1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:45,399 --> 00:00:46,439 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,799 Speaker 3: We're back for part two of our episode, in which 17 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,600 we discussed the recent New York Times piece from reporter 18 00:00:55,799 --> 00:01:01,560 Mike Baker in interview with Melanie Coburger AKA. She is 19 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,040 the sister of Brian Coburger, who decided to go on 20 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:08,319 the record and talk about her brother in the wake 21 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:13,400 of his guilty plea in the Idaho for killings. 22 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: One thing she mentions in the article which I want 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,159 to give her some credit for, which is their decision 24 00:01:20,359 --> 00:01:24,599 to remain quiet during the last couple of years, since 25 00:01:24,719 --> 00:01:27,840 twenty twenty two when his name was first put forward 26 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,640 as a potential suspect. I think they were wise to 27 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:36,120 remain quiet and not say anything. I'm sure the amount 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,519 of media attention and coverage, and I remember even reading 29 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:43,560 about and seeing how news crews were parked in front 30 00:01:43,599 --> 00:01:46,599 of the house and so on, and yet they didn't 31 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:48,640 have very much to say. I actually think that was 32 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:52,280 wise and even kind on their part, because there probably 33 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:55,319 wasn't much they could say that was going to help 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,159 the situation. The Coburger family deserved credit for that. 35 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:03,159 Speaker 3: No, I agree. If you have not already listened to 36 00:02:03,239 --> 00:02:06,200 part one of this episode, we do recommend that because 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,159 otherwise you're coming in the middle of the story, So 38 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,599 please tune into part one and continue with us here 39 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:13,719 as we move on to part two. When we left off, 40 00:02:14,039 --> 00:02:19,240 miss Coburger was discussing the evening that the police burst 41 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,599 into their house to arrest her brother in the early 42 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,919 hours of December thirtieth, twenty twenty two, while mister Coberer 43 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,879 and his parents were alone in the house. Police officers 44 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,879 burst in with guns drawn, shattering glass and rushing to 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,439 place him in handcuffs. In court. Law enforcement officials said 46 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:39,960 that mister Coberger's DNA was found on knife sheath that 47 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,080 had been left next to two of the victims. Amazon 48 00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:46,039 records showed he had purchased the same style of knife, 49 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,639 And then there was the white Alantra. Investigators determined that 50 00:02:49,719 --> 00:02:52,560 the car seen near the murder house matched the model 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,159 he drove. 52 00:02:54,599 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: It's worth mentioning here because the New York Times doesn't 53 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,840 mention it that this is also a time time when 54 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:04,599 our friends at Othram were key to helping solve yet 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,319 another murder case. Although Mike Baker doesn't mention it here. 56 00:03:08,719 --> 00:03:13,719 The DNA found on the night she was then identified 57 00:03:13,879 --> 00:03:19,280 through work done by our friends at Othram in the Woodlands, Texas. 58 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:22,479 So it isn't just about the white Alantra, It's about 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,520 the DNA as well. 60 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,439 Speaker 3: Ms Coburger said her mother has been praying daily for 61 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:31,159 the families of the victims. Ms Coburger herself has put 62 00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:35,400 the names of the victims Mevsen, Mogen, Kaylee Genkalves, Zana 63 00:03:35,479 --> 00:03:38,919 Cernadl and Ethan Shapin and their birthdays into her digital 64 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,960 calendar so that she will get reminders about them during holiday. 65 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,759 She said her families felt grief that mister Coberger could 66 00:03:45,759 --> 00:03:47,639 not be with them, but then she would think of 67 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,080 the victims' families and the pain they must be feeling. 68 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,680 The idea is making me so emotional, I can barely 69 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:56,560 speak to you about it, she said in tears. Stephen Covez, 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,759 the father of miss can Cavas, said he had sympathy 71 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,680 for mister Coberger's sisters and the scrutiny they had endured 72 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:05,639 in recent years, but he said he still had lingering 73 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:10,319 questions about what mister Coberger's parents might have known or suspected. 74 00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:14,919 Is this a question that ever comes to you as 75 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:18,240 the family member of a victim if it turns out 76 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,920 that Wilmer is the person who murdered Kathy? Is that 77 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:25,680 a question that you're going to find yourself asking. 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: I'm sure it is, and we still don't know. I guess, 79 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:33,800 at the risk of sounding like my late mother, will 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,120 cross that bridge when we come to it, because I 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:42,120 don't know in Kathy and Becky's murder, if Wilmer is responsible, 82 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,800 one of Wilmer's accomplices is responsible or there are other 83 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:51,199 perfectly viable suspects, some of whom have been looked at 84 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,959 hard in this investigation. There's no proof yet that they 85 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,000 are responsible for any of the Colonial Parkway murders. It's 86 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:05,560 still a nebulous concept from my perspective. When I look 87 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,319 at Steve Elvis, some people say gun Salvis with more 88 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:14,759 of an s sound. I understand why he has lingering 89 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,879 questions about Coberger's parents, and far be it from me 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,079 to give him advice. As the father of a murder victim, 91 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,240 I understand why those questions remain. These are the kind 92 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,160 of things that you can make yourself crazy. I don't 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,279 know that anybody could have ever anticipated the horror that 94 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:40,079 Brian Coberger is responsible for, including his parents, and certainly 95 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:44,439 there doesn't seem to be any history of violence in 96 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,120 his life that would have been a precursor to this 97 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:54,319 horrible quadruple homicide. I'm very sympathetic to mister Goncalvius and 98 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:58,519 the thoughts that remain with him. I suppose we'll have 99 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,680 to see when the Colonial Parkway murders are fully solved, 100 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,920 and I still think we can get there. I may 101 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:09,519 have a different reaction once we know who our killer 102 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:10,560 or killers might be. 103 00:06:12,079 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 3: The article continues. As the criminal case proceeded, the Coburger 104 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,199 family was troubled by the intense discussion around it. Mister 105 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,720 Coberger's and motionless mannerisms, which the family attributed to his autism, 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,000 became something people treated as evidence of him being a monster. 