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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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no ads?

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Speaker 2: Easy?

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Speaker 1: Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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get access to a private RSS feed where all the

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shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get

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you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug.

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Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com.

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Hey guess what it's dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin,

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an amateurd Kembell. We're here with Reverend Billy. He'll be

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joining us shortly.

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Speaker 2: Show number three. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Three's kind of been around since the beginning of dot net.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a one digit, two digit, three digit, four digit

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kind of guy.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, just real quick, how's everything up in Canadia?

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Speaker 2: You know, we're doing just fine. That's good. Still summertimes warm,

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it's nice. I will I think when this shows comes out.

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I've just gotten back from a cruise to Alaska for

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our friend's fiftieth.

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Speaker 1: Awesome and Canadians are still polite no matter what anybody says.

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We are, you know, still very smart. And you know

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they still trap beavers yeah make maple yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but we release them. You know, there is a

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guy in Quebec called the beaver Whisperer.

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Speaker 1: I don't this completely fits yes in my mental model.

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Speaker 2: No, you know, he's figured out how to manipulate beavers

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to get them to build the dams where you wanted

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to build them. So it's actually beneficial. Oh that's awesome. Yeah,

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we just had a problem with aa a beaver up

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the road here, and they literally changed the water structure

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so that it doesn't make water flowing noises because that's

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what beavers don't like. It's called a laminar flow inlet.

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So because does make any sound, the beaver's leave it

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alone happens to be good for you too. Well, yeah,

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because it doesn't flow thea anymore, which I think is

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a feature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good feature. Okay, let's roll into better

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know a framework. So crazy music, queue it up, punch it.

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Speaker 2: What do you go now?

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Speaker 1: I gotta preface this by saying I have not used it,

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but somebody mentioned on Reddit a GitHub repo called blazer

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dot input chips and it's got some good traction.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so it's an input control for editing a collection

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of chips or otherwise known as tag values. Okay, and

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since this is nineteen sixty two, we'll go to nineteen

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sixty two dot pop, dot me, and then we'll go

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right to this Blazer dot input chips and you can

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see kind of a demo of where you add a

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tag with a textbox and then you get the little

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buttons with the X you know, with the tags, and

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then with the X next to them, so you can.

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Speaker 2: And what are the tag values for?

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're tagging, let's say, an entry into you know,

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or review or putting up some media content and you

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want to tag it, you know, like dot net rocks.

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We have tags in dot net rocks, right, sure, So

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I actually thought we might.

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Speaker 2: Use this.

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Speaker 1: As a as a as a way to add tags.

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I mean, we already do it because we have a

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list of tags and we can do it.

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Speaker 2: Fine, but that's convenient. Aren't the tags also used for

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things like accessibility and stuff or this identifies it for

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rather input sources that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's metadata, right, It's just data that you associate

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with some other data. So making it easier to put

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the right mentadata on Blazer.

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Speaker 2: I like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it looks like just you know, it's a

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simple little thing. It doesn't it's not complicated, and it

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just looks like somebody's you know, first Blazer project is

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what it looks like.

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Speaker 2: But it's cool. I like it. Yeah, no, that spark,

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I like, yeah, good.

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Speaker 1: All right, So who's talking to us today, Richard?

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Speaker 2: I grabbed a comment off of Billy's last show and

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that was nineteen fifteen, which we did back in Stember

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of twenty twenty four called it making design pay and

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one of our regulars and long time. Actually somebody I

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think I owe an email. Tony Vergouli wrote this a

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little bit long comment, but it's worth reading, and I

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think it was a reference to something Billy said at

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the end of the show, which was I can't believe

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you guys still listen to me, and so there's no

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way I can get tired to listen to you, Billy.

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I routinely direct developers to your talks for them to

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get to think about design, because when I think about design,

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a lot of the times I think about user experience

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and usability. This is probably because it's my first job.

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I was put in front of clients and I would

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hear the pain points similar to what Carl brought up

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about buttons and where items are placed. Then, as I

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heard your talks and the images that you would share

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about not well thought out designs, I grew to understand

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design was not just about the screen, but also included

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user experience, and I appreciate you think about the overall

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design and experience. Visual designers purely about designing the screen

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and not being able to help with any of the

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UI code, CSS now or whatever, and I have butted

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heads over the years. I'm working with one now who

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created a design for a web based training light app.

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His design was pixel perfect and specific to the device,

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which happened to be a surface studio too at one

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hundred percent scaling, and had a lot of empty space

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around the video player, and the buttons had moving accents

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crying look at me. When I questioned and pushed for

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this to be a responsive app, he told me not

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to spend time addressing something for the future, and the

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clients said they were running it on these devices in

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the lapp. After delivering the app to the client, Oh

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that's the best lie ever, isn't it. After delivering the

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app to the client, the client commented that the about

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the massive amount of empty space that was their term

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needing to zoom the browser to fifty percent because the

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default scale in the Surface Studio two is two hundred percent,

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and that the app was not responsive to run on

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the employee's devices remotely. Obviously, there was a failure to

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understand their needs. However, there's also failure of the visual

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designer to create a design specific to the device. This

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may have been because the previous apps he designed were

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for a specific Kioscar trade show device. To me, this

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type of design feels like static designs use on boxes

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or billboards versus business web apps. Designer in question only

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knows how to use Figma and Zeppelin, and that designer

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is all about visual, which is unfortunate. They do not

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want to hear feedback from the team. The design tool

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does not matter to me, but I liked having sketchy

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tools best at client meetings. So they are not critiquing

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the color and more focus on the flow and the experience. Yep,

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any design tool is fine as long as their collaboration.

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I appreciate your thinking and sharing. I hope to see

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you in Philly again and have a relaxed with a

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glass of sweet tea. I'm also hoping that Carl and

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Richard will visit Philly again. Probably not a road show

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because let's face it, we're getting too old for that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I it's on my bucket list because I want to

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go down. I love Philly just as a place to

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hang out. And also my friend Jeff Fritz lives down there,

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so Jeff's down there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on my list. Let's figure that out and

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I'll fly out as well, and we'll see how much

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trouble we can get into. That would be fun. Yeah, Tony,

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we owe you what you've done great things for us

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over the years, so you should call in that favor

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and we'll figure that out. And thanks so much for

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your comment. And a copy of music Cooba is on

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its way to you. And if you'd like a copy

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of music, go buy I rite a comment on the

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website at donnetrons dot com or on the facebooks. We

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publish every show there, and if you comment there and

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we'll read it on the show, we'll send you a

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copy of music.

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Speaker 1: To Kobar and he's talking about music to code by

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this is a library of music, twenty five minute tracks

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that I wrote many many years ago and I still

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can contribute to. There's twenty two tracks right now. And

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you can get the entire collection at music toocode by

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dot net in MP three flakand wave format. What happened

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in nineteen sixty two, Oh nothing, just this little thing

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called the Cuban missile crisis.

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Speaker 2: Little thing, just a little thing closest I think we

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ever came to nuclear.

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Speaker 1: Closest we ever came to nuclear war with the you know,

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possible exception of now, no, no, not no, This was

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way more dangerous. This was way more dangerous, yes, Khrush

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chef and we basically had brought a blockade around Cuba.

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We saw some missiles and silos there. We said remove them.

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They said no, and you know, hilarity ensued, and we

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basically came face to face with their ships and you know,

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cooler heads.

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Speaker 2: There was a moment where a missile armed submarine of

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the Soviet Union was headed towards Cuba. It was about

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to interceed on the blockade, and then they blinked and

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turned around. Yeah, thank god. It was an air thing,

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without a doubt. Terrible.

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Speaker 1: Well, other things happened too, Okay, So that started a

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USM bargo against Cuba, and so John Glenn, Yeah, February twentieth,

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first American to orbit the Earth aboard Friendship seven.

