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Speaker 7: Together we can.

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Speaker 8: Subject to availability and switching to our twenty four months

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dot I E forward slash terms GIA.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Jay Birds Show.

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Speaker 5: How you doing great to be here? Bubba Booie, Howard Stuttenhall,

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I'm not doing I'm not gonna bomb the show at

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the very beginning. Now I'm doing good man. However, you

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been You're one of the most busiest podcasters, so you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'm really working hard to make a fake

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job into a real job.

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Speaker 5: Yeah se.

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Speaker 2: Podcasting isn't like an actual necessary part of society in

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any way.

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Speaker 5: But you know, no, that's wrong. Podcasting is vital. Podcasting

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is the essence the voice of the people nowadays, even

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though we despise and we hate the people. But you know,

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it's just oh, you're right, you're right, you're right.

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Speaker 2: So but anyway, we're here to discuss something that we're

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actually supposed to talk about on the last episode, but

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then you and I got distracted and it turned into

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an hour long conversation about something else. Yeah, we're here

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to talk about what is in my mind. I'm pretty

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interesting underdiscussed film Phantom Threat. So, Gia, do you want

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to introduce it a little bit before we jump into

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the discussion.

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Speaker 5: Sure, But before you do that, let me distract you

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once again by saying that was a great essay you

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did on James Lindsay that I read it this morning,

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and I don't know, like it's very you know what's funny?

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I think I think I know how James Lindsay got

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the idea that the woke greater maoists. Do you have

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to be an old head to know this? Okay? Okay,

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he got this idea because back in the Therminor Made Days.

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If you remember, I was I was integral p Well,

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I wasn't integral part I was one of the writers.

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We had the idea of of like the right wing

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has to read like Leninism, We have to read lenin Okay,

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that's how you win a sort of like cultural revolution

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and and the sort of and then and then Carl

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is bad. I think I don't know if he's around.

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Apparently he's still kicking around an alerker all but my

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good friend Carl's uh he also talked about this, and

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so I think like some wires got crossed where James

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Lindsay now believes that the woke right is like Maoism

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and Leninism, and I think this is all due to

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Thermoor magazine.

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Speaker 2: So oh see, I think that is a much that

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you or you were being much too kind. I think

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that basically it is a much lazier thing, which is yeah,

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he has defined he has defined the term so that

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anyone he doesn't like is woke, and woke is inherently communist.

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So basically everyone I don't like is a communist the

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James Lindsay guide to discourse, and it's basically probably correct.

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Speaker 5: That is probably the correct take, because I'm just I'm

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stretching it. I'm stretching my niche on my magazine. That

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was a part of way too in terms of importance

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of discourse. So but anyways, that yeah.

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Speaker 2: So probably I probably shouldn't say this, uh, but I

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have not not Lindsay, but another one of the sort

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of anti woke right crowd coming on my podcast soon. Wow,

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And I'm really not sure how it's gonna go because

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I haven't really played my hand yet and I am

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genuinely interested in Uh no, no, this one's much dumber.

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I won't say who because it might happen, but and

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I was. I was pretty upfront. I was like, hey,

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I won't have a conversation about the woke, right, that's

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all I say. I'm not entirely sure how that's gonna go,

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because the more I dug into it. And that's sort

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of why I wanted to do a review of one

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of his pieces, because I was like, all right, like

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I make fun of this guy enough, and I know

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what he says in short form, but like, let's let's

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give him the benefit of the doubt, Like let's dig

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into you know, something that should have taken him a

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long time to come up with write a long This

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should be him at his best. I was not impressed.

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But enough about Lindsay, because look, man, if you want

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to get me distracted, that is a way to get

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me distracted.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, OK, you're pro wrestling with me.

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Speaker 2: So anyways, Yeah, so we're here to talk about the

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twenty seventeen film by Paul Thomas Anderson Phantom Thread. So

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I'll be honest, I was not super excited initially, Like

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I did not think this is a movie that I

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would like because it's look, it's a movie about a

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fashion designer, like that sounds pretty dumb if I'm to

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be brutally honest, but is really fascinating so effectively, just

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in broad Strokes, this movie is sort of a drama

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concerning the relationship between fashion designer Reynolds Woodcock Cyreal, his sister,

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and then Alma sort of the main character, a woman

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who he ends up falling in love with. Broad Strokes,

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this movie has a very fascinating discussion about the relationship

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between genius and a muse, and then also the kind

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of different ways in which femininity encounters and sort of

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breaks down masculine genius. I think there are multiple ways

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to look at it, none of which I think were

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exactly what the director was necessarily desiring to come to express.

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And then maybe we can get into this later Geoe.

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But I think there's a fascinating sort of like alternate

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reading as well, which is definitely not what the or

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the movie is trying to talk about, but is worth discussing.

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Maybe later, Well, I.

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Speaker 5: Think that you said about female the sort of female

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energy hobbling in a weird way, the genius of the masculine.

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I can see it somewhat, but I see more of

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a reciprocal relationship there. I know we're getting ahead of bat.

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We'll explain. I think that me being like a land

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SHARKI and malest on the right, I think that there

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is a powerful phonic relationship there that is destructive. I

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will grant you it is destructive, but it's also sustaining

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if you But we can haggle over the ending of

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the film. So spoiler alerts, we're gonna get into a

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lot of spoiler alerts. But uh oh yeah, I didn't

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think that adds jail before I do my bit, so.

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Speaker 8: Oh not at all.

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Speaker 2: So in sort of the beginning of the movie, we're

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introduced to Reynolds. He his sister is his business partner

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at this extremely successful fashion house that you know, provides

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you know, addresses to the rich and famous.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this is an actual house, by the way. It's like,

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this is the old school style of fashion design.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And we see him, you know, when the

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initial kind of start of the movie with a woman

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who's sort of his muse and he's sick and tired

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of her.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: He basically you know, ends the relationship and so to

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clear his head, you know, after this traumatic uh you know, breakup,

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and we see him throughout it being very much disturbed

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by in a social conflict, right, he cannot create under

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these circumstances. So he goes to the country and in

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a diner he meets this girl, Alma. He sort of

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falls in love with her, although what's interesting is that

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it seems that he falls in love with her more

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as a muse than as a romantic partner. Yeah, their

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relationship kind of you know Burgeons, there's you know, ultimately

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their relationship falls apart. But what's interesting is that their

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relationship is sort of saved by his sickness. He gets

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very very ill, and to sort of continue this process,

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we find out that she is she's poisoning him. This

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is much basically, yeah, it's Munchausen by proxy, so that

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he can sort of reduce him to an infantile level.

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They can bond. Because there's also a very bizarre relationship

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between our main character and his mother. We'll get into

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that later. And then apparently as the movie ends they

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have a happy domestic life and his creative work suffers.

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So big picture, I think that they're sort of fascinating.

