WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:07.599 The Team House with your hosts Jack Murphy and David Park. 2 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:14.560 Welcome to episode three hundred and eighty two of The 3 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:17.760 Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with tonight's guest on 4 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:21.879 the show, varpis Dessa Pereira. He served as a Marine 5 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:25.559 Corps infantry officer and then jumped over to the Army 6 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.839 and served in a Yususaki unit, multiple deployments to Iraq, 7 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:35.439 Middle East Africa, and ended up getting out of the 8 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:38.759 Marine Corps and is now a clinical psychologist working at 9 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:43.560 Veterans Affairs, obviously working with veterans and veterans issues. So 10 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:45.759 we're going to talk about the whole spectrum of all 11 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.840 of that in the interview. Varpus, thanks for joining. 12 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.000 Us, Thank you for having me. 13 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:54.840 I should also mention upfront two. He is also the 14 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:58.600 author of the book Warrior Withdrawal. It's a well you 15 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:01.200 tell the audience for what's your book about. 16 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.400 So the book is about this cluster of symptoms that 17 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.079 I found that sort of in between this idea of 18 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:13.000 adjustment disorder and post traumatic stress disorder. I haven't gone 19 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.400 through school and looking at the diagnostics and statistics manual 20 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.480 kind of what happened to me is like patient zero 21 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:21.920 of getting out of the military. Didn't really fit in 22 00:01:21.920 --> 00:01:26.319 either of those diagnoses. The cluster of symptoms for PTSD. 23 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.040 One of them is avoidance. I didn't have avoidance of combat. 24 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.159 I sought out combat. I had an affinity for being 25 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:37.439 with veterans and being in the military, so that would 26 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.879 be a disqualifier for PTSD. And then the other thing 27 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:42.799 that could be described, you know, explain to symptoms would 28 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:46.480 be adjustment disorder that has a time limit though of 29 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.959 about six months, and so ten years later, I'm still 30 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:52.840 struggling with wanting to be back on the front line. 31 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.159 So it's like that can't be it either, So what 32 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.640 is the what is happening here? And ultimately the closest 33 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:05.959 thing that I could find was substance abuse disorder, And 34 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:09.840 so there's something about being a warrior that feels like 35 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.120 you're addicted to something and so that when you get 36 00:02:13.159 --> 00:02:14.520 out you experience. 37 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:15.080 The withdrawal symptoms. 38 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:19.120 So the book is about my experiences, the multiple tours 39 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.159 that I did getting out, the struggles of getting out 40 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.199 and then going through school and working at the VA 41 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:29.560 and sort of finding a way to help veterans recognize 42 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:33.080 what has happened to them, the training that they went through, 43 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:36.479 that they get spit out into the world with no untraining, 44 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.520 and then how do you manage it. 45 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:43.879 Well, we'll get a little bit more in depth on 46 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:47.159 that further along in the show, but I'm going to 47 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:49.319 start you off at the beginning. You mentioned to me 48 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.520 before the show. Your first name is Lithuanian, your last 49 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.120 name is Portuguese. Tell us about the origin story of varpis. 50 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:59.439 Where did you grow up, How did you grow up, 51 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.159 How did that eventually take you towards the Marine Corps. 52 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:07.360 Yeah, so I guess both of my parents are immigrants, 53 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:12.360 both naturalized American citizens. Mom is Lithuanian by way of Canada. 54 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.879 Her parents fled the Communists and so we're stuck in 55 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.039 between the Nazis and Communists during World War two. 56 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.000 Displaced Persons camp ended up in Canada, and then it 57 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:23.719 moved down. 58 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:28.240 To Chicago with this big Lithuanian population, where she met 59 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.240 My dad, who was born and raised in Rio, went 60 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.719 to school in Rio, became a physician, and then moved 61 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:39.199 to Chicago seeking basically freedom. Like he talks about, how 62 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.800 we don't understand this in the US. The first time 63 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.599 he could vote, there's only one person he could vote 64 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:47.319 for because it was a dictatorship. So he's like, I'm 65 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:50.439 out of here. He showed up in Chicago. My parents 66 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:54.680 met ended up moving to the East Coast, Massachusetts, big 67 00:03:54.719 --> 00:04:01.400 Portuguese population there. They needed a Portuguese speaking doctors predominantly 68 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.680 where I grew up is in Massachusetts, speaking Lithuanian to 69 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:09.199 mom where she used to dad, and sort of thinking 70 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.639 that that was everybody's life, house life, Like we just 71 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.439 used English in school and then we all went home 72 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:17.399 and spoke in our native tongues. 73 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:18.879 Yeah. 74 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:20.360 I think it was in third grade when I realized 75 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:25.279 that's not that's not the case in everybody's house. So 76 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:28.600 the last name Brazilian Portuguese first name. It is a 77 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.279 Lithuanian word. It is not a common name. It's not 78 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.120 like Joe. It's it's literally translated to large bell. 79 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:40.279 And so I think I've joked about it before. 80 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:44.519 Like my mom was Gwyneth Paltrow before Gwyneth Paltrow was 81 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:48.360 naming her kid Apple, So she named her second son 82 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:49.480 Large church Bell. 83 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.160 Basically, well what did the first one get? 84 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.079 So he's got my same his dad's name, sorry, our 85 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.639 dad's name, and our dad has a same name as 86 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.199 his dad's name, which is not much better because it's 87 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:07.040 most So he's the third yr. So he's sort of 88 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:12.920 the third except he also grabbed my mom's dad's name 89 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.040 for his middle name, so he's not technically the third. 90 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:17.519 But monsieur means article of pain. 91 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:22.680 In Amazon Indian. Wow, so so we go, so. 92 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:26.399 We go like article pain large bell and then my 93 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:31.240 two younger brothers, Skydris, which is like sort of made 94 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:35.399 up ish name of like clear, and then my youngest brother. 95 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:37.120 They were sure he was going to be born a girl, 96 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.800 so they only chose the name Lima, which is actually 97 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:43.160 a common girl's name for luck. But then when he 98 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.040 popped out a boy, they're like, okay, well he can't 99 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:48.600 have a female name, so they gave him the masculine 100 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.560 version of Lima, which is Limas, which you can imagine 101 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:57.600 basically means male fairy. 102 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:02.160 Okay, so your parents maybe need a little work on 103 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.120 the naming conventions for the children. 104 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:08.519 Yes, my mom was not a Johnny Cash fan. A 105 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.600 boy named Sue is not in her uh not in 106 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:17.360 her eight track player, so I definitely tried not to 107 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:18.600 do that with my own kids. 108 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:24.519 So you grow up speaking Lithuanian and Portuguese growing up 109 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:29.120 in Massachusetts. What piqued your interest in military service? How 110 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:29.879 did that come about? 111 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.319 So? I was actually born in Maryland. 112 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:39.240 At Thethesida Naval Hospital because my dad, in order to 113 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:45.079 try to fast track his citizenship, took UH commission, got 114 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:49.759 commissioned in the reserves as an Army physician. So he's 115 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:53.800 immediately promoted a major as an internal medicine infectious disease specialist, 116 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.800 and so he was sent out to UH for Dietrich. 117 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:02.480 And so my dad was in the Army. 118 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:06.360 I don't know why, but I had an affinity for 119 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:08.879 the Navy, and then through high school I was pretty 120 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.319 sure I was going to go to Annapolis. It's really 121 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:14.319 the only place I applied. And then the senior year 122 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.399 I had to have surgery, and so I was dequed 123 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:21.920 for Annapolis. And then I got a scholarship to Boston University. Sod, 124 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.759 all right, I'll do that, and then I'll go to Annapolis. 125 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:30.920 You know, after the year, i'll reapply. But BU had 126 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.759 an RTC program and so they gave me the Navy 127 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.720 RTC scholarship. And after a year there in Boston, I 128 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:40.279 was like, I have three years of college. Now like 129 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.199 a year's worth of AP credits or two years worth 130 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.519 of AP credits plus the year's worth of actual college. 131 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:47.720 I'm not going to go back. 132 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:51.120 And restart at zero at the academy because all roads 133 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:57.879 lead to for me Aquantico as a marine. So at 134 00:07:57.879 --> 00:07:59.360 that point I was like, right, I'll just stay here. 135 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.519 So you commissioned through ROTC. 136 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.680 I did, and just like every other boy, basically you 137 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:12.360 know g I Joe's camouflage, I did it. All square guns, 138 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.680 water guns, Capture the Flag was my favorite thing to play. 139 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.480 And through grade school and high school playing three sports, 140 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.480 you know, sport every season, and then continue to do 141 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:24.480 that through college. 142 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.639 And so you came into the Marines nineteen ninety nine, 143 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:32.240 you got commissioned, and now you have to go through 144 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.840 Infantry Basic Infantry Officer course, what do the Marines call it? 145 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:39.759 Yeah, So we do something a little bit different. 146 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:47.600 We have Officer Candidate School and then all Marine officers 147 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:51.519 go then through the basic school. So independent of your 148 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:54.879 commissioning program, whether it's the academy or OCS, everybody goes 149 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.720 to the basic school and everybody shows up with no mos. 150 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:03.240 So officers go to Quantico. Nobody has an mos some 151 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.639 people have flight contracts. But then over the course of 152 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:10.200 those six months, depending on how well you do, you 153 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:14.799 get ranked from one to whatever it is, one hundred, 154 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.039 and then you select your MOSS. Now, in order to 155 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:26.039 ensure quality spread, they cut that hundred into thirds and 156 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.639 then disperse the mos is sort of equitably, which means 157 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.480 that in the if you're in the top third, you 158 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:32.919 need to be in the top of the top third 159 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.919 to get combat arms, and if you're in the bottom third, 160 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:42.120 usually it's the bottom guy, mister irrelevant usually gets infantry. 161 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.799 Yeah, I think the army does something similar so that 162 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.759 you don't end up with purely just dumb asses in 163 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:50.440 the infantry. Otherwise, I mean it's bad enough as it is. 164 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:54.600 I think what they try to do is they know 165 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:57.360 just about everybody wants to be in infantry combat arms, 166 00:09:57.399 --> 00:09:59.799 and then they don't want like your logistitions to be 167 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:02.519 the the lowest all of the lowest performers at the 168 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:05.159 basic school, or your logos, your supply guys, because then 169 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:09.159 things don't get done. As the general to say, you know, 170 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:15.039 we think logistics not tactics. Then from TBS I got 171 00:10:15.320 --> 00:10:18.519 I was high enough to choose Infantry. Then I went 172 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.679 to the Ifetry Officer course for about ten weeks, got 173 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:25.679 my orders to my first unit, so first time fifth 174 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.480 Marines out of Camp Pendleton, and linked up with them 175 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.399 as they're preparing to do a boat package. So I 176 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.440 went right away to Cornado for a month doing the 177 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.039 Scout swimmer school and then stayed there for probably another 178 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:41.000 month doing the small boat raids. 179 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.240 That's pretty cool. I mean, it must have been exactly 180 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:45.519 what you were looking for, right. 181 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:49.639 It was, And it was basically a row Schambau to 182 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:51.639 determine who was going to get to go be the 183 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:57.960 scout swimmer, and luckily I won. And I was only 184 00:10:58.039 --> 00:10:59.960 in the row Schambeau because I had already done my 185 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.559 the maximum swim call that you could still struggled with 186 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.679 the brick you know, part of the call for the 187 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.200 Scouts swim of course, So managed to do it. And 188 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.399 all of that boat rating stuff was to prepare us 189 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.559 for a deployment at the front end of two thousand 190 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:16.960 and one to Okinawa. 191 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:23.159 Did that Okinawa deployment materialize or did other things take Yeah? 192 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:25.039 No, no, no, so so two thousand and one, so 193 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:30.360 we deployed. We flew out January of one sort of 194 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.679 standard rotation. It's a thirty first Marine Expeditionary Unit sailed 195 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:39.799 around Australia EUO Jima and it was only a six 196 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:44.120 month tour. So we fly back around July of one 197 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.919 and then we're on our off cycle basically, so we're 198 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.799 looking at you in like Operation Bright Star, I think. 199 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:53.679 In Egypt SINAI. 200 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:58.720 Yeah, September eleventh happens, and then you know, everybody starts 201 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:02.240 to get think that things are going to change for me. 202 00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:08.320 They did because so here's the funny story. In two thousand, 203 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.960 two thousand, I was the youngest Marine officer in the 204 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.279 first Marine Division. So if you're not aware of how 205 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:19.440 we do our birthday balls, it's the oldest marine present 206 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:22.159 and the youngest marine present share the first piece of cake. 207 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:27.600 And of course we're marines, so everything has to be 208 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:33.480 done and rehearsed and practiced. So as the youngest officer present, 209 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:35.320 I had to go to the practices for the honor 210 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.600 guard to like practice eating the cake or at least 211 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.240 receiving it from the oldest marine present. 212 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.200 That put my name, so you can imagine that. 213 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.559 Plus my name got me skylined with the General staff 214 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.200 and so then when I came back. 215 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.080 When we came back from the deployment to Okinawa. 216 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.639 From Okinawa, the chief of Staff and the staff sect 217 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:00.440 we're already like, oh hey, that guy, good to go, 218 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.120 you know, he's a first lieutenant, Like we were to 219 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:02.720 pull him up. 220 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.480 And I show up to my interview with the. 221 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:08.840 General General Cowdrey and the staff sex like, and the 222 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:10.519 General was also like, do you want to be here? 223 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:11.799 And I'm like, hell no. 224 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:13.679 You know, I want to go to Ricon, you know, 225 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:15.759 And he's like, oh, well, you know, it's exactly who 226 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.519 you want here. You want the guys that don't want 227 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.840 to be here, because if you wanted to be here, 228 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:22.519 that would be a problem. 