WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:05.040 You see, something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.560 What What's going to happen? 3 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:22.719 Heine? What help? 4 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:24.960 What is? 5 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:29.519 What is Plato? But Moses speaking Attic Greek right right, 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:33.200 and he's he's he's Numinius is subtle like he's making 7 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:37.079 a point there and what and and that point speaks 8 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:42.439 to what American conclusions are that that rabbis in exile 9 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:47.240 encountered the writings of Plato, probably at the library of Alexandria, 10 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:51.520 and those writings particularly were the Tamaeis and the laws, 11 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:56.079 and whether or not the Torah existed in some form 12 00:00:56.119 --> 00:01:01.320 prior to that. He demonstrates it argues very very well 13 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:05.920 that if it did exist, it was rewritten after the 14 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:11.359 encounter with Plato. Plato's work after their encounter with Hellenism, 15 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.760 which explains why we get like a mercaba, you know, 16 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:20.840 a soul, the sole chariot that has no precedent other 17 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.439 than the okeema that which means chariot. And it's this 18 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:34.239 sole vehicle, right, So lots of problems there, if you 19 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:34.799 know what I mean. 20 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:39.560 That plays into the the you know, the whole origin 21 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:43.519 of the septuagen translation, which took place in right and 22 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:47.280 right there in Alexandria at that time, and it's it 23 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:50.640 really points to Okay, so like why is it called Genesis? 24 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.560 Why is it called exo Thos? Why is it called. 25 00:01:56.000 --> 00:02:00.000 You know, du These are Greek words. 26 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.159 Yeah, the titles of the books are Greek. 27 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.959 And the substugen number as itself, I think beckons to 28 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:14.319 the harmony of the spheres and the sevenfold celebration of that. 29 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.520 The Alexandria really the average person would have known about 30 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:22.560 and you know, realized that title might have beckoned to. 31 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:26.000 I wonder, and even the allegory of the cave too, 32 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:30.719 I feel like is similar to, if not influential on 33 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:36.520 the Genesis Garden of Eden, right, And I wonder too, 34 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:43.080 what does it say the relationship of the influence, But 35 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:48.560 also that it would seem that there's different expressions and 36 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:55.759 sayings in the Bible from Paul that beckoned directly to Plato. 37 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:59.159 And I wonder, I wonder if you guys have looked 38 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.639 into that or just seen seeing that and what that 39 00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:09.759 might say. 40 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.599 That Well, yeah, I mean. 41 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:18.039 Paul Is is very much associated with uh, not not 42 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:23.759 necessarily Greek philosophy, but certainly with with a place like Athens, right, 43 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:26.240 because he goes there to the ari Opagas rock and 44 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.960 he makes that which if you're standing on the ari 45 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.080 O Pagas, you can see the acropolis directly across, and 46 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:35.599 it would would have been just above the the the Uh, 47 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:39.560 the Placauy and the Agora where everybody met in central 48 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.000 Athens converting people. And if you if you go there today, 49 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.240 there's still there's a plaque with with you know that 50 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:52.520 famous speech about telling people like you don't know what 51 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:56.439 you worship. But in Christianity it's different. We understand these 52 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:57.639 and so on and so forth. 53 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:00.360 To me, it it. 54 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:07.439 I think that he was part of a deeper tradition, 55 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:16.120 a more profound tradition having to do with a platonic worldview. 56 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:21.319 And here's the thing. If you were educated your science 57 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:27.000 in that time, your science was basically platonic, this whole 58 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.879 idea of the cosmos and the nested spheres and stuff 59 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:33.360 like that. The first time we understand the harmony of 60 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:37.800 the spheres, really that is later. It's in neo Pythagoreanism 61 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.639 and the fragments of the early Pythagoreans like Philo Lais, 62 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.240 and they're they're more interested in politics and community living 63 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.639 and what you shouldn't eat and what you should eat, 64 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:50.879 and that kind of stuff is really all the number 65 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:54.800 and harmony stuff comes around this time that we're talking about, 66 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:59.720 you know, Hellenistic period, maybe three hundred years before the 67 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:01.199 first Entry, so on and so forth. 68 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:06.000 But all of that stuff. 