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Speaker 2: Later that year, Carpenter also, yeah, well that started it off.

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I guess that was the first American in orbit. Yeah.

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Marily Monroe died in August fifth. If you don't know

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who she is, just google her. I might want to

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put it in safe mode though. Sixty two feet a

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World Cup held in Chili. Brazil won the tournament, solidifying

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its status and international futbol. You got some more stuff there,

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a little more space. This was the beginning of the

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Mariner series of the space of florers. The two of

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them flew in nineteen sixty two, the very first one

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Mariner one who which promptly exploded and fell into the ocean,

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and the second one that was in July. In August,

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they flew Mariner two, same kind of satellite, same rocket,

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but this one made it into orbit and by December

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made the first fly by a Venus, the first time

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humans had ever sent a piece of their machinery to

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another planet.

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Speaker 1: Right, and after studying Venus, everybody said, ouch, I'm not

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going there.

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Speaker 2: No, not a hostile. It's a little nasty. Don't at nasty.

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Although there's an interesting idea about building cloud cities around Venus.

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There's a point in altitude's about seventy five kilometers up

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where it's one atmosphere of pressure, although not breatheable, lots

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of solar at about one G. You know, it'd be

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the most comfortable environment you could live in. And because

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the atmosphere is so dense, you could literally fill a

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big balloon with air and it would float on it. Wow,

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and you could breathe it. And if you tore a

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hole in it, it would it wouldn't blow out, it

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would just slowly leak anyway.

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Speaker 1: So one G means the same amount of gravity. We

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enjoy the same amount of gravity. Yeah, so it wouldn't

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mess with us. No, we'd be pretty comfortable except for

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the except if that atmosphere leaked up in there, that

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would be.

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Speaker 2: The whole floating, you know, on top of a pile

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of sulfur cacid is you know, Yeah, I'm not sure

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I like that anyway. Let me give you a little

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computer history.

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Speaker 1: And then we discovered that it rains up instead of down,

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right right, So go ahead.

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Speaker 2: Computer history. There is a computer called the link computer

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l I n C stating for a laboratory instrument computer,

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which is arguably the first PC ever made. It was

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designed at MIT and built by Deck. There was only

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fifty of them made. It had twelve bit words and

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the original model had oneenty twenty four words. Later was

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upgraded to twenty and forty eight of fully words and

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it was made for transistors, so that's why it was

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relatively compact. It was two units that were three foot

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tall and twenty inches wide. You could stack them one

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on top of your other if you want a six

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foot tall computer, or you know, go wider about for

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three and a half feet wide. The units typically had

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two tape drives, a display, control console, and a keyboard.

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There were about forty thousand US dollars in nineteen sixty two.

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Wow Jeez. Famously a lady by the name of Mary

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Allen Wilkes who was one of the very early programmers

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in the fifties working at it, initially on IBM computers,

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but she helped the original designer of link Fellow by

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the name of Leslie Clark on this design. She wrote

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the operating manuals and later wrote an operating system for it,

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and has the best quotes ever. The first quote was

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because she took one of these things home Wow. So

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she was able to say before anybody else, I'll bet

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you don't have a computer in your living room. And

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my favorite quote of them all in thinking back about programming,

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she said, we had this quaint notion at the time

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that software should be completely, absolutely free of bugs. Unfortunately,

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it's a notion that never really quite caught on.

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Speaker 1: It was Doug Crockford's say at the end of his talks,

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don't write bugs.

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Speaker 2: This advice, Thanks Doug. One other mit deck collaboration from

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nineteen sixty two. The previous year, in sixty one, Deck

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sent a PDP one to MIT and in nineteen sixty

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two a group of developers wrote a video game on

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it called Space War Space War. Yeah. Yeah, so that's

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also nineteen sixty two.

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Speaker 1: Wow. All right, Well, I guess it's time then to

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welcome Reverend Billy back to dot net rocks for the

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umpteenth fifty million times, fifty eleventh time, or how do

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you say that in this sound fifty eleventh for eleventh time.

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Billy hollis, if you don't know, as a software designer

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and developer with a contrarian streak that often challenges conventional

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wisdom in the industry. He has a consulting practice in Nashville, Tennessee,

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and he and his team focus on User experience design UX,

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Advanced user interface development, rules based architectures, and healthcare systems.

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He teaches classes for design thinking in UX design and

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technical classes on ZAMO for when UI xamble for WPF

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is when UI still a thing, there's that an old bio,

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it is still a thing. Well, welcome Billy, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's always always a pleasure, guys. And you know,

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as as I said in the last and that comment

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from Conny, which I genuinely appreciate, he's he and I

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have talked many times over the years. I do kind

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of wonder why people continue to want to listen.

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Speaker 2: But then I thought about it.

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Speaker 3: I went, I went back, and I'll listened to the

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last podcast, and actually there was a lot of interesting

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new stuff in it, and I think that we continue.

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It's about a year between codcasts basically, and with that

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amount of time, there's always something new happening. I'm I'm

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poking my fingers into something new so well.

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Speaker 2: And I also find like I pay attention to what

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sessions you're writing too, and your current thing is often

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reflected in that like, you take feedback of your experiences

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and you try and teach the new ways you're thinking

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that you're that you find emerging from the work you're doing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, since we do projects, real projects, and not only

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real projects, but you also get a sense of thinking

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and what's important and what people are grappling with when

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you talk to people at conferences, and I do. I

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talked to quite a lot of them, and that gives

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you kind of a statistical sample that you can draw

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some conclusions on about what the general community finds to

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be interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, our listeners have used to fact that a dot

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net Rocks episode goes way beyond the title in terms

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of topics. We use that as jumping off point and

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then talk about the other things that brings to mind.

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We've always done that, so it's always good talking to you, sir.

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Speaker 3: And the legacy apps thing came about from a request

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actually from someone because I do these lunch and learn

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type things for companies.

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Speaker 2: Virtually.

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Speaker 3: That's a fairly new thing because only in the last

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few years have people had the infrastructure available typically to

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do that. And so I have a list of topics

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that I do for people. They just call me up

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and I do it. That's kind of our substitute for

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sales because we don't do sales for consulting. So that's

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a way of letting people get familiar with what we do, right.

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And one company said, you know, we'd like to have

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you do that, but you talk a lot about all

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these new systems that that you design and create, and

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we're not going to be able to do that for

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a long time. We've got this legacy app, we got

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millions of dollars in it. Can you help us understand

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a little bit about what we might do, how we

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might apply some of the stuff you know for the

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legacy world. And I drew up a session based on

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that and started doing any conferences and it has been

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popular because, let's face it, a lot of people have

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those legacy apps. They have a huge amount of investment

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in them. Plus the fact that legacy apps are risky

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to replace if you're talking about a complete replacement.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to cure your definition of a legacy app.

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I have my own, but it's probably the same as yours,

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but let's hear yours.

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Speaker 3: A legacy app to me is something that has that

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has been built with less than the modern leading edge

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technologies and has typically been around for ten years or more,

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sometimes up to twenty five or thirty years, and it's working.

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Speaker 1: And it's working, right, It's not like it's not a pejorative.

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This is making money for us, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It is not. The business depends upon this application. In

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almost all cases, that application, if it were gone or

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you tried to replace it and you failed, that would

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have an existential consequence for the business. So all these

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are very very important, a lot of money in them

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and a lot of risk. And I know plenty of

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examples of companies that have tried to replace legacy apps

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and have have hit that failure point. I mean, even

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Windows eight, as far as I'm concerned, is in that category.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, they tried to completely rethink a legacy application, well

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a legacy operating system in this case, and completely failed

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at producing something new and lost billions of dollars. Well,

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most companies can't afford to lose that kind of money.

