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Speaker 1: So in, so in, it's so inside, all right, Welcome everybody,

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and we have a new situation arising, a new guest,

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a new potentially a friend. We'll have to see whether

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he makes the friend cut or not. I'm just kidding.

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It's video from Chris Plants, and I think Chris might

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be friends with Tim Gordon. I don't know if you

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guys kind of know each other a little bit, but

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thank you for coming on tonight. I appreciate your willingness

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to hop on and have this discussion. You know this quick.

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That was very cool of you. We're gonna have an open,

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free form discussion. But maybe before we get started, do

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you want to tell us anything about yourself, what kind

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of content you do, how long you've been Catholic, you

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know what moved you to kind of do the YouTube apologeticsphere?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, first of all, thanks for having me on,

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especially at late in the evening. I know it's tough

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sometimes to kind of work this all out, but thank

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you so much for having me on. And so a

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little bit about myself. I started my YouTube channel I

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think like January is when I started it, and my

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interest really lies, you know. I started the channel to

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explore what it might look like if we linked up

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the story of the Bible, the mission of the church,

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and the politics of the world. And there's a story

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as to how I kind of got interested in all

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of those different categories. But I grew up Catholic and

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then sort of fell away from my faith. You know,

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the joke is, you go to Catholic school, you lose

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your Catholic faith. That whole thing. Went to go play

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baseball at a private college up north in California. Here,

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I grew up in LA and went to Westmont College

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in Santa Barbara, and I just fell in love with Jesus.

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My friends. I was kind of an atheist at the time,

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like pushing back a little bit, but eventually, you know,

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gave my life to Christ and then through apologetic means

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having discussions with my Protestant friends, I eventually worked my

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back to my way into the Catholic Church again. So

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so over the years, I have just fallen in love

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with Scripture. I mean, that's really my love, which is

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the story of the Bible. You know, if I could

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spend most of the hours of my day doing one thing,

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it would just be studying Scripture. You know, I love it.

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So that's sort of where my YouTube channel kind of

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comes in. I just kind of want to explore what

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it looks like when the story of the Bible sort

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of interacts with the politics of the world. And this

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is actually why I think YouTube. I had known about

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you for a while because you debated or you you know,

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early on I was on the rules for retrogrades with

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Tim and Dave Gordon and then backed out of there

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for a variety of reasons, and Tim kind of went

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with the channel. And obviously you've had a debate with

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Dave before, who's a good friend. And then Tim is

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still a really good friend of mine as well, and

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so you know, every now and then I'll peek my

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head over the fence and sort of see what's Jay saying.

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But because my interests lie in sort of the politics

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of the world and also the church and her mission

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and what she has said with regard to politics, I

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think YouTube just their algorithm is crazy accurate. I mean

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it just that video that you did popped up and

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I was like, why is it sending me this one

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dogmatic contradiction video? So I was like, I'll check it out,

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And then of course I know why because you're talking

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about what I talk about a lot of times, which

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is the fact that, look, the Church has this teaching

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about the moral duty of the nations to recognize the

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Creator God, specifically the Creator God as revealed in the

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person of Jesus Christ. So this is something that I've

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been trying to turn up the volume on a speaker that,

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as you rightly pointed out, has been turned down, and

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oftentimes you're right, it's almost like the whole thing is off.

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It's like this thing was the loudest speaker in the

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room for a thousand years and then all of a sudden,

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it's like, where is it going? And I think that

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it's actually a service for Atholics to have you do

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what you did, which is to say, wait a second,

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you can't you have all of these documents in Mortali

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day coss Primus, I mean, everything you were bringing up.

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I'm like, oh, man, if if only Catholics knew about this.

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But of course, you know, part of part of my disagreement.

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You know, early on I was I did a show

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or two with Taylor Marshall because Tim and Taylor were

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really close, and you know, Taylor has the same concerns

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that you have, but about the documents of Atticant two,

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and especially the contradiction what seems like a contradiction in

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Dignitatis Humane, I think you're being more consistent, perhaps not

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to say anything about those guys, but I do think that,

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you know, if there is a contradiction, you gotta end

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up where Jay ends up. So I don't You're not surprised, obviously,

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but I don't see it that way. I I and

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I wasn't really into the whole trad stuff, and the

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trad debates that was going on wasn't coming from that world.

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I actually I actually arrived at this whole Jesus Christ

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has all earthly authority because of the way I'd been

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reading scripture. You know, there's this whole thing called empire

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studies in New Testament scholarship. I know, I'm sure you

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know of it, and they're sort of pointing out not

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just like the Jesus's Lord stuff, where it's like, you know,

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the person in the first entry he used to say,

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I am Lord is Caesar. Caesar is Lord, and so

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if Jesus is Lord, Caesar is not. I actually think

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it's a bit more complicated than that, because it doesn't

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mean that Caesar is not in charge, just means he

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needs to get baptized, right, So so you know, I

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started reading all these different passages, like the whole idea

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of you know, give to Caesar, what is Caesar's give

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to God? What is God? And the whole point of

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the image on the coin is that Caesar is made

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in the image of God. And this is why all

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the pack passages in the New Testament say Jesus is

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the eternal image of God, and then it follows up

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with this is why he must rule, this is why

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he must reign, all that stuff. So I just kind

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of came at it from It's interesting because I studied

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under a guy named Tremper Longman. I don't know if

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you wrote this really book, this book in the nineteen

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ninety two that kicked off the Biblical theology movement, and.

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Speaker 1: It was all about I've read one of his books.

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Speaker 2: So now you're talking about, Yeah, God is a Warrior

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is a book that I was familiar with because I

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had studied under him and I looked into some of

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his stuff and the God is a Warrior is like

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is like a huge thing, and nobody would touch God

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as a divine warrior because at the time Muslims were well,

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I mean, they've always been blowing stuff up, but at

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the time it was like, don't talk about this. And

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all of a sudden nine to eleven hit and then

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everyone's now interested in this divine warfare motif in the

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Old Testament. And Trumper I had been writing about this

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for a while. He wasn't too scared of it. You know,

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God is the divine warrior. You know, Israel calls God

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the divine warrior in the in the New Testament or sorry,

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in the Old Testament when they crossed through the Red Sea,

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you know, the Song of Moses and all that. But

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what that led me to is exploring the divine warrior

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motif in the New Testament, picking up where Tremper Longman

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left off, and just discovering, Oh my goodness, because you know,

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like the Chosen Series. I tell my students this, The

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Chosen Series has in like one of their first episodes,

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they're like, you know, they have this little kid asking

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Jesus like a question. Well, you know, Rabbi so and

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so says that the that the Messiah is going to

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be a warlike figure. He's gonna be this warrior right,

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and they have Jesus saying, you know, tell me, is

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there any passage in the Old Testament that says the

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Messiah will be like this warrior God will come back?

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And I'm thinking to myself, I was like, dude, like

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every passage in the Old Testament is about God? Is

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this that the Messiah will be this kind of divine light,

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this this military political leader. But of course when you

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get to the New Testament, it is interesting that Jesus

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is doing it quite different, not what we would expect,

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not what you see with Simon Barcopa and the other

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revolutionaries that are launching this Messianic revolution. Jesus is doing

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something different, and I think the church fathers were right

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that basically, like what he's doing is a kind of

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Christus Victor thing, right, He's destroying the powers behind the powers.

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And so I sort of started to track this, you know,

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in the New Testament, and then it kind of hit

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me like, wait, I think this is why Jesus says

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when he comes back from the dead, all authority on

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earth has been given to me, because whatever happened on

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the cross, what we do know is immediately when he

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comes back from the dead, he says, all authority on

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earth is given to me. So it seems that whatever

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if Satan is the ruler of this world, right, the

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New Testament says that over twenty one times he's the

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king of this world, prince of this world, all earthly

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kingdoms are sort of in his hand. Then when Jesus

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comes back and he says all earthly authority has been

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given to me, something must have transpired that really the

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Christus Victor motif God as this warrior, the arrival of

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the divine warrior, actually culminates in this sort of political revolution,

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if I can call it that, where all earthly authority

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has been given to him. Now as a Catholic, where

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I arrive, you know, slightly seeing that authority being placed

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in his chief steward, which is Peter right. And I think,

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you know, my expertise is definitely not in the Church Fathers.

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You know, I try to get try to read through

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as much as I can, and I know that is

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you're well versed in all of this stuff, So I

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know that, and I know definitely you know the Church

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Fathers really really really really really well. But what I

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see kind of coming out of that Christus Victor and

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then also coming out of you know, as you mentioned,

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the Gregorian reforms and the pope sort of having more

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this power. It's sort of wrestling with what I see

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in the New Testament. Is this what does it mean

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for the pope to have this binding and loosing authority

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along with the bishops that share and that with him,

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you know, you know what implications are there? And then

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reading through all of these in cyclicals, these rich and

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cyclicals that you pointed out, I'm like, man, this is

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this is illuminating, not just like a side issue of

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the Gospel, but it seems like actually these things are

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touching on the Gospel itself. What does it mean for

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Jesus to have all authority? And how does how does

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that actually work? I actually do think and I haven't

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brought this up a lot on my channel. I will

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get to it, but I do think there needs to

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be a bit more of a development in terms of

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still what that implies and what that means. I don't think.

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I don't think. I think the laity need to be

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brought in, you know, I like the ecclesiology of Vatican two,

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where it's more of an emphasis on the role of

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the laity as well as part of the church, you know,

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because in the in the in the Middle Age, it

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was more like clergy and laity rather than church and state.

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But anyway, so that's kind of how I ended up

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sort of in these issues. I know, for a lot

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of trad Catholics, which I'm not necessary, I wouldn't be

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called the trad Catholic, although I don't even know what

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that means anymore. But but uh, I sort of arrived

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at it like, oh, this is the Biblical story, and

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Jesus having all earthly authority is just another expression of

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him being the Creator God, him being what the entire

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Abrahamic promises were meant to, you know, the the the

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scepter that was promised to Judah, the nation, the union

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of the nations. In Genesis twelve, there was a reversal

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of Genesis eleven. It's all about Jesus having all the dividic.

