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<v Speaker 1>The Colorado Constitution. It was referred to the ballot. Was

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<v Speaker 1>that referred to the ballot by the I think it

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<v Speaker 1>was referred Was it signatures? How did this get We'll

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<v Speaker 1>find out with our next guests, because joining me now

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<v Speaker 1>the vice president of the American Association of Pro Life

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<v Speaker 1>Obstetrician Gynecologists in Colorado and president of Democrats for Life

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<v Speaker 1>of Colorado, Tom Perril, is with us doctor Tom Perril

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<v Speaker 1>and Wendy Smooth. Wendy Smooth, See what did I have,

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy Smith? I literally said, Wendy, your name's easy. I

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<v Speaker 1>won't mess that up. Wendy Smith, who was a retired

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<v Speaker 1>acute care nurse practitioner, there on to talk about why

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<v Speaker 1>Amendment seventy nine is a bad idea, and I want

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<v Speaker 1>to start with you, Tom. What would this amendment do

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<v Speaker 1>compared to what we have in law right now?

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<v Speaker 2>The amendment would make unrestricted abortion to constitutional right, and

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<v Speaker 2>it would also facilitate taxpayer funding, which are two new things.

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<v Speaker 2>It has several other unattended consequences, which includes eliminating prinal notification,

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<v Speaker 2>which is one of the only laws on the books

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<v Speaker 2>in Colorado pertaining to abortion, and so parents would not

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<v Speaker 2>be notified in advance of their team daughter's abortion.

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<v Speaker 1>And.

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<v Speaker 2>It would preclude the legislators of Colorado's coming back and

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<v Speaker 2>modifying the restrictions on abortion to address the late abortion

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<v Speaker 2>issue which is occurring at ever increasing numbers here in

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<v Speaker 2>Colorado on healthy women with healthy babies.

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<v Speaker 1>When you say late term abortion, what do you mean

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<v Speaker 1>and what does that mean? I want to be clear

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<v Speaker 1>because I think most people that is such a bland

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<v Speaker 1>euphemism for what actually happens there. So what is considered

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<v Speaker 1>a late term abortion?

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<v Speaker 2>We use the term late abortions because late term is

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<v Speaker 2>sort of controversial, but late abortions typically are after the

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<v Speaker 2>first semester. In particularly, I'm talking about post viability abortions

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<v Speaker 2>after twenty one weeks, which is the absolute limit of

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<v Speaker 2>fetal viability in the United States. Today, there are babies

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<v Speaker 2>actually born at some centers like the University of Iowa

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<v Speaker 2>at twenty one weeks. Currently, twenty two weeks is the

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<v Speaker 2>standard for offering resussitive measures for a pre met but

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<v Speaker 2>as early as twenty one weeks babies can survive. So

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm talking about late abortions, I'm talking about after

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<v Speaker 2>the point of fetal viability and the methodology used for

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<v Speaker 2>those abortions is different than first trimester abortions, and it

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<v Speaker 2>represents substantially more risk to the mother. You may know

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<v Speaker 2>that D and E abortions are the standard in the

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<v Speaker 2>second trimester up until about twenty four weeks and DN

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<v Speaker 2>E abortions. You know, this is difficult to discuss, but

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<v Speaker 2>it involves taking the fetus apart is membering it to

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<v Speaker 2>extract it from the uterus. In the process, the fetus

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<v Speaker 2>is killed, and usually that's done without the benefit of

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<v Speaker 2>any anesthesia or by a fetus side prior to the dismemberment,

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<v Speaker 2>which means that the fetus will feel that pain fairly

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<v Speaker 2>acutely and later later in pregnancy. Go ahead, I was

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<v Speaker 2>gonna say in the third timemester, more commonly, what happens

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<v Speaker 2>is the the fetus is injected with poison, in this

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<v Speaker 2>case the Jockson, which is a chemical drug that's used

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<v Speaker 2>for heart failure patients and people with party rhythmias, but

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<v Speaker 2>in a massive overdose it causes nausea, vomiting, wretching, abdominal pain, delirium,

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<v Speaker 2>and we know that that happens in infants as well,

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<v Speaker 2>So there's every reason to believe when when we inject

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<v Speaker 2>the jockson of the fetus, it takes at least minutes

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<v Speaker 2>up to twenty four hours to kill the fetus, and

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<v Speaker 2>so it's a very tortuous death and people are unaware

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<v Speaker 2>of that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And then do they deliver the dead baby? What is

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<v Speaker 1>the process there?