107 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,079 And then it's noted in parentheses, research has not established 108 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,680 any conclusive causal links between autism and violent crime. There 109 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,879 were reports that he had interacted with some of the 110 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:44,160 victims on social media or had gone to a restaurant 111 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,839 where two of them had worked, but investigators later dismissed 112 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:48,879 those claims. 113 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: I struggle with this one because I still think there 114 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:57,480 has to be some sort of intersection between Coburger and 115 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,560 these victims. Otherwise, how the would he know to kill 116 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,639 these four people. He has to have seen at least 117 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:09,920 one of them and perhaps more somewhere on campus at 118 00:07:09,959 --> 00:07:13,759 the University of Idaho where they were going to school, 119 00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:18,160 or in public somewhere, because I have no idea unless 120 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,879 he's picking their house out at random, which I think 121 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:26,399 is absurd. Investigators later dismissing those claims. I have a 122 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,920 real hard time with this. He has to have known 123 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,040 about at least some of these four young people from somewhere. 124 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:37,959 I strongly disagree with the idea that they're dismissing those 125 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:42,439 claims of a connection via social media or this very 126 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,560 popular vegetarian restaurant where I think two of the young 127 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,639 people work. I just want to point out, I think 128 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,639 that's absurd on its face. There has to be some connection. 129 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Like I've talked about with you before. If two guys 130 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,839 get in a fight in a bar, that's why. What happened. 131 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,000 If somebody is out driving and gets involved in some 132 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:07,920 sort of road rage incident and some idiot pulls out 133 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,519 a gun and shoots another motorist, at least there's a why. 134 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:15,000 I'm not saying it makes sense or that it's reasonable 135 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,519 or anything like that. But he has to know these 136 00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:21,439 people from somewhere. That's just I have to push back 137 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,560 on that one aspect of the New York Times piece. 138 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: All of the attention, Ms. Koberger said made it hard 139 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:31,199 to imagine that her brother could ever get a fair trial, 140 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,519 and she could see that the wild speculations surrounding the 141 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,440 case seemed hurtful to the families and friends. Of the 142 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,759 students who died. Once an avid true crime fan herself, 143 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,679 she now looks back on that with regret. It's human 144 00:08:45,759 --> 00:08:49,480 nature to be curious about darker things, she said, that's 145 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,399 how we keep ourselves safe. But I think we should 146 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:55,480 try and come together for a true crime culture that 147 00:08:55,639 --> 00:08:59,200 is way more protective and empathetic to the families of 148 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,840 the victims. Yeah. 149 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:05,519 Speaker 2: Interesting, she sounds like Julie Murray here and other friends 150 00:09:05,519 --> 00:09:08,919 of ours who've been promoting the idea of a more 151 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:11,159 empathetic approach to true crime. 152 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: And I mean as a culture who is engaged almost 153 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:23,200 to an almost psychotic degree with social media and platforms, 154 00:09:23,279 --> 00:09:26,360 with lots of ways to be connected to everybody all 155 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:29,840 the time. I think that we have reached a point 156 00:09:29,919 --> 00:09:35,639 where we are at such megasaturation with news and content 157 00:09:35,759 --> 00:09:39,600 and everything else that it almost becomes we almost become 158 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:40,919 desensitized to. 159 00:09:40,799 --> 00:09:41,759 Speaker 2: It, exactly. 160 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 3: I think that it's we've reached total saturation with what's 161 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,799 my next true crime thing. It becomes less about the 162 00:09:49,879 --> 00:09:52,559 people and more about what's the story I'm going to 163 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,720 get fixated on next. You forget sometimes if you're not 164 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320 living inside it, like the two of us are, that 165 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:05,120 there are humans behind these cases. They're not generated like 166 00:10:05,159 --> 00:10:09,279 an episode of Criminal Minds for amusement and entertainment. I 167 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,799 think people tend to forget that there are real lives 168 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,559 behind every horrible thing that they hear about on a 169 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Netflix documentary or a podcast. I'm glad that people are 170 00:10:23,919 --> 00:10:29,200 infuriated when it comes to the mass murder of college students. 171 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:35,320 Everybody should be. That does not extend to being angry 172 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:41,240 enough about the assender to stock his family to docks 173 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,519 his friends. We saw a lot of I guess mania 174 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,440 is almost the best word around the Idaho case, where 175 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,039 you have people outing professors and friends of friends as 176 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,799 potential suspects with nothing more than oh I saw them 177 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,279 on webcam footage at the same time that Kaylee and 178 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,559 Maddie were at a bar. He must be involved. There's 179 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,360 almost a mania to solve it, to get the answer, 180 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,840 to be the person to crack it, and then to 181 00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:18,840 be the person to report upon it. That has to stop. 182 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,799 It really, truly does have to stop, because there's no 183 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,320 prize here for being or forgetting the stoop or for 184 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,720 anything else. It's real people who get added and docksed 185 00:11:32,799 --> 00:11:36,200 and everything else. When people start going nuts, for this 186 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,639 sort of thing. Everybody then suffers, the victims, the families, 187 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,279 the friends, everybody. 