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Speaker 1: Kingse Yeah, if you don't mind, let me maybe say so.

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I would say pretty much everything that you've said up

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to a point I would totally agree with. And I

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think that it's pretty clear when you really get into

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biblical theology that the New Testament does not have this

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position of you know, sort of you know, separating the

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idea of the temporal power from the spiritual power. If

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you look into the you know, the early Church, as

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the theology quote develops, and I don't mean developing the

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sense of undergoing evolutionary change. I just mean as the

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Church more and more states with clarity what the church's

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position is. Particularly in the first say eight centuries, you

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do absolutely see statements consistently made by many, many church

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fathers and even in the Ecumenical Councils on the role

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of the state in regard to the Church. And what's

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interesting is a lot of what you said we would

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agree with, and we would say you do find in

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the seven Ecumenical Councils, and I'm only picking the first

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seven just as a time frame to kind of look

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at as an example, you begin to see, for example,

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Saint Ambrose says that the emperor has a duty to God.

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The emperor should have, you know, Christian principles undergirding the

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theology of the empire. We start to see Christian laws

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themselves with Theodosius, and then by the time of Saint

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Justinian you have an explicitly Christian emperor, which, although not

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accepted as a saint in the West or exhuming the

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Latin Church or the Roman Church. He has seen as

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a saint in the Orthodox Church because his theology is

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what's essentially promulgated at the Fifth Ecumenical Council. So we

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see a very crucial role for the state to do

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what we think is sort of the manifestation of the

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Byzantine double headed eagle. We see that double headed eagle

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as one body of the people, manifested with church and state.

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And of course, because there's two heads and they're kind

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of equal, we wouldn't we wouldn't say as Orthodox that

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the spiritual power is equal to or under the temporal power. Certainly,

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the ideal situation is that they govern their realms with

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their domains, and so certainly the spiritual is kind of

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the ultimate authority. In the Orthodox tradition of for example, coronation,

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the state ruler is anointed. It's almost a semi kind

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of sacramental ritual for the king to receive anointing by

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the Church. However, this is where I think we would

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find the first point of departure, which is that in

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your model you would see that as something embodied, particularly

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in Peter and his successors as in some way kind

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of being a focal point perhaps of the temporal authority

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as well. And this is precisely what I'd like to

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first discuss with you, maybe put a challenge forward, is

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I would argue that in the first seventh centuries, the

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model that we see really clarified, especially by the seventh

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Ecmmdical Council, is not one where the Bishop of Rome

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in any way has any temporal authority or power whatsoever.

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But rather there is pretty clearly the Byzantine Symphony, a

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model that's outlined, for example in the statements of the

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council between the Pope and the Emperor, the way that

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the seven that Comminical Council caused the emperor the God

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ordained emperor, and so he has his sphere, which is

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the temporal sphere. But Chalcedon very clearly in Canon seven.

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And I understand that in your view and your system,

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you would not think that the papacy is necessarily bound

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by the canons. You would say he's above the canons.

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But my argument would be that there's nothing in Chalcidon

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that in the canonical language in any way limits this

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stricture to everybody but the pope. In fact, the way

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the canon is worded, and I'll mention Canon seven because

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it says very clearly that those who have been enrolled

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in the clergy or have been made monks may not

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accept military or any secular dignity, and anyone who presumes

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to do so shall be anathematized. Now, I understand in

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the Roman, in the sphere of Rome, with the collapse

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of the west with the Barbarians, and with the moving

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of the imperial capital to Byzantium, concept and noble, that

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there is this vacuum, and that the papal states arise

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out of that vacuum. I'm aware of all that. But

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my point is that pretty clearly the mindset of the church,

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and there's later canons that really back up what Calconon says.

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There's no place for the spiritual power coming in and

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saying that we are also the supreme temporal power. And

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precisely by the time that you get to Dictatus Pope,

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and then a couple of centuries later, unum sanctum unam

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sanctum dogmatizes not just the idea that the temporal power

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is under God and under Christ, which we affirm but

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that the Bishop Rome uniquely is above and has all

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temporal power, and to be saved, you must accept that

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dogma as when I'm saying them says, that's specifically where

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I would pose a challenge and a point of departure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just I think the I think when you

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look at like the writing, when I see Saint Ambrose

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right engaging with the emperor, clearly, yeah, clearly the emperor's

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temporal power is I mean, I think I think the

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challenge is the overlapping between the spiritual and the temporal

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because the temporal power is not entirely competent. They think,

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for example with California, California just redefined marriage, right, it

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doesn't even know when life begins right now. The temporal

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powers are they they're just not competent like at so

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many levels. And now I'm not talking about you know,

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it's interesting, and this is where I think the church

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needs oppressed a bit more. Is that the the it's

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not if grace does build on nature, and I don't

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know if this is the Eastern language, you'd agree with this.

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It builds on you know, like a Quinas says, like

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it purifies nature, it heals nature, perfects it and then

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elevates it. And it's like, well, if the pope, if

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the pope has the authority that say, vadicate one says

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that it has, and that's a proper exegesis of Matthew

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sixteen and other passages, then the pope has an authority

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that's not just for elevating in terms of telling us

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about the Trinity, stuff that reason could not discover. But

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and this is something the East is really good at.

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But it actually gives us stuff that we could know

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by reason, but we couldn't figure it out because we're

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we're corrupt, our minds are corrupt. So the church has

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this this church, the church has this moral authority as well.

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So it's like the state, it subject to the dark power,

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sort of loses this kind of it's not competent to

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make proper moral decisions, but it it kind of needs

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to be, and the church is competent in making infallible

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moral decisions, and therefore the church the state needs to

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sort of and when you look at the church, the

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church herself is going to identify the pope as that

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center of unity, the person who has this specific kerosm

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right along with the bishops in union with Him, has

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this specific kerosm to teach infallibly on faith and morals.

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And so I see the temple authority that the pope

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has as being not just a spiritual authority but also

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temporal in the sense of the state is not always competent,

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even in matters of morality, and so so I see

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and I also see the two like going together. They're

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not necessarily equal. Like I like the image that Leo

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the thirteenth uses of the soul in the body, which

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I know you're super familiar with, and that this the

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spiritual is meant to help heal and govern and direct

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properly the passions themselves. Right, the the temporal body of

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the state is moved should be moved by illuminated by

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the spiritual, the soul itself, which is that a spiritual

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authority that the pope has. I see the temporal authority also,

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I should say this as being an authority that the

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pope has over the laity. And I think it gets

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tricky when you're in secular governments that don't recognize Christ,

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that don't recognize that he has this authority. And so

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it's like, what does the church do? Does the pope.

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The pope technically has, as the Church says, all authority

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on earth, as Jesus has all authority on earth, temporal

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and spiritual. But what do you do when you when

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you have secular states that don't believe that he has

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temporal authority in the sense that he can you know,

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that he can define such things as what marriage is,

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you know, not just that he can give us, give

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us a proper definition of the trinity, or proper infallible

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definition of you know, whether females should well. So I

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think the nature is I think the Church and state

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is sort of convoluted because the nature and grace debate. Sorry,

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I'm here in my echoes.

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Speaker 1: Oh my bad, I have to write, but none I

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mean to go ahead, No.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, go ahead, Sorry.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, but here's the thing, Like, for the sake,

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for the sake of our discussion here, I'm not granting

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that the Bishop of Rome has any temporal authority at all. Now,

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maybe you can demonstrate that, but that's kind of what

382
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I'm going for here, is that the businessing model is

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that there are two spheres, and we do have a

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distinction in orthodoxiology between nature and grace. I would not

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say that it's the same kind of model that the

386
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Thomas have. It's very different. But this aside from the

387
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issue of Tomism. I mean again, I think we're not

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dis agreeing about the principle of whether the state has

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a duty to God, and ultimately we would hope in

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a predominantly Christian sphere it would be Christian. A Christian

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state is the ideal in the Orthodox view, when the

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majority of the people are Orthodox. At that point it's

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appropriate to have, you know, an Orthodox government and Orthodox laws.

394
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That's always been what's called the Symphonia model in the East.

395
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But I'm asking a different question to you, which is,

396
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first of all, where do you get the idea that

397
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the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop is even a thing?

398
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Is the first question, And I would ask for any

399
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Patristic era citation that there is such a thing in

400
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the first seven centuries, given the fact that Calcidon specifically

401
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forbade all clerics from having any civil governmental roles at

402
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the pain of excommunication, and there's no exemption for the

403
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Roman bishop under this canon. So I'm curious where do

404
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,279
you think that this. I understand you're going to say, well,

405
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it derives from the nature of the patrin office itself,

406
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in the supremacy of the of Peter and so forth.

407
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But I'm saying, where in the Church Fathers at all

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in the first seven centuries is anything akin to what

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dignity what Unum Sanctum and Dictatus Pope claim.

410
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Speaker 2: Okay, so what I would want to do is actually

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run this back and go through the entire story of scripture,

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but I'm not going to obviously do that now.

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Speaker 1: Well, but where we're disagreeing is the historic teaching of

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the Church's interpretation of the pastors, because I understand you're

415
00:23:28,319 --> 00:23:30,240
going to see a lot of passages that you think

416
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,519
vindicate this idea of temporal supremacy. And I'm directly giving

417
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:38,200
you patristic evidence at Chalcedon which rejects the notion of

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any clerics having any temporal supremacy or right to engage

419
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in those professions. And again, remember that the question is

420
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not does the Church have a say so in the

421
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,759
government or should the government be Christian. The contention is

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that Dictatus Pope and Unum Sanctum explicitly say that the

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pope is the emperor of emperors and king of kings,

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and above all emperors has the only right to use

425
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the imperial insignia, and that all emperors must kiss his feet.

