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For certification on full term, see votaphone 30 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:22.040 dot I E forward slash terms GIA. 31 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:23.480 Welcome back to the Jay Birds Show. 32 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:27.439 How you doing great to be here? Bubba Booie, Howard Stuttenhall, 33 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:29.680 I'm not doing I'm not gonna bomb the show at 34 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:33.760 the very beginning. Now I'm doing good man. However, you 35 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:40.719 been You're one of the most busiest podcasters, so you know. 36 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:44.359 Yeah, well I'm really working hard to make a fake 37 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:45.799 job into a real job. 38 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:47.000 Yeah se. 39 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:52.480 Podcasting isn't like an actual necessary part of society in 40 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:52.959 any way. 41 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.560 But you know, no, that's wrong. Podcasting is vital. Podcasting 42 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.760 is the essence the voice of the people nowadays, even 43 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:02.799 though we despise and we hate the people. But you know, 44 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:06.079 it's just oh, you're right, you're right, you're right. 45 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:11.759 So but anyway, we're here to discuss something that we're 46 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.680 actually supposed to talk about on the last episode, but 47 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:16.479 then you and I got distracted and it turned into 48 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.639 an hour long conversation about something else. Yeah, we're here 49 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:22.599 to talk about what is in my mind. I'm pretty 50 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:28.560 interesting underdiscussed film Phantom Threat. So, Gia, do you want 51 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.319 to introduce it a little bit before we jump into 52 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:30.879 the discussion. 53 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.319 Sure, But before you do that, let me distract you 54 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.000 once again by saying that was a great essay you 55 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:41.120 did on James Lindsay that I read it this morning, 56 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.319 and I don't know, like it's very you know what's funny? 57 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.360 I think I think I know how James Lindsay got 58 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:53.120 the idea that the woke greater maoists. Do you have 59 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:56.159 to be an old head to know this? Okay? Okay, 60 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.680 he got this idea because back in the Therminor Made Days. 61 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:03.000 If you remember, I was I was integral p Well, 62 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.199 I wasn't integral part I was one of the writers. 63 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:10.120 We had the idea of of like the right wing 64 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:15.439 has to read like Leninism, We have to read lenin Okay, 65 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.159 that's how you win a sort of like cultural revolution 66 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:22.439 and and the sort of and then and then Carl 67 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:24.560 is bad. I think I don't know if he's around. 68 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:27.919 Apparently he's still kicking around an alerker all but my 69 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:32.639 good friend Carl's uh he also talked about this, and 70 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.759 so I think like some wires got crossed where James 71 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:42.360 Lindsay now believes that the woke right is like Maoism 72 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.120 and Leninism, and I think this is all due to 73 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:46.599 Thermoor magazine. 74 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.199 So oh see, I think that is a much that 75 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:52.879 you or you were being much too kind. I think 76 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.800 that basically it is a much lazier thing, which is yeah, 77 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.680 he has defined he has defined the term so that 78 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:07.080 anyone he doesn't like is woke, and woke is inherently communist. 79 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:10.280 So basically everyone I don't like is a communist the 80 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.639 James Lindsay guide to discourse, and it's basically probably correct. 81 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.480 That is probably the correct take, because I'm just I'm 82 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:20.199 stretching it. I'm stretching my niche on my magazine. That 83 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:22.639 was a part of way too in terms of importance 84 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:26.399 of discourse. So but anyways, that yeah. 85 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:30.560 So probably I probably shouldn't say this, uh, but I 86 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:35.439 have not not Lindsay, but another one of the sort 87 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:40.439 of anti woke right crowd coming on my podcast soon. Wow, 88 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:43.959 And I'm really not sure how it's gonna go because 89 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.519 I haven't really played my hand yet and I am 90 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.160 genuinely interested in Uh no, no, this one's much dumber. 91 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:55.720 I won't say who because it might happen, but and 92 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.160 I was. I was pretty upfront. I was like, hey, 93 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:59.040 I won't have a conversation about the woke, right, that's 94 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:03.120 all I say. I'm not entirely sure how that's gonna go, 95 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:06.160 because the more I dug into it. And that's sort 96 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:08.160 of why I wanted to do a review of one 97 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:09.519 of his pieces, because I was like, all right, like 98 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:11.720 I make fun of this guy enough, and I know 99 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.519 what he says in short form, but like, let's let's 100 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:16.319 give him the benefit of the doubt, Like let's dig 101 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:20.319 into you know, something that should have taken him a 102 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.120 long time to come up with write a long This 103 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.399 should be him at his best. I was not impressed. 