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<v Speaker 1>So in, so in, it's so inside, all right, Welcome everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have a new situation arising, a new guest,

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<v Speaker 1>a new potentially a friend. We'll have to see whether

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<v Speaker 1>he makes the friend cut or not. I'm just kidding.

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<v Speaker 1>It's video from Chris Plants, and I think Chris might

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<v Speaker 1>be friends with Tim Gordon. I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 1>guys kind of know each other a little bit, but

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for coming on tonight. I appreciate your willingness

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<v Speaker 1>to hop on and have this discussion. You know this quick.

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<v Speaker 1>That was very cool of you. We're gonna have an open,

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<v Speaker 1>free form discussion. But maybe before we get started, do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to tell us anything about yourself, what kind

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<v Speaker 1>of content you do, how long you've been Catholic, you

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<v Speaker 1>know what moved you to kind of do the YouTube apologeticsphere?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, first of all, thanks for having me on,

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<v Speaker 2>especially at late in the evening. I know it's tough

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes to kind of work this all out, but thank

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<v Speaker 2>you so much for having me on. And so a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about myself. I started my YouTube channel I

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<v Speaker 2>think like January is when I started it, and my

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<v Speaker 2>interest really lies, you know. I started the channel to

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<v Speaker 2>explore what it might look like if we linked up

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<v Speaker 2>the story of the Bible, the mission of the church,

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<v Speaker 2>and the politics of the world. And there's a story

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<v Speaker 2>as to how I kind of got interested in all

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<v Speaker 2>of those different categories. But I grew up Catholic and

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<v Speaker 2>then sort of fell away from my faith. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the joke is, you go to Catholic school, you lose

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<v Speaker 2>your Catholic faith. That whole thing. Went to go play

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<v Speaker 2>baseball at a private college up north in California. Here,

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in LA and went to Westmont College

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<v Speaker 2>in Santa Barbara, and I just fell in love with Jesus.

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<v Speaker 2>My friends. I was kind of an atheist at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>like pushing back a little bit, but eventually, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>gave my life to Christ and then through apologetic means

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<v Speaker 2>having discussions with my Protestant friends, I eventually worked my

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<v Speaker 2>back to my way into the Catholic Church again. So

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<v Speaker 2>so over the years, I have just fallen in love

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<v Speaker 2>with Scripture. I mean, that's really my love, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the story of the Bible. You know, if I could

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<v Speaker 2>spend most of the hours of my day doing one thing,

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<v Speaker 2>it would just be studying Scripture. You know, I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's sort of where my YouTube channel kind of

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<v Speaker 2>comes in. I just kind of want to explore what

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<v Speaker 2>it looks like when the story of the Bible sort

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<v Speaker 2>of interacts with the politics of the world. And this

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<v Speaker 2>is actually why I think YouTube. I had known about

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<v Speaker 2>you for a while because you debated or you you know,

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<v Speaker 2>early on I was on the rules for retrogrades with

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<v Speaker 2>Tim and Dave Gordon and then backed out of there

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<v Speaker 2>for a variety of reasons, and Tim kind of went

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<v Speaker 2>with the channel. And obviously you've had a debate with

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<v Speaker 2>Dave before, who's a good friend. And then Tim is

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<v Speaker 2>still a really good friend of mine as well, and

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, every now and then I'll peek my

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<v Speaker 2>head over the fence and sort of see what's Jay saying.

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<v Speaker 2>But because my interests lie in sort of the politics

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<v Speaker 2>of the world and also the church and her mission

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<v Speaker 2>and what she has said with regard to politics, I

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<v Speaker 2>think YouTube just their algorithm is crazy accurate. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it just that video that you did popped up and

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, why is it sending me this one

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<v Speaker 2>dogmatic contradiction video? So I was like, I'll check it out,

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<v Speaker 2>And then of course I know why because you're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about what I talk about a lot of times, which

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<v Speaker 2>is the fact that, look, the Church has this teaching

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<v Speaker 2>about the moral duty of the nations to recognize the

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<v Speaker 2>Creator God, specifically the Creator God as revealed in the

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<v Speaker 2>person of Jesus Christ. So this is something that I've

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<v Speaker 2>been trying to turn up the volume on a speaker that,

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<v Speaker 2>as you rightly pointed out, has been turned down, and

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<v Speaker 2>oftentimes you're right, it's almost like the whole thing is off.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like this thing was the loudest speaker in the

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<v Speaker 2>room for a thousand years and then all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, where is it going? And I think that

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually a service for Atholics to have you do

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<v Speaker 2>what you did, which is to say, wait a second,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't you have all of these documents in Mortali

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<v Speaker 2>day coss Primus, I mean, everything you were bringing up.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, oh, man, if if only Catholics knew about this.

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<v Speaker 2>But of course, you know, part of part of my disagreement.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, early on I was I did a show

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<v Speaker 2>or two with Taylor Marshall because Tim and Taylor were

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<v Speaker 2>really close, and you know, Taylor has the same concerns

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<v Speaker 2>that you have, but about the documents of Atticant two,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially the contradiction what seems like a contradiction in

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<v Speaker 2>Dignitatis Humane, I think you're being more consistent, perhaps not

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<v Speaker 2>to say anything about those guys, but I do think that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if there is a contradiction, you gotta end

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<v Speaker 2>up where Jay ends up. So I don't You're not surprised, obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't see it that way. I I and

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't really into the whole trad stuff, and the

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<v Speaker 2>trad debates that was going on wasn't coming from that world.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually I actually arrived at this whole Jesus Christ

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<v Speaker 2>has all earthly authority because of the way I'd been

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<v Speaker 2>reading scripture. You know, there's this whole thing called empire

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<v Speaker 2>studies in New Testament scholarship. I know, I'm sure you

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<v Speaker 2>know of it, and they're sort of pointing out not

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<v Speaker 2>just like the Jesus's Lord stuff, where it's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the person in the first entry he used to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I am Lord is Caesar. Caesar is Lord, and so

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<v Speaker 2>if Jesus is Lord, Caesar is not. I actually think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a bit more complicated than that, because it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean that Caesar is not in charge, just means he

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<v Speaker 2>needs to get baptized, right, So so you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>started reading all these different passages, like the whole idea

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, give to Caesar, what is Caesar's give

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<v Speaker 2>to God? What is God? And the whole point of

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<v Speaker 2>the image on the coin is that Caesar is made

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<v Speaker 2>in the image of God. And this is why all

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<v Speaker 2>the pack passages in the New Testament say Jesus is

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<v Speaker 2>the eternal image of God, and then it follows up

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<v Speaker 2>with this is why he must rule, this is why

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<v Speaker 2>he must reign, all that stuff. So I just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of came at it from It's interesting because I studied

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<v Speaker 2>under a guy named Tremper Longman. I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>you wrote this really book, this book in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety two that kicked off the Biblical theology movement, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It was all about I've read one of his books.

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<v Speaker 2>So now you're talking about, Yeah, God is a Warrior

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<v Speaker 2>is a book that I was familiar with because I

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<v Speaker 2>had studied under him and I looked into some of

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<v Speaker 2>his stuff and the God is a Warrior is like

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<v Speaker 2>is like a huge thing, and nobody would touch God

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<v Speaker 2>as a divine warrior because at the time Muslims were well,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they've always been blowing stuff up, but at

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<v Speaker 2>the time it was like, don't talk about this. And

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<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden nine to eleven hit and then

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<v Speaker 2>everyone's now interested in this divine warfare motif in the

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<v Speaker 2>Old Testament. And Trumper I had been writing about this

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<v Speaker 2>for a while. He wasn't too scared of it. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>God is the divine warrior. You know, Israel calls God

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<v Speaker 2>the divine warrior in the in the New Testament or sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>in the Old Testament when they crossed through the Red Sea,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the Song of Moses and all that. But

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<v Speaker 2>what that led me to is exploring the divine warrior

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<v Speaker 2>motif in the New Testament, picking up where Tremper Longman

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<v Speaker 2>left off, and just discovering, Oh my goodness, because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like the Chosen Series. I tell my students this, The

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<v Speaker 2>Chosen Series has in like one of their first episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, you know, they have this little kid asking

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus like a question. Well, you know, Rabbi so and

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<v Speaker 2>so says that the that the Messiah is going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a warlike figure. He's gonna be this warrior right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have Jesus saying, you know, tell me, is

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<v Speaker 2>there any passage in the Old Testament that says the

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<v Speaker 2>Messiah will be like this warrior God will come back?

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm thinking to myself, I was like, dude, like

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<v Speaker 2>every passage in the Old Testament is about God? Is

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<v Speaker 2>this that the Messiah will be this kind of divine light,

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<v Speaker 2>this this military political leader. But of course when you

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<v Speaker 2>get to the New Testament, it is interesting that Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>is doing it quite different, not what we would expect,

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<v Speaker 2>not what you see with Simon Barcopa and the other

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<v Speaker 2>revolutionaries that are launching this Messianic revolution. Jesus is doing

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<v Speaker 2>something different, and I think the church fathers were right

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<v Speaker 2>that basically, like what he's doing is a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>Christus Victor thing, right, He's destroying the powers behind the powers.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I sort of started to track this, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the New Testament, and then it kind of hit

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<v Speaker 2>me like, wait, I think this is why Jesus says

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<v Speaker 2>when he comes back from the dead, all authority on

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<v Speaker 2>earth has been given to me, because whatever happened on

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<v Speaker 2>the cross, what we do know is immediately when he

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<v Speaker 2>comes back from the dead, he says, all authority on

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<v Speaker 2>earth is given to me. So it seems that whatever

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<v Speaker 2>if Satan is the ruler of this world, right, the

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<v Speaker 2>New Testament says that over twenty one times he's the

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<v Speaker 2>king of this world, prince of this world, all earthly

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<v Speaker 2>kingdoms are sort of in his hand. Then when Jesus

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<v Speaker 2>comes back and he says all earthly authority has been

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<v Speaker 2>given to me, something must have transpired that really the

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<v Speaker 2>Christus Victor motif God as this warrior, the arrival of

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<v Speaker 2>the divine warrior, actually culminates in this sort of political revolution,

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<v Speaker 2>if I can call it that, where all earthly authority

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<v Speaker 2>has been given to him. Now as a Catholic, where

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<v Speaker 2>I arrive, you know, slightly seeing that authority being placed

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<v Speaker 2>in his chief steward, which is Peter right. And I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my expertise is definitely not in the Church Fathers.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I try to get try to read through

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<v Speaker 2>as much as I can, and I know that is

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<v Speaker 2>you're well versed in all of this stuff, So I

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<v Speaker 2>know that, and I know definitely you know the Church

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<v Speaker 2>Fathers really really really really really well. But what I

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<v Speaker 2>see kind of coming out of that Christus Victor and

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<v Speaker 2>then also coming out of you know, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>the Gregorian reforms and the pope sort of having more

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<v Speaker 2>this power. It's sort of wrestling with what I see

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<v Speaker 2>in the New Testament. Is this what does it mean

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<v Speaker 2>for the pope to have this binding and loosing authority

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<v Speaker 2>along with the bishops that share and that with him,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you know what implications are there? And then

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<v Speaker 2>reading through all of these in cyclicals, these rich and

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<v Speaker 2>cyclicals that you pointed out, I'm like, man, this is

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<v Speaker 2>this is illuminating, not just like a side issue of

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<v Speaker 2>the Gospel, but it seems like actually these things are

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<v Speaker 2>touching on the Gospel itself. What does it mean for

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus to have all authority? And how does how does

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<v Speaker 2>that actually work? I actually do think and I haven't

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<v Speaker 2>brought this up a lot on my channel. I will

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<v Speaker 2>get to it, but I do think there needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be a bit more of a development in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>still what that implies and what that means. I don't think.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think. I think the laity need to be

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<v Speaker 2>brought in, you know, I like the ecclesiology of Vatican two,

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<v Speaker 2>where it's more of an emphasis on the role of

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<v Speaker 2>the laity as well as part of the church, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because in the in the in the Middle Age, it

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<v Speaker 2>was more like clergy and laity rather than church and state.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, so that's kind of how I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>sort of in these issues. I know, for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of trad Catholics, which I'm not necessary, I wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>called the trad Catholic, although I don't even know what

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<v Speaker 2>that means anymore. But but uh, I sort of arrived

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<v Speaker 2>at it like, oh, this is the Biblical story, and

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus having all earthly authority is just another expression of

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<v Speaker 2>him being the Creator God, him being what the entire

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<v Speaker 2>Abrahamic promises were meant to, you know, the the the

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<v Speaker 2>scepter that was promised to Judah, the nation, the union

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<v Speaker 2>of the nations. In Genesis twelve, there was a reversal

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<v Speaker 2>of Genesis eleven. It's all about Jesus having all the dividic.