229 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.519 Reverse psychologies bullshit, they got you. 230 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:27.679 Yeah. 231 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.759 So fortunately for me though, that ended up being a 232 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:34.399 second deployment because he's the assistant division commander and we 233 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:38.159 got flown to Kuwait for four or so months as 234 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:44.600 part of a a CJTF for consequence management. As far 235 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.159 as I understand it, I think we're sort of kind 236 00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:51.519 of trying to build the backbone of the eventual division 237 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:57.080 command for an eventual invasion into I Rock. So from 238 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:01.600 around Christmas one through two, you know, I'm in the 239 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.559 Middle East, flying around with the General, going to all 240 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.559 of the embassies in the Middle East, talking about whatever 241 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:12.240 they wanted to talk about, and then we come back. 242 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:16.279 And the benefit for me was it was only gonna 243 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.440 be for six months that I was the AID and 244 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.360 then I would in theory sort of have a choice 245 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:24.799 of duty station coming home. So I wanted to go 246 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:30.039 to Ricon, interviewed with the recon Italian commander and he's like, 247 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.159 I'm only going to make you the H and S coo. 248 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:35.399 I don't have any platoons open for you. 249 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:36.720 What's H and S? 250 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.919 So hg oh okay. 251 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:47.759 Hot dogs and SODA's Company. So that was not a 252 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.120 deploying unit, and none of us at the time, so 253 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:53.039 this is like mid two thousand and two, thought that 254 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.919 the entire divisions were going to get deployed for for 255 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.440 a rock. So I said no, thank you to that 256 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.159 and took a job as an executive officer for another 257 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.080 boat company. So I found myself back in Cornado for 258 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:10.399 a couple months, getting ready to set sale in January. 259 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:10.679 Of O three. 260 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:13.639 So you kind of hit. 261 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:19.639 Yeah, well basically, so set sale in January, full speed ahead. 262 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:22.399 I think we had thirty six hours in Singapore, between 263 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:26.799 San Diego and Kuwait. I got flown ahead into Kuwait 264 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:30.879 and then it was, you know, all of February and 265 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.000 most of March kind of waiting waiting for the green 266 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:35.600 light to go. 267 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.879 What's up, guys. This episode is sponsored by Presidious Watch Company. 268 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.120 They make really awesome watches, a lot of like homage 269 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:49.639 to former military watches out there. 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The sponsors that support the show. 297 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:17.640 We love you. 298 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.279 So what was sort of like your platoons mission and 299 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:26.440 your idea of how the Operation Iraqi Freedom was supposed 300 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:27.039 to unfold? 301 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:29.519 I had no idea. 302 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.880 I mean I was an executive officer our specific job. 303 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:36.200 So we're because we're part of the new we actually 304 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.880 got attached to a British Commando brigade, so the three 305 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:44.119 Commando Brigade as they're part of their combat element, and 306 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.799 we were tasked with crossing the border and then securing 307 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.079 the deep water port facility of Boom Kasser. Well the 308 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:56.200 four zero or two Commando the Royal Marines. I think 309 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.839 we're taking the Alphal peninsula to us. This is down 310 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.720 like Bosra, south of Bosra right so literally right across 311 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.839 the border is the Zoom Casser. 312 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:10.559 And then move we moved. 313 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.960 My battalion ended up moving further north up to Azubayr 314 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:17.640 and then a little bit further north. Uh and then 315 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:23.559 we got detached from the Brits because of Jessica Lynch, 316 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:28.119 that whole fiasco, So we all moved north up to 317 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:33.559 nazarea and uh so my battalion was part of the 318 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.279 diversion attack to go rescue Jessica Lynch out of nazarea. 319 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:41.000 Me specifically, I was probably asleep in my in my 320 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.559 black bag while all this stuff was going on. 321 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:49.200 Were any interesting incidents that happened during that deployment though 322 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:50.720 that you were involved in. 323 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:58.079 There are a few. I try not to to speak 324 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:05.279 ill of other people, don't There there was one specific 325 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.680 incident that I'll talk about this one because I bring 326 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:09.799 it up in the book where we're in Azoo by year. 327 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:13.079 We strong pointed the port because it's just our company 328 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:17.160 providing security, and I'm driving around with my company gun resergeant, 329 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:20.599 which in the Army it's like your first sergeant because 330 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:25.200 he's the logistics guy, and we hear fifty cow fire 331 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.720 or sniper fire, and my company gun he's a former sniper, 332 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.640 so he's like, that's outgoing. 333 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.279 We're trying to figure out what are we shooting at. 334 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:40.079 I get down to the platoon that's on that strong 335 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:43.839 pointing to the south, and the platoon sergeant asked me like, Hey, 336 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.160 what's the what's the drama, sir? And I'm like, I 337 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.400 don't know, that's why we're here. The platoon commander tells me, 338 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.559 you know what's going on. They've got eyes on a target, 339 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.279 but it's not a target. It's women and kids, you know, 340 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.759 maybe some men in vans and they're just kind of 341 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:02.720 looting a warehouse and and uh, the platoon sergeant that 342 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.920 platoon tells me that our company commander had just called 343 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.599 for a mortar mission, so he was going to use 344 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.960 his sixty mortars on on that target. And uh, it's 345 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.640 in that point in time where I was like, no, 346 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:21.279 that's not happening. I had inscribed on my my cover 347 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.759 or my hat, no women, no kids, borrowed from Leon 348 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:28.039 the professional, and so I threw the platoon commander in 349 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:30.559 our truck and we drove to the CP and I 350 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.799 just asked them, like, hey, did my CEO just. 351 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.039 Asked to do fire mission? 352 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.440 I said, astitute of fire mission and they and they 353 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:40.799 said yeah, but we're going to deny it. 354 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:41.720 And I was like, okay, good. 355 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:44.240 I was getting ready to walk out, but there had 356 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:47.240 been some other incidents that had happened a couple of 357 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.200 days before. So the battalion gunner, the chief one officer, 358 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:54.359 it's like, no, no, you know, you tell him everything 359 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.680 that's going on. And so I said, okay, out of 360 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.640 out of uh just curiosity. When you call for fire, 361 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:03.880 you have to give a target description. And so I said, 362 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.839 what was the target description that my CEO gave? And 363 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.160 he said ten to fourteen men in black with aks. 364 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.319 I said, okay, that's that's not what's there. 365 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.039 Here's the platoon commander that had eyes on it's women 366 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:21.319 and kids and they're looting, and I thought that was 367 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.640 sort of done. I thought that justice would sort of 368 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:29.319 square things away. I did not expect what happened next, 369 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.359 which was I got called in as insubordinate. 370 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:33.920 And then. 371 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:37.960 One of the other things that had come up was 372 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.440 that that company commander had pointed his rifle at the 373 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.079 fire support team leader, like, if you should call another 374 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.119 fucked up the fire mission, I'm going to kill you 375 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:49.279 because I should backtrack. As soon as we crossed the border, 376 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:54.160 we stopped, and then we had incoming. My company commander 377 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.319 was sure that there's no way the Iraqis could be 378 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:04.640 shooting are pready had us, So he just was so 379 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:06.680 sure that this was blue on blue fire. 380 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:09.599 That he was going to cause harm. 381 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:15.359 To the fire sport team leader, and he actually called 382 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.680 the training timeout. So the fire for effect went, you know, 383 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.559 we got away, I got away, We all ran away. 384 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.160 So I actually had my Plateam commander's tactical notebook is 385 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:29.599 as Iraqi shrapnel embedded in it, and he kind of 386 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.000 calls a training time out, pulls the nap out on 387 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.519 a humbie, calls all the platoon leaders and meet the 388 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.240 humby and it's like, how did this happen? And like, 389 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:44.319 we can't stay here, like if that was if that 390 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.559 was their just fire mission. You know, we're bracketed now 391 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.359 and we're not in a good place. Sure enough, we 392 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:57.200 got hit again. Eventually we moved and then our counter 393 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.119 battery or somebody else took care of that D thirty battery, so. 394 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.119 That came up. And then back to the mortar incident. 395 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:08.720 Though, my company commander asks me like, didn't you so 396 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:11.160 did you hear the call for fire on the radio? 397 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.039 I said no, I didn't. Oh, so you didn't hear 398 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.440 what the grid was that I called in. I said no, no, sorry, 399 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.960 I didn't hear what grid you called it. And he said, aha, see, 400 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.079 so you didn't realize that I had actually offset the grid. 401 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.960 He was going to use the sixty millimeter mortars as 402 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:35.960 warning shots danger close to our own troops warning shots, 403 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:37.319 and he got me with that. 404 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:38.720 I was speechless. 405 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.599 But anybody who knows anything about fire support is like, 406 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:42.799 that's just preposterous. 407 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:47.400 Yeah, that's not how the fire support center works, that's. 408 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.359 Not how any of that works. And your warning shots 409 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:53.480 with the fifty cow already are not working. So I 410 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:58.200 really wasn't sure what to do in that scenario. But 411 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.319 he said he could work with me, or I could 412 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.480 go to another company, and I had to weigh that decision. 413 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:05.920 It's actually. 414 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.839 Maybe one of the first times that I selected to 415 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.319 or I chose to do what's better for everybody else 416 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.519 and what's best for me. I called in my fellowcal 417 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.000 team commanders, all the other lieutenants, and I said, what's 418 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:23.000 best for me is to leave this company. And I 419 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:25.000 don't think that's what's best for you, because I can. 420 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.200 I can withstand this, and so I did. 421 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:32.039 I stayed. We go to nazarea. 422 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:38.079 Basically I don't see the company commander anymore. Fly home 423 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:40.119 or sorry, I fly home, fly back to Bahrain and 424 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.359 get on the ships and sail home. I get in 425 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:50.240 more trouble for the Shenanigans that allegedly I did in combat. 426 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:55.519 And at that point, it's like late two thousand and three, 427 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.440 most if most of all of the Marines are gone 428 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:01.559 from a rock and I'm like, that was it, that 429 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.759 was my combat. 430 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:05.319 Where's where's over for us? 431 00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:09.920 It's it's uh, it's standing operations now, big army time 432 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.200 like we that was and all of my peers are 433 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.119 like getting their awards with v and bronze stars. And 434 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.000 all that stuff, and I get a big fed zero 435 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:20.240 because of all the things that happened. 436 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:22.119 So I was like, that's going to hurt me down 437 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:22.480 the road. 438 00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.920 But no matter, I still was thinking I can get 439 00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:33.640 over to recon or force recon the path at that 440 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:35.240 point in time for me, it was going to be 441 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.039 through through Fast Company, which is the fleet and at 442 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:43.960 tears and security teams. So I get orders there, I 443 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:51.000 show up and Al Rashid Hotel had been rocketed. So 444 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:57.079 they pulled in the two platoons from Fast that were 445 00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:59.319 that were already I mean were they're always four deployed, 446 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:01.680 but they pulled into platoons that were for deployed into 447 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.960 Baghdad to reinforce the what would eventually become the embassy 448 00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.960 and the hotel, and so in order to maintain that 449 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:13.079 force protection posture, they started to grab platoons from stateside. 450 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.200 So I had, you know, within a month or so 451 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.400 of showing up to Virginia with FAST, I was back 452 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:20.079 in Baghdad. 453 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.559 And what can you tell people what the mission is 454 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:25.559 of the FAST teams? 455 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:31.680 Yeah, so it's anti terrorism, whatever form anti terrorism can take. 456 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.720 Usually it's going to be like a heightened security, heightened 457 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:40.839 force protection measures. They're used for whenever there's submarines that 458 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.279 have nukes on them, that bring out these this marine 459 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:47.559 platoons to help secure those areas for refuel defuel. 460 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:49.559 They'refore deployed. 461 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:51.519 You know, when I was in Bahrain with Fast, We're 462 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:56.960 on a pager to reinforce embassies to go provide expeditionary security. 463 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.319 We come with the Fast platoons, come with a ton 464 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:07.079 of skill sets to do all of that. They're kind 465 00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:10.680 of like a swat team, if you will, and the 466 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.559 naval swat team. 467 00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.680 And so the first assignment was you were going back 468 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.519 to Iraq, you said, for this hotel was getting hit. 469 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:21.559 So the hotel was multiple you know, it was hit 470 00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.119 with a bunch of rockets. And so the concern became 471 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:27.359 that what was then the Coalition Provisional Authority, which is 472 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.279 Al Rashid Alice I think, was going to get hit 473 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.279 and it is now the US embassy there on the Tigris. 474 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.880 So they wanted to bring in a company's worth of 475 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.119 Fast marines to provide better security for that place. 476 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:44.000 How did that situation unfold for you guys? 477 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:50.200 It was so drastically different from oif one like I 478 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.319 was in the Green Zone. I mean I was eating 479 00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:58.440 catered food made by Pakistanis, you know, in a palace 480 00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.160 with marble floors and toilet, which was a far cry 481 00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.240 from and going two months without a shower and then 482 00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.319 and then only getting kind of a quasi shower because 483 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.160 they brought the NBC truck and we're like, hey, you 484 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:14.279 guys need to be decontaminated. Ah, the palace had a pool. 485 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.799 David Letterman visited our palace. Some motivated CAV officer and 486 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.400 his stetson jumped into the pool to catch a football 487 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:22.839 that David Letterman threw. 488 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.359 And it was different. 489 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:29.839 Uh, it certainly was a different side of the war. 490 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:35.319 And and still you know, the Brown Irish was a 491 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:38.240 big deal. Going from from buy from Bagdad or National 492 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:43.920 to the CPA. We were rolling around and SUVs that 493 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:49.400 are unarmored, and Solder City was still not really secure. 494 00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.680 But this was just it was a unique time in 495 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.240 Lado three and into I guess a little bit earlier 496 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:58.160 four there in Baghdad where you could actually go to 497 00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.680 the souk not for are from the combat searchical hospital 498 00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:03.039 with no body arm or no weapon. 