188 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:48,279 Speaker 2: There was some insane stuff in the Idaho four case. Yeah, 189 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,399 I remember when people were reviewing video footage of people 190 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,000 grabbing something to eat at a food truck. Yep, they 191 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:04,480 were actually identify individuals whose only crime was being in 192 00:12:04,519 --> 00:12:07,600 line in a food truck at the same time that 193 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,600 some of the victims were also there. And look, it's 194 00:12:10,639 --> 00:12:13,399 a big thing. You're out there having a good time. 195 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,840 It was a big party weekend. I think it was 196 00:12:15,879 --> 00:12:19,200 a big football weekend, was my recollection. A fair amount 197 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,240 of drinking and partying going on. And what are the 198 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,279 things you do late at night after you've been out 199 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,600 drinking as you go out and get something to eat. 200 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,840 But these people in these video clips were guilty of 201 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:36,480 nothing except standing in line near some of the victims. 202 00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:40,480 But to identify these people and say I've figured out 203 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,840 who Joe or Jane is that was in line, What 204 00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:47,120 the heck does that have to do with proving that 205 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,320 someone is involved in a brutal murder of four young people. 206 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,840 It's one thing when the FBI, the Idaho State Police, 207 00:12:57,159 --> 00:13:01,559 and various law enforcement agencies are working towards building a 208 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:05,879 case that involved tons and tons of video footage and 209 00:13:06,159 --> 00:13:11,480 a search for the white Hyundai Elantra. Ultimately, DNA found 210 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,039 on a knife sheath at the scene, and those things 211 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,559 together plus lots of other evidence, led to them identifying 212 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,000 a suspect. And I am highly confident that if the 213 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,879 Coburger case had gone to trial, he would have been 214 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:28,399 found guilty of the murder of these four young people. 215 00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:34,559 That's one thing that's responsible law enforcement work towards building 216 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,639 a case to identify an offender. It's a whole other 217 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,960 thing to start just throwing out random ideas and besmirching 218 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,279 people's reputations. Like you said, people that were associated with 219 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:53,200 Coburger through his school or other work. That doesn't mean 220 00:13:53,279 --> 00:13:57,320 they know something about who's responsible for the Idaho for 221 00:13:57,639 --> 00:14:02,120 murders or anything like that. Yet we all kinds of insane, 222 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,840 irresponsible speculation, and that's probably being polite. 223 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 3: I think it's also a good time to talk about 224 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:14,120 something that we've definitely addressed before but always bears repeating. 225 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,559 It's important to be respectful of the victims. It's important 226 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,840 to be respectful of families. It is important to be 227 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:24,159 respectful of survivors, but that has to be extended to 228 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,159 the families of offenders as well. I have hated the 229 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,960 times that I have been at crime Con, and I 230 00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:37,720 remember very clearly. It wasn't this past year at Denver. 231 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:41,879 It was at Nashville. Seeing someone walking around with a 232 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,879 BTK Shan Club T shirt on about to walk past 233 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,240 Kerrie Rosston. How the f do you think Carrie Rosson 234 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,360 feels seeing that someone is wearing a T shirt that 235 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:58,960 says they're a member of the BTK Sayan Club. That's disgusting. 236 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:05,000 That is disgusting. That's abhorrent. And people just wear this 237 00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:09,360 stuff because it doesn't involve them, or it seems funny 238 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,320 or it seems lighthearted. It wouldn't be funny or lighthearted 239 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,240 to you if that was your father, the same way 240 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,679 that people with the Ted Bundy tattoos. Yeah, you can 241 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,279 have your Ted Bundy tattoo, but please don't walk in 242 00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:27,159 front of Kathy Kleiner wearing it. He bashed her face 243 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,879 in she had to stand up to him. 244 00:15:29,759 --> 00:15:31,399 Speaker 2: In court, killed her friends. 245 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:38,279 Speaker 3: He killed her friends. It's this whole idea of fetishizing criminals. 246 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:41,759 Crime Con has done a much better job about tamping 247 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,039 down on that sort of T shirt and other pair 248 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,320 of fernalia. They've done much better on that in the 249 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,120 last couple of years, but of course, because there's so 250 00:15:51,159 --> 00:15:53,519 many people there, it's always going to slip in. I 251 00:15:53,559 --> 00:15:57,759 didn't catch anything egregious this past year in Denver. I 252 00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:02,120 did see a lot more slasher movie Yeah, which slash 253 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,279 slasher movie crossover? 254 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,879 Speaker 2: Crazy about that either, And I know you're not. 255 00:16:06,039 --> 00:16:08,639 Speaker 3: And that's another one of those things that I have 256 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,799 a hard time with because I loved the Scream franchise 257 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,559 and I love the Halloween franchise, and so yes, do 258 00:16:16,679 --> 00:16:19,480 I have Michael Meyer's sweatshirts? Absolutely? Am I going to 259 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,279 wear them in front of you? Now? It really is. 260 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,879 It's a very hard thing as somebody who loves true 261 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,679 crime and slasher movies to be able to figure out 262 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,000 how can I like those things but still be respectful 263 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:35,000 to the people who have suffered. 264 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: From them understood. It's something I really struggle with. People 265 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:44,519 have likened the Colonial Parkway murders to a slasher film, 266 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:47,120 And there was some guy a couple of years ago 267 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:52,080 that made a slasher film based on the Colonial Parkway murders, 268 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,440 some screamingly low budget thing. Yeah, and then he reached 269 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,519 out to me at some point, and don't expect me 270 00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:02,159 to be our bring you any kind of endorsement or 271 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:06,920 our podcast platform to talk about your cheap ass horror 272 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,839 film that's based on the Colonial Parkway murders. And at 273 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:13,079 the same time books that are based on the Colonial 274 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,599 Parkway murders, including best selling true crime books, doesn't sit 275 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,119 well with me. It really doesn't. Maybe I'm just one person. 