Speaker 1: Hey, folks, Objectively Dan here and a decad of illustrated
Speaker 1: cards can't tell you your future, at least in my opinion,
Speaker 1: but they can tell you a lot about how badly
Speaker 1: we want answers. See. I think tarot cards work just
Speaker 1: based on vague language or wishful thinking or somebody who's
Speaker 1: going to be reading you, not the cards, right, And
Speaker 1: I think we've shuffled through the cards and have come
Speaker 1: up empty handed. So call in and give us a
Speaker 1: prediction that wasn't just a lucky guess, or better yet,
Speaker 1: give us a live reading or prove that it's real,
Speaker 1: because the show is starting right now. Hello, folks, welcome
Speaker 1: back to another episode of Truth Wanted. I am your host,
Speaker 1: Objectively Dan. This is the live calling show that happens
Speaker 1: every single week Sundays at two forty five pm Stentral
Speaker 1: where we talk to people about what they believe and
Speaker 1: why they believe it. If you'd like to call us,
Speaker 1: do that now the numbers five one two nine nine
Speaker 1: four two, or you can call through your computer and
Speaker 1: ACA don show slash call it. If you've never seen
Speaker 1: this before, Truth Wanted is a product of the atheist
Speaker 1: community of Austin, a five o'h one c three nonprofit
Speaker 1: organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,
Speaker 1: and the separation of religion and government. And folks, we
Speaker 1: are try streaming today, so big shout out to our
Speaker 1: viewers on TikTok and YouTube mobile. I know we've been
Speaker 1: having a little bit of issues with our TikTok today,
Speaker 1: so if you'd like to try to talk to us,
Speaker 1: you can request to join and we'll bring you up
Speaker 1: on stage. Please make sure you are over the age
Speaker 1: of eighteen before doing so. But in case that's not
Speaker 1: working for you, you can always try to call through
Speaker 1: our number that we mentioned earlier and is at the
Speaker 1: bottom of the screen and we'll we'll get you into
Speaker 1: the show that way. But folks, every single week on
Speaker 1: Truth Wanted, we always try to have a special guest.
Speaker 1: This week is no different. I have the awesome Jay
Speaker 1: joining me today. Jay, Welcome to Truth Wanted. How's it
Speaker 1: going great?
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to see what happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, Me too. We're starting a little bit
Speaker 1: late today, folks, so sorry, but you know lines are open,
Speaker 1: so we're ready to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Guys.
Speaker 1: I know there's somebody that already wants to talk to
Speaker 1: us about some tarot cards stuff. But it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be about tarot cards. It can be about God,
Speaker 1: it can be about big funny me about aliens. Whatever
Speaker 1: happens on truth Wanted stays on truth Wanted. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying like this. You know, we do things
Speaker 1: a little bit differently around here, but Jay, welcome to
Speaker 1: truth Wanted. You are what did you describe yourself as zero?
Speaker 1: You said you are a fresh face.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a fresh face, fresh face in this community.
Speaker 2: As far as this side of content creating, I have
Speaker 2: done content creating before, but it was like poker and
Speaker 2: things like that and gaming.
Speaker 1: Well, hey wait poker. Now you're gonna show us some
Speaker 1: tricks on here because we're talking about tarot cards. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's some sort of connection there.
Speaker 2: I was a pretty decent player, and I will say this,
Speaker 2: I got better when I stopped being super Still is okay?
Speaker 1: Interesting? That makes sense? You play like online stuff? You
Speaker 1: were doing content there?
Speaker 2: Yes, I used to stream doing live cash games online
Speaker 2: and I also played live as well.
Speaker 1: That's dope. Can you still do? Wait? This is totally
Speaker 1: not on topic for this show at all. But I
Speaker 1: am just curious now because like all these laws about
Speaker 1: like a gambling state to state, does that make that
Speaker 1: more problematic for that kind of content. I'm just curious
Speaker 1: if you know about any of that, because.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where I'm in my new career now.
Speaker 1: Okay, so okay, so now because you can't do it,
Speaker 1: oh okay, wow, so now you're like, okay, we got
Speaker 1: to pivot to atheism. That's in order to make that revenue.
Speaker 1: It's a good creed. I see how it is. But no, Jay,
Speaker 1: you you used to be a Christian and you are
Speaker 1: no longer a Christian, and I want to talk about
Speaker 1: your story a little bit. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, born and raised in the South Texas. Mother father Christians.
Speaker 2: Father maybe a little less of the showing it, but
Speaker 2: mother definitely was.
Speaker 1: Was that.
Speaker 2: Luckily for me, uh, seeing people that had it worse.
Speaker 2: I was only forced to go to church until age
Speaker 2: about nine. So after that my mother said, hey, if
Speaker 2: you don't want to go, you don't have to go.
Speaker 1: But okay, definitely what part of Texas if you don't
Speaker 1: mind me as Houston?
Speaker 3: Houston?
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're Houston guys, So you know I'm from Waco,
Speaker 1: so you know there's there's that uh, you know that
Speaker 1: makes sense. You know, Houston, Houston and tech everywhere in Texas.
Speaker 1: There is a similarity in Christian culture. I would say
Speaker 1: the further you get from the city, the worse it gets,
Speaker 1: I would say, but it depends depends on where you're at, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, you're one hundred percent right.
Speaker 2: Uh my my wife is from one of those towns
Speaker 2: you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so you're Christian
Speaker 1: for for you know, that portion of the life. And
Speaker 1: then we were talking a little bit before the show
Speaker 1: and you were kind of saying, like you describe your
Speaker 1: change in percentages. You're like, at this point in the life,
Speaker 1: I was eighty percent. Then I was about sixty percent.
Speaker 1: So you know, how do you leave that? Because you know,
Speaker 1: for most people, they stay the same most of their lives,
Speaker 1: right or it's the changes they do have is within
Speaker 1: their religious faith. It's not necessarily out of the religious faith.
Speaker 1: So what made that change for you?
Speaker 2: Just the fact of being forced because I played basketball
Speaker 2: and I traveled a lot since I was about ten,
Speaker 2: so not having to be at home, I was able
Speaker 2: to be around other people that had beliefs and Mormonism
Speaker 2: are in other just all other religions. I was able
Speaker 2: to play basketball and travel the country with those kind
Speaker 2: of people. So that is like, say, I'm one hundred
Speaker 2: percent when I'm ten, and then i go travel with
Speaker 2: a roommate that might be a Muslim, and now that
Speaker 2: that one hundred percent tonight eight because.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that I never heard.
Speaker 1: Before, right, So yeah, I had a similar experience in
Speaker 1: that regard, you know, in college. For me, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you meet other people from other backgrounds and turns out
Speaker 1: not everybody actually views the world the same way you do.
Speaker 1: And it's like, huh, how does that work? You know,
Speaker 1: how do you get from one thing to another? It's
Speaker 1: almost as if everybody has different ideas and maybe your
Speaker 1: ideas aren't all true. Something to think about, right, Funny
Speaker 1: how that works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're just never you don't know that and until
Speaker 2: you're you go around other people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. I like that your story in corporate
Speaker 1: like you were traveling for basketball, which is awesome because
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, that's that's the way to do it.
Speaker 1: I've I've heard about people, you know, meeting other people
Speaker 1: and maybe traveling. You're maybe the first story I've heard
Speaker 1: where Yeah, it's because basketball. You can you can distribute
Speaker 1: to a sport.
Speaker 3: That Yeah, I would. I would have been at home
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for basketball.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's crazy, that's awesome. You'd be you'd be
Speaker 1: going to church, uh this Sunday right now?
Speaker 3: Well even even during that, let's to be fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a devout Christian, kind of apologetic person.
Speaker 2: I would say I did the same thing that I'm
Speaker 2: doing now, I just did it the other way. So
Speaker 2: I was the weird basketball player that used to preach
Speaker 2: to my teammates and tell them to be saved and
Speaker 2: show them how to be saved.
Speaker 3: And that's how a lot of these conversations stated for me.
Speaker 1: They've had a couple of those guys in the NBA.
Speaker 1: I think, you know that's Hey, that's kind of a problem. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of the guy that got in
Speaker 1: trouble for that recently. I can't remember his name.
Speaker 3: But I don't follow it as much as I used to.
Speaker 1: I'm not. Yeah, that makes sense, but you know I
Speaker 1: could see how Yeah, of course, right, broadening your horizons,
Speaker 1: you're meeting other people you're maybe not as into it anymore,
Speaker 1: but you you had invested into a relationship at that
Speaker 1: point as well. Right, you said you were married and
Speaker 1: you had a family at that point, So what was
Speaker 1: that situation like for you?
Speaker 2: So that would be my ex wife now, but uh,
Speaker 2: and we're real good friends. But she we were both
Speaker 2: definitely devout Christians at that time, had our first son
Speaker 2: and planned to raise him in a Christian environment as well. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, things happened after that, but yeah, we we
Speaker 2: thought we were going to raise them the same as
Speaker 2: we were raised and turns out different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, so, uh there's some people that made
Speaker 1: that and you know, I you know, you need to
Speaker 1: tell you about your whole family history there, right. But
Speaker 1: was was was faith a part of the reason why
Speaker 1: your relationship was it working? Or was that just like
Speaker 1: kind of one of some other things?
Speaker 3: Good question. I think it was more of why we
Speaker 3: stayed together. Uh we weren't. We weren't together that long.
Speaker 2: But we probably just shouldn't even have stayed together in
Speaker 2: the first place.
Speaker 3: Uh. But and and I'm okay with saying that now.
Speaker 2: Because we're we're really cool, sure, but just the process
Speaker 2: are sorry the environ meant we were brought up in
Speaker 2: was you stay together. So were we found out she
Speaker 2: was pregnant and you're together, you know, and that's that's
Speaker 2: kind of how that relationship started.
Speaker 1: Well that's one reason why I asked, because I definitely
Speaker 1: grew up in a Christian environment where you know, divorce
Speaker 1: is a last resort thing and it's it's always used
Speaker 1: as a tragedy, whereas now I view it as a
Speaker 1: good thing for the most part, right, because you want
Speaker 1: you're you're leaving something that you shouldn't be a part of. Right,
Speaker 1: But you know, it's it's a tragedy, it's something you
Speaker 1: should avoid, it's something you should never do, and that
Speaker 1: you need to stick with somebody for life. So you know, uh,
Speaker 1: it used to for me divorce was always like oh
Speaker 1: my god, it's it's something you said behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's just because I'm the
Speaker 1: person I am now or if there is a change
Speaker 1: in the culture or maybe both. But now I hear like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you get divorce. It's like, yeah, that's like that's most
Speaker 1: of my friend's parents you know at this point, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: And I have the same same exact a story. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of us have this story if you
Speaker 2: grew up in that. Yeah, and it's just the the
Speaker 2: outcome of the traditions and what you're taught.