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<v Speaker 1>Kingse Yeah, if you don't mind, let me maybe say so.

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<v Speaker 1>I would say pretty much everything that you've said up

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<v Speaker 1>to a point I would totally agree with. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think that it's pretty clear when you really get into

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<v Speaker 1>biblical theology that the New Testament does not have this

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<v Speaker 1>position of you know, sort of you know, separating the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of the temporal power from the spiritual power. If

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<v Speaker 1>you look into the you know, the early Church, as

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<v Speaker 1>the theology quote develops, and I don't mean developing the

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<v Speaker 1>sense of undergoing evolutionary change. I just mean as the

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<v Speaker 1>Church more and more states with clarity what the church's

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<v Speaker 1>position is. Particularly in the first say eight centuries, you

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<v Speaker 1>do absolutely see statements consistently made by many, many church

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<v Speaker 1>fathers and even in the Ecumenical Councils on the role

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<v Speaker 1>of the state in regard to the Church. And what's

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<v Speaker 1>interesting is a lot of what you said we would

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<v Speaker 1>agree with, and we would say you do find in

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<v Speaker 1>the seven Ecumenical Councils, and I'm only picking the first

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<v Speaker 1>seven just as a time frame to kind of look

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<v Speaker 1>at as an example, you begin to see, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>Saint Ambrose says that the emperor has a duty to God.

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<v Speaker 1>The emperor should have, you know, Christian principles undergirding the

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<v Speaker 1>theology of the empire. We start to see Christian laws

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<v Speaker 1>themselves with Theodosius, and then by the time of Saint

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<v Speaker 1>Justinian you have an explicitly Christian emperor, which, although not

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<v Speaker 1>accepted as a saint in the West or exhuming the

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<v Speaker 1>Latin Church or the Roman Church. He has seen as

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<v Speaker 1>a saint in the Orthodox Church because his theology is

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<v Speaker 1>what's essentially promulgated at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. So we

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<v Speaker 1>see a very crucial role for the state to do

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<v Speaker 1>what we think is sort of the manifestation of the

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<v Speaker 1>Byzantine double headed eagle. We see that double headed eagle

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<v Speaker 1>as one body of the people, manifested with church and state.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course, because there's two heads and they're kind

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<v Speaker 1>of equal, we wouldn't we wouldn't say as Orthodox that

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<v Speaker 1>the spiritual power is equal to or under the temporal power. Certainly,

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<v Speaker 1>the ideal situation is that they govern their realms with

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<v Speaker 1>their domains, and so certainly the spiritual is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the ultimate authority. In the Orthodox tradition of for example, coronation,

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<v Speaker 1>the state ruler is anointed. It's almost a semi kind

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<v Speaker 1>of sacramental ritual for the king to receive anointing by

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<v Speaker 1>the Church. However, this is where I think we would

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<v Speaker 1>find the first point of departure, which is that in

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<v Speaker 1>your model you would see that as something embodied, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>in Peter and his successors as in some way kind

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<v Speaker 1>of being a focal point perhaps of the temporal authority

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<v Speaker 1>as well. And this is precisely what I'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>first discuss with you, maybe put a challenge forward, is

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<v Speaker 1>I would argue that in the first seventh centuries, the

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<v Speaker 1>model that we see really clarified, especially by the seventh

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<v Speaker 1>Ecmmdical Council, is not one where the Bishop of Rome

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<v Speaker 1>in any way has any temporal authority or power whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 1>But rather there is pretty clearly the Byzantine Symphony, a

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<v Speaker 1>model that's outlined, for example in the statements of the

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<v Speaker 1>council between the Pope and the Emperor, the way that

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<v Speaker 1>the seven that Comminical Council caused the emperor the God

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<v Speaker 1>ordained emperor, and so he has his sphere, which is

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<v Speaker 1>the temporal sphere. But Chalcedon very clearly in Canon seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And I understand that in your view and your system,

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<v Speaker 1>you would not think that the papacy is necessarily bound

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<v Speaker 1>by the canons. You would say he's above the canons.

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<v Speaker 1>But my argument would be that there's nothing in Chalcidon

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<v Speaker 1>that in the canonical language in any way limits this

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<v Speaker 1>stricture to everybody but the pope. In fact, the way

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<v Speaker 1>the canon is worded, and I'll mention Canon seven because

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<v Speaker 1>it says very clearly that those who have been enrolled

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<v Speaker 1>in the clergy or have been made monks may not

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<v Speaker 1>accept military or any secular dignity, and anyone who presumes

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<v Speaker 1>to do so shall be anathematized. Now, I understand in

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<v Speaker 1>the Roman, in the sphere of Rome, with the collapse

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<v Speaker 1>of the west with the Barbarians, and with the moving

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<v Speaker 1>of the imperial capital to Byzantium, concept and noble, that

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<v Speaker 1>there is this vacuum, and that the papal states arise

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<v Speaker 1>out of that vacuum. I'm aware of all that. But

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<v Speaker 1>my point is that pretty clearly the mindset of the church,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's later canons that really back up what Calconon says.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no place for the spiritual power coming in and

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<v Speaker 1>saying that we are also the supreme temporal power. And

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<v Speaker 1>precisely by the time that you get to Dictatus Pope,

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<v Speaker 1>and then a couple of centuries later, unum sanctum unam

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<v Speaker 1>sanctum dogmatizes not just the idea that the temporal power

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<v Speaker 1>is under God and under Christ, which we affirm but

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<v Speaker 1>that the Bishop Rome uniquely is above and has all

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<v Speaker 1>temporal power, and to be saved, you must accept that

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<v Speaker 1>dogma as when I'm saying them says, that's specifically where

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<v Speaker 1>I would pose a challenge and a point of departure.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just I think the I think when you

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<v Speaker 2>look at like the writing, when I see Saint Ambrose

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<v Speaker 2>right engaging with the emperor, clearly, yeah, clearly the emperor's

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<v Speaker 2>temporal power is I mean, I think I think the

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<v Speaker 2>challenge is the overlapping between the spiritual and the temporal

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<v Speaker 2>because the temporal power is not entirely competent. They think,

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<v Speaker 2>for example with California, California just redefined marriage, right, it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't even know when life begins right now. The temporal

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<v Speaker 2>powers are they they're just not competent like at so

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<v Speaker 2>many levels. And now I'm not talking about you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's interesting, and this is where I think the church

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<v Speaker 2>needs oppressed a bit more. Is that the the it's

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<v Speaker 2>not if grace does build on nature, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if this is the Eastern language, you'd agree with this.

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<v Speaker 2>It builds on you know, like a Quinas says, like

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<v Speaker 2>it purifies nature, it heals nature, perfects it and then

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<v Speaker 2>elevates it. And it's like, well, if the pope, if

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<v Speaker 2>the pope has the authority that say, vadicate one says

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<v Speaker 2>that it has, and that's a proper exegesis of Matthew

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<v Speaker 2>sixteen and other passages, then the pope has an authority

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<v Speaker 2>that's not just for elevating in terms of telling us

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<v Speaker 2>about the Trinity, stuff that reason could not discover. But

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<v Speaker 2>and this is something the East is really good at.

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<v Speaker 2>But it actually gives us stuff that we could know

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<v Speaker 2>by reason, but we couldn't figure it out because we're

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<v Speaker 2>we're corrupt, our minds are corrupt. So the church has

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<v Speaker 2>this this church, the church has this moral authority as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like the state, it subject to the dark power,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of loses this kind of it's not competent to

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<v Speaker 2>make proper moral decisions, but it it kind of needs

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<v Speaker 2>to be, and the church is competent in making infallible

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<v Speaker 2>moral decisions, and therefore the church the state needs to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of and when you look at the church, the

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<v Speaker 2>church herself is going to identify the pope as that

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<v Speaker 2>center of unity, the person who has this specific kerosm

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<v Speaker 2>right along with the bishops in union with Him, has

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<v Speaker 2>this specific kerosm to teach infallibly on faith and morals.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I see the temple authority that the pope

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<v Speaker 2>has as being not just a spiritual authority but also

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<v Speaker 2>temporal in the sense of the state is not always competent,

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<v Speaker 2>even in matters of morality, and so so I see

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<v Speaker 2>and I also see the two like going together. They're

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily equal. Like I like the image that Leo

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<v Speaker 2>the thirteenth uses of the soul in the body, which

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<v Speaker 2>I know you're super familiar with, and that this the

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<v Speaker 2>spiritual is meant to help heal and govern and direct

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<v Speaker 2>properly the passions themselves. Right, the the temporal body of

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<v Speaker 2>the state is moved should be moved by illuminated by

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<v Speaker 2>the spiritual, the soul itself, which is that a spiritual

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<v Speaker 2>authority that the pope has. I see the temporal authority also,

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<v Speaker 2>I should say this as being an authority that the

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<v Speaker 2>pope has over the laity. And I think it gets

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<v Speaker 2>tricky when you're in secular governments that don't recognize Christ,

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<v Speaker 2>that don't recognize that he has this authority. And so

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, what does the church do? Does the pope.

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<v Speaker 2>The pope technically has, as the Church says, all authority

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<v Speaker 2>on earth, as Jesus has all authority on earth, temporal

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<v Speaker 2>and spiritual. But what do you do when you when

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<v Speaker 2>you have secular states that don't believe that he has

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<v Speaker 2>temporal authority in the sense that he can you know,

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<v Speaker 2>that he can define such things as what marriage is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, not just that he can give us, give

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<v Speaker 2>us a proper definition of the trinity, or proper infallible

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<v Speaker 2>definition of you know, whether females should well. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think the nature is I think the Church and state

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<v Speaker 2>is sort of convoluted because the nature and grace debate. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm here in my echoes.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my bad, I have to write, but none I

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<v Speaker 1>mean to go ahead, No.

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<v Speaker 2>Go ahead, go ahead, Sorry.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, but here's the thing, Like, for the sake,

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<v Speaker 1>for the sake of our discussion here, I'm not granting

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<v Speaker 1>that the Bishop of Rome has any temporal authority at all. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe you can demonstrate that, but that's kind of what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going for here, is that the businessing model is

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<v Speaker 1>that there are two spheres, and we do have a

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<v Speaker 1>distinction in orthodoxiology between nature and grace. I would not

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<v Speaker 1>say that it's the same kind of model that the

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<v Speaker 1>Thomas have. It's very different. But this aside from the

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<v Speaker 1>issue of Tomism. I mean again, I think we're not

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<v Speaker 1>dis agreeing about the principle of whether the state has

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<v Speaker 1>a duty to God, and ultimately we would hope in

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<v Speaker 1>a predominantly Christian sphere it would be Christian. A Christian

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<v Speaker 1>state is the ideal in the Orthodox view, when the

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<v Speaker 1>majority of the people are Orthodox. At that point it's

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<v Speaker 1>appropriate to have, you know, an Orthodox government and Orthodox laws.

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<v Speaker 1>That's always been what's called the Symphonia model in the East.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm asking a different question to you, which is,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, where do you get the idea that

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<v Speaker 1>the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop is even a thing?

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<v Speaker 1>Is the first question, And I would ask for any

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<v Speaker 1>Patristic era citation that there is such a thing in

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<v Speaker 1>the first seven centuries, given the fact that Calcidon specifically

401
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<v Speaker 1>forbade all clerics from having any civil governmental roles at

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<v Speaker 1>the pain of excommunication, and there's no exemption for the

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<v Speaker 1>Roman bishop under this canon. So I'm curious where do

404
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<v Speaker 1>you think that this. I understand you're going to say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>it derives from the nature of the patrin office itself,

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<v Speaker 1>in the supremacy of the of Peter and so forth.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm saying, where in the Church Fathers at all

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<v Speaker 1>in the first seven centuries is anything akin to what

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<v Speaker 1>dignity what Unum Sanctum and Dictatus Pope claim.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so what I would want to do is actually

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<v Speaker 2>run this back and go through the entire story of scripture,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm not going to obviously do that now.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, but where we're disagreeing is the historic teaching of

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<v Speaker 1>the Church's interpretation of the pastors, because I understand you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to see a lot of passages that you think

416
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.519
<v Speaker 1>vindicate this idea of temporal supremacy. And I'm directly giving

417
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.200
<v Speaker 1>you patristic evidence at Chalcedon which rejects the notion of

418
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:41.680
<v Speaker 1>any clerics having any temporal supremacy or right to engage

419
00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:44.799
<v Speaker 1>in those professions. And again, remember that the question is

420
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:46.839
<v Speaker 1>not does the Church have a say so in the

421
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.759
<v Speaker 1>government or should the government be Christian. The contention is

422
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:55.319
<v Speaker 1>that Dictatus Pope and Unum Sanctum explicitly say that the

423
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:58.240
<v Speaker 1>pope is the emperor of emperors and king of kings,

424
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 1>and above all emperors has the only right to use

425
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:04.559
<v Speaker 1>the imperial insignia, and that all emperors must kiss his feet.

