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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan.
Speaker 7: Zupanski, Good evening. Have you ever been locked in a
Speaker 7: cooler with piles of decomposing humans for so long that
Speaker 7: you had to shave all the hair off your boss
Speaker 7: in order to get rid of the smell? Joseph Scott Morgan?
Speaker 2: Did?
Speaker 7: Have you ever lit a Marlborough from the ignited gas
Speaker 7: of a bloated dead man's belly? Joseph Scott Morgan?
Speaker 2: Has?
Speaker 7: Have you ever wept over a dead dog while not
Speaker 7: giving a shit about the dead owner laying next to him? Morgan?
Speaker 2: Did?
Speaker 7: Were you named after a murder victim? Joseph Scott Morgan was?
Speaker 7: This isn't Hollywood fantasy. It's the true story of a
Speaker 7: boy born into the deprivations of a white trash trailer park, who,
Speaker 7: as an adult, gets further involved in the desperate back
Speaker 7: door sagas of the New South. No hot blondes here,
Speaker 7: just maggots, grief, and the truth about forensics and death investigation.
Speaker 7: Joseph Scott Morgan became a death investigator with the Jefferson
Speaker 7: Parish Corner's Office in suburban New Orleans in nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 7: the youngest medical legal death investigator in the country. During
Speaker 7: the day, Morgan worked in the morgue and at night
Speaker 7: investigtion for the coroner. In nineteen ninety two, Morgan became
Speaker 7: senior investigator with the Fulton County Medical Examiner's Office in Atlanta.
Speaker 7: Morgan is now the professor at Jacksonville State University in Alabama,
Speaker 7: where he teaches a death investigation course based on the
Speaker 7: National Standards, which he helped develop. The book that we're
Speaker 7: featuring this evening is Blood Beneath My Feet, The Journey
Speaker 7: of a Southern Death Investigator, with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 7: and author, Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome to the program and
Speaker 7: thank you very much for a Greenness interview. Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2: Good evening, Dan, thanks for having me. It's a real honor.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. I hope that I made that
Speaker 7: correction in the where you are now working as a
Speaker 7: college professor at the University of Jacksonville. Yeah, at State
Speaker 7: University Jacksonville.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jacksonville State University in eastern Alabama, where about ninety
Speaker 2: minutes from west of downtown Atlanta, So just across the
Speaker 2: border into the Central Central time zone, which I prefer
Speaker 2: over the Eastern. So there you go.
Speaker 7: You are all over Facebook and the Internet. I just
Speaker 7: saw recently, and this is part of a series I believe,
Speaker 7: but some appearances on HLN as a guest commentator talking
Speaker 7: about the Jeffrey Epstein episode. In this episode tell us
Speaker 7: what else that you are all over the place commenting
Speaker 7: about tell us where else they can see you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I do quite a bit of work
Speaker 2: with hile. I've got a lot of friends there. I
Speaker 2: been working there for since, I guess, appearing since about
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, I think on the twentieth of October. New
Speaker 2: series is premiering called The Dead Wives Club, and it's
Speaker 2: a platform form for Lorraine broco viewer. I mean listeners
Speaker 2: are might remember her from The Sopranos and of course
Speaker 2: from Goodfellows, and she's the host of the show and
Speaker 2: in the first episode, I'll actually be discussing the death
Speaker 2: death of Natalie Wood and I'm the medical legal expert
Speaker 2: on that. And then I appear on Dan Abrams Law
Speaker 2: and Crime Network out of Manhattan. I'm a commentator forends,
Speaker 2: It's commentator there. I do that two to three days
Speaker 2: a week, I guess, for about three hours at a time.
Speaker 2: We do live court coverage there occasionally Court TV, uh,
Speaker 2: and then a variety of other you know, podcasts and
Speaker 2: this sort of thing. And then of course that's in
Speaker 2: addition to my teaching duties and my research into the
Speaker 2: corner system in America.
Speaker 7: So luckily you're retired, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, but you know it's a you know, Dan,
Speaker 2: it's a healthy busy for me. It truly is. It's
Speaker 2: almost purgative in a way. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, certainly, as you do write in this incredible book.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about your great uncle Joe and your background,
Speaker 7: where you come from, and the things in your life
Speaker 7: that shaped you. Before we talk about how you became
Speaker 7: this death investigator by your own choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Uh, Blood Beneath my Feet was, you know,
Speaker 2: was a therapeutic work and when I started started the
Speaker 2: story out, uh, you know, started telling my tale. My
Speaker 2: uncle Joe had always been a presence in my life.
Speaker 2: And interestingly enough, he was a homicide victim that had
Speaker 2: actually died I think just over a decade before I
Speaker 2: was born. But when I was born, he held such
Speaker 2: a place of honor in my family. I was named
Speaker 2: after him, and so he was. He was a one
Speaker 2: of one of six children on my paternal grandmother's side
Speaker 2: of the family, and her brother the oldest, the eldest,
Speaker 2: and she dearly loved him. And he was a union
Speaker 2: rep in Louisiana, and uh he was in charge of painting, uh,
Speaker 2: giving contracts for painting. And there was a bridge in
Speaker 2: Louisiana that was had a large amount of money that
Speaker 2: was attached to it, and actually it linked Faraday, Louisiana,
Speaker 2: the home of Jerry Lee Lewis to to Mississippi. And
Speaker 2: this one fellow put in for the bid didn't get it.
Speaker 2: And so my uncle was in West Monroe, Louisiana. People
Speaker 2: might know that from Doug Dynasty at the I've ever
Speaker 2: watched that program years ago. He was back in the
Speaker 2: fifties getting his haircut on a I think it was
Speaker 2: a Saturday morning and he stepped out into the street.
Speaker 2: Fellow that felt he had been wronged by my uncle
Speaker 2: was waiting in a barroom across the street. Walked in,
Speaker 2: walked out into the street, called his name, and proceeded
Speaker 2: to gunning down in the middle of the street with
Speaker 2: a thirty eight caliber revolver. My uncle crawling beneath a car,
Speaker 2: you know, freshly cut hair, nicely closed. And he died,
Speaker 2: you know, on that dirty street, beneath that old car
Speaker 2: he was trying to get into to escape his own death.
Speaker 2: And and you know I was named after this man,
Speaker 2: and so it was. It was an interesting linkage for me,
Speaker 2: I think, and early on I thought about him, even
Speaker 2: as a small child. I remember thinking of him almost
Speaker 2: in heroic terms. You know that that he you know,
Speaker 2: that he died. It was striking to me as as
Speaker 2: a young child.
Speaker 7: You write the arrest and the sanity hearing in the
Speaker 7: trial was front page news for months, What happened to
Speaker 7: the killer of your grandfather? And uh, well, you know,
Speaker 7: to the people, I've got this, I've traveled very crooked road.
Speaker 2: I think even before I was born that the this
Speaker 2: fellow was was uh uh acquitted essentially, well he was
Speaker 2: his prison term was uh. He was exonerated essentially and
Speaker 2: released by the governor. And the governor is famous, uh
Speaker 2: famously known in Louisiana as the brother of Huey Pelong.
Speaker 2: He this particular governor was portrayed in a movie called
Speaker 2: Blaze by by uh Paul Newman many years ago. And
Speaker 2: he was just that crazy uh. And you know, my
Speaker 2: my family felt like they didn't get justice in this trial. Uh.
Speaker 2: This fellow was plugged in politically, and as all people
Speaker 2: are one way or another in Louisiana. And h interestingly enough,
Speaker 2: my my grandmother in her uh and her sisters would
Speaker 2: send a black wreath to this man's home every single
Speaker 2: year on the anniversary of my uncle Joseph's murder. And
Speaker 2: so that you know, that thread kind of runs through
Speaker 2: I think my family there was always a you know,
Speaker 2: a weeping, if you will. I think that silently went
Speaker 2: on and even to the day that all those sisters
Speaker 2: died and they're all dead now that generation's gone. Uh,
Speaker 2: there was a cloud that kind of you know, hung
Speaker 2: over them because of this homicide. You know that they
Speaker 2: felt like he was never uh, he never avenged essentially,
Speaker 2: and and so that that travels down through time. My
Speaker 2: father was my grandmother's only only child, and he was
Speaker 2: born later in life to my to my grandmother, and
Speaker 2: he he had this kind of interesting background. He was
Speaker 2: doted on by his mother and abused by his father
Speaker 2: there in North Louisiana. They had a horse ranch and farm,
Speaker 2: and he was beaten regularly. Well, he grew up mean,
Speaker 2: grew up, grew ups, you know, spoiled and mean, and
Speaker 2: that translated into his adult life. He's a very violent,
Speaker 2: very violent fellow. And he and my mother wed when
Speaker 2: they were very young. I think he was eighteen, My
Speaker 2: mother was seventeen. She by the time she was eighteen,
Speaker 2: she was given birth to me. And there was always
Speaker 2: a residue of violence that existed with him. He was
Speaker 2: a scary you know, gary man, particularly back in his
Speaker 2: younger days, and until that that you know, that culminated.
