's take those

699
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:21.599
<v Speaker 3>seven things and ex put seven buttons basically that go

700
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 3>straight to the thing that you're talking to that particular

701
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.320
<v Speaker 3>person about. So one of them, for example, was this

702
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.880
<v Speaker 3>turns out to be really common lawyers call up the

703
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:35.840
<v Speaker 3>water billing to get final numbers for a property sale clothes.

704
00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:37.599
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lawyer's button. Yeah.

705
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 3>So there's basically a button just to go to go

706
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:41.519
<v Speaker 3>exactly to the place to get.

707
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Use murder button at McDonald's, right.

708
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:43.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

709
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.480
<v Speaker 3>So that's an example of what you think of as

710
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:52.920
<v Speaker 3>hub based workflow. You've got this this central place that

711
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.760
<v Speaker 3>promotes the ability to go to lots of different places,

712
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.360
<v Speaker 3>but there's a reason why you're at the hub. That

713
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:02.960
<v Speaker 3>those things are connected in some fashion. In this case,

714
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:06.079
<v Speaker 3>they're connected by the fact that that's what people call

715
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:10.360
<v Speaker 3>up on the phone to do. So, So that's example.

716
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.159
<v Speaker 3>And then another another one that came up again from

717
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.480
<v Speaker 3>a legacy app that did this just horribly badly, was

718
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:24.400
<v Speaker 3>if you are on a cattle feed lot and you've

719
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:26.840
<v Speaker 3>got cows moving around, and you've got they've got to

720
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.239
<v Speaker 3>be fed, and they got to go to the vet

721
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:33.519
<v Speaker 3>and all this stuff, well it turns out that the

722
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.079
<v Speaker 3>people managing the cattle don't use mobile devices.

723
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Now is it?

724
00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:39.239
<v Speaker 3>Is it obvious?

725
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Why?

726
00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:44.599
<v Speaker 3>No, How long is a mobile device gonna last cattle

727
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.800
<v Speaker 3>feed like condition.

728
00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:50.960
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's been tried and it's there any bandwidth.

729
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:54.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well that's a problem. Yeah, the connectivity could be

730
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:58.159
<v Speaker 3>a problem too. But so basically they still they still

731
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.599
<v Speaker 3>fill out paper forms. Right, so now at the beginning

732
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.199
<v Speaker 3>of the day, somebody has to take all those paper

733
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.920
<v Speaker 3>forms and get all the data into the system. And

734
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:09.760
<v Speaker 3>there's we got to move the cattle from one one

735
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:12.440
<v Speaker 3>pen to another. We got to take into account all

736
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:14.920
<v Speaker 3>the food that was fed the cattle, because that's got

737
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:16.880
<v Speaker 3>to be charged to the owners of the cattle, and

738
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.719
<v Speaker 3>we got to import what happened on the ve veteran

739
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 3>a side. Maybe some cattle died and things like that.

740
00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:24.079
<v Speaker 3>So there's several things that you have to do, and

741
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:25.719
<v Speaker 3>you have to do it every day. Coming on Monday,

742
00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:27.960
<v Speaker 3>you do it for the whole weekend. Right, here's the

743
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.239
<v Speaker 3>real problem. If you leave a step out and you

744
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.239
<v Speaker 3>do the final step that kind of puts all the

745
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:37.559
<v Speaker 3>pieces together. You got on one on the database. Yeah,

746
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean that's really bad. So that was what one

747
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:45.719
<v Speaker 3>of their big customer support burdens was sort of refixing

748
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.639
<v Speaker 3>things up for people who did it out of order.

749
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.519
<v Speaker 2>So one of the ring events. Yeah, that's one of the.

750
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:54.920
<v Speaker 3>Main design things was Okay, here's all those things you

751
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:57.519
<v Speaker 3>got to do, check off. Yes you've done that, No,

752
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:00.280
<v Speaker 3>you have it. Some warnings and things like that. Their

753
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:03.920
<v Speaker 3>error right dropped dramatically and it didn't have to think

754
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:08.440
<v Speaker 3>nearly as stressfully about all the different things that they

755
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:12.400
<v Speaker 3>had to do, and somebody that wasn't really very sophisticated

756
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:14.079
<v Speaker 3>could come in and take care of it.

757
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:15.760
<v Speaker 2>That was a line we used to use on the

758
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:18.440
<v Speaker 2>assistedmin's side when we were doing you know, root cause

759
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:23.440
<v Speaker 2>analysis is be more careful next time. Is not a strategy.

