WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:02.839 Hudson River Radio dot Com. 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.440 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:10.359 My goodness, be Frank. We're the only way to be 4 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:16.920 is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. We're 5 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:19.920 the only way to be, is Frank. I'm your host, 6 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.519 Frank Leborno, and I'd like to thank you for joining 7 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:26.480 us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, 8 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.440 where no conversation is out of bounds and all points 9 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:31.879 of view are welcome. We go live to tape and 10 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:33.799 I always give you the date so you have some 11 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.280 relevance and context to our conversation. It is the sixteenth 12 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:41.679 of October, with three weeks, by the way left to 13 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.799 the biggest election, certainly in my lifetime, which is a 14 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.399 fifty year plus cycle, so it's very important. It brings 15 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:51.840 us to our topic today. Fascism, a term that for 16 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.840 many Americans conjures images the Greatest generation storing the beaches 17 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.039 at Normandy, we're tearing down a Nazi flag in Berlin 18 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.880 during World War Two. It was seen as a great 19 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:05.400 evil then that had to be destroyed, and America rose 20 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:09.879 to the task of doing just that. But despite those images, 21 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:15.120 fascism was not destroyed In nineteen forty five. It has 22 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:18.920 had waves of reappearances in the many years since, not 23 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:21.280 only in Europe, but here in the US as well, 24 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.840 And in fact, many believe that despite its horrific reputation 25 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.480 to most, it has experienced a global resurgence. Yes here 26 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.799 in America too. It is certainly a word that in 27 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:38.480 this torret election cycle has been used with alarming frequency. 28 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.359 But do we really know the true meaning of the word, 29 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:45.480 its origins, its core principles, and perhaps most importantly, the 30 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:49.920 implications for us should have replaced democracy and become the 31 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:54.359 ruling principle that guides our government. Once again, we have 32 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:57.159 a great guest to enlighten us with some intelligent conversation 33 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:01.120 on this most important topic. He is a musician, author, critic, 34 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.840 full professor of Media Studies at Fordham Universe, New York, 35 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.560 My colleague and a frequent contributor to Being Frank. That's 36 00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:11.080 why I call him the renaissance Man. Always takes me 37 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:14.080 at least two or three minutes to introduce him. But again, 38 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.479 it's my pleasure to welcome doctor Paul Levinson. Paul, thank 39 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:18.479 you for joining us. 40 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.000 Well great to be here with you. I could listen 41 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.280 to your introductions of me all. 42 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:29.039 Day, Well, they usually take all day because steeps like 43 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:33.240 I wind up stumbling over them quite a bit. But 44 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.479 as we well know, that's kind of what being frank 45 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:37.199 is really. 46 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:38.800 All about, right, so absolutely. 47 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.639 Anyway, let's let's get to the task at hand, which 48 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:44.759 is to talk a little bit about fascistm It's a word. 49 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:46.919 We hear it all the time. Most of us are 50 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.840 familiar with the black and black and white footage, et 51 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:55.120 cetera associated with it, But what does it really mean? 52 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:58.360 First of all, what's the root of the world? Where 53 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:02.360 exactly does it come from? I know it's a Latin thing, 54 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:06.280 so it has a certain direct meaning. Let's talk about 55 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:06.919 that first. 56 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:12.759 Well, yeah, the Italian word fascismo, which is fascism just 57 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:17.599 take away the o, means bundle of sticks, and what 58 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:24.199 that in turn means is power through unity, because the 59 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.439 bundle of sticks is stronger than any of the single 60 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:34.159 sticks on their own. And obviously the Italian comes from 61 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:39.120 the Latin. The Latin comes from the ancient Romans, and 62 00:03:39.479 --> 00:03:43.120 for them, the various words that had fascists in it 63 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:48.240 also meant bundle of roots around an axe. 64 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:53.000 So you see that symbol often in ancient Roman depictions 65 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.719 behind a throne or something, there's this tide bundle of 66 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.840 sticks reads in an axe head. I mean, I've seen it, 67 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.280 so I'm acknowledging, please explain for please. 68 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.479 Yeah. Well, and that's exactly the same thing. It's even 69 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.680 more vivid, more direct than just a bundle of sticks, 70 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.639 because you have the bundle of roots. Once again, many 71 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:21.759 roots unity bonded together. But whether they bonded together with 72 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.759 an axe, something that you can cut something with, chop 73 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:30.319 down a tree, or even worse, kill an enemy. And 74 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:37.680 there you get into one of the definitive aspects of fascism, 75 00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:42.000 which it's much much more than an opinion. It's an 76 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:46.759 opinion that says, if you disagree with me and I 77 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.519 can't convince you through logic, and we can talk a 78 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:53.199 little bit about what the logic of fascism is, I 79 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:58.360 am going to impose my view on you. And if 80 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:01.920 you still don't like that, I'm liable to arrest you. 81 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:05.079 And you know, you don't have to talk about Mussolini 82 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.759 and Hitler. You can talk about Putin right now in Russia. 