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Three motifs, three distinct female motifs. There is Alma, right,

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who is a romantic relationship with Reynolds, obviously a very

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dysfunctional one. There's Cyril, his sister, who has sort of

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a business yet still feminine relationship. And then also his mother,

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who both teaches him how to so teach him how

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to create, and then after she dies sort of recurrently

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appears in his dreams talking to him. So those are

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the three primary female archetypes. But I'll throw it to you, Geo.

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Speaker 5: No, that's great. That's a great setup because you have

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a very powerful feminine influence in all three of them.

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It's very similar to what me and a friend. I

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don't know if I could still mention his name, because

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you've gotten the trouble. Recently, we were talking about the

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films of Vincent Gallo and no, sorry I was talking

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about with him, but I was also talking about with

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my Frank Tino Corner his theory on Vincent Gallows the

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Brown Bunny, how each female he encounters is a Youngian

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archetypal mother maiden crone iteration of Chloe Savini's character. If

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you've ever watched The Brown Bunny, it's very similar here.

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There is a maiden mother crone distinction that the feminine

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serves as the unconscious shadow self, the anima of Reynolds.

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So this isn't the I believe the nineteen fifties this

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is when fashion was starting to change and where you had,

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like still you have like a lot of very high

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key designers that were doing a lot of private commissions

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for very rich and famous people, very rich and powerful

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women such as this one. I think the one he

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designs a wedding dress for is the Princess of Belgium

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or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think it's the Belgian princess.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And which is interesting enough, isn't it implied because it's

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never directly stated. But Alma is not British.

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Speaker 5: It is Belgian.

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Speaker 9: Oh I thought it was.

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Speaker 2: She could have been Belgian, but yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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I think because she has sort of a French accent.

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I guess I don't know anyway, I don't know anything

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about Europe. Sorry.

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Speaker 5: Well he he initially is drawn to her because the

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actual actress what's her name, Kramps, who I believe was

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in a lot of other Paul Thomas Anderson films because

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a lot of directors, they'll recycle different actors and actresses.

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I mean, well, of course you know there will be blood. Right,

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was that that was Paul Thomas Anderson?

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Speaker 10: Right?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 2: Oh, shoot, I should know this. I don't know anything

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about film.

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Speaker 5: I believe that was also Pta. Yeah, uh with with

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with Danio day Lewis. Right, so Dania day Lewis, he's

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playing this fast?

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Speaker 2: It was it was Pta?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so Dana day Lewis, he's this old school

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fashion designer. Of course, fashion is changing to more mainstream

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brands that are accessible. There is this sort of leveling

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of high fashion where people that are in the petty

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bourgeoisie or in like the sort of upper middle classes

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can afford different dresses by designers nowadays. We know this.

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I mean you have to be like, very very rich

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and famous to have a personal designer nowadays. Right, So

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this is still where fashion, this area of making serviceable

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dresses for special events. It wasn't exactly the runway fashion

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that's very highly adjacent to the art world. And so

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you have this designer who's sort of a dinosaur, and

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he's on his way out, and it's implied that a

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lot of his clients are going to more of these affordable,

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mainstream fashion designer houses or that are rather factories, like

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Champaul Gautier for example.

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Speaker 5: And you have the house designer with the name He

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lives in this mansion that's of course paid for by

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a very successful patron old woman that he tries to

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make look beautiful. And he has an army of seamstresses.

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And I know this because my great grandmother was actually

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in the It was a seamstress and all that. So

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he has an army of seamstresses that handmake everything, and

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he personally sows the label of the house behind the

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dress of the Woodcock House. And as it progresses through

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the film, he's at his wits end with his one muse.

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Then he discovers the what's her name in the film

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the Crimps woman?

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Speaker 2: Her name is Alma, Oh.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, olmah. So then Olma has these broad shoulders, is tall,

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it's skinny, basically perfect runway model, fashion designer, like you know,

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fashion easter, right, But she's like she's working in this

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restaurant where she's a waitress. And immediately, like literally from

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their first encounter, she goes right to in fanalizing him

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in a weird way. And see she he orders this

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huge meal and he she writes him a note of

293
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her phone number in address saying for the hungry boy. Right,

294
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so you know what this is going to be about,

295
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even though he's way older than her. So then as

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the film goes on, she works in the house. I

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believe she has some connection to the to being a

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seamstress and all that. And you have to realize that

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when you are someone who is an artist. Those like

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little moments of creativity. They can come few and far

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between and when ordinary life disrupts them. This is what

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I found so fascinating about the film is that Daniel

303
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de Lewis played a very good creative in the sense

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that he's very petty and cantankerous, and he needs a

305
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silence and he needs that sort of on the one

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end of very reassuring and structured home life, but not

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one that can disrupt his flow. And so this translates

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to him being very like crotchety and insulting and petty,

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and and it's it reminds me of something I heard

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from a documentary on the famous comic artist Mobius. You

311
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know Mobius, right Jay? Uh? He yeah, yeah he Also

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this is uh he got famous because I believe was

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00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:46,079
it Marvel that brought him on to do a Batman

314
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or a Superman Sorry, a Spider Man was a Marvel

315
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,319
or DC that does Spider Man? I forget, which I

316
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,960
thought was very interesting. But Mobius is very famous in

317
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,920
his own right for his own series and it grew

318
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one of the best avant garde comic book artists ever. Right,

319
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his penmanship is incredible. There's this documentary that was made

320
00:18:09,559 --> 00:18:13,480
a few years before he died, talking about his relationship

321
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:15,440
to his wife in one section where he said that,

322
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,759
you know, it's very funny because a lot of comic artists,

323
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a lot of artists in general, it's almost like the

324
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,000
wife becomes this mother figure where they're doing the taxes,

325
00:18:24,559 --> 00:18:29,400
they're organizing the meetings because the artists can like have

326
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time to play with his little colors and his pens.

327
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,799
It's very much like a sort of consuming mother type

328
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of relationship.

329
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Speaker 11: Right.

330
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Speaker 2: Oh, and that's exactly the archetype I wanted to bring up, right,

331
00:18:40,599 --> 00:18:44,160
be all consuming mother, because she does become that, right.

332
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,680
She is literally later in the film poisoning him. It

333
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:52,880
almost kills him right to keep him hers right, to

334
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,880
keep him attached to her.

335
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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, And so she they have this like very relationship.

336
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,880
And notice how one thing, I'll say, skipping ahead of

337
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,400
the film, she has this vision of having a child

338
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,039
with him and living a very like, you know, bougie

339
00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:14,559
type of existence. But throughout the film there's not a

340
00:19:14,599 --> 00:19:17,440
lot of physical contact between them. There's not a lot

341
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,039
of implications of sex or anything like that. It very

342
00:19:21,079 --> 00:19:25,440
much is a standoffish muse type of relationship where to

343
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,720
lower it to the level of being fleshy and visceral

344
00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:34,480
and vulgar that would have a profound impact on the

345
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,559
relationship as a whole. So Woodcock wants to keep her

346
00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:41,640
at a distance. But when it comes to sort of

347
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,440
like the more masculinized version of the feminine in the film,

348
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240
it's obviously his sister. His sister is his business partner.