Speaker 2: I think uh in uh uh. When I was about
Speaker 2: six five or six, he you know, he came came
Speaker 2: to my grandmother's house, you know, with a belly full
Speaker 2: of bourbon, and he had a sought off Ivor Johnson
Speaker 2: double barrel shotgun and he was proclaiming he was going
Speaker 2: to kill the whole family. And I was in the house,
Speaker 2: actually in the backyard, playing in a sand that my
Speaker 2: grandpa had had acquired for me, a big pile of sand.
Speaker 2: What kid doesn't love that, you know, And they heard
Speaker 2: him scream into the driveway. My grandmother ran out and
Speaker 2: he was shouting, you know, calling down the thunder from God,
Speaker 2: I guess, and you know, and I have vivid memories
Speaker 2: of her pulling me in the house and locking the door,
Speaker 2: and my grandfather was already in the house. Uh. And
Speaker 2: she thrust me under the bed, and you know, I
Speaker 2: can still have a memory and I write about it,
Speaker 2: and blood beneath my feet of looking out from beneath
Speaker 2: the bed, and you could see her knees as she
Speaker 2: was beside the bed, praying, you know, asking God to
Speaker 2: save her from her own son. And it was that
Speaker 2: imprinted in my memory, you know, long after that. It
Speaker 2: stayed with me for years and years. Then and he,
Speaker 2: you know, he was throwing heavy metal furniture, you know,
Speaker 2: against against the back of the house. He's screaming out
Speaker 2: for his father's blood, that he was going to come
Speaker 2: in and kill us, and kill his father in particular,
Speaker 2: the man that had treated him so roughly as a child,
Speaker 2: and he blasted off the shotgun a couple of times
Speaker 2: and it, you know, in the interim they had called.
Speaker 2: Back then, you couldn't call nine to one one. This
Speaker 2: is back in the late sixties. They called zero and
Speaker 2: the deputy sheriffs and washingtof pair showed up. And I
Speaker 2: remember them, really, you know, taking my father to school.
Speaker 2: I have an image of him with blood, you know,
Speaker 2: coming off out of his nose. I looked out the
Speaker 2: window of my grandma's living room and he was in
Speaker 2: he was handcuffed, and uh, I think I talked about
Speaker 2: stalwart men in khaki uniforms and straw cowboy hats, you know,
Speaker 2: and they became my heroes, you know. I saw what
Speaker 2: they had done. They walked into into this situation and
Speaker 2: drug him away and uh, you know, and hauled him
Speaker 2: off to the to the parish that we don't have
Speaker 2: counties in Louisiana, parish lock up and there, you know,
Speaker 2: the rest of his life was set in motion. Back then,
Speaker 2: they used to tell tell young violent men, you got
Speaker 2: one or two choices, you know, you either go to
Speaker 2: the penitentiary he joined wrinkle, and go to Vietnam, and
Speaker 2: he he decided to join the Corps.
Speaker 7: Now, what happens with your mother? You introduced a character
Speaker 7: named Bruce. Look like it seemed like answers to everybody's
Speaker 7: problems right at that time. Tell us about Bruce Bruce
Speaker 7: and your life with Bruce. And after your dad was
Speaker 7: in the military and gone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when when my father got home from from Vietnam,
Speaker 2: he was probably in from his service in Marine Corps
Speaker 2: is probably more damage than when he went in. And
Speaker 2: he promptly moved us to Georgia from Louisianna. And you
Speaker 2: have to keep in mind, my grandmother had essentially been
Speaker 2: raising me. My mother worked full time. We lived in
Speaker 2: a trailer that was on their part property and UH
Speaker 2: and you know, on my grandparents' property. And he being
Speaker 2: you know, he had he had talked about moving to
Speaker 2: UH when he got out of the Marine Corps. He's
Speaker 2: going to move us to Australia. He was going to
Speaker 2: do construction down there, takes us out to la and
Speaker 2: then finally, for whatever reason, he settled on Georgia. And
Speaker 2: I had cousins that were already living in Georgia. Georgia
Speaker 2: even back then around the Atlanta area was booming and
Speaker 2: this was you know, the early seventies. It took us there,
Speaker 2: and uh, I guess probably within eighteen months of us
Speaker 2: moving to Georgia, he promptly abandoned my mother and I.
Speaker 2: I mean, we had nothing. We were living in a
Speaker 2: trailer park run you know by this old man that
Speaker 2: you know, was an interesting character to say the least.
Speaker 2: And my mother very still, very young, very beautiful, and
Speaker 2: she was trying to make her way, you know, as
Speaker 2: best she could. And she was working for a textile
Speaker 2: company and she met this guy that was in sales
Speaker 2: that happened to be there, and he was refined. He
Speaker 2: was everything that my father was not. He was college educated,
Speaker 2: appeared to be successful, but he had this kind of
Speaker 2: thread of hyper religiosity that ran through him. And this
Speaker 2: is kind of a theme that runs through blood beneath
Speaker 2: my feet. There's this, you know, this kind of worrying
Speaker 2: that I do, you know, growing up as a Southern
Speaker 2: evangelical uh in that you know, in that timeframe of
Speaker 2: my life, Uh, you know, you're you're fighting to try
Speaker 2: to be obedient to your parents and to what you
Speaker 2: perceived God wants you to do with your life, and
Speaker 2: then you're fighting for your own survival. I don't know,
Speaker 2: you know, this sort of thing. I don't know if
Speaker 2: I can endure this any longer. And so for me,
Speaker 2: he uh, you know, he he entered my world, Bruce did,
Speaker 2: and uh it was all you know, uh all fine
Speaker 2: and dandy at first. He was wound my mother, uh
Speaker 2: you know visa v you know, through me essentially, you know,
Speaker 2: promising me things that I'd never had, going to pro
Speaker 2: pro ball games and college football games and taking us out.
Speaker 2: And we were living on Blowney Sandwich is living in
Speaker 2: a house trailer d. I mean, we had nothing, and
Speaker 2: my mother saw it as a as a way for
Speaker 2: us to kind of pull ourselves out of this this
Speaker 2: horrible situation that we were kind of living in because
Speaker 2: I mean we you know, we didn't have have dom
Speaker 2: one and hardly had any food. And uh, you know,
Speaker 2: she married him, wound up marrying him very quickly and
Speaker 2: Helson follower.
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Speaker 3: Comillberg's Necessary where I lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 2: Thereafter with him, I think I received probably I think
Speaker 2: I was. They married when I was nine. He beat
Speaker 2: me for the first time two months after they were married,
Speaker 2: and then it continued on. You know, I guess until
Speaker 2: you know severely, you know, until I was probably fourteen
Speaker 2: or so.
Speaker 7: So you've come from needless to say, a background of abuse.
Speaker 7: How do you get to overcoming this to become and
Speaker 7: first work for a coroner in New Orleans? How do
Speaker 7: you get to a death investigator? How do you tell
Speaker 7: us about that? Well?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know. The thing about it is this,
Speaker 2: I'd always been told by my views or Bruce that
Speaker 2: I was I was never going to amount anything, that
Speaker 2: I was worthless, And of course the old thing that
Speaker 2: comes through is you're going to wind up just like
Speaker 2: your dad. And I've fought that my entire life. My
Speaker 2: wife will say, there's no need to fight that fight anymore,
Speaker 2: you know, God bless her. You know she tells me that,
Speaker 2: and you know she has to still to this day,
Speaker 2: has to tell me that I'm a success, you know,
Speaker 2: because that it's amazing. What should kind of imprint on
Speaker 2: your kids, you know when you're little, you know when
Speaker 2: you hear that or those children that are in your charge.
Speaker 2: And so that was always imprinted in my psyche, and
Speaker 2: so I always thought it. And when I took this
Speaker 2: kind of circuitous route, wound up back down in kind
Speaker 2: of where our ancestral home is, down in South Louisiana.
Speaker 2: I was born in North Louisiana, but all of my
Speaker 2: family lived in South Louisiana, in the New Orleans area,
Speaker 2: and I had uncles down there and extended family, and
Speaker 2: I finally wound up down there, showed up in town
Speaker 2: with nothing. Essentially. I tried college, didn't do too well.