104 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:30.600 But enough about Lindsay, because look, man, if you want 105 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.439 to get me distracted, that is a way to get 106 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:32.920 me distracted. 107 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.519 Yeah, OK, you're pro wrestling with me. 108 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.279 So anyways, Yeah, so we're here to talk about the 109 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:47.000 twenty seventeen film by Paul Thomas Anderson Phantom Thread. So 110 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.560 I'll be honest, I was not super excited initially, Like 111 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:53.680 I did not think this is a movie that I 112 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:56.160 would like because it's look, it's a movie about a 113 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.040 fashion designer, like that sounds pretty dumb if I'm to 114 00:05:59.079 --> 00:06:04.480 be brutally honest, but is really fascinating so effectively, just 115 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:10.319 in broad Strokes, this movie is sort of a drama 116 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:20.560 concerning the relationship between fashion designer Reynolds Woodcock Cyreal, his sister, 117 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.680 and then Alma sort of the main character, a woman 118 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:27.800 who he ends up falling in love with. Broad Strokes, 119 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:33.040 this movie has a very fascinating discussion about the relationship 120 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.240 between genius and a muse, and then also the kind 121 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.439 of different ways in which femininity encounters and sort of 122 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.360 breaks down masculine genius. I think there are multiple ways 123 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:46.920 to look at it, none of which I think were 124 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:52.319 exactly what the director was necessarily desiring to come to express. 125 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:54.800 And then maybe we can get into this later Geoe. 126 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.079 But I think there's a fascinating sort of like alternate 127 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.319 reading as well, which is definitely not what the or 128 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:02.720 the movie is trying to talk about, but is worth discussing. 129 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:04.959 Maybe later, Well, I. 130 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.480 Think that you said about female the sort of female 131 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:14.160 energy hobbling in a weird way, the genius of the masculine. 132 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.000 I can see it somewhat, but I see more of 133 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:21.959 a reciprocal relationship there. I know we're getting ahead of bat. 134 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:26.040 We'll explain. I think that me being like a land 135 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.560 SHARKI and malest on the right, I think that there 136 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:35.040 is a powerful phonic relationship there that is destructive. I 137 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.240 will grant you it is destructive, but it's also sustaining 138 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:41.120 if you But we can haggle over the ending of 139 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:43.079 the film. So spoiler alerts, we're gonna get into a 140 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:45.720 lot of spoiler alerts. But uh oh yeah, I didn't 141 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:48.240 think that adds jail before I do my bit, so. 142 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:49.600 Oh not at all. 143 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:55.319 So in sort of the beginning of the movie, we're 144 00:07:55.480 --> 00:08:00.000 introduced to Reynolds. He his sister is his business partner 145 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:04.720 at this extremely successful fashion house that you know, provides 146 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.240 you know, addresses to the rich and famous. 147 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.759 Yeah, this is an actual house, by the way. It's like, 148 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.839 this is the old school style of fashion design. 149 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.279 Yeah, right, And we see him, you know, when the 150 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.879 initial kind of start of the movie with a woman 151 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:21.240 who's sort of his muse and he's sick and tired 152 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:21.680 of her. 153 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:22.160 Uh. 154 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:25.000 He basically you know, ends the relationship and so to 155 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.720 clear his head, you know, after this traumatic uh you know, breakup, 156 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:32.240 and we see him throughout it being very much disturbed 157 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:36.159 by in a social conflict, right, he cannot create under 158 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:38.960 these circumstances. So he goes to the country and in 159 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.279 a diner he meets this girl, Alma. He sort of 160 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:44.720 falls in love with her, although what's interesting is that 161 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:46.879 it seems that he falls in love with her more 162 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.679 as a muse than as a romantic partner. Yeah, their 163 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.879 relationship kind of you know Burgeons, there's you know, ultimately 164 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:59.440 their relationship falls apart. But what's interesting is that their 165 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.200 relationship is sort of saved by his sickness. He gets 166 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:08.159 very very ill, and to sort of continue this process, 167 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.600 we find out that she is she's poisoning him. This 168 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.840 is much basically, yeah, it's Munchausen by proxy, so that 169 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:19.840 he can sort of reduce him to an infantile level. 