276 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 3: You've got as much a right to that opinion as 277 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,640 anybody does. The article continues. The family has tried to 278 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,000 support mister Coberger since his arrest. They've held regular calls 279 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,640 with him, avoiding discussions about the details of the case. 280 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,640 Ms Coburger said she has kept him posted about life 281 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,440 back at home, and he sometimes talks about his latest 282 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,680 interests in psychology, the Meyers Briggs personality assessment and the 283 00:17:45,759 --> 00:17:48,839 bicameral mind theory, in which the two sides of ancient 284 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:54,720 human brains operated independently. Interesting. For his birthday, mister Coberger 285 00:17:54,799 --> 00:17:56,880 asked his family to make a cake that he thought 286 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,440 his sister Amanda would like. He asked Mel to blow 287 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,400 out the candle through it all. They've tried to reconcile 288 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,799 the son and brother they loved and still do with, 289 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,920 the man depicted by prosecutors and the police, the man 290 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,319 who pleaded guilty to killing four young people with no 291 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:17,720 apparent motive. For me, when I was writing my notes 292 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,400 for these sessions today, I said, the agony of still 293 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,400 loving someone but knowing they've done horrible things has got 294 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,960 to be so traumatic, because how do you reconcile that dichotomy. 295 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,920 I'm sure that people ask themselves every day, is it 296 00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:39,359 possible to love someone even if they've done something reprehensible. 297 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:44,599 Speaker 2: I remember reading this when you were putting together the 298 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,160 notes for this discussion today, and first of all, I 299 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,720 thought your notes were extraordinarily good. As always, I really 300 00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:55,759 tried to think about this. How would I feel if 301 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:59,559 this was one of my siblings? What if I did 302 00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:03,079 something to terrible? How would my brothers and sisters? How 303 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,519 would they have taken this? This is a real struggle. 304 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:10,519 I know lots of people that have been convicted of 305 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:14,720 crimes and their families have disowned them. Yeah, but at 306 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,559 the same time I understand that if you've known someone 307 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:23,160 and loved someone your entire lives. You grew up together, 308 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,200 your brother, your sister, your child. It's difficult to wrap 309 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,240 your brain around the horrible thing that they did, the 310 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:36,480 person that you knew and loved and shared a bedroom 311 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:41,119 with for all those years. You can't exactly wipe that 312 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,079 all away. Because they've done something terrible doesn't mean you 313 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,519 support what they did or even forgive it. But at 314 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:52,559 the same time, they're still your brother, your sister, your child. 315 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,519 I can understand the struggle that the Coburger family would 316 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:01,599 go through both being awesome extracized. I was shocked when 317 00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:06,480 this article mentioned that mel lost the opportunity to work 318 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:10,400 in a new role because of all of the media 319 00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:15,759 attention here, or she is now being punished professionally, losing 320 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:18,799 opportunities because of something her brother did. And at the 321 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:23,440 same time, there's this very poignant moment when they're making 322 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,880 a birthday cake for a brother who can't even be 323 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,039 there to enjoy it. 324 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 3: And that question, is it possible to love someone even 325 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,799 if they've done something reprehensible. I think it's a core 326 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,960 of why it is sometimes very hard for abusive partners 327 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:42,039 abuse victims to leave their abusive partner. Because I hate 328 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:45,839 what you do, but I still love you is definitely 329 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,119 it's an emotion that you can hold inside of you. 330 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,920 I think we've all had moments with parents or siblings 331 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,079 or something where you said, I don't I love you, 332 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,839 but I don't like you very much. I have I 333 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,440 have experience in that arena with members of my family. 334 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,680 I can love you with my whole heart, but boy, 335 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,440 I don't like you a whole hell of a lot. 336 00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:13,839 I think that's possible to do, but it's still hard. 337 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 2: This is a real struggle I think for all of 338 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,640 us to wrap our brains around and then I can't 339 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,359 imagine some of what the Coburger family has been through. Yeah, 340 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,839 since their brother pled to killing four people. 