1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,359 Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Cynthia Hill, director 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,119 of Burden of Proof, and Steven Pandos, brother of Jennifer Pandos, 16 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:03,159 here to talk about the HBO Max series Burden of Proof. 17 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:06,400 Cynthia and Stephen, thank you so much for joining us today. 18 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:08,159 Speaker 5: Thanks for having us. 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you. 20 00:01:10,079 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 4: So let's go ahead and get some introductory material here 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,879 out of the way. Before we talk about your serious 22 00:01:16,879 --> 00:01:19,599 Burden of Proof? Can you start by telling us a 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,920 little bit about yourself? Cynthia will start with you, and 24 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:23,519 then Steven, I'll have you jumped in. 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,239 Speaker 7: I'm a filmmaker based in Durham, North Carolina. I've been 26 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:34,840 making documentaries for now twenty five years and this last project, 27 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:35,680 Burden of Proof. 28 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 5: We've been working on this one since twenty fifteen. 29 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 6: Or a third of your career. 30 00:01:44,359 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 5: Exactly where do I go from here? As panic? 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:50,799 Speaker 2: Oh, that's where we come in. 32 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:52,719 Speaker 4: Stephen, how about you? 33 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 6: I'm Stephen Pandos. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina and 34 00:01:56,319 --> 00:01:58,159 work in a commercial real estate investment. 35 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,359 Speaker 4: How did the two of you end up connect team 36 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,680 to build this relationship that resulted in this wonderful product, 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:05,400 Burden of Proof? 38 00:02:06,719 --> 00:02:09,439 Speaker 5: He sent me a LinkedIn message that said call me. 39 00:02:13,199 --> 00:02:17,439 Speaker 2: Did he say anything else? Was there a pitch contained 40 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:18,439 or Steve? 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 7: No, no, no, not my recollection is the only thing 42 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:27,639 it said was call me. And so I had just 43 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:32,199 recently brought on board Christine delp who's the producer on 44 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,400 this project, and she had just graduated from college and 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,560 her job for that first the first couple of weeks 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,159 was to respond to emails and clean out my voice 47 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:48,360 messages and LinkedIn messages or whatever. And so she came 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,280 across this one and she's Christie's the one that actually 49 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,439 called Stephen that day. 50 00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: Stephen, did you indicate that you were the brother of 51 00:02:56,719 --> 00:03:00,680 a missing person and wanted to talk to her about it? Documentary? 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:01,919 Or what did you say? 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,319 Speaker 6: I don't recall really the specific message. It might just 54 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,560 have been as blunt as please call me or something. 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,599 Speaker 5: I think it was. 56 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:15,759 Speaker 6: And that's how it started. So it was with I 57 00:03:15,759 --> 00:03:18,960 don't know how long the first conversation with Christine was, 58 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,000 but it was a while, and she hung on and 59 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,520 heard the story even though Cynthia was telling her to 60 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:25,080 hang up on me. 61 00:03:25,719 --> 00:03:28,599 Speaker 5: Yeah she was. This is a time when we were 62 00:03:28,599 --> 00:03:29,599 working out of my kitchen. 63 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 7: We were in between offices, I like to say, and 64 00:03:33,159 --> 00:03:38,120 I could see her getting visibly emotional as she's talking 65 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:40,240 with Steven, and I didn't know what was going on. 66 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:42,919 I could be some crazy person who knows, And so 67 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:45,599 I was motioning for her to hang up on him, 68 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,680 and she's showing me away. 69 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 5: You know, it's good, it's good. 70 00:03:49,199 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 7: And so once she hangs up, she tells me the 71 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:56,879 story that Stephen just told her, and she proceeds to 72 00:03:57,199 --> 00:04:02,120 google all of the information, and everything Stephen had invayed 73 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,680 was there, as much as we could find online. We 74 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:08,360 knew he wasn't making up a story, and so we 75 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:10,919 spent the next couple of hours just talking about the 76 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:15,479 implications of what this kind of tragedy has on someone 77 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:16,759 like Stephen and his family. 78 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: Stephen at the point you reached out to Cynthia and Christine. 79 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:27,519 Had you seen Cynthia's twenty fourteen documentary Private Violence? 80 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 6: How did she move? 81 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 7: Yeah? 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 6: No, not at the time. I got referred to Cynthia 83 00:04:34,079 --> 00:04:38,279 by a firm in New York, Tendescent Films, And that 84 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,399 was a result of me just calling just picking up 85 00:04:41,439 --> 00:04:44,639 the phone and calling people who were in the documentary 86 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:45,560 fiwn business. 87 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 5: They were an executive producer on Private Violence. 88 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,439 Speaker 6: By the way, Yeah, just by coincidence, and since what 89 00:04:51,519 --> 00:04:54,480 I was talking about was sort of along the same 90 00:04:54,519 --> 00:04:57,759 lines as Private Violence in terms of what I was 91 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,639 thinking about at the time about and it's the nuances 92 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,079 and complications from it, and so they suggested I reach 93 00:05:06,079 --> 00:05:07,240 out to Cynthia. So I did. 94 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,639 Speaker 4: Cynthia, once you heard Stephen's story, did you anticipate that 95 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,920 this is going to be a multi year event. How 96 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,879 did you see this partnership unspooling? 97 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,199 Speaker 5: Of course not. 98 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:20,759 Speaker 7: I keep promising myself after I conclude a project that 99 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:23,040 the next one will not take as long as this 100 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,279 last one. 101 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 5: I keep out doing myself. I've decided to never make 102 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:28,759 that promise again. 103 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 7: I think that when you tackle anything like this, you 104 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,319 have to be willing to go wherever this story takes you. 105 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:39,560 And I've learned that over the years and my career. 106 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,800 That's what really makes a good story and a good 107 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,199 film is if you have the patience to let it 108 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,160 play out. And so obviously we did not know that 109 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:50,360 this one would take this long. And if you had 110 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,439 told both of us that when we first did that 111 00:05:52,959 --> 00:05:55,800 first shoot that we will be filming for seven and 112 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,079 a half years, I imagine both of us would have 113 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,240 said no. Stephen N myself would have been like, no way, 114 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,920 We're never going to do this. But that's it's just 115 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,480 the road that we took, the path we took, and 116 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:11,600 it led us to where we are. 117 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 4: Now, what did that shoot actually look like? 118 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 5: Like? 119 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 4: How often per week, per month, per year would you 120 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,360 see each other and you would show up at Stephen's 121 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,519 house with cameras and go, okay, it's time to go 122 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,680 to work. I'm really curious about what it looks like 123 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,120 to shoot with someone for seven years. 