Speaker 3: And and like I.
Speaker 2: Said, I take pride in the fact that we are
Speaker 2: really good friends now and we would not have been
Speaker 2: good if we just forced each other to stay with
Speaker 2: each other. And I don't know, I think that's that's something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's always we always say there's proof one way, but
Speaker 2: what about the proof the other way?
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's something you uh, you describe yourself as
Speaker 1: an apologist earlier, which is kind of curious and now yeah,
Speaker 1: and then and then now you're you know, so it's
Speaker 1: one thing to kind of deconstruct these ideas and then
Speaker 1: say you're an atheist now and move on with your life.
Speaker 1: And it's another thing to start making content about it,
Speaker 1: like on the internet. So, like, what was the reason
Speaker 1: for you that you're like I need to talk about this,
Speaker 1: you know from a content creation perspective.
Speaker 2: Sure, I would say it's the same motivation that I
Speaker 2: had as far as when I was preaching Jesus. I
Speaker 2: just want to show people and give them reasons why
Speaker 2: to be kind to each other. And all I had
Speaker 2: to fall back on during that time was Jesus.
Speaker 3: So that's what I preached to people.
Speaker 2: And then during those preachings, I was confronted by other religions,
Speaker 2: so I had to come with answers, and it made
Speaker 2: me go search deeper for answers and I found them,
Speaker 2: and it led me another way after I found them.
Speaker 1: Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, short and sweet and simple.
Speaker 1: I like it, right, very simple? Does that be super complicated?
Speaker 1: I feel like I like how simple that way you
Speaker 1: just put it is because in my mind sometimes I
Speaker 1: go back on my story and I'm like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I have this moment, and then I had this moment
Speaker 1: and then I had this reason. But like for the
Speaker 1: truth is for a lot of us that kind of
Speaker 1: deconstruct it can sometimes just be like one or two
Speaker 1: or three reasons that kind of make the whole thing
Speaker 1: sort of fall apart in a way, right, And when
Speaker 1: you're talking about other people's experiences, I think for me
Speaker 1: it was something similar. It's like, Okay, if a person
Speaker 1: can be a Muslim and can grow up and can
Speaker 1: be devout in this faith, why why does that happen?
Speaker 1: Why does that incurve. That's kind of a weird idea
Speaker 1: if you think about it from a Christian perspective, from
Speaker 1: God that's supposedly wanting to affect everybody's lives in the world.
Speaker 1: Why do we have Aborigines that never heard of Jesus
Speaker 1: until somebody told them, right? Why do we have groups
Speaker 1: of people that are very devout and are very to
Speaker 1: their faith and from their perspective, is one hundred percent true,
Speaker 1: But it would be the exact opposite of what my
Speaker 1: religion would say. You know, again talking about Muslims in particular,
Speaker 1: but you know that makes up over a billion people
Speaker 1: in the world. That's not a small amount. We're not
Speaker 1: talking about some guy off the street. We're talking about
Speaker 1: a history and a culture of people. And I think
Speaker 1: the actual existence of multiple religions kind of kind of
Speaker 1: deconstructs Christianity in of itself, which is it's kind of fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And what got me is that same thing,
Speaker 2: like I said, being forced at a very young age,
Speaker 2: and I was good enough in basketball to be forced
Speaker 2: to go play with older men. So I got to
Speaker 2: see it at twelve years old talking to like sixteen
Speaker 2: and seventeen year olds really challenging me on my beliefs,
Speaker 2: so they were like, you're you know. They would call
Speaker 2: me names and tell me how stupid I was for
Speaker 2: believing in these things, and it made me go search
Speaker 2: for it. And seeing that somebody believed something just as
Speaker 2: devout as I did. It was an eye opener for
Speaker 2: me because how can I say they're wrong?
Speaker 1: So you're saying bullying helped you, so in order to
Speaker 1: convert people, we need to start bullying. Though I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say that.
Speaker 2: If you watch my content, people say I'm a little
Speaker 2: too nice, but it is because I just know what
Speaker 2: it was like to really believe this stuff and really
Speaker 2: think that it was true and wonder why the other
Speaker 2: person couldn't see it.
Speaker 1: Well, you're you're a good Southern boy, Jay, there you go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right right.
Speaker 1: I think that too. I think I've had, you know,
Speaker 1: if I looked at my online experience and the comments
Speaker 1: that I've gotten the most, I think I've also probably
Speaker 1: gotten that response to of like you're you're too nice
Speaker 1: to people, which I feel like and recently hasn't been
Speaker 1: in this fit, I feel like I'm not as nice
Speaker 1: like this. If you had to look at last year
Speaker 1: versus all my other years, I'm probably been the meanest,
Speaker 1: but I maybe it's because I'm more jaded, but I
Speaker 1: I do kind of share that same perspective where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like catching flies with honey rather than
Speaker 1: anything else, Right, It's like you can show that, you know.
Speaker 1: My idea of being atheist was you're an old, bitter,
Speaker 1: jaded person, right, And I don't want that to be
Speaker 1: the case. I think that you can be a good person.
Speaker 1: I think that you can be a very good person
Speaker 1: actually without that, and that you can be normal, and
Speaker 1: that you can talk to people about these ideas without
Speaker 1: getting too crazy about it and just showing that off
Speaker 1: that I exist. I think knowing that that's kind of
Speaker 1: a person that's out there would have changed the way
Speaker 1: I've thought of things a long time ago. So I
Speaker 1: don't know that's just my perspective on it, but no.
Speaker 3: It's ae hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I go back into my life all the time, and
Speaker 2: I realized this may be, like a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 2: that one of my best friends was aist atheist, and
Speaker 2: I had no clue when I When I go back
Speaker 2: and think about his parents and everything, yeah. Really, but
Speaker 2: when you're in it, you think everybody's religious. I really did.
Speaker 1: It's for everyone. Was You're so right, You're so right.
Speaker 1: You really do think that everybody thinks the same way
Speaker 1: you do, which is not correct. But yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: Today's topic, Jay, we we opened this talking about tarot cards,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know again we don't have to talk
Speaker 1: to callers about tarot cards, but I am curious. Did
Speaker 1: you have any experience with that kind of stuff, spiritualism,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, or is that kind of always
Speaker 1: a taboo sort of forbidden thing for you.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm one of the Christians when I was a
Speaker 2: Christian where I would try everything. So I was the
Speaker 2: guy that was like, hey, if this is true, I
Speaker 2: want to know. So I definitely have tried anything as
Speaker 2: far as horoscopes. I haven't necessarily worked with tarot cards
Speaker 2: because I don't know how to do that, okay, but
Speaker 2: I've had family members that still believe in these kind
Speaker 2: of things and you can predict your future and see
Speaker 2: you if you're on the right path. So I'm the
Speaker 2: type of guy like, hey, my wife's creole, so they
Speaker 2: are kind of superstitious in a way.
Speaker 3: So it's just like, hey, if you can prove it,
Speaker 3: show me sure.
Speaker 2: I've never been scared of any of this, so I'm
Speaker 2: excited if somebody comes in here and does.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like.
Speaker 1: To know if we can know more things about those
Speaker 1: kinds of readings. It's funny that the topic is is
Speaker 1: that this morning, because this week I actually read a
Speaker 1: really interesting post on Reddit about somebody asking about tarot
Speaker 1: cards and they were kind of like, well, what's the
Speaker 1: deal with tarot cards or or any of you guys
Speaker 1: out there practicing this stuff and don't believe it? Which
Speaker 1: I thought was an interesting question, And the top comment
Speaker 1: was somebody saying like, yeah, I have a friend who
Speaker 1: who uses it as a kind of therapy, and they
Speaker 1: kind of describe it like this. They're like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're just kind of having a conversation with somebody and
Speaker 1: you're kind of presenting these ideas, and you're letting people
Speaker 1: kind to their own conclusions about these ideas. Like if
Speaker 1: you show somebody the death card and that brings up
Speaker 1: some ideas for them, you're kind of like letting them
Speaker 1: get a chance to talk about something that maybe is
Speaker 1: on their mind or maybe is being reflected in the cards.
Speaker 1: And you're not actually telling the future. You're not telling
Speaker 1: them anything that you know is super natural, and it's
Speaker 1: supernatural in a sense, right, It's more just like, here's
Speaker 1: a way to kind of bring up ideas that you
Speaker 1: may subconsciously be thinking about in sort of a healthy,
Speaker 1: more productive environment. I thought that was really fascinating because
Speaker 1: I hadn't really considered that perspective too much before. Like
Speaker 1: I knew that people that did something similar where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of a topic of conversation, but I
Speaker 1: never thought about taro cards as like a therapy tool,
Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting. Have you heard about this idea?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can get it. And to me, it's the
Speaker 2: same thing as sports in a way where it's just like,
Speaker 2: as human beings, we're such weird animals that we need
Speaker 2: these kind of things to just pacify us. So, you know,
Speaker 2: if you need that feeling of not being afraid of
Speaker 2: the future, you'll find things like tarot cards, or you'll
Speaker 2: look into astrology and you'll look at something that can
Speaker 2: tell you you'll be okay tomorrow. And I think that's
Speaker 2: just part of our processes that we do. For me
Speaker 2: as an athlete, it was more of, I would say,
Speaker 2: being afraid of being beaten. So it's like I'm gonna
Speaker 2: beat you first, and I'm gonna practice to beat you first.
Speaker 2: So all of these things I think are just ways
Speaker 2: of pacifying that fear that.
Speaker 3: We have of the unknown.
Speaker 1: Oooh yeah, oh that's interesting, sort of a coping almost right.
