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Speaker 1: Arrow dot Net is more than just a podcast, It

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is a podcast network, twenty different podcasts to choose from.

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One of my favorites is Foody Paradise, talking with the

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chefs who truly understand what it's like to be at

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home in your own kitchen chefing a beautiful moment. That's

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the kind of respect these chefs have for you. Plus,

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dot net, arr Oe dot net. Enjoy your exploration. Look,

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I gotta tell you something. I wish I was a

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fly on the wall with you today because the people

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that you're gonna be sharing conversations with, I would love

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to just hear their emotion. Because what you've got here

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is a book that has been long called for and

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how you found it in your heart to finally take

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that step to talk about Moses Malone and the Doctor

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and stuff, because this cannot be lost history and you're

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proving that and you're showing us that, you know what,

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there was a time when the geniuses of the game

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were the geniuses and they knew it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. I really looked across

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this subject. I mean, Moses and the Doctor. You can't

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ask for a better protagonists than that.

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Speaker 1: What was it about Moses that I mean? Because I

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mean to this day, I hear his name and I

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just sit there and go, oh God, I got to

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talk to somebody, because I got to tell them how

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great it was to just fall witness to him. As

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well as the doctor.

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Speaker 2: Moses Malone was somebody who was so tough to get

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to know. He was the prodigy in high school. He

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really was the number one recruited sort of person in

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the country, and of course he jumped straight from high

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school to the pros, which adds to his mystique. But

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he himself was a rather closed off, introverted individual. He

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did not want to talk to the press. He very

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rarely told his story. And so therefore a lot of

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the idea of Moses Malone, that dominant figure, has been

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lost among newer generations. They simply don't know who he

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was and how great he was. Well.

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Speaker 1: I love getting into a crowd of people who are

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sporting these T shirts that have these famous basketball players

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on it, and dude, I'll call him out. I'll say,

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do you know who Moses Maloney is? And they'll go,

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it's a T shirt that I picked up and I go,

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can we just talk for a moment, because you start

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talking about how they were on the court and then

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the arenas they played in. My god, I mean, it's

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like this huge movie all all but stuffed into both

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of these men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, both of both of those guys at one point

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were the number one players up there. I mean, Moses

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and the Doctor started in the American Basketball Association. This

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is Doctor Julius serving, and they were sort of the lead,

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the lead players. I think that what happens is is

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that NBA basketball history has been flattened a little bit

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so that the eighties now are the decade of Magic

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Johnson and Larry Bird. And we have this narrative that

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goes on that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird saved the

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NBA was in a sort of a dire state, plagued

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by drug issues and image isshoes and money problems, and

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Magic and Larry Bird really kind of elevated it into

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the global sport that we know today. But that really

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neglects a lot of the other people that were equally

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as instrumental in doing that, none more so than Julius

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Irving and Moses Malone, who in the early eighties were

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sort of swapping MVPs, going to the finals one after another.

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Couldn't quite get over the hump of winning that championship,

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which is why they needed to come together.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm so glad that you included the ABA in

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this because that is a lost form of professional basketball,

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and that's the league that my brother and I were

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heavily inspired by by growing up in the state of Montana,

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because we felt like that if we could create our

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own little basketball teams with that nerf basketball in the

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living room and call ourselves ABA players, our next step

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was the NBA. And so you I got to tell

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you where my heart went in this book. You took

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me back to my childhood. Dude.

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Speaker 2: That's funny because I think that your sentiment there that

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you had that nerf basketball hoop and you were probably

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doing some crazy shots. You would probably just trying every

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single thing you could. That was the spirit of the ABA.

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The ABA had a more wide open set of play.

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It had the three point line, which the NBA did

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not have, which drew people more to the perimeter, so

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people like Julius Irving could attack the basket and while

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he was there, he was unafraid to try these sort

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of creative, improvisational moves that he got straight from the

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playground and sort of invent a new form of playing

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basketball that was more aerial, more spontaneous, more creative. And

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he really brought that with him into the NBA. And

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so that sort of style of play you see now,

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that was sort of, you know, pioneered by then Michael

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Jordan than Kobe Bryant. All that I mean that really

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comes from the ABA and Julius Irving in particular. They

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pioneered that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I always thought they could fly, and I'm I

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was that kid in the nineteen seventies and eighties that

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thought that if anybody's going to teach me how to fly,

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it was either going to be the doctor or the

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way that Moses would shoot. Do you realize today, even

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when I'm putting paper in the trash, can I try

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to shoot like Moses?

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Speaker 2: He tried to shoot like Moses. So you purposely try

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to miss so that you can graduate. Rea. Stop that.

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Speaker 1: You stopped that. I'm watching the I'm watching the hand.

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I'm not watching where that ball goes. You stopped that.

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Speaker 2: Ah. Now, Moses had a very distinct style of play,

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and yeah, he did he did have it. He did

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have a good jumper. But I mean, the thing about

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Moses was he was just so relentless. He would come

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at you and come at you and come at you.