Speaker 2: I was in the National Guard and the Army and
Speaker 2: kind of transferred to Guard membership was down there with them,
Speaker 2: and I was really just seeking. I happened to be
Speaker 2: working in a hospital and the parish at that particular
Speaker 2: time this is in I guess probably about eighty four
Speaker 2: maybe the parish was renovating their morgue and it was unsustainable,
Speaker 2: you know, it was just horrible. It was. The morgue
Speaker 2: was actually built on the site of the old gallows
Speaker 2: and down in Gretton and Louisiana where the Jefferson Parish
Speaker 2: Corners Office was at one time headquartered, and they actually
Speaker 2: used to do at the parish level, you know, public
Speaker 2: executions there back in the eighteen hundreds, and the morgue
Speaker 2: itself was built into the prison and so you had
Speaker 2: to go through actual security to get into the morgue. Well,
Speaker 2: they were trying to renovate this thing to make it
Speaker 2: viable more. It's very expensive and they wanted to try
Speaker 2: to maintain this thing until they could come up with
Speaker 2: a better solution. So the Corner's office started doing autopsies
Speaker 2: at the hospital that I happened to be working at,
Speaker 2: and I was working as I first started off as
Speaker 2: a security guardener I started working as an er tech
Speaker 2: while I was going to college down there, and I
Speaker 2: was very young, I guess I was twenty maybe twenty one, yes,
Speaker 2: And I just started bringing bodies in and out of
Speaker 2: the Morgan. I became friends with one of the corner investigators.
Speaker 2: He turns out to be one of the finest forensic
Speaker 2: scientists that I've ever known, one of the finest investigators
Speaker 2: that I've ever known. He and I became fast friends,
Speaker 2: and I found myself, of all things, showing up and
Speaker 2: you know you're in trouble when you do this. I
Speaker 2: was actually showing up to autopsies on my free time.
Speaker 2: I wasn't getting paid, and I was in that morgue
Speaker 2: day in and day out cleaning. I'd just mop up
Speaker 2: blood and maggots and you know, clean the morgue. I
Speaker 2: tell my college students, now you know, they said, Professor Morgan,
Speaker 2: I want to do what you did for a living.
Speaker 2: How'd you start? And said, I volunteered. And you can
Speaker 2: see they're countance immediately drop because they have an expectation
Speaker 2: they're going to be paid for whatever they want to do.
Speaker 2: And so I became a deaner, which is actually translates
Speaker 2: from German to servant, and it's a term that you
Speaker 2: used for people that prosect bodies were the ones that
Speaker 2: actually put the coal stial to bodies, and it just
Speaker 2: it kind of evolved. I found out I had a
Speaker 2: natural talent at it, and they first allowed me to
Speaker 2: close bodies, which is just using a standard old baseball
Speaker 2: stitch that's putting all of the organs back in the
Speaker 2: body in a big plastic bag. I'm sure a lot
Speaker 2: of your true crime listeners are very familiar. They've heard
Speaker 2: about autopsies before. And then finally I graduated to opening bodies,
Speaker 2: and there was a position that came open as a
Speaker 2: corner investigator and I had started doing this. I started
Speaker 2: dissecting in nineteen eighty five. And it turns out these
Speaker 2: people my life. It's weird how life is. You intersect
Speaker 2: with all of these people around along your path and
Speaker 2: you don't really realize it. And a guy that was
Speaker 2: working there, some listeners might be familiar with him. He
Speaker 2: was at the end of his careers named doctor William Eckert,
Speaker 2: and he's one of them US renowned forensic pathologists in
Speaker 2: the country. He's deceased now and I started actually working
Speaker 2: with him as an older fellow, and he, uh, he
Speaker 2: taught me a lot. Uh. I learned a lot from
Speaker 2: all of the forensic pathologists that I work with worked with,
Speaker 2: and I applied for a job as a corner investigator
Speaker 2: I think three times, and the two people that got
Speaker 2: the job before me only last at six months each.
Speaker 2: And dude, I was still you know, I was still
Speaker 2: going to the morgue to dissect bodies. And they said, well,
Speaker 2: let's give this kid a chance. You know, he's he's
Speaker 2: there every single day. He's not really we're not paying
Speaker 2: him anything. And in the meantime, in addition to that,
Speaker 2: at night I would go out on scenes with the
Speaker 2: corner investigator when I wasn't working, just to carry you know,
Speaker 2: just to carry his equipment, you know, to help him
Speaker 2: take He would teach me photography, taught me everything. And
Speaker 2: of course they were using me to discut work too,
Speaker 2: because I was crawling, crawling under houses to drag out
Speaker 2: maggot infat bodies, and I just you know, and I
Speaker 2: think looking back on it, people will say, you know,
Speaker 2: how could you do that? Well? I would always say
Speaker 2: to myself, Dan that look, uh, you know, And I
Speaker 2: think I mentioned this in the in the chapter called
Speaker 2: for Scythia in the book. You know, magn infested body,
Speaker 2: it's not Bruce. Uh, you know, brain splattered on the wall,
Speaker 2: it's not Bruce.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, uh tortured female nipples cut off, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: sexually abused with a whiskey bottle. I had a case
Speaker 2: like that. It's still not Bruce. I can handle this,
Speaker 2: and no one else wanted the job, and so I
Speaker 2: found myself in an odd position as a very very
Speaker 2: young man. I truly didn't have any business doing the
Speaker 2: job I was doing at the age I was at
Speaker 2: because I had these older investigators that soon would look
Speaker 2: to me for advice as far as the medical legal
Speaker 2: perspective went, and where I really gleaned my education. And
Speaker 2: even though I have a graduate grewing forensic science, the
Speaker 2: best education I ever got was the morgue. I mean
Speaker 2: it was it's you know, there's an old adage that
Speaker 2: says see one, do one, teach one, and after you've dissected,
Speaker 2: prosected as many human cadavers as I participated in and dissected,
Speaker 2: something's going to stick. And I read a lot on
Speaker 2: my own. This is before, way before the internet, is
Speaker 2: way before people even knew what the corner did, and
Speaker 2: certainly didn't know what went on an autopsy room. I
Speaker 2: just it was my classroom, and it just opened a
Speaker 2: whole new world to me.
Speaker 7: You talk about the jobs that you have to do,
Speaker 7: and you talk and give examples in the book with
Speaker 7: your first death scene, which was in New Orleans. Just
Speaker 7: for example, again just to show the help of foundness,
Speaker 7: is this is the first death sine that you attend
Speaker 7: to in New Orleans. Tell us about this body that's
Speaker 7: there there for over a month. What do you encounter
Speaker 7: as you do and so graphically describing this book about
Speaker 7: the man with the schizophrenia on the first death sine,
Speaker 7: what do you find.
Speaker 2: If if I'm remembering remembering the story correctly, it's it's
Speaker 2: a it's kind of a it's a horrific scene in
Speaker 2: the sense that there's a sense of of of this
Speaker 2: absence absence of humanity is kind of the way you
Speaker 2: describe it, because you know, you begin to look at
Speaker 2: these bodies that are so decomposed and rotted and desiccated,
Speaker 2: and an absence of anything that that might have have
Speaker 2: given an indication of of of animals at any point
Speaker 2: in time. You know that that there there was just
Speaker 2: there's nothing nothing there for many people that that resembles
Speaker 2: a living, breathing human being. And and after you've done
Speaker 2: it for a while, and it shocks your system. You
Speaker 2: begin to I think, see their world come into focus,
Speaker 2: maybe more clearly than it's ever been in focus before.
Speaker 2: It goes to a greater a greater idea. And something
Speaker 2: that that I have still struggled with day in and
Speaker 2: day out, because I've spent so much time with death,
Speaker 2: is that death is stalking. Death is stalking us all
Speaker 2: all the time, and you never know when it's going
Speaker 2: to present itself. For me as a young man, uh
Speaker 2: when I, you know, would encounter particularly decomps. I had
Speaker 2: to get passed. I knew very early on. I had
Speaker 2: to get past my revulsion to what was being presented
Speaker 2: to me visually, what was being presented to me from
Speaker 2: an all factory sense, and you know, just you're inhaling,
Speaker 2: inhaling this, and at the end of the day, you're
Speaker 2: inhaling part of what they are. And even from an
Speaker 2: auditory sense, you if no one has ever heard a
Speaker 2: maggot husk pop, you can literally hear this, and you
Speaker 2: hear the buzzing of the flies that that light on you,
Speaker 2: that have previously been feasting on a body, and you
Speaker 2: become kind of one in this environment, and you better
Speaker 2: show up with your a game or it will begin
Speaker 2: to kind of to eat away you. You begin to
Speaker 2: slowly decompose, uh, you know, along with the body. You
Speaker 2: just do it at a slow rate because you still
Speaker 2: have your metabolic process, that's your crab cycle is still
Speaker 2: firing off in life. But there's there's kind of a
Speaker 2: there's kind of a lot of parallels here and and
Speaker 2: most most people in the workaday world have no appreciation
Speaker 2: for this there. They just they don't They don't have
Speaker 2: any concept of it that this this is happening day
Speaker 2: in and day out, that somewhere out there right now,
Speaker 2: there is some young medical legal death investigator that is
Speaker 2: hovering over a decomposing human being and they're having to
Speaker 2: make heads or tails of it, and you're very confused
Speaker 2: at that age. You feel like you don't know. And
Speaker 2: decomps are the worst because you always feel like the
Speaker 2: body is hiding something for you or that evidence has
Speaker 2: already you know, left the building if you will, because
Speaker 2: they're so far gone at that point.