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Speaker 1: Right, So the trick is that you need people on

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staff that can see the problems, whether they're security issues,

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because let's face it, security issues are like the number

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one thing, right. There's an exploit in some DLL that

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somebody was using and you have to patch it, and

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patching it might mean a lot of pain, and it

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might be impossible to patch because of its dependency tree.

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Speaker 3: Well as legacy apps are that there's a very nice

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tension there because it is very high risk in order

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to replace them. If your if your platform becomes obsolete enough,

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or you've run into some of those security holes and

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some of the other things that can go wrong, you

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may eventure, or the business may change in various ways.

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You may eventually get to the point where it's actually

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a mess risk to go ahead and start over that.

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But that's a that's a very tough thing, and most

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businesses will put that off as long as they can.

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Speaker 2: Because well they should. Yeah, high risks or reward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's that to me is one of the

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key things about looking at UX design for legacy apps

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versus looking at UX design to do a completely replacement,

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which we do a lot of. Of course, there are

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people doing it, and if you're going to completely replace,

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why wouldn't you redesign to really make it leading edge?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: You know what's really annoying, Billy is when a perfectly

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find a perfectly good working application on the Internet that

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you're using, like, oh, I don't know, Riverside completely changes

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the way that you flow through your you know, do

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do your thing right. They put more layers in front

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of you that you have to navigate through. Whereas before

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it was one button click you knew exactly where the

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button was. Now there's more layers and for what you know,

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just makes me me angry. Here's another one. The bank

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that we currently use that we have to pay people

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with ACCH you know, direct deposit for those who don't

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know what that is. We have we have to scroll

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through all of this stuff and they did a complete revamp.

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But what they didn't do is fix the problems that

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were already there. They added more problems. Just infuriating.

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Speaker 3: I think that I've I've kind of come to and

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understanding that one of the reasons that that sort of

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thing tends to happen is that software development teams in

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the modern era are focused a lot more on granular

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features than they are on big picture and workflow and

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things like that. And Okay, this is probably going to

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get into ranting territory here, which is go so if

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I should. But one of the reasons why there is

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that focus on granular features. It comes from the widespread

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use of Agile methodologies because they tend to focus on

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features in a very gradual, in a very granular sort

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of way. The typical backlog has a lot of features

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on it, and if somebody on the team goes to

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get something off the backlog and work on they are

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charged with working on that feature and getting that to work.

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And then they just kind of put it on a

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menu or something, or put it on a button somewhere, however,

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and they don't really think about how it fits into

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a bigger context. And you know, I have to give

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the usual disclaimers when I'm suggesting that Agile is less

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than perfect, because there are people out there who will

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who will get upset about that because it's it's it's

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something that they're kind of emotionally attached to. I find

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that's a that's a small minority actually of the people

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who use Agile, but they are a very vocal minority,

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and so I tend to hear from them, and I

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like to emphasize no, for the code centric parts of

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your of your application development, you've got to have something

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to manage it. And we work with lots of clients

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and about two thirds of them use some variation of Agile,

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so I've seen quite a number of them, and certainly

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in terms of getting the feedback, keeping people going, keeping

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from getting blocked, there's some value there for most of

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the people who use it. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.

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And I think one of the big defects is not

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looking at things from the big picture and not drawing back, and.

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Speaker 1: The big picture can change, and it most likely does,

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doesn't it. Like you know, you start off with a

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good UI that where you have everything organized and it's

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perfect the way that you've designed it, and then new

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features coming along and you're not quite sure how to

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get there and how to put them there, and then

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it turns into this much. And I think, without telling

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who it is, one of my customers I recommended you

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because they were looking to do some UX redesign you

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I redesign, and they said they're very happy with the

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stuff that you've done for them so far. But I

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think that might be a good example of that something

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that started out working really really well and then just

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grew and grew and grew, and now they have to

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think about redesigning it. But it's definitely a big picture change,

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isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It is, And you really have to draw back to

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look at things from the big picture to do it.

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And so if you're in the grind of just going

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forward two week sprints, get stuff off the backlogs, try

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to whittle let backlog down. If that's the only thing

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you're thinking about, then you're going to get into that

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kind of a mess. Now, theoretically speaking, there's some project

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manager role that a product manager role that that that

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is supposed to be looking at that and supposed to

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be doing big picture. In my experience, in general, big

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picture thinking ought to be a part of everybody on

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the team because that that person can't know and think

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of everything. So so I hope that that they'll give

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me a little bit of of of looseness on the

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Agile side, that they won't think that I'm trying to

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tell them that that they shouldn't do that, just that

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they need to spend some time thinking about the big picture.

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Because because I run into this whenever I say, look,

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Agile doesn't do this well, one of the common things

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I get in response is well.

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Speaker 2: That's not really agile, yeah right.

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Speaker 3: That, yeah, that's that's that is I think of that

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anyway as an example of the no true Scotsman logical fallacy.

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Speaker 2: You guys know that one.

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Speaker 3: It's like, you know, no true Scotts, no Scotsman puts

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sugar in his porridge.

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Speaker 1: Right, No true Scotsman dips his Scotch eggs and Marl.

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Speaker 3: My cousin Angus likes sugar in his porridge. Yes, but

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no true Scotsman so must not be a true Scotsman

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that that kind of that kind of thinking does not

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get into the the the reality of the fact.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they're right.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: It's an excuse to ignore the facts in front of you.

477
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not on the Council of High holy people

478
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,240
who define what agile is. I'm not in that. Apparently

479
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,640
a lot of people are, but I am not on that,

480
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960
And I don't know. I just know what I see,

481
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960
and I see that if I see teams doing things

482
00:24:53,519 --> 00:24:55,759
the same way a lot of different teams, then I

483
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:57,279
have to presume that that's kind of part of what

484
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,440
agile is. Is that enough for the rant? I guess

485
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,119
we should get back to when we get back to

486
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:02,680
real stuff.

487
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,759
Speaker 2: Slash soapbox. When you're where you're tackling the problem of

488
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:08,519
a legacy rewrite like this. I mean, obviously you're jumping

489
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:11,799
a bunch of versions or jumping into a different stock entirely.

490
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,119
Is this all about initially rendering a ux just sitting

491
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,799
with the people who use the app and say, how

492
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,519
you know, how much of your workflow is based on

493
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:23,200
how this software works versus how much of your workflow

494
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,279
you know, really flows?

495
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:28,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it varies all the way. From man, we're

496
00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:32,079
throwing out everything we've got, including the back end. But

497
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:35,799
more commonly, what I find in general is that companies

498
00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:37,759
have done a pretty good job in the dot neet

499
00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:42,000
era of getting their back end to the point where

500
00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:42,559
it needs to.

501
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: Be, because it costs money, and.

502
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:45,839
Speaker 3: It costs a lot of money if you don't get

503
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:50,119
that right, and it creates problems that are really hard

504
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,000
to work around. So I find that the majority of

505
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,640
the people we go into have done a pretty good

506
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,440
job of getting their back into place. So now they're

507
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,839
replacing the front end, and that makes sense. You think

508
00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:07,759
about all the proliferation by that word always stumbles me up.

509
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:12,799
Do you guys have words like proliferation is one of them?

510
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,160
And another one for me is interoperability, I have to.

511
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,279
Speaker 2: Correct. That's why we always say interopt.

512
00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:25,319
Speaker 3: But the proliferation of different devices and form factors in

513
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,640
many cases pushes people towards new platforms for pushing the

514
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,759
app out because they have to there are people that

515
00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:33,240
they have to have to reach. So that will cause

516
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,440
a really dramatically route of the front end, maybe multiple

517
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,519
front ends. But then there's another layer of Okay, we

518
00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:42,359
got a business app, and you know it's running the

519
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,079
business and it's doing fine, and we know we could

520
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,160
take advantage off some of the modern UI technologies and

521
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,759
we could do better. We could improve this app, but

522
00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,240
they are not at the point where they're ready to

523
00:26:55,279 --> 00:26:58,319
take on the risk of a complete front end replacement.

