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<v Speaker 1>All right, Hi, this is William Ramsey. Welcome to William

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<v Speaker 1>Ramsey Investigates on Tonight Show. Have a very special guest.

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<v Speaker 1>He comes to us from the UK. His name is

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<v Speaker 1>John Higgs, and he's just published an excellent book which

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<v Speaker 1>I finished this morning. The title of the book is

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<v Speaker 1>William Blake Versus the World, published May twenty twenty one.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is not the author's first book. He also

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<v Speaker 1>wrote back in two thousand and six published I Have

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<v Speaker 1>America Surrounded, a biography of Timothy Leary, which I consider

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<v Speaker 1>would be the best biography of Timothy Leery. I've read

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<v Speaker 1>that and quoted that. He's also written the KLF Chaos, Magic, Music, Money,

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<v Speaker 1>published twenty twelve, Stranger Than We Can Imagine, Making Sense

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<v Speaker 1>of the Twentieth Century published twenty fifteen, Watling Street Travels

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<v Speaker 1>through Britain and It's ever present Past, and also the

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<v Speaker 1>Future Starts Here, published twenty twenty. But we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this book, William Blake Versus the World. I

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<v Speaker 1>knew a little bit about Blake, but this really increased

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<v Speaker 1>my understanding of him and from a variety of different

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<v Speaker 1>perspective of a very unique, interesting individual. So we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to talk about that. John Higgs, are you there, Yeah, Hi, William.

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<v Speaker 2>Good to talk to you.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome, Well, thanks for bringing to the interview for people

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<v Speaker 1>maybe who might not have heard of your background. You

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about your interest in William Blake

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<v Speaker 1>and what led you to read write this book, William

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<v Speaker 1>Blakes the World.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I mean it's My books often seem to be

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of a random hodgepodge to people. I'll write

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<v Speaker 2>a book about there's a band in the UK called

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<v Speaker 2>the KLF in the early nineties, a rave band who

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<v Speaker 2>are probably most notorious for burning a million pounds. And

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<v Speaker 2>I went from that to a history of the twentieth century,

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<v Speaker 2>and I went from that to accounter an old Roman road.

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<v Speaker 2>And they can appear to be sort of strange little hops,

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<v Speaker 2>where every book is an attempt to get out of

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<v Speaker 2>the box that the last one has put you in.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you read them all together there does seem

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<v Speaker 2>to be a bit of a through line. For instance,

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned my Timothy Leary book, which was the first

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<v Speaker 2>thing I wrote back in two thousand and six. Timothy

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<v Speaker 2>Leary makes quite appearance in my Look at Blake, and

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<v Speaker 2>Blake himself has appeared in many of my other books

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<v Speaker 2>along the Line, Along the Days, you know, And so

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<v Speaker 2>I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>This book kind of starts out with this very unique character,

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<v Speaker 1>William Blake. Can you talk about where he started up

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<v Speaker 1>in kind of his background and his entry into kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the art really this kind of artistic world, a

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<v Speaker 1>variety of different types of visual and also poetry.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, I mean for people who don't know. William

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<v Speaker 2>Blake was an eighteenth century early nineteenth century poet, writer, illustrator, engraver.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps more importantly, he was a visionary. He had visions

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<v Speaker 2>throughout his entire life. When he was around the age

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<v Speaker 2>of four, he saw God pressing in through the window

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<v Speaker 2>of his house in the upstairs room and screamed. And

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<v Speaker 2>at the age of eight, he walked from the center

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<v Speaker 2>of London where he lived in Soho, he walked out

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<v Speaker 2>in the countryside to a place called Peckham Rai and

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<v Speaker 2>sat down under a tree and looked at the street

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<v Speaker 2>and there his angels on every bow and that that's

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<v Speaker 2>him at eight. And he had the same level of

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<v Speaker 2>sort of visionary insight until until old age, through his

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<v Speaker 2>entire life, and as a result, he was you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he saw the world very differently to his contemporaries and

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<v Speaker 2>his peers, and he was ignored really for much of

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<v Speaker 2>his life. He was he was he was dismissed and

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<v Speaker 2>mocked and a lot of people just saw him as a madman.

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<v Speaker 2>But he certainly towards the end of the life, he

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<v Speaker 2>he just he just believed that the visions that he

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<v Speaker 2>had were so worthy and so and they made his

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<v Speaker 2>life so rich. You know, he was rich in every

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<v Speaker 2>single aspect of life that you could imagine, with the

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<v Speaker 2>exception of financially. You know that he he it sort

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<v Speaker 2>of inspired him just to keep working and working, and

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<v Speaker 2>he he produced these extraordinary, illuminated books that appear to

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<v Speaker 2>have been written from a position outside of normal time

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<v Speaker 2>and space that I say didn't make much an impact

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<v Speaker 2>of his time. But two hundred years later, there's just

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<v Speaker 2>been this slow increase in people sort of coming to

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<v Speaker 2>him and recognizing that what he was trying to tell

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<v Speaker 2>as was important and was of a great value.

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<v Speaker 1>And you see, sorry, not good.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just going to say. He became a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a point of reference. In the nineteen sixties after

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<v Speaker 2>Aldous Huxley wrote a book about mescaline called The Doors

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<v Speaker 2>of Perception, which is one of the first sort of

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<v Speaker 2>intellectual whether that's the right word, sort of looks at

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<v Speaker 2>the impact of a psychedelic drug on the mind. And

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<v Speaker 2>he took the name Doors of Perception from William Blake

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<v Speaker 2>because who else had been talking about those things? And

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<v Speaker 2>then Jim Morrison comes along and calls his bands the

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<v Speaker 2>Doors based on this book, and and and so on,

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<v Speaker 2>so he became a bit of a counterculture icon in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen sixties.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's somebody who really wasn't The public was

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<v Speaker 1>not aware of him, although he did have recognition from

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<v Speaker 1>maybe some other people in his art community. But he

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<v Speaker 1>didn't He didn't live, he wasn't financially, he didn't seem

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<v Speaker 1>to be interested in commercial success. Would you agree with that?