124 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,199 Speaker 7: The first time we shoot, it's the first time I 125 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,639 meet Stephen, so I had not actually spoken to him. 126 00:06:34,879 --> 00:06:38,000 I just was getting the information from Christine and from 127 00:06:38,079 --> 00:06:41,120 the initial conversation she had with him. We decided that 128 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,639 it was worth pursuing and at least seeing where a. 129 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:46,759 Speaker 5: Couple of shoots would get it. 130 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,519 Speaker 7: So at least one shoot with Stephen, and so Steven 131 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,600 drives to Durham. At this point, I think that he's 132 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:57,319 willing to do whatever it takes to try to get 133 00:06:57,519 --> 00:07:00,759 interest in his sister's case and feel like he'd hit 134 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:04,240 a brick wall. So he rolls up in front of 135 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,439 my house and we just film. We filmed pretty much 136 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:10,759 as he's walking in the door, and we've been filming 137 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,040 with him like that ever since. 138 00:07:13,839 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 6: So those scenes are in the first episode, right, Yep. 139 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 7: It's the first thing with Stephen is that first meeting, 140 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,120 that first encounter with us, Because for me, it's really 141 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,600 important that I capture those first conversations because a lot 142 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,600 of times those are the most revealing conversations, you get 143 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,639 the most raw emotion because it's the first time that 144 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,800 they're telling me that story. Is the first time Steven's 145 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,439 telling me what happened, and so I just wanted to 146 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,240 be sure that we captured that. 147 00:07:44,079 --> 00:07:47,279 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about Burden of Proof. Then 148 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:53,360 someone hasn't seen the documentary series yet, what is it, Stephen? 149 00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:54,639 Speaker 5: You want to tackle that one? 150 00:07:54,639 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 6: Are you? 151 00:07:55,079 --> 00:07:55,319 Speaker 4: No? 152 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,079 Speaker 6: I think that's up to you. I'm a little too close. 153 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:58,879 I'm in the fishbowl. 154 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 7: I guess I can give you what we call our 155 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,879 elevator pitch, which is this is Burden of Proof is 156 00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:12,600 the story of Jennifer Pandos, a fifteen year old girl 157 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:17,240 who went missing in Williamsburg, Virginia in nineteen eighty seven. 158 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,759 We follow her brother as he seeks justice for his sister. 159 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,079 So that, in a nutshell, is what this story is about. 160 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,319 Speaker 4: As soon as we started receiving requests from our listeners, 161 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,879 Hey have you guys watched Burden of Proof? Are you 162 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,480 covering Burden of Proof? And I looked at the information 163 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,799 about this, The first thing that I really thought was 164 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,879 brother seeking justice for murdered sister. That sounds a lot 165 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,639 like my partner in crime. This is so interesting storyline there. 166 00:08:49,759 --> 00:08:52,320 It's a very familiar storyline, and so we were hooked 167 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:56,639 from minute one. Stephen, your story is it's so similar 168 00:08:56,639 --> 00:08:58,879 to Bill's that I was sitting there watching the documentary 169 00:08:58,919 --> 00:09:01,559 and going, this sounds so familiar, Like you guys have 170 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,120 gone through a lot of the same struggles in terms 171 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,000 of lunf s min issues, And I just want to 172 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,919 take a minute, just on a personal level and say 173 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:10,639 how Sarah I am that you've had to go through that, 174 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,639 and I really feel for you in every way that 175 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:15,919 I can, So I just wanted to throw that out there. 176 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 6: Oh, thank you, it's John. 177 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,799 Speaker 2: One of the things that was very striking for us 178 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,519 was there's also a contrast and I'm not criticizing here, 179 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,639 but I don't think there's much way around this. We 180 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:35,840 were floored by how little Kristin and I knew about 181 00:09:35,879 --> 00:09:40,600 the Jennifer Pandos disappearance. Kristin lives in Williamsburg. She's a 182 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:44,120 teacher in Williamsburg. She actually graduated from the same high school, 183 00:09:44,159 --> 00:09:48,519 Lafayette High School, that Jennifer was attending. And Jennifer's disappearance 184 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,440 happens just a couple of months after the October nineteen 185 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,159 eighty six murder of my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. 186 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,559 And one of the things that's come up with us 187 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,440 in the discussion with other people outside the four of 188 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,440 us here is that one made the observation that they 189 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,480 felt like the Colonial Parkway murders, which weren't called that 190 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:12,639 back then because they hadn't even all happened yet, but 191 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:17,320 that the high profile murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, 192 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,720 followed by these murders of these other young people sucked 193 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,759 the oxygen out of the room in Williamsburg from a 194 00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:30,159 kind of a media perspective which we'd never thought about. 195 00:10:30,279 --> 00:10:33,879 Kristin and I we were like shocked by that. One 196 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:36,840 of our strongest takeaways from watching Burden of Proof is 197 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,840 why didn't the Pando's case receive more attention back in 198 00:10:42,919 --> 00:10:47,159 nineteen eighty seven when Jennifer first disappeared. Stephen, do you 199 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,639 have a sense of why that might have happened? 200 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 6: No, when Jennifer disappeared, I was in college in North 201 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,480 Carolina and never really moved back to Williamsburg other than 202 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,639 for maybe a few months after that, and dealing with 203 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,399 law enforcement was always something that my parents did. I 204 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,759 was whatever, eighteen at the time. That just wasn't it 205 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:10,720 wasn't my job. That was my parents thing to do. 206 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,440 So I don't know, I don't have a good answer 207 00:11:12,519 --> 00:11:13,639 for that, Cynthia. 