524
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:02,519
And that's what that's session that we talked about is about.

525
00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:06,319
When you're stuck with this business I shouldn't say stuck

526
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,240
with If you have decided that it's meeting your business

527
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,519
needs in general, that doesn't mean you can't still try

528
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:14,880
to try to improve it because there's a lot of

529
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,039
a lot of latitude to do that.

530
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I got to think of this. If your

531
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,240
app is that critical to the workflow, every minute you

532
00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:27,519
can cut off achieving a task represents significant savings over

533
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:29,720
and over and over again. Every time you can avoid

534
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,519
causing a mistake that happens routinely, they all have big benefits.

535
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,079
Little incremental improvement should have huge benefit.

536
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 3: And that is the two usual metrics you're looking at

537
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:42,680
as a justification for doing it. Is that you're speeding

538
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,839
people up and you're keeping them from making as many mistakes.

539
00:27:46,279 --> 00:27:50,279
And there is a normous room for improvement, partially because

540
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:52,519
of the way we came at building applications in the

541
00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,160
first place. Our first round of automation back in the

542
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,960
eighties and nineties was almost just pure database apps, file

543
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:05,000
maintenance apps. Sure that you are basically using the computer

544
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:10,279
screen as a replacement for paper and folders and such.

545
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,279
And you know, we still see we still see the

546
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:16,799
effects of that today. What I tell people in that session,

547
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,319
one of the things I tell people in that session

548
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,400
is if you look at a business app and you

549
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,799
look at the menu, and you can map the menu

550
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:28,000
of the business app to the database schema, then you

551
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,279
have an enormous room for improving how that app helps

552
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,440
users do their jobs. Because if that's the way it is,

553
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:38,960
the user has got Let's say the user's got like

554
00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:44,960
five five steps in some work task that they've got

555
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,200
to do. If you've got that database style thing, that

556
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,680
probably means they go to four or five different places

557
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,440
in the app to do it. They have to bounce

558
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,400
around in the menus and they have to do this

559
00:28:56,519 --> 00:28:58,880
part of it and then go over to someplace completely

560
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,839
different to do the next thing. Well, from a design perspective,

561
00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:10,440
one of the things we try to do is limit

562
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:15,839
the use of short term memory and limit the use

563
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,079
of attention, because both of those are limited. That's just

564
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,680
built into our heads that we've only got so much.

565
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,319
So if you're having to split your attention between navigating

566
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,160
menus and the actual work task that you're trying to accomplish,

567
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:33,480
that now you're using up your attention. And if you

568
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:35,920
have to track where I am, Oh, did I finish

569
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,880
step three and ready to go over to a different

570
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,720
menu for step four, if you are having to do that,

571
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,200
you are straining your short term memory. And so the

572
00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:49,720
options that the possibilities for doing better are quite dramatic.

573
00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:52,359
And you can speed people up, as Richard said, and

574
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,000
you can prevent errors by keeping people from doing things

575
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:56,279
out of order and stuff like that.

576
00:29:56,319 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: You know, one of my customers is dealing with this

577
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:02,279
now and it's the Microsoft Office problem, right. You think

578
00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:05,279
about Microsoft Office. First everything was in menus, then they

579
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:08,000
had a menu bar, then they had the ribbon, and

580
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,680
you know, we when we started out with this customer,

581
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,720
they were adamant that they wanted to standardize the menus,

582
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,799
like every page has an action menu, where in a

583
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,640
view menu where you can go to different pages and

584
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,559
action menu, we can do the things. But some of

585
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,640
the actions are so critical and some of the navigations

586
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,279
are so critical they pull them out of those menus

587
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:30,240
and put them well not pull them out, but they

588
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,480
add buttons to the top of the page that do

589
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,960
those things because they're so critical that they don't want

590
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,839
the user to have to go search for them in

591
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,160
a menu. Well, that brings up the question why have

592
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,839
anything in the menu if because you have to search

593
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,799
for it? I mean, yeah, just because it's not critical,

594
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,599
they're still going to have to search for it. So

595
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:54,440
just it's it's a good tension.

596
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 3: That's a great example of the the Yeah, the philosophy,

597
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,920
the physical philosophical approach from my perspective, is especially in

598
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:05,480
legacy apps, you don't necessarily want to take away the

599
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:08,319
way things are done now that would have a lot

600
00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:10,839
of ramifications that you don't want to deal with. But sure,

601
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,759
there's nothing wrong with finding different ways to get to

602
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:18,920
those steps in a workflow, or creating completely separate views

603
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,720
that say, Okay, I've got the five steps. Why don't

604
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,440
we create another view that has those buttons to get

605
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,720
to those five steps and maybe some kind of tracking

606
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,279
that says, yes, I've done this and that one. You know,

607
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:33,759
change the visuals a little bit.

608
00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:37,039
Speaker 2: Now. People off share, especially when you start thinking about

609
00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:39,920
different devices, right, Like, you've been doing this all this

610
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,880
time on a PC, but now they really want to

611
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,960
be able to use a tablet or a phone, and

612
00:31:44,079 --> 00:31:46,720
the ux menaphores are different. The Hamburger menu makes sense

613
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:48,640
in that scenario, and it doesn't make sense on a PC.

614
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 3: So that that's kind of what I encourage people to

615
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,960
do when I talk about the legacy app thing is

616
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:56,880
look for the common workflows, the one that a lot

617
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,000
as you you said earlier, the ones that a lot

618
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,119
of people do a lot of the time, and really

619
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,279
make it transparently easy for people to go through that.

620
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,599
And notice that you don't just speak people up and

621
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,480
prevent errors. Although those are really two big considerations. You

622
00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:16,960
also lower people's stress and fatigue because they're not using

623
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,599
up their short constrated hard and you make it easy

624
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,640
for somebody new to walk up to one of these

625
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:29,400
things and carry carry out some process because they don't

626
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,480
have to know as much about how to bounch around

627
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,480
the menu. It would help for I can do a

628
00:32:33,519 --> 00:32:35,960
couple of tangible examples from real projects.

629
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: If that would help. Let's do the break.

630
00:32:37,759 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do the break first, so we'll be right

631
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:43,880
back with Billy's suggestions after we get through this break.

632
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,920
So stick around. We'll be right back after these very

633
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,000
important mesters.

634
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,279
Speaker 2: Do you have a.

635
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: Complex dot net monolith you'd like to refactor to a

636
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,440
micro services architecture? The micro Service Extractor for dot Net

637
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,720
tool visualizes your app and helps progressively extract code into

638
00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:05,039
micro services. Learn more at aws dot Amazon dot com,

639
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:12,240
slash modernize, and we're back it starting at rocks some

640
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,400
Carl Franklin, it's Richard Campbell. Hey, that's Reverend Billy Hollis,

641
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:18,440
and he's going to give us some examples for the record,

642
00:33:18,559 --> 00:33:22,400
not a reverend, not for the record, Yes, not a reverend. No,

643
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,160
that's a that's a nickname I gave him after a

644
00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:27,160
hilarious talk that he did at a.

645
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,279
Speaker 3: Well it's that Southern accent that I get a little

646
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:31,960
bit excited talking about stuff.

647
00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:34,799
Speaker 1: No no, no, dough. It was put your hands on

648
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:38,519
the screen and repeede after me. I am an addicted

649
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,240
a code addict.

650
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,559
Speaker 3: Do you guys know that video where I started the

651
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:47,880
whole thing about code addiction was twenty years ago? I know,

652
00:33:48,039 --> 00:33:50,440
isn't that crazy this year because it was at tech

653
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,160
ed two thousand and five. Yeah, and that video, by

654
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,440
the way, is still out there on YouTube. Smarty wants

655
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,920
to go look at the technology is.