69 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.680 You get this, this this cosmology of nested spheres and 70 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.959 things like this, these eight spheres. The first time that 71 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.240 we see that it's positive almost contemporaneous. 72 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:21.040 These two things. You have Eudoxus who gives us that model. 73 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:24.480 He puts that forth into the UH, into the you know, 74 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:29.120 the the learned society of that time. And right around 75 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.759 that same time, like within a year or two, you know, 76 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:38.319 most scholars agree, is when Plato writes or finishes the Republic. 77 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:40.959 And at the end of book ten of the Republic, 78 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:43.120 there's this little section called the myth of Earth that 79 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:46.959 gives us that whole kind of nested sphere cosmology. And 80 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.040 you'll see in the writings of Paul, which kind of 81 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.199 tie into what pt was saying about the Mrkova tradition. 82 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:54.040 He talks about how. 83 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:57.959 You know, he most uh, you know, biblical scholars and 84 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.959 you know, people engaging in hermanutics, they'll say that he 85 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:04.600 was talking about himself. I don't know, but sure he's 86 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.040 talking about I once knew a brother who was assumed, 87 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.839 who was taken up into the Third Heaven. So he's 88 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:14.439 using Platonic verbiage to discuss this is But I don't 89 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:22.519 I don't necessarily know that he's like specifically part of 90 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.199 a of a Platonic I don't know, a Neil, you know, 91 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.920 you know, a Hellenistic sort of like mystery cult. 92 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:30.839 So much as it's like if you just. 93 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:34.079 Look around at the knowledge of the world at that time, 94 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.279 the ancient Mediterranean's all based on Plato already, you know. 95 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.000 So it's like that's like me coming and talking about gravity, 96 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:42.360 and then like you know, in a thousand years people 97 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:43.759 are like, well, maybe this guy. 98 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.839 Was in like you know, the cult of Newton, you know. 99 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.040 It's like, no, it's just everybody fucking knew it. Every 100 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:51.279 everybody knows that guy. 101 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.839 Everybody knows it's taught widely so and that's how we 102 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:58.360 orient like think of that. That's weird, right, the entire 103 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.920 globe almost or orients. There were, at least in the 104 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.560 in the educated aspects. They already they know the concept 105 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:06.600 of gravity. 106 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:06.879 And stuff like that. 107 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.240 So I think it's a similar concept there where Paul is. 108 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.759 It's just the vernacular that he's using, uh, is so 109 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.399 embedded in any kind of learned society. And we know 110 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.160 he you know, he had to have been somewhat learned 111 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:25.639 because he wrote you know, people people Again, you know 112 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.319 p D pointed out earlier, like the ancient worldview and 113 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:34.160 that experience. We've been completely abstracted from that, so we 114 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.040 don't think about like, oh, not everybody could read and write. 115 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:40.000 As a matter of fact, most people couldn't read or write, 116 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:42.959 you know. So if he's if he's dealing in these circles, 117 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.639 he likely has some grounding in the quote unquote science 118 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.000 of his time, which was which was very much so platonic. 119 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:52.040 Yeah, just my thought. 120 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:59.680 The entire tradition of a sacred book, Yeah, incredibly new idea. 121 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:06.040 And in the ancient world, religion was something that was practiced, 122 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.800 it was physical, it was you were completely immersed in it. 123 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:13.560 There wasn't a sacred text that those kinds of things 124 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.480 entered with these mystery traditions when you would get the 125 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:24.879 symbolon the password to get into whatever tradition it is 126 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:30.160 you're exploring, and in regard to Paul. You know, I 127 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:37.399 think it's there's great. What I said is spot on 128 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:43.960 about him ascending into the third heaven. Again, this is 129 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:50.080 another confirmation of a Greek cosmo conception. It doesn't exist 130 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.039 in a vacuum. But as as far as what he 131 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.519 might have been involved with, I can't remember the author's name. 132 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:02.200 There's a book on Paul in the Mysteries of Baptism. 