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<v Speaker 3>Not?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm not trying to be too graphic, but

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<v Speaker 1>I got to tell you, guys, I think one of

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<v Speaker 1>the reasons that people are willing to accept late abortion

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<v Speaker 1>is because they've sanitized what it actually is. Right, we

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<v Speaker 1>don't talk about what it actually is that we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>We've allowed it to become ending a pregnancy instead of

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<v Speaker 1>ending life, which is what it's doing. So I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>if you're squeamish, you may want to turn away from

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<v Speaker 1>the station for a moment, But I'd like to know

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<v Speaker 1>do they deliver the baby hole at that point? How

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<v Speaker 1>do they get a twenty six twenty eight week baby

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<v Speaker 1>out of the mother after they after they kill it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a several day procedure and they use serial dilations

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<v Speaker 2>of the cervix to just accommodate the size of the baby.

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<v Speaker 2>And then typically on the third or fourth day, when

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<v Speaker 2>it's in the you know, late later in the third trimester,

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<v Speaker 2>they give a drive to make the uterus contract, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they use instruments as well to extract the dead fetus.

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<v Speaker 2>They kill the fetus on the first day, they extract

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<v Speaker 2>it on the third or fourth day, and uh, when

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<v Speaker 2>they extract it, sometimes the fetus comes out intact, and

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes it's also this member, depending on the difficulty they

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<v Speaker 2>have in extracting the fetus.

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<v Speaker 1>So it seems to me and doctor Terrill and then

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<v Speaker 1>I'll get to you in just a second, Wendy, I promise.

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to my own obg yn about what health

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<v Speaker 1>situations would be existing where the termination of a pregnancy

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<v Speaker 1>in late later months is necessary to save the life

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<v Speaker 1>of the mother. When I was like, can't you just

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<v Speaker 1>either deliver the baby alive? And she didn't have a

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<v Speaker 1>good answer for me, and we had a long conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>but she said, it's just a really tough thing to

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<v Speaker 1>parse this out, So why not just deliver the baby

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<v Speaker 1>at that point and allow someone else to take responsibility

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<v Speaker 1>for it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's just the point after feal viability, there's

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely no indication for an abortion as opposed to a delivery,

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<v Speaker 2>because an abortion, as the just mentioned, takes several days.

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<v Speaker 2>If you have a medical emergency, nobody has the time

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<v Speaker 2>to wait several days to perform a late abortion. Delivery

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<v Speaker 2>can be performed in a matter of minutes. And so

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<v Speaker 2>if there really is a medical urgency or emergency, it's

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<v Speaker 2>actually malpracticed to perform an abortion in that setting. So

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<v Speaker 2>after viability, it's never necessary to do an abortion to

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<v Speaker 2>save the life of the mother. In fact, I even

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<v Speaker 2>called doctor Warren Herne and Boulder and asked him that

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<v Speaker 2>same question. I said, is there any situation that you

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<v Speaker 2>could think of where an abortion was necessary to save

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<v Speaker 2>the life of mother after viability instead of a delivery?

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<v Speaker 2>He said, I don't know. Called the University of Colorado,

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<v Speaker 2>so it tells you here's the premiere abortion providertrue abortion proviator,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can't think of a situation when that would

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<v Speaker 2>be relevant. So the propaganda out there that this is

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<v Speaker 2>necessary to save the health or life of mother is

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<v Speaker 2>just not true.

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<v Speaker 1>So you and I were talking off the air about

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that a lot of people here in the

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<v Speaker 1>state don't know that in Colorado you can get a

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<v Speaker 1>completely optional You decide you don't want to have a baby,

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<v Speaker 1>you can do that up until the day of birth.

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<v Speaker 1>That is the law here in Colorado.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct. It is correct.