656
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,799
Speaker 2: All absolute, but I will clude it in the show notes. Okay, good, Yeah.

657
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: Before you get to your suggestions, I just want to

658
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,960
get back to desktop apps for a bit, because we

659
00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:10,320
also forget about keyboard shortcuts with desktop apps, even in

660
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,920
browser apps, keyboard shortcuts, because those are things that you know,

661
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,519
people sitting at their desks don't want to navigate through

662
00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:20,880
hierarchical menus. Once they know where they need to go,

663
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,920
they should be able to just hit a couple of

664
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,480
keys and go there. Anyway, So back to your uh.

665
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to come and finish off that my

666
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,320
philosophy is that having multiple ways to get to things

667
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,639
for different classes of users is perfectly fine, and there's

668
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:37,440
a tendency not to do that. Again, going back to

669
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,119
the very beginning of our of our industry, where you

670
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,360
have these extremely limited screens, these character based screens that

671
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,679
you know there was one function key to get to this,

672
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,159
and the tech support would tell you, oh, if you

673
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,119
want to do this, press F two and then F

674
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:56,320
five or whatever. But now with modern UI, you should

675
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,239
make you can make multiple ways to get into things,

676
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,920
and that's there's nothing really wrong with it.

677
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: Nothing wrong with that.

678
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing that one example that comes to mind

679
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,800
is a situation that's not kind of the linear work

680
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,440
for we're talking about. I got another one of those

681
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:13,480
I'll talk about too, But I was working with a

682
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:17,480
company actually not too far from you, Carl, up in Connecticut,

683
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,159
and they were doing a utility building package. Now, think

684
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:26,159
about somebody answering the phone in a utility building place.

685
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,480
What do they need to be able to do in

686
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:33,199
the app to respond to the people that are on

687
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,000
the phone. Well, it turned out, as we discovered there

688
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:44,159
there were about seven things that form the clear large

689
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,119
majority of all the things that they have to ever

690
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,039
answer phone calls about and so in order to do

691
00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:53,320
that work, they had to be able to go to

692
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,639
seven different places in the app because they were all

693
00:35:55,679 --> 00:36:00,559
completely disconnected things. So that meant that, you know, Marge

694
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:02,960
who's been there twenty five years, she knows exactly what

695
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:04,880
to do all that, how to do all that, but

696
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,599
then Brittany comes in to fill in for lunch or something.

697
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,920
Now she's kind of helpless. So instead, what we designed

698
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,000
there was a screen that said, okay, let's take those

699
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:21,599
seven things and ex put seven buttons basically that go

700
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,760
straight to the thing that you're talking to that particular

701
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,320
person about. So one of them, for example, was this

702
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,880
turns out to be really common lawyers call up the

703
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,840
water billing to get final numbers for a property sale clothes.

704
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,599
Speaker 2: So there's a lawyer's button. Yeah.

705
00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 3: So there's basically a button just to go to go

706
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,519
exactly to the place to get.

707
00:36:41,559 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: Use murder button at McDonald's, right.

708
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

709
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: So that's an example of what you think of as

710
00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:52,920
hub based workflow. You've got this this central place that

711
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,760
promotes the ability to go to lots of different places,

712
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,360
but there's a reason why you're at the hub. That

713
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:02,960
those things are connected in some fashion. In this case,

714
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,079
they're connected by the fact that that's what people call

715
00:37:06,159 --> 00:37:10,360
up on the phone to do. So, So that's example.

716
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,159
And then another another one that came up again from

717
00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:18,480
a legacy app that did this just horribly badly, was

718
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,400
if you are on a cattle feed lot and you've

719
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,840
got cows moving around, and you've got they've got to

720
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,239
be fed, and they got to go to the vet

721
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,519
and all this stuff, well it turns out that the

722
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,079
people managing the cattle don't use mobile devices.

723
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: Now is it?

724
00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: Is it obvious?

725
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:39,559
Speaker 2: Why?

726
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:44,599
Speaker 3: No, How long is a mobile device gonna last cattle

727
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:45,800
feed like condition.

728
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: It's just it's been tried and it's there any bandwidth.

729
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's a problem. Yeah, the connectivity could be

730
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:58,159
a problem too. But so basically they still they still

731
00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:01,599
fill out paper forms. Right, so now at the beginning

732
00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:04,199
of the day, somebody has to take all those paper

733
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,920
forms and get all the data into the system. And

734
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,760
there's we got to move the cattle from one one

735
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,440
pen to another. We got to take into account all

736
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,920
the food that was fed the cattle, because that's got

737
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,880
to be charged to the owners of the cattle, and

738
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,719
we got to import what happened on the ve veteran

739
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,960
a side. Maybe some cattle died and things like that.

740
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,079
So there's several things that you have to do, and

741
00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:25,719
you have to do it every day. Coming on Monday,

742
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,960
you do it for the whole weekend. Right, here's the

743
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,239
real problem. If you leave a step out and you

744
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,239
do the final step that kind of puts all the

745
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,559
pieces together. You got on one on the database. Yeah,

746
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:40,440
I mean that's really bad. So that was what one

747
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,719
of their big customer support burdens was sort of refixing

748
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,639
things up for people who did it out of order.

749
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,519
Speaker 2: So one of the ring events. Yeah, that's one of the.

750
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: Main design things was Okay, here's all those things you

751
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,519
got to do, check off. Yes you've done that, No,

752
00:38:57,639 --> 00:39:00,280
you have it. Some warnings and things like that. Their

753
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,920
error right dropped dramatically and it didn't have to think

754
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,440
nearly as stressfully about all the different things that they

755
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,400
had to do, and somebody that wasn't really very sophisticated

756
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:14,079
could come in and take care of it.

757
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: That was a line we used to use on the

758
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,440
assistedmin's side when we were doing you know, root cause

759
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,440
analysis is be more careful next time. Is not a strategy.

760
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,639
Build this into your software, right, build a name as

761
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:28,960
best you can. Yeah, so I think you don't have

762
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:29,760
to be that sensitive.

763
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: So most legacy apps have places where you could go

764
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,079
in and do that. That you could, but understand that

765
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:41,480
that now is charging you with the responsibility of understanding

766
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,320
the big picture the jobs people carry out the details

767
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,360
of those tasks. That's honestly, I think that's the reason

768
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,719
a lot of developers don't do it. We talked about

769
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,760
code addiction. If you're addicted to code, you don't want

770
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,599
to take time off to go figure that business do.

771
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,119
Speaker 2: It's also tires to Tony's comment too, which was there

772
00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:03,239
was a designer who wanted nothing to do with what

773
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,000
the customer actually needed, just wanted to design a screen.

774
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: I think everybody, no matter what their task, they have

775
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,039
the thing they like to do, and they have the

776
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:15,639
other stuff that they don't necessarily like to do. But

777
00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:20,840
I am blessed. Okay, I'm a generalist. I like solving problems.

778
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:23,280
None of that stuff bothers me. I love doing it

779
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,239
at all. But I'm a freak, and I understand that

780
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:29,800
most people in the industry aren't like me. But you

781
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:35,199
need for your own personal growth and you're success in

782
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:40,079
your career. You need to be able to branch out

783
00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:43,679
to do those things. If you have a stack of

784
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,280
talents that you do as a developer and one of

785
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,239
them is figuring out what the business needs for this

786
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,360
software to do, you're going to do better in your career.

787
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,639
And you might even find out you like it well.

788
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's super valuable. Right. The fact that fose

789
00:40:58,519 --> 00:41:00,760
people struggle with it and aren't key on it, it's

790
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,920
just another case for why you might want to focus

791
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,480
on that. You get a lot of return for them.