341 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:35,279 Speaker 3: The article continues. When he entered the guilty plea in July, 342 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,680 his parents attended, with his mother's sobbing in the front row. 343 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,759 Weeks later, when he was sentenced, Ms Coburger had hoped 344 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:44,480 to attend, but she stayed home to care for her father, 345 00:21:44,599 --> 00:21:48,079 who had developed heart problems. They watched the hearing together 346 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,799 on television. Some of the victims' family members, given a 347 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,200 chance to address the court, unloaded their anger at mister Coburger, 348 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,960 who sat largely in blank face silence. You're definitely a 349 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,920 demon from hell. One family member said, through a lawyer, 350 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:07,920 the truth that is year as dumb as they come. Stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty, 351 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:11,079 said another. The judge said that he could not discern 352 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,279 any redeeming quality in mister Coburger because his grotesque acts 353 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:17,839 of evil have buried and hidden anything that might have 354 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,119 been good or intrinsically human about him. Through it all, 355 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,559 mister Coberger sat with his hands in his lap, nothing 356 00:22:24,599 --> 00:22:26,079 in front of him but a pen and a piece 357 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:28,279 of paper that appeared to have a small drawing on it. 358 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,079 On the Internet, some of the amateur slews watching the 359 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,039 proceedings zoomed in to scrutinize the sketch, speculating that it 360 00:22:35,079 --> 00:22:38,920 appeared to be a dark heart. Ran Coburger keeps creepy 361 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,720 drawing close. During sentencing for quadruple killing, a tabloid headline 362 00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:46,039 declared in truth, Miss Coburger said it was a heart 363 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,720 surrounded by vibrant colors that she herself had drawn for 364 00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:52,400 her brother, even if she could not be there in person, 365 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,319 She said she wanted him to know that he was loved. 366 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:01,319 Speaker 2: Wow, this is, like I said, so so difficult for 367 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,240 them too. Here she is even in this darkest moment 368 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,160 of his trial. She's trying to let him know that 369 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,400 he is still loved. 370 00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 3: Maybe it is as simple as I love you, but 371 00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:19,279 I don't like you very much. I don't like what 372 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,400 you did. I don't approve of what you did, but 373 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,440 you're my brother and I love you. Oh God, that's 374 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,119 got to be so difficult, and it's something like you said, 375 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,559 that they're going to have to live with every day 376 00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:31,799 from now forward. 377 00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 378 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:43,799 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 379 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:48,400 mindover Murder. Some of the investigators that we've known and 380 00:23:48,519 --> 00:23:51,119 many that we've read about as well, have talked about 381 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:56,640 interviewing serial killers and talking to Cereal and Spreek killers 382 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,880 of this type, really working hard to develop a rapport 383 00:24:01,079 --> 00:24:05,759 with those people. But it isn't just for information or 384 00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:10,519 to seek answers in additional unsolved cases or what have you. 385 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:15,799 I think in many of those examples, those investigators end 386 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,160 up building a real relationship with these people even though 387 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,200 they know they've done absolutely horrible things. Many of these examples, 388 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:31,000 we're talking about multiple murderers and senseless crimes not dissimilar 389 00:24:31,079 --> 00:24:34,240 to the Idaho four case. None of this makes sense. 390 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,039 This isn't an argument that escalates ends up in tragedy 391 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,079 or anything like that. This makes no sense. I don't 392 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,720 know what Brian Coberger could even say that would make 393 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,640 this make sense. Yeah, it might be worth studying him 394 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:57,440 from the perspective of law enforcement and psychologists to help 395 00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:01,440 prevent horrible crimes like this from happening again. But I 396 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,000 don't think that he or any of these killers is 397 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:05,839 ever going to be able to provide us with an 398 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,559 answer that satisfies there's a lot of why in our case, 399 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,839 the other families in the Colonial Parkway murders, we're still 400 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,079 wondering why we recognize that in a case that's thirty 401 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:22,839 six to thirty nine years old. There's a good chance 402 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,319 that if we identify the killer or killers in the 403 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,559 Colonial Parkway murders, that they may never see a trial. 404 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:34,079 But we want to know why what happened now. Ultimately, 405 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,440 I think we will know why. I'm not saying that 406 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,440 answer is ever going to make sense to us, no, 407 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,079 because it may just end up being a senseless act. 408 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,880 This feels that way to me in the Idaho four 409 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:51,720 case as well. 410 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 3: When you and I were discussing that we were going 411 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,599 to talk about this week. One of the things that 412 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,880 we kept coming back to was this idea that people 413 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,319 have that how could the Coburgers not have seen this coming? 414 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,240 How could they not have known? One of the things 415 00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:08,960 the through lines that you and I had in our 416 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,680 discussion is that it is very possible not to see 417 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,359 it coming, and whether that is in big or small ways. 418 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,039 In the course of our conversation, we both revealed to 419 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,000 each other that we'd both had experiences of people who 420 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:27,359 were committing financial fraud against us, people that we never 421 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,519 would have guessed and people who we would never in 422 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:33,759 a million years have seen it coming. It is very 423 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:39,799 possible to be a smart, knowledgeable, savvy person and still 424 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:42,640 not be able to see it coming. Whether it is 425 00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:46,799 someone who's stealing your information or taking money out of 426 00:26:46,839 --> 00:26:50,519 your bank account or whatever, it is very possible not 427 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,039 to see it coming. Did you want to share a 428 00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:57,440 little bit about the experience that you had with someone 429 00:26:57,079 --> 00:26:58,640 in those lines? Yeah. 430 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,519 Speaker 2: Sure. Years ago, I had moved in with a woman 431 00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:06,000 I was dating, and it was a unique situation because 432 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,279 I was in my late twenties, she was about the 433 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,359 same age. She had three kids from a previous marriage. 