426
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Where is that in any any patristic writing at all

427
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,079
in the first seven of the seventh centuries, except for

428
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the feigned forgeries like the Donation of Constantine, which backed

429
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up this doctrine.

430
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Speaker 2: Okay, So what I would what I would want to

431
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,599
do is as a Catholic, I would and you would

432
00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,599
affirm with this that Jesus Christ has all earthly authority.

433
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And you would say also that Jesus has all temporal authority.

434
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Are we equating that?

435
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Speaker 1: Or like I agree that the divine person of Christ

436
00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:37,240
is king of king's, Lord of lords, and he absolutely

437
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has all spiritual and temporal authority.

438
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So how would you how would you parse out

439
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,160
the idea that Jesus has all earthly authority? Where how

440
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,000
does he exercise that earthly authority here on earth that

441
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:51,960
temporal authority.

442
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Speaker 1: Well, when he ascended in our nature, he now in

443
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our nature possesses that the keys not just of death

444
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and Hades, but also, as you pointed out, I think

445
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in your opening salvo there you mentioned the all authority

446
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and all all kingdom's powers and dominion have been handed

447
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to him uh in the in the when he ascends,

448
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and I think the passage in Daniel and the passage

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in the Apocalypse or not about the end of the world.

450
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They're actually about the ascension. And that means that when

451
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he ascended, because he's now in our nature, what perhaps

452
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in a in a spiritual sense, might have been formerly

453
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the right or the temple, the temporary possession of Satan

454
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is now given to the God Man in our nature,

455
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and so his body, the Church actually possesses all reality.

456
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All of the universe will be our inheritance. But in

457
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the concourse of the of Church history, the way that

458
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I believe Christ has outlined for that governance to occur

459
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is not for the Church to have temporal supremacy, but

460
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for the Church and the state to be under God.

461
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That's the difference in the In the papal model, there

462
00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:02,160
is a single headed eagle that is embodied in the

463
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person of the pope, with temporal and spiritual supremacy. In

464
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the Byzantine double headed model, which is the entire history

465
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of Byzantium, it's church and state in their relative spheres.

466
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And that's why it was such a revolution for Dictatus,

467
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,680
Pope and for Unham's sanctum to now positive that salvation

468
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requires submission to the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop.

469
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Speaker 2: So what authority what authority then does the Eastern patriarch

470
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have over the emperor or over local government, say, does

471
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does he have any authority and the bishops have anythority over.

472
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Speaker 1: So the ideal situation of simponia is that the bishops

473
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and the church have authority in the spiritual realm, and

474
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so they could conceivably, in an ideal city setting, remove

475
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or reject or excommunicate, say a heterodox emperor. And there

476
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,960
are situations where that happened. We did have, how to

477
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,039
emperors at times that were considered to be expert for example,

478
00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:07,880
they're iconoclass emperors, and much of the Church rejected them,

479
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,599
although much of the church unfortunately fell to those heresies.

480
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,359
But for example, the ecumenical councils, they're all called by emperors.

481
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:19,359
And so clearly, and now I'm not saying that's necessarily ideal,

482
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,839
because eventually, when we have, you know, heterodox emperors, this

483
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,480
becomes a difficulty because it comes a challenge. Now, the

484
00:27:25,559 --> 00:27:28,799
Church didn't even in the East, didn't totally succumb to

485
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,519
heterodox emperors, or else we would all be iconoclass and

486
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:35,799
so forth. But the point I'm making is that the

487
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,519
mere fact that all the Ecumenical councils are literally called

488
00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:43,000
by the emperors, and even the Fifth Council is essentially

489
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:48,599
it's essentially Justinian telling Pope Vigilius what to do. He says,

490
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,400
you will submit to the decision of the council. And

491
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,519
Pope Vigilious doesn't say I'm above you, I have the

492
00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,279
spiritual authority. You're out of here. He submits. Now, whether

493
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:01,519
you think that's wrong or right, it at least shows

494
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:04,640
that at that time operant in the Fifth Ecumenical Council,

495
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,720
where by the way they teach pentharchy, the Fifth Ecumenical

496
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,119
Council says there is a pentarchy. The Pope didn't have

497
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,920
a problem at that time with pentarchy. The Pope submits

498
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,519
to the decision of the council and of Saint Justinian. Now, again,

499
00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:20,759
whether that's wrong or right, it shows that the mindset

500
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,240
of the church at that time at least is not

501
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,640
the mindset of dictatis pope and unam sanctum. That the

502
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,359
temporal supremacy the Roman bishop is just obviously self evident,

503
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,200
de facto and necessary for salvation.

504
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 2: So if the so, if the Patriarch of Constantinople is

505
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,759
is is living within a Christian state, and say the

506
00:28:43,759 --> 00:28:47,039
patriarch of Constantinople or an Eastern bishop says to that state,

507
00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:54,440
who's the is? Are you in communion with Eastern Orthodoxy?

508
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,279
Are you You're not in communion with the Russian patriarch? Right?

509
00:28:58,039 --> 00:29:00,279
Speaker 1: Or no? I attend the ro Court Church. I am

510
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:01,400
in communion with the MP.

511
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,079
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So let's say I forgot his name patriarch,

512
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:07,839
I forgot I'm sorry.

513
00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kirol is the Russian MP, and Bartholomew is the EP.

514
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew Bartholomew. So let's say, does does does patriarch?

515
00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:22,720
Does the Patriarch of Russia have any authority over right?

516
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:29,400
Now the president putin at all? Like if he excommunicates,

517
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,519
he has the authority to excommunicate Putin right? Or would

518
00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:32,960
you say no?

519
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean again, ideally the church does have that spiritual authority. Absolutely.

520
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,599
Now are there situations in church history where you could

521
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,200
have bishops installed by and manipulated by the state. Absolutely.

522
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,640
This is a thing that's happened many, many times in

523
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,599
church history in the East and in the West. For example,

524
00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:58,000
German kings for an entire century installed who was pope.

525
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,960
So if this is not something unique to the East,

526
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:03,759
is very common in the East and the West.

527
00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:09,079
Speaker 2: Sorry I might have asked that wrong, but I'm asking

528
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:14,480
that if the patriarch of Russia has an authority to

529
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:20,559
determine matters of faith and morals for Russia and the

530
00:30:20,559 --> 00:30:24,039
president of Russia, and let's say they're living in a

531
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,960
Christenum kind of thing right where it's a Christian community. See,

532
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,880
I would see if the patriarch says, hey, marriage is

533
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,319
between a man and a woman, so you need to

534
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:37,480
reverse this decision that's on the books. I want you

535
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,559
President Putin to do that, and does he have does

536
00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:47,279
he have that authority which I would see as as

537
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,279
kind of a as a temporal authority. This is why

538
00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:52,440
I think we might be talking past each other with

539
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:55,319
what do we mean by temporal authority? Right?

540
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: So again I would say that yes, the Again, the church,

541
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:01,519
and by the way, the church is not just sort

542
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:04,720
of like patriarchs are not little popes. They have canonical

543
00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:08,240
privileges within their jurisdictions, and they may have large jurisdictions

544
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,319
and a lot of influence, but they're still part of

545
00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:14,480
a synod. And so one big difference between the Orthodox

546
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:17,079
Church and the Rome Mecalloic Church is that the Orthodox

547
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,519
Church is far more decentralized than it is centralized. So

548
00:31:20,559 --> 00:31:24,759
even patriarchs are very limited by decisions of and the

549
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:28,920
participation and the college. You could say, of the rest

550
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,960
of the bishops in their synod, we would say that's

551
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,039
really just the ancient model of the church. But so ideally,

552
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,200
again setting aside the possibility of the state, you know,

553
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:43,400
influencing bishops or KGB bishops during the Cold War and

554
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,279
this kind of stuff, ideally the position is that, yes,

555
00:31:46,359 --> 00:31:50,160
the Church has the authority to say any state ruler

556
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,759
or king or president or whatever is excommunicated and is

557
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:58,680
in error if he does something like that. Right, they

558
00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,519
have that authority.

559
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:00,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

560
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: And so for if kirole writes a letter or sends

561
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,759
out an encyclical and says, you know, we reaffirm the

562
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:11,079
traditional teaching that marriage is between men and a woman,

563
00:32:11,359 --> 00:32:14,680
and we reject you know, president whoever, let's say Putin

564
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,519
decides he's pro gay or something, we reject this decision

565
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,240
and he must return to the Orthodox faith. In the

566
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,640
position of marriage between men and a woman. That isn't

567
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:30,279
anything to do with the church having suddenly temporal authority.

568
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:33,240
They're still in their sphere. And because the Church, the

569
00:32:33,279 --> 00:32:37,079
spiritual authority, is superior to the temporal authority, it doesn't

570
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,519
mean that the Church now becomes a civil authority, you see,

571
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,839
because there's still those spheares. And that's precisely the canonical

572
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,559
limitations that Calcidon is laying out. Chalcodon is saying that

573
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,799
it makes no sense for clergy to be state rulers

574
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:55,000
or to have jobs in the state, meaning, uh, cleric

575
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,400
shouldn't be going to war. They don't have standing armies,

576
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,279
which the papacy eventually has, by the way, in the

577
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:04,319
Alexander Pope Alexander. So all these violations revolve around the

578
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,720
violations of the spheres. But having spheres doesn't mean that

579
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:11,440
you can't speak to the state or tell the state

580
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,640
it ought to be doing those things. In fact, that's

581
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:14,319
what your duty is.

582
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:22,559
Speaker 2: Okay. So I don't know where necessarily I disagree. I mean,

583
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:24,000
I like what you're saying.