349
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She's the one organizing all of these very high end

350
00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,160
commissions with like royalty and famous people and so on and

351
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:04,960
so forth. She's the one that he confides in as

352
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,519
an old I believe she's the older sister, and so

353
00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:13,440
she took the role of her mother in nurturing his talent,

354
00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:17,000
but doing it in a very strictly strict and regimental way,

355
00:20:17,559 --> 00:20:21,440
whereas Olmah's character is sort of the you know, the

356
00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:25,519
chaotic feminine. She's the agent of disorder because she has

357
00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:28,160
a lot of other needs that are not there as

358
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,559
a sister. Right, So they have kind of like I

359
00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,960
wouldn't want to say that would the two like Woodcock siblings.

360
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,119
I don'tudn't see that there's an incestuous relationship there. It's

361
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,799
more of like she is the manager. She takes on

362
00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:44,119
a masculine role, whereas he's dwelling in something that is

363
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,079
very feminine, which is the act of creativity in a

364
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,160
very which has historically been a very feminine pursuit. Although

365
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,519
a lot of the greatest fashion designers of history have

366
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,960
been met and not necessarily gay men either, I mean

367
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,079
a lot of them were straight, right, I know, like

368
00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:05,680
there is there is this one very famous model who

369
00:21:05,759 --> 00:21:10,000
wrote about actually the relationship between homosexual men and women

370
00:21:10,039 --> 00:21:12,839
in the fashion world that's in the fifties is very

371
00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:15,440
red pilly. But anyways, so you know, a lot of

372
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,720
the great designers are men and so, but they're taking

373
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on the embodiment of what has been pigeonholed as a

374
00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:26,240
characteristically feminine form of art, right, although it shouldn't be.

375
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,119
It shouldn't be. So he's he's going into this relationship

376
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,039
with his own creativity. He's meeting this new woman and

377
00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:38,440
then all of a sudden there is this disequilibrium he

378
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:41,079
finds with her in the house with the old man

379
00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:44,839
in the house, and there's this one scene where he's

380
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,079
confiding in his sister after he's trying to create a

381
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,480
dress for this very rich but very old woman. He's

382
00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:54,200
having a hard time, you know, of all the different

383
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:59,319
scenes and everything, and he confides to his sister, I

384
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,440
can't have her in house. I can't work, I can't

385
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,440
do anything. She's ruining my life, you know, like typical

386
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,720
like he's an old man, but it's like a teen

387
00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:10,400
angst type of thing, right like, And of course, what happens,

388
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,839
the stereotypical movie thing. She walks in the room mid

389
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,720
mid rant, and now she knows what he really feels

390
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,079
about her, and so what does she do? She goes

391
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,920
in scavengers for mushrooms in the forest, finds the poisonous

392
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,799
ones and then feeds it to him, and he's like

393
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:37,119
terribly sick. And now she goes from the intoxicating, chaotic

394
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,039
maiden to the feminine motherly figure nursing him to health.

395
00:22:42,519 --> 00:22:46,799
Because what happens. He's trying to model for this, this

396
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:49,960
wedding dress for this princess, and wedding dresses are very

397
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,440
important this film. We'll get to that Jake. So he's

398
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480
trying to model for that. He's trying to construct this

399
00:22:56,519 --> 00:22:59,200
wedding dress. He only has a day left to send

400
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,759
it off to Belgium. What happens. He collapses right on

401
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:07,039
it ruins the dress, and so his seamstresses and his

402
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,400
sister and his now girlfriend has to work the whole

403
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:14,119
night to repair this dress. And well, sorry, they work

404
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,720
the whole night. And well, Uma is nursing him like

405
00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:21,880
a mother nursing a sick child, very very similar to

406
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,680
an Edward Monk painting. That's the first thing that came

407
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,440
to mind, nursing him back to health. Uh. And and

408
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:33,720
he's terribly still like he's delusional and crotchety and cantankerous,

409
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,559
and he wore he tells the doctor to go f himself.

410
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,079
And it's just in a weird way. It's it's very

411
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,319
crazy and insane, but it's also beautiful. It's it's a

412
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,119
very like I wouldn't want to say like it's it's

413
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,079
like a fem clled fantasy or whatever, but there very

414
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,480
much is like a very strong feminine fantasy. If I

415
00:23:55,519 --> 00:23:59,079
can fix this genius who is a creative genius, but

416
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,839
he's he's like a lion, he's like a blonde beast.

417
00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:06,200
He plays by his own rules, and he's this almost

418
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,880
like a Heathcliff character. He's a force of nature, right,

419
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,920
But I'm going to tame him, and I'm going to

420
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:17,839
break him down and nurse him back up. And so

421
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,839
there's this very powerful feminine fantasy of engaging with a

422
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,920
male artist of any stripe. And so in a lot

423
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,440
of ways, it's a very beautiful film, but it's a

424
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,880
very destructive film. And then eventually he gets better and

425
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,119
that's when he's that's when she's talling. I believe she's

426
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,319
a saying all of this in the film. There's it's

427
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960
interspliced with her her monologuing to a therapist or another

428
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,039
guy or whatever, and it's a very beautiful thing where

429
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,519
she's like, he's his most calm, he's his most loving,

430
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,480
he's his most serene when he's on this like basically

431
00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:54,720
the cusp of death. And so the relationship between the

432
00:24:54,759 --> 00:24:58,119
feminine and death is very powerful in this film, because

433
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,559
of course his mother died when he's young. His mother

434
00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:06,759
that he had, she had this beautiful wedding dress, and

435
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:10,200
there's this one piece of dialogue between them where he's

436
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,160
saying that, you know, it's very hard to do wedding

437
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,480
dresses because a lot of models have a lot of

438
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:19,599
superstitions around wearing wedding dresses where they say that if

439
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,839
a model wears a wedding dress on a runway that

440
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:23,920
they're never going to get married, or they're going to

441
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,599
marry the wrong guy, or it's going to characterize their

442
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,480
life and the romantic relationship in some way. And so

443
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:32,079
he goes a it's very like a notoriously difficult to

444
00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:36,160
do a good wedding dress, right, but he's obsessed with

445
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,200
the same design of his mother's wedding dress that then

446
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,880
gets lost through time or moving or whatever. And now

447
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,000
in the film he models this wedding dress off of

448
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:54,880
UMA's character. He has this very rare I think it

449
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,440
was Italian lace that survived through the war. You know,

450
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,720
this is the nineteen fifties, so used to World War Two,

451
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,240
and he like throws it on her carelessly. He's putting

452
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:10,000
needles and pins everywhere, and he's sort of like trying to.