208 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: Do you have any sense of why this case was 209 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,519 so low key for so. 210 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 7: Long that we had that exact same question whenever we 211 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,679 first started, because when you would google Jennifer Pandos, there 212 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,080 were only just a few mentions, and you could if 213 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,759 you did some real hard digging, you could find those 214 00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:38,759 earlier articles or mentions about her being missing in the 215 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,720 local paper, but that was it for us. It was 216 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,440 very disturbing, especially with what was going on with the 217 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:51,519 Parkway murders and Bill, I just want to say, your 218 00:11:51,759 --> 00:11:56,639 and Stephen's stories, the way that they parallel are so uncanny. Yeah, yeah, 219 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,159 And so I didn't put that together either until we 220 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,399 got this request from y'all for this podcast. But it 221 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,799 was something that we would talk about quite often with 222 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:10,919 our team here, our internal team as to how did 223 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,919 this get such little attention and why with a fifteen 224 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,000 year old girl missing, was there not more done. I 225 00:12:21,039 --> 00:12:24,519 think that it was a different time and with kids 226 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,039 going missing Unfortunately they're like, Okay, she ran away, and 227 00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:33,960 the time before cell phones and new constant contact with people, 228 00:12:34,039 --> 00:12:37,919 And so I think that for the cops, at least 229 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:42,919 from the questioning that I have done within the police 230 00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:45,480 department and the former investigators, it was like they just 231 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:47,919 assumed that it was a runaway and they treated as 232 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:52,240 as such. But even if that's the case, a runaway 233 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,440 team is at so much d is in so much 234 00:12:55,519 --> 00:12:58,919 danger of something worse happening, even if she did run away, 235 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,600 that this wasn't given the kind of attention that it 236 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,320 should have been given is so sad. 237 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 2: Agreed that the times were very different, but it's actually 238 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,039 shocking now, especially to look back in retrospect. And agreed, 239 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,840 this is a pre cell phone, pre social media environment. 240 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,039 When we speak about the Colonial Parkway murders, I always 241 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,360 feel like I'm talking about the Civil War, because we 242 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,519 have to remind we speak to college audiences, for example, 243 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,039 that they will ask why didn't somebody call on their 244 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,600 cell phone? And how come they didn't get surveillance video. 245 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:37,279 People forget that surveillance video is a relatively new thing. 246 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,159 Except for maybe your local seven to eleven. You didn't 247 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,200 see cameras outside of homes and retail establishments. For the 248 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,000 most part, there's all kinds of changes. And then, of course, 249 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,639 I think you were touching on this a little bit indirectly, 250 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,879 which is the idea of a runaway fifteen year old 251 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,679 girl or any young person could be in danger. And 252 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,360 we talk about sex traffic now, which I don't remember 253 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:06,120 people talking about thirty years ago. No, but it's actually 254 00:14:06,279 --> 00:14:10,799 shocking to look back and see just how little was 255 00:14:10,919 --> 00:14:14,399 done with Jennifer's disappearance in nineteen eighty seven. 256 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, And I think for us that was always like 257 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,879 a big mystery, and that original case file from nineteen 258 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,120 eighty seven was missing. We didn't have a clear picture 259 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,159 as of what did actually happen in nineteen eighty seven. 260 00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:31,639 Did they get the telephone records or did they go 261 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,200 to gate and acquire the ins and outs of people 262 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,080 coming in out of that gated community, Like, we didn't 263 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,279 have any idea if any of that had transpired. 264 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:44,519 Speaker 2: Was anybody from law enforcement able to answer those questions? 265 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,519 The original investigators didn't move to the moon. Weren't some 266 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,559 of those people available to answer those questions? 267 00:14:52,879 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, And that is a part of the second case 268 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:01,480 file that was created into two thousands where Wendy and 269 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,919 Jeff the lines. They were the investigators in the two thousands, 270 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,919 and they called the original investigators in nineteen eighty seven, 271 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:11,759 and so they asked them about certain things like did 272 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:15,399 you take the letter? Or was the note in the 273 00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:17,399 case file? What was in the case file? Since it's 274 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,080 not here. Obviously, those original investigators didn't have a lot 275 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,120 to say about it, at least according to the notes 276 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,679 from Wendy and Jeff, but they were very certain that 277 00:15:27,759 --> 00:15:30,279 they had collected the note that was left at the scene, 278 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,000 and they also just remembered it as a runaway case. 279 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 4: Stephen, do you know if your parents ever actually went 280 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,600 to the guard gate and asked, Hey, did somebody call in? 281 00:15:38,679 --> 00:15:41,559 Did somebody come in? I was explaining to Bill in 282 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,399 our first episode, because Bill isn't based here, but I am. 283 00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:47,440 I was explaining about the process for getting into and 284 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,000 out of King's Mill. I have friends who live there, 285 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,600 and so I spent a lot of time in my 286 00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:53,480 childhood going in and out, and I know that it's 287 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,519 very secure, and you have to go to the gate, 288 00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:57,720 you have to stop, you have to call in. They 289 00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:00,159 give you the past. Did your parents ever check one 290 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,519 who came in and who came out, and if anybody 291 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:04,080 actually came for Jennifer that night. 292 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't recall if I'm sure they did, because 293 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,519 at the time, the one ninety nine gate at King's 294 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,000 Mill closed at midnight or eleven o'clock or whatever it was, 295 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,919 so it was only the Route sixty gate was the 296 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,320 only one open twenty four hours in nineteen eighty seven. 