760
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.639
<v Speaker 2>Build this into your software, right, build a name as

761
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>best you can. Yeah, so I think you don't have

762
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:29.760
<v Speaker 2>to be that sensitive.

763
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.360
<v Speaker 3>So most legacy apps have places where you could go

764
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:37.079
<v Speaker 3>in and do that. That you could, but understand that

765
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:41.480
<v Speaker 3>that now is charging you with the responsibility of understanding

766
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.320
<v Speaker 3>the big picture the jobs people carry out the details

767
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:49.360
<v Speaker 3>of those tasks. That's honestly, I think that's the reason

768
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:51.719
<v Speaker 3>a lot of developers don't do it. We talked about

769
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:54.760
<v Speaker 3>code addiction. If you're addicted to code, you don't want

770
00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:57.599
<v Speaker 3>to take time off to go figure that business do.

771
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:01.119
<v Speaker 2>It's also tires to Tony's comment too, which was there

772
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.239
<v Speaker 2>was a designer who wanted nothing to do with what

773
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the customer actually needed, just wanted to design a screen.

774
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:10.920
<v Speaker 3>I think everybody, no matter what their task, they have

775
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:13.039
<v Speaker 3>the thing they like to do, and they have the

776
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:15.639
<v Speaker 3>other stuff that they don't necessarily like to do. But

777
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:20.840
<v Speaker 3>I am blessed. Okay, I'm a generalist. I like solving problems.

778
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.280
<v Speaker 3>None of that stuff bothers me. I love doing it

779
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.239
<v Speaker 3>at all. But I'm a freak, and I understand that

780
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:29.800
<v Speaker 3>most people in the industry aren't like me. But you

781
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.199
<v Speaker 3>need for your own personal growth and you're success in

782
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:40.079
<v Speaker 3>your career. You need to be able to branch out

783
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:43.679
<v Speaker 3>to do those things. If you have a stack of

784
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.280
<v Speaker 3>talents that you do as a developer and one of

785
00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:49.239
<v Speaker 3>them is figuring out what the business needs for this

786
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:53.360
<v Speaker 3>software to do, you're going to do better in your career.

787
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:55.639
<v Speaker 3>And you might even find out you like it well.

788
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:58.480
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, it's super valuable. Right. The fact that fose

789
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:00.760
<v Speaker 2>people struggle with it and aren't key on it, it's

790
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.920
<v Speaker 2>just another case for why you might want to focus

791
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.480
<v Speaker 2>on that. You get a lot of return for them.

792
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:08.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So just look at all those different things you

793
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.639
<v Speaker 3>could do. You can you can learn the principles of

794
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.360
<v Speaker 3>ux design and becoming to be a design You can

795
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.239
<v Speaker 3>learn the principles of facilitation of a group to kind

796
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.800
<v Speaker 3>of help them work through the solution of a problem.

797
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:22.920
<v Speaker 3>And I know all this is not all for everybody,

798
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:29.800
<v Speaker 3>but growing outside just the code and process world, I think, well,

799
00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:35.320
<v Speaker 3>there's also a psychological component to it. How shall I

800
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:40.320
<v Speaker 3>put this. I know people that I've worked with over

801
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:45.719
<v Speaker 3>the years who were extremely talented and very bright, and

802
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:49.320
<v Speaker 3>their careers just never really took off. And what I

803
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:52.760
<v Speaker 3>noticed is kind of the common characteristic among those people

804
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:58.280
<v Speaker 3>is that they lack more for lack of a better

805
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:04.239
<v Speaker 3>term of its, like kindness. They don't project concern for

806
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.400
<v Speaker 3>the people that they're doing the work for. They may

807
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.679
<v Speaker 3>be perfectly professional, but the people that are doing the

808
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:12.199
<v Speaker 3>work for don't get the idea that they care. And

809
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:16.320
<v Speaker 3>you're part of a you're part of a society matrix here.

810
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:19.119
<v Speaker 3>The other people who see what you do need to

811
00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:21.679
<v Speaker 3>need to feel like you care about them. That's just

812
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.280
<v Speaker 3>human that's just the way things are. And if they

813
00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.280
<v Speaker 3>give up, yeah, that's all all life. Yeah, that's life.