792
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:08,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, So just look at all those different things you

793
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,639
could do. You can you can learn the principles of

794
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,360
ux design and becoming to be a design You can

795
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,239
learn the principles of facilitation of a group to kind

796
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,800
of help them work through the solution of a problem.

797
00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:22,920
And I know all this is not all for everybody,

798
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:29,800
but growing outside just the code and process world, I think, well,

799
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,320
there's also a psychological component to it. How shall I

800
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,320
put this. I know people that I've worked with over

801
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,719
the years who were extremely talented and very bright, and

802
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,320
their careers just never really took off. And what I

803
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,760
noticed is kind of the common characteristic among those people

804
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,280
is that they lack more for lack of a better

805
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,239
term of its, like kindness. They don't project concern for

806
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,400
the people that they're doing the work for. They may

807
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,679
be perfectly professional, but the people that are doing the

808
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:12,199
work for don't get the idea that they care. And

809
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:16,320
you're part of a you're part of a society matrix here.

810
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:19,119
The other people who see what you do need to

811
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,679
need to feel like you care about them. That's just

812
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,280
human that's just the way things are. And if they

813
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,280
give up, yeah, that's all all life. Yeah, that's life.

814
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,440
And so if you focus so much on code that

815
00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:34,760
the people that are involved in the in the other

816
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,599
aspects of what you do don't get the idea that

817
00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:41,400
you care, then they won't present you with opportunities to

818
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,239
do new things and move up and succeed. All my

819
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,119
best opportunities in this world have come about because somebody

820
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,079
heard some situation or some problem and said, oh, you

821
00:42:52,119 --> 00:42:55,239
need to talk to Billy about that. That's my best

822
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,000
opportunities ever.

823
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,039
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring up switch gears here and bring

824
00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:02,880
go back to the whole legacy systems and how do we,

825
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,719
you know, handle them without breaking them, how do we

826
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,360
update them? All that I might say something, I might

827
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,360
ask a question that's a little controversy. Maybe so, uh,

828
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:20,039
if our legacy systems were built with a micro services architecture,

829
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,519
would we necessarily have an easier time replacing just those

830
00:43:26,559 --> 00:43:31,360
pieces that need replacing? And if so, is that the

831
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,159
only benefit to a microservice?

832
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: Well, we might, I guess, but micro services fall into

833
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,639
that category of to me of things people do so

834
00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:47,320
that they don't have to look at the big picture.

835
00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

836
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the future proofing is kind of part of

837
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:52,440
that whole.

838
00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:59,599
Speaker 3: Well wow, but look, everything in this industry depends upon circumstances.

839
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,840
Some of the places I've gone and done vario sophisticated architecture.

840
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,039
That architecture provided the ability to change things very quickly,

841
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,840
so that, for example, that one of the case studies

842
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,199
often talk about is a workflow system throughout an entire

843
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:24,440
organization of a couple hundred people that was taking drug

844
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:27,559
orders on facts or Internet at one end and shipping

845
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:31,519
FedEx boxes out the other. Now drugs have some drugs

846
00:44:31,519 --> 00:44:33,440
have to be mixed, some just are picked off, some

847
00:44:33,519 --> 00:44:38,480
require special approval. There's all kinds of potential steps. So

848
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:41,159
now we don't have just a linear workflow. Every order

849
00:44:41,199 --> 00:44:44,559
that comes in could zoom through the organization in a

850
00:44:44,639 --> 00:44:49,880
different way. So the generalized architecture said, well, let's generalize

851
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,039
this down, this workflow down to there are work items,

852
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,840
things that need to be worked on. There are cues

853
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:02,000
the computer analog of stacks of items, and there are

854
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:06,039
rules that route items from one queue to another or

855
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:08,519
tell you when you've got valid data and you're done,

856
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,960
et cetera. So the architecture put capabilities for all those

857
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:19,880
things in place, and every existing part of the workflow

858
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,199
was implemented in that architecture. But now they come along

859
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,719
next month and say, you know, we need a new workstation.

860
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,320
There's a new condurruct coming out. We got to do

861
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,440
something different with it. It's ours to make that happen

862
00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:34,880
with that architecture instead of going back and having to

863
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:39,159
write a custom module code somewhere that fits in. So

864
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,079
architecture itself can facilitate that kind of of.

865
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,639
Speaker 1: So we ought to be thinking generation when we build

866
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,599
new systems today, about what happens when they become legacy systems.

867
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:52,280
How easy will it need to update them? And I

868
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,159
don't agree that micro services is the answer because we've

869
00:45:56,199 --> 00:45:59,400
already been down that road, Richard. Lately, there's been a

870
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:06,320
big back against microservice architecture for the modular monolith, right, But.

871
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's there's a universality here. Like it,

872
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:12,159
there's no universal solution, right. The best argument I've ever

873
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:15,519
heard of microservices is you have a large team and

874
00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:19,079
you need to granularize the workload so that everybody's productive.

875
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,800
But if you don't have a large team, it's a

876
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,960
lot of ceremony. It's a really good point, Richard.

877
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: So let's go back to dot Net framework on Windows,

878
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,519
which have the ability to update assemblies in place. Once

879
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:33,119
we got to dot Net Core, we don't have that

880
00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:37,360
ability because that's a Windows feature, right, So a sp

881
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,599
net Core you can't, like you could do with sp

882
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,599
Net on dot Net framework, take a DLL, copy it

883
00:46:44,639 --> 00:46:48,000
to the working directory and just have it come up

884
00:46:48,079 --> 00:46:51,519
like there's no none of that shadowing and all of

885
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:56,400
that stuff that Windows has. However, I have a Blazer

886
00:46:56,559 --> 00:47:00,719
architecture that I've figured out where if you use Razor

887
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,559
class libraries as the boundaries of your Blaser application, whether

888
00:47:05,639 --> 00:47:08,679
they're pages or sets of pages or components or whatever,

889
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,280
those Razor class libraries can be swapped out at runtime

890
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,639
with a tool that is part of my architecture, and

891
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,800
that is a really good way to think about it.

892
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,000
Into future proof is a really kind of a terrible word,

893
00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:28,119
isn't that. I mean, there's no such thing. But it

894
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,960
can mitigate the problems when you need to update, you know,

895
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:35,320
one piece of your application and you don't want the

896
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,639
whole thing to go down and you don't want all

897
00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:39,199
of your users to be interrupted.

898
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, call it. Call it future friendly. Yeah, future friendly,

899
00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:47,719
because yeah, you can't. It is not economically or even

900
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,559
necessarily cognitively possible to future proof.

901
00:47:51,599 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: To take into account way is that the whole yagny line,

902
00:47:55,039 --> 00:47:56,119
like you're going to need.

903
00:47:56,039 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 3: It so that you certainly can't get into that. On

904
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,639
the other hand, at the other end, what people don't

905
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:04,519
seem to be able to do is do any significant

906
00:48:04,599 --> 00:48:08,239
level of abstraction if everything is just a piece in

907
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,920
and of itself and they don't see the commonality between

908
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,320
the pieces. So you have to do that abstraction to

909
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,880
do effective architecture. Yes, and I will tell you that

910
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:22,440
number one we that's caught partially because of the agile thing.

911
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,920
We don't promote people doing abstraction. They're working on individual pieces,

912
00:48:27,119 --> 00:48:30,760
and we don't really push them young early in their

913
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,039
career to develop some of those abstraction skills to think

914
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:37,079
about things. And we should, yeah, we should, We absolutely should,

915
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,199
because you can't do effective architecture without considerable abstraction exactly.

916
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

917
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: And if that just means interfaces, yeah, then that's what

918
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,840
it means. But multiple layers of abstraction have their benefits,

919
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,719
but they can also make things more complex.