297 00:16:20,639 --> 00:16:21,879 Speaker 4: Okay, that's good to know. 298 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: So in terms of the documentary, one of the questions 299 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:29,000 we wanted to ask was do you feel that you 300 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,720 were able to be specific enough in terms of who 301 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,519 you think could be responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. The series 302 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,120 closes with things in an open ended fashion, but do 303 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,600 you feel and we understand there's restrictions legal and otherwise 304 00:16:44,679 --> 00:16:47,639 about what you can and cannot say in a documentary, 305 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:49,879 do you feel like you were able to take it 306 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:51,039 as far as you wanted to. 307 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:54,279 Speaker 7: I thought we took it as far as we could 308 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,039 take it based on where the cops were currently with 309 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,080 the case and with the information that we were able 310 00:17:01,159 --> 00:17:06,279 to gain access to ourselves. It is an active case 311 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,119 and they are pursuing suspects, and if you watch the film, 312 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,799 you get a sense of where they're headed. 313 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 5: I think for us, when we first. 314 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 7: Started this process, we really didn't think of this as 315 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,599 a who done it with the goal of trying to 316 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,240 solve the case like that was not what our intention 317 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,559 was when we first started it. When we were initially 318 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,200 meeting with Steven, we thought that this was more of 319 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,440 a story about a family tragedy and the fallout of 320 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,279 that trauma from nineteen eighty seven, and so that's how 321 00:17:39,279 --> 00:17:42,960 we were pursuing the story. But our curiosity about the 322 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,359 case and how, and if you watch the series, you'll 323 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,319 see this in the very first frames, the cops ended 324 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,160 up suspecting the parents, and so we were very curious 325 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,359 about that, and so we brought an investigative reporter or 326 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,759 former investigative reporter onto our team to help us. She 327 00:17:59,799 --> 00:18:02,599 became an integral a part of the team, Andrea Weigel 328 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,880 when she worked at the News and Observer for many 329 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,400 years here in North Carolina, and so she became the 330 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,319 one that really helped us dissect the case because Stephen 331 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:14,480 had sooned the police department or was in the process 332 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:18,039 of doing that to be able to declare Jennifer as 333 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:22,200 being deceased. I think for the illegal advice and Steven, 334 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,400 I'm stepping all over you right now. But for the 335 00:18:24,519 --> 00:18:27,440 legal advice that he had received from the attorney that 336 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,160 he was working with, he was not able to take 337 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,920 action against his parents. And so this was I guess 338 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:39,599 one remedy for Steven to hopefully take some steps at 339 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,920 closure to be able to say, hey, she's always just 340 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,480 been listed as missing, but everybody knows that Jennifer's not 341 00:18:46,519 --> 00:18:48,640 coming back, so let's go ahead and make the move 342 00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:53,319 to declare her deceased. And so, because of that work 343 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,880 that he had done, he had gained access to that 344 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,880 new case file that was created in the two thousands, 345 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,079 and this was this big, wopping case file that he 346 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,440 walked into our house on that first day of shooting 347 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,279 or filming, and that's the material that we had to 348 00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:12,880 work with. So as the documentary proceeds, you will see 349 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,319 the evidence that we are Steven pulls out, but that 350 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,640 we get to understand how the cops suspected who they 351 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:21,359 did suspect. 352 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,079 Speaker 4: Steven, are you comfortable referring to Jennifer's case as a 353 00:19:25,079 --> 00:19:28,079 homicide case or would you still prefer that people refer 354 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,160 to it as missing persons? I'm just curious. 355 00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, I haven't really thought about it. I don't believe 356 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,640 that my sister's coming back, so I'm fine either way. 357 00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:38,119 I've just always thought of her as missing. But I 358 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,599 didn't what Snia said. I didn't like to sue the 359 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:43,440 police department. I put my petition the court to have 360 00:19:43,559 --> 00:19:48,319 Jennifer declared deceased. I originally made an information request like 361 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:51,599 a public information request to the police department for Jennifer's 362 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,319 case file to support the petition to have ver declared deceased. 363 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,440 And then what the police department told my attorney was, look, 364 00:19:58,519 --> 00:20:01,240 we can't give you that on or this way that 365 00:20:01,279 --> 00:20:03,759 you asked for it, but if you subpoena the information 366 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,640 US for that information, we won't fight it. And that's 367 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,200 how I got the That's how I received the case file. 368 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,000 And then when I had Jennifer declared deceased, my attorney 369 00:20:13,039 --> 00:20:15,079 had to go meet with the judge and the police 370 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:18,799 department and then he declared Jennifer deceased and that's when 371 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:21,319 I put a marker in the cemetery for and it 372 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:27,039 was at the time that felt like closure then, so 373 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:28,480 that was why I did it. 374 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: I'm still pleasantly surprised they gave you the case file. 375 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,839 From personal experience, the FBI has fought us every step 376 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:41,720 of the way, and the FBI is the responsible agency 377 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,400 in my sister and Rebecca Dowski's murder. 378 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 6: I think that at the time it was probably the 379 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,960 distinction set they were treating Jennifer's case as a cold 380 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,359 case and not active. And do won't take this offer 381 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,559 to say that this opportunity to say that the police 382 00:20:56,599 --> 00:20:59,279 department has been great to me all the way back 383 00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:02,160 to two thousand nine. They've been really good to me 384 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,799 and Collins, and they returned my phone calls and they've 385 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,079 just been great to work with. 386 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: I wish I could say the same. 387 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, you have a difference. You're wrestling a different beast altogether. 388 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. People have said to me, Bill, you should see 389 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:23,400 the FBI, and you do recognize that what that actually 390 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,880 looks like is William F. Thomas versus the United States 391 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,319 of America. That's actually who I'm suing. Yeah, when you 392 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:37,920 think about the resources, they can a picture own money. Yeah, 393 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:39,400 I think they do. 394 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,759 Speaker 4: Cynthia, I know you said that you didn't set up 395 00:21:44,799 --> 00:21:47,200 for it to be who done it, But if I 396 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,880 had to guess, I would imagine that probably tips have 397 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,880 begun to come in, either to you or to Steven 398 00:21:53,039 --> 00:21:55,319 or to James City County. Can you speak to that 399 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,519 whether or not tips have come in. Are you getting 400 00:21:57,599 --> 00:21:59,200 leads in this case at all? 401 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: There? 