Speaker 7: You include a story about assuming something when first encountering
Speaker 7: a situation, but you are trained to investigate fully. But
Speaker 7: you find a baby and then you have to obviously
Speaker 7: questioned the mother at first, it looks like it just
Speaker 7: might be a natural death. Tell us about what happens
Speaker 7: there and the kind of feelings that you're supposed to
Speaker 7: be impartial, not bring sympathy to the table as you
Speaker 7: write what happens in this particular case, despite your training.
Speaker 2: It is it's very it's very difficult, Dan, I think,
Speaker 2: for for for anyone. That is, you know, when you're
Speaker 2: when you're attempting to to try to make heads or
Speaker 2: tails out of out of what what has taken place,
Speaker 2: and you want to give you want to give give
Speaker 2: parents and people kind of the the benefit of the doubt,
Speaker 2: if you will, relative to to to you know what
Speaker 2: you're viewing, you know in real time, what what is
Speaker 2: it about about about the scene that you can draw
Speaker 2: your own conclusions but yet still remain as objective as possible.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that is you you have hell to pay
Speaker 2: with that because you're you can't you can't just simply
Speaker 2: you know, check check your uh, you know, check your
Speaker 2: your feelings at the door, your your humanity. I think
Speaker 2: if you will uh and and you know and and
Speaker 2: and it's it's very very difficult because of of the
Speaker 2: the the you you want to try to maintain an
Speaker 2: Arab objectivity. But there are just those moments in time
Speaker 2: where you, you know, you essentially want to rid the world.
Speaker 2: I think of of of certain people, you know, you,
Speaker 2: I think from Jump Street you you want to try
Speaker 2: to be able to you wish that your past had
Speaker 2: never crossed. Essentially, I think is is what it is.
Speaker 2: And when you're a child, a child of abuse, uh,
Speaker 2: it's it's particularly difficult in that uh in that uh
Speaker 2: you you have this uh you have this thing that
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of uh where you you see
Speaker 2: yourself as some kind of protector if you will, for
Speaker 2: for all all children, and uh, you know, to recover
Speaker 2: those things. And if I'm remembering this, this this story correctly, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I I roll it back to, uh, the
Speaker 2: the moment that that uh uh that my that my
Speaker 2: grandmother actually protected me by placing me beneath a bed,
Speaker 2: you know, in the face of what was happening with
Speaker 2: with my uh with my my own situation with my father,
Speaker 2: you know, protected me. But there's sometimes there's just there's
Speaker 2: there's not enough people out there too to protect them.
Speaker 2: When I was little, you know, my mother would and
Speaker 2: you know, I had terrible uh, terrible earaches. And she
Speaker 2: would rock me, and she would sing the whole song
Speaker 2: called Down in the Valley, and it would bring a
Speaker 2: lot of peace to me and soothing. And you have
Speaker 2: children out there that as bad as my childhood was,
Speaker 2: you still come across what what remains of these children
Speaker 2: that are abused and abandoned and and people move on
Speaker 2: from them, and they they're never remembered. And and but
Speaker 2: for me as a medical legal death investigator, I do
Speaker 2: remember them, you know, I do remember. I do remember.
Speaker 2: Uh you know what what the parents failed to do
Speaker 2: or what what they did do by uh, you know,
Speaker 2: just their their sins of uh of comission. You know
Speaker 2: that that they brutalize children and do horrible things to them,
Speaker 2: but yet they go on about their life. But that
Speaker 2: little life is snuffed out, and it's it's very hard
Speaker 2: to kind of reconcile in your own brain, I think
Speaker 2: many times. And it leaves scars. It certainly leaves scars.
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Speaker 7: As you write in the book, the hardest thing to
Speaker 7: get out of your mind and the hardest thing to
Speaker 7: do as you as your role as a death investigator
Speaker 7: is to the notification of next of kin. A particular
Speaker 7: case that that you bring up is a trip that
Speaker 7: you had with someone as a friend and a mentor
Speaker 7: named Bill Donovan and his friend, which was a federal
Speaker 7: judge named Lance Mitchell. This story clearly illustrates and demonstrates
Speaker 7: how hard it is doing this job, and especially was
Speaker 7: probably pivotable in you leaving this job sooner than you
Speaker 7: might have tell us about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah it. Bill, the fellow I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 2: was my mentor. And as in many things in life,
Speaker 2: you when you become friends with people, you inherit their
Speaker 2: friends essentially, or you you struck up relationships peripheral to
Speaker 2: that individual. And that's what happened with Bills friend, Lance
Speaker 2: and I write about this particular case and we were
Speaker 2: you know, I'm from Louisiana, so that you know by
Speaker 2: default that automatically makes me an al shoe fan. Uh
Speaker 2: Louisiana State University and his father. Lance's father and who
Speaker 2: was also a big influence in Bill's life, was federal
Speaker 2: judge and had was a part of a lot of
Speaker 2: the early civil rights decisions in the South of UH
Speaker 2: safeguarding uh the rights of African Americans. He'd been threatened
Speaker 2: on numerous occasions by the Klan over the years, back
Speaker 2: in the sixties, and was very stalwart. And he was
Speaker 2: just this, you know. He would his dad, the federal judge,
Speaker 2: you know, and I write about in the book. He
Speaker 2: would he would arrive at the campus at l s U.
Speaker 2: And he was like this kind of demi god, you know,
Speaker 2: when you show up, everybody pull up a uh, pull
Speaker 2: up a chair for him and poured him a a
Speaker 2: couple of fingers of bourbon, you know, and uh the
Speaker 2: tales would start to be told. And that's kind of
Speaker 2: the part of you know, being a Southern storyteller. Uh
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, wo would like ants. I became
Speaker 2: friends with him, and Lance was somewhat of an interesting character.
Speaker 2: He was kind of playboy judge's son, you know, and
Speaker 2: he he he he never got into you know, big
Speaker 2: trouble or anything. He was just he was one of
Speaker 2: the cool kids, you know that, but he was. He
Speaker 2: was affable, you know, and a real Southern gentleman. And
Speaker 2: uh he had finally, after all this time, had settled
Speaker 2: settled on a on a young lady, and uh we
Speaker 2: felt as though they were, you know, going to be
Speaker 2: a great match. And Bill had tiny little house that
Speaker 2: he was renting at the time, he and his wife.
Speaker 2: But what was really great about it, particularly in South
Speaker 2: Louisiana was it so bloody hot is the fact that
Speaker 2: he had a swimming pool. And so any party that
Speaker 2: was to be had, it would be had at Bill's house.
Speaker 2: And it was a Memorial Day and we had we
Speaker 2: had gathered together and uh, Bill and I obviously were
Speaker 2: both off duty, and Lance had come. We had hot
Speaker 2: dogs and beers and sat around and you know, just
Speaker 2: on a Memorial Day and just really enjoyed the fellowship
Speaker 2: with one another and laughing and carrying on like we
Speaker 2: always did. And it's one of those moments in time
Speaker 2: for me. I can't you know, obviously, everybody's journey is different.
Speaker 2: I can't speak for anybody else, but when I look
Speaker 2: back on it, you you know, it sounds rather Pollyanna,
Speaker 2: you know, to talk about. You see how fleeting life
Speaker 2: is and you don't understand all these intersections and this
Speaker 2: sort of thing. And you really don't though, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's that's about as real as it gets. You don't
Speaker 2: You don't know when the last time you're going to
Speaker 2: see somebody is that that is, at least in the
Speaker 2: state of living. And so you for me, with Lance,
Speaker 2: he and Bill were like brothers, and there was a general,
Speaker 2: a general love that these two had for them. And
Speaker 2: I happened to be on duty. I guess it was.
Speaker 2: I can't remember now, my mind fails me at this point,
Speaker 2: but it was a week later maybe, I think, And
Speaker 2: I got a call from the local hospital when I
Speaker 2: was on duty. It was in the evening and Lance
Speaker 2: had a car that had t tops in it and
Speaker 2: he straightened out a curve coming off of it in
Speaker 2: New Orleans and both he and his girlfriend were ejected
Speaker 2: from a vehicle. And what normally happens with a Corners
Speaker 2: call in a violent death is anybody that dies of violence,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's homicide or accident or whatever. The
Speaker 2: case of suicide, it doesn't matter that the emergency room
Speaker 2: staff has to call Corner's office and the corner investigator
Speaker 2: on duty, you know, will answer the phone and most
Speaker 2: of the time respond even to the er, not just
Speaker 2: to the scene, because we like to gather as much information.