453
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 12: There's so much rugby on Sports Extra from Sky They've

454
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,880
asked me to read the whole lot at the same

455
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:16,960
speed I usually use for the legal bit at the end,

456
00:26:17,079 --> 00:26:20,200
here goes this Winter Sports Extra is jampackgrips rugby for

457
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,200
the first time. We've bet every champions got much exclusively

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life was actually from the URC, the Challenge Cup and

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much more. That's the USC and all the best European

460
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will be all in the same place. Get more exclusively

461
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:31,200
live tournaments than ever before on Sports Extra jampacked with rugby. Whew,

462
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that is a lot of rugby. Get Sports Extra on

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Sky for fifteen euro a month for twelve months search

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Sports Extra New Sports Extra customers only. Stand pressing applies

465
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after twelve months. Fifth terms apply for.

466
00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:43,839
Speaker 5: The twelve days of Christmas.

467
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 8: Eurospa had for me twelve Christmas eleven cakes are baking,

468
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:52,000
ten salmon smoking, nine.

469
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 13: Christmas crackers, eight Lovely Jesus, seven sheets of wrappings.

470
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,039
Speaker 5: Six stucking fillers.

471
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 10: F mins spies, four Christmas case, three Brussels brows, two

472
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,480
turkey legs and the Christmas Night's super easy.

473
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 11: Fine, you're super easy, supermarket.

474
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 5: Like mold her in a way, But she resists that

475
00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:17,880
out of all of the muses he's had, that he's

476
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,720
burned through like light bulbs, you put one in, you

477
00:27:20,759 --> 00:27:24,680
replace them, right, she's the only one that had this

478
00:27:24,799 --> 00:27:31,039
sort of phonic feminine power to resist his imposing masculine creativity.

479
00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:34,880
And how does she do it? She literally physically breaks

480
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,160
him down to the level of a child in his

481
00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:40,680
sickness to do this, and he she does this repeatedly,

482
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,079
and near the end of the film it's implied that

483
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,880
he's fine with it. He takes the mushroom. He knows

484
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,519
he's getting poisoned, but he does it anyways. And it's

485
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,119
a very it's a very like weird relationship, but within

486
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,400
the confines of that very creative lifestyle, you can understand

487
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,599
in a weird way. And so I thought it was

488
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,920
a very beautiful film, and it really has that the

489
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,960
interplay between the masculine and feminine within a creative endeavor.

490
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:13,119
And she then has this vision of having a child

491
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,240
with him, and it's it is implied that they eventually

492
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,119
do have sex and he she like totally just like

493
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,759
breaks him down and builds him back up. And it's

494
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:27,720
it's a way in which the feminine can impose upon

495
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:32,279
this feral, chaotic force of nature that is male creativity

496
00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,559
in the artist. And if you look throughout a lot

497
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,920
of human history, a lot of artists had this relationship

498
00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:40,359
and even when there wasn't, like if you have artists

499
00:28:40,359 --> 00:28:43,440
such as I mentioned Edward monk Ortulli's the track where

500
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,359
they have a very like chaotic and destructive relationship to women,

501
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,160
and they're like, you know, frequenting ladies of the night

502
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:56,079
and all this stuff there still is. Ah, there was

503
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:58,880
something that Robert Hughes, the great art critics, said a monk.

504
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,920
He said to Edward Monk's sex is ominous and hateful.

505
00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:07,279
As a man, you either live in the humiliation of celibacy,

506
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,000
being an insul or you subject yourself to the castration

507
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:14,480
of the feminine. And it was like this very the

508
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:18,640
polarity of the masculine energy being subsumed by the feminine.

509
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:23,279
And of course Edvardmunk was into the early Scaninavian vitalist

510
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:25,279
movement where it's like a bunch of men, you know,

511
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,319
bathing naked and the sun, very sole broad ish type

512
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:30,559
of stuff. But that they were doing where they were

513
00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:34,039
like the male if you look at the male bather painters, sorry,

514
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:36,960
if you look at the male bathing paintings of Edvard Munk,

515
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,599
you know what I mean. Where they had this like

516
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Germanic and Scandinavian health movement where a lot of men

517
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,039
would prance naked on the beach and these like nudist beaches,

518
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,039
and they do their exercises in the nude, and it

519
00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:52,839
was about this like solar vitality type of stuff, you know,

520
00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:55,960
very very like not feminine. But at the same time,

521
00:29:56,079 --> 00:30:00,000
Edward Munk had this incredible relationship to the feminine that yeah,

522
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,000
was very I guess the modern you know, twenty ten's

523
00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:06,640
lingo would be toxic and chaotic and whatnot. But here

524
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,079
you see with Woodcock in the film an equally destructive

525
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:14,160
and toxic but yet beautiful and in some ways endearing

526
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,480
relationship to the feminine. And so uh yeah, that's that's

527
00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:20,000
that's my little rantom the film.

528
00:30:20,119 --> 00:30:24,759
Speaker 2: So yeah, so what do you make of because their

529
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:30,200
relationship sort of has a two distinct crises, right there

530
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,359
is the you know, the first one, which punctuates in

531
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,400
her poisoning him first, and then they get married and

532
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,480
pretty quickly the relationship goes sour and sort of culminates

533
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,640
on New Year's yes, where you know, she gets invited

534
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,839
out by you know, to go dancing with this doctor.

535
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:53,559
She ends up going to this like horrible like gaudy,

536
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,759
uh you know, New Year's celebration, and he comes to

537
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:02,799
get her sort of rebukes her, which I think is

538
00:31:02,839 --> 00:31:06,079
an interesting element there. Multiple things. One obviously, you know,

539
00:31:06,119 --> 00:31:08,160
the reaction of the kind of the aesthetic or the

540
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,240
artist to kind of like mass market celebration.

541
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,559
Speaker 5: Is just it was also very americanized as well. There

542
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:19,480
was a lot of American themes in this New Years party, right.

543
00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: But I think it's interesting interesting as well, right that

544
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:26,759
the element of you know, she acts out to force

545
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,400
him to correct her. Yeah, she's almost kind of giving

546
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,640
him some giant test to be no, I won't you

547
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,680
would come and get legitimately like that's.