426
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Where is that in any any patristic writing at all

427
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.079
<v Speaker 1>in the first seven of the seventh centuries, except for

428
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.160
<v Speaker 1>the feigned forgeries like the Donation of Constantine, which backed

429
00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:15.079
<v Speaker 1>up this doctrine.

430
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.319
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So what I would what I would want to

431
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.599
<v Speaker 2>do is as a Catholic, I would and you would

432
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.599
<v Speaker 2>affirm with this that Jesus Christ has all earthly authority.

433
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:29.599
<v Speaker 2>And you would say also that Jesus has all temporal authority.

434
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Are we equating that?

435
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Or like I agree that the divine person of Christ

436
00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.240
<v Speaker 1>is king of king's, Lord of lords, and he absolutely

437
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:39.079
<v Speaker 1>has all spiritual and temporal authority.

438
00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:43.400
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, So how would you how would you parse out

439
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:47.160
<v Speaker 2>the idea that Jesus has all earthly authority? Where how

440
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>does he exercise that earthly authority here on earth that

441
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:51.960
<v Speaker 2>temporal authority.

442
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, when he ascended in our nature, he now in

443
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.599
<v Speaker 1>our nature possesses that the keys not just of death

444
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.799
<v Speaker 1>and Hades, but also, as you pointed out, I think

445
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.119
<v Speaker 1>in your opening salvo there you mentioned the all authority

446
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.000
<v Speaker 1>and all all kingdom's powers and dominion have been handed

447
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.960
<v Speaker 1>to him uh in the in the when he ascends,

448
00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.960
<v Speaker 1>and I think the passage in Daniel and the passage

449
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:14.640
<v Speaker 1>in the Apocalypse or not about the end of the world.

450
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.200
<v Speaker 1>They're actually about the ascension. And that means that when

451
00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:21.440
<v Speaker 1>he ascended, because he's now in our nature, what perhaps

452
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:23.720
<v Speaker 1>in a in a spiritual sense, might have been formerly

453
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:28.000
<v Speaker 1>the right or the temple, the temporary possession of Satan

454
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:31.599
<v Speaker 1>is now given to the God Man in our nature,

455
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.799
<v Speaker 1>and so his body, the Church actually possesses all reality.

456
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.400
<v Speaker 1>All of the universe will be our inheritance. But in

457
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:44.079
<v Speaker 1>the concourse of the of Church history, the way that

458
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.599
<v Speaker 1>I believe Christ has outlined for that governance to occur

459
00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:51.759
<v Speaker 1>is not for the Church to have temporal supremacy, but

460
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:54.720
<v Speaker 1>for the Church and the state to be under God.

461
00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.200
<v Speaker 1>That's the difference in the In the papal model, there

462
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.160
<v Speaker 1>is a single headed eagle that is embodied in the

463
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.599
<v Speaker 1>person of the pope, with temporal and spiritual supremacy. In

464
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the Byzantine double headed model, which is the entire history

465
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 1>of Byzantium, it's church and state in their relative spheres.

466
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.880
<v Speaker 1>And that's why it was such a revolution for Dictatus,

467
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Pope and for Unham's sanctum to now positive that salvation

468
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:24.240
<v Speaker 1>requires submission to the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop.

469
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.799
<v Speaker 2>So what authority what authority then does the Eastern patriarch

470
00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 2>have over the emperor or over local government, say, does

471
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:39.119
<v Speaker 2>does he have any authority and the bishops have anythority over.

472
00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:44.480
<v Speaker 1>So the ideal situation of simponia is that the bishops

473
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 1>and the church have authority in the spiritual realm, and

474
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.680
<v Speaker 1>so they could conceivably, in an ideal city setting, remove

475
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:57.440
<v Speaker 1>or reject or excommunicate, say a heterodox emperor. And there

476
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.960
<v Speaker 1>are situations where that happened. We did have, how to

477
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.039
<v Speaker 1>emperors at times that were considered to be expert for example,

478
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>they're iconoclass emperors, and much of the Church rejected them,

479
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.599
<v Speaker 1>although much of the church unfortunately fell to those heresies.

480
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.359
<v Speaker 1>But for example, the ecumenical councils, they're all called by emperors.

481
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.359
<v Speaker 1>And so clearly, and now I'm not saying that's necessarily ideal,

482
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.839
<v Speaker 1>because eventually, when we have, you know, heterodox emperors, this

483
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.480
<v Speaker 1>becomes a difficulty because it comes a challenge. Now, the

484
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:28.799
<v Speaker 1>Church didn't even in the East, didn't totally succumb to

485
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 1>heterodox emperors, or else we would all be iconoclass and

486
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:35.799
<v Speaker 1>so forth. But the point I'm making is that the

487
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:39.519
<v Speaker 1>mere fact that all the Ecumenical councils are literally called

488
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.000
<v Speaker 1>by the emperors, and even the Fifth Council is essentially

489
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:48.599
<v Speaker 1>it's essentially Justinian telling Pope Vigilius what to do. He says,

490
00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.400
<v Speaker 1>you will submit to the decision of the council. And

491
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.519
<v Speaker 1>Pope Vigilious doesn't say I'm above you, I have the

492
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.279
<v Speaker 1>spiritual authority. You're out of here. He submits. Now, whether

493
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:01.519
<v Speaker 1>you think that's wrong or right, it at least shows

494
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:04.640
<v Speaker 1>that at that time operant in the Fifth Ecumenical Council,

495
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.720
<v Speaker 1>where by the way they teach pentharchy, the Fifth Ecumenical

496
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Council says there is a pentarchy. The Pope didn't have

497
00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:13.920
<v Speaker 1>a problem at that time with pentarchy. The Pope submits

498
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.519
<v Speaker 1>to the decision of the council and of Saint Justinian. Now, again,

499
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.759
<v Speaker 1>whether that's wrong or right, it shows that the mindset

500
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.240
<v Speaker 1>of the church at that time at least is not

501
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the mindset of dictatis pope and unam sanctum. That the

502
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:31.359
<v Speaker 1>temporal supremacy the Roman bishop is just obviously self evident,

503
00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:33.200
<v Speaker 1>de facto and necessary for salvation.

504
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.640
<v Speaker 2>So if the so, if the Patriarch of Constantinople is

505
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:43.759
<v Speaker 2>is is living within a Christian state, and say the

506
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:47.039
<v Speaker 2>patriarch of Constantinople or an Eastern bishop says to that state,

507
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>who's the is? Are you in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy?

508
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:58.279
<v Speaker 2>Are you You're not in communion with the Russian patriarch? Right?

509
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:00.279
<v Speaker 1>Or no? I attend the ro Court Church. I am

510
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:01.400
<v Speaker 1>in communion with the MP.

511
00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right, So let's say I forgot his name patriarch,

512
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:07.839
<v Speaker 2>I forgot I'm sorry.

513
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Kirol is the Russian MP, and Bartholomew is the EP.

514
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I knew Bartholomew. So let's say, does does does patriarch?

515
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.720
<v Speaker 2>Does the Patriarch of Russia have any authority over right?

516
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Now the president putin at all? Like if he excommunicates,

517
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:32.519
<v Speaker 2>he has the authority to excommunicate Putin right? Or would

518
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:32.960
<v Speaker 2>you say no?

519
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:39.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean again, ideally the church does have that spiritual authority. Absolutely.

520
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:43.599
<v Speaker 1>Now are there situations in church history where you could

521
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:48.200
<v Speaker 1>have bishops installed by and manipulated by the state. Absolutely.

522
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Speaker 1>This is a thing that's happened many, many times in

523
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 1>church history in the East and in the West. For example,

524
00:29:54.039 --> 00:29:58.000
<v Speaker 1>German kings for an entire century installed who was pope.

525
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:00.960
<v Speaker 1>So if this is not something unique to the East,

526
00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 1>is very common in the East and the West.

527
00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Sorry I might have asked that wrong, but I'm asking

528
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:14.480
<v Speaker 2>that if the patriarch of Russia has an authority to

529
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:20.559
<v Speaker 2>determine matters of faith and morals for Russia and the

530
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:24.039
<v Speaker 2>president of Russia, and let's say they're living in a

531
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:27.960
<v Speaker 2>Christenum kind of thing right where it's a Christian community. See,

532
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I would see if the patriarch says, hey, marriage is

533
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:34.319
<v Speaker 2>between a man and a woman, so you need to

534
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:37.480
<v Speaker 2>reverse this decision that's on the books. I want you

535
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.559
<v Speaker 2>President Putin to do that, and does he have does

536
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:47.279
<v Speaker 2>he have that authority which I would see as as

537
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:49.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of a as a temporal authority. This is why

538
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I think we might be talking past each other with

539
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.319
<v Speaker 2>what do we mean by temporal authority? Right?

540
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:59.200
<v Speaker 1>So again I would say that yes, the Again, the church,

541
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.519
<v Speaker 1>and by the way, the church is not just sort

542
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:04.720
<v Speaker 1>of like patriarchs are not little popes. They have canonical

543
00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 1>privileges within their jurisdictions, and they may have large jurisdictions

544
00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.319
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of influence, but they're still part of

545
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.480
<v Speaker 1>a synod. And so one big difference between the Orthodox

546
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.079
<v Speaker 1>Church and the Rome Mecalloic Church is that the Orthodox

547
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:20.519
<v Speaker 1>Church is far more decentralized than it is centralized. So

548
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:24.759
<v Speaker 1>even patriarchs are very limited by decisions of and the

549
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:28.920
<v Speaker 1>participation and the college. You could say, of the rest

550
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>of the bishops in their synod, we would say that's

551
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 1>really just the ancient model of the church. But so ideally,

552
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:40.200
<v Speaker 1>again setting aside the possibility of the state, you know,

553
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.400
<v Speaker 1>influencing bishops or KGB bishops during the Cold War and

554
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff, ideally the position is that, yes,

555
00:31:46.359 --> 00:31:50.160
<v Speaker 1>the Church has the authority to say any state ruler

556
00:31:50.440 --> 00:31:55.759
<v Speaker 1>or king or president or whatever is excommunicated and is

557
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.680
<v Speaker 1>in error if he does something like that. Right, they

558
00:31:58.680 --> 00:31:59.519
<v Speaker 1>have that authority.

559
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:00.279
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

560
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:04.200
<v Speaker 1>And so for if kirole writes a letter or sends

561
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:08.759
<v Speaker 1>out an encyclical and says, you know, we reaffirm the

562
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.079
<v Speaker 1>traditional teaching that marriage is between men and a woman,

563
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.680
<v Speaker 1>and we reject you know, president whoever, let's say Putin

564
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:18.519
<v Speaker 1>decides he's pro gay or something, we reject this decision

565
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 1>and he must return to the Orthodox faith. In the

566
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:24.640
<v Speaker 1>position of marriage between men and a woman. That isn't

567
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:30.279
<v Speaker 1>anything to do with the church having suddenly temporal authority.

568
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:33.240
<v Speaker 1>They're still in their sphere. And because the Church, the

569
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:37.079
<v Speaker 1>spiritual authority, is superior to the temporal authority, it doesn't

570
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.519
<v Speaker 1>mean that the Church now becomes a civil authority, you see,

571
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.839
<v Speaker 1>because there's still those spheares. And that's precisely the canonical

572
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.559
<v Speaker 1>limitations that Calcidon is laying out. Chalcodon is saying that

573
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.799
<v Speaker 1>it makes no sense for clergy to be state rulers

574
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.000
<v Speaker 1>or to have jobs in the state, meaning, uh, cleric

575
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't be going to war. They don't have standing armies,

576
00:32:57.400 --> 00:32:59.279
<v Speaker 1>which the papacy eventually has, by the way, in the

577
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:04.319
<v Speaker 1>Alexander Pope Alexander. So all these violations revolve around the

578
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.720
<v Speaker 1>violations of the spheres. But having spheres doesn't mean that

579
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:11.440
<v Speaker 1>you can't speak to the state or tell the state

580
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.640
<v Speaker 1>it ought to be doing those things. In fact, that's

581
00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 1>what your duty is.