499 00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:07.279 Yeah, it was before things got dad. 500 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:14.880 Yeah, so then that changed it was basically guard duty 501 00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:17.519 for a few for three or four months for us. 502 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.960 So I came home from that, we got we got 503 00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:24.519 believed in place so that I could come home with 504 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.599 the platoon and then make a regularly scheduled deployment to 505 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.400 Bahrain where we would be on the pagers for everywhere 506 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:35.960 else and so on that deployment, there was an American 507 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.440 who was beheaded in Saudi and so there was some 508 00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:43.720 additional concerns about threats to the embassy. So they launched 509 00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:46.960 us to go reinforce Riad for about a month in July, 510 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:54.200 and same with yeah, go ahead, and then we got 511 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.799 sent down to Africa, so I got I got my 512 00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:03.880 taste of the Horn of Africa in four again different 513 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.319 than like Alfager and what was happening in Fallujah. 514 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:08.799 Yeah, I mean, what did they send you down to 515 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:09.599 the Horn of Africa? 516 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:09.720 For? 517 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.319 Some of it was training and some of it was 518 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.440 just to make sure the embassy there was fine. It 519 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:20.799 was good to have a platoona Marines there to reinforce 520 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:25.000 whatever it might be going on. And that also kind 521 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.720 of started to make me aware of how wild west 522 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.759 it is out there. Like they sent us down to 523 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:37.160 this one range where I think it took us like thirteen. 524 00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:37.720 Hours to drive. 525 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.960 This is out in Jibbetis, Djibouti. Yeah, so we go 526 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:43.720 way down south. It's like a two hundred and seventy 527 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.359 degree range where they're on our owns. My one assistant 528 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:50.559 or one of the other platuity commanders was it was 529 00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:53.599 supremely afraid that we're going to get overtaken by baboons, 530 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:55.799 so he wanted to make sure that the firewatch had 531 00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:00.960 a fully auto M four. But in my mind, I'm like, hey, 532 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.279 we're doing this live fire training and if we have 533 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:09.240 a casualty, there is no medical support. Like our case 534 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:10.240 of that plan was. 535 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.400 This was the H fifty three's. 536 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:15.839 They're on one eighty alert, meaning that if we have 537 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.160 something bad happens and we get on a sat phone 538 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:21.720 and we call up to Camp le Monnier one and 539 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.079 eighty minutes later, a H fifty three is flying thirty 540 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:32.519 minutes down south to come get our casualty. Interesting foreshadowing 541 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.680 because when I was back in Djibouti and nine we 542 00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:38.759 had an event where we had some casualties, and so 543 00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.319 it became fortunate for those guys that the French Foreign 544 00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.279 Legion was there and they could land one of their 545 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.759 linkses anywhere and that's how they got those guys to 546 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:49.039 the hospital. 547 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.839 Well this is a bit of a sidebar, but I 548 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:55.839 worked on a story a few years ago and it 549 00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.319 was an Army National Guard unit in Djibouti. They were 550 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:02.599 making that same trip, driving from the base out to 551 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.960 the range through all these canyons and valleys and everything, 552 00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:10.039 and what none of them knew. And you know what 553 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.960 surprised them was this huge rainstorm came through. It just 554 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:19.079 poured rain and they got trapped out in the you know, 555 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.680 driving through these waddies going through driving l mtvs. And 556 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.920 I actually got video of one of the l mtvs 557 00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.799 rolling over in the water and they had three or 558 00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:34.000 four soldiers end up in the water and they recovered, 559 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:35.759 like three of them managed to make it back to 560 00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.000 the shore. One of them got washed all the way 561 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:39.880 out to like the ocean and the French picked them 562 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.039 up but survived, thank god. 563 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.599 I believe it. Even with light rain didn't seem like anything. 564 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.519 And if you're use I mean from these coasts or 565 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:55.720 wherever Seattle has ran all the time, the lightest amount 566 00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:58.720 of rain and then we had about forty eight inches 567 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:00.839 of water that we had to afford or land cruisers. 568 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:03.440 Yeah, it's wild. 569 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:04.559 Uh. 570 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.920 And after the fast teams, you did six months on 571 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:09.880 division staff. 572 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:11.279 Yeah. 573 00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:13.680 So I came back from that deployment and they told 574 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.799 me I was a captain and I was too senior 575 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:20.559 to take another platoon, and rather than you know, to 576 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.160 suffer on battalion staff, I volunteered for her to be 577 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:27.480 an individual augment with my goal to be to go 578 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:33.640 on a military transition team. My initial set of orders 579 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.599 were to be for G four logistics in Kuwait. So 580 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.359 I check in Camp Le June with those orders and 581 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:44.640 I'm like, hey, I'm a infantry guy from Fast, I 582 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:46.359 don't know anything about logistics. 583 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:47.480 Can we change that. 584 00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:53.119 I'm here to be a myth And luckily they swapped 585 00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.599 me for some logistics officer and put me into G 586 00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.319 three down at the division. So I deployed as a 587 00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:03.400 frag order writer. Within a few months, it became clear 588 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:08.039 in Ramadi that that's not a really difficult job, so 589 00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:10.960 the intentions message writer took up the frag order writer 590 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.360 duties and I got pulled as an ada Hi admit 591 00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.840 to go out to further West and Ambar. 592 00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:22.519 With the two seven. So the second Brigade. 593 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:27.199 Seventh Iraqi Infantry Division with our three battalions and hit 594 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:28.880 Adfa and Murwa. 595 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.719 This is two thousand and five ish. 596 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.239 Yeah, so I spent just about all of two thousand 597 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:40.119 and five in Iraq, which is great because then I 598 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:42.400 could pretend like the Red Sox were still World Series. 599 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:46.360 Champions and in Iraq was kind of like the Tutorio 600 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:50.519 rating pretty seriously by this time frame, you know. 601 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.840 So five I think started the a little bit of 602 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.800 the Awakening. I remember being on Camp Blue Diamond when 603 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.639 they brought in I think the the tribes there to 604 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.920 start negotiating with them so that we could all focus 605 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.599 on a q i Z and a q I Am 606 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:15.280 instead of you know, fighting fighting the Shia. Everybody wanted 607 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:18.199 to geinst Arkaui. And then when I moved further out west, 608 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.159 they were still fighting out in all Crime, a little 609 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:29.800 bit around around Raua, but most of the there's really well, 610 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.960 I want to say that Fallujah was basically done. Second 611 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:38.440 Fallusha was done, Rockets would still hit Camp Blue Diamond, 612 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:41.360 and it wasn't a lack of combat. 613 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:41.920 Happening in Ramadi. 614 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:44.840 It just was not I think at the same level 615 00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:49.119 that it wasn't a four for me personally. It was 616 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.360 a lot of driving on like Route Bronze, Route Uranium 617 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:57.280 between all of the different Iraqi battalions, and that was 618 00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:02.280 also a different experience because it's you know, minimum minimally 619 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:08.800 staffed v's with you break all of the requirements and 620 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.159 minimums just to get out the door where we're basically 621 00:36:12.199 --> 00:36:17.440 going with nine Americans, three vehicles out to wherever it 622 00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:22.840 is or we're going. And then that really came to 623 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.360 a point when we got you know, I was lead 624 00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.119 truck and so our truck I hit with a small 625 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:28.480 I ed. 626 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:31.400 Not enough to disable us. 627 00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:33.960 And we're pretty sure that this pickup truck in front 628 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.079 of us is the one that dropped it. So we 629 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.559 we chase it down, we shoot at it together to stop. 630 00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:41.440 It pulls over. 631 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.280 We have three trucks, so one goes far side security, 632 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.000 one stays backside security, and then my truck with the 633 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.000 fifty col is is oriented to the target. And it's 634 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.559 really only at that moment that I realize I am 635 00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.480 the dismount. I'm the vehicle commander and the dismount, and 636 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:03.840 the only other dismount is my turf who's not armed, 637 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.199 and so I was like, oh, all right, Well we 638 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.599 close on the truck. You know, I don't need my 639 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.079 turp to be armed. But then when we get closer, 640 00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:15.400 I have them come with me. We flanked the truck. 641 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.079 Two guys get out, and at that point I realized 642 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.000 I'm going to have to search them because although I 643 00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:22.559 trust my it's like, which which way do you go 644 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:24.480 with that? Do I trust my turp to do the 645 00:37:24.519 --> 00:37:28.760 searching and I cover him or do I have So 646 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.519 I handed my M four on semi to the turf 647 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:33.840 and I'm like, you pulled the trigger. 648 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:34.599 It's going to go. 649 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.000 Please stand in enfilade, you know, And I close the 650 00:37:39.079 --> 00:37:41.480 last whatever it is, ten meters with my nine and 651 00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:46.280 search these guys. I know they dropped the id through 652 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.039 the there's a hole in the passenger side floor wall 653 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.960 or floor, but you know there's there. I had no evidence, 654 00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.199 and so I wasn't going to detain these guys on 655 00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:03.039 a hunch, you know, I was. They're in the wrong place. 656 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.519 You don't know where they're going. Their story, their cover 657 00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:09.920 for action doesn't check out. It's like, yeah, you guys 658 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:12.960 missed your turn to Albuquerque back there, so I know 659 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:16.280 you're lying about this but what was I going to do? 660 00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:19.000 There was There was no more explosives and so it 661 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:21.599 might have just been an eighty two millimeter or mortar 662 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:23.000 rigged a blow that hit us. 663 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:25.079 So we sent them on their way. 664 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:32.719 Geez, what a mess. And then after that deployment, you 665 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:34.280 did the Captain's career course. 666 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.320 I did, went down to Benning again. 667 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:44.079 The common theme of my military career is deploy as 668 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:48.280 often as possible, and they stateside as little as possible. 669 00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.480 So I took the Army's course because it's six months 670 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.199 instead of the Marine Corps because it's thirteen months. 671 00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:55.519 Went so went to. 672 00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.639 Benning for that, finished, got my orders to back to 673 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:07.280 Camp Pendleton as a company commander, and then it was 674 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:10.360 a patter of a few months. Caught them on the 675 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.599 tail end of their work up, and by I want 676 00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:16.880 to say, July of seven, I'm back. 677 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:17.119 In I rock. 678 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:21.280 Wow, where did you guys go? H? 679 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:27.239 So north of Fallujah is a place called Sokowa, And 680 00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.400 you know, no offense to calve guys intended beyond. 681 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:36.440 You know what your job is and your job is 682 00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.280 not coined. 683 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.840 So you know the five seven cave, mechanized cave, you 684 00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:44.280 net that's there, really did no patrolling in the AAR 685 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:48.679 that I inherited. Anytime they needed dismounts, it'd have to 686 00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:52.079 borrow them from the marine battalions that were nearby. And 687 00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:54.920 so what ended up happening prior to me showing up 688 00:39:55.239 --> 00:39:58.519 was the cave unit would go out and they'd hit 689 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:02.760 IEDs and and so they stopped patrolling, and then they 690 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.039 would only patrol if we're oute clearance, like two to 691 00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:08.320 four engineers would come clear their route. Then they would 692 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:12.719 patrol from their bradley's and then you know, and then 693 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.920 they would go back right up until they had like 694 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.679 a catastrophic event where I don't know if it was 695 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:23.679 even combat related, but they had about thirteen heat casualties, 696 00:40:24.559 --> 00:40:27.960 oh man, that had to get evacuated because they got stuck. 697 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:35.039 I you know, I inherited that aor it was the 698 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:40.239 wild West. So August of seven we start clearing it 699 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:45.840 and that's the one of my patrols goes out and 700 00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:53.039 hits an ID into a canal. We go to reinforce them, 701 00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:56.320 my QRF kind of blows past them. 702 00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:58.280 It's a second IED. 703 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.480 And so now I have two down truck and we're 704 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:06.480 trying to find where the trigger guys are So we're 705 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.199 trolling through the area, can't can't quite find them, recover 706 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.880 the vehicles best as we can leave them in place 707 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.840 so we can come back the next day with some 708 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.719 wreckers to pull these things out of the the one 709 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:21.239 out of the canal and then the one off of 710 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.840 the side of the canal, and as we're driving that back, 711 00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:26.280 we hit with another ied. 712 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.639 Recovering that vehicle complex ambush. 713 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:38.360 So this is sort of the unfortunate drawing of boundaries. 714 00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:41.960 The boundary was the canal, which was maybe ten meters 715 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:46.079 across and so not my AO is where I'm getting 716 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:51.480 RPG fire from, probably where the command was detonating all 717 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.519 of these i ds. So it's like I get authorized 718 00:41:54.599 --> 00:42:00.079 crossbow and the rickety mud bridges didn't really look like 719 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.639 they would hold up for us to cross, so I'm like, 720 00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:06.360 we're good on our side. And the fire support were 721 00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:08.320 troops in contact. They're like, okay, well we can support 722 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.199 you with artillery from Fallujah, and I had done the 723 00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:11.920 math already. 724 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.199 I was like, no, thank you. 725 00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:16.320 We're kind of at their max range and I'm looking 726 00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.280 to hit somebody who's twenty meters from me. So what 727 00:42:19.400 --> 00:42:22.639 else you got sent us some cobras, and so it's 728 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.880 cobras I could manage because I could say, hey, keep 729 00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:26.519 all your fires north of the canal. 730 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:28.320 Well, we're I. 731 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:33.280 Mean, we're so close that my Mark nineteen's gunner like 732 00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:39.000 hist his forty millimeters grenades weren't donating it, weren't were Yeah, 733 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:41.960 we wouldn't hit their minimum spins to arm and my 734 00:42:42.039 --> 00:42:45.000 fifty cow like we as pulled the rear cotter pin 735 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:47.559 everything get try to free gun that thing. He couldn't 736 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:51.079 depress it far enough to hit where the bad guys were. 737 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.199 So you put your mind to use. 738 00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:58.639 And I was like, well, shoot all your flares, shoot 739 00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:01.320 all our pop ups into the reeds. They catch fire, 740 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:03.519 and then we'll shoot them as they're running out of 741 00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.119 the out of the reads. 