814
00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:32.440
<v Speaker 3>And so if you focus so much on code that

815
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:34.760
<v Speaker 3>the people that are involved in the in the other

816
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:37.599
<v Speaker 3>aspects of what you do don't get the idea that

817
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:41.400
<v Speaker 3>you care, then they won't present you with opportunities to

818
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:44.239
<v Speaker 3>do new things and move up and succeed. All my

819
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:48.119
<v Speaker 3>best opportunities in this world have come about because somebody

820
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:52.079
<v Speaker 3>heard some situation or some problem and said, oh, you

821
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.239
<v Speaker 3>need to talk to Billy about that. That's my best

822
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:56.000
<v Speaker 3>opportunities ever.

823
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to bring up switch gears here and bring

824
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 1>go back to the whole legacy systems and how do we,

825
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:05.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, handle them without breaking them, how do we

826
00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:08.360
<v Speaker 1>update them? All that I might say something, I might

827
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:13.360
<v Speaker 1>ask a question that's a little controversy. Maybe so, uh,

828
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:20.039
<v Speaker 1>if our legacy systems were built with a micro services architecture,

829
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:26.519
<v Speaker 1>would we necessarily have an easier time replacing just those

830
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:31.360
<v Speaker 1>pieces that need replacing? And if so, is that the

831
00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 1>only benefit to a microservice?

832
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, we might, I guess, but micro services fall into

833
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.639
<v Speaker 3>that category of to me of things people do so

834
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.320
<v Speaker 3>that they don't have to look at the big picture.

835
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

836
00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the future proofing is kind of part of

837
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:52.440
<v Speaker 1>that whole.

838
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:59.599
<v Speaker 3>Well wow, but look, everything in this industry depends upon circumstances.

839
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 3>Some of the places I've gone and done vario sophisticated architecture.

840
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 3>That architecture provided the ability to change things very quickly,

841
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.840
<v Speaker 3>so that, for example, that one of the case studies

842
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:18.199
<v Speaker 3>often talk about is a workflow system throughout an entire

843
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:24.440
<v Speaker 3>organization of a couple hundred people that was taking drug

844
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.559
<v Speaker 3>orders on facts or Internet at one end and shipping

845
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.519
<v Speaker 3>FedEx boxes out the other. Now drugs have some drugs

846
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:33.440
<v Speaker 3>have to be mixed, some just are picked off, some

847
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:38.480
<v Speaker 3>require special approval. There's all kinds of potential steps. So

848
00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 3>now we don't have just a linear workflow. Every order

849
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 3>that comes in could zoom through the organization in a

850
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:49.880
<v Speaker 3>different way. So the generalized architecture said, well, let's generalize

851
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.039
<v Speaker 3>this down, this workflow down to there are work items,

852
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.840
<v Speaker 3>things that need to be worked on. There are cues

853
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:02.000
<v Speaker 3>the computer analog of stacks of items, and there are

854
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 3>rules that route items from one queue to another or

855
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:08.519
<v Speaker 3>tell you when you've got valid data and you're done,

856
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:13.960
<v Speaker 3>et cetera. So the architecture put capabilities for all those

857
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:19.880
<v Speaker 3>things in place, and every existing part of the workflow

858
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.199
<v Speaker 3>was implemented in that architecture. But now they come along

859
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:24.719
<v Speaker 3>next month and say, you know, we need a new workstation.

860
00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:27.320
<v Speaker 3>There's a new condurruct coming out. We got to do

861
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:31.440
<v Speaker 3>something different with it. It's ours to make that happen

862
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:34.880
<v Speaker 3>with that architecture instead of going back and having to

863
00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.159
<v Speaker 3>write a custom module code somewhere that fits in. So

864
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:44.079
<v Speaker 3>architecture itself can facilitate that kind of of.

865
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:46.639
<v Speaker 1>So we ought to be thinking generation when we build

866
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.599
<v Speaker 1>new systems today, about what happens when they become legacy systems.

867
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:52.280
<v Speaker 1>How easy will it need to update them? And I

868
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.159
<v Speaker 1>don't agree that micro services is the answer because we've

869
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:59.400
<v Speaker 1>already been down that road, Richard. Lately, there's been a

870
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:06.320
<v Speaker 1>big back against microservice architecture for the modular monolith, right, But.

871
00:46:06.719 --> 00:46:09.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's there's a universality here. Like it,

872
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:12.159
<v Speaker 2>there's no universal solution, right. The best argument I've ever

873
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:15.519
<v Speaker 2>heard of microservices is you have a large team and

874
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:19.079
<v Speaker 2>you need to granularize the workload so that everybody's productive.

875
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:21.800
<v Speaker 2>But if you don't have a large team, it's a

876
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of ceremony. It's a really good point, Richard.