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<v Speaker 2>He was very good at ruining any possibility of commercial work.

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<v Speaker 2>I was at the British Library a few weeks ago

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<v Speaker 2>and seeing these letters he wrote, and there's just two

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<v Speaker 2>letters together that it just it's a it's an absolute

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<v Speaker 2>three act drama, the whole thing. This guy commissioned him

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<v Speaker 2>to produce one specific piece of art, an illustration, and

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<v Speaker 2>he'd been very specific about what he wanted, and then

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<v Speaker 2>Blake had returned with something completely different and sort of

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<v Speaker 2>explained that actually what the Poe I genius wanted was

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<v Speaker 2>for him to do this work, not what you've asked for.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we don't get Blake's response to this, so

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<v Speaker 2>we don't get the response to this letter. But then

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<v Speaker 2>we get Blake's next letter, which sort of begins with, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry if I've made you angry, but and then

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<v Speaker 2>he goes on to explain to this guy why he's

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<v Speaker 2>wrong about everything and why his perspective on life is

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<v Speaker 2>just it's just so flawed. And then at the end

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<v Speaker 2>he sort of asked for twelve guineas for the work,

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<v Speaker 2>and obviously he never got it. He was That seems

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<v Speaker 2>to encapsulate a lot about William Blake. He was stubborn,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was driven, but he had utter belief in

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<v Speaker 2>his visions and his work and his own.

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<v Speaker 1>Like a self confidence like his whole life, which is

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<v Speaker 1>very strange without having that real public approbrium or fame

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<v Speaker 1>until after he passed away and went eighteen twenty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And he's such an interesting figure. And I think you

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<v Speaker 1>really did an excellent job in really trying to take

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<v Speaker 1>apart this fascinating imagine it to character and how he

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<v Speaker 1>saw the world. Can you kind of talk to the

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<v Speaker 1>audience maybe about how William Brake Blake perceived the outside world,

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<v Speaker 1>which is very different than the rationalist and materialist.

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<v Speaker 3>View, absolutely, and at its heart, I think there is

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<v Speaker 3>quite a simple, subtle difference to how his peers and

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<v Speaker 3>indeed most of Western educated society saw the world, which is,

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<v Speaker 3>for Blake, the spiritual.

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<v Speaker 2>World, the immaterial of God's heaven and Hell, demons and

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<v Speaker 2>angels and things like that. We're all internal, there are

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<v Speaker 2>internal states. As he wrote, man forgot that all deities

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<v Speaker 2>reside in the human breast. And it's a perspective that

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<v Speaker 2>is very sort of interesting and useful in more secular

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<v Speaker 2>times now, in the secular twenty first century, because few

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<v Speaker 2>people now genuinely believe that, say, Hell exists, that it's

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<v Speaker 2>a place, a physical place that's somewhere some distance away,

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<v Speaker 2>that you might be sent to at some point. Not

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people genuinely believe that, but most people

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<v Speaker 2>have probably met someone who at some point in their

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<v Speaker 2>life has been living in Hell. And when you start

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<v Speaker 2>to see hell as an internal state, that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>raises the possibility of someone living in paradise like Blake,

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<v Speaker 2>said he was towards the end of his life. Certainly

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<v Speaker 2>that suddenly becomes possible, and it very much rescues almost,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, centuries of theology into something relevant, the idea

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<v Speaker 2>of yourself having a soul, your sense of a soul.

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<v Speaker 2>Many materialistically minded, sort of scientifically thinking people will just

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<v Speaker 2>dismiss the idea outright. But the quality of your life,

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<v Speaker 2>your one brief life as we go around this rock, however,

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<v Speaker 2>many times, is of immense importance and immense value, and

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<v Speaker 2>it is something you do need to look after. So

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<v Speaker 2>that because and this, this notion that the the immaterial

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<v Speaker 2>is internal comes specifically from the Greeks, from from Greek philosophy,

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<v Speaker 2>from the Pythagoreans originally, but then Plato specifically had this

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<v Speaker 2>idea of forms, where like there was this idealized version

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<v Speaker 2>of chair somewhere off in this idealized sort of space,

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<v Speaker 2>and that all that was was away from you, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was it was you couldn't reach it, you sort

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<v Speaker 2>of couldn't get to it. And this idea that the

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<v Speaker 2>immaterial was away it's very different to say Indian thought

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<v Speaker 2>of vedict philosophy. It's very different to ancient British mythology,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was it was an aspect of Greek thought

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<v Speaker 2>that the early Christian Church sort of ran with because

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<v Speaker 2>it opened the way to their religion being new universal.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a universal aspect to it, and so that became

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<v Speaker 2>embedded in the university system. And this this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>the spiritual is away from you, is a distance, is external.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so deep in the foundation of Western thought that

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<v Speaker 2>we never really think about it, and we never really

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<v Speaker 2>and if you can't see it, you know you can't

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<v Speaker 2>question it, so you just accept it. And that small

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<v Speaker 2>difference is really the key to seeing how Blake understands

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<v Speaker 2>the world, understood the world, and why that was so

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<v Speaker 2>so radically different.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean really unique kind of looks. And even

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<v Speaker 1>you brought up his religion, he's I mean, you say

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<v Speaker 1>in the book he thought of himself as a Christian,

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<v Speaker 1>but he would not I think you've been saying the

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<v Speaker 1>book modern Christians would not recognize his outlook. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that? How that outlook formulated in this Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's based on what his definition of suppose christ

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<v Speaker 2>consciousness is the modern term would be, which he completely

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<v Speaker 2>associated with creativity, with the imagination, the imagination was divine.