742 00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:10.280 They're not that flammable because they're right now. 743 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.840 But the bad guy, so I bad guys, you know, 744 00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:18.360 whatever they were, they decided to try to egress out 745 00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:20.039 of the area, hopped into a vehicle. 746 00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:22.679 The cobra saw it, so that was the end of them. 747 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:26.000 Smoked them. Yeah, the cobra pilots don't screw around. 748 00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:27.719 They do not. 749 00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:33.760 After that kind of the rest of the tour just 750 00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:37.239 progressed in the way that you wish it would encounterinsurgency operations. 751 00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:40.440 So we cleared the area, got some host forces or 752 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:44.119 some host nation people to stand up a provisional security force. 753 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:47.320 I start working with them, partner with them. They run 754 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:51.840 the checkpoints. Near the end of my tour there to 755 00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:54.039 give me a call like, hey, these two guys that 756 00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:55.960 we know are bad guys came into the area. They 757 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.480 both suicide bombers. We took care of them. One guy 758 00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:03.239 detonated himself but the other guy didn't. And so we're asking, 759 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:06.679 can you can you shoot some illum and bring out 760 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.000 your EOD. It's like, sure, this is awesome. You know, 761 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.519 local people saw the local bad guys, called the local 762 00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.880 law enforcement. They managed it, and so now all they 763 00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.760 need is like our support with illum and EOD. And 764 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:22.880 then I get told I actually can't shoot a loom 765 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:26.840 because this is almost two thousand and eight, or it 766 00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:28.039 might have been two thousand and eight. 767 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.400 And the ROE is. 768 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.199 Like, no, no, that the tiny little bass plate could 769 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.719 land on somebody and kill them. So no more looms allowed. 770 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.199 It's like, all right, well, how long we're we waiting 771 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:41.800 for EOD? Two hours? And so Finally I go out 772 00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:47.880 there with EOD and talking to my Iraqi counterparts there 773 00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:49.880 and they're like, you guys took so long. 774 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.559 Like I wish you would have told us you were 775 00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:53.119 to take this long. We were just blown them up. 776 00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:55.760 Yeah. It was always like that with E O. D. 777 00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.239 Yeah, So to me, that was success story, right, like 778 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.079 the tour started with the wild West. 779 00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:07.360 You know, we cleared it out, we took. 780 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.960 Our licks, we gave back, and then by the end, 781 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:13.480 you know, the locals are managing their own. 782 00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:22.679 Stuff and go ahead, I'm sorry, well and it it uh. 783 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:25.360 You know, you you leave thinking that everything went great, 784 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.679 and then you know, I remember it was like three 785 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.039 or four months later, you're like, oh, you know there's 786 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:34.679 there's still id's going off at ECP five or whatever 787 00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:35.599 it is outside. 788 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:39.360 Of Lucia, and you, I don't know, this is kind 789 00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:41.320 of rare in the army. I don't know about the Marines, 790 00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:43.960 but you got to pick up a second company command. 791 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:47.760 I did, right, So, when I was at Benning, I 792 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.079 went to that no form brief and kind of wanted 793 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:52.840 to go to that unit, and the ass the recruiters, 794 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.519 hey you take Marines, and they said yeah, and I 795 00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:57.960 was like, great, how do I join? And they said 796 00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.079 you got to be branch qualified and I said, I 797 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.039 eat crayons. I don't know what that means. And they said, 798 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.280 you got it. If you're an infantry guy, you got 799 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.719 to be a company commander. So I did that first 800 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:13.000 tour as a company commander and then kind of called 801 00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:15.800 Headquarters Marine Corps and said, hey, let me go try 802 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:19.119 out for this other unit and they said, no, you're 803 00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:20.599 not up for PCs orders. 804 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.519 So then I was like, all right, well what do 805 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:23.119 I do now? 806 00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:26.920 And what I did next was I went over from 807 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:30.800 a line company to weapons company and kind of became 808 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.599 the fire support coordinator for another deployment. 809 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.239 That's awesome. Back to Iraq. 810 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:38.239 Well, so we set sail. 811 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:43.079 This is two thousand and nine, and so I really 812 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:46.039 don't know what we thought we were going to do. 813 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.599 I sort of figured maybe we'd get pulled into Afghanistan 814 00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.159 or a rock. That's sort of the tendency with Marine 815 00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:54.639 expeditionary units is they just go to places for thirty 816 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:56.760 days and ruin it for all the people that have 817 00:46:56.840 --> 00:46:59.400 to stay there for longer. That's the experience that I 818 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.920 had as the guy like hate this marine unit comes in, like, 819 00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.360 you're just gonna like eat and defecate in my area 820 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:08.599 thirty days, blow up stuff and I'm going to have 821 00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:11.599 to live with the results. Like you're gonna shoot a miklick, 822 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.400 it's clear possible, IEDs Like, do you know what that's 823 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:16.800 going to do to all my locals? 824 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:17.960 Like no, no, thank you. 825 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:23.320 So what we ended up doing is we got attached 826 00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.280 to the counter piracy guys outside of the Horn of Africa. 827 00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:31.719 Oh interesting, And in a fun fact, my ship was 828 00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:35.280 hit by a submarine crossing through the Straits. 829 00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:36.480 And horror moves, who's submarine? 830 00:47:37.719 --> 00:47:38.800 Our submarine? Oh? 831 00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:39.280 No shit? 832 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:40.639 Yeah. 833 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:42.440 So I was on the USS New Orleans and we 834 00:47:42.440 --> 00:47:44.400 were hit by the USS grotten. 835 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:48.639 Did you have to like go to go into port 836 00:47:48.679 --> 00:47:49.679 for repairs after that? 837 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:51.039 Yeah? 838 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:53.119 So the USS New Orleans had to go dry dock 839 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:57.679 in Bahrain, which meant, you know, you had half of 840 00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:02.639 battalion's worth of infantry guys twiddling their thumbs. So they 841 00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:05.719 ended up shipping most of us down to Africa. 842 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:06.039 Again. 843 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:08.880 Someone got relieved for that. I don't think you can 844 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.119 crash a submarine without getting in trouble. 845 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.719 Yeah, the sub captain got relieved for that. 846 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.079 Our captain did not and in reality, like normally you 847 00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:20.800 think if you hit something like that, you go to 848 00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:24.400 general quarters, you know, to deal with all the damage. 849 00:48:24.440 --> 00:48:27.440 But that didn't happen. And I know that didn't happen 850 00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:32.039 because I didn't even wake up when the shub hit us. 851 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.519 This is al So then I got so I got 852 00:48:36.519 --> 00:48:39.320 sent over to the Boxer and this is two thousand 853 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:41.880 and nine. So part of what we were doing is 854 00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:44.960 is the Boxer ended up getting a whole bunch of 855 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:48.920 guys from Damn Neck parachuted in to deal with the 856 00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:49.760 Mariscala Dama. 857 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.360 Oh yeah, so you guys were down in the Horn 858 00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:59.679 of Africa when that happened. Cool, And I mean, how 859 00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:01.719 did it? How did that unfold from your perspective? 860 00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:05.960 Well, so from my perspective, I basically had nothing to 861 00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:10.280 do with it, and you know, because I was just 862 00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:11.960 a regular guy and they're going to bring in there 863 00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:15.119 on fires guys, And it sort of kind of escalated 864 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.280 that way where all of these marines in this in 865 00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:19.639 this youth thought like, hey, we'll get to participate in 866 00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:23.280 this in some fashion, and then one by one there 867 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:25.280 whoever thinks that they're going to do something kind of 868 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:28.440 got written off, like the recon guys who were like, hey, 869 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:30.639 we're the visit board, search and seizure people. 870 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:32.480 This is what we train. We're the experts on this. 871 00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:35.280 No thank you. We got this other asset that's going 872 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:35.719 to do that. 873 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:39.320 Even my buddy, the Cobra pilot, was like, well, I'm 874 00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:42.679 the I'm the Ford air controller Airborne, you know, like 875 00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:43.360 I will be the. 876 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:45.400 Guy who's flying fire support for these guys. 877 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:48.360 And he thought he was going to get to play, 878 00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:52.679 and then here's the you know, the unit's air controller, 879 00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:54.920 Like hey, they have this stuff and bringing these little 880 00:49:54.920 --> 00:49:57.719 birds and all of that. So he got frustrated that 881 00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.480 he wasn't going to get to do anything. And so 882 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.480 I think the only eight Marines that ended up supporting 883 00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:06.039 that at all was probably the Harrier pilots sort of 884 00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:11.679 flying you know, with ISR over Somalia, while the Bainbridge did. 885 00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.480 The work with the lifeboat. 886 00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:21.679 So let's uh, let's circle back around here, Like now 887 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:23.440 you're getting to the point where you're able to go 888 00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:29.639 to assessment and selection. So you mentioned that they came 889 00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:31.239 in and gave you guys a brief while you were 890 00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:33.920 down at Fort Benning and the Captain's career course. Like, 891 00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.559 I know you can't get into the details of the brief, 892 00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:39.760 but what what was it that kind of sparked your 893 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:41.360 interest in the in this organization? 894 00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.920 Uh so, I I had known about all those organizations. 895 00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:48.639 Well, I had known. 896 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:54.920 About that organization before, mostly through I guess Hollywood and 897 00:50:54.920 --> 00:51:00.360 and reading Eric Haney's book. Uh it was, it's up 898 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:02.599 until that no Foreign brief that it just was into 899 00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.280 my cards. They don't take marines, and marines are kind 900 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.719 of like a bucket of crabs sometimes where if you 901 00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:10.360 want to go do that thing, some of the Marines 902 00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:11.880 are going to put you down and say, no, you can't. 903 00:51:11.960 --> 00:51:16.079 They'll never take you, which is why I was. I 904 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:18.079 had I would not have even gone to the no 905 00:51:18.199 --> 00:51:21.440 Form brief except it was required, so I went. And 906 00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.800 then I was just kind of on a whim. Let 907 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:25.960 me ask the army guy, I hate you take marines 908 00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:27.199 and he said yeah. 909 00:51:27.480 --> 00:51:29.239 So I was like, all right, well, what do I 910 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:32.480 need to do? It was always my goal. 911 00:51:33.239 --> 00:51:35.480 And so the Marine Corps kind of stymied you for 912 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:37.960 a little bit, although I mean again, being a company 913 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:41.840 commander twice is pretty awesome. You finally come up for 914 00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.599 PCs orders and you had to go camp out in 915 00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:47.639 the School of the Infantry until you could go to ANS. 916 00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:53.119 Yeah, so you know, because we're sometimes not able to 917 00:51:53.320 --> 00:51:55.719 see second and third order effects. When they told me 918 00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:59.320 I was not for PCs orders, I couldn't apply for ANS. 919 00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:03.760 Then when I was up for PCs orders, it was like, okay, 920 00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:05.880 well now you can start your application for ANS, and 921 00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:08.840 it's going to take a while. So I was like, 922 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:10.559 all right, well, I have to find a job in 923 00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:14.039 the interim. So they stashed me in the ops shop 924 00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:16.679 for the regiment for a little bit, and the monitor 925 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:19.719 the detailer branch manager which you call it in the army, 926 00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:21.840 but the guy who cuts you orders, it's like, hey, 927 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:25.960 I can't they're deploying to Afghanistan RCT their regiment is 928 00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:29.320 you're not, So I need to cut your orders somewhere 929 00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:32.559 else while you square all this stuff away. So I 930 00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:35.760 got PCA orders to the School of Infantry at Camp Pendleton. 931 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.400 I show up there as I'm getting my invitation to 932 00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:44.880 go to the selection. So I show up and I'm like, hey, 933 00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:48.440 I'm gonna be your XO for the Infantry Training Battalion 934 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.559 and also I'm going to go away for forty five days, 935 00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:53.840 and then at the end of this year, you know, 936 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.280 I'm up for orders to somewhere else, probably. 937 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.039 I and so tell us about assessment and selection. 938 00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:07.639 What was that experience, Like, that's a good question. 939 00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:15.760 Because a lot of ans, we relies on novelty in 940 00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:20.079 order to get good reads on people, So the general 941 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.000 things that happen there they don't want to talk about. However, 942 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:28.280 I will say that allegedly after I finished, the woman 943 00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:30.159 that I was married to at the time said would 944 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:30.760 you do it again? 945 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:31.800 And I said absolutely not. 946 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:35.719 Now I'm like, of course I would do it again, right, 947 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.480 And occasionally I will go back to help them out 948 00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:42.880 with ans, And it's only like now ten or fifteen 949 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:46.880 the years later aultmost that I'll hear things and then 950 00:53:46.920 --> 00:53:50.280 in my mind I'll think, like, here's some of the 951 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.519 cadre I talk about this candidate mess this thing up, 952 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:54.880 and I'll be like, oh, that must be new. And 953 00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:57.239 it's only then that I realized, no, no, I also 954 00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:01.320 did that task. I just don't remember it because the 955 00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:05.159 stress level is so high that some of these memories don't. 956 00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:09.199 Encode and they're throwing Like when you say novelty, they're 957 00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:12.800 like putting you in scenarios that take you outside your 958 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:13.440 comfort zone. 959 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:21.400 Basically, yeah, so the stress phases you know everybody uses. 960 00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:24.800 Land navigation is a great tool because it's sort of 961 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:26.239 self correcting if. 962 00:54:26.119 --> 00:54:33.039 You if you have a good sense of geography. 963 00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:37.199 It's a simple task that should be simple to accomplish, 964 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:39.719 and it's hard because of the terrain and the distances, 965 00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:42.719 and so it's self correcting. Like if you choose bad routes, 966 00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:45.320 it becomes apparent because you don't make your times and 967 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:49.559 all that stuff. So land navigation is a piece, and 968 00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:52.119 then there's all these other things that come up that 969 00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:55.639 you weren't prepared for. You didn't know you were going 970 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:58.599 to get tested on. And I really liked how in 971 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:03.360 the instruction phase basically like med school, where it's see it, 972 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.239 so see it, do it, teach it is med school, 973 00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:12.199 And that was basically how it was. So you know, 974 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.320 like an ivy, like you see somebody doing it. Okay, 975 00:55:15.320 --> 00:55:18.039 here's your fake arm. Practice it, all right, turn to 976 00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:22.159 your buddy stick them. I'm like, all right, let's see 977 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:22.840 how this goes. 978 00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:30.440 And so you make it through assessment and selection and 979 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.199 then there must be the whole train up process. It 980 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:35.920 must have been pretty cool. Now you're getting to do 981 00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:37.519 commando's stuff right. 