Speaker 2: And it was one of those kind of moments that
Speaker 2: stands still in time, and you know, I probably had
Speaker 2: I don't know, I've probably already taken maybe ten other
Speaker 2: deaks that night, you know, over the course of just
Speaker 2: doing what I did as a corner investigator. Some I
Speaker 2: had to go out on scenes. On others I did,
Speaker 2: and some I had to go to the hospitals. And
Speaker 2: for that moment time she said, yeah, we've got two
Speaker 2: victims here, both in MBA's ejections. The male's name is Lance,
Speaker 2: and I remember writing that down and then she said Mitchell.
Speaker 2: And it was one of those moments literally where I said,
Speaker 2: can you repeat that name? And I said, he's a
Speaker 2: white male, and then she gave his state of birth
Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm I'm head of the hospital now,
Speaker 2: and I got in my vehicle and grab my thin kit,
Speaker 2: you know, just like I was going to homicide. And
Speaker 2: I remember driving over there and and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: you walk in to these emergency room trauma rooms and
Speaker 2: then if you've never been in one, they're they're like
Speaker 2: a surgical suite. The suite almost because and this is
Speaker 2: the only reason it begins and here ends here they
Speaker 2: have these very bright surgical lights. It almost gives us
Speaker 2: artificial luminescence. So it's kind of eerie and uh uh
Speaker 2: uh in a weird kind of way, the lighting in there,
Speaker 2: and it shows things that you don't It super enhances
Speaker 2: your vision, I think. Uh. And there he was head
Speaker 2: was bandaged, but his head was misshapen, and I knew
Speaker 2: it was Lynce. Uh. You know when I eyevollwed him
Speaker 2: uh and his his fiancee lay on a gurney in
Speaker 2: the adjacent room, and again she had severe head trauma.
Speaker 2: And I remember having to go tell Bill what had happened.
Speaker 2: And I didn't want to have to go to the
Speaker 2: judge's home to do this because I'd been to the
Speaker 2: judges home many times and Bill was almost like family
Speaker 2: with them. But over the course of my career, as
Speaker 2: kind of an aside part of the whole process of
Speaker 2: notification of x skin, like you mentioned, it actually falls
Speaker 2: to the medical legal death investigator. I've done I think
Speaker 2: close to two thousand by the end of my career
Speaker 2: where you physically either go to the emergency room or
Speaker 2: you go in person to a home and notify people.
Speaker 2: And these are on all kinds of deaths. It's not,
Speaker 2: you know, corners don't just simply what commid. Homicides are
Speaker 2: very small portion of what we do when people die
Speaker 2: of other reasons, and it never gets easy. The last
Speaker 2: one I ever did was just as hard as the
Speaker 2: first one. It's not one of these things that you know,
Speaker 2: you developed special muscles for h And Bill I called him,
Speaker 2: woke him up out of a dead sleep, and I
Speaker 2: remember just telling you, man Land is dead. You know
Speaker 2: he's dead. And we had the ability to talk very
Speaker 2: frankly with one another as fellow medical legal death investigators.
Speaker 2: And immediately said I'm going to Judge's house right now.
Speaker 2: And he left, no weeping, nothing. And then the next
Speaker 2: time I heard from Bill was probably three hours later,
Speaker 2: and he was roaring drunk. And Bill had duty, He
Speaker 2: had duty that day that means that he was going
Speaker 2: to be working as a dealer. And he called me
Speaker 2: up and through his slurred speech, he, you know, he
Speaker 2: told me at that moment time that he would not
Speaker 2: be capable of doing these autopsies, and it was that
Speaker 2: it was a crossroads in my life, both in my
Speaker 2: physical and mental health. At this point time, I made
Speaker 2: a decision. This is one of the moments you can
Speaker 2: look back in time and say you should have chosen
Speaker 2: B instead of A. And being a stalwart, you know,
Speaker 2: flinty faced Southern mail that I was, that I could
Speaker 2: stand up anything. I said, don't worry, I'll rush in
Speaker 2: and do it. And I wound up dissecting these two
Speaker 2: people that I'd been eating hot dogs with the week before,
Speaker 2: and it affected me down to my soul more so
Speaker 2: than anything else that I ever did as a medical
Speaker 2: legal death investigator. And I'm talking about thousands and thousands
Speaker 2: of bodies that I've stood over, either on the street
Speaker 2: as a death investigator or in a morgue as a
Speaker 2: as an autopsy assistant pathology assistant. Nothing else ever affected
Speaker 2: me like that. And I you know, when I wrote
Speaker 2: Blood Beneath My Feet, I remember reflecting back because when
Speaker 2: you use you know that you hear it in Hollywood
Speaker 2: a lot. You'll hear those high speed saws that we
Speaker 2: use in the morgue. They're agitating saws. People have ever
Speaker 2: had a cast removed because Striker Saws, that's the brand.
Speaker 2: I like saying Scotch tape, but Striker is the most
Speaker 2: well known. And when I fired up that Striker saw
Speaker 2: to open both of their skulls or what remained, because
Speaker 2: their heads were pretty traumatized. The Striker saw creates a
Speaker 2: histamin it's a bone histe maman. It's very fine, and
Speaker 2: even if you're wearing a mask, you're still going to
Speaker 2: inhalate it. And I remember as I was writing blood
Speaker 2: beneath my feet and kind of weeping over the keys,
Speaker 2: if you will, I remember thinking back to kind of
Speaker 2: at that moment time I was literally inhalating my friend
Speaker 2: or you know, what was left of his mortal shell.
Speaker 2: And it was very powerful for me, I think reflectively,
Speaker 2: and you know, Dan, at the time that I was
Speaker 2: doing this, it was really hard. It was harder reflectively
Speaker 2: for me. I wept. I wept for a couple of days.
Speaker 2: I went into a really deep spot after I wrote
Speaker 2: that chapter. It was very, very difficult, very difficult. But there,
Speaker 2: you know, there's no one else. We're a very small community.
Speaker 2: Then within the medical legal community, you know, you got cops.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of homicide investigators that are out there,
Speaker 2: and God bless them, a lot of them my friends.
Speaker 2: But you know, for people like me, I think when
Speaker 2: I left the field in two thousand and five, there
Speaker 2: were collectively, and this is counting elected corners, deputy corners,
Speaker 2: medical examiner investigators from all over the country, there's totally
Speaker 2: about six hundred of us. And we handle all of
Speaker 2: the deaths nationwide. We're the point of contact relative to
Speaker 2: any death that occurs, not just homicides, but all the suicides,
Speaker 2: tons of suicides, tons of accidents, unexplained deaths, all these
Speaker 2: things you know, that we have to view and try
Speaker 2: to make judgments over. We're the eyes and the ears
Speaker 2: of the forensic pathologists, and there's no one else to
Speaker 2: kind of step in the gap, you know. And I
Speaker 2: know people it might be listening to this and say, well,
Speaker 2: you're an idiot. Why in the hell didn't you go
Speaker 2: and and have someone else do this. Bill and I
Speaker 2: were the only two in that office. We were the
Speaker 2: only two autopsy assistants, and there were probably five or
Speaker 2: six other bodies that I dissected that same day. So
Speaker 2: there's just some times there's sometimes you know, when you
Speaker 2: you're forced into these positions where you have to do it,
Speaker 2: and it was it was hard. It was probably professionally
Speaker 2: one of the most difficult things I ever had to do.
Speaker 7: You talk about your job that you had to do,
Speaker 7: you were forced to do, and you felt that responsibility.
Speaker 7: You talk about that earlier on, earlier than this event
Speaker 7: that you start compensating by drinking alcohol. What is it
Speaker 7: that happens and what are the characteristics, What are the
Speaker 7: symptoms of your ailment that are evident? You say that
Speaker 7: you talk about you cry at this, and you say,
Speaker 7: that's not a good idea because people will think, what
Speaker 7: of you tell us about that perception of somebody crying,
Speaker 7: and what was your incremental dissent? What did it characterize itself?