Speaker 1: So like your master over sports gives you, it's sort
Speaker 1: of like, well, I can master this, so I don't
Speaker 1: have to fear it. I can control it. That's kind
Speaker 1: of what you're saying there, And so you think tarot
Speaker 1: cards are kind of the same way, where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: if we can we can sort of master this these ideas,
Speaker 1: then we don't have to be afraid of not being
Speaker 1: able to control what's happening there. Exactly right, You're right on,
Speaker 1: spot on, that's what I think. Well, that's the case
Speaker 1: I don't like, Like, I don't know. The only times
Speaker 1: I really have big problems with this stuff is again
Speaker 1: it's like when people claim they can do things that
Speaker 1: they can't really do.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like the future stuff, you know, it's the oh,
Speaker 1: I can talk to people who are who are living anymore,
Speaker 1: or get some sort of insight from beyond, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm totally cool with somebody who wants to
Speaker 1: say I'm using this as sort of like a tool
Speaker 1: for self reflection. But whenever, like the other stuff gets involved,
Speaker 1: and then like money gets involved, I just I have
Speaker 1: to sort of squip my eyes a little bit because
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff is a billion dollar industry. You know,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of people that make money on this
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And and definitely do go that far
Speaker 1: and say, yes, I can predict your future. I can
Speaker 1: do these things for you, and I can give you
Speaker 1: I can make you a better husband, I can make
Speaker 1: you better wife, I can make you a better person
Speaker 1: in your career. And at what point do you have
Speaker 1: to say we shouldn't we shouldn't be cool with this, right,
Speaker 1: like we would say something about it. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know where that line is, but it there
Speaker 1: there there. It does give me pause, right, does give
Speaker 1: me pause.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things I like to
Speaker 2: use the Abraham Lincoln quote.
Speaker 3: If this isn't bad or evil, nothing is kind.
Speaker 2: You kind of just know when something is not right,
Speaker 2: and if you wouldn't want it done to.
Speaker 3: Your most likely people don't want to be tricked.
Speaker 2: I then that's why my channel I promote the honesty
Speaker 2: portion of Everything's just like, I don't really care what
Speaker 2: you believe, but let's be honest about it. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: that way we can talk about it in the realist
Speaker 2: way that we can.
Speaker 3: So somebody's doing.
Speaker 2: Tarot cards, just tell people that this isn't real, like
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or just be honest if you're honest about what
Speaker 1: the tool is, like, it's a tool for self reflection.
Speaker 1: I genuinely have no problem with that. You know, how
Speaker 1: could I? Who cares life short? But yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know the money and the everything else that gets involved,
Speaker 1: that's when it gets shady. But hey, speaking of being
Speaker 1: honest with people, you want to get honest with some
Speaker 1: people right now and talk to some callers.
Speaker 3: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's do it. So, first person, we're to talk
Speaker 1: to h We're talking to a Ben who's calling in
Speaker 1: from Canada. Ben was calling before the show and was
Speaker 1: patiently waiting while we were having our technical difficulties. Thank
Speaker 1: you Ben for that. You're live untruth wanted what's going on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm pretty good. So the reason I wanted to
Speaker 4: talk to you guys, because I had kind of like
Speaker 4: an idea about how maybe tearot cards works in the
Speaker 4: world relating to like the way we probably process emotions
Speaker 4: and scientific knowledge. So I was kind of thinking that, well,
Speaker 4: you know, emotions could actually precede the thoughts that we
Speaker 4: have around scientific scientific knowledge, and in a way, we
Speaker 4: could view our thoughts and ideas as illusions to our emotions,
Speaker 4: because like, what we could potentially be doing is just
Speaker 4: trying to figure out what emotions are beneficial and what
Speaker 4: are dement detrimental, and figuring out what thoughts would capitalize
Speaker 4: on the plausative emotions and what thoughts would capitalize on
Speaker 4: the negative emotions, and then try to operate in the
Speaker 4: world in a way to intigate anything that might contradict
Speaker 4: those So that's why I believe we could be creating
Speaker 4: these illusions in our minds around thoughts and scientific ideas,
Speaker 4: and that those things actually don't exist, that what we
Speaker 4: actually exist is just our emotions and how we are
Speaker 4: just trying to go towards the positive ones and stay
Speaker 4: away from the negative ones.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're talking about some complicated ideas here. I want
Speaker 1: to try to parse this out for a second, So
Speaker 1: from what I'm understanding, it sounds like you're saying these
Speaker 1: tarot cards gives us insight into our emotions, and our
Speaker 1: emotions affect other things in our lives, including and you
Speaker 1: mentioned scientific knowledge and our thoughts you're talking about, and
Speaker 1: so if we have a better understanding of our emotions,
Speaker 1: we may have a better understanding of our thoughts and
Speaker 1: scientific knowledge. Is that Is that a good summary?
Speaker 4: That's a good way to view it, because okay, things that.
Speaker 1: We yeah, but oh well, so I appreciate that, because
Speaker 1: this is a very weird idea to me. I'm very
Speaker 1: curious about this. How do we, like, how does our
Speaker 1: emotions link with like scientific knowledge, for example, what's the
Speaker 1: connection there? Because I don't really see a connection to that.
Speaker 4: So I would I would. I would say that the
Speaker 4: the emotion that we we put onto those into the
Speaker 4: scientific realm is the emotion of oh this makes sense.
Speaker 4: That's what we're actually getting from the scientific endeavor, that
Speaker 4: emotion that oh, yeah, this makes sense, but it's not
Speaker 4: real like those numbers that like one plus one equals two,
Speaker 4: that's not actually real. What's real is the emotion that says,
Speaker 4: oh this is this makes sense? Because you could look
Speaker 4: at a tarot card and then you could say you
Speaker 4: could potentially look and say that this also makes sense.
Speaker 4: Like your dreaming, is.
Speaker 3: That an emotion making senses and emotion to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious about.
Speaker 4: That too, because when I dream sometimes really dumb things,
Speaker 4: I get the same emotion as if I'm living in
Speaker 4: this domain and I see one plus one as two.
Speaker 4: But in my dream, I will experience something really dumb,
Speaker 4: but I will get that emotion of this makes sense
Speaker 4: just as much as one plus one equals two.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm curious about your thesis here, because your thesis
Speaker 1: is saying like scientific knowledge is ultimately like its purpose
Speaker 1: is for like emotional sort of fulfillment, which I think
Speaker 1: that's a week That's a very interesting idea because I
Speaker 1: think we get scientific knowledge for other things other than
Speaker 1: like emotional satisfaction, right, Like we get science knowledge not
Speaker 1: just for understanding, but also so that we can build things,
Speaker 1: so that we can help people. I mean, understanding is
Speaker 1: a great part of that, but like, I think it's
Speaker 1: more than just understanding. I think it's it's so that
Speaker 1: we can do I don't know, scientific knowledge has a
Speaker 1: lot of utility.
Speaker 4: That's also that's also why I say it could be
Speaker 4: an illusion. So that's like a brainwashing illusion, so that
Speaker 4: we brainwash ourselves into thinking that's the only thing that's important,
Speaker 4: that we should only think that scientific things are important,
Speaker 4: so that we can be manipulated through that.
Speaker 1: I don't know, we're kind of good. We're kind of
Speaker 1: going into some weird territory here. I don't know anybody
Speaker 1: that's saying scientific knowledge is the only thing. I mean, Okay, actually,
Speaker 1: let me let me back up. There is a movement
Speaker 1: of scientism, right, and there is this idea that scientific
Speaker 1: knowledge is sort of the most ultimate knowledge, right. And
Speaker 1: these are the kinds of people that say, you know, philosophy,
Speaker 1: other kinds of studies, you know, all that's bunk. If
Speaker 1: it's not material, if it's not something we can know
Speaker 1: out in the world, then it's not real. Right. So
Speaker 1: that is a school of thought. But I would say
Speaker 1: that's not a common or popular school of thought. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know anybody that's saying, yeah, we need
Speaker 1: to only look at scientific knowledge so that we can
Speaker 1: I don't know, control people or whatever. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: You're kind of losing me a little bit. Ben, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is weird.
Speaker 4: I absolutely agree. That's why it's just something a It's
Speaker 4: something like a theoretical like idea, you know, like something
Speaker 4: that like like like a weird idea that I got
Speaker 4: recently that I was like exploring. But I was thinking, yeah,
Speaker 4: that could because then you could actually argue, well, maybe
Speaker 4: magic exists, that we're living in this magical world. Like
Speaker 4: how a magician is like actually showing you magic, but
Speaker 4: then afterwards you're trying to understand the magic that happened.
Speaker 4: But because your mind is so close into thinking that
Speaker 4: magic doesn't exist, he has to create, yate the magic
Speaker 4: to that you would understand. That is the magic of
Speaker 4: like correlation one plus one equals two.
Speaker 3: And so ask you what you mean by magic?
Speaker 1: What do you mean by magic?
Speaker 4: Like, yeah, magic like things that are actually bending the
Speaker 4: laws of the universe that are not what we can
Speaker 4: see as real.
Speaker 2: So if a magician does something in its magic and
Speaker 2: we we know that it's not real, is that still magic?
Speaker 4: If we know it's not real, then it's not magic.
Speaker 4: But that's because our brain is wired to think that
Speaker 4: it is not real in the first place.
Speaker 2: But isn't that like I'm trying to tie into your
Speaker 2: emotions that you you said something about emotions, So I'm
Speaker 2: trying to show you the emotion that comes out of magic,
Speaker 2: which is that sense of like awe and wonder. Right, So,
Speaker 2: even if we know the magician is faking some thing,
Speaker 2: there's this sense of awe and wonder, and that's the
Speaker 2: emotion that you're talking about, right, yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like for example, the first time you experienced magic,
Speaker 4: you would think, oh, how did they do that? Magic
Speaker 4: could be real? And then yeah, the magician then turns
Speaker 4: towards you to tell you that, oh, this was done
Speaker 4: in this way. Maybe they're trying to gate keep magic
Speaker 4: away from the public and then telling everyone, look, this
Speaker 4: is magic. Is actually this like this one plus one
Speaker 4: equals too, so they create a way of making magic
Speaker 4: look like it's fake.
Speaker 2: I thought I thought you were you're with me for
Speaker 2: a second, because you were just talking like both of me,
Speaker 2: and you would talk where you said the magician would
Speaker 2: show you and then tell you that it wasn't magic.
Speaker 2: And then you came up and added something to me
Speaker 2: where you said, now it's a conspiracy.
Speaker 3: Why why why now is a conspiracy?
Speaker 4: Well, I was just using it as an example to
Speaker 4: say that, Well, like our idea of magic is when
Speaker 4: we first see magic, like a magician show us magic
Speaker 4: is like potentially real, But then the world could be
Speaker 4: you know, trying to like show us something that we
Speaker 4: would understand that is not magic.
Speaker 2: So when you're when you're when you're like a child,
Speaker 2: and you see an adult do something that you can't do,
Speaker 2: it seems pretty awesome, right, Yeah, So, uh do you
Speaker 2: think there's a conspiracy from adults like they want to
Speaker 2: teach their kids things?