877
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.440
<v Speaker 1>So let's go back to dot Net framework on Windows,

878
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:31.519
<v Speaker 1>which have the ability to update assemblies in place. Once

879
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:33.119
<v Speaker 1>we got to dot Net Core, we don't have that

880
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:37.360
<v Speaker 1>ability because that's a Windows feature, right, So a sp

881
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:40.599
<v Speaker 1>net Core you can't, like you could do with sp

882
00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:44.599
<v Speaker 1>Net on dot Net framework, take a DLL, copy it

883
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:48.000
<v Speaker 1>to the working directory and just have it come up

884
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:51.519
<v Speaker 1>like there's no none of that shadowing and all of

885
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:56.400
<v Speaker 1>that stuff that Windows has. However, I have a Blazer

886
00:46:56.559 --> 00:47:00.719
<v Speaker 1>architecture that I've figured out where if you use Razor

887
00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:05.559
<v Speaker 1>class libraries as the boundaries of your Blaser application, whether

888
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:08.679
<v Speaker 1>they're pages or sets of pages or components or whatever,

889
00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:13.280
<v Speaker 1>those Razor class libraries can be swapped out at runtime

890
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:17.639
<v Speaker 1>with a tool that is part of my architecture, and

891
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:19.800
<v Speaker 1>that is a really good way to think about it.

892
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Into future proof is a really kind of a terrible word,

893
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.119
<v Speaker 1>isn't that. I mean, there's no such thing. But it

894
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:32.960
<v Speaker 1>can mitigate the problems when you need to update, you know,

895
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.320
<v Speaker 1>one piece of your application and you don't want the

896
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:37.639
<v Speaker 1>whole thing to go down and you don't want all

897
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.199
<v Speaker 1>of your users to be interrupted.

898
00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:42.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, call it. Call it future friendly. Yeah, future friendly,

899
00:47:43.159 --> 00:47:47.719
<v Speaker 3>because yeah, you can't. It is not economically or even

900
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:51.559
<v Speaker 3>necessarily cognitively possible to future proof.

901
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:55.000
<v Speaker 2>To take into account way is that the whole yagny line,

902
00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:56.119
<v Speaker 2>like you're going to need.

903
00:47:56.039 --> 00:47:58.400
<v Speaker 3>It so that you certainly can't get into that. On

904
00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:01.639
<v Speaker 3>the other hand, at the other end, what people don't

905
00:48:01.639 --> 00:48:04.519
<v Speaker 3>seem to be able to do is do any significant

906
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:08.239
<v Speaker 3>level of abstraction if everything is just a piece in

907
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.920
<v Speaker 3>and of itself and they don't see the commonality between

908
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 3>the pieces. So you have to do that abstraction to

909
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.880
<v Speaker 3>do effective architecture. Yes, and I will tell you that

910
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:22.440
<v Speaker 3>number one we that's caught partially because of the agile thing.

911
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:26.920
<v Speaker 3>We don't promote people doing abstraction. They're working on individual pieces,

912
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 3>and we don't really push them young early in their

913
00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:34.039
<v Speaker 3>career to develop some of those abstraction skills to think

914
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.079
<v Speaker 3>about things. And we should, yeah, we should, We absolutely should,

915
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:42.199
<v Speaker 3>because you can't do effective architecture without considerable abstraction exactly.

916
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

917
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:46.320
<v Speaker 1>And if that just means interfaces, yeah, then that's what

918
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 1>it means. But multiple layers of abstraction have their benefits,

919
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.719
<v Speaker 1>but they can also make things more complex.

920
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 3>They can. It's that's I think that's the problem is

921
00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Speaker 3>that architecture is a craft, a discipline that takes years

922
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:03.400
<v Speaker 3>to develop. It isn't don't give somebody just stick architect

923
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:05.639
<v Speaker 3>in their title and expect them to go do some

924
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.920
<v Speaker 3>architecture now. It's it takes time to form that skill

925
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:13.280
<v Speaker 3>set and to be disciplined about it because a lot

926
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.760
<v Speaker 3>of what you're doing is balancing. Architecture is always a

927
00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 3>balancing act. I mean, for example, one of pre eminent

928
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:24.320
<v Speaker 3>people in the industry on architectures is uvall Oi good

929
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:29.239
<v Speaker 3>good friend, and I think he's got a terrific uh

930
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.320
<v Speaker 3>way of looking at architecture at the enterprise level that

931
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:36.760
<v Speaker 3>he works at. And of course, if you add all

932
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.360
<v Speaker 3>guys want to hear yourself get chewed out. Just go

933
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:42.719
<v Speaker 3>listen to you volved. Sometimes he'll do it, but will

934
00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.079
<v Speaker 3>But what I see is that, Yeah, but what I

935
00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.519
<v Speaker 3>see is that if you go down the chain far enough,

936
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 3>then some of the ways that you've all would like

937
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.079
<v Speaker 3>to do things don't apply at that bottom end, because

938
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.639
<v Speaker 3>he's really optimized for the enterprise way of doing things.