83 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:14.040 It's the classic fascist state. And what does Putin do 84 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.120 with people who disagree with them? Well, you have to 85 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.879 happen to be near a balcony. Maybe somebody comes up 86 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.240 from behind them and throws them off the balcony. Or 87 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:27.079 if you're arrested and thrown in gel, you're liable never 88 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:30.240 to get out of that gel. You can get mysteriously 89 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.879 ill just as you're about to be released and die. 90 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:40.240 So this combination of power through unity, which in itself 91 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:42.319 is you know, not an objectionable. 92 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:44.600 I wanted to make that point. You know there's a 93 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.519 perversion there. There's unity is strength from one many. We 94 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:55.480 use it ourselves. Our connection to Roman mythology and government 95 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.959 is astounding. You know, the idea that if you take 96 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:01.360 a single read or root it, you can break it 97 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.759 over your knee, bundle them together and you can't do it. 98 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.079 But then you throw the axe head in and you 99 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.360 get kind of this perversion of something that it's mostly good. 100 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:11.560 But maybe we have to look a little further. 101 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:17.759 Well, the key difference between fascism and democracy is that 102 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:23.680 democracy recognizes that there is a diversity of opinions. So 103 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:28.240 what do you do. You argue those opinions out verbally, 104 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:34.519 you pass laws that embody those opinions. Maybe a Supreme 105 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:39.480 court will say no, that's not a justifiable law, so 106 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:44.439 we're going to find this unconstitutional. All of those are 107 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:49.959 expressions of differences of opinion, but they are worked out 108 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.959 in a non violent way. The thing about fascism is 109 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.839 the fascists can't tolerate any difference of opinion. And again, 110 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.720 there is a logic in fascism. They try to explain 111 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:09.480 why their point of view is good. But in the end, 112 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:15.839 if you don't accept that argument, the argument is not 113 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:22.160 settled through any court. It's not settled through any logical 114 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:25.519 group that's going to look at it and evaluate. It's 115 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:30.199 settled by violence. And by the way, the other important 116 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:36.120 point is all too often what fascists do is they 117 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:42.040 have a disregard for objective truths. They just make things up. 118 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.519 And here we get into if you look at what 119 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.959 the Institute for Propaganda Analysis. 120 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.000 To talk about. 121 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:55.839 Yeah, you know, they in all kinds of ways simple 122 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:01.199 solutions to complex problems. There's an economic problem in Germany. 123 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:07.040 Whose fault is it, Well, it's these Jews and other 124 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:12.680 non Christian people who have invaded our country, invaded our 125 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.879 body politic, are poisoning the pure blood of Germans. 126 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:20.920 And I see where we're going with this and I 127 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:23.800 want to get there because I think it's important that 128 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:26.639 we get there. It's part of our conversation. But bring 129 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:28.879 because you also you mentioned so, I think it's timely 130 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.560 now to jump in and say you mentioned two countries 131 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.919 in particular that we associate most with fascism, certainly in 132 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.360 our lifetime, even though it was before us, it's within 133 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:42.120 our known history. Sometimes for younger people we both teach 134 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.840 it Fordham and it's amazing, like you've heard of World 135 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.360 War two? Right, and they say, yeah, we've heard of it. Anyway, 136 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:53.919 With that being said, what was And I think, because 137 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.159 we can draw the parallels, what was ripe within those 138 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.360 countries at that time where fascism found such a purchase, 139 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:04.679 where it became part of the national psyche. Can you 140 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:08.039 explain what was going on them then and particularly in 141 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.320 those places that allowed it to flourish, and on their 142 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:14.759 parallels that you were obviously starting to make today. Please 143 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:15.480 continue with that. 144 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:21.320 Sure, well, Italy had a bushel of grievances as the 145 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:26.000 twentieth century developed. In the first place, it was a 146 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.159 very recently formed country. You know, Rome is ancient, but 147 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.919 Italy is a country is relatively recent, much younger than France, 148 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.960 and much younger than England and Germany as well, was 149 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:44.759 relatively recent. It was Prussia, you know, in the late 150 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.919 eighteen hundreds, going into the nineteen hundreds, etc. You know, 151 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:53.919 Bismarck was the Prime Minister of Prussia in the eighteen 152 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.879 seventies and eighties. So we take for granted the age 153 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.879 of country trees, because you know, we go back to 154 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:06.639 the you know, late seventeen seventies. England goes back much 155 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:10.720 much further, France goes back much much further. But some 156 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:15.679 of these European countries, in particular Italy and Germany, were 157 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.600 much more recent and so in effect, and maybe you know, 158 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.039 this is too nice a word for them, they were 159 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:29.879 children which hadn't found their way yet. And Italy also 160 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.559 had the grievance of it. They obviously knew that they 161 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.559 came from ancient Rome, and so it was always a 162 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:42.840 grievance of anyone really living in Italy ever since Rome fell. 163 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.679 You know, why can't we get back up there. We 164 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.480 once ruled the world. We once had this empire that 165 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.519 encompassed you know, northern Africa, a lot of Europe, et cetera, 166 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.799 et cetera. You know, surely we did that in the past. 167 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.879 Why can't we do that now great again? 