402 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,039 Speaker 5: Now you go ahead, I say. 403 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 6: No, I haven't. I've received a couple of phone calls 404 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,960 that I've referred to the police department. I know I've 405 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,240 spoken to Jake, but he's told me that he has 406 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,759 received some calls. Nothing really specific that he can follow 407 00:22:14,839 --> 00:22:17,400 up on, but he has received a few calls. 408 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: And one of those callses from my roommate. Actually, I 409 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,839 know you did speak to her, yes, but I know 410 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,839 I was very curious whether or not this was going 411 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,920 to yield any investigative leads eventually. 412 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, I hope it does, and I know the police 413 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,119 department is hoping that as well. 414 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 415 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:49,319 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 416 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,680 mindover Murder. Let's talk about Jake Rice for a minute. 417 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:57,920 He appears in the documentary what's his role now as 418 00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:01,920 a forensic investigator? Is he still with the James City 419 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,240 County Police Department on a full time basis or what's 420 00:23:05,279 --> 00:23:06,000 his status. 421 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 6: He's there part time. He retired as a police officer, 422 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:13,200 but he still works for the police department. He just 423 00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:15,680 doesn't carry a badge and a gun. And he and 424 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:21,319 Rich are the principal investigators on the case. Jake has 425 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:24,440 the most history with it, going back to two thousand, 426 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,480 probably tennish and he knows. 427 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,519 Speaker 2: The most And what's your relationship like with Investigator Rice. 428 00:23:31,759 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 6: Jake is great. That's not to say that we haven't 429 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,640 had tense conversations, or at least because we have. He 430 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,599 has a process that he has to work through. I 431 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,319 have to respect the process. I can't change it. The 432 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,119 only thing I can do is try to help him 433 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,359 get through it as fast as he can. But you know, 434 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,319 Jake has been terrific. 435 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:55,279 Speaker 4: There were definitely times when I was watching and we 436 00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:57,839 were watching you make phone calls to Jake, and Jake 437 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,519 was saying, there's stuff is still out of the lab. 438 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:02,839 I don't have results for you yet. And again I 439 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,640 had that sense of deja vous. I've seen this before, 440 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,319 I've heard this before. I know Bill gets these same 441 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,240 phone calls. There's just this real sense of empathy about 442 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,160 this whole entire thing with what you're going through is 443 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,279 related to what Bill's going through. It's a little startling 444 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,960 to realize that seems to be what most people who 445 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,319 have a cold case are going through rather than I 446 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:25,279 think it's the norm rather than a surprise, and I 447 00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:26,880 hate that. I hate that's the norm. 448 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: One of the things we talk about in Mind over 449 00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:31,799 Murder is that there are two hundred and fifty thousand 450 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:35,599 cold case homicides in the United States, so there are 451 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,200 at least potentially millions of people. If you think about 452 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,440 everybody having a few loved ones within their family, there 453 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,119 are actually millions of people going through this. It's actually 454 00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:50,559 usually a very quiet process. It was a privilege to 455 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,680 meet you through the documentary process, and then Kristin and 456 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,039 I were watching it at the same time, but not 457 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,359 in the same room. We were both making a point of, hey, 458 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,519 let's watch these four episodes and compare notes to some 459 00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:06,759 of which we did on the air on our podcast. 460 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,680 Because it's usually such a private process, it was unusual 461 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,880 to see all of these very strong parallels between your 462 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,759 journey and mine. I think I got most heavily involved 463 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:20,759 in Kathy's case in two thousand and nine, which I 464 00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:24,559 think also roughly parallels the timeframe where you decided you 465 00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:27,759 wanted to step forward. How did you feel about opening 466 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:30,480 up your at least that part of your life over 467 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:32,279 the course of seven plus years. 468 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 6: I just the big picture was justice for my sister, 469 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,920 and so whatever I had to do to help deliver 470 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,720 justice for my sister was what I did, whatever consequence. Yeah, 471 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,079 that's just what I did. Was I always kept the 472 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:50,640 big picture of the big goal was justice for my sister, 473 00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,920 and so I just did whatever was required for that. 474 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,839 Speaker 2: Did you ever find yourself circling back with Cynthia as 475 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:01,759 a filmmaker and saying, let's not put that in or 476 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,720 did you think to yourself, I'm focused on the larger 477 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:08,400 goal and I'm willing to do this show the process 478 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:08,960 works and. 479 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 6: All, yeah, I'll let Cynthia answer that. 480 00:26:12,559 --> 00:26:14,559 Speaker 2: No, prescient Cynthia. 481 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:15,839 Speaker 4: Now. 482 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 7: The interesting thing and when Stephen watched the episodes towards 483 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,519 the end, he had not seen anything. He walked out 484 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:30,519 and he said, what did you say again about the 485 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:31,680 the trust exercise? 486 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 6: Oh? Yeah, this was the ultimate kind of trustball exercise. 487 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,200 Because I didn't see any of it until I guess 488 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,599 about a year before it came out. I saw the 489 00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:46,119 first couple episodes, and we were still waiting on lab 490 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,799 results and everything else for the fourth. But yeah, I 491 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:51,720 didn't see any of it for six and a half years. 