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<v Speaker 2>The imagination just poured through him. It was if it

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<v Speaker 2>was something new entering the world from elsewhere. It was,

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<v Speaker 2>it was. It was utterly powerful. There's a conversation that

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<v Speaker 2>was recorded. He met a guy called Crab Robinson at

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<v Speaker 2>a party towards the end of his life, and this

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<v Speaker 2>guy was questioning him and asked him about the divinity

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<v Speaker 2>of Jesus, and he said, oh, yes, Jesus, he is

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<v Speaker 2>the only God, and so am I, and so are you.

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<v Speaker 2>And this guy just couldn't understand what on earth he

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to say, because it was the idea was

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<v Speaker 2>so outside of you know, eighteenth central or nineteenth century

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<v Speaker 2>thought that it just made no sense, and he wrote

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<v Speaker 2>it down in his dawn. We still have it. But

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<v Speaker 2>it's when you get to know Blake you realize that

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<v Speaker 2>for him, the divinity of Jesus, which he was, he

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<v Speaker 2>was utterly important to him. You know. He loved the

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<v Speaker 2>Bible and the the sort of an entirely inspad, creative

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<v Speaker 2>and wonderful sort of text was U was an artistic thing,

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<v Speaker 2>was a creative thing. He would he talked about a

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<v Speaker 2>man who is not a painter and an architect, an

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<v Speaker 2>artist or anything like this is not a Christian The

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<v Speaker 2>two to to create, to channel that sort of divine

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<v Speaker 2>force through his mind something new for him. That was

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<v Speaker 2>the heart of Christianity was as he sort of defined it. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's very different to you know, what your local church

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<v Speaker 2>may may say.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you talk about one of the fascinating things. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know, but I'm not surprised when I read it

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<v Speaker 1>in your book, was the influence about Swedenborg? Like, can

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<v Speaker 1>you touch a little bit on that?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? Well for people who don't know. Emmanuel Swedenborg was

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<v Speaker 2>a Swedish mystic eighteenth century mystic who'd for most of

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<v Speaker 2>his life been a very respectable, very wealthy, a sort

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<v Speaker 2>of proto engineer. I guess he was. He was in

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<v Speaker 2>charge of Swedish minds, and he wrote lots of books

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<v Speaker 2>about mineralogy and and and and things like that. He

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<v Speaker 2>was very materially minded up and past his middle age,

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<v Speaker 2>at which point he started to have his dreams just

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<v Speaker 2>started to get richer and richer and richer, until they

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly overwhelmed him and overwhelmed his life, and he found himself,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as a visionary sort of traveling to heaven

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<v Speaker 2>and hell and alien worlds and meeting angels and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that, and he wrote all these these books about

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<v Speaker 2>what happened to him, Heaven and Hell being the most

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<v Speaker 2>most well known, I think. And you know, there's lots

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<v Speaker 2>of great stories about about Swedenburg being asked question. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>there was the Queen of Sweden. Her brother had died,

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<v Speaker 2>and so she said to him, you know, could you

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<v Speaker 2>ask my brother on the other side about this letter

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<v Speaker 2>I sent to him? And he came back the next

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<v Speaker 2>day and he said, yes, I spoke to your brother

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<v Speaker 2>and he and then Swedenborg whispered something into the Queen's ear,

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<v Speaker 2>and no one knows what it was, but all the

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<v Speaker 2>courtiers around heard it, and she was going, No one

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<v Speaker 2>but God knows the secret. There's all these sort of lovely,

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<v Speaker 2>little sort of spiritualist tales associated with Swedenborg. And there

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<v Speaker 2>was an attempt to build what they called the New Church,

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<v Speaker 2>a religion based on his books in Blake's time, and

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<v Speaker 2>he was very interested in it. And because it was

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<v Speaker 2>there were both vision reason there's a lot of overlap.

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<v Speaker 2>But as he as he read deep in deeper into

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<v Speaker 2>Swedenburgh's work, he began to see a lot of things

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<v Speaker 2>that he disagreed with, and so he wrote this extraordinary

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<v Speaker 2>illuminated book called The Marriage of Heaven and Hell in

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<v Speaker 2>contrast to Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, which is really a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of a literary spat. This was him explaining

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<v Speaker 2>why Swedenburg was wrong. And it's it's so brilliant that

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<v Speaker 2>he did, because it's one of the clearest statements of

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<v Speaker 2>how Blake saw the world and and how and what

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<v Speaker 2>Blake's metaphysics and theology was. Yeah, so's It was definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a massive influence, but one that the the the younger

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<v Speaker 2>pupil as it were, turned against and and and surpassed,

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<v Speaker 2>I think.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean it shows also how complex like he

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<v Speaker 1>You right, there's a theme in your book of this

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<v Speaker 1>uniting of kind of differences. So oppositions are important in

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<v Speaker 1>Blake's worldview. But can you talk about how it's very

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<v Speaker 1>how complex Blake and unique he was, and he would

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<v Speaker 1>use these kind of personages us in lows or to

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<v Speaker 1>encapsulate concepts for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he very quickly as a writer moved away

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<v Speaker 2>from I guess the established mythologies that most writers used

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, which was Biblical or Greek myths, those

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<v Speaker 2>sort of figures that we used a lot, and he

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<v Speaker 2>basically created is in his own system. I must create

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<v Speaker 2>a system, or be enslaved by another man is another

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<v Speaker 2>man's is what he wrote. Uh. And he came up

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<v Speaker 2>with all these weird and wonderful sort of mythological characters,

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<v Speaker 2>all of which are aspects of us, the aspects of