939
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.559
<v Speaker 3>And so you have to have that s It's ability,

940
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 3>that balance to take circumstances in size and scale and

941
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.400
<v Speaker 3>do account in order to do it. And we just

942
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.079
<v Speaker 3>don't have enough people that ever learned to do that.

943
00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:11.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

944
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, it takes judgment, and judgment comes with experience, and.

945
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:17.599
<v Speaker 2>Experience comes from massive failures.

946
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:21.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but that brings us, that brings us to our

947
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:25.000
<v Speaker 1>favorite topic, Richard, which is large language models. And how

948
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:27.920
<v Speaker 1>I say that totally tongue in cheek because we're so

949
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:32.159
<v Speaker 1>tired of talking about him. However, when you have a legacy,

950
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:34.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, part of the problem with legacy applications they

951
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:37.559
<v Speaker 1>were written by people who are long gone or maybe

952
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:38.920
<v Speaker 1>long gone or on their way out.

953
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:41.039
<v Speaker 2>I think that's another one of the another one of

954
00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:42.920
<v Speaker 2>the aspects of what makes a legacy app. It's like

955
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.599
<v Speaker 2>the team that built this isn't there anymore exactly.

956
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:48.519
<v Speaker 1>We have the source code, but it's written in whatever

957
00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, visual Basic six.

958
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I've also I've run in these situations where

959
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's not compilable, Like we don't have a compilable

960
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:58.000
<v Speaker 2>environment the moment.

961
00:50:57.920 --> 00:50:59.960
<v Speaker 3>We don't have all the dependencies for whatever it is.

962
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:02.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so that could be a place where a large

963
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:07.679
<v Speaker 1>language model could be agents or whatever could help people

964
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:11.000
<v Speaker 1>who have at least the closest knowledge set to what

965
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:15.800
<v Speaker 1>these people were doing, go ahead and improve it, upgrade it,

966
00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:19.599
<v Speaker 1>at least get it compiled, maybe upgraded that kind of thing.

967
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:20.840
<v Speaker 2>What do you think about that?

968
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.280
<v Speaker 3>I think it'd be great, but i'd have to see

969
00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:24.599
<v Speaker 3>it work for I believe it could do that.

970
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:26.719
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Yeah, I think it's fair, and it's yeah, it's

971
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:29.400
<v Speaker 2>totally fair. Certainly. Something we're pursuing on the show is

972
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:32.880
<v Speaker 2>find people having success with these tools. I want real

973
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:37.519
<v Speaker 2>projects fixed. I'm finding some folks having great success in

974
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the green field space. I would love to find someone

975
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:44.239
<v Speaker 2>who's really knocked it out of the park on an

976
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:49.000
<v Speaker 2>existing application, a brown field refit using these kinds of tools.

977
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:50.320
<v Speaker 2>I just haven't found it yet. It doesn't mean it

978
00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:51.719
<v Speaker 2>doesn't exist. I keep looking.

979
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, the GitHub copilot agent seems to do a

980
00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:58.159
<v Speaker 1>good job of small tasks. And by the way, if

981
00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.679
<v Speaker 1>anybody saw my Blazer train on that, I have since

982
00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.840
<v Speaker 1>changed my philosophy from write one huge prompt that does

983
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:07.239
<v Speaker 1>a lot of things to you know, take it in

984
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:11.000
<v Speaker 1>smaller bites. Just it's a lot easier to fix when

985
00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:14.320
<v Speaker 1>things go wrong. But anyway, I think that that tool

986
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:16.840
<v Speaker 1>works really well. You know, if you give it a

987
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:18.960
<v Speaker 1>small task and it goes off and does it and

988
00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.239
<v Speaker 1>comes back with a with a commit, and you can

989
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:24.320
<v Speaker 1>check it out and try it and test it and

990
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:27.519
<v Speaker 1>if it works good, it's really good for you know,

991
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:32.599
<v Speaker 1>upgrading things and doing things differently. But your results may vary.

992
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.079
<v Speaker 1>And since it's nondeterministic, you know what, the results I

993
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.880
<v Speaker 1>get might not be the results you get here. Results

994
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:44.760
<v Speaker 1>may very prompt to prompt. Yeah, that's absolutely true. How

995
00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 1>about your results will vary definitely.