133 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:06.519 I've got it in the other room, but I don't. 134 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:08.320 I don't want to leave you guys and go dig 135 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.120 it up. But I can. 136 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:10.519 I can. 137 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:13.559 If anybody's interested, reach out to me later. I'll give 138 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:15.960 you the title of the book. But it's looking at 139 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:22.159 Paul's very likely involvement with non Christian mystery traditions prior 140 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:27.840 to his conversion. And he is a soldier type figure, 141 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:33.360 which really makes the cult of Methras of very possible. 142 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.799 And and they have that same model of assent of 143 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:40.399 of traveling up through the through the heavens, right to 144 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.759 get to the final grade of Pater of Father, to 145 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.279 meet with the Father, become one with the Father, and 146 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:49.799 then embody the Father as a as a higher event 147 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:54.559 on earth. So it's been argued that he was involved 148 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.120 with them. But as to whether he was and whether 149 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.240 he's even talking about him self, like I said, we 150 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:07.000 we don't know that, but the but we can be 151 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:11.679 certain that he's drawing on Greek tradition when he says that. 152 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.639 I do recall reading about Paul as far as Saul 153 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:24.519 of Tarsus and Tarsus there was a figure called Z's 154 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.080 that was a dead and as sinded god that actually 155 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:32.440 rose to become Osdi's, which is light. So there was 156 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:37.080 a tradition in that region of these this ascended form 157 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.960 that kind of and you see this, that's this development 158 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:45.600 of transcendentalism from going to you know, Shoal, you know 159 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.360 this place, or with the Zoroastrians, the idea of burning 160 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:53.399 off the bad parts so that you could return to 161 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:57.519 the to the monad. It kind of you just see 162 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.039 this evolving and like you said, as far traveling out 163 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.960 and then you have the various night journeys that begin 164 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.639 of all the different profits and how they're taken into 165 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.600 the heavens and showing the workings of the cosmos. So 166 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:14.799 you're seeing this evolution of these transcendental forms of people 167 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:20.759 realizing that there are you know, higher realms of understanding, 168 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:22.440 you know, in time and space. 169 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.960 Yeah, you get a perfect example of that in the 170 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:31.120 Greek magical PAPYRII if you look at the the Methrist liturgy. 171 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.240 In the ritual, they call it a ritual apothenitismos, which 172 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:39.679 means of not dying, of becoming a mortal. But it's 173 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:46.559 it's interesting because this applethitismos isn't permanent. When you come 174 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:51.320 down from the ascent, you are thanitismos again. You can die, 175 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:54.840 You're no longer mortal, you know. So immortality is this 176 00:11:55.000 --> 00:12:01.720 glimpse into eternity. And and yeah, and like the language 177 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.639 is so problematic because if if you say to someone, well, 178 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.919 I experienced eternity, logically, know the fuck you didn't. You're 179 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:12.759 you you weren't at the beginning, there is no end, 180 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.919 You're right here. How can you say that you participated 181 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.960 in eternity. But that's that's how we know that. It's 182 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.480 it's not about a duration of time. It's it's it's 183 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:31.320 that methraic, aon that transcends time, something more like the pleroma. Right, 184 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.440 it's it's outside of time, which young would say that 185 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.279 means it's it's a it's a quality of a quality 186 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:42.240 of consciousness, not a quanta that we can count and 187 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.879 say there's the beginning, there's the end. So in the 188 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:50.159 in that assent ritual really I think the best example 189 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.960 of one uh from from that era. It's wrapped up 190 00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:01.799 with the same expansion of vision, expansion of consciousness. But 191 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:04.399 we always have to come back down, and I think 192 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:08.919 that's important because we're useless as a hermit on top 193 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:12.679 of a mountain praying for the world somewhere like Zarathustra 194 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.159 in Nietzsche, you have to come back down the mountain. 195 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:20.480 Enlightenment isn't climbing the top of the mountain staying there. 