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<v Speaker 1>Or taxi.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm around.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the seventy seven WABC Mini Cast.

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<v Speaker 1>We are back, folks. This is Steve Moore, Economist. This

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<v Speaker 1>is the More Money Show. And thank you for tuning in.

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<v Speaker 1>I always say we have the smartest audience in the country,

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<v Speaker 1>so we will be taking your calls later in the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't call in yet, wait till maybe twenty twenty to

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<v Speaker 1>thirty minutes from now will be will be taking your

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<v Speaker 1>cause about what is your solution? Give me one or

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<v Speaker 1>two solutions to bringing down this national debt. But I

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<v Speaker 1>want to talk a little bit about politics and economics

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<v Speaker 1>with two of the very best in the business. I

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<v Speaker 1>always bring them back because they're so popular in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of we've got great listener response when they are on.

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<v Speaker 1>One of them is John Fun. You know John Fun

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<v Speaker 1>from his many many years at the Wall Street Journal.

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<v Speaker 1>He was also he's also been a senior writer at

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<v Speaker 1>National Review. You see him on Fox News all the

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<v Speaker 1>time and so on. And then we have Tom del

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<v Speaker 1>Bacarro is also a good friend. Tom. You see him

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<v Speaker 1>on Fox all the time. He is an author of

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<v Speaker 1>many books, and Tom tell us about your most recent ones.

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<v Speaker 1>But also he ran the Republican party. He was the

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<v Speaker 1>chairman of the Republican Party in California, so he knows

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<v Speaker 1>about how to deal with liberals. Gentlemen, thank you for joining.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe I'll start by asking you both, just take one

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<v Speaker 1>or two minutes, what would your two best ideas be

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<v Speaker 1>to help bring down the national debt? And Tom del Bacarro,

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<v Speaker 1>I will start with you, my friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, at the end of the day, we have a

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<v Speaker 2>spending problem, yes, not a revenue problem, that's true, and

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<v Speaker 2>the parties need to get serious about that because we

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<v Speaker 2>hit forty trillion and the biggest problem in the budget

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<v Speaker 2>today is interest on the debt. It's overtaken defense. It's

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<v Speaker 2>overtaking so security and medicare eventually. So we have a

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<v Speaker 2>spending problem and the parties need to get serious about that.

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<v Speaker 2>And the Democrats are offering only more spending. So this

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<v Speaker 2>election is what matters to the debt, because the Republicans

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<v Speaker 2>need to say to the American people, you have but

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<v Speaker 2>two choices here, humor and one point trillion more in

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<v Speaker 2>spending and more inflation and making it harder to get

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<v Speaker 2>a car and harder to buy a home. Or our

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<v Speaker 2>program which will be to reduce the fraud that is

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<v Speaker 2>helping to save social security or not. So A we

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<v Speaker 2>promise to do less spending and B we're the ones

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<v Speaker 2>who can grow the economy.

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<v Speaker 1>Not to democrats, jaumpund, what are your favorite solutions to

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<v Speaker 1>bringing down this enormous debt that's gone on now for

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<v Speaker 1>forty to fifty years. It just keeps bigger and bigger,

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<v Speaker 1>and people are concerned. Justify So if you were Donald

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<v Speaker 1>Trump or a member of Congress, what would your solution be?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, not to repeat Tom's excellent suggestions, I would say

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<v Speaker 3>the recent shortage of munitions and weaponry and missiles that

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<v Speaker 3>we have because of use in Ukraine and Iran tell

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<v Speaker 3>us we really need to improve. Finally, our socialistic military

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<v Speaker 3>procurement system. Donald Trump has made a good start on that,

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<v Speaker 3>but we need to bring AI and we need to

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<v Speaker 3>bring a form of private sector competition so that four

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<v Speaker 3>or five defense contractors don't use cost plus contracts to

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<v Speaker 3>gouge the taxpayer, and that would actually, over time, would

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<v Speaker 3>save a lot of money and give us a better

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<v Speaker 3>and more flexible military. Secondly, and might have to wait

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<v Speaker 3>until after Donald Trumplic's office, we are going I think

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<v Speaker 3>the next president, assuming it's a Republican, and maybe even

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<v Speaker 3>if it's a Democrat. We need to expand the savings

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<v Speaker 3>opportunities that people have to save for their retirement. It

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<v Speaker 3>probably won't mean touching Social Security, but I think we

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<v Speaker 3>can dramatically expand on the Trump accounts and the iras

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<v Speaker 3>and the savings plans that people are allowed to have.