Speaker 3: Right, So it's just why are we bringing up the
Speaker 3: conspiracy thing?
Speaker 1: To me?
Speaker 2: I think we can look at this thing and in
Speaker 2: a like a logical state, like you brought up that
Speaker 2: somebody can do magic and they can trick you, and
Speaker 2: if they tell you it's correct, what's they just told
Speaker 2: you that? I'm sorry, if they tell you that it
Speaker 2: was a magic trick, it doesn't make it not magic.
Speaker 2: That's just the feeling that you're talking about, Like, it's
Speaker 2: this feeling you're talking about. So I'm with you on there.
Speaker 2: These things give us feelings and it makes things feel
Speaker 2: like what they aren't necessarily are, and it doesn't take
Speaker 2: away from that. To me, Like if I see a
Speaker 2: magician do something that I can't explain the same feeling
Speaker 2: is amazing to me.
Speaker 3: I just don't have to believe that he literally is
Speaker 3: a wizard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we know, we know that it's a conspiracy. It's
Speaker 4: not a conspiracy when a magician does it, because you know,
Speaker 4: we've lived through that. But when we first experienced it,
Speaker 4: we got that sense that it could be real. And
Speaker 4: then I'm just correlating that to well, imagine that in
Speaker 4: the real world, that what we believe as like one
Speaker 4: plus one ecles two is an illusion to what is
Speaker 4: really really going on behind the scenes, where we're just
Speaker 4: communicating through emotions and we're not actually, yeah, well we
Speaker 4: could be communicating just through emotions, not just through scientificure.
Speaker 1: You're always kind of saying that the scientific knowledge is
Speaker 1: sort of a false sort of nosis, that it's it's
Speaker 1: it's a fault.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's something either lying going on.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, so you might Jay, you might be like
Speaker 1: totally lost here. I'm actually kind of I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in what Ben is saying here because like, on the
Speaker 1: one hand, I'm like with him, and then he completely
Speaker 1: jumps to this other thing here, and I'm reminded by
Speaker 1: there's this Christian philosopher I used to really like ben
Speaker 1: Maybe you've heard of him. His name is Peter Rollins.
Speaker 1: When I was a Christian, he was fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: He's this Irish Christian philosopher. He has this idea. He
Speaker 1: uses this metaphor of a magician kind of and you know,
Speaker 1: I think that's where the connection comes in. And this
Speaker 1: metaphor is like this. You know, you're at a show
Speaker 1: and a magician sort of has he's in the middle
Speaker 1: of doing a trick, and you know that this is
Speaker 1: all a trick. You know that you're there for the
Speaker 1: show and you're there for the entertainment, but there is
Speaker 1: a moment where you don't know what's going on and
Speaker 1: and and it looks like magic. And the best explanation
Speaker 1: for in that moment in that time, even though it's
Speaker 1: all sort of an illusion, is magic there. And there
Speaker 1: is something about sort of the human experience that's kind
Speaker 1: of I guess drawn to that in a way. And
Speaker 1: I'm seeing that these connections here. You're kind of drawing
Speaker 1: this idea that we're using science as sort of an explanation,
Speaker 1: but maybe we're actually missing something that could be greater
Speaker 1: in the same way that if you're in a magic show,
Speaker 1: you're using magic as the explanation when it could be
Speaker 1: something even greater. So you're so you're sort of your
Speaker 1: concern is that maybe scientific explanation isn't the best or
Speaker 1: most total explanation we can have for things. Rather it
Speaker 1: might be something that's more emotionally fulfilling. Is that kind
Speaker 1: of what you're going getting at here? Or am I
Speaker 1: off base? You tell me.
Speaker 4: Emotions? Emotions could be more fulfilling.
Speaker 1: You have a great concern about people's emotions. You're seem
Speaker 1: to be concerned about that. We're not actually we don't
Speaker 1: actually know anything. We're just sort of emotionally satisfying each
Speaker 1: other with explanations. That seems to be a concern, right, That's.
Speaker 4: Yeah, That's what I was about to say, is that,
Speaker 4: like what I hear, at least from the scientific community
Speaker 4: is that what we see is not actually like what
Speaker 4: is there. It's just a representation, like a smaller diminished
Speaker 4: representation of what's actually there, because our brains are too
Speaker 4: small to process things that are actually there. So we
Speaker 4: I don't know the right word, but we summarize what's
Speaker 4: actually really going on. So that our brains can move
Speaker 4: on with what's going on in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like in a way.
Speaker 4: What's actually truer is what we're experiencing internally than what
Speaker 4: we see externally, because we have more grasp of what's
Speaker 4: going on inside than what's going out in the outside.
Speaker 4: And so like if we're communicating like in a positive way,
Speaker 4: let's say, and then like the world can communicate like
Speaker 4: to us, like for example, through Tarot cards in a
Speaker 4: way that we can understand, but that we cannot understand
Speaker 4: through the real world. So like the Tarot cards can
Speaker 4: give us like a summary summary version of what we
Speaker 4: need to know to live, to continue world living through
Speaker 4: the world in a way that we can understand.
Speaker 1: Okay, I get what you're putting down, And we got
Speaker 1: to wrap things up in just the Baker because we
Speaker 1: do have other callers, Ben, But what do you think
Speaker 1: about this idea? Because I think Jay and I are
Speaker 1: kind of under the presumption that terrort cards actually aren't
Speaker 1: telling us anything we don't already know, right, So in
Speaker 1: other words, it's not actually telling us things that exist
Speaker 1: out in the world. It's just giving us better insight
Speaker 1: on ourselves. It's sort of a kind of like looking
Speaker 1: at a mirror. It's sort of like giving us a
Speaker 1: way to sort of reflect on things that we already know.
Speaker 1: Other words, No, nothing new in that sense, but maybe
Speaker 1: a reframing or a new perspective. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: Jay's nodding his head, so I think, you know, we're
Speaker 1: kind of the opinion that this is really what happens
Speaker 1: when we're looking at tarot cards. We're just kind of
Speaker 1: reflecting on ourselves, right. What do you think of that explanation.
Speaker 4: I think it's that's part of it. It's it can
Speaker 4: also be bigger than that, in the sense that, like
Speaker 4: everything is kind of related in the universe, like there
Speaker 4: is a cause and effect, and we don't know how
Speaker 4: what happened before to get us to the point where
Speaker 4: the molecules and the atoms in the deck of cards
Speaker 4: led to the moment where we're reading them right now.
Speaker 4: And that's something that's external that could be communicating through
Speaker 4: us into the terrort cards and then through us to
Speaker 4: communicate something important about the universe that we don't understand.
Speaker 4: So that's potentially something there. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Why do we need to assume the universe is communicating
Speaker 1: something to us. Why does that make the best explanation.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm thinking cause and effect, Like, well, if everything
Speaker 4: was random, everything would be destroyed in a way because
Speaker 4: everything would lead to chaos and self destruction. I don't
Speaker 4: see like random leading to.
Speaker 1: Well, key thing here, Ben, we're not saying that when
Speaker 1: you're looking at tarot cards your reflections are random, right,
Speaker 1: because it is based on your own life experience, It
Speaker 1: is based on your own perspective. So that's not necessarily random, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because you are like your initiator, So you're not
Speaker 4: just right, you're yeah, if you're someone that's creating things
Speaker 4: to be different than the randomness in the in the world.
Speaker 2: Right, So I thank you said that that extra you're
Speaker 2: talking about, the extra you asked for.
Speaker 1: You just said what the extra is?
Speaker 3: Like, you gave me. You gave me an.
Speaker 2: Actual, physically in place thing you can present to me
Speaker 2: as evidence.
Speaker 1: You just said it. That's the extra.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I can even think that, Yes,
Speaker 4: Haret Krges could help to realign what you actually do
Speaker 4: believe and help you do that is to like solidify
Speaker 4: your own beliefs, so that yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, yeah, I think that's our opinion on it.
Speaker 1: But man, as much as I'd love to talk to
Speaker 1: you more about this, we do have some other callers
Speaker 1: that want to talk to us, so I want to
Speaker 1: give them a chance to you. I enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for calling. I hope you call again sometime.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Beddy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no problems, Thanks, good show.
Speaker 1: There you go. That was been from Canada. Wow, a
Speaker 1: lot of things happening there. I was thought, I you know,
Speaker 1: there was a minute there where I was like, where
Speaker 1: are we going with this?
Speaker 2: But it came back around I think right. I think
Speaker 2: at the end he answered his own question. That's what
Speaker 2: I love to see you literally answered his own question.
Speaker 1: Well, like, I'm glad that we were patient with that,
Speaker 1: and we we took that as seriously as we could
Speaker 1: because there's some genuine lines of thought there. It wasn't
Speaker 1: at first. I was just like, is this all just
Speaker 1: kind of just kind of just babbel nonsense? But no,
Speaker 1: I think there's some real connections there. It's just not
Speaker 1: very it's it's a very lateral sort of thought process,
Speaker 1: not super linear in that sense. But I was thinking down, yeah,
Speaker 1: put down, like you know, a lot of people have
Speaker 1: this sense of skepticism towards how we know the world
Speaker 1: because a lot of how we know the world is
Speaker 1: through institutions, Right, Like I know that the sun causes cancer.
Speaker 1: I didn't do any tests for that, right, I didn't
Speaker 1: do the work for that. I know that because somebody
Speaker 1: told me that, or I read somebody who reported that
Speaker 1: somebody told them that in a paper somewhere, right. And
Speaker 1: it's like, our knowledge is so fragmented, it's so it's
Speaker 1: not gained through personal experience, and so some people are
Speaker 1: very skeptical of those systems. And I think that's kind
Speaker 1: of what Ben's talking about. He's like, Hey, we have
Speaker 1: we understand that, we think we know things through science,
Speaker 1: but maybe that's more in emotional fulfillment. Maybe that's more
Speaker 1: speaking to our comfort in the world than anything else,
Speaker 1: which that's an interesting premise, and postmodern thinkers, I think,
Speaker 1: think about that. So you know, it wasn't nothing, That's
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say. There's something to that anyway.
Speaker 1: I agree. That's my thoughts. Hey, yeah, anything else before
Speaker 1: we move on, just to.
Speaker 2: Pick abag on what you said, it's it's definitely just
Speaker 2: ingrained in us and throughout history. We can go back
Speaker 2: and if we have evidence, there's always been us doing
Speaker 2: exactly what he's saying, whether that's tarot cards, whether that's
Speaker 2: writing in the sand, whether that's painting on the wall.