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<v Speaker 2>our mind. And he called them. There was four in

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<v Speaker 2>particular that he called the zoas the Forzo was just

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<v Speaker 2>the title of one of his unfinished works.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And they represented the rational side of our mind, the creative,

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<v Speaker 2>the physical, the emotional, and a lot of what his

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<v Speaker 2>writings were about were putting these figures in different combinations

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<v Speaker 2>and seeing how they clashed, and seeing the dynamics and

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<v Speaker 2>the the energies and and the grief that they caused

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<v Speaker 2>from being placed in different sort of positions. And we

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<v Speaker 2>can from now we sort of see that as all

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of proto psychology. He's he's sort of trying

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<v Speaker 2>to grasp how the mind works. And it was it

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<v Speaker 2>was really quite useful and profound. If you look at

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<v Speaker 2>when he's writing about revolution, you know, he has this

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<v Speaker 2>character called Orc, who's the Who's the spirit? Of revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>But he he understands this character on a far sort

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<v Speaker 2>of richer and deeper level than a lot of specifically

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<v Speaker 2>the Romantic writers and Romantic poets at the time, they

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<v Speaker 2>were all sort of you know, William Wordsworth was at

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<v Speaker 2>the early days of the French Revolution, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>blicited to be alive and to be young is very heaven.

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<v Speaker 2>They just saw it was this wonderful thing. And when

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<v Speaker 2>when the reign of Terror came afterwards, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>blood was washing through the streets of Paris, they couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>really it didn't fit in their will toy, They couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>really grasp it. Blake's understanding of a revolution, revolution, of

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<v Speaker 2>the desire of revolution, the spirit of revolution was so

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<v Speaker 2>much more richer that that that it just, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it fitted that what was happening in Paris far far

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<v Speaker 2>better and gave him a far clearer understanding of of

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<v Speaker 2>of human imagination.

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<v Speaker 1>And he, I mean, for somebody who wasn't really well

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<v Speaker 1>known in his life, he was aware of different ideas

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<v Speaker 1>the revolution Newton, so he was kind of had a

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<v Speaker 1>but he didn't totally agree. Can you talk about kind

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<v Speaker 1>of his relationship with Newtonian his a Towny and so

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<v Speaker 1>he's kind of was like a critic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. I Mean the thing with Blake was he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't sent to school as a child. He was just

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<v Speaker 2>sort of free to sort of play and explore and wonder.

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<v Speaker 2>But as an adult guard he read everything he was

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he from from the evidence of his works,

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<v Speaker 2>he was clearly very very well read and deeply informed on,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, on certain subjects. And this was the Age

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<v Speaker 2>of Enlightenment really, and the general gist of the Age

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<v Speaker 2>of Enlightenment was people saying, you know, previously in the

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<v Speaker 2>medieval world, you know, faith was primary, that was the

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<v Speaker 2>that was the thing faith, and the Age of Enlightenment

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<v Speaker 2>was saying, well, hang on, maybe maybe it's not faith.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's reason. Maybe reasons the thing. Maybe that's the

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<v Speaker 2>the the primary focus. And for Blake, you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>had no problems with this sort of questioning of faith.

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<v Speaker 2>But for him, reason was just such a small part

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<v Speaker 2>art of what the mind was capable of that to

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<v Speaker 2>focus on that was to miss the point. And there

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<v Speaker 2>this character called Eurzone, which is one of the Zoo's

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<v Speaker 2>I was talking about it was our rational side. He's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of blind to the fact that he's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>creating his own reality tunnel, to use a Timothy Leary phrase,

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<v Speaker 2>and he sort of believes it to be reality. He

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<v Speaker 2>believes the model of reality that he's constructing in his

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<v Speaker 2>mind is the universe, and can't see outside of of

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<v Speaker 2>this particular, this particular model. And and you see, you

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<v Speaker 2>see a lot of Blake's art work, there will be

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<v Speaker 2>a figure with compasses that make, you know, focusing on

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<v Speaker 2>on a piece of paper rationally making a measured sort

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<v Speaker 2>of circle, but around them will just be this this,

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<v Speaker 2>this glorious formless void, or this giant red sun, or

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<v Speaker 2>or this sort of ange world. And who's so focused

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<v Speaker 2>on his rationality is just blind to it. He just

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<v Speaker 2>cannot see it. And it's this this, it's the important

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<v Speaker 2>this blind spot that our rationale mind has. We you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we often insist to ourselves that we're rational, even when

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<v Speaker 2>we're just rationalizing. It's it's something you really, it really.

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<v Speaker 2>It comes into a lot of my books, again mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>in Timothy Leary, whose whose concept of reality channels was

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<v Speaker 2>something picked up by Robert Anton Wilson, and he talks

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<v Speaker 2>brilliantly about them in all all his books. And Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Anton Wilson is a figure who's in my k Left

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<v Speaker 2>book and various other things. It's all about trying to

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<v Speaker 2>see your blind spot, trying to not believe your own bs,

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<v Speaker 2>not believe your own belief systems. As as Wilson would

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<v Speaker 2>would put it, this is all central to this eighteenth century,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, romantic poet. It's all all there in the

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<v Speaker 2>work of Blake.

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<v Speaker 1>No it's really remarkable, and I think that it was

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<v Speaker 1>interesting you in your book you talk about the statue

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<v Speaker 1>of Newton in front of the British Library holding the compass.