584
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:27,799
Speaker 1: Let me restate the question, and I'm not trying to

585
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:30,240
be rude, but like I want an answer to where

586
00:33:30,279 --> 00:33:33,440
in the first seven centuries of the Church fathers, is

587
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,160
there anything like what you're saying of a Bishop of

588
00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:41,960
Rome or any bishop taking on temporal authority and power.

589
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: I don't think you see the Bishop of Rome. Now

590
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,920
I'm not a church historian, I'm not well as well

591
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,079
versed as you are in this, but I don't think

592
00:33:53,119 --> 00:34:00,200
I see the pope taking on a temporal authority in

593
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,559
the way that you're describing. I think I'm having trouble

594
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:04,599
understanding what.

595
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: But the way that I'm describing was the descriptions of

596
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,719
Dictatus pape and Unum sanctum. That's the medieval Roman Catholic

597
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,480
papal definitions of what temporal supremacy means on the part

598
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:17,320
of the Roman bishop.

599
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,679
Speaker 2: I think that I think that it depends if the

600
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,719
pope is going to claim temporal authority, just make a

601
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,079
broad claim. Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and

602
00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:32,360
on earth. The Pope's going to say he's the chief steward.

603
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,239
But it's going to look different when you have those

604
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,519
in society that are either a society made up of

605
00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:44,000
the Catholic laity Christian laity, or a society that's not

606
00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:46,239
made up of the Christian laity, So why so the

607
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,679
church winn't Okay, so hope isn't going in the first

608
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,280
several centuries, the pope.

609
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: Is not going to make no claim again Chalcidon is

610
00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:56,199
four fifty one, fifty four to fifty one. We're at

611
00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:00,000
the period where there is even post Theodosias and explicit

612
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,960
least somewhat Catholic we would say orthodox Catholic. And let

613
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,679
me read Canon seven of Calcadon again. We have decreed

614
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,039
that those have been enrolled in the clergy or become

615
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:14,079
monastics shall neither accept military charge nor any secular dignity.

616
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,960
If they presume to do so and they do not repent,

617
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,400
they are anathematized as Canon seven of Chalcedon. That's explicitly

618
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,559
in a period where there is profuse Christianization of the

619
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:28,920
Roman Empire, maybe not total, but very widespread, clearly canonical

620
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,920
limitations on clergy being involved in state positions.

621
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: Okay, but I don't think that when the Pope Jesus

622
00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:45,480
Christ is exercising his earthly authority through the Bishop of Rome,

623
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,239
through the bishops, through the Catholic Lady, so the Church

624
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:54,440
is exercising a temporal authority a temple puttestos or octoorisos

625
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,880
through the Catholic laity. And this is what I said

626
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,039
in my video, that the pope is not taking on

627
00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:05,559
a temporal secular office, secular dignity, or a military but

628
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:07,000
he is. No, he is.

629
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,519
Speaker 1: But I'm not trying to be rude, but like Dictatus

630
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:14,239
Pope explicitly says that he is. And when I'm saying

631
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,360
yeah so, and when I'm psyched, him explicitly says that

632
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,039
if you do not accept that temporal power and authority,

633
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:27,400
you're not saved. So Dictatus Pope, which is under Gregory

634
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,400
the seventh, ten ninety, this is registered in the papal registry.

635
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,239
At that time. There wasn't such a thing at that

636
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,280
time as far as we know, as anything like an

637
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,239
official Execantheti's statement. There was just what was called a

638
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,960
papal registry. And I'll read the dictates of Diktata's poppy

639
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,400
in ten ninety. The Roman Church is founded by God alone.

640
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,840
The Roman pontiff alone is called universal. The Roman pontiff

641
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,159
alone can reinstate bishops in a council his league eate,

642
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,480
even if a lower grade is above all bishops, and

643
00:36:55,519 --> 00:36:58,480
can pass a sentence and deposition of any bishop. The

644
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:01,880
Pope may depose those that are out that, among other things,

645
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:03,960
we ought to remain in the same not ought not

646
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,840
to remain in the same house with anyone excommunicated by

647
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,800
the Pope. That it is alone alone lawful for according

648
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,760
to the needs of the time, the Pope to make new

649
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,000
laws and assemble congregations, to make new abbey's canonry and

650
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:23,000
other operations, including the enriched new bishoprics, or unite the

651
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,039
poor bishoprics. He alone may use and wear the imperial

652
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:32,400
insignia the Pope alone, of the Pope alone, shall all

653
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,880
princes kiss his feet, that his name alone shall be

654
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,920
spoken in all the churches. This is the only name

655
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,719
in the world. It is permitted to the pope alone

656
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,599
to depose emperors. It is permitted to the bope pope

657
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,719
alone to transfer bishops if needed. The Pope alone has

658
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,320
the power to ordain a cleric of any church as

659
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,320
he may wish. Now you understand that prior to this,

660
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:57,159
it wasn't the papist, the papacy that ordained all bishops

661
00:37:57,159 --> 00:38:00,960
in the world. Right, Yeah, So now keep it. There's more,

662
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,159
because it goes on to say, no one may judge

663
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:06,400
the first sea, no one can be condemned to appeals

664
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,159
to the apostolic chair. The Roman pontiff alone can make

665
00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:14,559
all of these decisions without any consent of a subordinate.

666
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,920
The Roman pope alone can oppose and reinstate bishops without

667
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,000
any synod. It goes on and on on. It's essentially

668
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:22,639
more and more of the same. But the point is

669
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,719
that you have very clearly the first time. And by

670
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,679
the way, this is not just my opinion. If you

671
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,079
read de Vornik, if you read Kongar and nine hundred

672
00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:34,599
years together, or after nine hundred years, if you read Sashensky,

673
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,760
who eventually was a Catholic solular that became Orthodox, they

674
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,800
will all. If you read Papacy in the Orthodox, all

675
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,679
of these texts, including the Papadocus mind Orf History of

676
00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:47,119
the Church in Middle Ages, all of these texts from

677
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Uniate and Orthodox scholars of this period will admit that

678
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:55,079
dictatus pope was the normative mindset of the Roman Catholic

679
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:58,079
Church in the eleventh century in the Gregorian reforms. So

680
00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:01,480
this is particularly the shift period where the church is

681
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,599
moving out of a collegial sonodal model that you see

682
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,039
even up into the seventhda Medical Council, where they still

683
00:39:07,039 --> 00:39:10,360
talk about pentarchy. Now it's becoming a sole a talk

684
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,639
autocratic model. And it's not accidental that at this time

685
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:17,320
period is when you have these outrageous claims of temporal

686
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,159
power and supremacy, which I would argue really come to

687
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,880
a full fruition A couple centuries later in Unum signed

688
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,840
them the thirteen oh two Bowl of Pope Bonifice the eight,

689
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:30,519
which argues that all of those temporal claims that the

690
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:33,599
pope has authority over all, emperors can depose it will.

691
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,719
And this is precisely what leads Alexander and other Renaissance

692
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,960
popes to have standing armies. It's because of Unum signed them,

693
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:45,679
and they based these things on Samachian forgeries donation of

694
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,519
constant to things that were forgeries. So how at all

695
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,400
can any of that be justified in the first eight

696
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,440
centuries of Christian theology and churches.

697
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: So I think you and I are disagreeing. What I see.

698
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:02,280
What I think I'm disagreeing with you on is that

699
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,199
to claim temporal authority does not equal or automatically mean

700
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,360
that one is holding to a secular office or secular

701
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:19,480
dignity So what I see happening in these documents is

702
00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:22,639
exactly what you had read, which is that the pope

703
00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:26,559
has authority over a legitimate society, which is the Church,

704
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:30,440
and when secular rulers the laity. When when those secular

705
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,639
rulers are the laity, they have authority over them, and

706
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:37,599
so they can depose emperors and in that sense they

707
00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:41,159
have temporal authority, But the pope is not by deposing

708
00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:45,280
an emperor then becoming an emperor. So I see this

709
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,480
is why I think that it can choose. Ecclesiology is

710
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:53,320
helpful here because it puts it when we say that

711
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:59,840
the Church has secular has has spiritual and temporal authority. Yes,

712
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:02,679
the pope has it, but in terms of temporal, earthly

713
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,360
authority that is exercised through the Catholic lady and union

714
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:05,880
with the pope.

715
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so when we get to Alexander and the Renaissance, Borgia,

716
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,199
et cetera, medici era of the papacy and the pope

717
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:15,079
has standing armies, you don't think that has anything to

718
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:16,320
do with these documents.

719
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't necessarily. I mean, I think it's a

720
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,800
good challenge that you're bringing up, Jay, But I don't,

721
00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:24,239
I mean, because then I would have to say, I mean,

722
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,159
what are the I mean, the pope has a secret service,

723
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,159
The Pope still owns private property, the Pope is still

724
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,760
the sovereign over the two and a half square miles

725
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,679
that he's in. I mean, well, but that he.

726
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:39,119
Speaker 1: Does these things, how does that prove that it's that

727
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:41,280
it should be done. I agree he does and has

728
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,000
all these things, but what does that have to do

729
00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:44,239
with whether it's it's right.

730
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, could you reac could you ask the question.

731
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,159
Speaker 1: That the pope has these things we don't disagree on,

732
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,000
but my challenge is should the pope do and have

733
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:56,320
these things? Is the challenge?

734
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? So you're saying that when the Council in its

735
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,280
case and says that that that no religious cleric should

736
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:11,800
should hold a secular office, right military Otherwise that when

737
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,559
the pope is owning a piece of property and then

738
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:20,719
making himself basically a secular sovereign over the two and

739
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,280
a half square miles.

740
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: No over all emperors in the world.

741
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but I'm just in reality the emperors

742
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:29,199
in the world.

743
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,679
Speaker 1: The problem is not the church owning property, obviously the

744
00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:36,360
Moscow patriarch. It owns many, many properties, properties and monasteries

745
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,519
and cathedrals, has a lot of money. The problem is

746
00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:42,039
not the owning of property. The problem is affairs of

747
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:46,199
the state, and that sphere now being the job of

748
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,519
the papacy, such that by the time of the Middle Ages,

749
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:55,639
the Renaissance era, you actually have like geopolitical world power operatives. Right,

750
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,679
We've got spies, we've got assassins, We've got all this

751
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,840
stuff going on in the Borgia period even up to today.