Speaker 2: We've literally always been doing these things. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 2: just been a reflection of us.
Speaker 1: True. Yeah, true, that's a good insight. True. Before we
Speaker 1: get to our next caller, I have to really quickly,
Speaker 1: really quickly tell you, Hey, if you like the show,
Speaker 1: please like, subscribe, check out our merch We've got it
Speaker 1: tight out cc slash mercy cya. If you want to
Speaker 1: see the hoodies, the t shirts, et cetera. All the
Speaker 1: fun stuff is on there. If you want to hear
Speaker 1: our content and audio only for you can go tiny
Speaker 1: out cc slash am podcast for all the latest ACA shows.
Speaker 1: And of course, another way to support us is through
Speaker 1: our super Chance And if we get some super chests today,
Speaker 1: we will read them out loud as long as they
Speaker 1: are YouTube appropriate. So thank you to those who donates
Speaker 1: through our super Chance. And last but not least, I
Speaker 1: need to think the wonderful, awesome, amazing soup end is
Speaker 1: fantastic crew that helped make this show happen every single week.
Speaker 1: There's our crew cam and they're awesome. And you know
Speaker 1: what I didn't do Patron of the Week, guys, I
Speaker 1: missed patre of the Week, Greg just Head. I know
Speaker 1: I usually never forget Patron of the Week. I'm usually
Speaker 1: very good at it, but I feel like recently I've
Speaker 1: I've been faltering. It's not good. So crew, can we
Speaker 1: get that patron of the week going here? In just
Speaker 1: the second? Can we can we talk about this week's
Speaker 1: patron of the week. Okay, this week's Patron of the
Speaker 1: week is going to be drum roll please at the
Speaker 1: da da Ka Leevy Helvetti. Thank you so much, hell
Speaker 1: Vetti for being our patron of the week. And if
Speaker 1: you wanted to join us on patroon you can go
Speaker 1: at ac dot show slash Patreon tw and that kind
Speaker 1: of tells the ACA Hey, truth Wanted is kind of
Speaker 1: awesome and it's the show worth supporting. So thank you
Speaker 1: to everybody that donates on there. You guys are all
Speaker 1: amazing for that. And with that out of the way,
Speaker 1: let's move on, shall we. Let's go to our next caller.
Speaker 1: This is Justin who is talking to us from New Jersey.
Speaker 1: I think this is gonna be really interesting, justin you
Speaker 1: are live on truth wanted what's going on?
Speaker 5: Hi Dan, Hi Jake.
Speaker 6: Long time I mean longtime listener of ACA content, big fan.
Speaker 6: I never worked up the nerve to actually call into
Speaker 6: one of the shows until I got to push notification
Speaker 6: that you were discussing this topic, and I'm.
Speaker 1: Like, oh, this is the day.
Speaker 5: It's nice I had.
Speaker 7: Said, Yeah, I really had to. You know, it's kind
Speaker 7: of a bit.
Speaker 5: Of a venting session.
Speaker 6: So my story is as follows. You know, my wife
Speaker 6: and I we've been married for about twelve years again
Speaker 6: thirteen and throughout all that time, I always knew that
Speaker 6: she was into tarow like.
Speaker 5: She had cards.
Speaker 6: I always think she had cards and her friends would
Speaker 6: play with the cards whenever she had her girlfriends over
Speaker 6: and all that, and you know, it was never something
Speaker 6: I had an issue with. I always kind of took
Speaker 6: it as like, oh, you know, something they do for
Speaker 6: funning games, and I left it at that. Then about
Speaker 6: three years ago, she ended up getting diagnosed with stage
Speaker 6: one breast cancer. And yeah, and she went through the chemo,
Speaker 6: the radiation, she did the surgery, and she came through it.
Speaker 5: You know, she beat it.
Speaker 6: She rang the bell all that and over time after
Speaker 6: throughout that time, mind you, she had other relatives while
Speaker 6: she was going through treatment and after her treatment that
Speaker 6: had passed away, and some of them even from cancer,
Speaker 6: and it was taking a heavy toll on her. And
Speaker 6: after her treatments were complete and she beat it, I
Speaker 6: think she was kind of dealing with some survivor's guilt
Speaker 6: that maybe she wasn't handling in the healthiest manner. And
Speaker 6: unbeknownst to me, I found out that she was spending
Speaker 6: a lot of money on a psychic website, getting Psyched Greetings.
Speaker 6: I found this out because I found this out because
Speaker 6: I was actually going into our we have joint credit cards,
Speaker 6: and I looked into one of the statements and I'm like,
Speaker 6: why is this always so much? Because I never thought
Speaker 6: to like distrust her with credit cards, because you know,
Speaker 6: she was always more of the kind of sane, stable
Speaker 6: one who was able to keep track of the bills.
Speaker 5: I'm terrible of that.
Speaker 6: But you know, I decided to do some deep diving,
Speaker 6: and I'm seeing all these charges one after the other
Speaker 6: after the other after the other for a psychic website,
Speaker 6: and you know, ranging from anywhere form from like fifteen
Speaker 6: dollars to upwards of one hundred and fifty dollars a
Speaker 6: hit and the span of the throughout the span of
Speaker 6: a year, she spent a little over four thousand dollars
Speaker 6: on psychic meetings and sorry how much you know how
Speaker 6: a little over four thousand, I would say, about.
Speaker 5: Five hundred dollars yes, wow, wow.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so needless to say, I was not a happy man,
Speaker 6: you know we I confronted her on it and obviously
Speaker 6: turned into a big argument. Come to find out, there
Speaker 6: were even more charges. Because we have joint bank accounts.
Speaker 6: I went to her bank account. I found even more charges,
Speaker 6: another fifteen hundred dollars worth of charges for this website.
Speaker 6: And I also found out that she spent about three
Speaker 6: thousand dollars to take a course from a quote spirit
Speaker 6: mentor unquote.
Speaker 5: Who you know.
Speaker 7: She calls him her.
Speaker 6: Spirit mentor because she is learning how to be a reader.
Speaker 6: She even goes onto WhatsApp with other people and she
Speaker 6: practiced reads to try to learn how to read people.
Speaker 6: She believes very much that she can communicate and see
Speaker 6: and talk to the dead. One of the biggest one
Speaker 6: of the one of the biggest arguments we got into
Speaker 6: was I had actually lost my dad a little over
Speaker 6: nine months ago to cancer, and I appreciate that, but
Speaker 6: uh yeah, So at one point, you know, I was just,
Speaker 6: you know, it was hitting me particularly hard that day,
Speaker 6: and I was very emotional and she was there trying
Speaker 6: to comfort me, and she goes, you know, at one point,
Speaker 6: she says to me, you know, you know, I still
Speaker 6: see him and I still talk to him, and he
Speaker 6: talks to me, and I just what I talked.
Speaker 1: About your dad. She was saying, you talk to your dad.
Speaker 5: Yes, So yeah, I mean I didn't mind you.
Speaker 6: Like I said, We've been together for thirteen years. She
Speaker 6: knows I'm a militant atheist, you know. You know, we
Speaker 6: got into arguments over the validity.
Speaker 5: Of what she believes, and she actually.
Speaker 6: You know, actually said that to me, and I'm like,
Speaker 6: you know, don't you ever bring my dad like that
Speaker 6: up ever again, ever, ever again. And that turned into
Speaker 6: another big argument. So basically right now, right now, I mean,
Speaker 6: she doesn't spend a lot of money on it anymore,
Speaker 6: but every now and then there'll be some kind of
Speaker 6: YouTube seminar or something where she'll spend forty dollars a year,
Speaker 6: fifty dollars there. And it's frustrating because for me, A
Speaker 6: little background on me, so I was I was raised
Speaker 6: in a fundamental Christian cult by my mom, So you know,
Speaker 6: I kind of know the cult tactics like I can
Speaker 6: I can.
Speaker 1: See it for sure, yes, yeah.
Speaker 6: And you know, and it was the same thing with
Speaker 6: my mother. You know, they they got her when she
Speaker 6: was in.
Speaker 5: A vulnerable state. That's what all these people do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's going to ask us, so was the
Speaker 1: reason why you brought up the story about the cancer?
Speaker 1: Was it be because that wasn't super clear to me
Speaker 1: as you were telling it. Was it because she was
Speaker 1: like struggling with the cancer that she got into the
Speaker 1: psychic stuff? Is that Is that the connection there?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, you know, and uh, it was just it's
Speaker 6: been I tried to give her space to believe what
Speaker 6: she wants to believe, but it's you know, there there
Speaker 6: there are some days where you know, I still think
Speaker 6: about all that money spent and it makes me mad,
Speaker 6: not even so much med at her, it makes me
Speaker 6: mad at this so called spirit mentor that that went
Speaker 6: to and gave like three thousand dollars too, because I'm
Speaker 6: you know, I take it personally. I take it as
Speaker 6: a personal attack on my family.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well I was like, it's sorry justin
Speaker 1: interrupt you. But it also I was like, I mean,
Speaker 1: she hid this from you, right, So she didn't think
Speaker 1: you were going to approve of this, right, and you
Speaker 1: had to find out the hard way, right.
Speaker 6: So, And that was her reasoning. That was her reasoning
Speaker 6: for for telling me why she didn't. She said, I
Speaker 6: didn't tell you because I knew you wouldn't.
Speaker 5: Understand and you wouldn't get it.
Speaker 1: Right, right.
Speaker 3: That was more what I was focusing on there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, was the fact that she didn't tell you, because
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, would you have cared
Speaker 2: if you guys both knew it was not real and.
Speaker 1: She still spent the same money.
Speaker 2: That would have been my question to you, like he
Speaker 2: knew about it, not if you knew about it, but
Speaker 2: actually no, if you knew about it, you have cared.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I would have cared about the money being spent.
Speaker 6: Like I said, if she wants to believe in that
Speaker 6: kind of thing, you know, I would give her space
Speaker 6: to do that.
Speaker 5: But you know, I mean spending.
Speaker 6: That kind of money when you know, we got a
Speaker 6: ten year old son going into middle school with some member.
Speaker 6: You know, we need clothes and uh, you know we
Speaker 6: got bills obviously to pay.
Speaker 5: And you know, here you are here, here, you are right.
Speaker 6: Under my nose, like spending all this money on this,
Speaker 6: on psychic mediums and a spirit mentor.
Speaker 1: And yeah, what does she think? Can I ask you this?
Speaker 1: What does she think the what does she think she did? What?
Speaker 1: What did this do for her? For in terms of
Speaker 1: the cancer thing? Like does she attribute this sort of
Speaker 1: spiritualist stuff to helping her get better? Yes?