582
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:22.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay. So I don't know where necessarily I disagree. I mean,

583
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I like what you're saying.

584
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:27.799
<v Speaker 1>Let me restate the question, and I'm not trying to

585
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.240
<v Speaker 1>be rude, but like I want an answer to where

586
00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:33.440
<v Speaker 1>in the first seven centuries of the Church fathers, is

587
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:37.160
<v Speaker 1>there anything like what you're saying of a Bishop of

588
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Rome or any bishop taking on temporal authority and power.

589
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think you see the Bishop of Rome. Now

590
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm not a church historian, I'm not well as well

591
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.079
<v Speaker 2>versed as you are in this, but I don't think

592
00:33:53.119 --> 00:34:00.200
<v Speaker 2>I see the pope taking on a temporal authority in

593
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.559
<v Speaker 2>the way that you're describing. I think I'm having trouble

594
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:04.599
<v Speaker 2>understanding what.

595
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.880
<v Speaker 1>But the way that I'm describing was the descriptions of

596
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:11.719
<v Speaker 1>Dictatus pape and Unum sanctum. That's the medieval Roman Catholic

597
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:16.480
<v Speaker 1>papal definitions of what temporal supremacy means on the part

598
00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:17.320
<v Speaker 1>of the Roman bishop.

599
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:21.679
<v Speaker 2>I think that I think that it depends if the

600
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>pope is going to claim temporal authority, just make a

601
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.079
<v Speaker 2>broad claim. Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and

602
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.360
<v Speaker 2>on earth. The Pope's going to say he's the chief steward.

603
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:36.239
<v Speaker 2>But it's going to look different when you have those

604
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.519
<v Speaker 2>in society that are either a society made up of

605
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.000
<v Speaker 2>the Catholic laity Christian laity, or a society that's not

606
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 2>made up of the Christian laity, So why so the

607
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 2>church winn't Okay, so hope isn't going in the first

608
00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:50.280
<v Speaker 2>several centuries, the pope.

609
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Is not going to make no claim again Chalcidon is

610
00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:56.199
<v Speaker 1>four fifty one, fifty four to fifty one. We're at

611
00:34:56.199 --> 00:35:00.000
<v Speaker 1>the period where there is even post Theodosias and explicit

612
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:03.960
<v Speaker 1>least somewhat Catholic we would say orthodox Catholic. And let

613
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.679
<v Speaker 1>me read Canon seven of Calcadon again. We have decreed

614
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.039
<v Speaker 1>that those have been enrolled in the clergy or become

615
00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:14.079
<v Speaker 1>monastics shall neither accept military charge nor any secular dignity.

616
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.960
<v Speaker 1>If they presume to do so and they do not repent,

617
00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:21.400
<v Speaker 1>they are anathematized as Canon seven of Chalcedon. That's explicitly

618
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.559
<v Speaker 1>in a period where there is profuse Christianization of the

619
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Roman Empire, maybe not total, but very widespread, clearly canonical

620
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:32.920
<v Speaker 1>limitations on clergy being involved in state positions.

621
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, but I don't think that when the Pope Jesus

622
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:45.480
<v Speaker 2>Christ is exercising his earthly authority through the Bishop of Rome,

623
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.239
<v Speaker 2>through the bishops, through the Catholic Lady, so the Church

624
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:54.440
<v Speaker 2>is exercising a temporal authority a temple puttestos or octoorisos

625
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.880
<v Speaker 2>through the Catholic laity. And this is what I said

626
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:01.039
<v Speaker 2>in my video, that the pope is not taking on

627
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:05.559
<v Speaker 2>a temporal secular office, secular dignity, or a military but

628
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:07.000
<v Speaker 2>he is. No, he is.

629
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.519
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not trying to be rude, but like Dictatus

630
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Pope explicitly says that he is. And when I'm saying

631
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:18.360
<v Speaker 1>yeah so, and when I'm psyched, him explicitly says that

632
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.039
<v Speaker 1>if you do not accept that temporal power and authority,

633
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:27.400
<v Speaker 1>you're not saved. So Dictatus Pope, which is under Gregory

634
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:32.400
<v Speaker 1>the seventh, ten ninety, this is registered in the papal registry.

635
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.239
<v Speaker 1>At that time. There wasn't such a thing at that

636
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.280
<v Speaker 1>time as far as we know, as anything like an

637
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.239
<v Speaker 1>official Execantheti's statement. There was just what was called a

638
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.960
<v Speaker 1>papal registry. And I'll read the dictates of Diktata's poppy

639
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in ten ninety. The Roman Church is founded by God alone.

640
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.840
<v Speaker 1>The Roman pontiff alone is called universal. The Roman pontiff

641
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:53.159
<v Speaker 1>alone can reinstate bishops in a council his league eate,

642
00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:55.480
<v Speaker 1>even if a lower grade is above all bishops, and

643
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 1>can pass a sentence and deposition of any bishop. The

644
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Pope may depose those that are out that, among other things,

645
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:03.960
<v Speaker 1>we ought to remain in the same not ought not

646
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:06.840
<v Speaker 1>to remain in the same house with anyone excommunicated by

647
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.800
<v Speaker 1>the Pope. That it is alone alone lawful for according

648
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:12.760
<v Speaker 1>to the needs of the time, the Pope to make new

649
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.000
<v Speaker 1>laws and assemble congregations, to make new abbey's canonry and

650
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:23.000
<v Speaker 1>other operations, including the enriched new bishoprics, or unite the

651
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.039
<v Speaker 1>poor bishoprics. He alone may use and wear the imperial

652
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:32.400
<v Speaker 1>insignia the Pope alone, of the Pope alone, shall all

653
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.880
<v Speaker 1>princes kiss his feet, that his name alone shall be

654
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.920
<v Speaker 1>spoken in all the churches. This is the only name

655
00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:41.719
<v Speaker 1>in the world. It is permitted to the pope alone

656
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.599
<v Speaker 1>to depose emperors. It is permitted to the bope pope

657
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.719
<v Speaker 1>alone to transfer bishops if needed. The Pope alone has

658
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:50.320
<v Speaker 1>the power to ordain a cleric of any church as

659
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.320
<v Speaker 1>he may wish. Now you understand that prior to this,

660
00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:57.159
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't the papist, the papacy that ordained all bishops

661
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:00.960
<v Speaker 1>in the world. Right, Yeah, So now keep it. There's more,

662
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.159
<v Speaker 1>because it goes on to say, no one may judge

663
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:06.400
<v Speaker 1>the first sea, no one can be condemned to appeals

664
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:11.159
<v Speaker 1>to the apostolic chair. The Roman pontiff alone can make

665
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:14.559
<v Speaker 1>all of these decisions without any consent of a subordinate.

666
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:17.920
<v Speaker 1>The Roman pope alone can oppose and reinstate bishops without

667
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.000
<v Speaker 1>any synod. It goes on and on on. It's essentially

668
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:22.639
<v Speaker 1>more and more of the same. But the point is

669
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.719
<v Speaker 1>that you have very clearly the first time. And by

670
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:27.679
<v Speaker 1>the way, this is not just my opinion. If you

671
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.079
<v Speaker 1>read de Vornik, if you read Kongar and nine hundred

672
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.599
<v Speaker 1>years together, or after nine hundred years, if you read Sashensky,

673
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.760
<v Speaker 1>who eventually was a Catholic solular that became Orthodox, they

674
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:40.800
<v Speaker 1>will all. If you read Papacy in the Orthodox, all

675
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:44.679
<v Speaker 1>of these texts, including the Papadocus mind Orf History of

676
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.119
<v Speaker 1>the Church in Middle Ages, all of these texts from

677
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Uniate and Orthodox scholars of this period will admit that

678
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 1>dictatus pope was the normative mindset of the Roman Catholic

679
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Church in the eleventh century in the Gregorian reforms. So

680
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:01.480
<v Speaker 1>this is particularly the shift period where the church is

681
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:04.599
<v Speaker 1>moving out of a collegial sonodal model that you see

682
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.039
<v Speaker 1>even up into the seventhda Medical Council, where they still

683
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.360
<v Speaker 1>talk about pentarchy. Now it's becoming a sole a talk

684
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.639
<v Speaker 1>autocratic model. And it's not accidental that at this time

685
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:17.320
<v Speaker 1>period is when you have these outrageous claims of temporal

686
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.159
<v Speaker 1>power and supremacy, which I would argue really come to

687
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:23.880
<v Speaker 1>a full fruition A couple centuries later in Unum signed

688
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.840
<v Speaker 1>them the thirteen oh two Bowl of Pope Bonifice the eight,

689
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 1>which argues that all of those temporal claims that the

690
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:33.599
<v Speaker 1>pope has authority over all, emperors can depose it will.

691
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:36.719
<v Speaker 1>And this is precisely what leads Alexander and other Renaissance

692
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:40.960
<v Speaker 1>popes to have standing armies. It's because of Unum signed them,

693
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:45.679
<v Speaker 1>and they based these things on Samachian forgeries donation of

694
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:48.519
<v Speaker 1>constant to things that were forgeries. So how at all

695
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.400
<v Speaker 1>can any of that be justified in the first eight

696
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.440
<v Speaker 1>centuries of Christian theology and churches.

697
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 2>So I think you and I are disagreeing. What I see.

698
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:02.280
<v Speaker 2>What I think I'm disagreeing with you on is that

699
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.199
<v Speaker 2>to claim temporal authority does not equal or automatically mean

700
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:13.360
<v Speaker 2>that one is holding to a secular office or secular

701
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:19.480
<v Speaker 2>dignity So what I see happening in these documents is

702
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:22.639
<v Speaker 2>exactly what you had read, which is that the pope

703
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:26.559
<v Speaker 2>has authority over a legitimate society, which is the Church,

704
00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and when secular rulers the laity. When when those secular

705
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.639
<v Speaker 2>rulers are the laity, they have authority over them, and

706
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.599
<v Speaker 2>so they can depose emperors and in that sense they

707
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.159
<v Speaker 2>have temporal authority, But the pope is not by deposing

708
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:45.280
<v Speaker 2>an emperor then becoming an emperor. So I see this

709
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:48.480
<v Speaker 2>is why I think that it can choose. Ecclesiology is

710
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:53.320
<v Speaker 2>helpful here because it puts it when we say that

711
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the Church has secular has has spiritual and temporal authority. Yes,

712
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.679
<v Speaker 2>the pope has it, but in terms of temporal, earthly

713
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 2>authority that is exercised through the Catholic lady and union

714
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:05.880
<v Speaker 2>with the pope.

715
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:09.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so when we get to Alexander and the Renaissance, Borgia,

716
00:41:09.440 --> 00:41:12.199
<v Speaker 1>et cetera, medici era of the papacy and the pope

717
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:15.079
<v Speaker 1>has standing armies, you don't think that has anything to

718
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 1>do with these documents.

719
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I wouldn't necessarily. I mean, I think it's a

720
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.800
<v Speaker 2>good challenge that you're bringing up, Jay, But I don't,

721
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because then I would have to say, I mean,

722
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:28.159
<v Speaker 2>what are the I mean, the pope has a secret service,

723
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:32.159
<v Speaker 2>The Pope still owns private property, the Pope is still

724
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:34.760
<v Speaker 2>the sovereign over the two and a half square miles

725
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:36.679
<v Speaker 2>that he's in. I mean, well, but that he.

726
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Does these things, how does that prove that it's that

727
00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.280
<v Speaker 1>it should be done. I agree he does and has

728
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:43.000
<v Speaker 1>all these things, but what does that have to do

729
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:44.239
<v Speaker 1>with whether it's it's right.

730
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, could you reac could you ask the question.

731
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:51.159
<v Speaker 1>That the pope has these things we don't disagree on,

732
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:55.000
<v Speaker 1>but my challenge is should the pope do and have

733
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:56.320
<v Speaker 1>these things? Is the challenge?