752
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,559
Now I know you've had You've had talks with your

753
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:13,800
buddy Tim Flanders, and Tim has done interviews with David Wimhoff,

754
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,960
who's five hundred page book I've lectured through and talked

755
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,960
about for many years, John Courtney Murray, the CIA Time

756
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,360
Life magazine, the relationship between the CIA and the Vatican,

757
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,239
particularly a Vatican two, and part of the thesis of

758
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,960
that book. I'm not saying it's true because Tim Flanders interviewed.

759
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,159
I'm just saying that there is this is not outlandish.

760
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,920
Part of the thesis of that book is that at

761
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,800
the time of Vatican Two, for example, there was such

762
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,960
a tight relationship between the Council fathers, at least many

763
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,239
of them and the CIA that is very difficult to

764
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,519
divorce the decisions of the Second Acumenical Council, of the

765
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:49,159
Psychomatican Council, and what the designs of the ci I

766
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,039
were at that time. That to me, that's another example

767
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:56,079
of Cicero Papism, or perhaps Papalo Csrism, because the CIA

768
00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:59,639
is really telling, you know, many of the popes at

769
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:01,960
that time and what to do. Now. I don't want

770
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,039
to deflect off into Batican two, but let me give

771
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:07,519
you another type of example to demonstrate this. And there's

772
00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:09,000
a great chapter on this. I know you might not

773
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:13,079
agree with it, but Papadacus and Mayandorf of a great

774
00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:16,239
book called the Christian East and the Rise of the Papacy.

775
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:17,800
And the reason this book is so good is that

776
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:20,400
it's treating precise to this period of ten seventy one

777
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,840
to fourteen fifty three, which is where we really see

778
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,599
the pivoting between East and West going in different directions.

779
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,679
We would argue the East goes in the continuation of

780
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,320
what the mindset of the Church of the first millennium was,

781
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,000
with so noidality, and we would argue that the Western

782
00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:36,880
Latin Church, the Latin Franco papal church goes in the

783
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:42,480
direction of this sort of papal geopolitical power and monarchy.

784
00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:46,880
The end of this chapter discussing the gregoring reforms of

785
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,079
the eleventh and twelfth century and on into even later

786
00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:53,079
popes who went even further than gravy the seventh did.

787
00:44:53,639 --> 00:44:57,159
There was a rise of something very new called the

788
00:44:57,199 --> 00:45:01,440
fighting orders, the monastic fighting orders. And this is something

789
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,960
very new, and what Papa Doocus and Mandorf argue is

790
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,280
that post Dick Taught is pope. This allowed the papacies

791
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,960
to essentially create, although not yet a full on standing army,

792
00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:18,119
monastic warrior monks who would be really the monk knight

793
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,079
armies of the papacy. And so originally I'm not saying

794
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:23,760
that they are. Now, I know, we all know the

795
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,760
history of the Templars, I think, but originally the Templars

796
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,119
and their history and the knights hospital and so forth

797
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:34,719
were actually to be agents knights and warrior monks of

798
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,559
the papacy. Now, maybe you think that's cool or whatever.

799
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:41,119
There's I mean, it's from a literary perspective, I guess

800
00:45:41,119 --> 00:45:43,079
it's kind of cool. But did you notice that at

801
00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:47,920
Chalcadon all monastics are forbidden from any kind of warfare

802
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:51,079
or anything like this. Now, whether you think it's right

803
00:45:51,159 --> 00:45:53,840
or wrong, does it not at least show a vast

804
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:57,719
shift in the eleventh century to have warrior fighting monks

805
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,880
that are the agents of the pope. Does that not

806
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,360
show a big difference between the way the Church in

807
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:17,280
the first thousand years viewed monasticism. Are you there? You're muted,

808
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,000
so I don't know if you if something got muted,

809
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:19,760
I can't hear you.

810
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: All right, I apologize, I can hear you. Yeah, I

811
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,559
don't know the history as well as you, so I

812
00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:27,400
don't really feel like I should comment on it. But

813
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:31,039
it does seem, you know, interesting that the pope says, hey,

814
00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:33,880
you know you religious? Can you read the canon one

815
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,480
more time and say what it is so I can

816
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,599
have it in front of me specifically what it is?

817
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's history, right.

818
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: This is a doctrinel.

819
00:46:44,159 --> 00:46:47,079
Speaker 1: Well, I mean all the canons of the councils are

820
00:46:47,119 --> 00:46:50,880
potentially doctrinal and or disciplinary. Really depends on which canon

821
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,239
it is and what it's about. Uh, But this is

822
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,480
specifically Canon seven of the Council of Calcidon, And I

823
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,800
would add that it's not the only canon like this,

824
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,079
it's just one of their earliest and clearest, which says,

825
00:47:02,199 --> 00:47:04,280
we have decreed that those who have been enrolled amongst

826
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,199
the clergy or have become monastics, that they shall neither

827
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,519
accept military charge nor any secular dignity. If they presume

828
00:47:11,599 --> 00:47:13,320
to do so, and do not repent in such a

829
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,039
wise to turn again to what they had first chosen

830
00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:18,599
for the love of God, they shall be anathematized. And

831
00:47:18,679 --> 00:47:21,239
so this is we would say. And this, by the way,

832
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,840
this canon and others are part of what forms the

833
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,559
Byzantine model of the relationship of church and state. So

834
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:32,639
maybe we're getting we were getting confused earlier about when

835
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,280
you say the temporal power. Maybe you thought that meant

836
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,679
like anything relating to the temporal. What I meant was

837
00:47:40,199 --> 00:47:44,000
the state, the imperium. And so in the Byzantine model,

838
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,800
the state ruler is seen to be a diaconos, a

839
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,480
deacon of a sort, because Paul and roman Is thirteen

840
00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:56,079
says the Roman emperor is a diaconos, which is why

841
00:47:56,159 --> 00:47:59,440
in the Eastern tradition he can actually go behind the altar.

842
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:02,000
He has a seat back there with the clergy. The

843
00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:05,239
emperor does I like that. Yeah, yeah, and that's intended

844
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,880
to show the businessing model is that the state ruler

845
00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:11,119
is an icon of God and should be an icon

846
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:14,239
of the Church and of Christ as much as the

847
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,480
people in the church and the members of the church

848
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,079
and the clergy should be icons of God. That's the goal.

849
00:48:19,159 --> 00:48:21,800
The ideal doesn't mean it's gonna always happen, but that's

850
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,519
what we're shooting for. However, that doesn't mean that the

851
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:29,159
church becomes the state or the state becomes the church.

852
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,760
So there is we would argue again, two heads. The

853
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,000
heads are not supposed to be melded into a big

854
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:39,880
papal head. They're different spheres. And this is really the

855
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,559
model that you see in the first thousand years. And

856
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:45,519
that's why I keep pointing to that eleventh century period

857
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:48,920
where even the Orthodox and Uniate scholars admit there's a

858
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,760
huge shift. I mean, I.

859
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 2: Like a lot of what you're saying, even the point

860
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,679
about the deacons, I mean, clergy still can't run for

861
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,320
office today, right, they're not allowed to. Actually deacons are

862
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,639
allowed to. Right, the mayor of Downey, the mayor of

863
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,079
Downey was a deacon of the Catholic Well, this.

864
00:49:12,159 --> 00:49:14,679
Speaker 1: Is this is the actually difference between Orthodox and Catholics.

865
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,039
For the Orthodox, deacons are actually part of the priesthood.

866
00:49:18,519 --> 00:49:21,199
And uh, I don't think in the Roman Catholic view

867
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,760
deacons have any role of priesthood. But for Orthodox deacons

868
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,000
are part of the priesthood.

869
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think deacons would be part of the

870
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:35,400
clergy in the Catholic a Catholic understanding. But which is

871
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,039
why you know the Canon seven would would exclude the clergy,

872
00:49:41,159 --> 00:49:43,320
and it does. It does say monks there too, so

873
00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:48,599
very fact that they they they call fourth as you

874
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:52,280
said that you have these monk like armies. Now I

875
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,760
do know that. You know, there's this what's this book called?

876
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,800
It's really good? Uh it's called since you're bringing up

877
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:11,719
books here, Uh, monasticism. It's about monasticism and the the

878
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,119
martial elements of monasticism. Uh. Sorry one second, if I

879
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:23,039
could get it where it's at. Uh whatever, But it's

880
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,440
it talks about how Actually, let me see, I'll look

881
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:33,760
up the book. Uh who is it by? What's her name?

882
00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:40,599
Bear with me here for a second.

883
00:50:43,199 --> 00:50:47,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fine. While you're doing that, somebody said, what

884
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:52,320
about the lower orders and clergy? No, so readers in

885
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:58,280
the Orthodox Church are not members of the priesthood. The

886
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,880
first order of priesthood Orthodox Church is the d'ac in it.

887
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,960
Hence why for example, it's not in the Orthodox Church,

888
00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:08,159
is not wrong to call a deacon father deacon, right,

889
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:11,800
that's that's fairly common in certain jurisdictions. But a reader, No,

890
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,440
a reader is not part of the priesthood. And in

891
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,719
the Orthodox view, this has to do with who and

892
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,000
what can do things, that can do things at the

893
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:24,320
altar or behind the econostasis. Right, So readers they don't

894
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,400
go and touch the Eucharist and this kind of stuff

895
00:51:26,599 --> 00:51:28,679
because they're not part of the priest in the Orthodox Church.