434 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,839 I don't know what the heck I was thinking, but 435 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,440 I ended up moving in with this woman. We rented 436 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,279 a house in a beautiful town called Harvard, Massachusetts, out 437 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:25,960 in the country, and to this day I can't figure 438 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,559 out what the heck I was thinking. So I ended 439 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,400 up with this sort of instant family. She had three 440 00:27:31,519 --> 00:27:35,359 kids who were in elementary school, and they ended up 441 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,839 transferring from the Lowell, Massachusetts school system where they were 442 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:45,720 currently studying, into Harvard's very nice, much smaller school system. 443 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,319 This is a very affluent, rural, beautiful town. But over 444 00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:51,799 the course of that year, I ended up in this 445 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,799 bizarre situation where this woman was stealing money from me, 446 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,559 and I was too stupid to realize that I had 447 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,680 fallen for all of these bizarre lies. I guess that's 448 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,319 what good sex will do. The rest of your brain 449 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,960 is just clearly not working. At the end of the year, 450 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,720 as we got towards the end of our lease, I 451 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:23,359 remember our landlords were getting increasingly worried because word had 452 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:28,480 gotten back to them that my girlfriend had written all 453 00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:34,359 of these bad checks all over Massachusetts where we were living. Fortunately, 454 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,559 she wasn't paying the rent. I was paying the rent, 455 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,480 and she kept promising to make good on money that 456 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,839 she owed me, and it just never happened. And I 457 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,799 remember I was pressing because she was saying she had 458 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,720 money in this bank account and she couldn't get a 459 00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:52,680 hold of anybody from this bankrupt in New Hampshire, and 460 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,200 once that was all settled, she'd get the money and 461 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,720 she'd make good on all these steps to me. In 462 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:02,880 the meantime, I'm covering all the household expenses for our 463 00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:08,240 house and really being stretched financially because I wasn't really 464 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:10,640 in a position to be paying for a household of 465 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,200 five people, herself, me and her to be kids. It 466 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,880 finally dawned on me. I kept pressing her about this 467 00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:21,480 bank in New Hampshire, and of course it was all 468 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,240 a lie. You could see that one coming, although somehow 469 00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:27,799 I couldn't. I remember she gave me this phone number 470 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,720 when I really pressed hard about you need to sort 471 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:33,519 out the situation with this bank. I want the phone 472 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,359 number of this bank, and she gave me a phone number, 473 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,039 and then I finally reversed, engineered the phone number and 474 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:44,079 realized this isn't the bank's phone number, where no one's 475 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,839 ever answering the phone. This is her parents' house in 476 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,559 New Hampshire, where no one is living at that point. 477 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,599 Remember this is before cell phones and before the internet. 478 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,079 It all just fell into place and I realized this 479 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:03,160 whole thing is a lie. Now she didn't kill anybody, 480 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:08,160 and I survived. At the end of this debacle, she's 481 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:14,720 pregnant by another man, oh geez. And I find out 482 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:17,839 that this money that she's supposed to be coming into 483 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:23,359 is a lie, and that everything about this relationship seems 484 00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:26,400 to be a lie. She just saw a live one 485 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,000 meeting me with a good job, and she figured she'd 486 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,079 take advantage of the situation. I don't know if she 487 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,599 thought she was going to be able to pull this 488 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,759 whole thing off somehow, but I remember at the very end, 489 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,240 just every single thing she told me ended up being 490 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:46,440 a lie. I ended up with my parents' garage being 491 00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:51,039 filled with her furniture because she had nowhere to go 492 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:54,839 out of This furniture ended up filling my parents' garage 493 00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,920 at their home, and I remember reaching out to her 494 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,480 and saying, I'll give you until such in such a 495 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:03,039 date two weeks later or something, and then I said, 496 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:05,799 if you don't come and get your stuff. I'm going 497 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,319 to drop it all off at the place where she 498 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,400 was staying, and I'm going to leave it on the 499 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,640 curb because I am done. Man, think back. It was 500 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,839 a long time ago now, but I think back, How 501 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,680 could I be this stupid? How could I be this naive? 502 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,519 How could I have let her steal thousands and thousands 503 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:27,480 of dollars from me, none of which she ever paid. Yeah, 504 00:31:27,519 --> 00:31:31,400 our relationship fell apart. She ended up having this baby 505 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,000 with this other idiot. Good luck to him, by the way. 506 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,920 And it was one of those things where years later 507 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,480 I actually wondered, in one of my darker moments, could 508 00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:46,119 that have been my child? Now later, when I did 509 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,359 see DNA testing, it didn't appear to be the case. 510 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,119 But you just end up thinking to yourself, how could 511 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,559 I be that stupid while she was doing all of 512 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,680 this stuff, writing bad checks, stealing money from me. But 513 00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:05,680 you realize that you can't know what's going on inside 514 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,039 that other person's head, her decision to commit multiple acts 515 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:13,640 of fraud. I'm just lucky I got out of the 516 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,440 situation reasonably intact. 517 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 3: Well. One of the other things that I think is 518 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,319 important to discuss that we haven't really talked about here before, 519 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,799 is once you've been the victim of a crime, or 520 00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,160 you've been taken in like you were, because you kept saying, 521 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,559 how can I be so stupid? And you're in your twenties? 