734
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So you're saying that when the Council in its

735
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:04.280
<v Speaker 2>case and says that that that no religious cleric should

736
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:11.800
<v Speaker 2>should hold a secular office, right military Otherwise that when

737
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:16.559
<v Speaker 2>the pope is owning a piece of property and then

738
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:20.719
<v Speaker 2>making himself basically a secular sovereign over the two and

739
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:22.280
<v Speaker 2>a half square miles.

740
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.880
<v Speaker 1>No over all emperors in the world.

741
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, but I'm just in reality the emperors

742
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:29.199
<v Speaker 2>in the world.

743
00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:32.679
<v Speaker 1>The problem is not the church owning property, obviously the

744
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Moscow patriarch. It owns many, many properties, properties and monasteries

745
00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.519
<v Speaker 1>and cathedrals, has a lot of money. The problem is

746
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 1>not the owning of property. The problem is affairs of

747
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:46.199
<v Speaker 1>the state, and that sphere now being the job of

748
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:49.519
<v Speaker 1>the papacy, such that by the time of the Middle Ages,

749
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:55.639
<v Speaker 1>the Renaissance era, you actually have like geopolitical world power operatives. Right,

750
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.679
<v Speaker 1>We've got spies, we've got assassins, We've got all this

751
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.840
<v Speaker 1>stuff going on in the Borgia period even up to today.

752
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.559
<v Speaker 1>Now I know you've had You've had talks with your

753
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:13.800
<v Speaker 1>buddy Tim Flanders, and Tim has done interviews with David Wimhoff,

754
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:15.960
<v Speaker 1>who's five hundred page book I've lectured through and talked

755
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.960
<v Speaker 1>about for many years, John Courtney Murray, the CIA Time

756
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Life magazine, the relationship between the CIA and the Vatican,

757
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:25.239
<v Speaker 1>particularly a Vatican two, and part of the thesis of

758
00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:27.960
<v Speaker 1>that book. I'm not saying it's true because Tim Flanders interviewed.

759
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:30.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying that there is this is not outlandish.

760
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.920
<v Speaker 1>Part of the thesis of that book is that at

761
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:34.800
<v Speaker 1>the time of Vatican Two, for example, there was such

762
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.960
<v Speaker 1>a tight relationship between the Council fathers, at least many

763
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.239
<v Speaker 1>of them and the CIA that is very difficult to

764
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:44.519
<v Speaker 1>divorce the decisions of the Second Acumenical Council, of the

765
00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.159
<v Speaker 1>Psychomatican Council, and what the designs of the ci I

766
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.039
<v Speaker 1>were at that time. That to me, that's another example

767
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 1>of Cicero Papism, or perhaps Papalo Csrism, because the CIA

768
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:59.639
<v Speaker 1>is really telling, you know, many of the popes at

769
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:01.960
<v Speaker 1>that time and what to do. Now. I don't want

770
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:04.039
<v Speaker 1>to deflect off into Batican two, but let me give

771
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.519
<v Speaker 1>you another type of example to demonstrate this. And there's

772
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:09.000
<v Speaker 1>a great chapter on this. I know you might not

773
00:44:09.159 --> 00:44:13.079
<v Speaker 1>agree with it, but Papadacus and Mayandorf of a great

774
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.239
<v Speaker 1>book called the Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy.

775
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:17.800
<v Speaker 1>And the reason this book is so good is that

776
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:20.400
<v Speaker 1>it's treating precise to this period of ten seventy one

777
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.840
<v Speaker 1>to fourteen fifty three, which is where we really see

778
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:25.599
<v Speaker 1>the pivoting between East and West going in different directions.

779
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.679
<v Speaker 1>We would argue the East goes in the continuation of

780
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 1>what the mindset of the Church of the first millennium was,

781
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.000
<v Speaker 1>with so noidality, and we would argue that the Western

782
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Latin Church, the Latin Franco papal church goes in the

783
00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:42.480
<v Speaker 1>direction of this sort of papal geopolitical power and monarchy.

784
00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:46.880
<v Speaker 1>The end of this chapter discussing the gregoring reforms of

785
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.079
<v Speaker 1>the eleventh and twelfth century and on into even later

786
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:53.079
<v Speaker 1>popes who went even further than gravy the seventh did.

787
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:57.159
<v Speaker 1>There was a rise of something very new called the

788
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:01.440
<v Speaker 1>fighting orders, the monastic fighting orders. And this is something

789
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 1>very new, and what Papa Doocus and Mandorf argue is

790
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:09.280
<v Speaker 1>that post Dick Taught is pope. This allowed the papacies

791
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.960
<v Speaker 1>to essentially create, although not yet a full on standing army,

792
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:18.119
<v Speaker 1>monastic warrior monks who would be really the monk knight

793
00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:22.079
<v Speaker 1>armies of the papacy. And so originally I'm not saying

794
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:23.760
<v Speaker 1>that they are. Now, I know, we all know the

795
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 1>history of the Templars, I think, but originally the Templars

796
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.119
<v Speaker 1>and their history and the knights hospital and so forth

797
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:34.719
<v Speaker 1>were actually to be agents knights and warrior monks of

798
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.559
<v Speaker 1>the papacy. Now, maybe you think that's cool or whatever.

799
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 1>There's I mean, it's from a literary perspective, I guess

800
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:43.079
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of cool. But did you notice that at

801
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Chalcadon all monastics are forbidden from any kind of warfare

802
00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 1>or anything like this. Now, whether you think it's right

803
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.840
<v Speaker 1>or wrong, does it not at least show a vast

804
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:57.719
<v Speaker 1>shift in the eleventh century to have warrior fighting monks

805
00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:59.880
<v Speaker 1>that are the agents of the pope. Does that not

806
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:04.360
<v Speaker 1>show a big difference between the way the Church in

807
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 1>the first thousand years viewed monasticism. Are you there? You're muted,

808
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:19.000
<v Speaker 1>so I don't know if you if something got muted,

809
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:19.760
<v Speaker 1>I can't hear you.

810
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.239
<v Speaker 2>All right, I apologize, I can hear you. Yeah, I

811
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:25.559
<v Speaker 2>don't know the history as well as you, so I

812
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:27.400
<v Speaker 2>don't really feel like I should comment on it. But

813
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:31.039
<v Speaker 2>it does seem, you know, interesting that the pope says, hey,

814
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 2>you know you religious? Can you read the canon one

815
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 2>more time and say what it is so I can

816
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.599
<v Speaker 2>have it in front of me specifically what it is?

817
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:41.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's history, right.

818
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:43.960
<v Speaker 2>This is a doctrinel.

819
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean all the canons of the councils are

820
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.880
<v Speaker 1>potentially doctrinal and or disciplinary. Really depends on which canon

821
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:53.239
<v Speaker 1>it is and what it's about. Uh, But this is

822
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:56.480
<v Speaker 1>specifically Canon seven of the Council of Calcidon, And I

823
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.800
<v Speaker 1>would add that it's not the only canon like this,

824
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:02.079
<v Speaker 1>it's just one of their earliest and clearest, which says,

825
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:04.280
<v Speaker 1>we have decreed that those who have been enrolled amongst

826
00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:07.199
<v Speaker 1>the clergy or have become monastics, that they shall neither

827
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:11.519
<v Speaker 1>accept military charge nor any secular dignity. If they presume

828
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:13.320
<v Speaker 1>to do so, and do not repent in such a

829
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:16.039
<v Speaker 1>wise to turn again to what they had first chosen

830
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:18.599
<v Speaker 1>for the love of God, they shall be anathematized. And

831
00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:21.239
<v Speaker 1>so this is we would say. And this, by the way,

832
00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:25.840
<v Speaker 1>this canon and others are part of what forms the

833
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.559
<v Speaker 1>Byzantine model of the relationship of church and state. So

834
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 1>maybe we're getting we were getting confused earlier about when

835
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:36.280
<v Speaker 1>you say the temporal power. Maybe you thought that meant

836
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:39.679
<v Speaker 1>like anything relating to the temporal. What I meant was

837
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:44.000
<v Speaker 1>the state, the imperium. And so in the Byzantine model,

838
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 1>the state ruler is seen to be a diaconos, a

839
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.480
<v Speaker 1>deacon of a sort, because Paul and roman Is thirteen

840
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:56.079
<v Speaker 1>says the Roman emperor is a diaconos, which is why

841
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:59.440
<v Speaker 1>in the Eastern tradition he can actually go behind the altar.

842
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.000
<v Speaker 1>He has a seat back there with the clergy. The

843
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.239
<v Speaker 1>emperor does I like that. Yeah, yeah, and that's intended

844
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:07.880
<v Speaker 1>to show the businessing model is that the state ruler

845
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:11.119
<v Speaker 1>is an icon of God and should be an icon

846
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:14.239
<v Speaker 1>of the Church and of Christ as much as the

847
00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:16.480
<v Speaker 1>people in the church and the members of the church

848
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.079
<v Speaker 1>and the clergy should be icons of God. That's the goal.

849
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:21.800
<v Speaker 1>The ideal doesn't mean it's gonna always happen, but that's

850
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.519
<v Speaker 1>what we're shooting for. However, that doesn't mean that the

851
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:29.159
<v Speaker 1>church becomes the state or the state becomes the church.

852
00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:32.760
<v Speaker 1>So there is we would argue again, two heads. The

853
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:35.000
<v Speaker 1>heads are not supposed to be melded into a big

854
00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:39.880
<v Speaker 1>papal head. They're different spheres. And this is really the

855
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.559
<v Speaker 1>model that you see in the first thousand years. And

856
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:45.519
<v Speaker 1>that's why I keep pointing to that eleventh century period

857
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:48.920
<v Speaker 1>where even the Orthodox and Uniate scholars admit there's a

858
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:52.760
<v Speaker 1>huge shift. I mean, I.

859
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Like a lot of what you're saying, even the point

860
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:58.679
<v Speaker 2>about the deacons, I mean, clergy still can't run for

861
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:04.320
<v Speaker 2>office today, right, they're not allowed to. Actually deacons are

862
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:09.639
<v Speaker 2>allowed to. Right, the mayor of Downey, the mayor of

863
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Downey was a deacon of the Catholic Well, this.

864
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:14.679
<v Speaker 1>Is this is the actually difference between Orthodox and Catholics.

865
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:18.039
<v Speaker 1>For the Orthodox, deacons are actually part of the priesthood.

866
00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:21.199
<v Speaker 1>And uh, I don't think in the Roman Catholic view

867
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.760
<v Speaker 1>deacons have any role of priesthood. But for Orthodox deacons

868
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:27.000
<v Speaker 1>are part of the priesthood.

869
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think deacons would be part of the

870
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:35.400
<v Speaker 2>clergy in the Catholic a Catholic understanding. But which is

871
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:40.039
<v Speaker 2>why you know the Canon seven would would exclude the clergy,

872
00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 2>and it does. It does say monks there too, so

873
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:48.599
<v Speaker 2>very fact that they they they call fourth as you

874
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:52.280
<v Speaker 2>said that you have these monk like armies. Now I

875
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.760
<v Speaker 2>do know that. You know, there's this what's this book called?

876
00:49:55.800 --> 00:50:00.800
<v Speaker 2>It's really good? Uh it's called since you're bringing up

877
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:11.719
<v Speaker 2>books here, Uh, monasticism. It's about monasticism and the the

878
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:17.119
<v Speaker 2>martial elements of monasticism. Uh. Sorry one second, if I

879
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:23.039
<v Speaker 2>could get it where it's at. Uh whatever, But it's

880
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:26.440
<v Speaker 2>it talks about how Actually, let me see, I'll look

881
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:33.760
<v Speaker 2>up the book. Uh who is it by? What's her name?

882
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Bear with me here for a second.

883
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's fine. While you're doing that, somebody said, what

884
00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.320
<v Speaker 1>about the lower orders and clergy? No, so readers in

885
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:58.280
<v Speaker 1>the Orthodox Church are not members of the priesthood. The

886
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.880
<v Speaker 1>first order of priesthood Orthodox Church is the d'ac in it.

887
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Hence why for example, it's not in the Orthodox Church,

888
00:51:05.039 --> 00:51:08.159
<v Speaker 1>is not wrong to call a deacon father deacon, right,

889
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.800
<v Speaker 1>that's that's fairly common in certain jurisdictions. But a reader, No,

890
00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:14.440
<v Speaker 1>a reader is not part of the priesthood. And in

891
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.719
<v Speaker 1>the Orthodox view, this has to do with who and

892
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:20.000
<v Speaker 1>what can do things, that can do things at the

893
00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:24.320
<v Speaker 1>altar or behind the econostasis. Right, So readers they don't

894
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:26.400
<v Speaker 1>go and touch the Eucharist and this kind of stuff

895
00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:28.679
<v Speaker 1>because they're not part of the priest in the Orthodox Church.