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<v Speaker 3>Even Governor Gavin Wilson held a press conference this week

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<v Speaker 3>in California praising the Trump thrift accounts for young people.

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<v Speaker 1>So I like both those answers. I just would disagree.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, look, we can do something about Social Security.

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<v Speaker 1>It's time we put that young people.

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<v Speaker 3>Del Trump is poisoned. Donald Trump's personality has poisoned that.

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<v Speaker 3>We're going to have to wait for another president.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, so it's only two years away. But my

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<v Speaker 1>point is, Tom, we need to allow people to put

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<v Speaker 1>young people like my kids, they should be able to

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<v Speaker 1>take twelve percent of their paycheck and put that money

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<v Speaker 1>into a private indexed fund where they'll get three times

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<v Speaker 1>the benefit. And when they do that, you're reducing the

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<v Speaker 1>long term debt because they the government won't owe them

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<v Speaker 1>any money. What's wrong with that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, from my perspective, to keep in mind that FDR

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<v Speaker 2>actually wanted a program that look like that. Singapore has

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<v Speaker 2>always had the program like that, and one of the

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<v Speaker 2>reasons why Singapore's economy does so well is because all

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<v Speaker 2>that money gets reinvested into the Singapore economy. So John's

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<v Speaker 2>I agree with John that it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>difficult transition in that regard. But at the end of

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<v Speaker 2>the day, our government is causing its own problem of

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<v Speaker 2>running out of resources. Now these kids face a definite

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<v Speaker 2>problem in the future. So look, I'm in favor of that,

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<v Speaker 2>But Republicans need to start controlling the narrative. They don't

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<v Speaker 2>have a narrative yet for this fall. Fortunately the Democrats

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<v Speaker 2>are rescuing them with their own civil war and socialism.

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<v Speaker 2>But Republicans need to win this midterm and come up

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<v Speaker 2>with the narrative as to why they're going to do

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<v Speaker 2>it before very long, I mean within the next two

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<v Speaker 2>and a half three weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>So I agree with that. And by the way, I

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<v Speaker 1>was on with Liz Peak earlier. You both know Liz,

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<v Speaker 1>and we were talking about this issue and she made

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<v Speaker 1>I thought a really interesting comment. I want both of

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<v Speaker 1>your reaction to this. We have to stop calling these

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<v Speaker 1>people these crazy people have been winning these democratic elections

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats socialists and call them communists. Because you saw, John,

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<v Speaker 1>I think you have submitted the item in our hotline

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<v Speaker 1>the other day that the Democrat socialists basically celebrated celebrated

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<v Speaker 1>the one hundred birthday of one of the greatest villains

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<v Speaker 1>of the twentieth century, a communist who killed tens of

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of his own people and threw an entire country

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<v Speaker 1>into a massive poverty. And that's Fidel Castro. And they

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<v Speaker 1>also celebrate, by the way, Shea Gavera, Shay Gavera, was

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<v Speaker 1>one of the greatest butchers that ever lived, and they

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<v Speaker 1>celebrate him. They're commune. They do not disassociate with those people.

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<v Speaker 1>So you know this is I'm opening us up to

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<v Speaker 1>both of you. We should call these people communists, John, go.

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<v Speaker 3>Ahead, Well I'm not. You know, it's a fine line

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<v Speaker 3>between conducting arguments with them about their policies and pointing

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<v Speaker 3>out their contradictions and using the famous word. That's simply

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<v Speaker 3>I think calling someone a communist if they say they're

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<v Speaker 3>not a communist, brings you back to you know, you're

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<v Speaker 3>just being Joe McCarthy again. So yes, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>we need to make the ASSISI I would say communist

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<v Speaker 3>adjacent is a good phrase. That means it means you're

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<v Speaker 3>basically in bed with the communists, even if you don't

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<v Speaker 3>clean yourself one.