920
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 3: They can. It's that's I think that's the problem is

921
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,000
that architecture is a craft, a discipline that takes years

922
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:03,400
to develop. It isn't don't give somebody just stick architect

923
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,639
in their title and expect them to go do some

924
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,920
architecture now. It's it takes time to form that skill

925
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,280
set and to be disciplined about it because a lot

926
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,760
of what you're doing is balancing. Architecture is always a

927
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,880
balancing act. I mean, for example, one of pre eminent

928
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,320
people in the industry on architectures is uvall Oi good

929
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,239
good friend, and I think he's got a terrific uh

930
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,320
way of looking at architecture at the enterprise level that

931
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,760
he works at. And of course, if you add all

932
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,360
guys want to hear yourself get chewed out. Just go

933
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,719
listen to you volved. Sometimes he'll do it, but will

934
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,079
But what I see is that, Yeah, but what I

935
00:49:46,159 --> 00:49:49,519
see is that if you go down the chain far enough,

936
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,559
then some of the ways that you've all would like

937
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:54,079
to do things don't apply at that bottom end, because

938
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:57,639
he's really optimized for the enterprise way of doing things.

939
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,559
And so you have to have that s It's ability,

940
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:04,440
that balance to take circumstances in size and scale and

941
00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:07,400
do account in order to do it. And we just

942
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,079
don't have enough people that ever learned to do that.

943
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,039
Speaker 2: Yeah.

944
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,599
Speaker 1: Well, it takes judgment, and judgment comes with experience, and.

945
00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:17,599
Speaker 2: Experience comes from massive failures.

946
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that brings us, that brings us to our

947
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,000
favorite topic, Richard, which is large language models. And how

948
00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:27,920
I say that totally tongue in cheek because we're so

949
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,159
tired of talking about him. However, when you have a legacy,

950
00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:34,760
you know, part of the problem with legacy applications they

951
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,559
were written by people who are long gone or maybe

952
00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:38,920
long gone or on their way out.

953
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:41,039
Speaker 2: I think that's another one of the another one of

954
00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:42,920
the aspects of what makes a legacy app. It's like

955
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,599
the team that built this isn't there anymore exactly.

956
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,519
Speaker 1: We have the source code, but it's written in whatever

957
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:50,480
you know, visual Basic six.

958
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've also I've run in these situations where

959
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:56,920
and it's not compilable, Like we don't have a compilable

960
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,000
environment the moment.

961
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 3: We don't have all the dependencies for whatever it is.

962
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that could be a place where a large

963
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,679
language model could be agents or whatever could help people

964
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,000
who have at least the closest knowledge set to what

965
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,800
these people were doing, go ahead and improve it, upgrade it,

966
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,599
at least get it compiled, maybe upgraded that kind of thing.

967
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

968
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 3: I think it'd be great, but i'd have to see

969
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:24,599
it work for I believe it could do that.

970
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I think it's fair, and it's yeah, it's

971
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,400
totally fair. Certainly. Something we're pursuing on the show is

972
00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:32,880
find people having success with these tools. I want real

973
00:51:33,079 --> 00:51:37,519
projects fixed. I'm finding some folks having great success in

974
00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:41,480
the green field space. I would love to find someone

975
00:51:41,519 --> 00:51:44,239
who's really knocked it out of the park on an

976
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:49,000
existing application, a brown field refit using these kinds of tools.

977
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,320
I just haven't found it yet. It doesn't mean it

978
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:51,719
doesn't exist. I keep looking.

979
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the GitHub copilot agent seems to do a

980
00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:58,159
good job of small tasks. And by the way, if

981
00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:00,679
anybody saw my Blazer train on that, I have since

982
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,840
changed my philosophy from write one huge prompt that does

983
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,239
a lot of things to you know, take it in

984
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:11,000
smaller bites. Just it's a lot easier to fix when

985
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,320
things go wrong. But anyway, I think that that tool

986
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,840
works really well. You know, if you give it a

987
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,960
small task and it goes off and does it and

988
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,239
comes back with a with a commit, and you can

989
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,320
check it out and try it and test it and

990
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,519
if it works good, it's really good for you know,

991
00:52:27,639 --> 00:52:32,599
upgrading things and doing things differently. But your results may vary.

992
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,079
And since it's nondeterministic, you know what, the results I

993
00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:38,880
get might not be the results you get here. Results

994
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:44,760
may very prompt to prompt. Yeah, that's absolutely true. How

995
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,199
about your results will vary definitely.

996
00:52:49,559 --> 00:52:53,599
Speaker 3: That's the non deterministic part is the scariest part for sure. Yeah,

997
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:58,840
Because look, I learned to write code in nineteen seventy three,

998
00:52:59,159 --> 00:53:01,519
and the first time from money in nineteen seventy eight

999
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,000
And for the entirety of that time, up until very recently,

1000
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,239
coding was a deterministic thing. Yeah, and compiling was deterministic,

1001
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,079
and running was deterministic. And so my entire brain is

1002
00:53:14,119 --> 00:53:17,840
trying to expect a certain amount of determinism and it

1003
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,599
rebels at the idea that, well might not be the

1004
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:23,159
same this time, and you just have to be relaxed

1005
00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:25,880
about that. Well, I haven't learned to be relaxed about

1006
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:26,400
it yet.

1007
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: So I think the first generation was you're a surgeon, Right,

1008
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,599
you're a DOS programmer or whatever. Before Windows, you set

1009
00:53:32,639 --> 00:53:35,320
a breakpoint. You have control of that entire machine at

1010
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,480
that breakpoint. Right, you're a surgeon. You go in and

1011
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,800
tell it exactly what you want. It does exactly what

1012
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,159
you tell it to do. And Bob's your uncle. Windows

1013
00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:46,719
comes along, and now you have asynchronous, right, And that's

1014
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,320
the second generation. Yeah, asynchronous is like, no, you're more

1015
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,800
like a psychologist. You have a conversation. Yeah, you know,

1016
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,719
you make a suggestion, you observe the behavior.

1017
00:53:57,360 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 3: You.

1018
00:53:59,079 --> 00:54:01,519
Speaker 2: Tweak a few things, but it'll be clear. Like we've

1019
00:54:01,559 --> 00:54:03,719
been living with non and Himany's behavior and computing for

1020
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:05,480
a long time. Have you ever been on the Internet.

1021
00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:09,800
Oh well, yeah, but then every packet could travel through

1022
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,280
a different route between a certain word client and the workstation.

1023
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: That's true in terms of certainly in terms of performance.

1024
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 2: Well, and yeah, you just don't know.

1025
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: Then comes along llms with nondeterminism on top of asynchrony

1026
00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:30,119
and the Internet and all of that stuff, and geez, wow,

1027
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:31,480
it's a little different.

1028
00:54:32,039 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 3: I'm in the enviable position of not having to worry

1029
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,480
very much about that because I don't expect ever to

1030
00:54:39,039 --> 00:54:44,480
personally hands on do a large production system. Again, I've

1031
00:54:44,519 --> 00:54:47,920
done many over the years. Semi retired at this point.

1032
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:54,519
And the part that the thing about it is coding

1033
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,559
requires a certain set of capabilities a lot of people

1034
00:54:58,599 --> 00:55:00,199
don't have. And I had it one time, and I

1035
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:02,079
guess I still have. I just don't have them for

1036
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:05,400
as long as I used to. I can't focus and

1037
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,199
and and do that at the intensity that I once did.

1038
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,920
On the other hand, design oriented tasks in software, you

1039
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,599
actually get better at that as you get over because

1040
00:55:15,639 --> 00:55:18,239
you've seen more, you've seen more examples, and you have

1041
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,119
a bigger pool of things drawn.