170 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.960 They can bond. Because there's also a very bizarre relationship 171 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.320 between our main character and his mother. We'll get into 172 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:32.720 that later. And then apparently as the movie ends they 173 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.919 have a happy domestic life and his creative work suffers. 174 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.759 So big picture, I think that they're sort of fascinating. 175 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:44.480 Three motifs, three distinct female motifs. There is Alma, right, 176 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:50.120 who is a romantic relationship with Reynolds, obviously a very 177 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:53.960 dysfunctional one. There's Cyril, his sister, who has sort of 178 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:58.320 a business yet still feminine relationship. And then also his mother, 179 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.240 who both teaches him how to so teach him how 180 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:06.000 to create, and then after she dies sort of recurrently 181 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.039 appears in his dreams talking to him. So those are 182 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.879 the three primary female archetypes. But I'll throw it to you, Geo. 183 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:16.399 No, that's great. That's a great setup because you have 184 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:20.080 a very powerful feminine influence in all three of them. 185 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:22.960 It's very similar to what me and a friend. I 186 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:24.759 don't know if I could still mention his name, because 187 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.600 you've gotten the trouble. Recently, we were talking about the 188 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:32.399 films of Vincent Gallo and no, sorry I was talking 189 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.879 about with him, but I was also talking about with 190 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:38.480 my Frank Tino Corner his theory on Vincent Gallows the 191 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:44.559 Brown Bunny, how each female he encounters is a Youngian 192 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:50.000 archetypal mother maiden crone iteration of Chloe Savini's character. If 193 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.759 you've ever watched The Brown Bunny, it's very similar here. 194 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:58.000 There is a maiden mother crone distinction that the feminine 195 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:05.600 serves as the unconscious shadow self, the anima of Reynolds. 196 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.279 So this isn't the I believe the nineteen fifties this 197 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:15.080 is when fashion was starting to change and where you had, 198 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:17.120 like still you have like a lot of very high 199 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:20.440 key designers that were doing a lot of private commissions 200 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.120 for very rich and famous people, very rich and powerful 201 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:27.000 women such as this one. I think the one he 202 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.360 designs a wedding dress for is the Princess of Belgium 203 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:30.159 or something like that. 204 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.000 Yeah, yeah, I think it's the Belgian princess. 205 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:32.639 Yeah. 206 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.399 And which is interesting enough, isn't it implied because it's 207 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.679 never directly stated. But Alma is not British. 208 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.399 It is Belgian. 209 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:43.080 Oh I thought it was. 210 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.919 She could have been Belgian, but yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 211 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:49.039 I think because she has sort of a French accent. 212 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:50.559 I guess I don't know anyway, I don't know anything 213 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:51.519 about Europe. Sorry. 214 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.559 Well he he initially is drawn to her because the 215 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.240 actual actress what's her name, Kramps, who I believe was 216 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:00.519 in a lot of other Paul Thomas Anderson films because 217 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:04.639 a lot of directors, they'll recycle different actors and actresses. 218 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:09.480 I mean, well, of course you know there will be blood. Right, 219 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.120 was that that was Paul Thomas Anderson? 220 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:11.399 Right? 221 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:12.039 Uh? 222 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.159 Oh, shoot, I should know this. I don't know anything 223 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:14.919 about film. 224 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:22.159 I believe that was also Pta. Yeah, uh with with 225 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.840 with Danio day Lewis. Right, so Dania day Lewis, he's 226 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:25.879 playing this fast? 227 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:27.279 It was it was Pta? 228 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:31.840 Yeah, yeah, so Dana day Lewis, he's this old school 229 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.519 fashion designer. Of course, fashion is changing to more mainstream 230 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.519 brands that are accessible. There is this sort of leveling 231 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.399 of high fashion where people that are in the petty 232 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:44.679 bourgeoisie or in like the sort of upper middle classes 233 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.399 can afford different dresses by designers nowadays. We know this. 234 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.879 I mean you have to be like, very very rich 235 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.759 and famous to have a personal designer nowadays. Right, So 236 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:03.960 this is still where fashion, this area of making serviceable 237 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:10.679 dresses for special events. It wasn't exactly the runway fashion 238 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:14.600 that's very highly adjacent to the art world. And so 239 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.919 you have this designer who's sort of a dinosaur, and 240 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.120 he's on his way out, and it's implied that a 241 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:24.240 lot of his clients are going to more of these affordable, 242 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:29.200 mainstream fashion designer houses or that are rather factories, like 243 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.279 Champaul Gautier for example. 