548
00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 5: What happened to Yeah, yeah, no, it is. Yeah, it's

549
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,480
very like Patris O'Neil ask like when you talked about like,

550
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:45,799
you know, Patrisa O'Neil for being like this, you know,

551
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:48,559
a fellow fat guy. You had a very you know,

552
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:52,640
attractive wife that he would talk about. You know, she'd

553
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,400
be like, you know, you give her a little, you know,

554
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,079
but they take, they keep taking. You got to stop it,

555
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,079
you say, no, you got to stop you know, like

556
00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:03,480
you remember those classic Patrisa o' neil interviews. Right, yeah,

557
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:07,039
you know, Now, not that I endorse, you know, I'm

558
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:10,839
you know, I'm not about the whole like anti women stuff,

559
00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:13,119
but like there is a lot obviously like a lot

560
00:32:13,119 --> 00:32:15,640
of truth there. There's obviously a lot of truth there,

561
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,279
like she's goading him and testing him, and it's just

562
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:21,680
a simple fact of human nature, you know what I mean,

563
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,519
between men and women. And there's this sort of like

564
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,240
and it's very funny how there's a little subtle hints

565
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:31,039
of the changing times because this is in Europe, but

566
00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:36,079
there's like this very like American esque and gaudy Years party,

567
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,400
and so there's sort of like a commentary on the

568
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,319
vulgarity of the culture that is coming down the pipe

569
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,319
in this time after the war, and he's sort of

570
00:32:48,359 --> 00:32:51,759
trying to find a way in this new culture, this

571
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:56,960
new mass produced culture, as a niche boutique fashion designer.

572
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,839
And so yeah, then it's also with noting by the

573
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,319
way that for years he resisted, I believe Daniel day

574
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,079
Lewis is like he's supposed to be in his fifties

575
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,799
in this film. For years he resisted actually getting married

576
00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:16,559
because he assumed that if he was going to be married,

577
00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:21,400
then he would view every wedding dress he made filtered

578
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,720
through his own relationship to his wife. And so the

579
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,279
fact that he was broken down to submit to bourgeois

580
00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:31,759
domesticated marriage is a very you know, that's a very

581
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:35,519
important plot point that they would get married and that

582
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:37,720
he you know, he essentially he does pass the test

583
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,880
because he grabs her and wrestles her away from this

584
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,000
this terrible New Year's party of gallantry and drunken festivity.

585
00:33:46,599 --> 00:33:49,359
And so well, what did you think of that part

586
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,799
burn you mentioned about the shit testing, What did you think?

587
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 2: It's it's really well shot, like it's it's a visually

588
00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:02,000
interesting movie, and I think it's it's interesting because we

589
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:07,200
see this this sort of social tension throughout the movie,

590
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,159
where we see both a social tension between you know,

591
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:15,679
our character Reynolds and those around him, because, as you've

592
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:18,960
said that, the times are sort of changing, and you know,

593
00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:23,920
he has this sort of uncomfortable relationship with this older,

594
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,679
unattractive woman who is sort of nuvo rish right, very

595
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,719
very wealthy, but very very classless. Yes, and he has

596
00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:36,239
made I think, like an absurd number of wedding dresses

597
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,199
for her over and over and over again. Yeah, because

598
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,599
he can sort of summon the magic to make her

599
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:42,920
young and beautiful again.

600
00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:45,599
Speaker 5: As as an artist, you create your teeth because she's

601
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:46,639
paying you, so.

602
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,039
Speaker 2: Well, she's paying. And also, you know, he he feels

603
00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:54,000
as if he is lowering himself because you know, she

604
00:34:54,079 --> 00:34:56,280
is not only physically unattractive, so he is sort of

605
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,519
contorting his craft to meet this you know, unworth vessel.

606
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,199
But also he is forced to, finally, after resisting over

607
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,159
and over again, attend her wedding. He never wanted to go,

608
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,400
and he goes with Alma, and part of the reason

609
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,119
why it never explicitly stated is he doesn't want to

610
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:18,440
see her embarrassing herself in his dress. Yeah, and there's

611
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,199
this moment at the wedding, and I think that there's

612
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,000
there is a tension between the two party. So I

613
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,519
guess three technically party scenes between the beginning and the end,

614
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,000
because in this one, they together, he and Alma are

615
00:35:36,119 --> 00:35:39,800
unified in going to retrieve his dress. This woman has a.

616
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:41,679
Speaker 5: Right.

617
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: This woman has gotten horribly drunk embarrassed herself at her

618
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,239
own wedding. He basically says, like, we're going in to

619
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,079
get the dress right now. I don't care, like we're

620
00:35:49,079 --> 00:35:51,519
going to save my art from this. And you know,

621
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,599
he kind of torpedoes that relationship. And so that is

622
00:35:56,639 --> 00:35:59,119
one way in which social class plays into this but

623
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,239
also later kind of in between the first and second

624
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,079
poisonings when they are married. Now we see this tension

625
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,880
where you know, he is, you know, sort of rankling

626
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,079
at the relationship. He's not happy, he feels as if

627
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:14,280
he's been sort of, you know, tricked into something.

628
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 5: He tells her that maybe you have no taste at all,

629
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,719
you know, in that Daniel day Lewis dep was that

630
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,920
was like, really, that was so cunning. You know, maybe

631
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,320
you have no taste at all.

632
00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: There's a moment and I'm not entirely sure of the

633
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,800
social connotation of this, just because I'm not really up

634
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,920
on mid twentieth century European like party game practice, but

635
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,400
there's sort of the setup where it looks like there

636
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,360
it's kind of like a speed dating setup and they're

637
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,840
playing i think backgammon or something. So basically it's a

638
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,480
round robin, you know, you move from one to the other,

639
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,800
and so we have back to back, you know, a

640
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,280
conversation between him and his wife, which is very icy,

641
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:54,079
and then him and this other woman, one of his clients,

642
00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:57,440
and it seems as if she is sort of this

643
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:01,159
other woman trying to muscle to steal him away from her.

644
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,199
Maybe who knows, but very clearly there is this class

645
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,639
dynamic where she views Alma as being lower or under class.

646
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:13,800
And that comes back around when we talk about, you know,

647
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,760
this sort of wild bacchan alien celebration, because we see

648
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,679
the doctor who she's not quite it's never implied they're

649
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,440
having a fair but she is flirting with and.

650
00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:29,079
Speaker 5: She has with him, she has eyes.

651
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,159
Speaker 2: Yes, that again, right, we see a lowering where that

652
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,559
same sort of process of process of you know, like

653
00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:42,840
massification or social leveling that has occurred in the fashion

654
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,719
worlds occurring here because it is not only just kind

655
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,599
of the average hoy POLOI, but it is this doctor, right,

656
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,440
some of his high class friends are now descending like

657
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:54,960
to that level, and so when he comes toget her,

658
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,559
it's this really striking scene. And yeah, there's a certain

659
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,519
element of this which is the like the shit test, right,

660
00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:03,199
like no, I won't let you do this. But on

661
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,840
another level, I think as well, it is like no

662
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,639
I will like you, you are not allowed to. You

663
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,480
will you are a representation of me, and you will

664
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,599
conduct yourself as such, which I think is interesting because

665
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:17,960
that is another dynamic as well, the degree to which

666
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,920
the product of their work as both of them. You know,

667
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,400
it is her wearing his art. And I think that

668
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,039
that's an interesting development as well, that they it goes

669
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:33,400
from being this kind of revolving cast of him and

670
00:38:33,519 --> 00:38:36,639
whichever muse to his one muse right, the person he

671
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,880
is linked to. And I think that that's an interesting

672
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,360
development as well, because before they're both going to retrieve

673
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,639
his art, yeah, whereas here he's basically saying like, no,

674
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,519
you are a part of me and you are not

675
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:50,519
allowed to do that. I don't know, you see on

676
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:51,480
getting at their geo.