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<v Speaker 1>But maybe some people may not perceive that that was

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<v Speaker 1>actually a critique by Blake, not a inconium or some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of something where he's really admiring Newton as much.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely, but I mean in the same painting he's painted

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<v Speaker 2>Newton like it was this idealized physique of a Greek

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<v Speaker 2>god with blonde hair and this naked body. So he's

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<v Speaker 2>not just mocking Newton. He's not just you know, he's

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<v Speaker 2>he's accepting that Newton was this great important figure in

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<v Speaker 2>world history. It's you mentioned the countries earlier, the the

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<v Speaker 2>importance of opposites. This is central. This is absolutely central

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<v Speaker 2>to Blake the that without countries there is there is

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<v Speaker 2>no progression, the idea that you know, he he would

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<v Speaker 2>write about innocence, but he would also write about experience,

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<v Speaker 2>and he wouldn't claim that one was better one was important.

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<v Speaker 2>You know his book that I mentioned earlier, the Marriage

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<v Speaker 2>of Heaven and Hell. Uh, he's having he wants heaven

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<v Speaker 2>and he wants hell. And this is very much how

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<v Speaker 2>our mind constructs it's sense of the world as a baby.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got this completely blank slate of a mind and everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Then there's just this cozy, chaotic sort of blur outside

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<v Speaker 2>and we slowly sort of divide up. Oh, actually there's

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<v Speaker 2>darkness and there's light, okay, and there's there's warm and

390
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<v Speaker 2>there's cold, and there's you know, there's mummy and not mummy.

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<v Speaker 2>And he so used these these opposites to define uh

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<v Speaker 2>and uh and and understand and understand the world. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is what if you look at the book of Genesis, Uh, this,

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<v Speaker 2>this is what God's doing at the at the very start,

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<v Speaker 2>He's there's this terrible void and he divides the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the water from the land and the light from the dark.

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<v Speaker 2>And over the over seven days, uh and it's always

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<v Speaker 2>as he entered, as he's creating the world. The idea

399
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.359
<v Speaker 2>is here is God absolutely creating the world. If you

400
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<v Speaker 2>look at carefully what he's doing, everything is out there.

401
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.799
<v Speaker 2>He's just labeling it. He's just forming a mental schema

402
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.960
<v Speaker 2>to understand it all. He's just dividing things up in

403
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:22.319
<v Speaker 2>a a in a way that he can grasp. So. Yeah,

404
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:28.440
<v Speaker 2>so the the the use of opposites is utterly integral

405
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<v Speaker 2>to Blake's thinking because you simply can't have hot without cold,

406
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<v Speaker 2>or you know, one side of the coin at the other.

407
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<v Speaker 2>We sort of need all those and a tendency to go, well,

408
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<v Speaker 2>that's a good thing. I'll just look at the good

409
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<v Speaker 2>thing and ignore the bad thing. Uh, is not a

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<v Speaker 2>trap he fell into, I guess right.

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<v Speaker 1>And I mean his his his poetry was with people.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, think you made an interesting point in your

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<v Speaker 1>book you're talking about bloom Is his biography. Who's like

414
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<v Speaker 1>this is at the time, like we're still trying to

415
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<v Speaker 1>unpack full meanings from what he was writing.

416
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<v Speaker 2>Certainly the later stuff, yeah, absolutely, the latest stuff. I mean,

417
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<v Speaker 2>there's his longest work, which he himself considered his masterpiece,

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<v Speaker 2>is a thing called Jerusalem the Emanation of the Giant Albion,

419
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:30.759
<v Speaker 2>and it's it's it feels like it's written from the

420
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 2>perspective of outside of being outside time and space and

421
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:39.920
<v Speaker 2>looking in you know, things happen in the in the plot.

422
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.279
<v Speaker 2>It's very simple plot, but you know, things what happens

423
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:47.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of has already happened, and he's going to happen

424
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:55.240
<v Speaker 2>and is happening now. It's it's very psychedelic, definitely, you know,

425
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.039
<v Speaker 2>and and reading it is quite a shock. He's very

426
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 2>it's like he's trying to express what his higher states

427
00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.799
<v Speaker 2>of consciousness, as higher visions were, and you know, it's

428
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:15.440
<v Speaker 2>baffled many many poetry student or English language major in

429
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.599
<v Speaker 2>the past couple of centuries. But his earlier stuff, the

430
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:22.640
<v Speaker 2>songs of Innocence and I've Experience, you know, are particularly

431
00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:27.839
<v Speaker 2>well known, and poems like Tiger Tiger they're you know,

432
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:32.359
<v Speaker 2>very famous. And here in England there isn't actually an

433
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:36.519
<v Speaker 2>official English national anthem, but everyone in England knows that

434
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the Him Jerusalem is on national anthem. You know, it's

435
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:42.440
<v Speaker 2>just it's just been decided by the people. It's amazing, yeah,

436
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:46.799
<v Speaker 2>which is his words from the preface to a poem

437
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:47.400
<v Speaker 2>called Milton.

438
00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:53.400
<v Speaker 1>But that also goes back to Albion, and you're, like

439
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 1>his concept of the early isles of Britain and things

440
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:01.319
<v Speaker 1>like that. So it's very profound in his understanding even

441
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:04.359
<v Speaker 1>at that time supposedly like who walked these shores? Who

442
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.319
<v Speaker 1>is this person? So even Albion is a symbol of that,

443
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.759
<v Speaker 1>right sure.

444
00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.200
<v Speaker 2>And in many ways he's like he's like Adam, He's

445
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.000
<v Speaker 2>like he's the first man, but he's also Jesus in

446
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.279
<v Speaker 2>that he has the light inside him, the spiritual light,

447
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:24.799
<v Speaker 2>the divine imagination, which, in Blake's view, we lost when

448
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.079
<v Speaker 2>we started, like you know, the Druids started measuring the

449
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.599
<v Speaker 2>stars and erecting the stone circles and building their altars

450
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:39.119
<v Speaker 2>and basically projecting a mental system out onto the universe

451
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.440
<v Speaker 2>to categorize it and rationalize it and to understand it.