Speaker 6: So it also it's also her way of I think
Speaker 6: coping with loss. I think that's also a big part
Speaker 6: of it. Like I said, like she had relatives who died.
Speaker 6: She said that there was one relative in particular that
Speaker 6: she attributed her spiritual awakening to, because she told me
Speaker 6: in one of our arguments that her spiritual awakening came
Speaker 6: when she had a sense that one of her relatives
Speaker 6: back home in the Dominican Republic was going to die.
Speaker 6: And sure enough, I think a day or two later,
Speaker 6: she died. And I'm like, okay, well.
Speaker 5: How old was she? And she goes ninety six?
Speaker 7: Oh my gee, you know, well what.
Speaker 1: A surprise, right, yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: But and that's the thing, like, and again.
Speaker 6: It's just I don't think it's because she's unintelligent. I
Speaker 6: just think it's because she was in a very you.
Speaker 7: Know, she suffered trauma, she suffered us.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know that's what these people, that's what
Speaker 6: these people do, like yore, she was just a sitting
Speaker 6: sitting duck for for for the people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's oh, go ahead, please please finish your thoughts,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 6: And uh, me, being the militant atheist I am, I
Speaker 6: kind of I wanted to kind of keep showing her
Speaker 6: that what that it was all fake, you know, showing
Speaker 6: her trying to show her James Randy clips and not
Speaker 6: realizing and not remembering that back when I was a kid,
Speaker 6: whenever somebody tried to tell my mother, someone in my
Speaker 6: family that what she was believing was nonsense, she would
Speaker 6: dig her heels in more and just keep doubling down
Speaker 6: on it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: But but I was so angry at the time and
Speaker 6: so frustrated that I just I couldn't help but want
Speaker 6: to really try to like drive.
Speaker 5: This point home.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, yeah, and yeah, it was just it
Speaker 6: was uh, you know, and it's still sometimes sometimes will
Speaker 6: be arguing, maybe about something else, and then it will
Speaker 6: come up again and oh yeah, well remember this time
Speaker 6: you spend fourth out, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I almost want to bring our
Speaker 1: backup host beard of empathy, honest beards, a therapist, right,
Speaker 1: like I, I like I, you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to give you marriage advice, right because, like I, you've
Speaker 1: been married longer than I have, justin okay, So, but
Speaker 1: but I will give you some perspective, okay, because I've
Speaker 1: I've been in a relationship where I was the atheist
Speaker 1: and the other person wasn't. And it was actually when
Speaker 1: I was even doing this Colling Show stuff, they were
Speaker 1: still supportive of it. But they were they described themselves
Speaker 1: as Christian. They were the probably the loosest Christian you
Speaker 1: ever met, but a Christian nonethe last okay.
Speaker 3: So, and.
Speaker 1: You know, and there was always way to be some
Speaker 1: of those disagreements there because you have a different perspective,
Speaker 1: in a different worldview, right. But like, what is important
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I think first and
Speaker 1: foremost is your commitment to one another, right, and part
Speaker 1: of your commitment to one another is being honest about
Speaker 1: what you're doing with the finances and stuff, right, Like,
Speaker 1: that's just that wasn't wrong because she she spent money
Speaker 1: on a psychic and the psyche stuff wasn't real. That
Speaker 1: was wrong because she went behind your back and did
Speaker 1: it and didn't talk to you about it, and and
Speaker 1: because she was worried about what you'd say about it.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe there's obviously a conversation we had there
Speaker 1: about like, well, what does that trust look like between
Speaker 1: the two of you? Right? And if she's going to
Speaker 1: be exploring that kind of stuff now, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's going to be a correct answer
Speaker 1: to this. Maybe Beard would agree, Maybe be Bearer's over
Speaker 1: here like, yeah, you know, the absolutely you should be
Speaker 1: doing X, Y and Z. But from my perspective, right,
Speaker 1: it's can you have a trust with this person about
Speaker 1: the decisions you're going to do? Because ultimately she sounds
Speaker 1: like she's good, she's made up her mind, she's going
Speaker 1: to make, you know, these kinds of decisions. So what
Speaker 1: what is that going to look like for your relationship
Speaker 1: going forward? Are you going to be okay with that?
Speaker 1: Because you need to be okay with the idea that
Speaker 1: she's going to believe this stuff and she's not going
Speaker 1: to change on that. And if that idea rubs you wrong,
Speaker 1: that might that you might need to reconsider what your
Speaker 1: relationship is because you can't force somebody to think the
Speaker 1: way you do about this stuff. You just can't. At
Speaker 1: the end of the day, as much as I want
Speaker 1: to make everybody in my life a non believer, I
Speaker 1: would rather than have that conclusion themselves rather than me
Speaker 1: saying they have to be this way, because that's just
Speaker 1: not how people are, right. You can't you can't force
Speaker 1: me for that. So I don't know that that's neat.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of words for me, justin I don't
Speaker 1: know what you think about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, And look I will say, you know,
Speaker 6: we are in we are in couples therapy and working
Speaker 6: things out, and she she more or less does a
Speaker 6: lot of the same things that you do. You know,
Speaker 6: she's like, you know, she's not going to stop believing
Speaker 6: what she believes. And you know, you basically, if you
Speaker 6: want this to work, you got to find a little
Speaker 6: ground somewhere, you know. Yeah, she has to be more
Speaker 6: transparent about spending. I have to do a little more
Speaker 6: understanding about giving her space, and you know that's fair.
Speaker 6: I also and you know, I'm also in therapy myself.
Speaker 6: The thing is my I would like for my wife
Speaker 6: to get into therapy as well to kind of deal
Speaker 6: with some of the things that she went through. The
Speaker 6: thing is like she sees a somatic therapist who unfortunately
Speaker 6: kind of validates the stuff that she believes in, so
Speaker 6: I don't necessarily think she's getting the best of treatment
Speaker 6: or the kind of treatment she needs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is that a therapist? Are they? Are they licened?
Speaker 1: You know? Are they critical?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: So yeah, she is a licensed therapist, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And you know these somatic therapy that can go either way,
Speaker 1: that can be you know, some therapists are like yeah
Speaker 1: I do this, this, this and this, and then that
Speaker 1: are like, oh I do all the things that you
Speaker 1: can't actually get registered for, you know what I mean? Right, Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker 6: So basically what her sessions consist of is like, you know,
Speaker 6: she'll give her like a synopsis of maybe what happened
Speaker 6: over the last couple of weeks, and then at the
Speaker 6: end they'll do like breathing exercises and okay, it's pretty much.
Speaker 1: It all right.
Speaker 6: When I after and after I confronted her about the
Speaker 6: spending the therapist was. Actually she was telling the therapist
Speaker 6: about her mentor and how much it cost her to
Speaker 6: go to the mentor, and Psychic told her, I think
Speaker 6: that's a great yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: She's like, yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 5: A great deal for what you've got.
Speaker 1: And you know, so okay, I don't know, okay, yeah
Speaker 1: on the red flags there, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's.
Speaker 6: She She also said that, you know, it sounds like
Speaker 6: to me like your husband is trying to control your spending.
Speaker 6: And I don't think that's scary. Do you try to
Speaker 6: control his spending?
Speaker 7: You know that that kind of you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah, I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: less about you know, it's not about control, right, It's
Speaker 1: about transparency. I think I think maybe if your response was,
Speaker 1: I this is I'm not going to let you do this, right,
Speaker 1: you know that that's one conversation, but you didn't even
Speaker 1: know it was happening, at least at the time, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about it right now, obviously,
Speaker 1: like she's doing what she's doing, so you have to
Speaker 1: be comfortable on some level, right, And which is I
Speaker 1: think right? Like you know, because you're an adult and
Speaker 1: she's an adult. You got to live your lives. You
Speaker 1: got to figure it out, right.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's like anything else. It's good days and bad,
Speaker 6: you know, especially after after and of course, like all
Speaker 6: this shit happens like right after I was my dad,
Speaker 6: you know, because my dad was like kind of like
Speaker 6: my right hand man, like he was my guy, like
Speaker 6: he was my rock.
Speaker 5: I could fight everything in him.
Speaker 6: And you know, it was it was hard dealing with
Speaker 6: the walk with my father and then on top of
Speaker 6: that finding this out, you know, because it just felt
Speaker 6: like a betrayal from her that I never expected in
Speaker 6: a million years from her. You know, there was some
Speaker 6: disillusionment there, some heartbreak there, and it was difficult to process.
Speaker 6: And there are things sometimes because I said at work,
Speaker 6: I said, I sit at desk at work all day.
Speaker 6: It gets my numbing and sometimes I'll get invasive thoughts
Speaker 6: and it'll get.
Speaker 7: Me mad all over again.
Speaker 1: But you know I probably did the same thing. What
Speaker 1: are you going to say, Jay, Say, that's that's tough.
Speaker 2: I have some similar experiences with relationship and my wife
Speaker 2: as well. I'm not going to be the one to
Speaker 2: say to do take my route but I'm more of
Speaker 2: a grat person when it comes to these things. If
Speaker 2: my wife ever came to me saying that something's true,
Speaker 2: I just asked her to prove it and then we
Speaker 2: kind of go from there. So if she says tarot
Speaker 2: cards are real, and I'm like, hey, I'll spend money
Speaker 2: on something that's real, so let's see if it's real.
Speaker 2: And if she can't show it's real, that's kind of
Speaker 2: our rule. And it's the same thing for me as well.
Speaker 2: If I come to her and I'm like, hey, this
Speaker 2: will work, whether that's business, whether that's an idea I have,
Speaker 2: I have to present her with evidence on why we
Speaker 2: should maybe spend money on this or why we should
Speaker 2: spend our allocate our time towards this.
Speaker 3: And that's kind of how we go about it.
Speaker 2: And that's whether she's talking about supernatural things or.
Speaker 3: Just things we both know are just regular life things.
Speaker 2: I think that is what a relationship should be, is
Speaker 2: people coming together showing the evidence on why they think.
Speaker 3: The group should take that path forward.
Speaker 2: And if you can't come with evidence, you got to
Speaker 2: go back to the drawing table and then come back again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's that's kind of my parents.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know I think, like, like with Justin's wife, though,
Speaker 1: like her evidence is, well, the psychic told me this thing,
Speaker 1: and this thing came true, right, or I got a
Speaker 1: feeling about this thing, right, so it's like.
Speaker 3: Something to come true. I'm sorry I missed that point.