Speaker 2: Buy I think the issue that I make with showing
Speaker 2: emotion in the face of this, it's even at a
Speaker 2: it's even at a higher level than you see with cops,
Speaker 2: you know, because you hear about cops not wanting to
Speaker 2: show emotion all this thing. Most police officers their job
Speaker 2: is completely different than ours. You know. Keep in mind,
Speaker 2: we don't go out in as medical legal death investigators
Speaker 2: and fine lost kids. There's no silent burglar, alarm burglar
Speaker 2: alarms going off. There's no drunken husbands to pull off
Speaker 2: of wives and save the wives and the kids. That
Speaker 2: doesn't happen y us. Every thing we do day in
Speaker 2: and day out is death, I mean, and that's it.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're either notifying a family, or we're trying
Speaker 2: to determine what the manner cause is, or we're trying
Speaker 2: to get a body identified. And so what makes matters
Speaker 2: even worse is the fact that your boss, your boss,
Speaker 2: your boss is a physician. And for those that have
Speaker 2: never worked for physicians, there are several different types. But
Speaker 2: when you begin when your boss is actually not just
Speaker 2: a physician, but they're a pathologist, and not only a pathologist,
Speaker 2: but a forensic pathologist. There's a reason physicians go into
Speaker 2: forensic pathology. Now they'll say, I'm a curious person, I
Speaker 2: like the science of it and all that sort of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they're not dealing with patients, you know, they're not
Speaker 2: dealing with a living So that gives you I think,
Speaker 2: I know, I'm paining with very broad brush, but I'm
Speaker 2: qualified to do that. I've come across too many of them.
Speaker 2: They don't make the best, the best managers of people.
Speaker 2: If you will. I when I was in Atlanta, for instance,
Speaker 2: I had I had a boss that told me, because
Speaker 2: I was a senior investigator, says, I know you're having trouble,
Speaker 2: but you need to suck it up. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of people around here that look up to you, and
Speaker 2: you know, and I look back on that now and
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, the price that I paid,
Speaker 2: you know, for being manly, you know, of perception of
Speaker 2: because look, we're talking about death, then no one beats
Speaker 2: Death is the house and you never beat the house.
Speaker 2: If you want to put it in in terms of casino,
Speaker 2: death is always going to win. And you my you know,
Speaker 2: my issue was that I always felt as I could
Speaker 2: go toe to toe with death and and beat it
Speaker 2: in the end, and you never do. You never do.
Speaker 2: It's a cool thing, you know. I think that when
Speaker 2: you're a young man, it's a siren song because you know,
Speaker 2: you you talk about it's your on arrogance. You know,
Speaker 2: you talk about, Hey man, it's like, hey, what do
Speaker 2: you do for a living? When I'm a stockbroker or
Speaker 2: I sell insurance, or a drive a bus or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, what do you do? Well, I'm a medical
Speaker 2: legal death investigator, Well, what is that, Well, you know,
Speaker 2: I investigate deaths. I work for the corner, and everybody's oh,
Speaker 2: you know that's that's really cool, and they want to
Speaker 2: hear all of your stories. And when you're young, you
Speaker 2: want to give them all of your stories. But then
Speaker 2: at the end of the day you suddenly realize that
Speaker 2: your stories are just vicarious entertainment for those that are
Speaker 2: listening to you. At the end of the day, you're
Speaker 2: still left with all of the screams, You're still left
Speaker 2: with all of the emptiness. You're still with the reality
Speaker 2: that they don't know. And what they're not aware of
Speaker 2: that they go through life numb with many times, is
Speaker 2: the fact that death is creeping up on them. And
Speaker 2: as you delve deeper into these things like alcohol or
Speaker 2: sex or whatever it is that you're using to numb
Speaker 2: yourself with throughout your life or overeating. As a medical
Speaker 2: legal death investigator, you try to numb yourself as much
Speaker 2: as you can because death is waiting around the corner.
Speaker 2: You don't feel like that you have anything to lose,
Speaker 2: you know, because you truly know the reality of what's
Speaker 2: out there, what kind of waits in the darkness for you.
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, public in general, they kid
Speaker 2: themselves in thinking that it's not going to come their way,
Speaker 2: but it really does. And I stopped a long time ago.
Speaker 2: I hate the question why, and a lot of the
Speaker 2: stuff you see on television and you know, through whatever
Speaker 2: channel you happen to look at on a daily basis
Speaker 2: for your entertainment, or these things that you hear us
Speaker 2: talk about on air or even in podcasts, people say, well,
Speaker 2: why did they do this? Why? Is a fool's err
Speaker 2: in death investigation. You might can answer it. Sometimes I
Speaker 2: prefer science. I like to know what, you know, when, where, how,
Speaker 2: those sorts of things. But why is so nebulous and
Speaker 2: kind of squishy, and it's it's a lawyer's word many times,
Speaker 2: and you know you it's it's kind of almost a whiny,
Speaker 2: whiny childlike term. You know why why? Sometimes you're not
Speaker 2: going to get the answer to that question. I have
Speaker 2: to try to ground myself scientifically as a death investigator
Speaker 2: and as an educator. You know, I can look to motivations,
Speaker 2: I guess to a certain degree, but does anyone ever
Speaker 2: really know why? And then you start to get off
Speaker 2: into the you know, the more metaphysical issues with that too,
Speaker 2: and you can drive yourself to madness. And a lot
Speaker 2: of people have the question of why is as you know,
Speaker 2: we've got mental health facilities, we've got people roam in
Speaker 2: the streets day to day, we've got people suffering from depression.
Speaker 2: A lot of it begins with that core question of why.
Speaker 2: And I'm chief among sinners, man. I mean, I've I've
Speaker 2: asked that question for many years, and I have made
Speaker 2: I've tried to make h you know, some kind of
Speaker 2: mission on my part that to extricate that word out
Speaker 2: of my vernacular. You know, you sit around, I've covered
Speaker 2: you know, I've covered everything everything from the Vegas shooting.
Speaker 2: I was on the air the night of Vegas shooting occurred,
Speaker 2: the Olympic Park bombing, I worked at, you know, the
Speaker 2: I don't know, the Buckhead mass shooting, the day Trader
Speaker 2: shooting back in the late nineties, I worked at you know,
Speaker 2: we had sixteen people killed. I've covered you know, the
Speaker 2: mass shooting down in Orlando. And you know, if you
Speaker 2: sit there and you ask why why did these things happen?
Speaker 2: You'll never get a clear answer to it. You never
Speaker 2: really will, nothing that'll actually satisfy because once you think
Speaker 2: you have an answer to that, the next why question
Speaker 2: shows up at your door, and so it can be
Speaker 2: very very difficult. It's a slippery slope, is what it is.
Speaker 7: You provide an incredible example of a lot of things
Speaker 7: that you're talking about here, the gallows humor that the
Speaker 7: cops employ to survive. Sometimes you guys have a sense
Speaker 7: of humor about these things, nicknaming certain things. Then again
Speaker 7: there's certain levels of even your outraged at the behavior.
Speaker 7: You reading a book of somebody at a crime scene,
Speaker 7: cracking jokes, treating the scene very very lightly. But you
Speaker 7: talk about going to a scene and a young man
Speaker 7: or a man is dressed in women's clothing. He's a
Speaker 7: victim of autoerotic affixiation. And then the hardest thing that
Speaker 7: you have to do is well, of course there's a humor,
Speaker 7: the cops cracking some jokes about this guy, and you say,
Speaker 7: you know, I'd hate to be the butt of the
Speaker 7: jokes like this person. But then you have to call
Speaker 7: this person's mother, and this southern lady, the Southern bell says,
Speaker 7: how did my you know, how did my son die?
Speaker 7: And then you how can you put it? You tell
Speaker 7: her this is how he died erotic affixiation, and she
Speaker 7: doesn't even know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: And when you explain it further, yeah, it's my That
Speaker 2: was my own intellectual arrogance on my part, and forever
Speaker 2: to my shame for that, because you know, here this
Speaker 2: woman is, she's located up in Virginia Sidewater area, and
Speaker 2: her son, you know, chose participate in this activity. And
Speaker 2: of course he was found many days later. Decomposing devices
Speaker 2: were still hooked up to this body, and it was
Speaker 2: it was a scary kind of scene. You know, when
Speaker 2: you go into this thing, there's an electronic device that's
Speaker 2: still hooked up where you know, I'm looking at this
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking I'm looking at him split out on
Speaker 2: the floor and the condition that he's in, and you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, you know, they're looking to me to
Speaker 2: literally unplug this thing. I'm thinking, well, it's it's As
Speaker 2: a scientist, I understand that probably if this thing had
Speaker 2: actually caused his death, it would have shorted out, it
Speaker 2: would have boned. But still there's that thing in your mind,
Speaker 2: I'm going to touch this thing, and this is the
Speaker 2: last thing I'm going to see before I die, And
Speaker 2: you know, I remember thinking that, and of course I
Speaker 2: unplugged it and I began to examine his body, and
Speaker 2: and then you have to think about, well, what do
Speaker 2: I tell his mom? You know, how do I say this? Well,
Speaker 2: my intellectual arrogance at the time, I thought that I
Speaker 2: would impress her with this fancy term that's now very
Speaker 2: commident vernacular. Back when this occurred, I guess this was
Speaker 2: probably in the mid eighties, you know, there was there
Speaker 2: was not a lot of knowledge of it, you know,
Speaker 2: unless you watched I don't know Heraldo or something like that, maybe,
Speaker 2: but you know, it wasn't People weren't as educated back then.