452
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.839
<v Speaker 2>This he saw as the rise of this rational part

453
00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:50.359
<v Speaker 2>of our mind. People often refer to it as left brain.

454
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:53.880
<v Speaker 2>That can be a useful way to talk to it,

455
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:56.039
<v Speaker 2>even though we know that both parts of the brain

456
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>are responsible for all sorts of things. But what they

457
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.400
<v Speaker 2>mean when they talked about le brain is the sort

458
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:07.000
<v Speaker 2>of the rational modeling part of our mind that sort

459
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 2>of predicts how people will act and worries about the

460
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>future and frets about the past, and takes us away

461
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:21.400
<v Speaker 2>from the moment, the experience of existing in the present

462
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:29.160
<v Speaker 2>moments in the physical sort of sense, that of this

463
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:31.319
<v Speaker 2>is all more right, brain sort of sort of stuff.

464
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.799
<v Speaker 2>The joy of you know, I don't know, surfing, or

465
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>the joy of dancing, or the joy of just being

466
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know.

467
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 1>And he I mean, he spent all of his time

468
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.839
<v Speaker 1>in London. There was one brief Properia where he went south.

469
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.000
<v Speaker 1>I can't remember what city that was, but he was

470
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 1>also I didn't know that he was accused of sedition.

471
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Can you talk kind of about his how he took

472
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.119
<v Speaker 1>interest from the land and kind of his movements in

473
00:28:57.160 --> 00:28:57.519
<v Speaker 1>his life.

474
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure. I mean he moved down in the year

475
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.640
<v Speaker 2>eighteen hundred to the village of Felpham, which is next

476
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:09.000
<v Speaker 2>to a place called Bogner on the Sussex coast, and

477
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:13.359
<v Speaker 2>it started. I mean, his letters from the early years

478
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>were just just blissful and away from the you know,

479
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the dirt and fog of central London, he felt as

480
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:23.160
<v Speaker 2>he was more spiritually aware and it was it was,

481
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 2>it was a beautiful thing, but it turned he partly

482
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:32.200
<v Speaker 2>because he had a beef with his patron, partly because

483
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:35.640
<v Speaker 2>his wife's health wasn't liking the damp and things like that.

484
00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:39.240
<v Speaker 2>But there was an incident where there was a soldier

485
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.359
<v Speaker 2>in his garden. This was around the time then Napoleonic Wars,

486
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:45.559
<v Speaker 2>and England was paranoid that it was going to be

487
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.599
<v Speaker 2>invaded by revolutionary France, and so soldiers were sort of

488
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:53.359
<v Speaker 2>in camps all along the south coast of England and elsewhere,

489
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:58.279
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he sort of asked this soldier to leave,

490
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and the soldier gave him some grief, and Blake, who

491
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.039
<v Speaker 2>was a short man, just all got the arm of

492
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the soldier behind his back and forced him out of

493
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.400
<v Speaker 2>his garden and up the road and to the pub,

494
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.519
<v Speaker 2>the Fox in where he was billeted and in full

495
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:19.759
<v Speaker 2>view of everyone. Ah, and this soldier, a guy called Schofield,

496
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.880
<v Speaker 2>he claimed that Blake has hed been doing this, had

497
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:28.319
<v Speaker 2>been damning the king and all the king's soldiers and

498
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:33.319
<v Speaker 2>saying if Napoleon invades, then you know he will win

499
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.400
<v Speaker 2>the newer all run a newer. This was this was

500
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:40.640
<v Speaker 2>classed as seditious speak at the time. It was very

501
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.240
<v Speaker 2>sort of paranoid age because there being the American Revolution,

502
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:45.680
<v Speaker 2>the French Revolution, and the powers that be in England

503
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>was scared. They were really scared at that sort of

504
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:51.440
<v Speaker 2>that sort of point that it was a revolution, you know,

505
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.079
<v Speaker 2>a republican revolution would happen there. So he was he

506
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.720
<v Speaker 2>was tried for sedition, which could have led to the

507
00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:02.720
<v Speaker 2>death penalty. So he had this huge weight over him

508
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.599
<v Speaker 2>for a year or so as these things went through

509
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the court. Fortunately all the all the villagers in felp them,

510
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 2>they all gave evidence going, no, he didn't hear anything. No,

511
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:15.839
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he said that at all. No, that's

512
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:19.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure that the soldiers just making all that up

513
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:23.559
<v Speaker 2>and and he was acquitted. But what the soldier quoted

514
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.359
<v Speaker 2>him of saying is pretty much the sort of thing

515
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.759
<v Speaker 2>he would have said. It did fit very neatly with

516
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.279
<v Speaker 2>his thoughts. So it sort of seems likely that the

517
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:37.000
<v Speaker 2>local villagers liked Blake. They didn't like the soldiers, so

518
00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:39.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, they they were there for him when they

519
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.079
<v Speaker 2>when they need when he he was needed. Yeah, but

520
00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:47.319
<v Speaker 2>it was it was a period. It was around this

521
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:50.519
<v Speaker 2>sort of period that he went through a time of

522
00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:55.319
<v Speaker 2>of of bad mental health. We'd say now, and there

523
00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:57.519
<v Speaker 2>was there was there was paranoia, and there.

524
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Was he or something melancholy.

525
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was, there had been before, there had been

526
00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:06.720
<v Speaker 2>depression before he moved to phelp them. That does seem

527
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:11.319
<v Speaker 2>to be a slightly sort of manic than melancholy, sort

528
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.759
<v Speaker 2>of bipolar sort of switching. And he would fall out

529
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:20.880
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of contemporaries over matters that which the

530
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.640
<v Speaker 2>which the surviving evidence suggests that he was in the

531
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.960
<v Speaker 2>wrong and it was all in his head, you know,

532
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:29.359
<v Speaker 2>he was. He had he had a bad, bad sort

533
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.359
<v Speaker 2>of period. But fortunately he sort of came through that

534
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:34.680
<v Speaker 2>after writing things like Jerusalem, and the last years of

535
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:38.359
<v Speaker 2>his life he was a much you know, happiest sort

536
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>of person. But yeah, you know, trial for s edition.