492 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,440 And this was Cynthia's film, and whatever she wanted to 493 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,119 put in it, she could put in it. 494 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a big responsibility, but it's also an honor 495 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,160 to have someone like Steven trust you like that with 496 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:13,680 all the material that we had and the intimacy and 497 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:16,920 everyone that we filmed was great about that, I have 498 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,599 to say, or mostly I have to say, But it's 499 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,160 like that as a documentary filmmaker all the time. It's 500 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:29,440 like that that fine line between being there and showing 501 00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:35,359 enough so the audience is very clear about the emotional 502 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,160 trauma and the struggles, and then when does it become exploitation, 503 00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:44,799 and so you have to be mindful of that at 504 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:45,400 all times. 505 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 4: I feel like Cynthia, I wanted to ask one thing 506 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,160 in particular about the re enactments. I noticed you had actors, 507 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,519 of course, for Jen, for Margie and for Ron. Were 508 00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:58,839 you there orchestrating everything that was going on with all 509 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,440 of the actors and actresses? How long did that take? 510 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,039 I'm really curious about that when Stephen, I'm curious how 511 00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:08,079 you felt about watching somebody playing your sister. But let 512 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,400 me start with Cynthia talk about the reenactments a little bit. 513 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 7: Sure, Yeah, they were very much a part of the 514 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,559 whole process of what I was envisioning for the film. 515 00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:19,720 And I'd never directed actors before, so that was a 516 00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,559 bit I was a bit nervous about that process, as 517 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:23,960 it felt very foreign to me. 518 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 5: But I really was determined to use. 519 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 7: That thre's recreation scenes to amplify the unreliableness of memory. 520 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:39,880 That's how it all started, was that we were getting 521 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,880 these different takes on Jennifer, like who Jennifer was. So 522 00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:46,240 it started out with that, like everybody had a different 523 00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:48,759 Jennifer when they talked about her, and I thought that 524 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,640 was so interesting and compelling and shouldn't be that surprising 525 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,279 when you think about a fifteen year old girl, she 526 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,720 is going to be a play a different role for 527 00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:01,319 different people. She's going to be for her mom, her dad, 528 00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:06,400 her brother, her friends, her teachers, she's she will be 529 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:10,000 different and described differently, And that started out this whole 530 00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:15,079 idea of trying to implify that theme again of having 531 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,599 memory being unreliable too. 532 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,839 Speaker 4: Stephen, How was it for you watching someone playing Jennifer? 533 00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:24,839 Speaker 6: So much of this whole experience and not just the 534 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,759 film going back to two thousand and nine has been surreal. 535 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:31,759 And that's just one other surreal moment. But the first 536 00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:34,440 time you know that I met Savannah, Yeah, it was 537 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,680 just super weird. And you know that was long before 538 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,920 I had seen anything. I think it was at a 539 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,720 birthday party for Cynthia. That where I first met Savannah, that's. 540 00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:45,799 Speaker 5: The actress that played Jennifer. 541 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:46,079 Speaker 3: Yeah. 542 00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: See, that's another experience that you and Bill actually have 543 00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:53,400 in common. When Oxygen Today documentary on the Colonial Parkway murders, 544 00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:56,839 we also had re enactments, and I remember sitting with 545 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,000 Bill in a van right outside of the area where 546 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:03,160 they were doing a reenactment of Kathy's murder and just 547 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,880 asking him, mariy are you okay meeting an actress who's 548 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,319 playing your sister? Essentially, I can't imagine how surreal it is. 549 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:11,759 I think that's a great word, Stephen. This is going 550 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:14,880 to be a very intense and unusual process, but your 551 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,119 product is amazing. 552 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 2: One of the things I was very struck by were 553 00:30:19,279 --> 00:30:24,039 the use of the real life footage from what essentially 554 00:30:24,079 --> 00:30:29,039 are interrogations of Stephen and Jennifer's mother. How did you 555 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:32,440 gain access to them and how did you feel like 556 00:30:32,519 --> 00:30:36,200 you were going to preserve the integrity of the conversation 557 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,119 in showing them. Obviously you're not going to show hours 558 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,039 of footage in a documentary that has a limited runtime, Cynthia, 559 00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:44,359 how do you work around that? 560 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 7: Copies of the interrogation were on DVDs in that original 561 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,039 that case file that Stephen acquired in twenty fourteen, and 562 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,519 so that's how we got access to that materials because 563 00:30:55,559 --> 00:30:58,519 it was just part of what was given over Stephen 564 00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:03,079 made this petition, and so when we came across that 565 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,240 or when we watched it. Tom Vickers, who is the 566 00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:09,279 editor that I've been working with for many years, he's 567 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,680 he and I've been a team or all of the 568 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,519 work since I don't know, for fifteen years almost he 569 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:19,240 was like, oh my god, because I was like spot 570 00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:21,279 checking stuff because we're out in the field and he's 571 00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:23,000 you got to sit down and watch it from start 572 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:25,880 to finish, and so sitting down and watching it, and 573 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,240 we contemplated for a long time as we're editing, is 574 00:31:28,279 --> 00:31:28,960 like how much. 575 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:30,079 Speaker 5: Do you think that we can show? 576 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 7: And it's like, gosh, it would be amazing to have 577 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:36,000 a whole episode of just that material so that you 578 00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:38,359 can really get a sense of what that experience is 579 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,039 like for someone, and especially after you see the ending 580 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,839 of the series, going back and watching that again. 581 00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:48,759 Speaker 5: And we do visually reference. 582 00:31:48,359 --> 00:31:51,799 Speaker 7: That at the end of episode four, so that we 583 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:56,960 remind the audience of what emotionally that probably was doing 584 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:57,960 at that time. 585 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 5: It was important for us to have as much as 586 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:00,880 we could have in there. 