896
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:34,039
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Catherine alan Binem and I don't say this

897
00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:38,880
to make any any point towards my argument, but she

898
00:51:39,079 --> 00:51:41,400
has a really good book called War and the Making

899
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,760
of Medieval Monastic Culture, and it's a it's actually a

900
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,239
book that's influenced me a lot, even in terms of

901
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,840
my ecclesiology, because I think that when you look at

902
00:51:51,159 --> 00:51:55,320
the rise of early monasticism and war, because many of

903
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,880
these monks, like Saint Anthony, many of them were soldiers,

904
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,039
that after they retired from being soldiers, they became monks,

905
00:52:03,519 --> 00:52:06,880
and so you have basically what she does. It's the

906
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:13,119
subtitle is uh, I can't see the subtitle. It's just

907
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,239
it's more in the making a monastic culture. There is

908
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,199
no subtitle. And but she tracks it from the early centuries,

909
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,800
early on, like right out of the Gates, first second century,

910
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,000
and then she goes all the way through medieval monasticism.

911
00:52:29,679 --> 00:52:32,760
And she points out that a lot of these soldiers

912
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,760
that are retiring from military active duty, they would go

913
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,119
and join the monastery. And so what it ended up

914
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:41,199
because there were so many what it ended up doing

915
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,400
is creating within monastic culture, like even Saint Benedict, right,

916
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,119
a former soldier who is one of the founders of

917
00:52:49,159 --> 00:52:54,519
early monasticism, and his shield, you know, his his his

918
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:58,760
emblem of you know what, get behind me, Satan. What

919
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,079
you offer me is the evil drink, the poison yourself.

920
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:04,679
You know, that's his in Latin, that's his, that's on

921
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:10,679
his his what do you call it symbol, his crest.

922
00:53:11,119 --> 00:53:14,960
And the whole idea is that you have within monasticism,

923
00:53:15,079 --> 00:53:19,039
just this idea of it's a battle against the dark powers.

924
00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:21,480
And what she draws out is all of the analogies

925
00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:25,039
between that they used in taking all of their military

926
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:31,639
experience and then transferring it into the monastic spiritual fight.

927
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:35,960
So I'm not surprised that it could have been the case. Again,

928
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,199
you know the history better than me that if the

929
00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:41,880
pope is going to call forth a military, if many

930
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,880
of those guys are that know how to fight are

931
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,920
in the in the monastery, he might have to pull

932
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,199
them out of.

933
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: And again, but that's the whole point of what I'm

934
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,280
trying to say, is that the pope is not supposed

935
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,599
to call for standing armies, crusades, all this stuff. And

936
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:05,079
note that my objection has not what but.

937
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:07,679
Speaker 2: I think he can? He can, he can't. He does

938
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,559
have a certain authority where he could he could deem

939
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,840
something as as a holy war, call for Catholics to

940
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,639
take up arms, and because they are the laity, he

941
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,079
has a kind of authority or.

942
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:23,119
Speaker 1: Well, I mean yeah, but that's the whole thing that's

943
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:25,480
in question. So you keep saying that, well, he has

944
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:27,599
this authority. I think he has this authority. I haven't

945
00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:30,239
granted that he ever has that authority. And again, the

946
00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:33,000
attitude of the Church of the first seven eighth centuries

947
00:54:33,079 --> 00:54:35,440
is that no cleric has that authority. You don't see

948
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,800
anything like that. There's absolutely nothing like that at all

949
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:42,480
until the period that we've been discussing about eleven twelve

950
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,599
thirteenth century. That's the first time we see that. And

951
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:49,480
it's not accidental that we see that in absolute concord

952
00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:52,199
with the time where the papacy begins to make these

953
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:56,519
outrageous dictatus pap claims, because it is now becoming a worldly,

954
00:54:56,599 --> 00:55:00,840
geopolitical institution that has nothing to do with other Jesus

955
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,840
has authority in the temporal sphere, which we all agree,

956
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,440
but we would argue that Jesus established limitations for what's

957
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,239
appropriate for the state to do and what's appropriate for

958
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,760
the Church to do. So for example, the church can't

959
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,519
come in and tell the state, I want you to

960
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:20,119
go attack all of my enemies. I'm the pope, and

961
00:55:20,119 --> 00:55:22,320
if you don't, I'll ex communicate you, which is what

962
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,159
the Borgia posts did. Likewise, the state can't come in

963
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,800
and say I mandate that you teach arianism because I'm

964
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,639
the emperor and you must do what I say. There's

965
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,719
limitations to both of these spears, and anytime one overlaps

966
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,639
or takes over the other one, you get this aberration,

967
00:55:39,039 --> 00:55:41,480
which is precisely what we would say that last thousand

968
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:43,079
years of Rome is. And I don't know if you've

969
00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:46,880
read the Alexandria Document from the Vatican in regards to

970
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,239
the Eastern churches, but the Alexandria Document admits many of

971
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,760
these critiques that the East has had for so many years.

972
00:55:56,639 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I know the document points out many of

973
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,440
the many of the erroneous documents that were forgeries, you know.

974
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,360
But but what what I think. I think that it's

975
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,880
not just the whole idea of temporal power that I

976
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,639
think is where we're disagreeing. I think it's like when

977
00:56:14,679 --> 00:56:18,079
you say stuff that like this is not the job

978
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:22,880
of the papacy. You said that earlier, and I agree,

979
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,559
that's the job of the laity. But I think that

980
00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:30,039
the the the laity, just from a Catholic perspective. I

981
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:31,760
know you disagree with this, but this is just how

982
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,679
it's working out in my mind. Right. The laity are

983
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,159
under the pope, and the pope and the bishops have

984
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,039
this teaching authority that extends not just to supernatural revelation

985
00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:46,599
that we couldn't know on our own right, but natural revelation,

986
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,960
not even the natural moral law, and so as the laity,

987
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,280
the pope does have authority to define matters of morals

988
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,960
that will impact how I govern and what kind of

989
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,920
how I govern my particular state and the laws that

990
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:02,880
I'm going to implement. When the bishop, the USCCB, or

991
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:08,639
the pope says something specific about some moral issue, it's it,

992
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:13,599
and it's somewhat definitive. It's not just you know, a

993
00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:16,719
recommendation or something or some off the cuff mark. Then

994
00:57:17,039 --> 00:57:20,480
he does have some authority when they say that abortion

995
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:26,480
is abortion is wrong, that that has some sort of authority,

996
00:57:26,559 --> 00:57:29,079
some sort of play in a when you have a

997
00:57:29,239 --> 00:57:33,679
laity that is in charge. And so, like you said,

998
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:36,760
what the church can do and what the state can do,

999
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:41,840
And what I'm struggling with, Jay, is that what happens

1000
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,519
when the state is made up of the church. So

1001
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:49,599
I want to see the church as not just the pope,

1002
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,079
not just the pope. The church is not just the pope,

1003
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:55,440
and it's not just the bishops. It's the laity as well.

1004
00:57:56,199 --> 00:57:58,400
And so when you say what the church can do

1005
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:03,239
and with the state can do, it's like, well, there

1006
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:08,079
are Catholics in the state, and so the Catholics are

1007
00:58:08,119 --> 00:58:10,800
making in a units society. Where you have a Christian society,

1008
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,920
the Catholics are the state. And so therefore because the

1009
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:16,719
Catholic laity are part of the Church and they make

1010
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:21,880
up the state, it gets very difficult to to kind

1011
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,679
of make the distinction or division that I feel like

1012
00:58:26,239 --> 00:58:29,159
you kind of now.

1013
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: But you say, again, this is already the situation in

1014
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,239
say the centuries of four fifty to say nine hundred.

1015
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,119
The majority of the empire is already Christian. We already

1016
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:45,320
have a succession now of Byzantine emperors who are at

1017
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:50,000
least somewhat Christian, and perhaps even possibly saints if we

1018
00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:52,920
talk about Saint Justinian, and so we already have this

1019
00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:57,159
model the situation there. It's not something that we have

1020
00:58:57,199 --> 00:59:01,880
to figure out retroactively century later. It's already there in

1021
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,280
these centuries. And we have this double headed Egle model

1022
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:11,119
for a reason because it's exactly the model that it's

1023
00:59:11,159 --> 00:59:18,320
exactly the model that you see in the councils, particularly four, five, six, seven,

1024
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,719
and the way they speak of the relationship between the

1025
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,920
Church and the states. So it's not a mystery you

1026
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,679
have that as the normative guiding principle. The double headed

1027
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:31,119
Egle model, and then we get a radical alteration in

1028
00:59:31,159 --> 00:59:33,840
the eleventh twelve thirteenth century in the West where they

1029
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,280
go a different pathway. So the difference between what you

1030
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,400
just laid out, which a lot of it sounds good

1031
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,480
and you're saying, yeah, but the pope is just kind

1032
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,360
of speaking to Catholic laity, so by necessity there's going

1033
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,480
to kind of be you know, Catholic wars and Catholic rulers. No, no,

1034
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:54,079
that's not what's in question with dictatus pope and when

1035
00:59:54,079 --> 00:59:57,039
I'm sanctum, this is the pope now going beyond that

1036
00:59:57,199 --> 01:00:01,480
and saying, because of the donation of cons in the

1037
01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:06,599
Samakian forgeries, I now am the emperor of emperors. That's

1038
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:09,000
different than saying that the Church can speak to the

1039
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:11,360
state and tell them that they're wrong about you know,

1040
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,440
gay marriage or whatever. This is the pope saying I

1041
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,519
am the emperor of emperors. I'm not just the head

1042
01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:19,960
of the Church. I am the emperor of emperors. You

1043
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,320
don't see that. That's like vastly different than the model

1044
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,920
of bishops or even the papacy earlier in the sixth

1045
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,360
seventh century speaking to and telling emperors that they're heretics,

1046
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,360
and that they're excommunicated. It's a step further to say

1047
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,199
that I am also the king of kings and emperor

1048
01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:39,119
of emperors, and I can call armies and do what

1049
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:40,119
I list.