537
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:41.119
<v Speaker 2>Can you know.

538
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Anybody? It is fascinating to think that only four copies

539
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 1>of Milton and five copies of Jerusalem were printed in

540
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.079
<v Speaker 1>his lifetime. And then Jerusalem was put to music right

541
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.599
<v Speaker 1>sometime in the twentieth century, and that's was that what

542
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:58.799
<v Speaker 1>made it more popular?

543
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just to confuse as the Jerusalem that the music

544
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:08.200
<v Speaker 2>is too is not from the his work Jerusalem of

545
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the that's that's that's just a confused matters, but it was.

546
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:15.400
<v Speaker 2>It was in the First World War. It was. It

547
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:19.759
<v Speaker 2>was put to music by Hubert Parry. H And I

548
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:23.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know how familiar American, if most of your listens

549
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>are American, how they would be to the him Jerusalem.

550
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 2>But it's great, it's it's it's it's a really beautiful,

551
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:38.440
<v Speaker 2>stirring piece of work. Uh. And he gave the Hubert Parry,

552
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:42.720
<v Speaker 2>he gave the copyright to the women's suffrage movement. So

553
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 2>it's always had this slightly sort of radical progressive feel

554
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 2>to it. But at the same time that's become the

555
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.400
<v Speaker 2>unofficial English national anthem. It talk. It talks of the

556
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.279
<v Speaker 2>the dark satanic mills of the Industrial Revolution, and it

557
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:05.480
<v Speaker 2>talks of the green and pleasant land of England. And it's. Yes,

558
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:06.880
<v Speaker 2>it's an amazing piece of work.

559
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:11.440
<v Speaker 1>I think that I've seen it when in Canterbury, people

560
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.679
<v Speaker 1>seeing it in church, you know, so I think some

561
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.280
<v Speaker 1>of this, so I'm somewhat annoying with that. But he

562
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:21.119
<v Speaker 1>died in a pauper's grave, and yeah, I think you

563
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.920
<v Speaker 1>show that. Like even to this moment, they had some

564
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.800
<v Speaker 1>showing where two hundred and fifty thousand tickets were sold

565
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:31.360
<v Speaker 1>to some showing up. So the modern is almost just

566
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.079
<v Speaker 1>like huge, hugely famous and influential.

567
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:39.440
<v Speaker 2>This was an exhibition at the Tate in London just

568
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:43.039
<v Speaker 2>just before it was just before the lockdown, and it

569
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:48.239
<v Speaker 2>was astonishing. It was astounding. They had room after room

570
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:51.800
<v Speaker 2>after room of so many pieces of his work had

571
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:54.320
<v Speaker 2>been collected and collated. This was looking at him as

572
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.960
<v Speaker 2>as a painter rather than as a poet or a writer.

573
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.679
<v Speaker 2>It was focused on his visual stuff. But still it

574
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.800
<v Speaker 2>was just overwhelming the amount of work that he did

575
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:08.159
<v Speaker 2>in his lifetime. It was just extraordinary. And to go

576
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:13.760
<v Speaker 2>from you know this, this pauper's burial in in bun

577
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.159
<v Speaker 2>Hill Fields, which is a dissenter's burial ground, which was

578
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.400
<v Speaker 2>then on the outskirts of London sort of. Bun Hill

579
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:23.000
<v Speaker 2>comes from bone Hill. It was where they unwanted dead were.

580
00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:30.719
<v Speaker 2>But two. Being celebrated to the extent he is in

581
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.760
<v Speaker 2>modern British culture is just extraordinary. But it's still the

582
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:41.840
<v Speaker 2>case that there's a feeling that people are drawn to Blake,

583
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:47.119
<v Speaker 2>but they find him, they don't understand him. A friend

584
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 2>of mine said to me recently, She goes, I don't

585
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:52.559
<v Speaker 2>understand Blake, but I know he's my boy. I know

586
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.400
<v Speaker 2>he's he's on my team. We're drawn to him, but

587
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.880
<v Speaker 2>getting getting grips with what he's trying to say can

588
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.480
<v Speaker 2>seem off putting to a lot of people. They may

589
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.000
<v Speaker 2>start to sort of google a few things and then

590
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:09.800
<v Speaker 2>fall into sort of an academic rabbit hole and not

591
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:13.320
<v Speaker 2>really have a framework to understand where these arguments sort

592
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.599
<v Speaker 2>of fit in. Or it's like it's like the it's

593
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:19.559
<v Speaker 2>like Blake is this big, glorious castle and they can't

594
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:23.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of find a way in there. And I've heard

595
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 2>this again and again for various different reasons, which is

596
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.960
<v Speaker 2>what this book was really written for. You know, It's

597
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 2>it's not it's not intended for people for academics who

598
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:38.119
<v Speaker 2>are roundly knowledgeable about Blake. It's for people who who

599
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.920
<v Speaker 2>maybe heard a poem or seeing an image and recognize

600
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:45.039
<v Speaker 2>that it's something, uh, something connects with them and they

601
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>want to know more, but they don't know how to

602
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.199
<v Speaker 2>sort of get into his into his world and understand

603
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 2>his mind view. This is it's like a ramp. It's

604
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.599
<v Speaker 2>a ramp into the giant castle of Blake.