Speaker 2: And I remember having the police up in this area
Speaker 2: in Virginia go and go to her home and tell
Speaker 2: her to call me as they stood by, and I
Speaker 2: remember telling her with the phone. She asked me, well, sir,
Speaker 2: you know, how exactly did my son die? And I
Speaker 2: remember telling her, well, yeah, ma'am, it was autoeroticas you know.
Speaker 2: And of course the question that follows immediately after that
Speaker 2: is what in the world is that? And you know,
Speaker 2: how do you explain that to a boy's mom, you know,
Speaker 2: how do you explain that to him? You know, to
Speaker 2: her you know how. You know, it's really easy to
Speaker 2: be at the scene and you're trying to cope with
Speaker 2: what you're seeing and then to have to shift gears
Speaker 2: immediately while you're going, you know, sixty miles per hour
Speaker 2: down the road and you kind of throw it into reverse,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden you're dealing with a child's mother,
Speaker 2: and I say, you know, make him sound like he's
Speaker 2: young man. Everybody, if you're a parent, everybody's you know,
Speaker 2: all your children will always be a baby's Now he's
Speaker 2: a thirty year old man and he's engaging in this behavior,
Speaker 2: but it's still a baby. You know, how how do
Speaker 2: you back off on that? And lots of times you're
Speaker 2: it's it's a hell of a job to have to
Speaker 2: do to try to grasp onto durability, to to still
Speaker 2: have enough humanity within you to walk a mile in
Speaker 2: their shoes and keep in mind, and going back to
Speaker 2: our earlier conversations, this woman didn't ask why. She just
Speaker 2: want to know how. And you know that that's thing
Speaker 2: with a lot of families. They want to know how,
Speaker 2: they want to know where. And it's amazing how many
Speaker 2: times you get to wear a question because when you
Speaker 2: tell them their child is dead or any loved one.
Speaker 2: They'll the first thing out of their mouth is where
Speaker 2: where are they? Where are they? They just want to
Speaker 2: flee to them, hoping, hoping, against hope, that there's something
Speaker 2: left there that they can grab hold of and and
Speaker 2: love on one more time. Of course, by the time
Speaker 2: it's too late.
Speaker 7: You right about your breakdown, your tremors at the did
Speaker 7: you have was there any call or need or had
Speaker 7: you ever attended any counseling psychology, psychologists or psychiatrists at
Speaker 7: before this time? Tell us what is you're forced to
Speaker 7: do and why?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a very very dark time in my life,
Speaker 2: and I think that my job, even though I was
Speaker 2: highly regarded by this time, at the end of my
Speaker 2: career in my profession, I was, you know, one of
Speaker 2: the twelve people that helped establish the national standards for
Speaker 2: medical legal death Investigation. I was actually on what was
Speaker 2: called the the Milwaukee Task Force, which was established by
Speaker 2: doctor Jeff Jensen, who if your listeners are familiar with him,
Speaker 2: he's actually a guy that did all the autopsies on
Speaker 2: the on the damer victims. He was the chief medical
Speaker 2: examiner from Milwaukee County. Very bright man, and he saw
Speaker 2: a need for kind of standardization for death investigators, medical
Speaker 2: legal death investigators nationwide, those working for corners and medical examiners,
Speaker 2: and I was chosen to be among that group, and
Speaker 2: I'm very honored, and so I attained these heights. And
Speaker 2: I had, again going back to this narrative that you
Speaker 2: can't escape death. I was right in the middle of
Speaker 2: of death and didn't realize that he was breathing down
Speaker 2: my neck. And all the while, as highly regarded as
Speaker 2: I regarded myself, you know, which is the ultimate and arrogance,
Speaker 2: I began to develop tremors. And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of this goes back also to the things that had
Speaker 2: enco that I encountered early on in my life, you know,
Speaker 2: childhood abuse and that sort of thing. And again I'm
Speaker 2: kind of layering this thing to prove that I am
Speaker 2: the man that I can be. I'm tougher than anything else.
Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, I wasn't tremor started.
Speaker 2: I guess tremors had probably started two to three years beforehand,
Speaker 2: and I just I continue to kind of bull rush
Speaker 2: my way through, you know, every single day. But as
Speaker 2: time went by, then I would and this is a
Speaker 2: horrible way to kind of spend your life. That we
Speaker 2: would work ten hour shifts, and when I would get
Speaker 2: off on my final I would clock out at the
Speaker 2: Medical Examiner's office in Atlanta. I was not celebrating the
Speaker 2: fact that I was off for three days. I would
Speaker 2: be suffering from major depression, sitting in my car, knowing
Speaker 2: that I would have to come back in three days.
Speaker 2: And that's the way I lived my life. I would
Speaker 2: spend my days off, dreading the fact that I would
Speaker 2: have to come back to work. And it's an unsustainable position.
Speaker 2: And as time went by, I was gaining a lot
Speaker 2: of weight. I was eating just to, you know, just
Speaker 2: to kind of self soothe myself. Drinking wasn't as bad
Speaker 2: as it had been previously in my life. My health
Speaker 2: was not good. I was not exercising. I worked a
Speaker 2: lot of nights, slept during the day, and I began
Speaker 2: feeling myself becoming shorter breath on a regular basis. And
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell anybody, because you know, I'd taken out
Speaker 2: hearts out of bodies that were size of canned hands.
Speaker 2: You know, I knew what athroscriad at cardiovascular disease was.
Speaker 2: You know, I knew what I knew what strokes were.
Speaker 2: You know, I dissected enough brains, and I knew that
Speaker 2: this was creeping up on me. And I knew that
Speaker 2: this was it was there, but I was going to
Speaker 2: continue to fight it until I guess it was probably
Speaker 2: started about six months out from my final day work.
Speaker 2: I was I had chest paints so bad going into
Speaker 2: work that I had to literally stop at an emergency
Speaker 2: room and they checked me in and they said, no,
Speaker 2: your heart is perfectly healthier, nothing's happening here. Take these
Speaker 2: and they gave me some tranquilizers and sent me on
Speaker 2: my way. You know, after being overnight, I had to
Speaker 2: go back home, and then I was back on duty.
Speaker 2: Two days later. It happened again, I guess a month later,
Speaker 2: and again the same thing. They put me on the EKG.
Speaker 2: I did distress test. Everything was clear, and then finally
Speaker 2: I was sitting at my desk. I'd just been out
Speaker 2: to eat with one of my closest friends from childhood
Speaker 2: who was actually an Atlanta police detective, and I sat
Speaker 2: down in my chair in the room literally began to spin.
Speaker 2: And it was the oddest thing. I'm sitting there in
Speaker 2: the medical Examiner's office. I not looking at a dead body.
Speaker 2: I'm not standing over a dead body. I'm just in
Speaker 2: the investigators area. And I remember as if I was
Speaker 2: a drowning man. I remember gasping for breath, asking somebody
Speaker 2: to help me. And I was laying on the floor,
Speaker 2: crawling out of my cubicle. And I was on day
Speaker 2: shift at the time, and my colleague that was down
Speaker 2: down the road from me, he said, call the doctors,
Speaker 2: Call the doctors. Well, the unfortunate part of that a
Speaker 2: medical examiner's office, when you say called the doctors, you're
Speaker 2: surrounded by forensic pathologists. And this was my worst nightmare
Speaker 2: come to come to pass. They they picked me up,
Speaker 2: a bunch of the investigators do They put me on
Speaker 2: sofa in our day room, which is kind of our
Speaker 2: ready room where there's a TV there. And it's the
Speaker 2: same room we've watched the you know, the planes fly
Speaker 2: into the buildings, you know, at nine to eleven, and
Speaker 2: you know, we keep it on for news. And I
Speaker 2: remember every doctor in the building showed up and here
Speaker 2: I am laying on the sofa, gasping for breath like
Speaker 2: a fish on a dock outside of the water, and
Speaker 2: looking up and there are nothing but these faces of
Speaker 2: these forensic pathologists staring down at me, and I'm I'm
Speaker 2: I'm feel as though I'm on the I'm at the
Speaker 2: portal of Hell at this moment time. And then the
Speaker 2: coolest thing happened. I remembered distinkly hearing the sound our
Speaker 2: rear gate at the Medical Examiner's office made this huge
Speaker 2: clanking noise, and I remember hearing the sound of a
Speaker 2: Grady Hospital ambulance coming down the road running Code three,
Speaker 2: I would assume to me. And the last day, literally
Speaker 2: the last time I ever left the Medical Examiner's office
Speaker 2: was in the back of an ambulance. I've never been
Speaker 2: so happy to see EMTs in my life. And you know,
Speaker 2: it was it was a hard process. We I you know,
Speaker 2: the they wound up taking me the hospital. The young
Speaker 2: physician was there, he was a cardiologist. He said, have
Speaker 2: you ever you ever been seen by a psychiatrist? And
Speaker 2: was like, what you kidded me? No, yeah, you need
Speaker 2: to see a psychiatrist. And of course they sent me
Speaker 2: to a psychiatrist. And she said, it's a lady that
Speaker 2: had immigrated from India many years ago and done her
Speaker 2: done her internship up in the Northeast at a veterans hospital,
Speaker 2: and she said, you're the worst case of PTSD we've
Speaker 2: seen that I've seen since my residency during the Vietnam era.