244 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:33.759 This podcast is supported by The Real Real. 245 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:37.320 You know what I love most about the holidays? Giving gifts, 246 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.720 but not just any gifts, real gifts, thoughtful gifts. 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With no ordering fees on purchase 270 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:55.519 and easy activation. Me to You gift cards are the 271 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.440 safe and secure choice. Find us online at meto you 272 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.720 dot Ie me to You supporting Irish retail. 273 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.159 And you have the house designer with the name He 274 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.320 lives in this mansion that's of course paid for by 275 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.720 a very successful patron old woman that he tries to 276 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:16.320 make look beautiful. And he has an army of seamstresses. 277 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:21.720 And I know this because my great grandmother was actually 278 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.039 in the It was a seamstress and all that. So 279 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:29.039 he has an army of seamstresses that handmake everything, and 280 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.440 he personally sows the label of the house behind the 281 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:37.879 dress of the Woodcock House. And as it progresses through 282 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.240 the film, he's at his wits end with his one muse. 283 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:45.080 Then he discovers the what's her name in the film 284 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:45.960 the Crimps woman? 285 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:52.240 Her name is Alma, Oh. 286 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:56.240 Yeah, olmah. So then Olma has these broad shoulders, is tall, 287 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.200 it's skinny, basically perfect runway model, fashion designer, like you know, 288 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.399 fashion easter, right, But she's like she's working in this 289 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:09.200 restaurant where she's a waitress. And immediately, like literally from 290 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:13.240 their first encounter, she goes right to in fanalizing him 291 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:18.440 in a weird way. And see she he orders this 292 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.759 huge meal and he she writes him a note of 293 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:28.200 her phone number in address saying for the hungry boy. Right, 294 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:30.080 so you know what this is going to be about, 295 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:34.559 even though he's way older than her. So then as 296 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.320 the film goes on, she works in the house. I 297 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.919 believe she has some connection to the to being a 298 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.720 seamstress and all that. And you have to realize that 299 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:49.759 when you are someone who is an artist. Those like 300 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.399 little moments of creativity. They can come few and far 301 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.480 between and when ordinary life disrupts them. This is what 302 00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:59.440 I found so fascinating about the film is that Daniel 303 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.599 de Lewis played a very good creative in the sense 304 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.039 that he's very petty and cantankerous, and he needs a 305 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:12.880 silence and he needs that sort of on the one 306 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:17.000 end of very reassuring and structured home life, but not 307 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:21.160 one that can disrupt his flow. And so this translates 308 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:26.119 to him being very like crotchety and insulting and petty, 309 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:29.559 and and it's it reminds me of something I heard 310 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:34.640 from a documentary on the famous comic artist Mobius. You 311 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:39.319 know Mobius, right Jay? Uh? He yeah, yeah he Also 312 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.799 this is uh he got famous because I believe was 313 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.079 it Marvel that brought him on to do a Batman 314 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.160 or a Superman Sorry, a Spider Man was a Marvel 315 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.319 or DC that does Spider Man? I forget, which I 316 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:56.960 thought was very interesting. But Mobius is very famous in 317 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.920 his own right for his own series and it grew 318 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.640 one of the best avant garde comic book artists ever. Right, 319 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.319 his penmanship is incredible. There's this documentary that was made 320 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:13.480 a few years before he died, talking about his relationship 321 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.440 to his wife in one section where he said that, 322 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:17.759 you know, it's very funny because a lot of comic artists, 323 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.160 a lot of artists in general, it's almost like the 324 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.000 wife becomes this mother figure where they're doing the taxes, 325 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.400 they're organizing the meetings because the artists can like have 326 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:31.839 time to play with his little colors and his pens. 327 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.799 It's very much like a sort of consuming mother type 328 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:36.640 of relationship. 329 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:36.920 Right. 330 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.559 Oh, and that's exactly the archetype I wanted to bring up, right, 331 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.160 be all consuming mother, because she does become that, right. 