896
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:34.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So Catherine alan Binem and I don't say this

897
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to make any any point towards my argument, but she

898
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:41.400
<v Speaker 2>has a really good book called War and the Making

899
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:44.760
<v Speaker 2>of Medieval Monastic Culture, and it's a it's actually a

900
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:47.239
<v Speaker 2>book that's influenced me a lot, even in terms of

901
00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:50.840
<v Speaker 2>my ecclesiology, because I think that when you look at

902
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:55.320
<v Speaker 2>the rise of early monasticism and war, because many of

903
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:58.880
<v Speaker 2>these monks, like Saint Anthony, many of them were soldiers,

904
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:02.039
<v Speaker 2>that after they retired from being soldiers, they became monks,

905
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and so you have basically what she does. It's the

906
00:52:06.920 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 2>subtitle is uh, I can't see the subtitle. It's just

907
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:17.239
<v Speaker 2>it's more in the making a monastic culture. There is

908
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:22.199
<v Speaker 2>no subtitle. And but she tracks it from the early centuries,

909
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.800
<v Speaker 2>early on, like right out of the Gates, first second century,

910
00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:29.000
<v Speaker 2>and then she goes all the way through medieval monasticism.

911
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:32.760
<v Speaker 2>And she points out that a lot of these soldiers

912
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.760
<v Speaker 2>that are retiring from military active duty, they would go

913
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and join the monastery. And so what it ended up

914
00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:41.199
<v Speaker 2>because there were so many what it ended up doing

915
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 2>is creating within monastic culture, like even Saint Benedict, right,

916
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.119
<v Speaker 2>a former soldier who is one of the founders of

917
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:54.519
<v Speaker 2>early monasticism, and his shield, you know, his his his

918
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:58.760
<v Speaker 2>emblem of you know what, get behind me, Satan. What

919
00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:01.079
<v Speaker 2>you offer me is the evil drink, the poison yourself.

920
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:04.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, that's his in Latin, that's his, that's on

921
00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:10.679
<v Speaker 2>his his what do you call it symbol, his crest.

922
00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 2>And the whole idea is that you have within monasticism,

923
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:19.039
<v Speaker 2>just this idea of it's a battle against the dark powers.

924
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.480
<v Speaker 2>And what she draws out is all of the analogies

925
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:25.039
<v Speaker 2>between that they used in taking all of their military

926
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:31.639
<v Speaker 2>experience and then transferring it into the monastic spiritual fight.

927
00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:35.960
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not surprised that it could have been the case. Again,

928
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.199
<v Speaker 2>you know the history better than me that if the

929
00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:41.880
<v Speaker 2>pope is going to call forth a military, if many

930
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:44.880
<v Speaker 2>of those guys are that know how to fight are

931
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:48.920
<v Speaker 2>in the in the monastery, he might have to pull

932
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:50.199
<v Speaker 2>them out of.

933
00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:53.320
<v Speaker 1>And again, but that's the whole point of what I'm

934
00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:56.280
<v Speaker 1>trying to say, is that the pope is not supposed

935
00:53:56.320 --> 00:54:00.599
<v Speaker 1>to call for standing armies, crusades, all this stuff. And

936
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:05.079
<v Speaker 1>note that my objection has not what but.

937
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:07.679
<v Speaker 2>I think he can? He can, he can't. He does

938
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:10.559
<v Speaker 2>have a certain authority where he could he could deem

939
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:14.840
<v Speaker 2>something as as a holy war, call for Catholics to

940
00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:18.639
<v Speaker 2>take up arms, and because they are the laity, he

941
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:21.079
<v Speaker 2>has a kind of authority or.

942
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean yeah, but that's the whole thing that's

943
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:25.480
<v Speaker 1>in question. So you keep saying that, well, he has

944
00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:27.599
<v Speaker 1>this authority. I think he has this authority. I haven't

945
00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:30.239
<v Speaker 1>granted that he ever has that authority. And again, the

946
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:33.000
<v Speaker 1>attitude of the Church of the first seven eighth centuries

947
00:54:33.079 --> 00:54:35.440
<v Speaker 1>is that no cleric has that authority. You don't see

948
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:38.800
<v Speaker 1>anything like that. There's absolutely nothing like that at all

949
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.480
<v Speaker 1>until the period that we've been discussing about eleven twelve

950
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:44.599
<v Speaker 1>thirteenth century. That's the first time we see that. And

951
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:49.480
<v Speaker 1>it's not accidental that we see that in absolute concord

952
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:52.199
<v Speaker 1>with the time where the papacy begins to make these

953
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:56.519
<v Speaker 1>outrageous dictatus pap claims, because it is now becoming a worldly,

954
00:54:56.599 --> 00:55:00.840
<v Speaker 1>geopolitical institution that has nothing to do with other Jesus

955
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.840
<v Speaker 1>has authority in the temporal sphere, which we all agree,

956
00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:08.440
<v Speaker 1>but we would argue that Jesus established limitations for what's

957
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:11.239
<v Speaker 1>appropriate for the state to do and what's appropriate for

958
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:13.760
<v Speaker 1>the Church to do. So for example, the church can't

959
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:17.519
<v Speaker 1>come in and tell the state, I want you to

960
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:20.119
<v Speaker 1>go attack all of my enemies. I'm the pope, and

961
00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:22.320
<v Speaker 1>if you don't, I'll ex communicate you, which is what

962
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:25.159
<v Speaker 1>the Borgia posts did. Likewise, the state can't come in

963
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.800
<v Speaker 1>and say I mandate that you teach arianism because I'm

964
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:30.639
<v Speaker 1>the emperor and you must do what I say. There's

965
00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:34.719
<v Speaker 1>limitations to both of these spears, and anytime one overlaps

966
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:38.639
<v Speaker 1>or takes over the other one, you get this aberration,

967
00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:41.480
<v Speaker 1>which is precisely what we would say that last thousand

968
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:43.079
<v Speaker 1>years of Rome is. And I don't know if you've

969
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:46.880
<v Speaker 1>read the Alexandria Document from the Vatican in regards to

970
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:50.239
<v Speaker 1>the Eastern churches, but the Alexandria Document admits many of

971
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:55.760
<v Speaker 1>these critiques that the East has had for so many years.

972
00:55:56.639 --> 00:56:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I know the document points out many of

973
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the many of the erroneous documents that were forgeries, you know.

974
00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:08.360
<v Speaker 2>But but what what I think. I think that it's

975
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:10.880
<v Speaker 2>not just the whole idea of temporal power that I

976
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:14.639
<v Speaker 2>think is where we're disagreeing. I think it's like when

977
00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:18.079
<v Speaker 2>you say stuff that like this is not the job

978
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:22.880
<v Speaker 2>of the papacy. You said that earlier, and I agree,

979
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:25.559
<v Speaker 2>that's the job of the laity. But I think that

980
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:30.039
<v Speaker 2>the the the laity, just from a Catholic perspective. I

981
00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:31.760
<v Speaker 2>know you disagree with this, but this is just how

982
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:34.679
<v Speaker 2>it's working out in my mind. Right. The laity are

983
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:38.159
<v Speaker 2>under the pope, and the pope and the bishops have

984
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:43.039
<v Speaker 2>this teaching authority that extends not just to supernatural revelation

985
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.599
<v Speaker 2>that we couldn't know on our own right, but natural revelation,

986
00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:50.960
<v Speaker 2>not even the natural moral law, and so as the laity,

987
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the pope does have authority to define matters of morals

988
00:56:54.360 --> 00:56:56.960
<v Speaker 2>that will impact how I govern and what kind of

989
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.920
<v Speaker 2>how I govern my particular state and the laws that

990
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:02.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to implement. When the bishop, the USCCB, or

991
00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:08.639
<v Speaker 2>the pope says something specific about some moral issue, it's it,

992
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:13.599
<v Speaker 2>and it's somewhat definitive. It's not just you know, a

993
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:16.719
<v Speaker 2>recommendation or something or some off the cuff mark. Then

994
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:20.480
<v Speaker 2>he does have some authority when they say that abortion

995
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:26.480
<v Speaker 2>is abortion is wrong, that that has some sort of authority,

996
00:57:26.559 --> 00:57:29.079
<v Speaker 2>some sort of play in a when you have a

997
00:57:29.239 --> 00:57:33.679
<v Speaker 2>laity that is in charge. And so, like you said,

998
00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:36.760
<v Speaker 2>what the church can do and what the state can do,

999
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:41.840
<v Speaker 2>And what I'm struggling with, Jay, is that what happens

1000
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:45.519
<v Speaker 2>when the state is made up of the church. So

1001
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:49.599
<v Speaker 2>I want to see the church as not just the pope,

1002
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:53.079
<v Speaker 2>not just the pope. The church is not just the pope,

1003
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's not just the bishops. It's the laity as well.

1004
00:57:56.199 --> 00:57:58.400
<v Speaker 2>And so when you say what the church can do

1005
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:03.239
<v Speaker 2>and with the state can do, it's like, well, there

1006
00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:08.079
<v Speaker 2>are Catholics in the state, and so the Catholics are

1007
00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:10.800
<v Speaker 2>making in a units society. Where you have a Christian society,

1008
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.920
<v Speaker 2>the Catholics are the state. And so therefore because the

1009
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.719
<v Speaker 2>Catholic laity are part of the Church and they make

1010
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:21.880
<v Speaker 2>up the state, it gets very difficult to to kind

1011
00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:25.679
<v Speaker 2>of make the distinction or division that I feel like

1012
00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:29.159
<v Speaker 2>you kind of now.

1013
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:32.400
<v Speaker 1>But you say, again, this is already the situation in

1014
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:36.239
<v Speaker 1>say the centuries of four fifty to say nine hundred.

1015
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:40.119
<v Speaker 1>The majority of the empire is already Christian. We already

1016
00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:45.320
<v Speaker 1>have a succession now of Byzantine emperors who are at

1017
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:50.000
<v Speaker 1>least somewhat Christian, and perhaps even possibly saints if we

1018
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about Saint Justinian, and so we already have this

1019
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:57.159
<v Speaker 1>model the situation there. It's not something that we have

1020
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:01.880
<v Speaker 1>to figure out retroactively century later. It's already there in

1021
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:05.280
<v Speaker 1>these centuries. And we have this double headed Egle model

1022
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:11.119
<v Speaker 1>for a reason because it's exactly the model that it's

1023
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:18.320
<v Speaker 1>exactly the model that you see in the councils, particularly four, five, six, seven,

1024
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:20.719
<v Speaker 1>and the way they speak of the relationship between the

1025
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Church and the states. So it's not a mystery you

1026
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:26.679
<v Speaker 1>have that as the normative guiding principle. The double headed

1027
00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:31.119
<v Speaker 1>Egle model, and then we get a radical alteration in

1028
00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 1>the eleventh twelve thirteenth century in the West where they

1029
00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:37.280
<v Speaker 1>go a different pathway. So the difference between what you

1030
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:39.400
<v Speaker 1>just laid out, which a lot of it sounds good

1031
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:41.480
<v Speaker 1>and you're saying, yeah, but the pope is just kind

1032
00:59:41.480 --> 00:59:45.360
<v Speaker 1>of speaking to Catholic laity, so by necessity there's going

1033
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:48.480
<v Speaker 1>to kind of be you know, Catholic wars and Catholic rulers. No, no,

1034
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:54.079
<v Speaker 1>that's not what's in question with dictatus pope and when

1035
00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:57.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm sanctum, this is the pope now going beyond that

1036
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:01.480
<v Speaker 1>and saying, because of the donation of cons in the

1037
01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:06.599
<v Speaker 1>Samakian forgeries, I now am the emperor of emperors. That's

1038
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.000
<v Speaker 1>different than saying that the Church can speak to the

1039
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.360
<v Speaker 1>state and tell them that they're wrong about you know,

1040
01:00:11.880 --> 01:00:14.440
<v Speaker 1>gay marriage or whatever. This is the pope saying I

1041
01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:16.519
<v Speaker 1>am the emperor of emperors. I'm not just the head

1042
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:19.960
<v Speaker 1>of the Church. I am the emperor of emperors. You

1043
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:23.320
<v Speaker 1>don't see that. That's like vastly different than the model

1044
01:00:23.440 --> 01:00:27.920
<v Speaker 1>of bishops or even the papacy earlier in the sixth

1045
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:31.360
<v Speaker 1>seventh century speaking to and telling emperors that they're heretics,

1046
01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:34.360
<v Speaker 1>and that they're excommunicated. It's a step further to say

1047
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.199
<v Speaker 1>that I am also the king of kings and emperor

1048
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:39.119
<v Speaker 1>of emperors, and I can call armies and do what

1049
01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:40.119
<v Speaker 1>I list.