1050
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think because Jesus has that authority, and he

1051
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:49,119
exercises it through the papers. He exercises that teaching authority. Again,

1052
01:00:49,519 --> 01:00:51,960
how does Jesus? I think the question comes down to

1053
01:00:52,159 --> 01:00:54,639
the relationship between the clergy and the lady. And this

1054
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,639
is why I asked you earlier. What kind of authority

1055
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,440
does patriarch Bartholom, you or any other patriarch have over

1056
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:04,119
And I know they're not little popes, but they do

1057
01:01:04,159 --> 01:01:07,960
have authority over the laity, the Orthodox laity that are

1058
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:09,400
in their region that are rulers.

1059
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can excommunicate. They have a spiritual power. But

1060
01:01:13,119 --> 01:01:16,400
that does not mean that here's the false enough, here's

1061
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,519
the analogy. Yeah, here's the analogy. Here's where the analogy

1062
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:22,920
would break down. It would be like Kirol saying I

1063
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,119
am also the Emperor of Russia. That's the breakdown of

1064
01:01:27,119 --> 01:01:31,000
the analogy. So we agree that the church can tell

1065
01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:33,760
the state things and they have a power to excommunicate

1066
01:01:34,079 --> 01:01:36,239
a king or a president or a rule or whatever.

1067
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:39,079
But the difference is that Kiro can't come in and

1068
01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:43,159
say I am the emperor of all Russia. Is that some.

1069
01:01:43,239 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 2: Point, Yeah, I don't think the pope is is. I

1070
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,079
think it just depends on it.

1071
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: It depends on Have you read sanctum the wording of um.

1072
01:01:58,119 --> 01:02:00,599
Speaker 2: Yes, I have, I haven't read it in a while.

1073
01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:02,199
I mean, we could go through it if you want.

1074
01:02:02,119 --> 01:02:04,559
Speaker 1: Right, Well, it says, particularly at the end, if you

1075
01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:07,320
do not accept and remember the context was the Pope

1076
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,599
being imprisoned and this kind of stuff at the time.

1077
01:02:10,159 --> 01:02:14,840
And the statement at the end is that if you

1078
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:20,320
do not accept that the terrestrial power is underneath the

1079
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,519
petrine and spiritual power to the extent that the Pope

1080
01:02:24,559 --> 01:02:28,480
is also a temporal ruler, you are excommunicated. And my

1081
01:02:28,639 --> 01:02:33,480
challenge is that this is never taking Well, it's kind

1082
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:35,599
of long. I don't mind reading it, but perhaps not

1083
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:36,480
the whole thing.

1084
01:02:36,519 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: Not the whole thing, but if you have the specific line.

1085
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,199
Speaker 1: It's the last leste. According to Blessed Dionysius, the law

1086
01:02:45,239 --> 01:02:47,880
of the divinity is that the lowest things reach the

1087
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,159
highest places by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of

1088
01:02:51,199 --> 01:02:54,000
the universe. All things are not led back to the

1089
01:02:54,119 --> 01:02:57,119
order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary,

1090
01:02:57,159 --> 01:03:00,000
and the inferior by the superior. Hence, we must recognize

1091
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:03,519
more clearly that the spiritual power possesses indignity and nobility,

1092
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,440
any temporal power whatever. So notice the argument is that

1093
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,000
because the spiritual is above the temporal, therefore the spiritual

1094
01:03:11,039 --> 01:03:15,960
has any temporal power whatsoever, since spiritual things surpassed the temporal.

1095
01:03:16,519 --> 01:03:19,280
This we see very clearly also by the payment benediction

1096
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,119
and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power

1097
01:03:23,159 --> 01:03:26,719
itself by the government even of things. For with truth

1098
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,280
as our witness, it belongs to the spiritual power to

1099
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:32,599
establish the earthly power and to pass judgment on it

1100
01:03:32,639 --> 01:03:36,119
if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished by

1101
01:03:36,159 --> 01:03:39,760
the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning the Church and the Church power.

1102
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,800
Behold today, I have placed you over kingdoms, nations and

1103
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,440
kingdoms and the rest. So notice the prophecy of the

1104
01:03:47,519 --> 01:03:50,559
Church and the prediction of Christ there is applied now

1105
01:03:50,599 --> 01:03:54,159
to the pope the Jeremiah passage, as if that's telling

1106
01:03:54,239 --> 01:03:56,960
the pope that he has the ability to be a

1107
01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:01,000
geopolitical world power and emperor. Right, that would argue that's

1108
01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:06,039
totally out of context, not at all. What what No,

1109
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:08,840
it is not arguing that. It is arguing that Jeremiah

1110
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,039
is telling the church and predicting the church to have

1111
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:17,199
temporal power. Thus the next but that's not what that

1112
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,800
Jeremiah passage is about. And it's not saying that the

1113
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,840
pope can be a global world emperor. None of these

1114
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,239
passages say that. That's the false conclusion. Now let me

1115
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,639
I'll finish this this a little bit more. Therefore, if

1116
01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:32,920
the terrection, no, it's talking about the papacy having these power,

1117
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,760
that's where it goes next.

1118
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jeremiah, Jeremiah's talking to you hold today, I've placed

1119
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,159
you over nations in other kingdoms. That's that's in referrats

1120
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:41,519
in Jesus.

1121
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,679
Speaker 1: I know that. But the argument of this passage is

1122
01:04:44,679 --> 01:04:47,639
that therefore it is also in the papacy. That's the

1123
01:04:47,639 --> 01:04:52,039
whole argument of this and cyclical or dogmatic statement. Yeah,

1124
01:04:52,119 --> 01:04:55,039
because well yeah, okay, so that's that was my point.

1125
01:04:55,039 --> 01:04:57,440
Now let me finish. There's a little bit more. Therefore,

1126
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,440
if the terrestrial power errs, it will be judged by

1127
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,760
the spiritual power. If a minor spiritual power error, it

1128
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:07,199
will be judged by the superior spiritual power spiritual power.

1129
01:05:07,239 --> 01:05:10,679
If the highest power of all errors the pope, it

1130
01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:13,079
can only be judged by God and not by man.

1131
01:05:13,159 --> 01:05:16,280
According to the testimony of the Apostle, the spiritual man

1132
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,760
judges all things, although he himself is judged by no

1133
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,519
man First Corinthians two fifteen. This authority, however, though it

1134
01:05:22,519 --> 01:05:24,760
has been given to man and is exercised by man,

1135
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:26,880
is not human, but it is divine, and it is

1136
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,079
granted to Peter by a divine word reaffirmed to him

1137
01:05:31,159 --> 01:05:35,440
Peter and his successors, by whom Jesus said, whatever you

1138
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,639
bind on earth, that would beyond in heaven Matthew sixteen nineteen. Therefore,

1139
01:05:38,679 --> 01:05:41,920
whoever resists this power, which is ordained by God, resists

1140
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,840
the power and ordinance of God. Romans thirteen two. Even

1141
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,280
though Romans thirteen is about the temporal state power, the

1142
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,920
papacy is here saying that the state the papacy has

1143
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,880
that state power unless he invent, like Manichius two eternal beginnings,

1144
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,400
which is a false and heretical thing judged by us.

1145
01:06:00,079 --> 01:06:03,039
According to the testimony of Moses, it is not the beginnings,

1146
01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:04,679
but in the beginning that God created the heaven and

1147
01:06:04,719 --> 01:06:07,280
the earth Genesis one. Therefore we declare it, and we

1148
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,519
proclaim and we define that it is absolutely necessary for

1149
01:06:10,599 --> 01:06:14,039
salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman pontiff.

1150
01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:17,679
That means you have to accept this document's teaching of

1151
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:20,079
temporal supremacy to be saved.

1152
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but here's what I here's what I here's if

1153
01:06:26,079 --> 01:06:28,840
you if you read it slowly again, you can tell

1154
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,719
you can see that what he's what he's drawing on

1155
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,719
is the analogy between the soul and the body, the

1156
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,159
body and the soul, which is exactly what Uh well,

1157
01:06:37,159 --> 01:06:37,639
I don't.

1158
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,159
Speaker 1: Be able, but I don't grant any of that that

1159
01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:41,280
that has anything to do with the papacy being a

1160
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,840
world emperor, because the body soul analogy is used by

1161
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,400
other church fathers to talk about the relationship of church

1162
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,880
to state, not that the church is the state. And

1163
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,599
that's precisely where but.

1164
01:06:54,079 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry, go ahead, I interrupted you, sir.

1165
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,719
Speaker 1: That's precisely where this document and others in the medieval

1166
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,559
frame go Latin papal tradition are taking this line of argumentation.

1167
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:08,440
They're saying that because the church is above the state,

1168
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,719
it therefore is all saying, can be the state. That's

1169
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:12,239
the problem.

1170
01:07:13,239 --> 01:07:17,039
Speaker 2: Okay, So it would be like saying, Look, what you're

1171
01:07:17,079 --> 01:07:20,519
saying is that the intellect and the will govern the

1172
01:07:20,559 --> 01:07:25,000
lower passions. And what the Pope is saying is that

1173
01:07:25,039 --> 01:07:28,159
the intellect and the will are the passions. But the

1174
01:07:28,159 --> 01:07:30,840
intellect and the will can't be the passions because for

1175
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,679
the first several hundred years of Church history, we've always

1176
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:37,039
understood that the intellect and the will are distinct from

1177
01:07:37,039 --> 01:07:40,960
the passions, or are separate from the passions. And I

1178
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,559
think what the Pope is saying here is that the

1179
01:07:43,599 --> 01:07:47,920
spiritual power, the soul, the intellect, and the will rule

1180
01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:53,800
and govern the passions the lower the body is No.

1181
01:07:54,039 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: That is not all that's being said. He is saying that.