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<v Speaker 1>I find that ghoulish, and every time I bring it up,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a texture of some sword who says that's

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<v Speaker 1>not accurate. That never happens, and it does. It absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>does happen. You said you had data.

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<v Speaker 2>On that, Well, we know that in Colorado, based on

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<v Speaker 2>the Colorada Palm Department of Public Health and Environment, there

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<v Speaker 2>are between fortua and sixty eight and fortune and eighty

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<v Speaker 2>six abortions after twenty weeks in Colorado over the last

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<v Speaker 2>two years, and that represents between three point two and

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<v Speaker 2>three point four percent of all abortions. Sounds like not

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, but you know that's basically five hundred abortions

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<v Speaker 2>after viability. And the striking thing is Doctorhearn from Boulder

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<v Speaker 2>has published his own late abortion practice Experience, and he

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<v Speaker 2>says that seventy percent of the babies that he awards

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<v Speaker 2>laid in pregnancy are are healthy. In other words, these

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<v Speaker 2>are healthy babies in healthy women that are being aborted

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<v Speaker 2>for elective reasons. I mean not that they're trivial reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes you know, women don't even recognize that they're pregnant

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<v Speaker 2>until the fifth or sixth month. Sometimes you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>partner leaves them, or they lose their job. But all

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<v Speaker 2>these things, you know, demand our compassion and our care.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think we need to offer them more than

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<v Speaker 2>a late abortion. We should be working diligently to provide

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<v Speaker 2>them pregnancyvisistant support, you know, treat domestic violence and the

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<v Speaker 2>other issues that arise that make a woman feel that

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<v Speaker 2>that's the best option for her.

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<v Speaker 1>Wendy, how did you get involved in this movement? You're

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<v Speaker 1>a retired nurse practitioner did how did you jump in here?

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<v Speaker 3>So several reasons. My specialty was hematology oncology, so understanding

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<v Speaker 3>the science of the growth and development, and from the

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<v Speaker 3>very first stem cell, I've always really been pro life.

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<v Speaker 3>In addition, I have been involved in prison volunteering in

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<v Speaker 3>prisons for over eighteen years and currently volunteer with three

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<v Speaker 3>different anti trafficking organizations, and my focuses in minor sex trafficking,

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<v Speaker 3>and so I've dealt with the issue from several different

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<v Speaker 3>perspectives and I just am compelled to fend life and

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<v Speaker 3>the health and safety of women and girls.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, someone reached out to me after I said, I

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<v Speaker 1>hate to say it, but I feel like, based on

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<v Speaker 1>recent voting on anything, we can't even get a later

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<v Speaker 1>term abortion ban passed in Colorado that failed at the

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<v Speaker 1>ballot box. What confidence do you have that this amendment

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<v Speaker 1>is going to fail? And if so, where's that coming from?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I'd love to have confidence, but Colorado voters have

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<v Speaker 1>shown me that they don't want any kind of limits

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<v Speaker 1>on abortion at all.

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<v Speaker 3>So I have confidence because I think that one of

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<v Speaker 3>the reasons that people have, like with Proposition one point fifteen,

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<v Speaker 3>people that we talked to, didn't know what they were

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<v Speaker 3>voting for. They didn't realize that by refusing to limit

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<v Speaker 3>it to twenty abortion to twenty two weeks that allowed

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<v Speaker 3>for abortion. It opened the door for vote abortion all

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<v Speaker 3>the way up to birth. I don't think most women

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<v Speaker 3>know that it is not women's healthcare. In fact, there's

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<v Speaker 3>no any efforts to promote health and safety guidelines. For example,

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<v Speaker 3>the Women's Health Protection Act HB sixteen twelve thirty one.

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<v Speaker 3>Any of that was turned down, that never got out

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<v Speaker 3>of committee because it was perceived as a barrier. So

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<v Speaker 3>there's no guidelines, there's no oversight, no safety regulations, no inspections.

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<v Speaker 3>When do you do that?

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<v Speaker 1>That's the thing that That's the thing that I thought was.