996
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:53.599
<v Speaker 3>That's the non deterministic part is the scariest part for sure. Yeah,

997
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Because look, I learned to write code in nineteen seventy three,

998
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.519
<v Speaker 3>and the first time from money in nineteen seventy eight

999
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:05.000
<v Speaker 3>And for the entirety of that time, up until very recently,

1000
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:10.239
<v Speaker 3>coding was a deterministic thing. Yeah, and compiling was deterministic,

1001
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:14.079
<v Speaker 3>and running was deterministic. And so my entire brain is

1002
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:17.840
<v Speaker 3>trying to expect a certain amount of determinism and it

1003
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:20.599
<v Speaker 3>rebels at the idea that, well might not be the

1004
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.159
<v Speaker 3>same this time, and you just have to be relaxed

1005
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:25.880
<v Speaker 3>about that. Well, I haven't learned to be relaxed about

1006
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:26.400
<v Speaker 3>it yet.

1007
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:29.360
<v Speaker 1>So I think the first generation was you're a surgeon, Right,

1008
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:32.599
<v Speaker 1>you're a DOS programmer or whatever. Before Windows, you set

1009
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.320
<v Speaker 1>a breakpoint. You have control of that entire machine at

1010
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:38.480
<v Speaker 1>that breakpoint. Right, you're a surgeon. You go in and

1011
00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:40.800
<v Speaker 1>tell it exactly what you want. It does exactly what

1012
00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:43.159
<v Speaker 1>you tell it to do. And Bob's your uncle. Windows

1013
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:46.719
<v Speaker 1>comes along, and now you have asynchronous, right, And that's

1014
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:50.320
<v Speaker 1>the second generation. Yeah, asynchronous is like, no, you're more

1015
00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:54.800
<v Speaker 1>like a psychologist. You have a conversation. Yeah, you know,

1016
00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:57.719
<v Speaker 1>you make a suggestion, you observe the behavior.

1017
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:57.440
<v Speaker 3>You.

1018
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:01.519
<v Speaker 2>Tweak a few things, but it'll be clear. Like we've

1019
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:03.719
<v Speaker 2>been living with non and Himany's behavior and computing for

1020
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:05.480
<v Speaker 2>a long time. Have you ever been on the Internet.

1021
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:09.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, yeah, but then every packet could travel through

1022
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.280
<v Speaker 2>a different route between a certain word client and the workstation.

1023
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.880
<v Speaker 1>That's true in terms of certainly in terms of performance.

1024
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, and yeah, you just don't know.

1025
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Then comes along llms with nondeterminism on top of asynchrony

1026
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:30.119
<v Speaker 1>and the Internet and all of that stuff, and geez, wow,

1027
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:31.480
<v Speaker 1>it's a little different.

1028
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm in the enviable position of not having to worry

1029
00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:38.480
<v Speaker 3>very much about that because I don't expect ever to

1030
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:44.480
<v Speaker 3>personally hands on do a large production system. Again, I've

1031
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:47.920
<v Speaker 3>done many over the years. Semi retired at this point.

1032
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:54.519
<v Speaker 3>And the part that the thing about it is coding

1033
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:58.559
<v Speaker 3>requires a certain set of capabilities a lot of people

1034
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:00.199
<v Speaker 3>don't have. And I had it one time, and I

1035
00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:02.079
<v Speaker 3>guess I still have. I just don't have them for

1036
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.400
<v Speaker 3>as long as I used to. I can't focus and

1037
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:08.199
<v Speaker 3>and and do that at the intensity that I once did.

1038
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 3>On the other hand, design oriented tasks in software, you

1039
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.599
<v Speaker 3>actually get better at that as you get over because

1040
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:18.239
<v Speaker 3>you've seen more, you've seen more examples, and you have

1041
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:20.119
<v Speaker 3>a bigger pool of things drawn.

1042
00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:25.199
<v Speaker 1>So I you saw the gorilla playing basketball, Yeah, so

1043
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:26.559
<v Speaker 1>you know he's there.

1044
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:31.320
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, so I've got all those examples and concepts

1045
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.360
<v Speaker 3>to work with. So so now I've focused my time

1046
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.920
<v Speaker 3>more on that than I do. I still write prototypes

1047
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.119
<v Speaker 3>and things like that, but I don't I don't write rutch.