Speaker 1: Well, well they were saying somebody died and then uh,
Speaker 1: you know, it was like yeah, So it's like I
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, when you don't have that shared standard
Speaker 1: of evidence, it's harder to do that. Uh, you're right.
Speaker 1: And with me and my wife, it's you know, she's
Speaker 1: a staunch atheist, but like we go back and forth
Speaker 1: about chiropractice. She she's fine with some chiropractor and she
Speaker 1: thinks some of them are shams for sure, but she's
Speaker 1: okay with some of them because they, you know, they
Speaker 1: give her what do you call it, sort of that
Speaker 1: temporary relief, And I'm like, I don't care. I can
Speaker 1: go to somebody that has an MD for that. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't need to go to a chiropractor. But you know,
Speaker 1: like we we get along with other things in life
Speaker 1: because I eventually, you know, I have that trust in
Speaker 1: her right, and it all goes back to that trust
Speaker 1: it all goes back to that those foundations of your relationship.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly so, And that's the thing mm hmm.
Speaker 6: And that's the thing, you know, like you knows as
Speaker 6: much as I'm not crazy as about the whole psychic
Speaker 6: you know, the whole spirituality thing. I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 6: bother me as much as like you were saying that
Speaker 6: the lack of transparency with the money being right and
Speaker 6: that right could have been spent on anything.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I still would have me bad.
Speaker 1: I think that's your focus, man. I think that's your focus, Justine.
Speaker 1: I think that's what it has to be, because you
Speaker 1: can fight the good atheist fight all day, but if
Speaker 1: he doesn't have the same values of evidence, right, those
Speaker 1: same values of method, then that's gonna be an up
Speaker 1: to the battle. I think for you, I think you
Speaker 1: have to bring it down to your relationship fundamentals. If
Speaker 1: if if, I mean, if if it were me, Justin,
Speaker 1: that's that's what I would focus on because that's going
Speaker 1: to be a quicker path to solving things then changing
Speaker 1: her entire worldview on spirituality and religion and everything else. Right,
Speaker 1: And it's unfortunate because man, in just the last call,
Speaker 1: I was taking the soft stance. I was saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, if people have terror cards, I really don't care.
Speaker 1: What's my exceptions though, money and emotional manipulation, And that's
Speaker 1: the two things that are happening in your case right now,
Speaker 1: right This is why this stuff sucks. I hate and
Speaker 1: and and and why. Like I can be cool with,
Speaker 1: you know, my neighbor who likes to do terror rings
Speaker 1: for fun, versus somebody who has a practice of legitimately
Speaker 1: taking advantage of emotionally vulnerable people. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's terrible, it's terrible, and what do you be able
Speaker 1: to do about it? It's it's what can you do?
Speaker 1: It's hard, right because your wife's an adult, she makes
Speaker 1: her own decisions, she's got her own life, So I yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's that's that's my take. I think
Speaker 1: just at the end of the day, it's you go
Speaker 1: to those relationship fundamentals. That's what you do first. You
Speaker 1: do the atheist thing it's going to be you know,
Speaker 1: that comes later, That comes later. It's it's figuring out
Speaker 1: that first part first. That's more important at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, because there are people in interfaith relationships
Speaker 1: that I know them, and they make it work. And
Speaker 1: they do that because they love and trust the person
Speaker 1: that they're with and the faith stuff that's secondary, that
Speaker 1: doesn't matter as much, you know. And so right now
Speaker 1: you're kind of in an interfaith relationship. You're with somebody
Speaker 1: who has beliefs about the out for life and has
Speaker 1: beliefs about people and their and their abilities, and that's
Speaker 1: you got to figure out what you're going to do with,
Speaker 1: right So yeah, many tough man, that's tough. But I
Speaker 1: really appreciate you telling us about it, that you that
Speaker 1: you trust us to tell us your story and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe vent a little bit. Maybe that's what you needed.
Speaker 1: So I hope.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for you, it was.
Speaker 7: Great and I really appreciate you'll let me bend your
Speaker 7: ear and you know, it was a.
Speaker 5: Blast to be able to break this. I appreciate you both.
Speaker 1: Great. Well, just to if anything changes in your situation,
Speaker 1: can you call let us know what's up. You know,
Speaker 1: I want to hear absolutely yet great you know any
Speaker 1: other topics too. You know we're down. You know you
Speaker 1: said your longtime listener, I want to I love to
Speaker 1: hear more from you, So thank you. Justin we'll let
Speaker 1: you go now because we've got some other folks who
Speaker 1: want to talk to but really appreciate you calling, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope your situation improves my man. Well, we'll wait
Speaker 1: to hear more, but until then, yeah, we'll let you go.
Speaker 1: Thanks man. Wow wow wow Jay to one.
Speaker 2: Whoa.
Speaker 1: We were just talking about this. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of money involved there. That was tough. Four thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: Four thousand dollars, JA, but you were you were so
Speaker 3: right on what you said at the end.
Speaker 2: There it is they need to get the base part first,
Speaker 2: where you're saying it's about the relationship, and then let
Speaker 2: all the other stuff fix itself after that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a problem. That's a problem with people.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say that's just an atheist community problem.
Speaker 1: But but you know, you see shows like ours and
Speaker 1: we talk about the atheist stuff, we talk about the evidence,
Speaker 1: we talk about all this, and I think some people
Speaker 1: walk away from that and they say, well, this is
Speaker 1: how I need to approach my conversations with other people.
Speaker 1: And that's not necessarily true, right, because we're talking about
Speaker 1: very specific issues. This is an issue that's beyond just
Speaker 1: the religion stuff, right, that's a relationship issue. Is you
Speaker 1: got to figure out And I think for a lot
Speaker 1: of people it's relationship issue they got to figure out
Speaker 1: first before the other show.
Speaker 2: And I think you got on to what I was
Speaker 2: saying there too, which I'm glad you switched it a
Speaker 2: little bit where I was saying that would you have
Speaker 2: cared if it was something else?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly.
Speaker 3: Where I was getting at.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you jumped on it right away, whereas this, Yeah
Speaker 1: you got it. It's true, it's true. You know, these
Speaker 1: things are more interchangeable than what people might give them
Speaker 1: credit for. A Let's see if we can get at
Speaker 1: least one more caller in before the end of today's show.
Speaker 1: I think this next one I want to get is great,
Speaker 1: or it looks to be great. This is Bob who's
Speaker 1: talking to us from New York. Bob wants to know
Speaker 1: about right and wrong from the perspective of an atheist.
Speaker 1: What that means for us, Bob, You're live on truth wanted.
Speaker 1: What's up, Bob? Can you hear us? You are alive
Speaker 1: on the show calling for Bob. You are alive, Bob,
Speaker 1: giving you one more chance? Okay, Bob, if you're talking,
Speaker 1: we can't hear you, so we're gonna put you right
Speaker 1: back into the queue. Doesn't mean that we can't talk
Speaker 1: to you. You may have been maybe you've been on
Speaker 1: hold for a while and you put your phone down.
Speaker 1: That's cool. Just let the let the call screeners know
Speaker 1: and we'll get back to you. Right now. We have
Speaker 1: open lines. We got fifteen minutes before the end of
Speaker 1: the show, So if anybody else wants to kind of
Speaker 1: call in and talk about it, talk to us, then
Speaker 1: we want to talk to you. I will say atheist
Speaker 1: morality is a hard thing because I would say it's
Speaker 1: one of the most difficult questions to answer, and some
Speaker 1: I've talked about this with Kelly Laughlin co hosts. He
Speaker 1: disagrees with me on this hard I say it's one
Speaker 1: of the hardest ones to answer. Maybe you disagree with me, Jay,
Speaker 1: I think it's hard because if you are like our
Speaker 1: background where you grew up thinking Christiane is the way
Speaker 1: of the truth and the life, and you don't know
Speaker 1: how to you don't know how to operate outside of that.
Speaker 1: You're talking about like God made right and wrong. So
Speaker 1: if God's not real, what does right wrong even me?
Speaker 1: And why not just do whatever the hell you want
Speaker 1: in any given point of view, even if that means
Speaker 1: hurting other people, why not do that?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: That was hard for me to sort of conceptualize, but
Speaker 1: I think I kind of figured it out. What what
Speaker 1: do you think about this question? Though? Jay?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually I was hoping that I like
Speaker 3: this kind of conversation.
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, I would have talked because I
Speaker 2: found when I was a Christian, I thought what I
Speaker 2: wanted to do as far as be a good person
Speaker 2: was because of Christianity. And then I started digging deeper
Speaker 2: and it was just like, hey, Jay, you just care
Speaker 2: about people. If you didn't, if you didn't believe this book,
Speaker 2: guess what you still care about people? Yeah, And that's
Speaker 2: really happened to me is I stopped believing it and
Speaker 2: I still cared. I still care about people, and it's
Speaker 2: just it's just me and I think it's a part
Speaker 2: of social creatures. We evolution has made our traits to
Speaker 2: need to care about each other after a while.
Speaker 1: How long does it take to bring up a baby?
Speaker 3: You have to you have to take care of the baby,
Speaker 3: and you have to care about it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know, it all makes sense to
Speaker 1: me sure, I think I operate under similar lines. Right.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's really it just comes from our human
Speaker 1: capacity to care about each other. And that brings up
Speaker 1: a really scary implication, because there are people that don't
Speaker 1: care about other people and I don't. And I mean
Speaker 1: that in the most clinical sense.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: We have psychopaths, sociopaths, people who struggle or lack empathy
Speaker 1: for other people, and that affects their ability to reason
Speaker 1: decisions right on what they think is going to be best.
Speaker 1: They may have their own interest in mind, and if
Speaker 1: we had, if more of the people in the world
Speaker 1: were like this, our ideas of right and wrong would
Speaker 1: be very different.
Speaker 3: It was at one point I would say, yeah, there
Speaker 3: were more people, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'd say so. And so that's I think a constant
Speaker 1: human struggle. I think that's always going to be the case.
Speaker 1: You're always going to have people who have that, and
Speaker 1: it's just something we have to wrestle with as people that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: our our sense of morality kind of does come from
Speaker 1: our just predisposition, our sort.
Speaker 2: Of genetic scary thing when you realize that for some yeah,
Speaker 2: you haven't realized it yet, and you wake up one
Speaker 2: day and you realize that, hey, the person across the
Speaker 2: street that might want to harm me might have just
Speaker 2: as many reasons.