1182
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,480
Now listen, he is saying that because the church above

1183
01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:03,679
the state, it is also a state. That is what

1184
01:08:03,719 --> 01:08:07,239
he's saying. And that's why the papacy becomes a state

1185
01:08:07,639 --> 01:08:10,360
and eventually has a giant Vatican Bank and an intelligence

1186
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,719
network and spies and assassins and warrior monks and all

1187
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,840
the standing armies, all the things that states have.

1188
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think the church is the state,

1189
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,920
it's the laity, and I think this is no.

1190
01:08:22,119 --> 01:08:25,079
Speaker 1: The church is not the state in Chalcedon, and that's

1191
01:08:25,079 --> 01:08:28,399
why there's a distinction between clergy and you can't be

1192
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:30,479
in the state. So you're doing the very thing that

1193
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:32,680
is the thing that is the problem, saying that the

1194
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,960
church is a state. It is not a state.

1195
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 2: So you're saying that the Calciton Canon seven is saying

1196
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:46,279
that the church has no business in the state because

1197
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:48,520
of clergy, which are one.

1198
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: The church members cannot take on roles of the state,

1199
01:08:52,039 --> 01:08:54,840
and to call standing armies and to be the emperor

1200
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,039
of emperors is to be a state. The papacy becomes

1201
01:08:58,199 --> 01:09:00,600
the papal states.

1202
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 2: You said church members cannot be part of the state,

1203
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:08,279
and what I want to say is that no clergy.

1204
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:13,000
Speaker 1: Clergy cannot be the state. Church members absolutely should be

1205
01:09:13,079 --> 01:09:15,479
in the state. The state has a duty to God

1206
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,479
and to the Church. That does not make the church

1207
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:19,039
the state.

1208
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 2: Well, it doesn't make the church equated with the state,

1209
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,399
but it means that there are people that are part

1210
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:27,560
of the church, the lady.

1211
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: But these documents make the church the state. It makes

1212
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,359
the Vatican a geopolitical world state, which it is still.

1213
01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I don't think. Yeah, I'm just going

1214
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:46,560
to keep repeating what I'm saying, So I don't know

1215
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:53,000
how we gain ground here. I think that the body

1216
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:56,680
soul analogy that the popes are drawing on in Unam

1217
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,840
Sanctum and Immortal Day and other places is kind of

1218
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:02,439
what I would just rest.

1219
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,640
Speaker 1: But the body right, So the body being subject to

1220
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,439
the soul right, having those lower passions right, does not

1221
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:12,119
make the soul a body. That's the point I'm trying

1222
01:10:12,159 --> 01:10:15,920
to make. They're they're they're distinct. Yeah, they have a relationship,

1223
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,960
they have a synergized interconnected they should be working and

1224
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,159
speaking together. And certainly the spiritual is above the temporal.

1225
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:27,560
But none of that makes the spiritual the temporal. That's

1226
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,640
the point, and the papal model does that is what

1227
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:31,319
I'm trying to say.

1228
01:10:32,079 --> 01:10:34,199
Speaker 2: Well, I think that, Yeah, when you use words that

1229
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:39,279
I am the Emperor of emperors, you know it if

1230
01:10:39,319 --> 01:10:41,680
he it depends on what he means by that. He

1231
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:46,800
means that he is the he is the spiritual power,

1232
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,560
and in that sense he governs, he is the head

1233
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:53,920
over all of the lower passions the body itself. Then

1234
01:10:54,279 --> 01:10:57,199
you know that makes sense, and that's consistent if he

1235
01:10:57,319 --> 01:11:03,159
means that literalistically, that he himself health is now taking on,

1236
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:05,920
as you said, a secular office.

1237
01:11:06,319 --> 01:11:08,039
Speaker 1: I think that that's not even in question. I think

1238
01:11:08,239 --> 01:11:11,279
pretty much any scholar Uni eight Roman Catholic of this

1239
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:15,439
period will admit that that that's what happens, particularly post

1240
01:11:15,399 --> 01:11:19,520
Tic Tatus Pope into the you know, Renaissance, Porsia Morgia papacy,

1241
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:20,960
That's exactly what happens.

1242
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,520
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, this is this is challenging for me.

1243
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,239
So what I'll do is I'll have to go back

1244
01:11:26,319 --> 01:11:31,239
and and I'll message you for some more resources. I'll

1245
01:11:31,239 --> 01:11:34,600
look at these specific cases that you're talking about. Again,

1246
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:36,479
like I said in my beginning of the beginning of

1247
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:40,159
my video, what you're bringing up is not something Catholics

1248
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:42,720
should shy away from and say this is Jay trolling Catholics.

1249
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,520
This is something Catholics absolutely need to press into and

1250
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,840
not run from. So what I'll do is what I

1251
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:49,800
would what I would say is send me what you

1252
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:55,560
have specifically about the kind of claims the papacy is making. Right,

1253
01:11:56,239 --> 01:11:58,319
I'll look more into it, and then either I'll come

1254
01:11:58,319 --> 01:11:59,840
back on first stream or I might even do a

1255
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:02,600
video you know response.

1256
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that'd be great. And by the way, I've

1257
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:05,960
got your video links. So if people want to see

1258
01:12:06,439 --> 01:12:08,880
the initial response that Chris gave, it is in the

1259
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:10,760
show description. If you guys are interested, to be sure

1260
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,479
and follow him. His channel is linked as Christopher Plants

1261
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,399
in the show description there. Specifically, I would say that

1262
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:20,600
a couple of books that I think really treat this

1263
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:25,159
issue very well would be not the whole book, but

1264
01:12:25,199 --> 01:12:27,920
maybe the first one hundred pages of Christian East in

1265
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,439
the Rise of the Papacy by Mayandorphan Papadoccus, and then

1266
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:36,199
Papacy and Orthodox by Sushensky. Really just the first half

1267
01:12:36,239 --> 01:12:37,800
of this book, so you wouldn't have to read this

1268
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,359
entire thing, just the first I don't know, hundred and

1269
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:43,039
ninety pages would be good. So those are probably two

1270
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:46,039
of the best that I could think of right away.

1271
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:48,439
Like I said, there's others that would be good to

1272
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,600
de Vornick's Foshen Schism book is good.

1273
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,039
Speaker 2: I don't Okay, I'm going to get I'm going to

1274
01:12:53,079 --> 01:12:55,560
get these books per your recommendation.

1275
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 1: Sure, Okay, well, hey, I appreciate you coming on.

1276
01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:05,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you want evidence that from uh, like uh,

1277
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:09,239
doctrinal dogmatic evidence or are you looking for evidence uh

1278
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,199
from the church fathers in general? Like sort of are

1279
01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:15,720
you saying, Chris, give me one church father or are

1280
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:19,760
you saying give me something from a council or what not?

1281
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 1: Anything I mean, I'm I mean any if there's if

1282
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:24,720
there's any evidence that isn't and I'm not trying to

1283
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:28,640
be crude or rude that's not a forgery. Maybe there

1284
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:30,279
is something out there. I don't know, I'm not aware

1285
01:13:30,279 --> 01:13:33,520
of it, but I've not seen anything on this specific

1286
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:38,000
issue that that addresses this in the first eight centuries

1287
01:13:38,039 --> 01:13:44,159
about temporal supremacy. Now, maybe because the Papal States arises

1288
01:13:44,399 --> 01:13:48,600
within this timeframe, there may be popes who have said

1289
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:52,199
something like, you know, we do have this authority. But again,

1290
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:55,640
as far as I'm aware, when that does come up,

1291
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,119
it's usually referencing, you know, things that are forgeries. So

1292
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,399
if there's something that's a non forgery evidence, I would

1293
01:14:03,399 --> 01:14:04,279
be very interested in that.

1294
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, Yeah, I'll keep doing research and I'll see

1295
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:10,600
what I can find and and you know, reach out

1296
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:14,399
to you. But I thinks thanks for challenging challenging me

1297
01:14:14,439 --> 01:14:17,760
on this and especially bringing up these important documents that

1298
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,800
I think that Catholics need to take seriously.

1299
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:22,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, and we didn't get into a lot of

1300
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,279
the you know, the specifics of like Dignitatis humani. But

1301
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:29,000
to be a little more precise on that topic, which

1302
01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:31,000
you did allude to many of those documents, I would

1303
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:36,880
argue that, you know, Syllabus of Errors mortall Day, a

1304
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:41,520
lot of those Vatican one era documents that are condemning liberalism.

1305
01:14:42,079 --> 01:14:44,880
I think even Paceendi touches on this a little bit.

1306
01:14:45,199 --> 01:14:50,399
I think those also spill over into this question of uh,

1307
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:53,680
you know, Vatican two Dignititadas Humane and even the Decree

1308
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,039
on Religious on a Humanism and other things. I think

1309
01:14:57,039 --> 01:15:01,199
they go really far in the other direction of religious

1310
01:15:01,199 --> 01:15:04,079
liberty that in my view, does contradict the things that

1311
01:15:04,119 --> 01:15:06,520
are said in those papal documents around the time of

1312
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,640
Vatican One. Now maybe you would disagree, but maybe next

1313
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,319
time we can get into more of the Vatican two

1314
01:15:11,359 --> 01:15:12,760
type stuff. If you want to come back.

1315
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:16,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally. I've really enjoyed this and thanks so

1316
01:15:16,159 --> 01:15:17,960
much for having me on, and I would love to

1317
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:19,800
come back. I mean, you've been such a great host

1318
01:15:20,199 --> 01:15:23,520
and like I said, I love that you challenge us

1319
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:27,199
on this, and I need to look more into the

1320
01:15:27,239 --> 01:15:29,560
stuff that you were saying, and I'll try to get

1321
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:31,279
back to you. I think it's important enough to spend

1322
01:15:31,359 --> 01:15:33,800
time looking into it, so I'll get those two books

1323
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:36,239
and then i'll message you some more stuff and you

1324
01:15:36,279 --> 01:15:37,319
can yeah, you know,