196 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:26.080 Enlightenment is is summiting the mountain, coming back down and 197 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:30.559 then allowing what you saw from that perspective to inform 198 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.919 your behavior. When you're late for work, right or when 199 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.159 you're trying to check out at the grocery store, or 200 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:44.399 you're beginning to have road rage. You know, that's the 201 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:48.799 real enlightenment experience. If we don't come back down, we 202 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.759 don't complete the cycle. And that's what I was mentioning 203 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.200 moment A of these cycles that Proclust talks so much about, 204 00:13:55.240 --> 00:14:00.360 we have the Pruodos, the descent, into a body that 205 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.919 coming down from the mountain. But then we have that epistrophae, 206 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:09.679 the return, that anagogic ascent, and it's this cyclic process 207 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:16.720 that maintains a connection between the to you know, to 208 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.240 use a spatial category, which is really fallacious, but we 209 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.600 have to think about it. Somehow maintains that connection between 210 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.279 the gods and man at the bottom of the chain. 211 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:32.519 We have to go up and come back down over 212 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.960 and over and over, even to the point of death 213 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:37.679 and rebirth. 214 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:38.000 Right. 215 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.279 But but really there's no motion, there's no movement. It's 216 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:46.240 happening every second. Genesis is happening constantly, is what the 217 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.480 Kabbala is saying, and I believe that. And then there's 218 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:51.240 a there's an article that came out a few years 219 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.919 ago in Esquire about this guy who went to a 220 00:14:55.039 --> 00:15:02.080 ten deboot retreat and they're practicing vipisana and he goes psychotic, 221 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:05.559 ends up being carried away in handcuffs and taken to 222 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.120 a mental institution because he enters that space where the 223 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:17.200 world is simultaneously dying and being reborn every second, you know, 224 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:22.720 every second, right, So the idea of going up and 225 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:28.799 going down, it's just a convenient way to articulate something 226 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:33.320 that is really ineffable, but is so close and so 227 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.879 present that it's like the fish asking what is water? 228 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:41.559 You know, it's it's you can't put your finger on it. 229 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.279 Yeah, and it's it's. 230 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:48.080 We have this is This is an issue I find 231 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:51.679 with people that come to magic and learn things like 232 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:55.120 the kabbala and and or at least the hermatic kabala, right, 233 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.320 the magical kabala, but especially also in taking students through 234 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.759 the Platonic dialogue is something that I that I I 235 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.600 kind of have to combat where it's like, you know, 236 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.720 this stuff should be a scaffolding to to the project 237 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:15.879 of what should be an internal experience, a nosis. 238 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:16.639 Somebody asked me. 239 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.120 I spoke at the Sacred Space between the World's Conference 240 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.720 yesterday in Maryland, and I gave a whole thing on theorgy, right, 241 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:25.080 but magic and myth in it. And I got a 242 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.360 question that was as a valid question. It's like, would 243 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:32.320 you consider theurgy mystical? I said no, because it's ceremonial, 244 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.600 But theorgy should make you a mystic because the experiences 245 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:40.480 that we are having are here in the in the 246 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.759 eye of the soul, you know, type of thing, and 247 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:46.039 again in the active imagination that's being seized by the 248 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.679 divine and divinized. 249 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.679 This is a big, big thing. When we say catharsis right. 250 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.720 Purification, A lot of people think it's it's this moral 251 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:55.360 things like. 252 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.399 My soul feels pure, I don't feel like any you know. 253 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.799 It's purification is the removal of obstructions to write view. 254 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:08.240 A lot of people think insight is the accumulation of 255 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:13.039 information in reality. To PD's point, the top of that 256 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:18.960 mountain is you divesting yourself of things that you that 257 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:24.359 you accumulated from that perspective, and so insight is clarity. 258 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.839 It's not, you know, it's not about how much of 259 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:31.359 this stuff you can pack into your brain if you're 260 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.119 gonna like put the cart before the horse, you know. 261 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.799 So it's every all this stuff has to remain a 262 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:40.039 scaffolding for us to approach and talk about. And this 263 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:42.759 is very big in the Platonic Dialogue, particularly in the 264 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:47.599 time Aus. When the chief interlocutor of that dialogue, Timius, 265 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.680 is about to start talking about time and eternity, that's 266 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:57.720 how he starts his discussion of cosmogony. He distinguishes, Okay, 267 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:02.359 there's an eternal component that the demiurge some for some 268 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:08.079 reason looks at and sees perfection in eternity and decides 269 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:10.279 to make a copy of it. And that copy he 270 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.440 calls the moving image of Eternity. And it's based on 271 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:17.640 space and therefore time. And if you notice, there's a 272 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.400 threefold nature to it, right, And this might be a 273 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:22.640 little lesoteric for people, but I'm assuming if you're if 274 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.960 you're into me and what PD do, you're kind of. 275 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:25.880 Familiar with this stuff. 