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<v Speaker 3>They realized that that's the case in that So.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're sorry, Yeah, no, I was going to say,

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<v Speaker 1>so what you're saying, Just to be clear here, because

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about this a little bit before, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>realize that they're not abortion clinics are not under the

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<v Speaker 1>same medical inspection standards as a standard medical facility that

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<v Speaker 1>has to adhere to certain levels of Clintley's. Now I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not saying saying that they're all pits of despair, but

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<v Speaker 1>they don't even get inspected, so you have to go

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<v Speaker 1>on faith that they're following proper medical practices. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 3>That's absolutely what I'm saying. The public is dark, and

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<v Speaker 3>how do we collect data because they're not reporting all

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<v Speaker 3>the data and if this amendment goes through, it'll be silent.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, we'll have no way of collecting data. Currently,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of it's voluntary in Colorado, but they don't

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<v Speaker 3>enforce it.

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<v Speaker 2>So the irony is that I was going to say,

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<v Speaker 2>the irony is that you know, a second and third

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<v Speaker 2>trimester abortion clinic which has takes care of very high

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<v Speaker 2>risk situations. We know that second trimester abortions have a

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<v Speaker 2>ten percent complication rate and one point seven percent life

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<v Speaker 2>threatening complication rate, and yet which is much higher than

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<v Speaker 2>most ambulatory surgical centers which are highly regulated, and birth

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<v Speaker 2>centers for that matter, which will highly regulated. But second

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<v Speaker 2>third timester worship clinics have no regulation despite the high risk.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just amount of time before some tragedy occurs, in

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<v Speaker 2>multiple tragedies, and we may or may not hear about

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<v Speaker 2>it because the nature of reporting on this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>thing is really suboptimal. We know from the experience in

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<v Speaker 2>Philadelphia with Gosnell that even prominent hospitals like University of

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<v Speaker 2>Color of Pennsylvania didn't report some of the women who

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<v Speaker 2>are damaged and even one woman that died as a

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<v Speaker 2>result of complications of abortion.

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<v Speaker 1>The Kermit Gosnell story should have been a wake up

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<v Speaker 1>call for so many people, but there's too many people

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<v Speaker 1>that want to continue to support the sanitized version of

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<v Speaker 1>abortion that they've been fed. Just ending a pregnancy, no

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<v Speaker 1>big deals, just a choice, and that I think is

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<v Speaker 1>what has to be changed before we can see real

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<v Speaker 1>change at the ballot box. It's one of the reasons

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk to you today on the air.

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<v Speaker 1>It's why I want to have a graphic commerce sation

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<v Speaker 1>about what this procedure actually is, because I think that

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<v Speaker 1>when you start to realize the barbarism of it, it

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<v Speaker 1>gets really hard to say no, you should have that

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<v Speaker 1>choice at any moment during your pregnancy. And yet that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we have in Colorado. And I guarantee if I

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<v Speaker 1>look at the text line right now, there'll be a

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<v Speaker 1>person who says, but how many abortions are happening at

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<v Speaker 1>thirty eight weeks? Great, if we can all agree it's

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<v Speaker 1>not happening, let's make it so it can't happen. If

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<v Speaker 1>we all agree it's so distasteful that it never happens,

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<v Speaker 1>let's take it off the table permanently. And they will

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<v Speaker 1>not concede that point. It's very, very frustrating.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, we know that it occurs well into

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<v Speaker 2>the third trimester, well beyond thirty two weeks, and in

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<v Speaker 2>doctor Hearn's published information he has even has one listen

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<v Speaker 2>at thirty nine weeks. I'm not sure if that was

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<v Speaker 2>a live baby or stillbirth, because sometimes he conflates the two,

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<v Speaker 2>but in any case, there's no quest. Then it happens

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<v Speaker 2>well into the third trimester, and again on healthy babies

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<v Speaker 2>and healthy women.

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Tom Peril and Wendy Smith, thank you so much

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<v Speaker 1>for your time today. We'll continue having this conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope you guys are right, but I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>you are. And I'm hoping that conversations like this at

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<v Speaker 1>least give someone pause before they support it, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and and maybe some baby steps we'll be having a

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<v Speaker 1>different conversation in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much having us.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you guys, I appreciate it very much. We're all

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<v Speaker 1>gonna have a chance to vote on this