522 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:36,480 Everybody stupid when they're in their twenties. 523 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:41,039 Speaker 2: You can't move past the great sex covers a multitude 524 00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:41,599 of sins. 525 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 3: Sure, that's true, absolutely, but it's one of the things 526 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,440 that I think comes back over and over, and this 527 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:52,799 goes for anybody inside the true crime space. I think, 528 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,839 is this feeling of shame. How can I be so stupid? 529 00:32:57,039 --> 00:32:59,440 Why didn't I see it sooner? How could I have 530 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:04,039 fallen for that? That covers such a wide variety of 531 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:08,640 experiences inside the space. Why didn't I say something? Why 532 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,640 didn't I do something? And the answer is exactly what 533 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,720 you said. You can't really know what's actually going on, 534 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:17,200 and even when you're in the middle of a situation, 535 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:19,559 sometimes you can't know it. We're just going to do 536 00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:23,680 true confessions Kristin style this episode. Yeah, I had already 537 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:27,079 said last episode that I did not talk much about 538 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:30,160 what had happened with Lynn, but I did then. And 539 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,000 the other thing that I have not really had a 540 00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:35,599 chance to go into here, but I think I will 541 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:40,400 a bit going forward with our audience's patients and forbearance 542 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,160 is that I am an abuse and assault survivor. One 543 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,000 of the great challenges that I have faced in the 544 00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:53,359 last couple of years going to trauma therapy for what 545 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:59,240 happened to me was asking myself that question, how could 546 00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:02,960 I not have seen this? How could I not have 547 00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:07,559 been aware of this? Why did I stay? And how 548 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:11,000 can someone who is as smart as I am? Because 549 00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:15,239 I feel like my intelligence is my hottest commodity. How 550 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,960 can someone as smart as I am be so damn dumb? 551 00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:23,079 And that is a question that I come back to 552 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,679 over and over again. 553 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:28,639 Speaker 2: But even you being yourself up, yes in a way 554 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,280 that this has happened to millions of people. 555 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 3: Christ, Yes it does. And that is I think one 556 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,280 of the biggest things that I want to make sure 557 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,559 we start talking about on the podcast more for people 558 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:45,239 who have survived. When you survive something like this, there 559 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,199 is no shame to be had on your part. The 560 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,760 shame is in the people who have perpetrated what was 561 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,360 done to you exactly. But boy, did it take me 562 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,280 multiple years of going to trauma therapy for that one 563 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,920 to sink in, and there are many times when it 564 00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:05,920 still hasn't. There are times when I feel like I 565 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,559 let myself down when I needed myself the most, and 566 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:15,400 I'm ashamed and embarrassed for that. But I think there 567 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,360 is not a single person inside the true crime space 568 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,159 that hasn't felt something along those lines, whether it's financial 569 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,920 fraud like what you experienced, not being able to leave 570 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,320 an abusive partner like I experienced, or anything in betwhether 571 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,559 it's a romance scam or anything else. Shame is really 572 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:39,159 at the heart of those sort of negative, ugly feelings 573 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,639 that come along with surviving something like this, and it's important, 574 00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:46,519 I think, to be able to talk about it and say, 575 00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:49,559 you know what, someone who commits these sort of crimes 576 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:53,159 against others, they are wired very differently from the rest 577 00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:56,880 of us, and they don't feel those same senses and 578 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,119 those same emotions as the rest of us do. I 579 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:04,320 do not think my abuser had any shame whatsoever for 580 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,280 what he did to me. 581 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 2: No, probably not. 582 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 3: Even though I'm spending a lot of time thinking about 583 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,760 him and the relationship that we had, I can guarantee 584 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,239 you he's not given a thought to me. I'm fine 585 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,079 with that, by the way, Yes. 586 00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 2: But you're working through that through therapy has great benefit 587 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,159 for you as a person. He doesn't matter anymore. No, 588 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:35,599 if he ever did, your mental health and healthy outlook 589 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,920 on life with all of his challenges is incredibly important. 590 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,000 This is about you, It was not about him. Yeah, 591 00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:47,599 And this is you living your life in the most positive, 592 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:53,239 healthy life affirming way that you can and learning these lessons. 593 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,880 I hope I have done the same. I think it's 594 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,960 real important that this be about you and your ongoing 595 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:08,079 positive outlook and good healthy relationships in all facets, whether 596 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:13,159 it's a romantic partnership, or work, or school or all 597 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,000 these things you want to try to have healthy relationships. 598 00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:18,920 And that effort that you're making and have made over 599 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,360 the last several years, I think has been incredibly beneficial 600 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,119 for you in terms of you returning to a place 601 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:28,760 where you know love and respect yourself and expect other 602 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,280 people to love and respect you in a way that 603 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,440 you deserve. Yeah, but that takes a while. That isn't 604 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,079 a matter of a five minute pep talk from me 605 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,880 or anybody else, or even even that first hour of 606 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,679 trauma therapy. It takes a while to get there, you're 607 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,039 trying to make changes and break patterns. 