276 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:28.279 He takes the circuit of the same in the circuit 277 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.279 of the different comprised of this kind of even an 278 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:37.480 odd quality. They're two dimensional, the circles two dimensional. Now 279 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.440 how do you create three dimensions from two dimensional figures? 280 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.119 Insert them into each other, and now you've created a sphere. 281 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:50.920 You've created three dimensions beginning middle an end. That is, 282 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.720 he's creating the paradigm of time. Right, Because then he says, 283 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.880 this isn't the cosmos. This is the blueprint of the cosmos, right, 284 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:03.079 time cyclical nature? But what time ason talking about all this? 285 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.880 He says, listen, there's really no way that we're going 286 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:09.920 to be able to actually put this shit into words. 287 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.039 So I'm going to do my best to talk about 288 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:18.599 it mythopoetically, I like to say, rather than mythologically, because there's. 289 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:19.640 A stigma to that. 290 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.319 Mythopoetically we we only have recourse to mythology to really 291 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.799 really show this to us. And as Socrates says, I think, 292 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:30.519 I think at the end of the myth of Er 293 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.599 in book ten, he does a brief digression where he says, 294 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.279 I if the myth had convinced us, it would save. 295 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:41.880 Us well with tim Ais in that cosmology. You also 296 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.440 see a very similar aspect in Zoraster in regard to 297 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.920 the beginning, the middle, and the end and bringing about 298 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.960 the end Time's philosophy through Judaism into modern Christianity and is. 299 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:59.039 Law and these these these the necessity of these myths, 300 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:06.279 Like I said, it's what allows us to discuss this. 301 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.039 Our minds need a picture, it needs something to hang 302 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:18.279 on to. Without that, what we're left with is what's 303 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:23.279 called apo faticism, apophatic mysticism, which is is a mysticism 304 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:26.599 of negation. Anything we say about the divine is wrong 305 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:31.119 because it's limiting it to that thing. Anything we could 306 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:37.640 possibly say. So we deconstruct our picture of the transcendent 307 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.400 step by step until we face what Deonysius the Areopagit 308 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:47.480 called the bright darkness, you know. But he doesn't leave 309 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:52.359 us with that. He goes on to say, but we 310 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:57.000 need cataphatic mysticism and cataphatic meaning to bring it down, 311 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:03.000 to bring that high, lofty transcended something down into something 312 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.240 we can discuss and talk about, like a crucifix or 313 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:10.160 a tree of life, you know, something that can give 314 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.599 us a picture, because the human mind needs a picture 315 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:19.599 to hang onto. Even if that picture is completely superfluous, fallacious, 316 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.440 it'll never do justice to what we're talking about. But 317 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.880 without that picture, without that myth, there's nothing to talk about, 318 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.960 you know. And then you fall into that that zen 319 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.519 that zen trap. And you know, a zen master they're 320 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.960 fine in that trap. But trying to take a novice 321 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.720 into that territory without something like a cone or something 322 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:51.759 they can hold onto, h it's an insurmountable gap. 323 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:53.440 Yeah. 324 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:57.079 So the myths, I agree with you. It's they're essential, 325 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:04.599 but really cannot get us there. But if anything's going 326 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.519 to they will. 327 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:07.400 Yeah, that's it. 328 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.480 Yeah, that's that's a good way to put it. If 329 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.440 anything can I get us there, that will. My myths 330 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:16.640 will or because it's it's really I kind of characterize 331 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.759 it as a symbolic vocabulary. You know, that's almost like algebraic. 