1050
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:43.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think because Jesus has that authority, and he

1051
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:49.119
<v Speaker 2>exercises it through the papers. He exercises that teaching authority. Again,

1052
01:00:49.519 --> 01:00:51.960
<v Speaker 2>how does Jesus? I think the question comes down to

1053
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:54.639
<v Speaker 2>the relationship between the clergy and the lady. And this

1054
01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:57.639
<v Speaker 2>is why I asked you earlier. What kind of authority

1055
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:02.440
<v Speaker 2>does patriarch Bartholom, you or any other patriarch have over

1056
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:04.119
<v Speaker 2>And I know they're not little popes, but they do

1057
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:07.960
<v Speaker 2>have authority over the laity, the Orthodox laity that are

1058
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:09.400
<v Speaker 2>in their region that are rulers.

1059
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they can excommunicate. They have a spiritual power. But

1060
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:16.400
<v Speaker 1>that does not mean that here's the false enough, here's

1061
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:19.519
<v Speaker 1>the analogy. Yeah, here's the analogy. Here's where the analogy

1062
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:22.920
<v Speaker 1>would break down. It would be like Kirol saying I

1063
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:27.119
<v Speaker 1>am also the Emperor of Russia. That's the breakdown of

1064
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:31.000
<v Speaker 1>the analogy. So we agree that the church can tell

1065
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the state things and they have a power to excommunicate

1066
01:01:34.079 --> 01:01:36.239
<v Speaker 1>a king or a president or a rule or whatever.

1067
01:01:36.639 --> 01:01:39.079
<v Speaker 1>But the difference is that Kiro can't come in and

1068
01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:43.159
<v Speaker 1>say I am the emperor of all Russia. Is that some.

1069
01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Point, Yeah, I don't think the pope is is. I

1070
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:54.079
<v Speaker 2>think it just depends on it.

1071
01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:56.960
<v Speaker 1>It depends on Have you read sanctum the wording of um.

1072
01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:00.599
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I have, I haven't read it in a while.

1073
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:02.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we could go through it if you want.

1074
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:04.559
<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, it says, particularly at the end, if you

1075
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:07.320
<v Speaker 1>do not accept and remember the context was the Pope

1076
01:02:07.360 --> 01:02:09.599
<v Speaker 1>being imprisoned and this kind of stuff at the time.

1077
01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:14.840
<v Speaker 1>And the statement at the end is that if you

1078
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:20.320
<v Speaker 1>do not accept that the terrestrial power is underneath the

1079
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.519
<v Speaker 1>petrine and spiritual power to the extent that the Pope

1080
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:28.480
<v Speaker 1>is also a temporal ruler, you are excommunicated. And my

1081
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:33.480
<v Speaker 1>challenge is that this is never taking Well, it's kind

1082
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 1>of long. I don't mind reading it, but perhaps not

1083
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:36.480
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing.

1084
01:02:36.519 --> 01:02:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Not the whole thing, but if you have the specific line.

1085
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.199
<v Speaker 1>It's the last leste. According to Blessed Dionysius, the law

1086
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of the divinity is that the lowest things reach the

1087
01:02:47.960 --> 01:02:51.159
<v Speaker 1>highest places by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of

1088
01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:54.000
<v Speaker 1>the universe. All things are not led back to the

1089
01:02:54.119 --> 01:02:57.119
<v Speaker 1>order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary,

1090
01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:00.000
<v Speaker 1>and the inferior by the superior. Hence, we must recognize

1091
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:03.519
<v Speaker 1>more clearly that the spiritual power possesses indignity and nobility,

1092
01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:07.440
<v Speaker 1>any temporal power whatever. So notice the argument is that

1093
01:03:07.480 --> 01:03:11.000
<v Speaker 1>because the spiritual is above the temporal, therefore the spiritual

1094
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:15.960
<v Speaker 1>has any temporal power whatsoever, since spiritual things surpassed the temporal.

1095
01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:19.280
<v Speaker 1>This we see very clearly also by the payment benediction

1096
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:23.119
<v Speaker 1>and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power

1097
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.719
<v Speaker 1>itself by the government even of things. For with truth

1098
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:29.280
<v Speaker 1>as our witness, it belongs to the spiritual power to

1099
01:03:29.440 --> 01:03:32.599
<v Speaker 1>establish the earthly power and to pass judgment on it

1100
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:36.119
<v Speaker 1>if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished by

1101
01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:39.760
<v Speaker 1>the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning the Church and the Church power.

1102
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Behold today, I have placed you over kingdoms, nations and

1103
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:47.440
<v Speaker 1>kingdoms and the rest. So notice the prophecy of the

1104
01:03:47.519 --> 01:03:50.559
<v Speaker 1>Church and the prediction of Christ there is applied now

1105
01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:54.159
<v Speaker 1>to the pope the Jeremiah passage, as if that's telling

1106
01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the pope that he has the ability to be a

1107
01:03:57.039 --> 01:04:01.000
<v Speaker 1>geopolitical world power and emperor. Right, that would argue that's

1108
01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:06.039
<v Speaker 1>totally out of context, not at all. What what No,

1109
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:08.840
<v Speaker 1>it is not arguing that. It is arguing that Jeremiah

1110
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:12.039
<v Speaker 1>is telling the church and predicting the church to have

1111
01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:17.199
<v Speaker 1>temporal power. Thus the next but that's not what that

1112
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.800
<v Speaker 1>Jeremiah passage is about. And it's not saying that the

1113
01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:22.840
<v Speaker 1>pope can be a global world emperor. None of these

1114
01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:26.239
<v Speaker 1>passages say that. That's the false conclusion. Now let me

1115
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:28.639
<v Speaker 1>I'll finish this this a little bit more. Therefore, if

1116
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:32.920
<v Speaker 1>the terrection, no, it's talking about the papacy having these power,

1117
01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:33.760
<v Speaker 1>that's where it goes next.

1118
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:37.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jeremiah, Jeremiah's talking to you hold today, I've placed

1119
01:04:37.400 --> 01:04:40.159
<v Speaker 2>you over nations in other kingdoms. That's that's in referrats

1120
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:41.519
<v Speaker 2>in Jesus.

1121
01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:44.679
<v Speaker 1>I know that. But the argument of this passage is

1122
01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:47.639
<v Speaker 1>that therefore it is also in the papacy. That's the

1123
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:52.039
<v Speaker 1>whole argument of this and cyclical or dogmatic statement. Yeah,

1124
01:04:52.119 --> 01:04:55.039
<v Speaker 1>because well yeah, okay, so that's that was my point.

1125
01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Now let me finish. There's a little bit more. Therefore,

1126
01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.440
<v Speaker 1>if the terrestrial power errs, it will be judged by

1127
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:03.760
<v Speaker 1>the spiritual power. If a minor spiritual power error, it

1128
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:07.199
<v Speaker 1>will be judged by the superior spiritual power spiritual power.

1129
01:05:07.239 --> 01:05:10.679
<v Speaker 1>If the highest power of all errors the pope, it

1130
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:13.079
<v Speaker 1>can only be judged by God and not by man.

1131
01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:16.280
<v Speaker 1>According to the testimony of the Apostle, the spiritual man

1132
01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:18.760
<v Speaker 1>judges all things, although he himself is judged by no

1133
01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:22.519
<v Speaker 1>man First Corinthians two fifteen. This authority, however, though it

1134
01:05:22.519 --> 01:05:24.760
<v Speaker 1>has been given to man and is exercised by man,

1135
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:26.880
<v Speaker 1>is not human, but it is divine, and it is

1136
01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:31.079
<v Speaker 1>granted to Peter by a divine word reaffirmed to him

1137
01:05:31.159 --> 01:05:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Peter and his successors, by whom Jesus said, whatever you

1138
01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:38.639
<v Speaker 1>bind on earth, that would beyond in heaven Matthew sixteen nineteen. Therefore,

1139
01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:41.920
<v Speaker 1>whoever resists this power, which is ordained by God, resists

1140
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:44.840
<v Speaker 1>the power and ordinance of God. Romans thirteen two. Even

1141
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:48.280
<v Speaker 1>though Romans thirteen is about the temporal state power, the

1142
01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:51.920
<v Speaker 1>papacy is here saying that the state the papacy has

1143
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:56.880
<v Speaker 1>that state power unless he invent, like Manichius two eternal beginnings,

1144
01:05:56.920 --> 01:05:59.400
<v Speaker 1>which is a false and heretical thing judged by us.

1145
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:03.039
<v Speaker 1>According to the testimony of Moses, it is not the beginnings,

1146
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:04.679
<v Speaker 1>but in the beginning that God created the heaven and

1147
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:07.280
<v Speaker 1>the earth Genesis one. Therefore we declare it, and we

1148
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:10.519
<v Speaker 1>proclaim and we define that it is absolutely necessary for

1149
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:14.039
<v Speaker 1>salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff.

1150
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.679
<v Speaker 1>That means you have to accept this document's teaching of

1151
01:06:17.679 --> 01:06:20.079
<v Speaker 1>temporal supremacy to be saved.

1152
01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but here's what I here's what I here's if

1153
01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:28.840
<v Speaker 2>you if you read it slowly again, you can tell

1154
01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:31.719
<v Speaker 2>you can see that what he's what he's drawing on

1155
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:34.719
<v Speaker 2>is the analogy between the soul and the body, the

1156
01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:37.159
<v Speaker 2>body and the soul, which is exactly what Uh well,

1157
01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:37.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

1158
01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:39.159
<v Speaker 1>Be able, but I don't grant any of that that

1159
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:41.280
<v Speaker 1>that has anything to do with the papacy being a

1160
01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:44.840
<v Speaker 1>world emperor, because the body soul analogy is used by

1161
01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:47.400
<v Speaker 1>other church fathers to talk about the relationship of church

1162
01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:50.880
<v Speaker 1>to state, not that the church is the state. And

1163
01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:53.599
<v Speaker 1>that's precisely where but.

1164
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:55.880
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm sorry, go ahead, I interrupted you, sir.

1165
01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:59.719
<v Speaker 1>That's precisely where this document and others in the medieval

1166
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.559
<v Speaker 1>frame go Latin papal tradition are taking this line of argumentation.

1167
01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:08.440
<v Speaker 1>They're saying that because the church is above the state,

1168
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:11.719
<v Speaker 1>it therefore is all saying, can be the state. That's

1169
01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:12.239
<v Speaker 1>the problem.

1170
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So it would be like saying, Look, what you're

1171
01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:20.519
<v Speaker 2>saying is that the intellect and the will govern the

1172
01:07:20.559 --> 01:07:25.000
<v Speaker 2>lower passions. And what the Pope is saying is that

1173
01:07:25.039 --> 01:07:28.159
<v Speaker 2>the intellect and the will are the passions. But the

1174
01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:30.840
<v Speaker 2>intellect and the will can't be the passions because for

1175
01:07:30.880 --> 01:07:33.679
<v Speaker 2>the first several hundred years of Church history, we've always

1176
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:37.039
<v Speaker 2>understood that the intellect and the will are distinct from

1177
01:07:37.039 --> 01:07:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the passions, or are separate from the passions. And I

1178
01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:43.559
<v Speaker 2>think what the Pope is saying here is that the

1179
01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:47.920
<v Speaker 2>spiritual power, the soul, the intellect, and the will rule

1180
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:53.800
<v Speaker 2>and govern the passions the lower the body is No.

1181
01:07:54.039 --> 01:07:56.280
<v Speaker 1>That is not all that's being said. He is saying that.

1182
01:07:56.880 --> 01:08:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Now listen, he is saying that because the church above

1183
01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:03.679
<v Speaker 1>the state, it is also a state. That is what

1184
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:07.239
<v Speaker 1>he's saying. And that's why the papacy becomes a state

1185
01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:10.360
<v Speaker 1>and eventually has a giant Vatican Bank and an intelligence

1186
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:13.719
<v Speaker 1>network and spies and assassins and warrior monks and all

1187
01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:15.840
<v Speaker 1>the standing armies, all the things that states have.