982 00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:39.400 Well. 983 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.159 So so the Marine Corps had a little bit of 984 00:55:42.199 --> 00:55:45.239 a pause there as well, because even though I passed ans, 985 00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:48.360 They're like, ah, but you you still you still owe 986 00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:51.239 us some time here at Camp Pendleton. So I had 987 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:53.960 to wait. I had to defer for a year to 988 00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:59.440 go to OTC. So I did and then went to 989 00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:04.519 OTC and it was it. 990 00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.119 Was fantastic, Like, I mean really really hard work. 991 00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:09.639 I think in a year I had seventeen non consecutive 992 00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:17.440 days off. It was all almost all new and all challenging, 993 00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:24.039 and no feedback, almost no feedback. So to me, like 994 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:31.239 somebody who strives or thrives on criticism or feedback or 995 00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:33.719 whatever it is or validation if I'm doing it well, 996 00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:34.679 like that was difficult. 997 00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:36.320 It's like did I do a good job or did 998 00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:37.239 I not do a good job? 999 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:41.119 Like I need to know what the ham sandwich is 1000 00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:43.400 that what does it look like that you're looking for? 1001 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:46.079 So I could produce it and I did pretty well 1002 00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:49.159 at the Captain's course. So it's like I know the doctrine. 1003 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.239 If what you want is a ham sandwich, I can 1004 00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:52.599 do that. 1005 00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:53.079 I can do. 1006 00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:59.440 You know, light infantry combat brigade tactics. You're not asking 1007 00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:04.679 for that, So I'm stepping outside of that comfort zone. 1008 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.599 But you know, this is so nebulous, and they're like, 1009 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:09.559 just well, what do you think? I'm like, I don't know. 1010 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:11.960 You tell me, is this a good idea or a 1011 00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:12.519 bad idea? 1012 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:14.159 I have? You know, I'm a straight leg dude. 1013 00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:17.559 Basically I have no concept of of you know, if 1014 00:57:17.559 --> 00:57:18.280 this is good or not. 1015 00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.639 They're like, y, you use your imagination, Like, all right, 1016 00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:21.719 well then we'll do it this way. 1017 00:57:22.760 --> 00:57:24.079 And that was usually good for them. 1018 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:27.320 GOT mean apparently yeah, they like that. 1019 00:57:27.360 --> 00:57:28.480 They like the creativity. 1020 00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:31.199 Uh. 1021 00:57:31.239 --> 00:57:33.480 And I you know, you would learn from your classmates 1022 00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:36.840 because some of them had had there are other courses 1023 00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:39.519 that you can take that can help prepare you for for. 1024 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:42.719 Some of that work. I had none of them, and 1025 00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:45.679 so you know, it was all OJT for me. 1026 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:50.400 And then you know, even within that that class I 1027 00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:52.559 could see that rookie mistakes that I had made in 1028 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:55.000 the beginning, I was no longer making them at the end. 1029 00:57:56.119 --> 00:57:59.079 Is this mostly like human stuff that you're working on? 1030 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:04.360 Yeah? Close target reconnaissance. 1031 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:08.440 Work and what is you know, do you know what 1032 00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:10.559 I mean? You have to have some conception of like 1033 00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:14.199 the job you're training for, like what is the actual 1034 00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:15.480 position that you're going to be doing. 1035 00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:21.679 So at A and S I had no idea. I 1036 00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:24.440 had none, really, And then when I got to OTC, 1037 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.760 I started to get a sense of what the job 1038 00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:29.440 would be if I was the person, if I was 1039 00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:33.280 the operator on the ground, And they were starved for 1040 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.639 officers at the time, so it started to become a 1041 00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:38.559 little bit more clear to me that what I was 1042 00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:39.760 going to do is going to be. 1043 00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:40.599 A troop commander. 1044 00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:44.679 And so while while I could also be a trigger 1045 00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:48.360 puller or humbe driver or whatever, more likely than not 1046 00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:53.159 I would get staffed into task force positions. 1047 00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:56.239 And this is kind of I can't remember if we 1048 00:58:56.679 --> 00:58:59.679 mentioned it here, but it's kind of interesting that the 1049 00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:02.159 Marine Corps kind of suggested that you go this route 1050 00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:04.960 instead of going to the other army unit that they 1051 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.159 felt you would have like better command time in this one. 1052 00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:14.199 I think it's sort of like rewind all the way 1053 00:59:14.239 --> 00:59:16.400 back to the beginning. When you grow up speaking the 1054 00:59:16.440 --> 00:59:22.280 three languages and your parents are immigrants, there's a preference 1055 00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:26.440 to send you to one place over the other if 1056 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:28.320 you desire, So the question to me is like, do 1057 00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.280 you want to be a super soldier? But in the 1058 00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:33.400 reality is that if you go there, you're really just 1059 00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:40.159 going to be a true handler in some respects. Or 1060 00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:42.480 you could go to this other place where there's the 1061 00:59:42.519 --> 00:59:45.239 possibility that you could also be the guy that operates. 1062 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:47.119 And so to me that was a little bit of 1063 00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:48.920 a no brainer. Even though I didn't know what the 1064 00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:50.280 job was. 1065 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:51.440 I was like, let me do that. 1066 00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:55.679 And after you finished OTC, like, what was it like 1067 00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:58.360 when you took this position? When you arrived there? 1068 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:02.559 It was a little bit of a shock. 1069 01:00:04.159 --> 01:00:07.559 And so the standard line that I used when I 1070 01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:11.920 would go forward to talk to people at the Tea 1071 01:00:11.960 --> 01:00:14.960 sox the theater special Operation Commands is I would they 1072 01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:16.880 would all want to be read into the unit and 1073 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:19.039 the SAP and all this stuff, and I would say, 1074 01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:22.199 you know, ninety five percent of what we do and 1075 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:27.039 then that last five percent is uninteresting. And also I 1076 01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:30.119 borrow the line from the Disney movie Aladin, It's like 1077 01:00:30.159 --> 01:00:33.039 we have infinite cosmic power in an ADBD living space, 1078 01:00:34.039 --> 01:00:37.559 Like the breadth of the things that we can do 1079 01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:41.639 is massive, and you know, the actual what we can't 1080 01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:45.880 what we're allowed to do is very very constrained. That 1081 01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:47.960 came up a couple of times because this was during 1082 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:53.320 the Obama administration, and so there were two events which 1083 01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:58.880 I can't remember the dates of, but I definitely got 1084 01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:02.559 called into the Office US on a Saturday in the 1085 01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:06.320 snow to sit down and come up with and we 1086 01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:08.840 called it like the Chinese food menu of like what 1087 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:13.440 can we do to strike back because the president's embarrassed 1088 01:01:13.480 --> 01:01:18.559 by what Sulivani said about you know him, So what 1089 01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.800 are our options? It's like okay, like you tell me 1090 01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:26.559 like no limits, right, yes, no limits. It's like okay, man, 1091 01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:31.480 we're gonna be here all day because yeah, here are 1092 01:01:31.559 --> 01:01:37.000 of things that I can do, you know, from from 1093 01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:39.159 A to Z. And then we're going to start adding 1094 01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:42.559 numbers to these things because we're in all of these places. 1095 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:43.119 Uh. 1096 01:01:43.559 --> 01:01:48.360 And we generated the list and then nothing was selected. 1097 01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:49.679 It's like no, thank You'll. 1098 01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:53.320 Just have water. The other was the Syria gas attack. 1099 01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:56.159 Now that I think about, it was that the redline 1100 01:01:56.199 --> 01:01:59.679 had been crossed, and then the question was I think 1101 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:02.159 I've just been in the front leaning rest there because 1102 01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:05.800 we leaned so far forward. So we called in and 1103 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:09.440 it's like, hey, that's it's my area. What have you 1104 01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:13.280 got that can go assess all this stuff, go find everything. 1105 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:18.440 So we got ready and then no call came, and 1106 01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:22.159 then by seventy two hours later, you know, like, hey, 1107 01:02:22.159 --> 01:02:25.760 our information is probably no longer accurate and I don't 1108 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:27.039 know that I can get anybody. 1109 01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:27.199 In there now. 1110 01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:32.800 Yeah, I remember when that happened, and there was some 1111 01:02:32.920 --> 01:02:36.679 movement that they like Rangeer regiment, like they were like 1112 01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.320 going to drop the hammer for a minute there, but 1113 01:02:39.400 --> 01:02:41.519 then yeah, Obama decided not to do. 1114 01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:46.480 It, which is why it's interesting to hear the guys 1115 01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:49.280 talking about it now, Like Mariskalabama, that was his time 1116 01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.159 frame too, and I was I wasn't on the box 1117 01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:56.360 in a bottom bad too, but yeah, so he allegedly 1118 01:02:56.440 --> 01:02:59.960 gave the green light on that, and then what is 1119 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:02.960 unknown is there was also a German ship that was 1120 01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:06.559 taken by Somali pirates, so the Boxer for a brief 1121 01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:09.599 period of time had a bunch of German commandos on 1122 01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:12.840 it as well. And then as the Germans are briefing 1123 01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:15.639 their chains of command about how this is going to 1124 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:18.920 go down, I think they do the standard army of like, hey, 1125 01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:23.519 we expect ten percent casualties, and the BBSs. You know, 1126 01:03:23.559 --> 01:03:26.000 the number escalates to I don't know, fifteen or whatever, 1127 01:03:26.840 --> 01:03:29.159 and their chain of commands started to balk a little 1128 01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:31.679 bit like, well, well, you know, casualties, Like no the 1129 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:35.039 Americans is they did this with no casualties, No problem. 1130 01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:36.159 This is different. 1131 01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:40.679 You know, it's the big deck from what I hear, 1132 01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.440 and this is hearsay. The way that kind of went 1133 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:47.760 down is the Germans asked the President, hey, you know, 1134 01:03:47.960 --> 01:03:49.719 what do you think. He's like, I don't know, it's 1135 01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:53.840 your ship, and so they kind of took that as 1136 01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:57.920 don't don't do the strike, gotcha. 1137 01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:00.159 Yeah, it's kind of interesting what you say about the 1138 01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:03.320 the Chinese food menu because I've had, as I understand it, 1139 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:06.559 even when the President signs a finding for the CIA 1140 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:08.599 and it has all this stuff on there from like 1141 01:04:08.719 --> 01:04:12.800 cyber warfare to assassination. But then it's like, hey, hold on, Skippy, 1142 01:04:12.880 --> 01:04:14.840 you got to read the fine print down here where 1143 01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:16.559 it says if you want to use any of this, 1144 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:19.000 you have to go back to the president and get permission. 1145 01:04:20.239 --> 01:04:23.760 So yeah, I mean, I don't know what your opinion is, 1146 01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.960 but I mean, is there like Jason Bourn really is 1147 01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:28.639 not a thing like that's a fantasy. 1148 01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:35.559 Yeah, that's a fantasy. There's no Treadstone project, you know, 1149 01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:39.519 to my knowledge, there's nobody who walks into the cafe 1150 01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.239 and knows the numbers of all of the vehicles they 1151 01:04:43.239 --> 01:04:46.079 are in the parking lots. Like I mean, if you 1152 01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:49.239 have that kind of idactic memory, you're that autistic, then great, 1153 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:50.840 I mean maybe we can make use of that, but 1154 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:52.960 then we also don't have the charisma if you actually 1155 01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:53.679 do a job. 1156 01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.719 Well, speaking of which, because of your background, did you 1157 01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:01.280 ever do any work in your up sitting in a 1158 01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:03.800 cafe smoking a cigarette speaking Lithuanian. 1159 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:05.559 No. 1160 01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:11.400 Near the end of my tenure was the invasion of CROMEA, 1161 01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:15.880 so of course the Baltic States got very nervous and 1162 01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:19.960 SOCPAC hosted a few working groups, and I got sent 1163 01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:24.000 out there since Europe was my AAR or part of 1164 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:27.960 my AAR, and kind of the questions came up, like well, 1165 01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:30.840 what have you got that can help there? And I 1166 01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:34.239 said nothing, but if you want something built there, I 1167 01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:36.840 can build it. It's going to take you about two years, 1168 01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:38.719 and you need to tell me now because the guy 1169 01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:40.039 who's going to do it is retiring. 1170 01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:45.599 Right. Did any of that go forward as far as 1171 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:48.880 building like clandestine infrastructure for them. 1172 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:50.360 That's my knowledge. 1173 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:51.639 No, that's too bad. 1174 01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:56.039 There may be and you know, I just may have 1175 01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:58.280 been on the outside of the gate by the time 1176 01:05:58.360 --> 01:05:59.360 it started to happen. 1177 01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:00.400 HM. 1178 01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:06.079 So I take it you did two three years as 1179 01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:12.400 troop commander and before we move on to the next thing, 1180 01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:15.039 anything any final thoughts on that period of your career, 1181 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:21.159 anything that's interesting that you're able to talk about. 1182 01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:26.440 Not not really the only interesting things are the prices 1183 01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.360 that are uninteresting. How the Marine Corps really doesn't like 1184 01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:33.880 guys that go and become special and so uh ironically, like, 1185 01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:36.199 as soon as I finished OTC, they're like, hey, you're 1186 01:06:36.199 --> 01:06:39.199 going to get orders to Command and Staff School. 1187 01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:40.360 I was like, no, I'm not. 1188 01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:44.840 There's no way, Like I didn't just finish this program 1189 01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:48.639 to get yanked into, you know, yanked over to Quantico 1190 01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:51.360 for for Command Staff College. 1191 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:54.280 And I think. 1192 01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:55.760 This is a problem that we often have as we 1193 01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:59.000 have to promorphize you know, big Army or Marine Corps, 1194 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:02.119 like the Marine Corps has knew No, it doesn't, it 1195 01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:05.159 is it's not an entity. There's somebody who wrote this 1196 01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:07.519 piece of paper directing this scene to happen. I just 1197 01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:09.639 need to go find that person and talk to them. 1198 01:07:09.719 --> 01:07:13.760 And so I got myself TDY to Quantico, found the 1199 01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:15.480 guy who wrote the order that was going to send 1200 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:18.599 me to school, and I said, what I needed you 1201 01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:22.159 to get off of this list because I know Person 1202 01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:24.960 X and Person why aren't on this list and like, yeah, 1203 01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:27.880 we scratched them off because this guy needs to get 1204 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:30.119 back into the cockpit and this guy's over at Marsok. 1205 01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:31.960 And I was like, I'm at Marsok. You know, can 1206 01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:34.119 you a freaking break, like scratch my name off the list? 1207 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:41.719 So they did. I did still have to do distance 1208 01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:47.880 learning program, and because I got enrolled into that, I 1209 01:07:47.960 --> 01:07:50.559 got pulled off of going to be the task force 1210 01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:54.599 commander in Afghanistan. I just ended up sending someone else 1211 01:07:55.880 --> 01:07:58.519 that comes up later as I talked to guys that 1212 01:07:58.679 --> 01:08:02.840 got out, because I would make the comment now that 1213 01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:06.119 I was so frustrated that I did Command and staff 1214 01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:09.800 it's a waste of time because I didn't end up 1215 01:08:09.800 --> 01:08:13.679 becoming a lietenant coronel or going to a staff. I 1216 01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:17.359 could have been the task force commander within a year 1217 01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:18.079 or two years of. 1218 01:08:18.039 --> 01:08:18.800 Having gotten out. 1219 01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:20.520 Now I would say, well, command of staff was still 1220 01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:23.880 a waste of time, but I could have been my 1221 01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:27.560 son's soccer coach, or I should have put work into 1222 01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:30.680 who I am that's going to persist after the uniform 1223 01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:32.600 is gone, and I didn't. 1224 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:36.800 And because of that, where you getting to the point 1225 01:08:36.800 --> 01:08:39.439 now where like you're kind of done with the Marine Corps. 