1048
00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:42.639
<v Speaker 3>I don't really write production code much anymore. I might

1049
00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:46.920
<v Speaker 3>write a little proof of concept for some some complex

1050
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.159
<v Speaker 3>thing that somebody else doesn't really understand how to do.

1051
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:51.480
<v Speaker 3>I might, I might, I might do that. But that's

1052
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.800
<v Speaker 3>about the limit of my coding at this point. So

1053
00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.960
<v Speaker 3>I get to be fairly relaxed about about these changes

1054
00:55:57.039 --> 00:55:57.559
<v Speaker 3>pretty good.

1055
00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I got to tell you on the over on the inside,

1056
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:03.199
<v Speaker 2>them run as radio. Like the feedback I'm getting from

1057
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:06.039
<v Speaker 2>some folks where we're talking about using tools like copile

1058
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:08.719
<v Speaker 2>to help you right PowerShell and starting to manage it

1059
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:11.679
<v Speaker 2>that way, and they're criticizing it. I'm like, you know,

1060
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:13.960
<v Speaker 2>when you say that, you should shake your fist at

1061
00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the sky. It fits together very nicely. But yeah, we're

1062
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.039
<v Speaker 2>still in early days. But these tools are interesting.

1063
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:27.239
<v Speaker 1>They are interesting. Yeah, just don't get so freaked out

1064
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:28.760
<v Speaker 1>about it. Anything gonna happen.

1065
00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not going to deny there's a hype cycle

1066
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:33.239
<v Speaker 2>going on, because there is.

1067
00:56:33.360 --> 00:56:36.239
<v Speaker 3>And because of that HiPE cycle I have made fun of,

1068
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:37.960
<v Speaker 3>like Vibe coding, for example.

1069
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's infinitely funnable.

1070
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:44.639
<v Speaker 3>It is. It is mockable. It is extremely mockable. I

1071
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:46.559
<v Speaker 3>had an idea this week. I was thinking about see

1072
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:48.199
<v Speaker 3>what you guys think about I was thinking about writing

1073
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:51.880
<v Speaker 3>a humor article about a transcript of a show on

1074
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:52.840
<v Speaker 3>Vibe cooking.

1075
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:55.599
<v Speaker 1>You know you should get you ot GPT to help

1076
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:56.039
<v Speaker 1>you write that.

1077
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean a every comedy thing you want, right, Billy,

1078
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:04.119
<v Speaker 2>is something I want to read it. But no, I

1079
00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:06.280
<v Speaker 2>like your Vibe coking idea because I think it ends

1080
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:08.480
<v Speaker 2>in a fireball, which I be awesome.

1081
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:10.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you could see that it's it's not going to

1082
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.559
<v Speaker 3>go well and going wrong. And then and then I.

1083
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Thought I would deep frying seems like when we had

1084
00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:17.920
<v Speaker 1>a little turmeric and see what happens.

1085
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:20.159
<v Speaker 3>And then I thought, at the very end it would

1086
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.599
<v Speaker 3>be stay tuned for the next. The next on this

1087
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:27.639
<v Speaker 3>channel an episode of Vibe Child Rearing.

1088
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:34.599
<v Speaker 1>Subscribe to my channel for more helpful hands. Oh, Billy,

1089
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:37.159
<v Speaker 1>it's been an absolute delight having you on the show again.

1090
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:42.199
<v Speaker 1>And do we know how many times you've been on Richard?

1091
00:57:42.280 --> 00:57:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Do you have account like.

1092
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:45.559
<v Speaker 3>I said, it's in the mid twenties summer.

1093
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I think somewhere in the twenties. He's, you know, at

1094
00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:50.199
<v Speaker 2>the near the top, if not the top. But I

1095
00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:52.719
<v Speaker 2>think the bigger one is a single digit show, a

1096
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:55.239
<v Speaker 2>couple of visual digit shows, a whole bunch of three

1097
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:58.000
<v Speaker 2>digit shows, and a ridiculous number of four digits.

1098
00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:02.000
<v Speaker 3>And I'm really proud Carl the fact that the inspiration

1099
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:05.000
<v Speaker 3>to get started on this was you listening to me

1100
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:08.920
<v Speaker 3>and Rocky and I talk about something and speakers and

1101
00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:11.039
<v Speaker 3>the speakers he thought, you know, these people have stuff

1102
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:13.679
<v Speaker 3>to say that other people are to hear. And absolutely

1103
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:16.840
<v Speaker 3>I really like having kind of so in that sense,

1104
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:19.800
<v Speaker 3>I've been on dot net rocks since the inception of

1105
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:21.320
<v Speaker 3>the idea you have.