1188
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I think the church is the state,

1189
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:21.920
<v Speaker 2>it's the laity, and I think this is no.

1190
01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:25.079
<v Speaker 1>The church is not the state in Chalcedon, and that's

1191
01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:28.399
<v Speaker 1>why there's a distinction between clergy and you can't be

1192
01:08:28.439 --> 01:08:30.479
<v Speaker 1>in the state. So you're doing the very thing that

1193
01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:32.680
<v Speaker 1>is the thing that is the problem, saying that the

1194
01:08:32.760 --> 01:08:34.960
<v Speaker 1>church is a state. It is not a state.

1195
01:08:35.880 --> 01:08:40.800
<v Speaker 2>So you're saying that the Calciton Canon seven is saying

1196
01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:46.279
<v Speaker 2>that the church has no business in the state because

1197
01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of clergy, which are one.

1198
01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:51.880
<v Speaker 1>The church members cannot take on roles of the state,

1199
01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:54.840
<v Speaker 1>and to call standing armies and to be the emperor

1200
01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:58.039
<v Speaker 1>of emperors is to be a state. The papacy becomes

1201
01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:00.600
<v Speaker 1>the papal states.

1202
01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:05.600
<v Speaker 2>You said church members cannot be part of the state,

1203
01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:08.279
<v Speaker 2>and what I want to say is that no clergy.

1204
01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Clergy cannot be the state. Church members absolutely should be

1205
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:15.479
<v Speaker 1>in the state. The state has a duty to God

1206
01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:18.479
<v Speaker 1>and to the Church. That does not make the church

1207
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:19.039
<v Speaker 1>the state.

1208
01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, it doesn't make the church equated with the state,

1209
01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:26.399
<v Speaker 2>but it means that there are people that are part

1210
01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:27.560
<v Speaker 2>of the church, the lady.

1211
01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:30.960
<v Speaker 1>But these documents make the church the state. It makes

1212
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:34.359
<v Speaker 1>the Vatican a geopolitical world state, which it is still.

1213
01:09:40.359 --> 01:09:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just I don't think. Yeah, I'm just going

1214
01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:46.560
<v Speaker 2>to keep repeating what I'm saying, So I don't know

1215
01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:53.000
<v Speaker 2>how we gain ground here. I think that the body

1216
01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:56.680
<v Speaker 2>soul analogy that the popes are drawing on in Unam

1217
01:09:56.760 --> 01:10:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Sanctum and Immortal Day and other places is kind of

1218
01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:02.439
<v Speaker 2>what I would just rest.

1219
01:10:02.880 --> 01:10:05.640
<v Speaker 1>But the body right, So the body being subject to

1220
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:09.439
<v Speaker 1>the soul right, having those lower passions right, does not

1221
01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:12.119
<v Speaker 1>make the soul a body. That's the point I'm trying

1222
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:15.920
<v Speaker 1>to make. They're they're they're distinct. Yeah, they have a relationship,

1223
01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:20.960
<v Speaker 1>they have a synergized interconnected they should be working and

1224
01:10:21.000 --> 01:10:24.159
<v Speaker 1>speaking together. And certainly the spiritual is above the temporal.

1225
01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:27.560
<v Speaker 1>But none of that makes the spiritual the temporal. That's

1226
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:30.640
<v Speaker 1>the point, and the papal model does that is what

1227
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:31.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to say.

1228
01:10:32.079 --> 01:10:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that, Yeah, when you use words that

1229
01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:39.279
<v Speaker 2>I am the Emperor of emperors, you know it if

1230
01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:41.680
<v Speaker 2>he it depends on what he means by that. He

1231
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:46.800
<v Speaker 2>means that he is the he is the spiritual power,

1232
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:49.560
<v Speaker 2>and in that sense he governs, he is the head

1233
01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:53.920
<v Speaker 2>over all of the lower passions the body itself. Then

1234
01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:57.199
<v Speaker 2>you know that makes sense, and that's consistent if he

1235
01:10:57.319 --> 01:11:03.159
<v Speaker 2>means that literalistically, that he himself health is now taking on,

1236
01:11:03.560 --> 01:11:05.920
<v Speaker 2>as you said, a secular office.

1237
01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:08.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's not even in question. I think

1238
01:11:08.239 --> 01:11:11.279
<v Speaker 1>pretty much any scholar Uni eight Roman Catholic of this

1239
01:11:11.439 --> 01:11:15.439
<v Speaker 1>period will admit that that that's what happens, particularly post

1240
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:19.520
<v Speaker 1>Tic Tatus Pope into the you know, Renaissance, Porsia Morgia papacy,

1241
01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:20.960
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly what happens.

1242
01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:24.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, this is this is challenging for me.

1243
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.239
<v Speaker 2>So what I'll do is I'll have to go back

1244
01:11:26.319 --> 01:11:31.239
<v Speaker 2>and and I'll message you for some more resources. I'll

1245
01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:34.600
<v Speaker 2>look at these specific cases that you're talking about. Again,

1246
01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:36.479
<v Speaker 2>like I said in my beginning of the beginning of

1247
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:40.159
<v Speaker 2>my video, what you're bringing up is not something Catholics

1248
01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:42.720
<v Speaker 2>should shy away from and say this is Jay trolling Catholics.

1249
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:45.520
<v Speaker 2>This is something Catholics absolutely need to press into and

1250
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:47.840
<v Speaker 2>not run from. So what I'll do is what I

1251
01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:49.800
<v Speaker 2>would what I would say is send me what you

1252
01:11:49.960 --> 01:11:55.560
<v Speaker 2>have specifically about the kind of claims the papacy is making. Right,

1253
01:11:56.239 --> 01:11:58.319
<v Speaker 2>I'll look more into it, and then either I'll come

1254
01:11:58.319 --> 01:11:59.840
<v Speaker 2>back on first stream or I might even do a

1255
01:12:00.039 --> 01:12:02.600
<v Speaker 2>video you know response.

1256
01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, that'd be great. And by the way, I've

1257
01:12:03.760 --> 01:12:05.960
<v Speaker 1>got your video links. So if people want to see

1258
01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:08.880
<v Speaker 1>the initial response that Chris gave, it is in the

1259
01:12:08.880 --> 01:12:10.760
<v Speaker 1>show description. If you guys are interested, to be sure

1260
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:14.479
<v Speaker 1>and follow him. His channel is linked as Christopher Plants

1261
01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:18.399
<v Speaker 1>in the show description there. Specifically, I would say that

1262
01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:20.600
<v Speaker 1>a couple of books that I think really treat this

1263
01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:25.159
<v Speaker 1>issue very well would be not the whole book, but

1264
01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:27.920
<v Speaker 1>maybe the first one hundred pages of Christian East in

1265
01:12:27.960 --> 01:12:31.439
<v Speaker 1>the Rise of the Papacy by Mayandorphan Papadoccus, and then

1266
01:12:31.800 --> 01:12:36.199
<v Speaker 1>Papacy and Orthodox by Sushensky. Really just the first half

1267
01:12:36.239 --> 01:12:37.800
<v Speaker 1>of this book, so you wouldn't have to read this

1268
01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:40.359
<v Speaker 1>entire thing, just the first I don't know, hundred and

1269
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:43.039
<v Speaker 1>ninety pages would be good. So those are probably two

1270
01:12:43.439 --> 01:12:46.039
<v Speaker 1>of the best that I could think of right away.

1271
01:12:47.000 --> 01:12:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Like I said, there's others that would be good to

1272
01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:50.600
<v Speaker 1>de Vornick's Foshen Schism book is good.

1273
01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:53.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't Okay, I'm going to get I'm going to

1274
01:12:53.079 --> 01:12:55.560
<v Speaker 2>get these books per your recommendation.

1275
01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Sure, Okay, well, hey, I appreciate you coming on.

1276
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:05.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, did you want evidence that from uh, like uh,

1277
01:13:05.439 --> 01:13:09.239
<v Speaker 2>doctrinal dogmatic evidence or are you looking for evidence uh

1278
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:12.199
<v Speaker 2>from the church fathers in general? Like sort of are

1279
01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:15.720
<v Speaker 2>you saying, Chris, give me one church father or are

1280
01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:19.760
<v Speaker 2>you saying give me something from a council or what not?

1281
01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Anything I mean, I'm I mean any if there's if

1282
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:24.720
<v Speaker 1>there's any evidence that isn't and I'm not trying to

1283
01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:28.640
<v Speaker 1>be crude or rude that's not a forgery. Maybe there

1284
01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:30.279
<v Speaker 1>is something out there. I don't know, I'm not aware

1285
01:13:30.279 --> 01:13:33.520
<v Speaker 1>of it, but I've not seen anything on this specific

1286
01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:38.000
<v Speaker 1>issue that that addresses this in the first eight centuries

1287
01:13:38.039 --> 01:13:44.159
<v Speaker 1>about temporal supremacy. Now, maybe because the Papal States arises

1288
01:13:44.399 --> 01:13:48.600
<v Speaker 1>within this timeframe, there may be popes who have said

1289
01:13:48.680 --> 01:13:52.199
<v Speaker 1>something like, you know, we do have this authority. But again,

1290
01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:55.640
<v Speaker 1>as far as I'm aware, when that does come up,

1291
01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:59.119
<v Speaker 1>it's usually referencing, you know, things that are forgeries. So

1292
01:13:59.800 --> 01:14:03.399
<v Speaker 1>if there's something that's a non forgery evidence, I would

1293
01:14:03.399 --> 01:14:04.279
<v Speaker 1>be very interested in that.

1294
01:14:05.520 --> 01:14:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, cool, Yeah, I'll keep doing research and I'll see

1295
01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:10.600
<v Speaker 2>what I can find and and you know, reach out

1296
01:14:10.640 --> 01:14:14.399
<v Speaker 2>to you. But I thinks thanks for challenging challenging me

1297
01:14:14.439 --> 01:14:17.760
<v Speaker 2>on this and especially bringing up these important documents that

1298
01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>I think that Catholics need to take seriously.

1299
01:14:20.800 --> 01:14:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. Yeah, and we didn't get into a lot of

1300
01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:26.279
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the specifics of like Dignitatis humani. But

1301
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:29.000
<v Speaker 1>to be a little more precise on that topic, which

1302
01:14:29.039 --> 01:14:31.000
<v Speaker 1>you did allude to many of those documents, I would

1303
01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:36.880
<v Speaker 1>argue that, you know, Syllabus of Errors mortall Day, a

1304
01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:41.520
<v Speaker 1>lot of those Vatican one era documents that are condemning liberalism.

1305
01:14:42.079 --> 01:14:44.880
<v Speaker 1>I think even Paceendi touches on this a little bit.

1306
01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:50.399
<v Speaker 1>I think those also spill over into this question of uh,

1307
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:53.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, Vatican two Dignititadas Humane and even the Decree

1308
01:14:53.720 --> 01:14:57.039
<v Speaker 1>on Religious on a Humanism and other things. I think

1309
01:14:57.039 --> 01:15:01.199
<v Speaker 1>they go really far in the other direction of religious

1310
01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:04.079
<v Speaker 1>liberty that in my view, does contradict the things that

1311
01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:06.520
<v Speaker 1>are said in those papal documents around the time of

1312
01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:09.640
<v Speaker 1>Vatican One. Now maybe you would disagree, but maybe next

1313
01:15:09.640 --> 01:15:11.319
<v Speaker 1>time we can get into more of the Vatican two

1314
01:15:11.359 --> 01:15:12.760
<v Speaker 1>type stuff. If you want to come back.

1315
01:15:13.640 --> 01:15:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, totally. I've really enjoyed this and thanks so

1316
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:17.960
<v Speaker 2>much for having me on, and I would love to

1317
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:19.800
<v Speaker 2>come back. I mean, you've been such a great host

1318
01:15:20.199 --> 01:15:23.520
<v Speaker 2>and like I said, I love that you challenge us

1319
01:15:23.560 --> 01:15:27.199
<v Speaker 2>on this, and I need to look more into the

1320
01:15:27.239 --> 01:15:29.560
<v Speaker 2>stuff that you were saying, and I'll try to get

1321
01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:31.279
<v Speaker 2>back to you. I think it's important enough to spend

1322
01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:33.800
<v Speaker 2>time looking into it, so I'll get those two books

1323
01:15:33.920 --> 01:15:36.239
<v Speaker 2>and then i'll message you some more stuff and you

1324
01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:37.319
<v Speaker 2>can yeah, you know,