332 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.680 She is literally later in the film poisoning him. It 333 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:52.880 almost kills him right to keep him hers right, to 334 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:54.880 keep him attached to her. 335 00:18:55.640 --> 00:19:00.680 Yeah. Yeah, And so she they have this like very relationship. 336 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.880 And notice how one thing, I'll say, skipping ahead of 337 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.400 the film, she has this vision of having a child 338 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.039 with him and living a very like, you know, bougie 339 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:14.559 type of existence. But throughout the film there's not a 340 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.440 lot of physical contact between them. There's not a lot 341 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:21.039 of implications of sex or anything like that. It very 342 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:25.440 much is a standoffish muse type of relationship where to 343 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:30.720 lower it to the level of being fleshy and visceral 344 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.480 and vulgar that would have a profound impact on the 345 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.559 relationship as a whole. So Woodcock wants to keep her 346 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.640 at a distance. But when it comes to sort of 347 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.440 like the more masculinized version of the feminine in the film, 348 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:50.240 it's obviously his sister. His sister is his business partner. 349 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:54.519 She's the one organizing all of these very high end 350 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:00.160 commissions with like royalty and famous people and so on and 351 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.960 so forth. She's the one that he confides in as 352 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.519 an old I believe she's the older sister, and so 353 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:13.440 she took the role of her mother in nurturing his talent, 354 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.000 but doing it in a very strictly strict and regimental way, 355 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:21.440 whereas Olmah's character is sort of the you know, the 356 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:25.519 chaotic feminine. She's the agent of disorder because she has 357 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.160 a lot of other needs that are not there as 358 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.559 a sister. Right, So they have kind of like I 359 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.960 wouldn't want to say that would the two like Woodcock siblings. 360 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.119 I don'tudn't see that there's an incestuous relationship there. It's 361 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.799 more of like she is the manager. She takes on 362 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:44.119 a masculine role, whereas he's dwelling in something that is 363 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.079 very feminine, which is the act of creativity in a 364 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.160 very which has historically been a very feminine pursuit. Although 365 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.519 a lot of the greatest fashion designers of history have 366 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.960 been met and not necessarily gay men either, I mean 367 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.079 a lot of them were straight, right, I know, like 368 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.680 there is there is this one very famous model who 369 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:10.000 wrote about actually the relationship between homosexual men and women 370 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.839 in the fashion world that's in the fifties is very 371 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.440 red pilly. But anyways, so you know, a lot of 372 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.720 the great designers are men and so, but they're taking 373 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.880 on the embodiment of what has been pigeonholed as a 374 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.240 characteristically feminine form of art, right, although it shouldn't be. 375 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:31.119 It shouldn't be. So he's he's going into this relationship 376 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:35.039 with his own creativity. He's meeting this new woman and 377 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.440 then all of a sudden there is this disequilibrium he 378 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.079 finds with her in the house with the old man 379 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.839 in the house, and there's this one scene where he's 380 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.079 confiding in his sister after he's trying to create a 381 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.480 dress for this very rich but very old woman. He's 382 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:54.200 having a hard time, you know, of all the different 383 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:59.319 scenes and everything, and he confides to his sister, I 384 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:01.440 can't have her in house. I can't work, I can't 385 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:04.440 do anything. She's ruining my life, you know, like typical 386 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.720 like he's an old man, but it's like a teen 387 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.400 angst type of thing, right like, And of course, what happens, 388 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:14.839 the stereotypical movie thing. She walks in the room mid 389 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.720 mid rant, and now she knows what he really feels 390 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.079 about her, and so what does she do? She goes 391 00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.920 in scavengers for mushrooms in the forest, finds the poisonous 392 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.799 ones and then feeds it to him, and he's like 393 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:37.119 terribly sick. And now she goes from the intoxicating, chaotic 394 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:42.039 maiden to the feminine motherly figure nursing him to health. 395 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:46.799 Because what happens. He's trying to model for this, this 396 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.960 wedding dress for this princess, and wedding dresses are very 397 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.440 important this film. We'll get to that Jake. So he's 398 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:56.480 trying to model for that. He's trying to construct this 399 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.200 wedding dress. He only has a day left to send 400 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.759 it off to Belgium. What happens. He collapses right on 401 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.039