1226 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:43.439 Well, So in order to work for that organization, I 1227 01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:46.199 had to be a geographic bachelor. The woman that I 1228 01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:51.279 was married to at the time didn't want to leave 1229 01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:55.560 her job and travel to the East Coast, so I 1230 01:08:55.640 --> 01:08:58.279 left her and the kids just north of Camp Hamilton. 1231 01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:03.039 And then when the Marine Corps was calling back and saying, hey, 1232 01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:06.600 you need to go back to regular infantry, I said, 1233 01:09:06.600 --> 01:09:10.159 that's fine. I'm more than happy to at least send 1234 01:09:10.199 --> 01:09:13.319 me to Camp Pendleton, that's where, you know the time 1235 01:09:13.359 --> 01:09:14.359 my wife and kids were. 1236 01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:16.760 And they said, no, you're going. 1237 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:19.039 To go to Twin I Palms, which is the Marine's 1238 01:09:19.079 --> 01:09:23.600 version of NTC. So at that point I was like, no, 1239 01:09:23.720 --> 01:09:27.319 thank you, I'm just going to take again. The Obama 1240 01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:32.680 administration offered early retirement, so I took it, and then 1241 01:09:33.760 --> 01:09:38.239 was the I got the lived experience of how when 1242 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:42.640 you decide to get out because that is so contrary 1243 01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:45.520 to the value set of the people staying in you 1244 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:47.960 kind of become persona non grada. 1245 01:09:48.119 --> 01:09:48.279 Yeah. 1246 01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:52.840 And even now, as I talked to veterans, I've lived 1247 01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:55.199 on both sides of that. So if you go back 1248 01:09:55.239 --> 01:09:58.760 to my first company commands to go into outside of Fallujah, 1249 01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:02.439 Like I had an e sergeant that was literally the 1250 01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:05.119 best sergeant in the division because he'd won this Super 1251 01:10:05.159 --> 01:10:10.159 Squad challenge, he'd done his two tours. Even though we 1252 01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:12.239 were going back to the same place, all he wanted 1253 01:10:12.279 --> 01:10:15.079 to do is go to Texas and open up a 1254 01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:18.840 business that was a fitness gym slash strip club. I 1255 01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:20.159 don't know how it's gonna make it work, but you 1256 01:10:20.199 --> 01:10:21.039 thought you could make it work. 1257 01:10:21.079 --> 01:10:22.119 God bless. 1258 01:10:22.680 --> 01:10:23.199 Yeah. 1259 01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:27.840 So I went through all of the same, you know, 1260 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:33.359 all of the pressure that I could put on him 1261 01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:36.159 to make that enlistment, guilt tripping him, like, hey, we're 1262 01:10:36.159 --> 01:10:37.359 going back to the same place. 1263 01:10:37.479 --> 01:10:39.520 If you don't, if you don't also go, people are 1264 01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:41.000 gonna die. You know the area. 1265 01:10:41.199 --> 01:10:43.439 Don't you want your guys to succeed, Like you've got 1266 01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:46.319 to come with us, reenlist, re enlist, And good for 1267 01:10:46.439 --> 01:10:50.560 him that he didn't. And then I realized like, oh, 1268 01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:53.640 this is this is a problem of ours and we're 1269 01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:55.399 a lot of what have you done for me lately? 1270 01:10:56.119 --> 01:10:59.399 I also saw that in Baghdad when there was a 1271 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:04.439 couple of guys is that you know, they were partying 1272 01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:07.600 at the Al Rasheet hotel and we're not in the 1273 01:11:07.640 --> 01:11:09.439 place where they're supposed to be when the when the 1274 01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:12.800 rockets hit, and so their commander was so embarrassed that 1275 01:11:12.880 --> 01:11:16.880 he basically you know, wrecked their careers and would give 1276 01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:20.520 them the combat action ribbon. So they all left the 1277 01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:22.920 Marine Corps. It's like, wow, you know, this is what 1278 01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:28.079 we do to to, you know, allegedly our brothers. And 1279 01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.359 now at that point I was feeling it, you know, 1280 01:11:31.479 --> 01:11:35.079 feeling that weight on myself, like my six colonel was 1281 01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:38.319 treating me like a liar about how I was trying 1282 01:11:38.319 --> 01:11:43.079 to separate, trying to try to check my story with 1283 01:11:43.159 --> 01:11:44.439 the other Marines at the unit. 1284 01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:50.000 This doesn't make sense, totally makes sense. And so it 1285 01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:50.319 was a. 1286 01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:55.119 Little bit of a that seems to be common enough 1287 01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:57.720 of a theme. If it's not ubiquitous, it's at least, 1288 01:11:57.840 --> 01:12:01.039 you know, the preponderance of guys that it out the 1289 01:12:01.119 --> 01:12:06.000 departure is not pretty and so that sets you into 1290 01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:09.279 that six months to a year time frame post service 1291 01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:11.960 where you're kind of lost. And so we at the 1292 01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:14.600 VA that's the danger zone, I think where we see 1293 01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:17.239 a lot of guys that start with substance abuse, major 1294 01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:21.720 depressive episodes. Most divorces will happen within those first six 1295 01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:26.399 months because you lose everything. You lose your sense of purpose, 1296 01:12:26.439 --> 01:12:27.600 who you are, identity. 1297 01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:30.520 Yeah, the military kind of true to you like a 1298 01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:35.800 leper when you're getting out. But expanding on that, so 1299 01:12:35.920 --> 01:12:39.239 you begin the retirement process. What was your transition like 1300 01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:40.319 out of the Marine Corps? 1301 01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:44.800 It was like immediate, you know, I got my orders. 1302 01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:49.039 Maybe maybe it was in the springtime, and so I 1303 01:12:49.119 --> 01:12:51.479 thought in every way that I could to try to 1304 01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.880 modify and change them, find. 1305 01:12:54.640 --> 01:12:56.479 Loopholes, you name it. 1306 01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:03.600 And then I think I basically had two months two separate. 1307 01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:06.960 The other thing that the Marine Corps did, which was 1308 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.760 so awesome was they that's when they audit your record, 1309 01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:14.640 and that's when they decided that my pay entry base 1310 01:13:14.720 --> 01:13:17.560 date was wrong and so they had been overpaying me 1311 01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:20.000 for fifteen and a half years and so they just 1312 01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:20.880 stopped paying me. 1313 01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:25.760 What they're like, you owe the government. 1314 01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:29.039 We overpaid you sixty thousand dollars, so we're just not 1315 01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:31.199 going to pay you for your last two months of service. 1316 01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:37.439 And by the way, here's your bill for what we 1317 01:13:37.479 --> 01:13:42.520 overpaid you. Luckily, I ended up, you know, filing. 1318 01:13:42.159 --> 01:13:44.920 Paperwork that said it's no pay due. 1319 01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:50.840 Like, hey man, I didn't intentionally, you know, defraud the government. 1320 01:13:50.960 --> 01:13:53.960 Like I had no idea that you know, the extra 1321 01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:56.279 five dollars you were giving me for paycheck or whatever 1322 01:13:56.279 --> 01:13:59.239 would amount to sixty grand at the. 1323 01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:00.399 End of my career. 1324 01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:03.600 But you know, for for the months of October November, 1325 01:14:03.640 --> 01:14:04.880 I was like, where's my paycheck? 1326 01:14:06.199 --> 01:14:07.920 And it just didn't exist. 1327 01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:12.239 They just cut you off, like mommy and Daddy say 1328 01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.079 no more, your allowance is canceled. 1329 01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:17.359 Yeah. 1330 01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:21.439 So with that kind of departure, it's like, go after yourself, Marines. 1331 01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:23.079 And for a while it was like, I will, I 1332 01:14:23.119 --> 01:14:27.039 will never work with Marines again because I couldn't I 1333 01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:30.560 couldn't believe it that this brotherhood would do this to, 1334 01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:32.079 you know, an alleged brother. 1335 01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:36.199 But that's so went yep. 1336 01:14:36.279 --> 01:14:38.640 But years later, when they need you again, you're a brother. 1337 01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:42.880 Suddenly we're family, right, We're family. 1338 01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:45.439 Yeah. 1339 01:14:45.479 --> 01:14:48.359 And uh so, you know, at the beginning, I would 1340 01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:50.920 say as a contractor ice like I wouldn't work with marines. 1341 01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:53.520 And then even as a psychologists like, I prefer not 1342 01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:58.520 to work with marines except for people that I knew 1343 01:14:58.640 --> 01:15:00.560 before I got out, And so I would work with 1344 01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:03.279 Recon because some of my lieutenants went over there and 1345 01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:05.039 I would do you know, if they asked for a favor, 1346 01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:08.640 I would do a favor. And even then, you know like, ah, 1347 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:13.079 there's a recompleatent commander who went after those two, a 1348 01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:15.920 Recon company commander, and he's asking me like, hey, you know, 1349 01:15:15.960 --> 01:15:18.000 what are the what are the black ops that we 1350 01:15:18.039 --> 01:15:19.319 can do on this view? 1351 01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:21.359 Like what are the black ops we can do. 1352 01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:28.560 In in Southeast Asia? I was like none, Like they're 1353 01:15:28.560 --> 01:15:30.479 not gonna nobody's gonna have you do that. And oh, 1354 01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:32.600 by the way, like where's all the ope that these 1355 01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:34.760 two guys I know before you did, like they prepped 1356 01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:37.800 your battlefield, they gave you all of these things. Oh no, no, 1357 01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:40.039 you know, like we're going to do something different. And 1358 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:42.920 it's like, oh, I see, I'm also guilty of this, 1359 01:15:43.039 --> 01:15:45.479 Like you can't teach the marine anything. They were all 1360 01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:49.000 experiential learners, so I can tell you to do the thing, 1361 01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:50.439 but you're going to do it. No, I'm going to 1362 01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:52.479 do it my way. And then oh, my way doesn't work. 1363 01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:54.239 Right now, I'll come over. You're gonna try your way. 1364 01:15:55.319 --> 01:15:58.399 And what were you doing as a contractor at that time? 1365 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:03.000 I would contract for my old unit, either as a 1366 01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:06.520 tactical instructor or as a role player. 1367 01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:11.560 Cool. And at the same time, you are becoming acquainted 1368 01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:16.039 with being a full time or part time dad. 1369 01:16:15.880 --> 01:16:18.119 Mister mom, yeah, daddy uber. 1370 01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:21.479 Yeah, that's how I feel now my daughter's a teenager. 1371 01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:29.439 Yeah, so yep. It was a drastic difference. I think 1372 01:16:29.479 --> 01:16:31.520 I talk about it in the book how I went 1373 01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:34.760 from briefing sack her on a kill capture mission in 1374 01:16:34.800 --> 01:16:41.920 his aor probably early of twenty fourteen to December twenty fourteen. 1375 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:44.439 My only responsibility is wiping my two year olds? 1376 01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:50.600 But how is that going for you? You know psychologically 1377 01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:53.439 that like, this is a big, big adjustment that you're making. 1378 01:16:55.199 --> 01:17:00.560 It was a massive adjustment, which is when the reasons 1379 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:03.880 why you know, I got drawn to write this adjustment 1380 01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:11.199 stuff into the book Warrior Withdrawal, And you know I 1381 01:17:11.239 --> 01:17:13.720 was trying to figure out because I mean, everything was 1382 01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:16.800 gone basically, so the fifteen and a half years of 1383 01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:21.079 service and no more, thank you for your service. And also, 1384 01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:25.680 you know, active duty keeps on active duty ing. And 1385 01:17:25.720 --> 01:17:28.279 I saw this one comment on LinkedIn the other day 1386 01:17:28.359 --> 01:17:31.279 where some person writes in that she's been out for 1387 01:17:31.319 --> 01:17:33.439 a year and her company commander hasn't called her once, 1388 01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:34.479 like well, of. 1389 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:37.319 Course, and I laughed at it. I was like, oh, yeah, 1390 01:17:37.319 --> 01:17:37.640 that's that. 1391 01:17:37.720 --> 01:17:42.119 Maybe that's a problem, you know, like that they just 1392 01:17:42.159 --> 01:17:44.640 don't care about you anymore because they had they got 1393 01:17:44.680 --> 01:17:49.039 to keep the army keeps marching along, right as the 1394 01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:54.640 song goes. So twenty fifteen, I was mister mom for 1395 01:17:54.680 --> 01:17:56.520 a year. The woman that I was married to you 1396 01:17:56.560 --> 01:17:59.039 at the time. You know, she could increase her travel, 1397 01:17:59.680 --> 01:18:02.960 so she did do that. And then by twenty sixteen 1398 01:18:03.279 --> 01:18:06.039 I was like, I got to do something, and so 1399 01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:09.680 contracting opportunities came up, and as long as there are 1400 01:18:09.680 --> 01:18:12.439 acona Is based, I would take them. And it was 1401 01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:15.640 on one of these contracting gigs that I chatted with 1402 01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:20.199 my op psych from the unit. I had a candidate 1403 01:18:20.279 --> 01:18:22.079 that I was like, Hey, this guy's a narcissist. 1404 01:18:22.159 --> 01:18:24.199 How do I write that up? You know? 1405 01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:27.079 And he's like like execure, you go write it up 1406 01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:29.319 this way that way, And we had a longer discussion 1407 01:18:29.319 --> 01:18:32.199 about how kind of I was in this these doldrums. 1408 01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:36.479 Having gotten out, I feel more like myself on these contracts, 1409 01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:39.720 you know. So that's why it's like a withdrawal symptom. 1410 01:18:40.880 --> 01:18:44.359 And he's like, you should be a psych or special 1411 01:18:44.359 --> 01:18:46.680 operations units. Like he said, they'll talk to you in 1412 01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:48.560 a way that they'll never talk to me, because you've 1413 01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:51.119 been to the coronet, you've gone through a and as, 1414 01:18:51.159 --> 01:18:51.720 you've done. 1415 01:18:51.520 --> 01:18:52.279 All of these things. 1416 01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:55.159 So I was like, all right, write me the recommendation, 1417 01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:58.760 and I started school and then. 1418 01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:02.479 Six years later I was done. 1419 01:19:03.319 --> 01:19:07.279 Four years of academics, a year of internship, and then 1420 01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:09.560 and then post talk at the VA. 1421 01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:13.920 What as what was kind of like your speciality when 1422 01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:17.239 you went to psych school? Was it always, uh, you know, 1423 01:19:17.279 --> 01:19:19.359 an idea that you were going to work with veterans or. 1424 01:19:21.239 --> 01:19:23.800 Yeah? So initially that's that's what my goal was. 1425 01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:29.119 I had gone through the SERGS, the FBI's Crisis Response 1426 01:19:29.159 --> 01:19:33.239 Groups Hostage Negotiator course, because I figured I would do 1427 01:19:33.319 --> 01:19:33.880 that well. 1428 01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:36.159 I did actually try. 1429 01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:38.399 While I was mister Mom to volunteer to be a 1430 01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:44.319 hostage negotiator here in southern California, and I got turned 1431 01:19:44.319 --> 01:19:48.880 down because basically that's nobody's primary gig. In fact, the FBI, 1432 01:19:49.000 --> 01:19:52.359 there's only like six or seven or so full time negotiators. 1433 01:19:52.560 --> 01:19:55.159 We had one of Barry Nosner. 1434 01:19:55.880 --> 01:20:01.560 Yeah, for everybody else, it's a it's an ancillary duty, 1435 01:20:02.359 --> 01:20:07.319 so secondary job, right, So for the you know, like 1436 01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:09.840 the local townships. I was like, hey, I will, I 1437 01:20:09.840 --> 01:20:13.199 will come to your negotiator. You know, you don't even 1438 01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:15.960 have to pay me. I've got a pension. I just 1439 01:20:15.960 --> 01:20:18.760 you know, this is the work that I want to do. Uh, 1440 01:20:19.359 --> 01:20:22.279 like I can't because of the liability reasons. So that 1441 01:20:22.720 --> 01:20:26.760 also sort of pushed me into the doctor route almost 1442 01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:29.760 as soon as I started psych school, though, that kind 1443 01:20:29.840 --> 01:20:34.960 of soft guy, not yes special operations guy took over 1444 01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:37.079 where you're always trying to get to the. 1445 01:20:37.079 --> 01:20:38.479 Left of the boom. 1446 01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:42.319 So, you know, with with special operations, it was all 1447 01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:46.079 right before the i D blows up, and then before 1448 01:20:46.119 --> 01:20:48.119 the i D gets implanted, and then before the hole 1449 01:20:48.199 --> 01:20:51.560 is dug, and then before the i D is made, 1450 01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:53.479 and then you know, before the guy buys the parts 1451 01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:55.000 of the i D. That's how we get to the 1452 01:20:55.079 --> 01:20:59.600 left of the boom and in psych school, I was 1453 01:20:59.640 --> 01:21:01.960 like to me, that means I should be a child psychologist, 1454 01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:07.640 so help people out before they develop all of these problems, 1455 01:21:08.239 --> 01:21:12.479 because the adults are fully baked cakes and I don't 1456 01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:15.680 want to unbake the cake now it's impossible, So just 1457 01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:18.039 give me the raw materials of the kids and then 1458 01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:21.119 we'll bake a good cake. So for three years, for 1459 01:21:21.159 --> 01:21:24.159 three practical years, I was a child psyche working with 1460 01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:28.199 at risk teenagers at the Children's Hospital of Orange County 1461 01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:33.000 and another intensive outpatient program with UCLA for kids that 1462 01:21:33.399 --> 01:21:36.880 are teenagers kids that have OCD, and then over in 1463 01:21:36.920 --> 01:21:39.560 San Bernardino County and out patient clinic. 1464 01:21:40.119 --> 01:21:41.520 This was your post doc work. 1465 01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:47.000 So that was practical work and internship in San Bernardino County. 1466 01:21:47.079 --> 01:21:49.239 And then when it came time for postdoc, I had 1467 01:21:49.279 --> 01:21:54.279 gone to a buddy's retirement ceremony and paddle pass I 1468 01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.520 mentioned that kind of or actually I mentioned that exactly 1469 01:21:57.720 --> 01:21:58.159 in the. 1470 01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:04.760 In the books introduction out. 1471 01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:08.960 While I'm there, the thoughts of this warrior withdrawal piece, 1472 01:22:09.079 --> 01:22:12.159 like that missing thing kept coming back, and I was 1473 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:14.560 back among all these veterans and spouses, and I was 1474 01:22:14.560 --> 01:22:19.319 like I feel like I need to something is calling 1475 01:22:19.359 --> 01:22:24.439 me to write this thing, and so I took a 1476 01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:27.880 residency postdoc year at the VA to sort of flesh 1477 01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:31.640 out my hypothesis, which was largely based off of doctor 1478 01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:35.680 freeze work operator syndrome. So at the time, I had 1479 01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:39.399 thought what I went through was because I was an operator, 1480 01:22:40.319 --> 01:22:43.319 and so my hypothesis was, Okay, it's going to be 1481 01:22:43.319 --> 01:22:47.079 the same. It's the TBI, it's the constant deployment, it's 1482 01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.760 all this stuff that's caused me to have this difficulty transitioning. 