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<v Speaker 1>So here's the thing, Yeah, here's the thing to argue

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<v Speaker 1>that they're not that. Yeah. By the way, though a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the people of Macarthy accused of being communists

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<v Speaker 1>were communists, but I wouldn't want to get into that.

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<v Speaker 1>But but the point is that, Tom, if you look

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<v Speaker 1>at the public opinion about socialists, Americans are pretty split

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<v Speaker 1>on socialism. If you ask people like conoism, it's ninety

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<v Speaker 1>to ten against it. That's why I think changing the

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<v Speaker 1>terminology might be advantageous.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, you definitely. I think what we need to

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<v Speaker 2>keep in mind is people always want to know what

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to do for them with their next vote,

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<v Speaker 2>and I agree that we should call it what it

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<v Speaker 2>is that they are. Many of these people are actually

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<v Speaker 2>saying they want to seize the means of production, which

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<v Speaker 2>means they want to seize your money to pay for

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<v Speaker 2>their programs in a very real sense. But Republicans don't

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<v Speaker 2>aren't saying what they're going to do next, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>therefore you can't beat you can't beat their giveaway with

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<v Speaker 2>you r nothing. And so I have no problem of

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<v Speaker 2>saying what you know Piker is suggesting, or saying what

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<v Speaker 2>Mundamie's actually doing, or what Sayid wants to do. But

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<v Speaker 2>if the Republicans don't get to the point where they're saying,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to address your needs doing these five things,

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<v Speaker 2>then voters don't have anything to beat. The communist comment. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>they may be communists, but at least they're going to.

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<v Speaker 1>Do something for me. Yeah. So one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that is, you both know, we have a big event

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<v Speaker 1>coming up, Unleashed Prosperity, and Nick Shirley will be one

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<v Speaker 1>of the people we're celebrating as the journalist of the

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<v Speaker 1>year because he is the journalist of the year. He

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<v Speaker 1>did something that none of the networks could do. That

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<v Speaker 1>sixty minutes never did that, wash Your Post or Wall

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<v Speaker 1>Street Journal or New York Times ever did, which is

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<v Speaker 1>exposed the massive fraud in these government programs. It took

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<v Speaker 1>a twenty year old kid with an iPhone to do it,

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<v Speaker 1>or what none of the people in the media would do.

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<v Speaker 1>And now John, Well, this is for both of you

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<v Speaker 1>because you're both from California, and now they have a

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<v Speaker 1>law in CALIFORNI I mean, I'm just so stunned by this.

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<v Speaker 1>That basically is the Shut Up Nick Shirley Act, which

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<v Speaker 1>basically makes what he did illegal. It's almost, as I said,

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<v Speaker 1>you know earlier on the show, It's almost like if

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<v Speaker 1>you see somebody robbing a bank and you tackle them,

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<v Speaker 1>and then the police come and arrest you, not the

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<v Speaker 1>bank robber. Sow. What do you make of this?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the liberals, progressives, the democratic socialists only support free

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<v Speaker 3>speech when it was the old days and there were

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<v Speaker 3>only three networks and there were only a couple of

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<v Speaker 3>right national newspapers. Once you have a diversified citizen journalist

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<v Speaker 3>network out there where Tom and I and others can

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<v Speaker 3>communicate directly with people, they're suddenly against free speech and

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<v Speaker 3>they want to shut people up. This bill is astonished

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<v Speaker 3>and California already protects people from intimidation and threats. This

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<v Speaker 3>bill goes beyond that and basically limits journalists what they

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<v Speaker 3>can say, what they can post, because they want to

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<v Speaker 3>protect fraudsters, including the fraud network that I made California

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<v Speaker 3>Medicaid one of the great taxpayer sinkholes of our time.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, it's Tom. What are your thoughts about this?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I actually I am looking forward to this fight

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<v Speaker 2>because it's a great opportunity for Republicans to demonstrate what

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<v Speaker 2>America is about.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>This law is plainly unconstitutional. What it sits on Newsom's desk,

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<v Speaker 2>and if he's dumb enough to go along with this

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<v Speaker 2>or support it, then this is what the election of

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<v Speaker 2>this is going to be about. For the presidents in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty eight? Are you going to have an economy

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<v Speaker 2>controlled by the government that is failing you in San Francisco,

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<v Speaker 2>in La in New York City. A year ago, I

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<v Speaker 2>wrote a piece that Mandamie, Johnson and Bass would define

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<v Speaker 2>the Democrat Party. I made an understatement in doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is defining twenty twenty eight for me, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm okay with.