1042
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,199
Speaker 1: So I you saw the gorilla playing basketball, Yeah, so

1043
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:26,559
you know he's there.

1044
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: But yeah, so I've got all those examples and concepts

1045
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,360
to work with. So so now I've focused my time

1046
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,920
more on that than I do. I still write prototypes

1047
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,119
and things like that, but I don't I don't write rutch.

1048
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,639
I don't really write production code much anymore. I might

1049
00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:46,920
write a little proof of concept for some some complex

1050
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,159
thing that somebody else doesn't really understand how to do.

1051
00:55:49,519 --> 00:55:51,480
I might, I might, I might do that. But that's

1052
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,800
about the limit of my coding at this point. So

1053
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,960
I get to be fairly relaxed about about these changes

1054
00:55:57,039 --> 00:55:57,559
pretty good.

1055
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: I got to tell you on the over on the inside,

1056
00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:03,199
them run as radio. Like the feedback I'm getting from

1057
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,039
some folks where we're talking about using tools like copile

1058
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:08,719
to help you right PowerShell and starting to manage it

1059
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,679
that way, and they're criticizing it. I'm like, you know,

1060
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,960
when you say that, you should shake your fist at

1061
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:20,760
the sky. It fits together very nicely. But yeah, we're

1062
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,039
still in early days. But these tools are interesting.

1063
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: They are interesting. Yeah, just don't get so freaked out

1064
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:28,760
about it. Anything gonna happen.

1065
00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:31,679
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to deny there's a hype cycle

1066
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:33,239
going on, because there is.

1067
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 3: And because of that HiPE cycle I have made fun of,

1068
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,960
like Vibe coding, for example.

1069
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:40,079
Speaker 2: Well, it's infinitely funnable.

1070
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,639
Speaker 3: It is. It is mockable. It is extremely mockable. I

1071
00:56:44,639 --> 00:56:46,559
had an idea this week. I was thinking about see

1072
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:48,199
what you guys think about I was thinking about writing

1073
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:51,880
a humor article about a transcript of a show on

1074
00:56:52,079 --> 00:56:52,840
Vibe cooking.

1075
00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:55,599
Speaker 1: You know you should get you ot GPT to help

1076
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:56,039
you write that.

1077
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: I mean a every comedy thing you want, right, Billy,

1078
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,119
is something I want to read it. But no, I

1079
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:06,280
like your Vibe coking idea because I think it ends

1080
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,480
in a fireball, which I be awesome.

1081
00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:10,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could see that it's it's not going to

1082
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,559
go well and going wrong. And then and then I.

1083
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,079
Speaker 1: Thought I would deep frying seems like when we had

1084
00:57:16,119 --> 00:57:17,920
a little turmeric and see what happens.

1085
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,159
Speaker 3: And then I thought, at the very end it would

1086
00:57:20,159 --> 00:57:23,599
be stay tuned for the next. The next on this

1087
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:27,639
channel an episode of Vibe Child Rearing.

1088
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:34,599
Speaker 1: Subscribe to my channel for more helpful hands. Oh, Billy,

1089
00:57:34,599 --> 00:57:37,159
it's been an absolute delight having you on the show again.

1090
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,199
And do we know how many times you've been on Richard?

1091
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:43,320
Do you have account like.

1092
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,559
Speaker 3: I said, it's in the mid twenties summer.

1093
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 2: I think somewhere in the twenties. He's, you know, at

1094
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,199
the near the top, if not the top. But I

1095
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,719
think the bigger one is a single digit show, a

1096
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,239
couple of visual digit shows, a whole bunch of three

1097
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,000
digit shows, and a ridiculous number of four digits.

1098
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 3: And I'm really proud Carl the fact that the inspiration

1099
00:58:02,159 --> 00:58:05,000
to get started on this was you listening to me

1100
00:58:05,199 --> 00:58:08,920
and Rocky and I talk about something and speakers and

1101
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,039
the speakers he thought, you know, these people have stuff

1102
00:58:11,039 --> 00:58:13,679
to say that other people are to hear. And absolutely

1103
00:58:14,199 --> 00:58:16,840
I really like having kind of so in that sense,

1104
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:19,800
I've been on dot net rocks since the inception of

1105
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:21,320
the idea you have.

1106
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,639
Speaker 1: Indeed, yeah, you predate the inception certainly before the word podcast.

1107
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. I think the other one that I

1108
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,960
like about your story on dot net Rocks, Billy, is

1109
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:38,000
your transformations there too. Yeah I remember design taking you over.

1110
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:43,039
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, partially it is because I've always kind of

1111
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,440
had some affinity but nobody cared, and now they started

1112
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,039
to care and like the twenty ten times, and I

1113
00:58:49,079 --> 00:58:53,000
do enjoy it. And also partially because in the Microsoft space.

1114
00:58:53,199 --> 00:58:56,840
You go back to like twenty ten, there's nobody, nobody

1115
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,079
who's focusing on you.

1116
00:58:58,119 --> 00:59:01,079
Speaker 2: Actually, we said embrace of zam that I think sort

1117
00:59:01,119 --> 00:59:04,400
of because nobody else was doing it. They're such a contrarian.

1118
00:59:04,719 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 3: Everybody that picked up Zamble was just like spoofing whatever

1119
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:09,159
they'd done.

1120
00:59:09,039 --> 00:59:11,199
Speaker 2: Before, and you know, whatever before.

1121
00:59:11,559 --> 00:59:14,159
Speaker 3: And I'm pretty proud of the fact that that that

1122
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,199
me and the team that we worked with on early

1123
00:59:17,199 --> 00:59:19,880
Examal projects, we were determined we were going to make

1124
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,559
Examble do things that people had never seen before.

1125
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 2: I remember talking to one of the pms of Zamal

1126
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,480
talking about his problem with finding concrete examples, like do

1127
00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:33,639
you not know who Billy Hollis is? Are you crazy? Like,

1128
00:59:34,159 --> 00:59:37,000
let me connect you to It'll be a long conversation.

1129
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:38,360
I get clear your calendar.

1130
00:59:39,639 --> 00:59:43,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, well fantastic. I hope this is not the last

1131
00:59:43,079 --> 00:59:44,639
we've heard of you, mister Hollis.

1132
00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I've still got I've still got some time. I

1133
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:50,199
just not as much of it. I think I'm mentioning

1134
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:51,880
this on the last show, so I will I will

1135
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,800
remind people are still listening. You know, the people on

1136
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,119
your show do stuff. I mean they can call us

1137
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:02,519
and get us to do Yeah, but your window of

1138
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:05,920
opportunity for me in particular is starting to close. So

1139
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,280
if you got something you want me to be involved

1140
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,280
in at your company, I'm happy to talk to you,

1141
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:12,599
but two years from now I might not be well.

1142
01:00:12,599 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 1: And likewise, if you've got a new rant, you call us.

1143
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,639
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, So it's one single digit, two double digits

1144
01:00:18,679 --> 01:00:26,519
including panels, ten triples and ten fours. Well now eleven, wow, yeah, wow, jeez, excellent.

1145
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,119
Speaker 1: All right, sir, we'll see you, thanks again, Thank you, gentlemen.

1146
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:32,519
All right, and we'll talk to you next time on

1147
01:00:32,639 --> 01:00:56,760
dot net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you

1148
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,840
by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full

1149
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,079
service audio, video and post production facility located physically in

1150
01:01:05,159 --> 01:01:08,880
New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online

1151
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:12,800
at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O

1152
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,039
T N E t R O c k S dot

1153
01:01:15,079 --> 01:01:20,360
com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access

1154
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,239
to the full archives going back to show number one,

1155
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,559
recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure

1156
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:29,199
you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business

1157
01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:33,079
now go write some code. See you next time you

1158
01:01:33,199 --> 01:01:36,400
got Jack middle vans acc