1483 01:22:52.159 --> 01:22:56.560 And so I went to the VIA to confirm that assumption, 1484 01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.359 and then very quickly learned that's not the case at all, 1485 01:23:00.880 --> 01:23:03.920 because right off the bat I started to get veterans 1486 01:23:03.920 --> 01:23:07.840 that had not gone to combat, and then veterans who 1487 01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:12.079 had not deployed, and you know, all the way down 1488 01:23:12.079 --> 01:23:15.560 to I had one soldier who was separated at a 1489 01:23:15.880 --> 01:23:19.560 t and the symptoms were the same. So the loss 1490 01:23:19.560 --> 01:23:22.720 of identity, loss of sense of purpose, why bother getting 1491 01:23:22.760 --> 01:23:28.760 out of bed, communications issues, anger management problems, reliance on 1492 01:23:28.840 --> 01:23:35.439 maladaptive coping skills like substance abuse, video games, isolation. So 1493 01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:39.479 the way I all of those tend to be learned 1494 01:23:39.560 --> 01:23:44.680 in the military because they're adaptive or effective. So, like 1495 01:23:44.800 --> 01:23:48.920 my tour at Okinawa in two thousand because or two 1496 01:23:48.920 --> 01:23:51.359 thousand and one, nothing's going on. So the joke about 1497 01:23:51.399 --> 01:23:54.600 Okinawa tours is you either become an alcoholic or a 1498 01:23:54.600 --> 01:23:57.119 pete stud and then some people like me try to 1499 01:23:57.159 --> 01:23:57.600 do both. 1500 01:24:00.119 --> 01:24:01.800 There's nothing to do, so you just try to. 1501 01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:04.960 Fast forward through the deployment because there's an end date, 1502 01:24:05.840 --> 01:24:08.000 and so if I can sleep twice as long, then 1503 01:24:08.039 --> 01:24:10.479 the deployment's half as long, and so I'll get home 1504 01:24:10.520 --> 01:24:12.680 as fast as I can. And then, unfortunately, when you 1505 01:24:12.680 --> 01:24:18.199 get home usually it reverses and it's like, oh, I 1506 01:24:18.279 --> 01:24:21.680 can't wait to be deployed right right, And so now 1507 01:24:21.720 --> 01:24:23.439 you have a countdown to how can I get in 1508 01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:27.399 this next deployment? And we fast forward through time with 1509 01:24:27.520 --> 01:24:32.800 video games, substance abuse, you know, you name it. Unfortunately, 1510 01:24:32.840 --> 01:24:35.520 when you get out out and now you're a veteran, 1511 01:24:36.319 --> 01:24:39.439 what am I fast forwarding to? There's no I'm just 1512 01:24:39.439 --> 01:24:42.359 going to fast forward the rest of my life drinking 1513 01:24:42.399 --> 01:24:45.239 default not to fall asleep and sleep. Well, I'm going 1514 01:24:45.239 --> 01:24:46.920 to drink through the weekend and go back to work 1515 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:49.840 Monday to get to Friday to drink through the weekend 1516 01:24:49.880 --> 01:24:54.840 because I don't want to deal with anything. So I 1517 01:24:54.880 --> 01:24:57.279 saw all of that at all levels, and so my 1518 01:24:57.399 --> 01:25:03.680 hypothesis shifted to basic training. Boot camp is sufficient enough 1519 01:25:04.279 --> 01:25:09.000 to drag you into this warrior culture. And I absolutely 1520 01:25:09.039 --> 01:25:12.479 think that there's a significant cultural component to it. It's 1521 01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:15.239 one of the smallest cultures we have in the country. 1522 01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:18.680 So few people are in it, and it's so tightly 1523 01:25:19.239 --> 01:25:24.159 bound that when you're out of it, you struggle with 1524 01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:27.439 trying to be assimilated back into the civilian culture. 1525 01:25:28.399 --> 01:25:32.279 I've described it in the past that it's like, especially 1526 01:25:32.319 --> 01:25:34.560 for what you did, that you were part of a 1527 01:25:35.039 --> 01:25:39.039 sub sub subculture that probably there were certain things that 1528 01:25:39.119 --> 01:25:42.039 you were read onto that thirty five people in the 1529 01:25:42.199 --> 01:25:45.319 entire world were read onto, and so it becomes like 1530 01:25:45.359 --> 01:25:48.359 this increasingly small circle of like people who can relate 1531 01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:50.119 to your experiences. 1532 01:25:51.680 --> 01:25:56.279 That is absolutely true, and that I noticed that last November. 1533 01:25:56.279 --> 01:25:58.960 In this November, when I went back out to contract 1534 01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:01.439 for my own unit, and I'm sitting at a table 1535 01:26:01.800 --> 01:26:05.399 and it's one of the few places where I can 1536 01:26:05.399 --> 01:26:09.560 speak completely unguarded because everybody there and there's I think 1537 01:26:09.640 --> 01:26:12.159 less than three hundred of US or something like that 1538 01:26:12.159 --> 01:26:15.680 that have completed the entire thing. So to be in 1539 01:26:15.720 --> 01:26:18.880 a room with forty or fifty of them or just 1540 01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:20.680 sitting at a table with five or six of them 1541 01:26:20.800 --> 01:26:28.119 is is it's really distressing and in a good place 1542 01:26:28.159 --> 01:26:32.680 to be, however, because I was seeing the same types 1543 01:26:32.680 --> 01:26:36.399 of communications issues. You know, the you know, it's it's 1544 01:26:36.479 --> 01:26:40.319 the guy that was the cook or the the motor 1545 01:26:40.359 --> 01:26:43.600 tea guy that's walking around town with you know, the 1546 01:26:43.720 --> 01:26:46.399 US Army veteran hat and then the you know, the 1547 01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:49.000 nine Line Apparel T shirt and then they don't tread 1548 01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:51.680 on me sticker on the on the back or the 1549 01:26:51.840 --> 01:26:53.880 entire DT two fourteen on the back of their pickup, 1550 01:26:54.359 --> 01:26:57.399 and it's this is the identification friend or foe. It's like, 1551 01:26:57.439 --> 01:27:02.760 don't mess with me because I would see all of that. 1552 01:27:03.439 --> 01:27:06.680 It's also I f f because I want veterans to 1553 01:27:06.760 --> 01:27:11.439 approach because again that's when I that's the withdrawal symptom. 1554 01:27:12.359 --> 01:27:14.359 That's how I know it's a withdrawal symptom because when 1555 01:27:14.359 --> 01:27:17.520 you chat with another veteran, all of that goes away. 1556 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:19.560 Same is me sitting at that table with all my 1557 01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:24.279 unit bodies. It's like all of that you know, the anger, everything, 1558 01:27:24.319 --> 01:27:25.159 all of that goes away. 1559 01:27:25.239 --> 01:27:26.600 It's like I could just be me again. 1560 01:27:28.359 --> 01:27:32.640 Yeah, it's incredible. And one of the things you mentioned 1561 01:27:32.640 --> 01:27:35.159 to me earlier, and I think you touched on it 1562 01:27:35.199 --> 01:27:40.159 a little bit, was the sort of difference between PTSD 1563 01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:47.159 and adjustment that there is this process of transition and 1564 01:27:47.319 --> 01:27:50.319 adjusting out of that military culture which is sort of 1565 01:27:50.359 --> 01:27:53.079 separate from PTSD. You need not have gone through some 1566 01:27:53.119 --> 01:27:55.039 sort of traumatic combat event. 1567 01:27:57.800 --> 01:27:58.600 Right, So. 1568 01:28:00.199 --> 01:28:03.319 Had the opportunity to kind of really speak quickly through 1569 01:28:03.359 --> 01:28:07.319 this at Austin for America. What I and the way 1570 01:28:07.359 --> 01:28:09.079 that I do is I just go through the symptoms. 1571 01:28:09.880 --> 01:28:12.880 So with post traumatic stress disorder, you know, as you 1572 01:28:12.920 --> 01:28:17.079 were talking to doctor Free right now at the VA, 1573 01:28:17.560 --> 01:28:22.920 we don't really even bother asking about the trauma. I mean, 1574 01:28:22.960 --> 01:28:25.760 we try to get the index trauma, but the post 1575 01:28:25.800 --> 01:28:28.520 traumatic stress Disorder checklist doesn't bother. It only asks about 1576 01:28:28.520 --> 01:28:32.720 the other four symptoms. So those major symptoms, so those 1577 01:28:32.840 --> 01:28:38.079 are re experiencing, so nightmares, flashbacks, that kind of thing, 1578 01:28:39.359 --> 01:28:42.560 you know. The second one is avoidance, so I don't 1579 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:45.880 go to do the things that caused me to remember 1580 01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:52.319 the traumatic experience. The third thing is negative thoughts about 1581 01:28:52.399 --> 01:28:58.640 self negative emotions, So you know, I can't be happy, right, 1582 01:28:58.760 --> 01:29:00.199 I didn't do the best that I could or could 1583 01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:03.239 have done better. And then the last one is hypervigilance 1584 01:29:03.720 --> 01:29:09.159 or hyper arousal, so is there a trauma? And then 1585 01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:12.920 those those four symptoms with the PCL only measuring those 1586 01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:15.880 those four So when I looked at that for myself, 1587 01:29:16.199 --> 01:29:18.319 it's like, okay, well, yeah, I mean I was around 1588 01:29:18.319 --> 01:29:18.920 death and dying. 1589 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:19.960 Check. 1590 01:29:21.239 --> 01:29:24.279 I have a whole bunch of veterans that weren't. We 1591 01:29:24.359 --> 01:29:29.560 have the same symptoms, so re experiencing. Do I have nightmares? Lashbacks? 1592 01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:33.560 Now? I don't have those, you know, not at all. 1593 01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:37.640 So it's like, okay, well maybe mine's just a little 1594 01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:42.399 bit different. The avoidance piece, I didn't avoid at all. 1595 01:29:42.880 --> 01:29:45.079 I had the affinity for Like I said before, I 1596 01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:47.840 will seek out veterans. I feel more like myself when 1597 01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:50.199 I talk to veterans. Most of my friends are veterans, 1598 01:29:50.920 --> 01:29:54.399 so I'm not avoiding those things that might remind me 1599 01:29:54.479 --> 01:29:57.319 of the trauma. I go to Camp Penalton. You know, 1600 01:29:58.119 --> 01:30:00.600 I live close enough where I can hear the art fire, 1601 01:30:00.880 --> 01:30:04.560 So it's like, Okay, if I don't avoid, then I 1602 01:30:04.560 --> 01:30:08.319 don't meet that criteria either, and so then the negative, 1603 01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:14.960 negative cognitions, negative emotions, and then the hyper arousal. It's like, 1604 01:30:15.039 --> 01:30:18.800 well that was my training. So we don't call it 1605 01:30:18.920 --> 01:30:23.000 hyper arousal. We call it good situational awareness. And if 1606 01:30:23.000 --> 01:30:26.479 you have good situational awareness and you spot the ied 1607 01:30:26.920 --> 01:30:29.399 and you save people's lives, we give you a medal 1608 01:30:29.439 --> 01:30:33.279 for that. And so what we don't realize then afterwards 1609 01:30:33.319 --> 01:30:36.279 is if you don't train that away, the way that 1610 01:30:36.319 --> 01:30:39.920 your brain works is it can modify that. So now 1611 01:30:39.920 --> 01:30:42.319 I'm on the highway and I'm driving, and so I'm 1612 01:30:42.439 --> 01:30:45.039 hyper alert at all the other drivers. And then when 1613 01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:47.239 I get home and I haven't had a car accident, 1614 01:30:47.560 --> 01:30:50.760 that's sufficient for my brain to reinforce well, that's because 1615 01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:54.000 you were. You were hyper alert, So continue to be 1616 01:30:54.079 --> 01:30:57.600 hyper alert. Or you know the classic one of I 1617 01:30:57.640 --> 01:30:59.239 have to have my back to the wall when I 1618 01:30:59.279 --> 01:31:02.960 go to the restaurant on you know, because somebody may 1619 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:06.239 come in and shoot up the place. Well, that almost 1620 01:31:06.319 --> 01:31:09.680 never happens, and yet you're going to go home and say, well, 1621 01:31:09.680 --> 01:31:14.239 but if it did, I was ready. So my brain 1622 01:31:14.359 --> 01:31:18.000 is internally rewarding itself for maintaining that high level of 1623 01:31:18.840 --> 01:31:22.199 hyper arousal, and that's why sometimes you have to get 1624 01:31:22.199 --> 01:31:25.560 a reset on that, which is like the SGB or 1625 01:31:25.600 --> 01:31:28.960 some other forms of therapy. So when you put all 1626 01:31:28.960 --> 01:31:32.000 that together, it's like, Okay, then if it's not PTSD, 1627 01:31:32.359 --> 01:31:34.520 maybe it's just the adjustment, which is kind of a 1628 01:31:34.560 --> 01:31:39.520 more nebulous diagnosis, which is, hey, you have physical symptoms, 1629 01:31:39.560 --> 01:31:42.680 emotional symptoms, you know, maybe. 1630 01:31:42.560 --> 01:31:43.840 Some somatic symptoms. 1631 01:31:45.399 --> 01:31:48.119 The problem with adjustment disorders is usually tied to you, 1632 01:31:48.159 --> 01:31:51.359 all right, well, six months after whatever the adjustment is gone, 1633 01:31:52.680 --> 01:31:56.079 it's no longer adjustment disorder now, it's like it's something else. 1634 01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:59.319 So if you lost your leg in combat, okay, well, 1635 01:31:59.359 --> 01:32:02.399 for six months you have adjustment disorder, and then if 1636 01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:04.399 you're still sad about it, it's like, okay, well it's 1637 01:32:04.399 --> 01:32:07.640 not adjustment disorder anymore because the leg's gone. That's done 1638 01:32:07.960 --> 01:32:12.119 now it is you're just depressed. And so that didn't 1639 01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:15.239 make sense to me either, because I was still having 1640 01:32:15.319 --> 01:32:21.920 those same challenges ten years after I retired. Man, I 1641 01:32:21.920 --> 01:32:24.439 had like eleven years after retirement now and I'm still 1642 01:32:24.479 --> 01:32:28.239 pulled to do and still contract for my old unit. 1643 01:32:28.680 --> 01:32:31.760 So it's not PTSD. It's not adjustment disorder. The only 1644 01:32:31.800 --> 01:32:34.840 thing that made sense to me was and I talked 1645 01:32:34.840 --> 01:32:36.920 about this in the introduction too. I had a chat 1646 01:32:36.960 --> 01:32:41.399 with a Green Beret buddy in our teamhouse or our 1647 01:32:41.439 --> 01:32:45.640 team room about why do I have to deploy like 1648 01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:46.880 that Afghanistan tour? 1649 01:32:47.439 --> 01:32:48.680 Why did it have to be me? 1650 01:32:48.880 --> 01:32:51.159 Obviously I didn't go, and they sent somebody else, and 1651 01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:53.279 I'm sure they did as good a job as I 1652 01:32:53.319 --> 01:32:56.159 could have, but it had to be me. And he 1653 01:32:56.239 --> 01:32:58.680 felt the same way. And so I said, I feel 1654 01:32:58.680 --> 01:33:01.680 like I'm an addict to patre triotism or something like that, 1655 01:33:01.840 --> 01:33:05.800 like I'm just blindly doing this or something. I don't 1656 01:33:05.800 --> 01:33:10.760 know why jump forward whatever it is eight years and 1657 01:33:10.840 --> 01:33:13.600 now I'm going through the substance abuse disorder symptoms and 1658 01:33:13.640 --> 01:33:17.680 I'm like, all of these fit me if I just 1659 01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:19.600 instead of saying substance, you say. 1660 01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:20.319 Being a warrior. 1661 01:33:22.319 --> 01:33:27.960 So there's eleven symptoms for substance abuse disorder, And when 1662 01:33:28.359 --> 01:33:31.680 I teach a class about warrior withdrawal, I would go 1663 01:33:31.760 --> 01:33:34.520 through all eleven. And I don't try to define it 1664 01:33:34.560 --> 01:33:38.199 for anybody. You say, all right, whatever causes you to 1665 01:33:39.800 --> 01:33:42.199 feel like a warrior, or you label it for yourself 1666 01:33:42.279 --> 01:33:45.800 is it positive reinforcement that I'm tough. Is that what 1667 01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:47.960 I was looking for and that's why I kept climbing 1668 01:33:47.960 --> 01:33:50.399 the spear to be in the toughest, most selective unit. 1669 01:33:50.520 --> 01:33:52.399 I don't know, maybe that's what it was for me. 1670 01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:57.119 But if you take that and then you go through 1671 01:33:57.159 --> 01:33:59.800 the symptoms, is that, okay? Was I deploying more off 1672 01:33:59.840 --> 01:34:02.640 to than was healthy for me? Did I continue to 1673 01:34:02.640 --> 01:34:05.439 deploy even though it was causing me physical harm? And 1674 01:34:05.600 --> 01:34:07.680 you know it was I deploy instead of spending time 1675 01:34:07.680 --> 01:34:11.039 with family, as I spending more time trying to go 1676 01:34:11.079 --> 01:34:14.800 on deployments than is necessary? Was I trying to quit 1677 01:34:14.840 --> 01:34:16.880 deploying and I was not able to? It's like all 1678 01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:22.279 of these are substance that's substance abuse symptoms, and then. 1679 01:34:22.840 --> 01:34:24.840 The final two being tolerance and withdrawal. 1680 01:34:25.720 --> 01:34:29.319 So for me, tolerance was one deployment not enough, Two 1681 01:34:29.359 --> 01:34:33.359 deployments not enough? So I did oif one, two, three, four, five, six, 1682 01:34:33.520 --> 01:34:37.439 seven into eight? Still not enough? How to go to 1683 01:34:37.640 --> 01:34:38.960 special operations? 1684 01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:39.800 Still not enough? 1685 01:34:40.960 --> 01:34:45.279 And then the last symptom is withdrawal, which is when 1686 01:34:45.319 --> 01:34:47.640 you take that substance away. So when you're out of 1687 01:34:47.680 --> 01:34:50.039 the military and you're no longer active duty, you're no 1688 01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:53.399 longer you don't no longer feel like a warrior. You 1689 01:34:53.479 --> 01:34:58.239 have all of these withdrawal problems, which that's what I cataloged, 1690 01:34:58.359 --> 01:35:03.000 is that's the anger management, communications issues, maladaptive coping skills, 1691 01:35:03.560 --> 01:35:06.079 a loss of sense of self, loss of identity. 1692 01:35:05.640 --> 01:35:06.359 Loss of purpose. 1693 01:35:07.079 --> 01:35:10.319 And then as soon as we put you back into 1694 01:35:10.640 --> 01:35:16.800 a warrior event either like a you know, a martiall hobby, 1695 01:35:16.920 --> 01:35:18.800 like when we put you back into an MM agent, 1696 01:35:20.199 --> 01:35:22.319 you become a law enforcement officer and so you have 1697 01:35:22.359 --> 01:35:24.439 a tribe again, and you wear a uniform again, and 1698 01:35:24.479 --> 01:35:26.600 you have a sense of purpose again, and you feel 1699 01:35:26.600 --> 01:35:29.239 more like yourself. Almost all of those things go away. 1700 01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:33.000 So it's like that's how it works with substances as well. 1701 01:35:34.119 --> 01:35:37.960 If you are an alcoholic and we take you off 1702 01:35:37.960 --> 01:35:40.760 of alcohol, you have withdrawal symptoms and a small spit 1703 01:35:40.800 --> 01:35:43.239 of alcohol that we give you back those clear away, 1704 01:35:44.000 --> 01:35:46.159 which is why we use this hair of the dog 1705 01:35:46.199 --> 01:35:49.239 business when you're you know, had a wild night partying, 1706 01:35:49.880 --> 01:35:51.720 and it's like, just take a shot and you'll be regular. 1707 01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:59.039 So when I go through all of the eleven symptoms 1708 01:35:59.359 --> 01:36:01.520 with the veterans that I work with, I asked them hey, 1709 01:36:01.600 --> 01:36:05.439 just keep score. And then at the end I asked them, 1710 01:36:05.520 --> 01:36:07.079 you know, just keep in mind with your score is 1711 01:36:07.119 --> 01:36:09.520 if you have three of those symptoms, you have a 1712 01:36:09.560 --> 01:36:12.880 substance abuse diswater. If it's streen three, it's more than 1713 01:36:13.359 --> 01:36:15.960 streeen three, and six it's you know, in the mild 1714 01:36:15.960 --> 01:36:18.159 moderate range, it's more than six you get into the 1715 01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:21.000 severe range. And then for me, I'm like, I'm at 1716 01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:24.159 eleven of eleven, and so right now I'm like a 1717 01:36:24.199 --> 01:36:29.560 sober warrior. And when I would talk to the Nexus 1718 01:36:29.640 --> 01:36:33.439 guys or the Skills Bridge guys, you know, the d 1719 01:36:33.720 --> 01:36:36.199 D still thinks that the solution is you just need. 1720 01:36:36.079 --> 01:36:40.119 A job when you get out. Like, that's not quite it. 1721 01:36:40.199 --> 01:36:44.039 That's a little bit antiquated unless you just go ahead 1722 01:36:44.039 --> 01:36:47.399 and identify with whatever the job is that you get next. 1723 01:36:48.920 --> 01:36:51.319 If you stick with my substance abuse model, which is 1724 01:36:51.359 --> 01:36:54.199 the only one that seems to fit, the solution has 1725 01:36:54.239 --> 01:36:55.520 to be detox. 1726 01:36:56.399 --> 01:36:57.439 It would be good place. 1727 01:37:00.600 --> 01:37:02.960 So, like, you know, so they're saying, well, that's skills Bridge, 1728 01:37:03.000 --> 01:37:05.399 isn't it, And I'm like, no, it's not, because you 1729 01:37:05.520 --> 01:37:07.680 still pull that guy back and make him do a PFT. 1730 01:37:08.560 --> 01:37:10.319 You still pull him back and make him do all 1731 01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:12.439 of these other things like he's he's not out of 1732 01:37:12.479 --> 01:37:15.439 the military, you're still in the military, or she is 1733 01:37:15.479 --> 01:37:18.159 still in the military. And then oh, by the way, 1734 01:37:18.199 --> 01:37:20.279 when they finish their skills Bridge, there's no guarantee that 1735 01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:22.760 there's a job for them there either. So it's like, 1736 01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:28.439 you know, you may have forestalled something, but that identity 1737 01:37:28.479 --> 01:37:31.000 shift is still coming. So the detox has to be 1738 01:37:33.359 --> 01:37:36.279 zero warrior stuff. And I don't know for how long. 1739 01:37:36.479 --> 01:37:39.039 I do know that it takes thirteen weeks to make 1740 01:37:39.039 --> 01:37:42.439 a marine, you know, basically train marine, and you know 1741 01:37:42.600 --> 01:37:44.960 it takes what ten weeks to make a basically trained 1742 01:37:44.960 --> 01:37:49.079 to eleven bravo, and then we do zero on the 1743 01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:56.199 back end to undo any of that. So somewhere in 1744 01:37:56.239 --> 01:37:57.920 there you have to do that where you have to 1745 01:37:57.960 --> 01:38:03.119 find a way to help somebody get clear of that substance, 1746 01:38:03.720 --> 01:38:06.640 educate them that that's what is happening. So that's what 1747 01:38:06.680 --> 01:38:09.279 I try to do in my groups, so that you 1748 01:38:09.520 --> 01:38:13.880 if you want to go back to it, you go 1749 01:38:13.960 --> 01:38:17.000 in there clear eyed. Otherwise you do your skills Bridge. 1750 01:38:17.159 --> 01:38:19.439 It's like hey, all right, yeah, yeah, we put you 1751 01:38:19.479 --> 01:38:21.960 in rehab and then as soon as you got out 1752 01:38:22.000 --> 01:38:24.800 of rehab. We're like, we're going to a bar and 1753 01:38:25.399 --> 01:38:30.399 we're all going to drink. It's like, ah okay, and 1754 01:38:30.359 --> 01:38:31.079 then we're right. 1755 01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:31.479 Back at it. 1756 01:38:32.720 --> 01:38:36.119 And you've found some success in treating veterans in that nature. 