605
00:36:56.360 --> 00:36:58.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I felt like, oh, well, I commend you

606
00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:00.440
<v Speaker 1>from writing it because I felt like, I got a

607
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:06.199
<v Speaker 1>much better understanding of this very imaginative, complex person after

608
00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:07.079
<v Speaker 1>finishing the book.

609
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:12.440
<v Speaker 2>So, h well, I hope you also got. Sorry, sorry, well,

610
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:17.840
<v Speaker 2>I hope you also got was a different understanding of

611
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.599
<v Speaker 2>imagination itself, of your own mind and how your own

612
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:30.199
<v Speaker 2>mind works, and how imagination differs from from person to

613
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:33.119
<v Speaker 2>person and can be this overwhelming thing that sort of

614
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:39.159
<v Speaker 2>takes takes people over, because that's I think that's important

615
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:42.360
<v Speaker 2>for understanding Blake. But it's it's not just Blake, It's

616
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.360
<v Speaker 2>about all of us. It's about all.

617
00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Of our minds, and it just kind of felt like

618
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:49.519
<v Speaker 1>you it was a mind expanding and understanding of the

619
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.840
<v Speaker 1>capacity of a human mind. Somebody is talented as Blake

620
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 1>and had it definitely had a genius, but also a mystic.

621
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 1>So really a fascinating this.

622
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:00.679
<v Speaker 2>This is the thing with I mean, people have been

623
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:03.760
<v Speaker 2>having visionary experiences throughout all of history and in all

624
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:07.599
<v Speaker 2>of culture, and frustrating things about them is they're just

625
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:11.599
<v Speaker 2>ineffable nature. These people come back and they just can't

626
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:18.519
<v Speaker 2>explain to other people what they've experienced. But you get Blake,

627
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:23.280
<v Speaker 2>who's so talented as a writer and so talented as

628
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:28.880
<v Speaker 2>an artist, his work. When you see it, you do go, oh, okay,

629
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.239
<v Speaker 2>that's okay. It's real, isn't it. It is real. The

630
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 2>experiences that he's talking about, these have definitely happened. His

631
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>work is just utterly convincing. You know, there's there's there's

632
00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:42.360
<v Speaker 2>no there's no sense that it's wish fulfillment or he's

633
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:45.000
<v Speaker 2>just making it up or something like that. He's seen

634
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:48.039
<v Speaker 2>those things, you know, he's he's his mind has been

635
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:54.159
<v Speaker 2>in that's expansive. And yeah, I think that's why he's

636
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:55.039
<v Speaker 2>very important so well.

637
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:57.960
<v Speaker 1>And there's so much of that visuals that are interspersed

638
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 1>through our culture even in the States. The Great Dragon

639
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and the Woman Clothed with the Sun is in films,

640
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:07.039
<v Speaker 1>and we've seen pieces of Blake still to this day's

641
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.960
<v Speaker 1>and then the poem's Tiger and Jerusalem is pretty incredible

642
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:12.320
<v Speaker 1>what what he.

643
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Achieved, and many little phrases such as the mind for

644
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Germanicals that sort of creep out of his poems and

645
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:26.400
<v Speaker 2>into sort of general acceptance and general sort of knowledge. Yeah,

646
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:29.440
<v Speaker 2>he's I mean, I would recommend to anyone you know,

647
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.679
<v Speaker 2>just that if you get into Blake, your life will

648
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.400
<v Speaker 2>be richer and you will have a better quality of

649
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:40.519
<v Speaker 2>life from having from having Blake in there, and there

650
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.239
<v Speaker 2>really is sort of like no time like the present.

651
00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, the longer you sort of put it off,

652
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.760
<v Speaker 2>you're just you'll just be frustrated that you didn't do

653
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:53.159
<v Speaker 2>it earlier, because it's his work is so rewarding on

654
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 2>just a very human level, on on what it says

655
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.320
<v Speaker 2>about human the way the way it sort of elevates humanity.

656
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's the when I was saying earlier about

657
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the notion that the gods and everything were internal. A

658
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 2>lot of people might think, well that the values them,

659
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 2>but reading Blake, that's really not what you get. What

660
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:21.199
<v Speaker 2>it does is just really elevates, you know, the human

661
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.360
<v Speaker 2>potential and what humanity can be and can experience.

662
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:28.079
<v Speaker 1>Agreed, well, excellent book. I highly recommend this book. Where

663
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:30.480
<v Speaker 1>can people find it? It's on amazons. Did you have

664
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:32.440
<v Speaker 1>a website or is there a way people can reach

665
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:32.679
<v Speaker 1>out to?

666
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:37.719
<v Speaker 2>Sure, my website is John Higgs dot com. But yes

667
00:40:37.719 --> 00:40:40.079
<v Speaker 2>they can. They can find it on Amazon. William Blake

668
00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Versus the World. I mean, it's only published in the

669
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:45.199
<v Speaker 2>UK certainly at the moment. Hopefully we'll find it American

670
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:48.639
<v Speaker 2>publisher one day. Or sooner, sooner rather than later, but

671
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:50.880
<v Speaker 2>you can. You can certainly get the UK version from

672
00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Amazon or your your bookshop of choice.

673
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Did you have an audio version? Are you intending to

674
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 1>do an audio version?

675
00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there is an audio version, but because of the

676
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.480
<v Speaker 2>way these things work, if you're not in the UK,

677
00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:03.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it allows you to buy it.

678
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, well there's if you have a VPN you might

679
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:12.679
<v Speaker 1>have some success. And that's not a bad idea anyway,

680
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:16.679
<v Speaker 1>great book, great conversation, Thanks so much for joining me again.

681
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:19.079
<v Speaker 1>The title of the book is William Blake Blake Verse

682
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.519
<v Speaker 1>the World, published May twenty one by author John Higgs.

683
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:26.679
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much. Thanks William, still there.