608 00:37:48,519 --> 00:37:51,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly need to be. 609 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: Broken and reaffirmed in positive ways. And I see a 610 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,880 lot of strides on your part, and you're to be 611 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:02,719 congratulated for that. You think you've worked hard. I think 612 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,320 you've gotten to a better place. 613 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. If there's anything that I want our listeners to 614 00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:13,280 take from us as we move forward into this here, 615 00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:17,719 it's that when we talk about all facets of true crime, 616 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,639 we want to talk about it in all of its 617 00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:24,480 all of it its many faces, whether that is talking 618 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:27,679 to the authors who write about it, the people who 619 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,960 survived it, the people who study it, the people who 620 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,559 prosecute it. But we also want to make sure that 621 00:38:33,599 --> 00:38:36,840 we're making more of an effort to address how you 622 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,239 work to overcome it, how to survive it, and how 623 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,639 to thrive in spite of it, because it is possible. 624 00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:46,199 I want to take a second just to shout out 625 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,960 to of the women who have been most instrumental in 626 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,239 helping me believe that I can survive and thrive in 627 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,679 spite of victimization on my part, and that is Jane 628 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,559 Carson and Sandler Total Badass and Kathy Kleiner Rubin, who 629 00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:08,119 have both been nothing but endlessly supportive of me as 630 00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:11,719 I've gone through this journey in the last couple of years. 631 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,280 For every woman out there who is going through something 632 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,159 like this, for every person who is trying to cope 633 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:24,480 and come back from dealing with a crime perpetrated against them, 634 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,360 a bad relationship, whatever else, there is hope out there. 635 00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:32,559 And one of the things we would like to focus 636 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:35,920 on this year is acknowledging that you can survive, you 637 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,079 can thrive, you can move forward, and you can do good. 638 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,360 The abuse that was done to you, or the crime 639 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,599 that was committed against you is not what defines you. 640 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,119 And that was the best thing that I took from 641 00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:52,079 Crime Con Denver this year was the group that made 642 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:56,559 sure everyone who had gone through abuse understood you are 643 00:39:56,599 --> 00:39:59,320 not what happened to you. You are bigger than that. 644 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880 So our hope for this year is that we spend 645 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,719 a little more time focusing on that. Any final words 646 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,760 on this article with regard to the Coburger family or 647 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,440 about anything else that we've talked about, Bill, because this 648 00:40:13,559 --> 00:40:16,920 was a lot and it delved into some really deep issues. 649 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 2: I think the article was a great jumping off point 650 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,360 for us for this discussion over these two episodes. And 651 00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:27,559 it's not my place to tell the Coburgers what to do, 652 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:30,079 but I have a feeling that this is a family 653 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,599 that could probably do with some counseling. Mel's struggle mel 654 00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:38,440 Coberger's struggles here are very evident. They're right here on 655 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,960 the page. You can see the pain and the struggle 656 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,639 that she is going through. I hope that she's able 657 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,840 to work this through and that the whole family can 658 00:40:50,119 --> 00:40:53,800 move past this. This is going to be very difficult. 659 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:56,880 If Brian Coberger lives a long life, he will be 660 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,159 her brother for decades. With their very distinctive last name 661 00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:05,480 and the infamy, if you will, that's attached to this case. 662 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,400 I think this is going to be a struggle. So 663 00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:11,360 I would urge her or any of us to take 664 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:16,719 steps to try to manage these challenges and see their 665 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:17,239 way through. 666 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,039 Speaker 3: Agreed, that is going to do it for this episode 667 00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:23,559 of Mind over Murder. If you like the work that 668 00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:26,360 we're doing here, please leave us five star ratings and 669 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,000 reviews wherever you review your podcasts, and please make sure 670 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:33,599 that you do check out our live events. We have 671 00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:36,079 a couple that are coming up later in the year. 672 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,840 Crime Con Las Vegas is going to be one of those, 673 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,519 and we are also speaking again here locally at Chesapeake 674 00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:47,280 Library is Murder, Mystery and Mayhem, and we'll probably have 675 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,320 some other live events up our sleeves too. To start 676 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,000 marking your calendars for April and May. If you want 677 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,320 to have a chance to see Bill or I live 678 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,000 and in person, it's going to do it for this 679 00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:01,000 episode of mind Ever Murder. Ky so much for listening. 680 00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:02,719 We'll see you next time. 681 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,599 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 682 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,119 another Dog Productions. 683 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,039 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 684 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 685 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 686 00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 687 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 688 00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:37,679 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 689 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,639 Murders on Facebook. 690 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 691 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,039 Bill Thomas five six. 692 00:42:44,519 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.