Speaker 2: And I was at a point where I was just
Speaker 2: shaking uncontrollably, almost twitching uncontrollably. She said, we've got to
Speaker 2: slow your mind down. And the only thing that could
Speaker 2: come out of my mouth was like work, work. And
Speaker 2: she said, mister Morgan, you will never go. And she said,
Speaker 2: and if you do, I will have you judicially commit it.
Speaker 2: And when that, when she hit me with that, I
Speaker 2: knew that at the end, I thought that it was
Speaker 2: the end of my life. I really did, you know.
Speaker 2: She stocked me right in the nose with that reality,
Speaker 2: and they put me in a put me on these
Speaker 2: very very strong medications. She says, we have got to
Speaker 2: let your brain rest. She says, nobody needs to be
Speaker 2: around death as long. And no, there were no programs
Speaker 2: in place for any kind of help for someone like
Speaker 2: myself at that time. As a matter of fact, my
Speaker 2: wife was pregnant. She was a school teacher. I think
Speaker 2: probably when I was at my worst, I was out
Speaker 2: of work. I was on short term disability, and she
Speaker 2: had contacted the county, Fulton County, and you know, through tears,
Speaker 2: she's like, what are we supposed to do? And the
Speaker 2: person that she was speaking with that with the county
Speaker 2: at the time actually said, and this is back in
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, they actually told my wife or
Speaker 2: the phone, she says, your husband's not going to qualify
Speaker 2: for disability. PTSD is too easy to fake. And I
Speaker 2: knew at that point in time that I was either
Speaker 2: going to have to get better and pull myself up
Speaker 2: and help my family survive, or it was going to
Speaker 2: be I was going to have hell to pay. And
Speaker 2: I was still coming through therapy. My wife was pregnant
Speaker 2: with our son, Isaac, and Isaac died. He died on
Speaker 2: September September the twentieth, while I was still recovering. And
Speaker 2: I tell you, he died in my arms. And I
Speaker 2: used to think back then, all those years ago, I
Speaker 2: used to think, when I go to make a notification
Speaker 2: to a family, I hope that I am compassionate enough
Speaker 2: with families when I'm talking to them that at some
Speaker 2: point in time, at some juncture along the way, somebody
Speaker 2: will be kind to my family when I've notified. When
Speaker 2: they're notified of my death, maybe that'll happen. Maybe that's
Speaker 2: you never know what the future holds. And when Isaac
Speaker 2: breathed his last breath in my arms, he had a
Speaker 2: congenital defect. I literally notified myself with my own son's death.
Speaker 2: And Isaac was a real turning point for our family
Speaker 2: at that moment time. And it was hard. I mean
Speaker 2: it was really really hard. It was hard finding a
Speaker 2: therapist I think sustainable for me, because it's not like
Speaker 2: I'm something special. It's just that not too many people
Speaker 2: have encountered, have encountered kind of the volume of things
Speaker 2: that I've seen and that I had done and in
Speaker 2: my instance, and keep in mind, not everybody's the same way.
Speaker 2: I was damaged when I showed up, you know, all
Speaker 2: those years ago as the quote unquote youngest medical legal
Speaker 2: death investigator in the world or in the US or
Speaker 2: whatever it was that the doctor had called me at
Speaker 2: that particular time. I was young, but I was damaged
Speaker 2: when I showed up at the door, and so I
Speaker 2: was bringing baggage in with me. But still, you know,
Speaker 2: I finally found a guy that was a Vietnam vet
Speaker 2: who was a PhD actually the University of Georgia and
Speaker 2: began to see him and you know, through a lot
Speaker 2: of meditation, tried to stay away from as many meds
Speaker 2: as I could and just to kind of have a
Speaker 2: clear mind moving forward with my life. I would I
Speaker 2: would have long discussions with him about death, and he
Speaker 2: had experienced death traumatically, you know. And he would even say, look,
Speaker 2: I did two tours in Vietnam and I had people
Speaker 2: that died all around me. He says, Still I didn't
Speaker 2: deal with the way you had to deal with it.
Speaker 2: He's right, but everybody's experiences are different. They are you
Speaker 2: just never But if it wasn't for him, I would
Speaker 2: not have been able to kind of pull my way
Speaker 2: out of it. And that's really the only way you
Speaker 2: can do it. You can go to all the self
Speaker 2: help you want to, you can take as many men
Speaker 2: as as you want to, but at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, you have to literally will yourself to good health.
Speaker 2: And I'm still not perfectly there. There's still things that
Speaker 2: upset me. I h. We went and saw a Joker
Speaker 2: yesterday actually, and uh, the the trailer for Richard Jewel
Speaker 2: came on and and it set me back on my
Speaker 2: heels as I'm sitting there in the previews, because it
Speaker 2: took me back to that moment in time, very real time,
Speaker 2: you know, and I remember standing over the body of
Speaker 2: Alice Hawthorne, you know, at that scene, you know, and
Speaker 2: she's kind of woodscrew in her eye and it lodged
Speaker 2: in her Sarah Bella, I'll never forget that as long
Speaker 2: as I live, Dan, you know, and that we could
Speaker 2: have had four hundred people die that night. You know,
Speaker 2: those those types of things stay with you, my wife
Speaker 2: was saying, after which she says, Now, I don't know
Speaker 2: if we're going to be seeing the movie or not,
Speaker 2: but it might be a test of how healthy I
Speaker 2: am if I can go go and watch that movie,
Speaker 2: I think. But yeah, it is an ongoing journey for me,
Speaker 2: an ongoing journey.
Speaker 7: Yeah, this book, certainly you talk about, stays with you.
Speaker 7: This book and the examples that you have from everything
Speaker 7: from you say, this's a slashing around in human excreatment
Speaker 7: and maggots that make a body look like it's come
Speaker 7: to life. When you look at a crack addicted woman
Speaker 7: and then realize that she got frustrated with her baby
Speaker 7: and hit his head on a bench, on a bedpost,
Speaker 7: all these things that you had to live, to endure,
Speaker 7: to handle, the nightmares, the dreams, the reoccurring dreams. That's
Speaker 7: a fascinating, fascinating account this journey. I want to thank
Speaker 7: you very much for coming on and talking about Blood
Speaker 7: Beneath My Feet. Joseph Scott Morgan. For those people that
Speaker 7: might want to take a look at other work, what
Speaker 7: else you're doing. I know that I just looked on YouTube.
Speaker 7: Can you tell us a little bit where they might
Speaker 7: be able to look at other work or about this
Speaker 7: book itself, and also tell us again about Dead Wife's
Speaker 7: Club please?
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I've got my own YouTube channel they
Speaker 2: can just plug into, Joseph Scott Morgan. It's generally updated
Speaker 2: weekly and it's clips from law and crime. We cover
Speaker 2: the biggest trials in the country. I do that as
Speaker 2: representative of Jacksonville State University. I'm their forensics guy, pretty
Speaker 2: much go to guy that we cover all of the
Speaker 2: cases that are currently going on out there. You can
Speaker 2: see some of my clips from hl N. I talk
Speaker 2: about the Epstein case, I think extensively, also the trouble
Speaker 2: that was had down in done the Caribbean this past summer.
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting how that kind of dropped off the
Speaker 2: news where everybody was dying? Yea, and yeah, it just
Speaker 2: kind of vanished. But yeah, all of the cases, Jody Arius,
Speaker 2: Trayvon Martin, everything that I've been involved in now since
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. Relative to that. I think there's even a
Speaker 2: book trailer on there for Blood Beneath my Feet, believe
Speaker 2: it or not, from those number of years back when
Speaker 2: the book dropped. And you know, Blood Beneath My Feet
Speaker 2: can be found on Amazon. It's in print, in print
Speaker 2: edition and also an ebook Kendall that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: so it's out there to be had. You can find
Speaker 2: it worldwide, you know, whether you're you know, listening here
Speaker 2: in America or if you're in you know, Canada or
Speaker 2: Great Britain. It's available through Amazon.
Speaker 7: It's a powerful account. And I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much, Joseph Scott Morgan a coming on and talking
Speaker 7: about Blood Beneath my Feet. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2: Do you have a great evening, good night, Thank you, Dan,
Speaker 2: Bye bye,