Speaker 1: To do it as I would say not to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and true, very that's scary. Yeah. Yeah, So so you know,
Speaker 1: do I have an answer to is morality objective?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 1: I'm one of those atheists that think morality there is
Speaker 1: no sort of like universal system that everybody can agree
Speaker 1: on to make sense of it. Like, I think we
Speaker 1: get close to it, and I think we try our best,
Speaker 1: and I think we can use reason, but it's still
Speaker 1: not perfect. I think our reason is is flawed, and
Speaker 1: I think our reasoning can still make mistakes. And it
Speaker 1: happens every day all the time. So it's I think
Speaker 1: it under that lens, it's not objective because it's not
Speaker 1: like the game of chess doesn't have to change over time, right,
Speaker 1: you can keep the same rules, But our morality is
Speaker 1: changing all the time. So how can I really say
Speaker 1: it's subjective in that sense. I think it's objective as
Speaker 1: close as it can be to us right now. But
Speaker 1: ten years from now, I'm probably going to have a
Speaker 1: different perspective on what's right and wrong, and that that
Speaker 1: should give us pause. I'm not going to have a
Speaker 1: different perspective on how chess works. So I don't know.
Speaker 1: Unless I get really good at chess, maybe I know
Speaker 1: more about it, But like the rules are still the same. Right,
Speaker 1: So that was a good thing you just said there.
Speaker 2: If we find out something about chess that we didn't know,
Speaker 2: the rules might change a little bit. And that's the
Speaker 2: same thing with our societies. If we find out something
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, everything changes.
Speaker 1: That's a good insight.
Speaker 2: If we find in like a clean energy tomorrow, like
Speaker 2: you know, just like it changes society, Like everything changes.
Speaker 1: No, that's that's so true. So like people like gen
Speaker 1: Z folks love to bring this up. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: the brain doesn't finish developing into like twenty five, which
Speaker 1: like isn't true by the way that there's like there's
Speaker 1: no consensus someone the brain like stops developing. This is
Speaker 1: just kind of a cultural myth. But they bring this
Speaker 1: up because, well, maybe we should treat people up to
Speaker 1: eight twenty five differently, right, Maybe you know that information,
Speaker 1: if you are to believe it to be true, should
Speaker 1: affect how you operate in the world. Right, So that's
Speaker 1: that's like how your analogy of chess. Right, that's kind
Speaker 1: of like learning a new rule of chess. Oh, if
Speaker 1: we know that people's capacity is different, then maybe the
Speaker 1: way we legislate or maybe the way we treat people
Speaker 1: should be different. Right, So in that history as well. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so it does kind of affect our every day. Science
Speaker 1: does inform our morality in that sense, which is fascinating.
Speaker 1: Christianity doesn't say science informs morality. Never doesn't say that.
Speaker 1: It says it comes from God or depending on the
Speaker 1: kind of Christian you are. One day, our ancestors ate
Speaker 1: a fruit and we discovered both wrong and we didn't
Speaker 1: have to learn anymore after that, we kind of knew, right,
Speaker 1: So you know, what do you do with that?
Speaker 2: You don't do anything with it besides be stuck in
Speaker 2: the past. I mean, yeah, that's kind of how I
Speaker 2: look at that, true, you know, right, like we have
Speaker 2: we have people that want to go back to the past.
Speaker 2: Now I'll say that just like we've gone past it,
Speaker 2: we're trying to go back. But I always tell my kids,
Speaker 2: one day, I hope that I am considered a bad person,
Speaker 2: because that means that their society has gotten so much better.
Speaker 3: Like I want to look into the future and be
Speaker 3: that that person.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, that guy, we don't believe what he
Speaker 2: believes anymore A good way in the good way.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I tell them that all the time. That's
Speaker 1: an interesting because, like, you know, people always do this, right, Well,
Speaker 1: you can't judge people in history because they lived in
Speaker 1: the times and can agree, right, So, like you have
Speaker 1: to judge people on sort of a sliding scale is
Speaker 1: kind of how people do. So you agree with that notion.
Speaker 1: You think that we shouldn't judge people as harshly from
Speaker 1: a certain period ago.
Speaker 2: Bringing up the Bible that we brought up. I don't
Speaker 2: judge them for what they believed in. I think what
Speaker 2: was written was for them. They read it for their
Speaker 2: culture and that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I kind of think along similar lines because
Speaker 1: when I think about my own upbringing, my education, you know,
Speaker 1: I have access to the Internet, I have like all
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff that most people in most periods of
Speaker 1: time didn't have, and like, like, unarguably those experiences, those
Speaker 1: privileges that I have affect my worldview. Right, I'm a
Speaker 1: different person because of the access to things I have
Speaker 1: in my experiences. So how can I judge somebody who
Speaker 1: didn't have access to those things and they just knew
Speaker 1: their own religion and their own culture in their own environment. Right,
Speaker 1: So it does become harder. And that's sense you do
Speaker 1: with your kids too. When you have kids, you know
Speaker 1: they don't have information you have, and you treat them better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll hope the difference. Yeah, if you're a good parent,
Speaker 1: which I think you are.
Speaker 3: Unless unless you're the God of the Bible, you don't
Speaker 3: do these things.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, right, because because Christianity says no, no,
Speaker 1: you have to. This is the objective standard and you
Speaker 1: can judge it in all times in places, which is
Speaker 1: inconsistent in the Bible narrative, by the way, But you.
Speaker 2: Know that furnishing your kids for leaving the tree that
Speaker 2: you didn't want them to eat from it is an
Speaker 2: amazing thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me that that makes sense. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, off topic a little bit, but no,
Speaker 1: it's on topic because like the Bible doesn't have a
Speaker 1: concept of like liability, you know, like like God isn'tliable
Speaker 1: because he's God, I guess, and he just makes the
Speaker 1: rules Like was he liable for leaving the tree? I mean,
Speaker 1: I would think so right, that seems to make sense,
Speaker 1: But nobody they don't really talk about that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's not really hard one to talk about.
Speaker 3: It's hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah. On that note, you know we uh, it looks
Speaker 1: like Bob wasn't able to talk back with this. I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry about that, Bob. Next time you call it,
Speaker 1: we'll try to talk to you. You know, maybe we'll
Speaker 1: try to talk to you sooner in case you were
Speaker 1: like waiting for too long or whatever. But I want
Speaker 1: to give an awesome shout out to Jay for joining
Speaker 1: me on today's broadcast. Jay, you were awesome to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Thanks so much. Thank you. I have fun
Speaker 1: good times. Yeah, I enjoyed. I enjoyed this stuff. Man,
Speaker 1: I enjoyed too.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm here. It's gonna be great. Uh, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's gonna Why am I saying it's
Speaker 1: gonna be great? It's been great to talk with you.
Speaker 1: If people want to find more of your stuff, where
Speaker 1: should they go?
Speaker 2: If you just type in YouTube never flame, never Tilt,
Speaker 2: you will find me. You'll see my ugly mug pop up.
Speaker 2: One long word, never flame, never Tilt. That's all you
Speaker 2: need to do, and that's on YouTube, right, that's great. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't have much any other any places, So YouTube's
Speaker 2: the place awesome you want to did you want to
Speaker 2: see me? It's on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays.
Speaker 1: There you go. So that's where you should go if
Speaker 1: you want to check out more of Jay's stuff. I
Speaker 1: want to give a special shout out to our backup host, Beard,
Speaker 1: who we alluded to early, Beard of Empathy. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for joining us and for being here. Beard. What'd
Speaker 1: you think of today's show?
Speaker 8: That it was an interesting show, interesting topic. I do
Speaker 8: disagree with it though. There is something that tarot cards
Speaker 8: do predict very well. Oh yeah that is Yes, that
Speaker 8: said that a gullible rube is about to be departed
Speaker 8: from their money.
Speaker 1: Damn, damn, all right, you can't be doing that at
Speaker 1: the end of the show, bro, Like before, we cant
Speaker 1: even debate about it. But now I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a bit of a I mean, yeah, gullible,
Speaker 1: emotionally vulnerable. I don't know, somebody, somebody's getting to take
Speaker 1: advantage of if money's being parted when it comes to
Speaker 1: tarot cards, right for sure? Yeah, I do agree.
Speaker 8: They can be used as a therapy tool for free associations.
Speaker 8: They can help us, you know, have an idea of
Speaker 8: something to do. What direction do I want to write
Speaker 8: something about what ideas are coming up? But they should
Speaker 8: always be done, you know, knowing that it's not predicting
Speaker 8: the future at all. It's not psychic at all.
Speaker 1: It's just these things are just like horoscopes.
Speaker 8: Like they're so broad and so generic in their meanings
Speaker 8: and interpretations that they can mean anything.
Speaker 1: That's true. Although you got to be careful when you say, well,
Speaker 1: these things are just like horoscopes, because somebody who's already
Speaker 1: into tarot cards probably like, oh, yeah, horoscopes are awesome too,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, but yeah, good
Speaker 1: insight on that. I appreciate that, and I like the
Speaker 1: specification that, like, yes, this is a tool, but it's
Speaker 1: not everything. It's not everything. Can only do so much,
Speaker 1: you know. I think I agree with that. You know,
Speaker 1: before we end every episode, Jay, I always like to
Speaker 1: ask my guest host for some words of wisdom, and
Speaker 1: I usually do this on the spot and don't tell
Speaker 1: them ahead of time. So I'm asking you, now, what's
Speaker 1: your words of wisdom today before we wrap up today's
Speaker 1: episode of Truth Wanted. Perfect for me, man.
Speaker 2: I like that. Just basically, any idea that you have,
Speaker 2: any idea that anyone you're talking to has. I do
Speaker 2: believe that we should start forming our society on proving things,
Speaker 2: which means doing research. So if something's important to you,
Speaker 2: do the research on it, find out the facts, find
Speaker 2: out the things that you may have wrong.
Speaker 1: Just really drive to learn and be curious.
Speaker 2: And I really think that be curious and if you're curious,
Speaker 2: it'll lead you towards finding the truth.
Speaker 3: So just keep up that curiosity.
Speaker 1: And I love that. That's my sermon for Sunday. Good sermon,
Speaker 1: good sermon. I love that. Co sign on that. That's
Speaker 1: a good one. Folks. I'm objectively dan. This has been
Speaker 1: another great episode of Truth Wanted. Remember to always keep
Speaker 1: wanting the truth. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 7: H m hmmm.
Speaker 3: Mmmm h.
Speaker 6: M.
Speaker 1: Watch Talking and Sundays at one pm Central and calling
Speaker 1: to the show one or connected to the show line
Speaker 1: at a c A dot call