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He had an energy that never stopped. He wanted to

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get that ball as if it were his last meal.

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And so his sort of style of play, which was

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sort of more sort of gritty, more sort of like

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just kind of bumping and grinding. It was very different

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than Julius Herbin, who was graceful, who was flying through

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the air, who was known for sort of his artistry.

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Moses was the grinder, and he was known for more labor.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because he reminded me so much of the guy

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that was going to get the job done, whereas the

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Doctor would sit there and say, let me try this

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so that others will soon follow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the sort of reason why whenever Moses

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and the Doctor came together on the nineteen eighty three

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Philadelphia seventy six ers into place so well, because Julius

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Irving was a great creator. He could go to the basket,

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he could think of new ways to score, but he

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needed somebody who was going to do the dirty work

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on the back end. And that's where Moses really came in.

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And so these two complimented each other to such a

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great extent that there wasn't a lot of ego on

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that team because they were doing something so totally different,

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and when they came together, it's like they just ran

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the table because they filled in what the other needed.

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Speaker 1: Please don't move. There's more with Luke Eplin coming right up. Hey,

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thanks for coming back to my conversation with Luke Epplin.

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This is where you're going to call me a freak,

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and you can write it off that he's just that

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dude from Montana with that prairie land. But I'll tell

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you what, on my entire childhood, I always believe Julius

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Irving really, so that means that he's the guy that

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created Orange Julius. I have to go to Orange Julius

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because I may see Julius Irving at Orange Julius. That

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is the god's honest truth, dude.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not an irrational thing to think, because

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Julius Irvin was really one of the first professional basketball

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players who was a marketing god. At that time. He

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was advertising chepstick, he was advertising converts, he was advertising

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hollaroid cameras. He was really one of the people who

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put himself forward as an ambassador not only to professional basketball,

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but to corporate America, to Hollywood. He was in Hollywood movies,

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and so the idea that Julius Irving could be hockey

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orange Julius, I mean, it was in keeping with his character.

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That was a possibility.

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Speaker 1: I love the idea that you brought up that they

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were street sensations because too many times a lot of

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the journalists will sit there and say, no, they didn't

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come from the street, or no, they didn't come from

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the YMCA. There is brilliant ball at that level of play,

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and these two guys are proof of that.

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Speaker 2: Especially Julius Irving, who really was kind of under recruited

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in high school. He made his name on the playground

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courts around New York City, particularly in Rutger Park. I mean,

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whenever Julius Irving came to Rutger Park and started doing

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his crazy dunks and his moves from jumping from one

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end of the basket to the other, he started attracting

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crowds that grew so thick that they would climb fences,

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they would climb buildings, congregate on roofs. I mean, he

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really was the sensation of the playground and he brought

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that playground style into the ABA. A lot of coaches

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would have pulled people from trying those playground moves, but

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Julius Irving professionalized that he was the one who really said, no, no,

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this is not a bad move. I'm doing this because

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it's fundamental to who I am and how I play well.

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Speaker 1: As kids, we couldn't get to the YMCA and buildings Montana,

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so we went to the elementary school playground. You always

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talked about the playground and my father was so pissed

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off as and I said, Dad, I got to go

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play basketball like them. And he'd say, if there's a

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broken window at the school, then your friend Julius Irving

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is the one that broke it because he felt he

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needed to put you on that basketball court at the school.

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And it was like, okay, I'm going then. Because that's

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the kind of influence he had on young adults, dude, I.

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Speaker 2: Think that's exactly right. I mean, I think that Julius

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Irving was somebody that fired kids not only to want

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to see him, but then to want to emulate him.

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And so there go out on the playground and try

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his various moves, which is why whenever someone like Michael

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Jordan comes into the league, he can immediately start off

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doing these sort of interesting, improvisational, creative moves because he

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grew up watching Julius Irving do them. Julius Irving had

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set the blueprint that Michael Jordan was then able to

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seamlessly step into.

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Speaker 1: Well. I've always believed that the reason why Jordan got

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great was because all the players before him were were

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uniforms that were too tight, and Michael Jordan was the

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right kill me. I'm not right right here because I

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mean because once Jordan came in, everybody loosened up on

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that court.

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Speaker 2: He did he was the first one to wear the

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baggy shorts. I mean, you gotta give him that. I mean,

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if doctor j had just worn such a little bag

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ear he could have he could have really dominated.

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Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about you?

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Because first of all, I want them to be able

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to know who you are and what you're doing, that

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you are the real deal when it comes to preserving

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the true history of that sport.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. You can go to my website Luke Eplin

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dot com you can get in contact with me there.

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I'd be happy to send you a signed book plate

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for your copy of The Doctor.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll come back to this show at any time

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in the future, because the door is always going to

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be open for you. Dude.

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Speaker 2: Thanks man, I had a great time be brilliant today. Okay,

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all right, take it easy.