677
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 5: Well, no, it was. Yeah, it was a great scene

678
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,079
because like they match each other's freak in that moment,

679
00:38:56,199 --> 00:38:59,719
you know, like they like that's that was a great

680
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,360
moment because now she fully is invested in each other

681
00:39:03,519 --> 00:39:07,679
as an entity, even though he is the creative. I

682
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,639
remember one time, I don't know if I should say this.

683
00:39:10,559 --> 00:39:13,360
I probably shouldn't say this to quote the famous geoism,

684
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,519
I probably shouldn't say this, But there was this the

685
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,480
guy to be fair that the writer's he's a good

686
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,480
guy and I might interview him one day. But there

687
00:39:23,519 --> 00:39:27,519
was this magazine once that wrote about my artwork in

688
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,760
relation to my friends Fenn and Matthew Stout and he

689
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,119
said something. It was like it wasn't meant as like

690
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,440
maybe it was meant as a job, but he said

691
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,760
that like a lot of my landscapes are sort of

692
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,039
like in the British context, there's sort of like a

693
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:46,159
seaside seasider art, you know what these like seaside resorts

694
00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:48,920
in the UK, and like they have landscape painters Plannar

695
00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,039
painters there right, And you know, I don't really take

696
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,000
any offense to it because I do quite a bit

697
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:57,199
of Plannier landscape painting, and you know, I mean if

698
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:00,480
they're pleasant or whatever. But I remember my girlfri read

699
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,559
this and she freaked. She like, absolutely, this is terrible.

700
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,119
I can't believe that he would say something thing about you.

701
00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:10,280
And I'm like, oh my god, Like I wasn't even

702
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,000
that offended, you know what I mean.

703
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 11: But this is the sound of a superpower we all

704
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,199
have sending Christmas cards to our family and friends and

705
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,400
making them feel loved. Who will you send magic to?

706
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,760
Your auntie, your brother, your bestie living abroad? You can

707
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,480
buy Christmas stamp booklets in your local post office or

708
00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:38,599
online with free next day delivery. Send Christmas Love from

709
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:42,519
the Heart today on post send Love.

710
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 13: At Central We've got amazing Santa Savors from now until

711
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,400
the Big Man arrives, like Coca Cola zero and Die

712
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,440
Coke twelve Compact six. You're a each Pus deposit selected

713
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,519
O'donnald's christ Sharing Bags two. You're a weech and oyster

714
00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:58,320
based seven blanc ten year old stuck up at CenTra

715
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,880
this Christmas CenTra live every day enjoy call sensibly.

716
00:41:04,039 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 5: So I totally got that moment. That was a great

717
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:10,039
moment in the film, right, But I think that in

718
00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:12,480
terms of a greater socio political context or a greater

719
00:41:12,519 --> 00:41:15,800
cultural context, the one woman that is a client of

720
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,159
his was chastising his wife because of course he's not British.

721
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,119
But then of course, you know, the whole bacchanalia of

722
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:27,480
the Nearest Festival is this like American theme. I believe

723
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,360
they even had the Confederate flag in Abraham Lincoln in

724
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,079
this unstilts type of deal, you know, which to the

725
00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:39,639
British ruling class at the time was very like vulgar

726
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,800
and New World and not very couth, right, But when

727
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:50,280
it comes to the enclosing of that social system, the

728
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,119
sort of like British higher class. I mean, obviously, you

729
00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:56,159
know they won the war against the Germans, but did

730
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:58,360
they really win the war against America? You know what

731
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,280
I mean? Like, you know, the America Kin's basically ruled

732
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,760
the world after that point, you know, because of well

733
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,639
we all know what happened, right, So I thought, like

734
00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:11,719
Paul Thomas Anderson, in a very slight, minuscule way, was

735
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,280
nodding to I would say, a more mature aspect of

736
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:22,119
that greater sociocultural commentary than this recent abomination that he

737
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:27,880
did with the Thomas Pinkton short story what's it called?

738
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,119
One soy after another, one battle after another, one battle

739
00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:35,239
after another, the recent Paul Thomas Anderson film. But in

740
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,679
that film, it's a very good commentary on the situation

741
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,320
in a weird way, right, Like these people they still

742
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,880
maintain their class distinction, their class consciousness, but that class

743
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,960
consciousness has suffered a great deal of you know, a

744
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,760
great blow to their sort of global legitimacy. Right, And

745
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,400
so it comes off as kind of pernicious to make

746
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,719
that comment that, well, you know, she's not British. I

747
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,880
don't know what they do in her with her people

748
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,320
in Belgium or Germany wherever Uma is from. And it's

749
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,800
a very like, you know, these people are kind of

750
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,880
on the losing end of things, the way that Woodcock

751
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,719
himself is on the losing end of a larger, more

752
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:25,159
mass produced, more American driven fashion industry that now is

753
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:29,039
coming from New York rather than coming from London or Paris.

754
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:32,519
So it's sort of like the art world in general,

755
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,159
that huge change after the war from Paris and you know,

756
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:41,679
from Paris, Italy, the UK, especially from Paris to New

757
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,800
York City. It's it's the same trend over and over

758
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,039
again at this time. And but that's like, you know

759
00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:50,320
that that was like a side of the film when

760
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,360
it comes to the ratio between them, Like as you

761
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,840
pointed out, there is always she's trying to wrestle him

762
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:02,719
away from what did make him a great in it's

763
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,880
not necessarily that she wants to destroy his creativity, she

764
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,159
wants to domesticate him. It's just like that that is

765
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,960
an element of nature that in a lot of ways

766
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,760
is necessary because it is true what people say, Like

767
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,000
you know a lot of people men and women that

768
00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:21,760
are sort of bachelors or whatever later on in life,

769
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,840
they they're sort of cement I know a lot of

770
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,920
older men like this, by the way, you never got

771
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,440
married or whatever. They're cemented in their ways, and they

772
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:36,400
can become quite quite ornery in their disposition towards anything

773
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,599
that smacks of like bourgeois domesticity. And so it's a

774
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,719
very interesting tension there, right and throughout the film the

775
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,119
fact that a lot of those tender moments comes at

776
00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:53,880
the behest of a great physical illness, and it's very

777
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:58,760
cathartic in a way. And so but anyways, I've rambled

778
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,400
for I've rambled for her to yeah.