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<v Speaker 1>That me too. I mean, this is you know, these

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<v Speaker 1>are the people who've talked about freedom of speech and

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<v Speaker 1>freedom of the process, and of course this is a

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<v Speaker 1>First Amendment issue. And John you know, I've looked at

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<v Speaker 1>some of these videos. To call this intimidation, all he

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<v Speaker 1>did was knock on the door and said, show us

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<v Speaker 1>where your kids are in the daycare center, where you're getting,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, twenty thousand dollars per kid, you know, per month,

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<v Speaker 1>and there were no kids, and he exposed a massive fraud.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't know how that's intimidation.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, if you're used to sucking at the tex spayer

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<v Speaker 3>teat anything that upsets your livelihood is intimidation. Is well,

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<v Speaker 3>this is a threat to your lifestyle, right, and people

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<v Speaker 3>will fight like hell to deserve their lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 1>Why do you think it is this is either of you,

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<v Speaker 1>because both of you are everywhere in the media that

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<v Speaker 1>the media just has refused to cover this story. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean of the fraud, of the rampant fraud. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>remember back in the sixties and seventies, this was this

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<v Speaker 1>was kind of the story that sixty minutes would do.

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<v Speaker 1>And they'd never do this kind of thing anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>Tom, I think will agree with me. Government has changed

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<v Speaker 3>in the last forty or fifty years. It used to

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<v Speaker 3>be we were worried about government bureaucrats. Now we're worried

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<v Speaker 3>about the welfare industrial complex. There's hundreds and hundreds of

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<v Speaker 3>NGOs in California and other states that technically or nonprofit,

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<v Speaker 3>technically or private, but they basically take taxpayer money, spend

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<v Speaker 3>it on themselves. Look at the salaries that some of

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<v Speaker 3>the chief executives of these NGOs nonprofits have, and they're

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<v Speaker 3>in a non holy alliance with the government officials. And

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<v Speaker 3>the government officials then go to these nonprofits and say, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>by the way, my wife, like Governor Newsom's wife, is

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<v Speaker 3>running this nice nonprofit. Wouldn't it be nice if you

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<v Speaker 3>could donate something for nonprofit and give employment to all

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<v Speaker 3>of our friends. It is an insidious, insidious conspiracy to

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<v Speaker 3>use government to create an entire parallel network of support

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<v Speaker 3>for these progressives.

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<v Speaker 1>Tom, we only got about a minute left. What are

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<v Speaker 1>your thoughts about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Years ago, I wrote a piece in the Washington Times

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<v Speaker 2>that a nonpartisan press is a very rare instance in history.

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<v Speaker 2>Up until the nineteen hundreds, the United States didn't have one,

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<v Speaker 2>and for about forty years we did. But then the

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<v Speaker 2>Vietnam War changed that again. And the left is invested

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<v Speaker 2>in government. We knew that, We saw that with PBS

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<v Speaker 2>and all of that sort of thing. So we live

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<v Speaker 2>in an era where government is trying to protect itself

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<v Speaker 2>from it's from us, the voter. But we also live

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<v Speaker 2>in an era whereas John said, everybody's at the government

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<v Speaker 2>teep and the left and the media are there. They

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<v Speaker 2>want to stay there, and so they're partisan and we

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<v Speaker 2>should just call that what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>As well. I think you guys have done an excellent job.

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<v Speaker 1>That's John Fund formerly Well Street Turtle and now with

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<v Speaker 1>National Review, etc. And Tom del Bacaro, who is the

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<v Speaker 1>former head of the Republican Party in California. A great conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, you've just pointed out why we

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<v Speaker 1>have a forty trillion dollar death because everybody's on the take.

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody's sucking on the tent and when that happens, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>we will go bankrupt if this continues.