1757 01:38:38.239 --> 01:38:42.039 So it's less of a treatment and more of what 1758 01:38:42.079 --> 01:38:45.239 I try to do is increase I mean, it does, 1759 01:38:45.439 --> 01:38:47.920 it does work, it does reduce symptoms. But more what 1760 01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:56.880 it does I think is it increases someone's openness to therapy. Gotcha, 1761 01:38:57.079 --> 01:38:59.399 even though we're like I don't like saying therapists, like 1762 01:38:59.439 --> 01:39:03.560 calling myself a therapist, because there's all these connotations along 1763 01:39:03.920 --> 01:39:06.600 with that word. Nobody wants to go to therapy. It's 1764 01:39:06.640 --> 01:39:11.159 also why you know the second but the subtitle of 1765 01:39:11.199 --> 01:39:13.399 my book is when BA NF the Loger meats bad 1766 01:39:13.399 --> 01:39:19.960 Ass motherfucker. Because PTSD is means I'm broken, it means 1767 01:39:19.960 --> 01:39:22.079 I need to be fixed. It is a symptom, it 1768 01:39:22.159 --> 01:39:24.239 is a disease. It is a disorder that I have 1769 01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:27.439 and you know you have to fix it. I don't 1770 01:39:27.439 --> 01:39:30.720 want to have that title, whereas BAMF or I will 1771 01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:33.119 take that title like yeah, And so for the BA, 1772 01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:36.479 I call it baseline adjustment due to military functioning it's like, 1773 01:39:36.520 --> 01:39:40.279 I will enroll into that group, I will learn about Okay, 1774 01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:43.239 I was trained to be this way. I was trained 1775 01:39:43.279 --> 01:39:46.880 to be hyper vigilant, called situational awareness. I was trained 1776 01:39:46.920 --> 01:39:50.000 to think of myself as a bullet sponge. They scrubbed 1777 01:39:50.000 --> 01:39:54.840 away all my personal boundaries. Yeah, you know, I was 1778 01:39:55.319 --> 01:40:00.199 trained to jump on the grenade before anybody else, So 1779 01:40:02.800 --> 01:40:05.119 you know, I was trained to seek the sound of 1780 01:40:05.119 --> 01:40:07.279 the guns, so not avoid. I was trained to have affinity. 1781 01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:09.760 So we trained you and I cite this in the 1782 01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:11.800 book too. There's you know, you got E three who 1783 01:40:11.840 --> 01:40:15.000 said PTSDs which it had to get to survive in Afghanistan. 1784 01:40:15.399 --> 01:40:19.880 It's like exactly, and then we never undid that. Nobody 1785 01:40:19.920 --> 01:40:23.159 ever told you you're a human being. You deserve to 1786 01:40:23.199 --> 01:40:26.680 have X, Y or Z, and it's okay to have emotions. 1787 01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:28.439 You don't have to shove them all down and maintain 1788 01:40:28.479 --> 01:40:29.560 your good military bearing. 1789 01:40:31.279 --> 01:40:33.840 During the process of your work with VA, Like, when 1790 01:40:34.039 --> 01:40:36.439 was it that the idea for this book for Warrior 1791 01:40:36.520 --> 01:40:40.520 withdrawal came about? 1792 01:40:41.000 --> 01:40:46.079 I had started to think through the cluster of symptoms 1793 01:40:46.760 --> 01:40:49.920 and trying to map it onto the substance abuse disorder. 1794 01:40:50.840 --> 01:40:52.840 And then while I was working at the VA, two 1795 01:40:52.920 --> 01:40:58.640 more things came up in my mind, one being Marsha's identity. 1796 01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:03.560 It's like a squirre or a chart quad chart where 1797 01:41:03.720 --> 01:41:06.600 you've either kind of know what you're going to be 1798 01:41:07.800 --> 01:41:09.600 or you don't know what you're going to be, and 1799 01:41:09.600 --> 01:41:12.399 then you either have gone through some things and try 1800 01:41:12.439 --> 01:41:14.359 some things out or you haven't gone through some things 1801 01:41:14.359 --> 01:41:17.680 and tried some things out. So where most veterans find 1802 01:41:17.720 --> 01:41:21.479 themselves because you're in that identity forming part of your 1803 01:41:21.479 --> 01:41:24.560 life at seventeen eighteen. When you enlist, you become what's 1804 01:41:24.560 --> 01:41:27.199 called identity foreclosed. It's like you are going to be 1805 01:41:28.039 --> 01:41:30.880 eleven Bravo, and you're going to be eleven Mike, and 1806 01:41:30.920 --> 01:41:33.039 you're going to be eleven Charlie, and it's like, oh, 1807 01:41:34.319 --> 01:41:35.439 I don't want to do that, I want to be 1808 01:41:35.479 --> 01:41:38.920 an MP. Sorry, your identity is foreclosed. You don't get 1809 01:41:38.920 --> 01:41:40.760 to choose. You didn't get to be a rock star. 1810 01:41:40.920 --> 01:41:43.479 You get to try out as a carpenter or whatever. 1811 01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:47.159 You're a soldier now and that is who you are, 1812 01:41:47.359 --> 01:41:50.439 identity foreclosure. And then then when you get out, it's 1813 01:41:50.479 --> 01:41:56.199 the various culturation model where civilians are the predominant culture 1814 01:41:56.319 --> 01:41:58.279 and we want you to assimilate, which means you give 1815 01:41:58.399 --> 01:42:01.399 up all of your warriors self. You give up all 1816 01:42:01.399 --> 01:42:09.000 those values values like integrity, accountability, responsibility, punctuality. You'd be 1817 01:42:09.119 --> 01:42:11.399 like all the other civilians, especially here in southern California. 1818 01:42:11.439 --> 01:42:13.399 When you tell somebody to show up at three o'clock, 1819 01:42:13.479 --> 01:42:13.880 it's like. 1820 01:42:15.159 --> 01:42:16.880 Maybe they do, maybe they don't. 1821 01:42:17.399 --> 01:42:19.239 Three thirties close enough. 1822 01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:21.039 See that that's an East Coast thing. 1823 01:42:22.399 --> 01:42:25.840 Yeah, so then you know, okay, well, what we aim 1824 01:42:25.920 --> 01:42:29.479 for is for you to be integrated. Right, I'll keep 1825 01:42:29.520 --> 01:42:31.800 those things that I like about my warrior yourself, and 1826 01:42:31.840 --> 01:42:34.600 I will make them work in the civilian environment. 1827 01:42:35.000 --> 01:42:36.159 That's very hard to do. 1828 01:42:36.600 --> 01:42:38.279 So we end up kind of going below the water 1829 01:42:38.439 --> 01:42:42.079 line where we're either separated, which is I only have 1830 01:42:42.199 --> 01:42:45.199 veteran friends, I only hang out with veterans. I will 1831 01:42:45.239 --> 01:42:48.199 only do things I'm a law enforcement office or whatever 1832 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:52.439 it is, and I won't engage in the civilian culture. 1833 01:42:53.680 --> 01:42:55.239 But more often than not, and this is where we 1834 01:42:55.319 --> 01:42:57.720 have that problem at the six months to one year mark, 1835 01:42:57.880 --> 01:43:01.840 is you're marginalized. So I'm not they're a soldier, nor 1836 01:43:01.880 --> 01:43:04.920 am I a civilian, And that's when we have the 1837 01:43:04.960 --> 01:43:08.840 depression all of the issues like my guy that failed 1838 01:43:08.880 --> 01:43:11.079 aiit it's like, I'm not even a soldier. 1839 01:43:11.640 --> 01:43:12.399 Who the hell am I? 1840 01:43:13.840 --> 01:43:18.640 So when I added all that, sort of halfway through 1841 01:43:18.640 --> 01:43:24.319 my postdoc year, I started the BANF groups and decided 1842 01:43:24.359 --> 01:43:25.560 to sit down and write the book. 1843 01:43:27.960 --> 01:43:31.560 And I mean, I presumably the book is about all 1844 01:43:31.600 --> 01:43:34.079 these things we've just been talking about, But I mean, 1845 01:43:34.359 --> 01:43:36.159 what's in the book? Who did you write it for? 1846 01:43:38.199 --> 01:43:42.479 So I basically wrote it for the veteran who is 1847 01:43:42.600 --> 01:43:46.840 just getting out, so that they can understand. And I 1848 01:43:46.840 --> 01:43:49.079 didn't want to talk about myself at all. And then 1849 01:43:49.119 --> 01:43:51.800 I was told by the publishers, like, yeah, you can't 1850 01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:52.640 write a textbook. 1851 01:43:53.560 --> 01:43:55.680 Nobody's going to buy it. You have to tell your story, 1852 01:43:56.399 --> 01:43:58.479 and I accept that as I note. 1853 01:43:58.479 --> 01:44:00.640 I think in the book, like at the Unit is 1854 01:44:00.680 --> 01:44:03.359 the first time I ever got exposed to PTSD, And 1855 01:44:04.640 --> 01:44:07.399 it's a sergeant major who came in and his his 1856 01:44:07.600 --> 01:44:12.640 version of what happened kind of manifested as alcoholism. 1857 01:44:13.800 --> 01:44:16.600 And it was hard to track because the guys are. 1858 01:44:16.640 --> 01:44:22.159 So good that even his seventy percent was still, you know, 1859 01:44:22.439 --> 01:44:27.039 enough to be some other guys one hundred percent until 1860 01:44:27.039 --> 01:44:29.439 we had a catash. Until he had a catastrophic opsect 1861 01:44:29.680 --> 01:44:35.560 issue and so he got fired and sent away. So 1862 01:44:35.600 --> 01:44:38.560 he's talking to us about that, and it's at that 1863 01:44:38.640 --> 01:44:41.000 point in time that I reached out so active duty 1864 01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:45.600 to my opsite and I said. 1865 01:44:43.960 --> 01:44:45.840 You were there when there were a couple of suicides 1866 01:44:45.840 --> 01:44:48.960 too in the unit, weren't you around that time frame 1867 01:44:52.239 --> 01:44:54.039 two thousand and ten? 1868 01:44:54.600 --> 01:45:01.239 I don't ish not that I recall, you know, my 1869 01:45:01.399 --> 01:45:02.119 memories all. 1870 01:45:02.399 --> 01:45:07.079 I don't recall the. 1871 01:45:05.960 --> 01:45:13.680 Motor vehicle accidents as well, But yeah, I don't recall specifically. 1872 01:45:14.640 --> 01:45:16.239 Either way. 1873 01:45:16.319 --> 01:45:20.159 Because that sergeant Major had kind of been open about it, 1874 01:45:21.640 --> 01:45:24.520 I feel like I owe it to all the other 1875 01:45:24.600 --> 01:45:27.079 veterans to say, like, okay, well if this happened to 1876 01:45:27.159 --> 01:45:28.840 me as a guy who climbed all the way. 1877 01:45:28.720 --> 01:45:31.359 To the tip of the spear, then you know. 1878 01:45:31.319 --> 01:45:35.600 It's the umbrella that allows you to also then say 1879 01:45:35.600 --> 01:45:36.439 it's okay to be sick. 1880 01:45:36.479 --> 01:45:38.640 That guy says he was sad, and it's okay for 1881 01:45:38.680 --> 01:45:40.520 me to say that I'm right right. 1882 01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:44.000 So that's kind of the beginning part of the book 1883 01:45:44.079 --> 01:45:46.399 is a lot of what we talked about, and then 1884 01:45:46.680 --> 01:45:48.279 the back end of the book is kind of going 1885 01:45:48.319 --> 01:45:52.239 through the symptoms how it's different from PTSD, how it's 1886 01:45:52.279 --> 01:45:55.760 different from adjustment disorder, and then a little bit about 1887 01:45:55.880 --> 01:45:57.039 the groups that I would run. 1888 01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:01.520 So the book is out now, it's called Warrior Withdrawal. 1889 01:46:01.920 --> 01:46:04.119 We'll have links down the description for folks who want 1890 01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:06.560 to check it out. Where's the best place they for 1891 01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:09.319 people to go buy it? 1892 01:46:09.399 --> 01:46:12.359 Probably Amazon, Okay, it's probably the easiest. Or they can 1893 01:46:12.359 --> 01:46:14.319 go to the publisher, Dallas Books. 1894 01:46:15.840 --> 01:46:18.560 And then another topic you had mentioned to me, I 1895 01:46:18.560 --> 01:46:20.239 don't know if you want to get into it or 1896 01:46:20.239 --> 01:46:22.439 how deep you want to get into it, about the 1897 01:46:22.520 --> 01:46:27.039 courts being in some instances prejudiced against veterans, but like 1898 01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:30.840 just simply for their service, that you know, this guy's 1899 01:46:30.840 --> 01:46:34.640 a highly trained combat killer, blah blah blah. 1900 01:46:34.840 --> 01:46:38.119 So that's a great segue too, because I published a book, 1901 01:46:38.279 --> 01:46:43.479 and because there are some literary devices to sort of 1902 01:46:44.640 --> 01:46:47.760 make manifestor make it easier to understand the challenges that 1903 01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:50.720 are going inside of somebody's head, that the book that 1904 01:46:50.760 --> 01:46:52.600 I publish is being used against me in a court 1905 01:46:52.600 --> 01:46:53.720 of law during my divorce. 1906 01:46:54.960 --> 01:46:57.520 So thinking, you know, maybe. 1907 01:46:57.239 --> 01:46:59.479 This was unique to me again, I reached out to 1908 01:46:59.520 --> 01:47:03.800 some here and I realized that this is extremely common 1909 01:47:04.680 --> 01:47:10.079 for veterans as as a community to struggle in the 1910 01:47:10.119 --> 01:47:14.760 family court systems because my profession. 1911 01:47:14.399 --> 01:47:15.680 Is being used against me. 1912 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:20.399 And you know, there's some attorneys are sneaky and they'll 1913 01:47:20.439 --> 01:47:21.479 try to say like, all right, do you have a 1914 01:47:21.560 --> 01:47:24.319 VA disability rating? Okay, well, isn't it true that you 1915 01:47:24.399 --> 01:47:26.479 have you know, PTSD, and aren't you going to go 1916 01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:28.920 shoot up the school? And I'm like no, and no 1917 01:47:29.560 --> 01:47:32.680 or sorry first, none of your business and no. You know, 1918 01:47:32.760 --> 01:47:38.880 the irony is that going back to that Aladdin line 1919 01:47:39.119 --> 01:47:42.640 infinite Cosmic Power ADBD, living space, It's like, yeah, you know, 1920 01:47:43.279 --> 01:47:45.800 I have all of the training in the world, and 1921 01:47:45.840 --> 01:47:48.479 it's like that meme from the Patriot where hey, if 1922 01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:53.000 you don't have the capacity for violence, then you doing 1923 01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:54.720 nothing is just being a pussy. 1924 01:47:54.960 --> 01:47:55.119 You know. 1925 01:47:55.119 --> 01:48:00.119 It's like, if you so the guy who has all 1926 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:03.199 of the control to manage all of this violence, that's me. 1927 01:48:03.359 --> 01:48:07.640 I'm the least the last person you should be afraid of. 1928 01:48:07.680 --> 01:48:11.319 And yet the family courts don't understand that. And so 1929 01:48:11.920 --> 01:48:15.920 anybody whose spouse goes to the family courts because there's 1930 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:19.079 no requirement for actual evidence and you can just get 1931 01:48:19.119 --> 01:48:22.920 a restraining order right away and so it's so common 1932 01:48:22.960 --> 01:48:26.079 that there's reddits about what's called the silver bullet divorce, 1933 01:48:26.399 --> 01:48:30.520 where your spouse can just allege domestic violence, allege child abuse, 1934 01:48:31.199 --> 01:48:37.039 and then that sets in motion the dynamics of the 1935 01:48:37.119 --> 01:48:41.239 court that now you're constantly on the defensive and you 1936 01:48:41.279 --> 01:48:44.159 can't even do what you need to do. And then 1937 01:48:44.239 --> 01:48:46.880 if you step out of line even slightly, so even 1938 01:48:46.920 --> 01:48:50.920 if the domestic violence temporary restraining order is garbage, if you, 1939 01:48:51.079 --> 01:48:56.119 by accident broke the three hundred foot boundary, now you 1940 01:48:56.159 --> 01:48:59.479 have a criminal charge that's going to get upheld, and 1941 01:48:59.520 --> 01:49:02.079 you lose your rights to your kids. And so that's 1942 01:49:02.119 --> 01:49:04.359 not just happening to me. I find that this is happening, 1943 01:49:04.359 --> 01:49:10.079 and among my patients, I do twenty to twenty five 1944 01:49:10.159 --> 01:49:12.880 unique intakes per week. I've done over a thousand intakes 1945 01:49:12.880 --> 01:49:16.960 of veterans in the last couple of years, and almost 1946 01:49:17.000 --> 01:49:20.760 always I will carry one or two who are in 1947 01:49:20.760 --> 01:49:25.600 a similar situation where I have a guy that I 1948 01:49:25.720 --> 01:49:29.199 talked to you ab out that long ago who thinks 1949 01:49:29.239 --> 01:49:37.239 he has PTSD because of a car crash. 1950 01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:36.800 And he drives for uber. 1951 01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:39.319 So I'm like, okay, well we're back to that, Like, hey, 1952 01:49:39.359 --> 01:49:43.039 avoidance and reexperiencing. These don't quite match up, and so 1953 01:49:43.119 --> 01:49:46.840 we delve more into his personal history, and he's got 1954 01:49:46.880 --> 01:49:50.680 an extremely awful situation in his marriage, and you know, 1955 01:49:50.680 --> 01:49:53.039 there's events in his life that are going to cause 1956 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:54.319 it to come to a head here in the next 1957 01:49:54.359 --> 01:49:54.840 year or two. 1958 01:49:55.319 --> 01:49:59.079 Like that may be why you're having these nightmares. 1959 01:50:00.079 --> 01:50:05.720 Your brain is unable to explain, you know, appending divorce 1960 01:50:05.800 --> 01:50:08.520 in a way that makes sense. So it goes back 1961 01:50:08.600 --> 01:50:11.119 to the last time you were ever this scared and 1962 01:50:11.159 --> 01:50:14.439 afraid of an impending wreck, and so it plays that 1963 01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:18.039 out in your head as a car crash. 1964 01:50:18.159 --> 01:50:23.319 It's unreal to me that a person that goes out 1965 01:50:23.359 --> 01:50:26.680 and gets treatment, you know, that goes through the process 1966 01:50:26.760 --> 01:50:30.439 to get help and has a VA disability rating, they're 1967 01:50:30.479 --> 01:50:33.079 going in to see someone like you, they're going to therapy, 1968 01:50:34.039 --> 01:50:36.960 and the courts see that as derogatory information that they 1969 01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:39.600 can use against you, as if you're some sort of 1970 01:50:39.920 --> 01:50:42.560 menace to society, even though you don't have a criminal record. 1971 01:50:43.880 --> 01:50:47.119 Yeah, and so we're stuck with the conundrum again. Where 1972 01:50:47.640 --> 01:50:49.920 so again the book is written for the veteran to 1973 01:50:50.000 --> 01:50:55.119 read to learn more about themselves, and I almost I 1974 01:50:55.159 --> 01:50:57.720 believe that more likely than not, it's going to be 1975 01:50:57.760 --> 01:51:00.319 the spouse that buys it or somebody that can cares 1976 01:51:00.319 --> 01:51:02.199 for the veteran that buys it. And it's like, hey, 1977 01:51:02.239 --> 01:51:08.279 you read this thing because this is you, and it's 1978 01:51:08.319 --> 01:51:12.119 another barrier to treatment for me. Already, I get veterans 1979 01:51:12.119 --> 01:51:15.279 that don't want a PTSD diagnosis, or they're concerned about 1980 01:51:15.279 --> 01:51:18.800 who can see their health record because they're concerned that 1981 01:51:18.840 --> 01:51:22.520 they'll lose their security clearance, or you know, everybody's heard 1982 01:51:22.680 --> 01:51:26.600 some apocryphal story about somebody who had a PTSD diagnosis 1983 01:51:26.640 --> 01:51:28.800 and it got leaked and then they took away their weapons. 1984 01:51:28.920 --> 01:51:32.720 It's like, that's not supposed to happen. That's not how. 1985 01:51:32.680 --> 01:51:38.640 Your medical record is protected. And yet you know it 1986 01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:41.520 is a barrier to treatment. Guys will not come in, 1987 01:51:42.159 --> 01:51:44.960 they will not admit that anything is wrong because they 1988 01:51:45.039 --> 01:51:46.720 don't want to lose access to these things. 1989 01:51:46.720 --> 01:51:48.359 And so now this is just another one. 1990 01:51:50.439 --> 01:51:56.039 And so somewhat ironically or not ironically, and maybe working 1991 01:51:56.039 --> 01:51:59.279 on another book to try to create a guide book 1992 01:51:59.359 --> 01:52:02.279 for veterans and divorce to explain to them, we've just 1993 01:52:02.399 --> 01:52:07.640 added moral injury into the Diagnostics Statistics manual. So that 1994 01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:12.119 kind of compounds the warrior withdrawal, stuff like justice is 1995 01:52:12.159 --> 01:52:15.479 not served or I thought I was going over to 1996 01:52:16.279 --> 01:52:20.000 Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction and then that 1997 01:52:20.079 --> 01:52:22.479 wasn't the case, and so in my mind it's like, well, 1998 01:52:22.600 --> 01:52:24.800 was it all worth it? Or more recently, we had 1999 01:52:24.840 --> 01:52:28.439 all those guys that you know, twenty years of combat 2000 01:52:28.560 --> 01:52:33.880 in Afghanistan and for nothing, and so that regenerates issues 2001 01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:38.720 in veterans' minds of this moral injury because we do 2002 01:52:38.840 --> 01:52:42.279 the right thing, we follow the rules. I mean there's 2003 01:52:42.319 --> 01:52:44.800 a ten percent of us to get Article fifteen. Of course, 2004 01:52:45.279 --> 01:52:49.239 the pituority of guys follow the rules, and we believe 2005 01:52:49.520 --> 01:52:54.279 in truth, justice the American way. We have honor, courage, commitment, integrity, 2006 01:52:54.600 --> 01:53:00.520 and the opposite side doesn't. For I can think of 2007 01:53:00.560 --> 01:53:03.720 ten cases off the top of my head, false child 2008 01:53:03.720 --> 01:53:10.840 abuse allegations, false domestic violence allegations, whatever technique, tactic, or 2009 01:53:10.840 --> 01:53:14.960 procedure where they've got TTPs to box you into a 2010 01:53:14.960 --> 01:53:18.399 hole where you can't even fight out of it. And 2011 01:53:18.960 --> 01:53:23.880 the veteran like me included, I trust that the system 2012 01:53:23.960 --> 01:53:26.560 is going to figure this out, and unfortunately the system 2013 01:53:26.560 --> 01:53:29.439 still runs on money. It's like, what's going to happen. First, 2014 01:53:29.439 --> 01:53:31.439 does the system figure it out or does the money 2015 01:53:31.520 --> 01:53:31.920 run out? 2016 01:53:32.399 --> 01:53:38.479 And that's an awful place to be so again, because 2017 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:40.560 most divorces. 2018 01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:44.920 Happen within six months of separation from the military. You 2019 01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:47.560 have the veteran who has loss of identity, loss of 2020 01:53:47.640 --> 01:53:51.000 sense of purposes, relying on substances, whatever it takes to 2021 01:53:51.039 --> 01:53:53.840 get through the day, and now their spouse is accusing 2022 01:53:53.920 --> 01:53:58.279 them of being a monster and filing, you know, to 2023 01:53:58.439 --> 01:54:01.399 move away, and in the court this guy is crazy. 2024 01:54:01.439 --> 01:54:07.000 He has all these guns. Uh, he's gonna go kill everybody. 2025 01:54:07.039 --> 01:54:09.760 And then you know, all of those things that you 2026 01:54:09.880 --> 01:54:15.479 left the military for get stripped from you, your family, 2027 01:54:15.720 --> 01:54:18.960 your kids, and then you're left with, you know, an 2028 01:54:19.000 --> 01:54:20.720 empty house and it's like, what do I do? 2029 01:54:21.119 --> 01:54:24.119 Yeah, and we know what a lot of guys do. Unfortunately, 2030 01:54:24.279 --> 01:54:32.279 right man, anything else that we haven't talked about, vorpiss 2031 01:54:32.319 --> 01:54:33.880 that you want to make sure we cover tonight. 2032 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:39.239 So I am on the board of this nonprofit called 2033 01:54:39.319 --> 01:54:45.720 Operation Shield. It's we're trying to grow into more states. 2034 01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:49.399 We're really only in California for now, and what we're 2035 01:54:49.399 --> 01:54:50.960 trying to do is bridge that gap. 2036 01:54:51.039 --> 01:54:51.760 So catch the. 2037 01:54:53.319 --> 01:54:59.600 Active duty soldier sailor, airman, marine or guardian before they 2038 01:54:59.640 --> 01:55:02.000 get out out and there's that kind of dead space 2039 01:55:02.319 --> 01:55:06.520 between their enrollment into the VA where we can provide 2040 01:55:06.600 --> 01:55:12.159 mental health services for them. 2041 01:55:12.199 --> 01:55:16.039 So Warrior Withdrawal is out now. People can find it 2042 01:55:16.079 --> 01:55:21.319 on Amazon. Maybe a second book coming. Yeah, Varpus, thanks 2043 01:55:21.319 --> 01:55:24.840 for sharing your story with us tonight, Sir, thanks for 2044 01:55:24.880 --> 01:55:28.159 having me any final thoughts before we roll out of 2045 01:55:28.159 --> 01:55:28.680 here tonight. 2046 01:55:30.319 --> 01:55:32.359 I would just say to all the veterans out there, 2047 01:55:32.359 --> 01:55:35.199 you're not broken. You don't need to be fixed, just 2048 01:55:35.239 --> 01:55:35.880 need training. 2049 01:55:37.239 --> 01:55:40.880 Absolutely. Thank you Varpus, and thank you everyone who watches tonight. 2050 01:55:42.159 --> 01:55:43.880 Maybe there's a veteran in your life that you want 2051 01:55:43.920 --> 01:55:47.039 to share this video with or get, or get Varpus's 2052 01:55:47.039 --> 01:55:51.479 book for so we'll see all of you guys next time. 2053 01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:56.119 Thanks for joining us tonight. Hey guys, I want to 2054 01:55:56.159 --> 01:55:58.439 tell all of you today about a new newsletter that 2055 01:55:58.479 --> 01:56:02.319 we're launching that encompasses both the Teamhouse podcast, the eyes 2056 01:56:02.399 --> 01:56:06.439 On podcast, and the high Side News outlet which I 2057 01:56:06.560 --> 01:56:10.800 run with Sean Naylor. The newsletter is gonna be once 2058 01:56:10.840 --> 01:56:13.680 a week. It's gonna come into your inbox and you're 2059 01:56:13.680 --> 01:56:16.880 gonna get the most current podcasts on eyes On and 2060 01:56:16.960 --> 01:56:21.640 the Teamhouse and whatever's topical or current on the high side. 2061 01:56:21.760 --> 01:56:23.800 So it's another way for us to get the information 2062 01:56:23.920 --> 01:56:27.720 out to you as social media algorithms are pretty iffy 2063 01:56:27.880 --> 01:56:30.239 and you never really know what you're gonna get. So 2064 01:56:30.359 --> 01:56:32.479 this is a once a week email. 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