779
00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 2: Oh no, not at all. Men, what would you make

780
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:08,840
of And this is not a reading that I think

781
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,800
is super supported by the text. But just when I

782
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,960
was sort of throwing around with some friends, what do

783
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,599
you think about the reading that this is a narrative

784
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,840
exclusively filtered through Alma talking to a third party and

785
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,800
she's trying to romanticize her role in this.

786
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:30,599
Speaker 5: That's a good interpretation. I mean, sensibly it is about that,

787
00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:33,000
because throughout, like I said, throughout the film, it's placed

788
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,199
with these narratives where she's speeling to this therapist or

789
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,239
this other male figure about her relationship and she's by

790
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,079
a fireside and she's gussing up a lot of these details,

791
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,440
and she is creating this like very very powerful psychodrama

792
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,039
in your head, and it is very like through her

793
00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:56,760
gaze in a weird way the film. But what did

794
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,559
you think of that though, Like, what would your interpretation be?

795
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, I think that that's an interesting thing,

796
00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:07,760
that there is a there's a And I hate the

797
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,440
term unreliable narrator because it's most often used in a

798
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:15,159
very reddit context, But I think that there is a

799
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:21,639
a dissonance between what actually happened in the film, like

800
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,599
not what we're shown, what the events is they were

801
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:26,880
actually supposed to have happened, and what we are seeing

802
00:46:27,519 --> 00:46:34,519
because she is interpreting everything in a highly romanticized, idealized

803
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:42,599
version where her actions are redeemed after the fact. So

804
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,880
for instance, like the scene where he voluntarily takes the

805
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,679
un poison or the poison again, where it's like, Okay,

806
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:53,199
well did that really happen? Or is that her romanticizing

807
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,280
this sort of munchhaus in by proxy right, saying that oh,

808
00:46:56,519 --> 00:46:59,039
you know, he really wants this, which, again that sort

809
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,960
of infantilization from the very beginning throughout the end. I

810
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,400
don't think that's a necessary reading, but I think that

811
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:06,800
that's an interesting element to it.

812
00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:13,679
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, definitely, Yeah. I wonder though there is an

813
00:47:13,679 --> 00:47:16,440
element of like with when it comes to much houses

814
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,400
by products, there's an element of like Darvaux or gaslighting,

815
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,400
where you convince yourself that you're doing this because you

816
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,239
love this person, because they need it, and because ultimately

817
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,000
their life would be better for it than not. But

818
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,440
you're still poisoning somebody. You're still like horrendously affecting their life.

819
00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:41,719
So but then again, I think that you can't really

820
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:47,519
pull a sort of how shall I say it, Sometimes

821
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:51,800
it's necessary to suspend a sort of real world moralism

822
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,440
when it comes to a lot of these films, when

823
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,360
it comes to any work of art. So I wouldn't

824
00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:01,920
be too critical or to judge, but given the real

825
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,159
world context of the things like this happens every single day,

826
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,320
then yes, it is very like destructive and you know, abusive,

827
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:13,960
but it's a very feminine style of abuse though right

828
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:18,679
it's it's it's mothering to the point of destruction, and

829
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,679
that is I think something that isn't you know, there's

830
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,719
a lot of famous cases of course in the real world,

831
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:31,119
like there's the whole Gypsy Rose thing, right, But it's

832
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:32,920
something that a lot of a lot of people talk about.

833
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,360
And I think Paul Don Sanderson he's very uh for

834
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,000
as much as like his recent work is terrible, he

835
00:48:41,159 --> 00:48:44,440
is willing to go to places that are very like

836
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,000
unp politically uncorrect, but portraying them a sympathetic way, like

837
00:48:49,039 --> 00:48:55,440
specifically a Magnolia with Tom Cruise's character. Right. So I

838
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,199
think even though like nowadays we we view it as well,

839
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,639
it's hall would And this recent film that came out

840
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,159
is like Bryy Stellis is I have a green line

841
00:49:05,159 --> 00:49:09,679
about liberal mustiness. I think if you suspend any moral judgment,

842
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:12,519
that does make sense within the film.

843
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:17,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, and actually that's an element to it,

844
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,920
I feel like it is. I was surprised to see

845
00:49:21,519 --> 00:49:28,480
a movie from this era deal with negative femininity so honestly,

846
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,639
because a worst director could have very easily turned this

847
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:37,039
into sort of a modern liberal morality play where she

848
00:49:37,199 --> 00:49:40,239
was actually completely morally justified all along. You know, then

849
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,119
the sort of like bro minds you'd sort of expect

850
00:49:42,639 --> 00:49:47,760
from you know, woke quote unquote Hollywood. But yeah, no,

851
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:54,360
he's sort of it's not entirely negative, right, their relationship

852
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,599
is an entirely negative. But I do think it is

853
00:49:56,639 --> 00:50:01,119
interesting that he is very comfortable painting her in a

854
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,199
in a negative light. And I think it's interesting that

855
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:10,079
there are multiple negative versions of femininity, right. You see,

856
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:12,960
the the kind of you know, vanity of you know,

857
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,639
an aging an aging woman in his you know, in

858
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,079
his clients, this sort of like backbiting cattiness. Uh, you know,

859
00:50:20,119 --> 00:50:23,000
in the woman that he you know, speaks at at

860
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,559
the kind of like backgame end game. Yeah, but there

861
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,280
were there's sort of a number. Uh and honestly, there

862
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,800
are very few male characters in this book other than Reynolds.

863
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,119
Speaker 5: But that's pretty much it.

864
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, what what do you make of,

865
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:42,360
you know, his his relationship to his mother, like his mother,

866
00:50:42,559 --> 00:50:45,079
you know, while he is poisoned deeply ill, his mother

867
00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:50,480
sort of appears to him and then when when Alma

868
00:50:50,599 --> 00:50:52,320
walks into the room, she disappears.

869
00:50:53,079 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 5: Right.

870
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,159
Speaker 2: I think obviously there's a level of replacement there. You know,

871
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,800
he's becoming his mother, both on a literal level as

872
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,000
well kind of like a spiritual one. But what do

873
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,280
you make of that scene.