587 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 7: But yes, when you are doing something for a large 588 00:32:05,039 --> 00:32:09,920 streamer broadcaster like HBO, they are concerned about audiences and 589 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,359 making sure that they don't tune away, and so it 590 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,799 was a negotiation as to how much we get. 591 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 6: And that was that was long, because you know, that 592 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,359 was that first interview with my mom took place on 593 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,799 a Thursday, from around six pm to midnight. There were 594 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,880 six hours of it from that day and then three 595 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,000 hours of it the following day. Wow, And that was 596 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,359 that was a really hard day. 597 00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: Are you in touch with former investigator Wendy Read as well? 598 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 6: I talked to Wendy on occasion. I don't talk to 599 00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:49,559 regularly or anything, but yeah, just on where occasion I do. 600 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,759 Speaker 4: So, are the two of you on the same page 601 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,279 in terms of your personal theories about the case, about 602 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,599 what may have happened to Jennifer or is there any 603 00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:05,039 place in which the two of you vary about what 604 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:06,400 you think may have happened to her? 605 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,559 Speaker 5: I'll answer it by not answering it. That's what okay. 606 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:24,279 Speaker 7: And obviously, as a filmmaker, and I think Steven's been 607 00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:28,519 on this similar ride with us, we have to imagine 608 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,759 what transpired because that helps us figure out where do 609 00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:36,480 we want to go with asking more questions and who 610 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,720 do we think we should talk to and all that stuff. So, 611 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:44,039 of course, over the course of working on this case 612 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,759 or making the film, I've had different ideas floating in 613 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:50,680 my head as to what you can think, what you 614 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,920 think transpired, and it has varied wildly. I have to say, 615 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,240 I think that what you'll see is we still don't know, 616 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,319 because like trying to put those pieces together with what 617 00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:04,640 information we do have now, which is a lot more 618 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,720 than what we started with, some of it still doesn't 619 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:10,920 line up, so like how does that happen? So still 620 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,400 trying to make sense of how she got out of 621 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,400 the house, without anybody. 622 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 5: Knowing is still a mystery, and so. 623 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 7: It's yeah, we I mean, I was hoping that we 624 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,159 would have more answers, and I think we I don't know, Stephen, 625 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:29,440 if you want to add anything to. 626 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:39,159 Speaker 6: That, No, I think that's that's fair. And it's look, 627 00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:42,400 one of the things that led to all this heartache, 628 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:48,079 and is speculation right to try hard not to repeat 629 00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:51,840 that same mistake in the absence of actually knowing. 630 00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: So well put, we're not trying to compare our limited 631 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,079 experience with anything close to the number of years now 632 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,280 that the two of you have dedicated to Jennifer's disappearance. 633 00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:11,119 Even Christin and I have spent hours talking about just 634 00:35:11,199 --> 00:35:14,480 that one issue, for example, and lots of others. How 635 00:35:14,519 --> 00:35:17,880 did Jennifer get out of the house without anyone noticing? 636 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,960 And we went through any number of options, some of 637 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,400 which seem to make sense to us at the time, 638 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,519 even my view of the case, which again is limited 639 00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:30,519 based on all the articles we've read. Watching the series 640 00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:33,679 very carefully, really being very impressed with the amount of 641 00:35:33,679 --> 00:35:36,159 work that you've put in, you still end up with 642 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,519 almost as many questions as you have answers. Was that 643 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:44,800 a hard sell? Cynthia for a documentary. Were you ever 644 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,679 under any pressure to push this in a particular direction. 645 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,360 Obviously we don't know what happened to Jennifer, and the 646 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,360 series has to end on a question mark. 647 00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,159 Speaker 7: I think that you, as a filmmaker could have a 648 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:06,119 lot of pressure from executives from certain networks or streaming platforms. 649 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:09,639 But working with HBO, they came on board fairly early 650 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,519 on for development when we had no idea that we 651 00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:16,039 were the case was going to even become active again. 652 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,639 So we never said from the very get go that 653 00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:22,159 this was going to be a case that was going 654 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,000 to be solved. So I think that there was never 655 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,480 this oh my gosh, you didn't solve that awful. 656 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 5: But I do think that as. 657 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 7: The case became active and we were there and the 658 00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:37,079 throws and the thick of the investigation and uncovering things 659 00:36:37,119 --> 00:36:41,880 on our own, there was some I use the word 660 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,360 excitement but for lack of a better word, about the 661 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,079 excitement over the potential of learning more. 662 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 5: And we do learn a lot more. 663 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 7: We don't have the definitive answer, but we do learn 664 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,840 a heck of a lot more, and I think that 665 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,639 we're closer to understanding more about Jennifer's state of mind 666 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:04,000 and other things that are going on surrounding Jennifer that 667 00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:08,199 play into this whole case. And so I felt as 668 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,079 though that not having a case that was solved did 669 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:16,119 not hinder the power of the story when it finally 670 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,000 did come to an end for us and how we 671 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:19,719 were telling. 672 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,199 Speaker 2: The story, would you ever consider returning with a fifth 673 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,800 episode if there were significant developments in the case. 674 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,119 Speaker 7: Yeah, I would love to be able to do that, 675 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,960 to pick it up and hoping that we do have 676 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,480 more concrete answers. 