1106
00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:26.639
<v Speaker 1>Indeed, yeah, you predate the inception certainly before the word podcast.

1107
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know. I think the other one that I

1108
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.960
<v Speaker 2>like about your story on dot net Rocks, Billy, is

1109
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:38.000
<v Speaker 2>your transformations there too. Yeah I remember design taking you over.

1110
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:43.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Well, partially it is because I've always kind of

1111
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:46.440
<v Speaker 3>had some affinity but nobody cared, and now they started

1112
00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:49.039
<v Speaker 3>to care and like the twenty ten times, and I

1113
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:53.000
<v Speaker 3>do enjoy it. And also partially because in the Microsoft space.

1114
00:58:53.199 --> 00:58:56.840
<v Speaker 3>You go back to like twenty ten, there's nobody, nobody

1115
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:58.079
<v Speaker 3>who's focusing on you.

1116
00:58:58.119 --> 00:59:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Actually, we said embrace of zam that I think sort

1117
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.400
<v Speaker 2>of because nobody else was doing it. They're such a contrarian.

1118
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:08.320
<v Speaker 3>Everybody that picked up Zamble was just like spoofing whatever

1119
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:09.159
<v Speaker 3>they'd done.

1120
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.199
<v Speaker 2>Before, and you know, whatever before.

1121
00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:14.159
<v Speaker 3>And I'm pretty proud of the fact that that that

1122
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.199
<v Speaker 3>me and the team that we worked with on early

1123
00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:19.880
<v Speaker 3>Examal projects, we were determined we were going to make

1124
00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:22.559
<v Speaker 3>Examble do things that people had never seen before.

1125
00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:26.760
<v Speaker 2>I remember talking to one of the pms of Zamal

1126
00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:30.480
<v Speaker 2>talking about his problem with finding concrete examples, like do

1127
00:59:30.519 --> 00:59:33.639
<v Speaker 2>you not know who Billy Hollis is? Are you crazy? Like,

1128
00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:37.000
<v Speaker 2>let me connect you to It'll be a long conversation.

1129
00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I get clear your calendar.

1130
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:43.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well fantastic. I hope this is not the last

1131
00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:44.639
<v Speaker 1>we've heard of you, mister Hollis.

1132
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I've still got I've still got some time. I

1133
00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:50.199
<v Speaker 3>just not as much of it. I think I'm mentioning

1134
00:59:50.239 --> 00:59:51.880
<v Speaker 3>this on the last show, so I will I will

1135
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:56.800
<v Speaker 3>remind people are still listening. You know, the people on

1136
00:59:56.840 --> 00:59:59.119
<v Speaker 3>your show do stuff. I mean they can call us

1137
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:02.519
<v Speaker 3>and get us to do Yeah, but your window of

1138
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:05.920
<v Speaker 3>opportunity for me in particular is starting to close. So

1139
01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:08.280
<v Speaker 3>if you got something you want me to be involved

1140
01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:10.280
<v Speaker 3>in at your company, I'm happy to talk to you,

1141
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:12.599
<v Speaker 3>but two years from now I might not be well.

1142
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.880
<v Speaker 1>And likewise, if you've got a new rant, you call us.

1143
01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:18.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, okay, So it's one single digit, two double digits

1144
01:00:18.679 --> 01:00:26.519
<v Speaker 2>including panels, ten triples and ten fours. Well now eleven, wow, yeah, wow, jeez, excellent.

1145
01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:30.119
<v Speaker 1>All right, sir, we'll see you, thanks again, Thank you, gentlemen.

1146
01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.519
<v Speaker 1>All right, and we'll talk to you next time on

1147
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:56.760
<v Speaker 1>dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you

1148
01:00:56.800 --> 01:01:00.840
<v Speaker 1>by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full

1149
01:01:00.880 --> 01:01:05.079
<v Speaker 1>service audio, video and post production facility located physically in

1150
01:01:05.159 --> 01:01:08.880
<v Speaker 1>New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online

1151
01:01:08.920 --> 01:01:12.800
<v Speaker 1>at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O

1152
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:15.039
<v Speaker 1>T N E t R O c k S dot

1153
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:20.360
<v Speaker 1>com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access

1154
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.239
<v Speaker 1>to the full archives going back to show number one,

1155
01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:26.559
<v Speaker 1>recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure

1156
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:29.199
<v Speaker 1>you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business

1157
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:33.079
<v Speaker 1>now go write some code. See you next time you

1158
01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:36.400
<v Speaker 1>got Jack middle vans acc