874
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 5: That was Yeah, that was another great scene that was

875
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,519
very telling because I was thinking about this when we

876
00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:14,119
took a pause. I was thinking about this again, very

877
00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:18,679
similar to a lot of paintings by Edward Munk, where

878
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,920
if you look at his uh lithiographs or his paintings

879
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,159
such as The Sick Child, he was very sickly as

880
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:31,079
a kid and he had he was consumed by these

881
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:34,760
feminine forces, either through nurses or through his mother. And

882
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,519
so I think that the film is very honest when

883
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:43,920
it comes to sort of female power struggles and intersexual

884
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,320
competition and and the modolo was thing of It was

885
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:53,039
Coco Chanel who wrote this like very telling, uh screed

886
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:56,159
about gay men in the fashion in history and how

887
00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:58,960
they like you know, make women look ridiculous. And there

888
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,199
was always this like tension between you know, gay gay

889
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,760
men and women. And I remember one time on Da

890
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:11,280
Me and Prude, we had Catherine Dion and Katherine she

891
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,719
was recently in the New York Times. I don't know

892
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,360
if you saw that, Jay, but we were reviewing these

893
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,519
three films and one of them was this film called

894
00:52:19,559 --> 00:52:23,960
Pig Hag about this this rather large woman and her

895
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,599
only friends, these gay men, and at the very end

896
00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:29,000
of the film, she says, you know, my gaze have

897
00:52:29,119 --> 00:52:33,239
ruined me. My gaze have ruined me. But anyways, that's

898
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,599
that's off topic. It was very well kind of on topic.

899
00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:40,199
But it's on topic in the sense that when it

900
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:45,320
comes to Woodcock in the film, just by necessity, he

901
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:50,519
is surrounded by the world of the feminine. His seamstresses

902
00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:54,840
are all women, his sister, his mother who died Umma.

903
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,599
The clients that he has are women. They're very powerful.

904
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:05,320
Women employ him. So he has to assert himself as

905
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:05,800
a man.

906
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,159
Speaker 9: His favor at Druggi on you said Uliva Marta Valley Exula,

907
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,559
I couldn't should their father staff heard to his twict

908
00:53:11,639 --> 00:53:15,880
months his fader l Range Trugy too, will you rudder?

909
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,119
Organ will boil along when you know the.

910
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 14: Two couldn't russ Thetavala Conto Marvine Twig Tomans Fijion Herdrogi

911
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:31,320
is fed the hit passionary Augustini ele mohmul not toman.

912
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:37,119
Speaker 9: Firo on tour court at Rsa Ponkai the weeks.

913
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,599
Speaker 15: Before Christmas, I just take time to enjoy the present

914
00:53:40,679 --> 00:53:44,519
present shugar. This week at London's It's any three for

915
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:47,519
five year across our pringles range gets selected seven up

916
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:50,199
club or Pepsi eight pack can range just four ninety

917
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nine plus deposit and enjoy Guinness twelve pack cans just

918
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,320
nineteen eighty eight and Carlsburg twelve pack cans just twenty

919
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:57,400
thirty six plus.

920
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 8: Deposit at Londo's.

921
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,679
Speaker 15: We know what locals want because we're vocal like you,

922
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:05,119
enjoy alcohol responsibly offers end seventh of December in participating stores,

923
00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:06,159
while stocks last.

924
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 5: In a very different way than men in relation to

925
00:54:11,679 --> 00:54:16,440
other men. That's why he becomes very standoffish and caddy

926
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:23,000
and cantankerous. And so it's a matter of him navigating

927
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:26,639
the world of the feminine because of the loss of

928
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:32,039
that very maternal feminine influence early on in life. And

929
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,119
he's always at the one end trying to find and

930
00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:38,920
I know this is like stereotypical, especially of male artists,

931
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,679
trying to like go back to mommy, trying to like

932
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:46,960
find a motherly maternal replacement. But he's also repulsed by

933
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:50,239
it because he has to differentiate himself as a man

934
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,840
in the world of women, which is, I hate to

935
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,679
say it, a very unhealthy type of thing, right, especially

936
00:54:55,679 --> 00:54:56,800
if you're a heterosexual man.

937
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that's that's definitely like you

938
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,079
survised it. Well there right, I'm unfortunately GEO gonna have

939
00:55:05,199 --> 00:55:08,519
to step out soon just due to real world concerns.

940
00:55:08,599 --> 00:55:10,039
But just kind of put a bow on it.

941
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 13: Uh.

942
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:15,039
Speaker 2: This was really interesting movie. Uh, one that I was

943
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:17,960
not particularly excited to watch because the one hundred percent

944
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:20,079
honest this was a date night movie for me, and

945
00:55:20,119 --> 00:55:21,800
it's like, oh, come on, a movie about a male

946
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,000
dress designer like that, that sounds awful. But it was

947
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:28,320
really interesting, you know that there's a lot to be

948
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,119
said about, you know, the relationship between the sexes, the

949
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:34,599
kind of different forms that femininity takes. Uh, andry. I

950
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:36,559
had to give my wife credit. She picked a good movie,

951
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,480
so fair enough, but would recommend it. You can find it,

952
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:43,039
rent it for three bucks or sale the high seas.

953
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,480
But there's an interesting, uh, an interesting commentary there on

954
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:48,280
both the nature of what it is to be a

955
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,280
creative you know, what it is to produce art that

956
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,760
indexes with the real world and becomes commercialized, and also

957
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,920
with the feminine, you know, in both positive and negative,

958
00:55:58,079 --> 00:55:59,960
in kind of multiple different forms.

959
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 5: Which which is literally the mother of creation the feminine.

960
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,639
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, and so yeah, man, I think it

961
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,119
was a really interesting film. I appreciate you coming on

962
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:11,159
to review it with me. But Geo, if people want

963
00:56:11,159 --> 00:56:14,000
to find more of you, where should they look.

964
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 5: Well, I'm sure my link Tre'll have everything, like from

965
00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:22,159
my YouTube channel of Jenner Productions, Twitter at Genngo, Substack,

966
00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:26,840
Geo's content Corner, Telegram. I need to get more Telegram subscribers.

967
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,559
Unfortunately I don't know Telegram's weird, but uh yeah, Patreon,

968
00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:35,239
Accompash one Productions, Telegram sorry, substack dot Com, Slash Geo's

969
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,840
content corner. Every episode of content Minded is only five

970
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,599
dollars a month, although there's different tiers of Patreon. But

971
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:44,920
I'm also starting to get more into art videos and

972
00:56:45,159 --> 00:56:47,199
where I talk and I paint. I call a painting

973
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,719
Discourse every Monday, and in the near near future I'm

974
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:56,639
going to probably start releasing Patreon exclusive art videos as well.

975
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,800
So but yeah, I have literally hours upon hours of content,

976
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,719
and of course you know I have da with with

977
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:10,039
Prude Credentialist Digital Archipelago every Tuesday night. And so yeah,

978
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:12,800
that's just go to my link tree. That's probably the

979
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:13,519
best bat.

980
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 2: So well, sure thing, man, I appreciate it as far

981
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,320
as my stuff, Jay Burden Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere

982
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,360
you will listen to podcasts. You want to support me Patreon,

983
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,679
Substack or gum road get the episodes early in ed

984
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:31,519
free again Geo, I really appreciate it, manye.

985
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, god bless that's great.

986
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:37,719
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