677 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Stephen, how do you feel about that? 678 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm open for it. Well, you just have to 679 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239 wait and see it. You know, if telling Jennifer's story 680 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,559 helps others, than I'm all for it. 681 00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 5: And ultimately, I think for us it was like I 682 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,639 think and Bill you were hitting on this earlier, like 683 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:02,440 having the access to a family who is in this 684 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:04,880 limbo about a cold. 685 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 7: Case and about a family member and not having the 686 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,920 answers and this lingering trauma from all of that and 687 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,599 what it does to all the parties at play was 688 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,239 really important and we didn't want that to be lost, 689 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,599 and that was what our primary storyline was to begin with, 690 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,679 and We always honored that, even when the case became 691 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,360 more active and there's more interest in the clues and 692 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,719 stuff like that, for us on our team and also 693 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,079 with Stephen, it's like, it's still about It's still about 694 00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:41,800 the process, it's still about the family, and that always 695 00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:49,360 was what we made for us important to continue to follow. 696 00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 4: And I think that's ultimately what does come out most 697 00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:56,880 in our episode where we sat and deconstructed everything. Knowing 698 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,719 Jennifer's case and the whereabouts and the wise and the 699 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,519 where of it all is great. But what really came 700 00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:04,679 across to me, and I kept saying to Bill over 701 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,360 and over, is how very much I feel for Steven, 702 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,840 how empathetic I felt about all of this. And part 703 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,280 of that is just because nobody should have to go 704 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,199 through this. Also part of it is I've watched Bill 705 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,719 go through it. I know it. I just felt an 706 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,119 enormous amount of empathy and sympathy to the point where 707 00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:23,159 I couldn't binge it all at once. Normally I would, 708 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,519 but I couldn't do it all at once. I had 709 00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:28,000 to divide it up over two days because it just 710 00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:31,320 felt at times this is so emotional and so wrenching, 711 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:33,440 and that I couldn't manage to do it all at once. 712 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,239 If that is your ultimate goal, from my point of view, 713 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:38,440 you achieved it. 714 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,119 Speaker 2: I guess last question for both of you is what's 715 00:39:41,199 --> 00:39:42,559 next for the two of you? 716 00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 6: Oh gosh. For me, it's just about moving forward, still 717 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,119 doing what I can for Jennifer, but moving forward and 718 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:54,280 being at peace knowing that I've done all I can 719 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,840 do for me. That's all I ever wanted to know. 720 00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,920 All this in the absence of justice for my sister 721 00:40:03,119 --> 00:40:05,599 and the Alemabus piece, Cynthia. 722 00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:07,559 Speaker 4: What's next for you? I know it's probably got to 723 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:10,000 feel a little I asked you off air, does this 724 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:12,840 feel exciting or does it feel anti climactic now that 725 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,280 you've got it out there in this process of so 726 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:16,159 many years work? 727 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:17,119 Speaker 5: Yeah? 728 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 4: What are you doing now? 729 00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:21,199 Speaker 7: Yes? Even, and I've talked about that a little bit. 730 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,639 I feel lost, like unmoored almost. And filmmakers will say this, 731 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,960 you don't know. Filmmakers will say that you have to 732 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,639 abandon the story, that this story never concludes. 733 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 5: It's one of those. 734 00:40:33,079 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 7: Things where I don't want to feel like we've abandoned 735 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,440 this storyline or Jennifer's story. And I's still very much present, 736 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,000 because I still think that there's things that that we 737 00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:45,440 haven't told. There are things that in the back of 738 00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:50,440 my brain that keep it alive and wanting to continue 739 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,760 with this story. But I'm a need to have work 740 00:40:54,800 --> 00:41:00,280 that pays, so I am working on other contents and 741 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,119 I was hired by NASCAR to do a series about 742 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,280 nine year olds that race at a dirt track outside 743 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,519 of Charlotte, and that's been very different and really fun. 744 00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,920 So it's nice to have that balance between serious, more 745 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,440 serious material and something that is not. But surprisingly this 746 00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,480 is pretty become pretty serious. 747 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 2: I was thinking that we was going to have a 748 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,480 lighter tone. Yeah. 749 00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 7: And the other thing that I've been doing with two 750 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,239 team members of mine, Claire Johnson, who films with me 751 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,840 all the time, she's a cinematographer, and Sandra Davidson, who 752 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,079 is a producer. We've been going to the Ozarks filming 753 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,639 with bigfoot hunters, and so. 754 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 5: That has been a real gift. 755 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 7: Actually you get to go camping and off grid, and 756 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:55,199 so it allows me to really disconnect and to think 757 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,599 about life in a really different way. And surprisingly, like 758 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,960 how a lot of these stories overlap and interesting and 759 00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,920 unique ways, is that this is a story about the pursuit. 760 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,920 It's a story about a journey, and I find myself 761 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,639 telling a lot of those kinds of stories. 762 00:42:12,119 --> 00:42:13,119 Speaker 4: That is very cool. 763 00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 2: I look forward to actual footage of Bigfoot in that case. 764 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,679 Speaker 4: That is going to do it. For this episode of 765 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,840 mind Over Murder. Burden of Proof is available on HBO 766 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,960 Max or I guess we're just calling it Max now. 767 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,880 Burden of Proof is available on Max. We do encourage 768 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:34,960 you to stream it. Thank you so much for listening 769 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,519 to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you 770 00:42:37,559 --> 00:42:38,039 next time. 771 00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:51,079 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 772 00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:52,559 Another Dog Productions. 773 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 774 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 775 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 2: Theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 776 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 777 00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 778 00:43:10,519 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders. 779 00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:17,119 Speaker 2: On Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on 780 00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:19,440 Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 781 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,039 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.