332 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.480 It's trying to break right, like the Pythagorean theorem. You're 333 00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.759 taking two knowns to find an unknown. And that's that's 334 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.519 we know these images, We understand these relationships between a 335 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.640 hawk and the sun, you know, Horus and raw and 336 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.799 so on and so forth, and we're using two known 337 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.519 things to find an unknown. The one thing I would 338 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:43.440 recommend people who are interested in studying Plato first start 339 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.599 with the first Alcibiety's and you, I would say, move 340 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:53.319 through the twelve dialogues of the Iamblikian curriculum. 341 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.920 But in editing those right now, so maybe in six 342 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:58.400 months I'll have it published. 343 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.400 That's incredible, that's incredible. 344 00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.400 And I would say when you when you do dive 345 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:07.400 into these dialogues, keep this mythopoetic structure in mind. There's 346 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.960 a lot that you will extract from the for instance, 347 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.599 in the cratalysts, right the sort of prologue to the 348 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:19.039 epistemological tetrad. For anybody who's caught up on that term, 349 00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.440 it's just you know, epistemology is what can and cannot 350 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:23.000 be known? 351 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.759 Why or why not? 352 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.480 And and there's a series of dialogues where it's it's 353 00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:32.440 it becomes very mercurial. Now in the Cratalysts, he's talking 354 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.359 about the suitability of names and things of the person 355 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.119 that Socrates is talking to. His name is Hermogeny's right, 356 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.440 her born of Hermes, right. 357 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:44.559 So it's there's little there's. 358 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.079 Tons of stuff like that all over the dialogues. There's 359 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:52.799 completely saturated with little things like that, little tells, little layers, 360 00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:56.039 little tiny things. I mean, you look at there's the 361 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.200 there's the divided line. There's the allegory of the cave. 362 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:02.799 There's the myth of er, there's the myth of the 363 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:06.440 afterlife in in in Fato uh. You know, there's that 364 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:13.359 cosmogon or cosmological uh, a scent caravan of the feedris 365 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.279 up in the the the celestial vault. He's constantly using myths, 366 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.200 he's constantly creating myths. So it's if you look at 367 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:24.839 those dialogues like that, I think that you're going to 368 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:28.160 extract much more. And like what was ancient Greece famous 369 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:34.880 for mythology, you know, Orpheus, even pythography, Pythagoras or Pythagoras 370 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.799 is quote unquote teacher, especially Pherisiites, they were mythographers. If 371 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.759 you look at the Dervani Papyrus, which is the oldest 372 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:48.519 actual primary source in Europe in terms of that literature, 373 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.720 it's the oldest document. It's it appears to be this 374 00:24:52.920 --> 00:25:01.119 pedagogical commentary on philosophically and ontologically interpreting mythology through through 375 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:05.599 the lens of Orpheus. So so this was kind of 376 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.440 like what ped was saying before they would have known 377 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.279 this stuff, especially people in the academy. And the final 378 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:13.079 point I want to put on that and I'm interested 379 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:15.759 to say what what Pedia has to say about this. 380 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.160 I've had a couple of confirmations from others that I 381 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.200 really really respect. But when I started taking I take 382 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.039 students through this this curriculum, we do the the the 383 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:30.440 Eamblikian curriculum plus porphyrish Isago gay uh, the organ On 384 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.640 of Aristotlin. Of course the Republic. You can't not do 385 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:37.240 the Republic. And then from there we move into we 386 00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:42.160 go into uh like uh uh introductions to arithmetic, start 387 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.960 getting into the quadrivium sort of thing like Nicomachus Theano Smyrna. 388 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.319 All these guys. 389 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.119 But then you get into the geometric stuff. Okay, the 390 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.559 geometry and what was over you know, the fabled uh 391 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.839 inscription over the gate to Platonic Academy. Let no one 392 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.200 enter here who is ignorant of geometry. And I always 393 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.519 wondered why that was the case, And I said, Okay, 394 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:09.079 the divided line is geometric. There's a whole way to 395 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:13.880 geometrically kind of recreate that line and show the golden ratio. 396 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.279 You've got things like the moving image of Eternity and 397 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:20.279 the time. It's very geometric, the geometric proof in the Mino. 398 00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:25.440 But here's the interesting thing. When you begin to actually 399 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:32.279 practice geometry. I use starting out, I use Lawlor, not Euclid, 400 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.599 because Euclid is tough for people. 401 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:37.640