168 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.399 It might if I might there you go, Okay. 169 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:08.279 That's exactly right, make Italy great again. And Germany had 170 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:12.279 its own huge chip on its shoulder. Germany was beaten 171 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:16.240 in World War One. You know, they put up a 172 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.879 pretty good battle. I once spoke, you know, to a 173 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.919 German guy who actually was an American citizen, but he 174 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:30.200 once explained to me that people living in Germany, you know, 175 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:35.200 in the twenties and thirties, thought that Germany was this 176 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:42.080 incredibly powerful country with intelligent people. But they lost World 177 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.120 War One because they had poor allies. They got stuck 178 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:51.120 with countries that weren't the strongest. And even in World 179 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.480 War Two, I mean, Japan put up a good battle, 180 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:58.519 but Italy wasn't exactly a major power. So what led 181 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:04.200 though to Nazis getting such a stronghold in Germany is, first, 182 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:08.960 the Germans did not have that much experience in democracy. 183 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.440 Up until the nineteenth the end of World War One, 184 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.080 Germany was a monarchy. It was a somewhat constitutional monarchy, 185 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:26.039 not as constitutional monarchy as England was. And when Germany 186 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:29.879 was beaten in World War One, the Germans tried to 187 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:34.480 create a democracy, the Weimar Republic, and you know, they 188 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.679 had a you know, an effective bill of rights, but 189 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.799 the German people had no experience in that. And so 190 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:47.879 when you think about the worldwide depression that was beginning 191 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.440 to erupt at the end of the nineteen twenties in 192 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.759 the early nineteen thirties, that just added to the aggravation 193 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.679 of a lot of Germans feeling that they weren't getting 194 00:12:58.720 --> 00:12:59.799 a fair shake. 195 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.519 Felt like they really got and they probably did get 196 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:05.759 really screwed with many of the so called peace treaties 197 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:10.240 after World War One. Obviously to the winner belong to spoils, 198 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:14.279 and they took them. So Germany was stinging from that 199 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.120 as well too. We talk about a national identity because 200 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.679 I know Hitler used that, and I know you're going 201 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.600 to bring to and the propagandas like, I know what 202 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.240 it's like to be degraded. I was a soldier. I 203 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.039 fought for this country, so please continue. 204 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.879 Yeah, but here again, there's a fundamental illogic that runs 205 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:39.240 through all of fascism, and Adolf Hitler is a tragically 206 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:46.519 excellent example of that. Because the Nazi ideology was preaching 207 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:53.559 the beauty of arians, blue eyed, blonde haired people. Adolf 208 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:57.159 Hitler didn't look anything like that, right, Hitler. 209 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:01.399 Short, dark air dark, exactly right. 210 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.320 So you know, right there you can see that there 211 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:10.240 was an underlying illogic, lack of logic. And this goes 212 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:16.240 right into the brilliant propaganda that Joseph Goebbels Adolf Hitler's 213 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:21.679 Minister of Propaganda and Popular Enlightenment. I'm not being sarcastic. 214 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.759 That was his title. So at least they were honest 215 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.720 about what the man did you know? He was a 216 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:32.360 minister of propaganda, a very intelligent guy. By the way, 217 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:36.080 a PhD just goes to show you because you have 218 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.879 a PhD doesn't mean you're going to be a good person. 219 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:42.159 And this is, by the way, a mistake to just 220 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.759 briefly jump back here to the United States. One of 221 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.200 the great dangers in this country, I think, is when 222 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:57.360 Trump says crazy, stupid, dumb things that are obviously ridiculous, 223 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.200 that doesn't mean that the people who are advising him 224 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.919 believe that. And it's always a very bad mistake to 225 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:10.919 underestimate your opponents. And so what Hitler was able to 226 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:16.919 do with Joseph Goebels really running the propaganda show was 227 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:24.159 basically create a web of lies. So again simple solution 228 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.679 to a complex problem. The German economy is suffering, not 229 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:36.000 because there's a worldwide depression, not because maybe Germany could 230 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.440 have done better things to improve the economy, but because 231 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:47.879 there were non German people in Germany who were literally, 232 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.320 in the view of the Nazis, infecting Germany and therefore 233 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:58.159 preventing Germany from reaching its true height. And this simple 234 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:02.440 solution for a complex problem is a great thing for 235 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.879 a propagandist and a fascist propagandist to use. But there 236 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:08.919 are other aspects of that as well, and we can 237 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.039 talk about them as well. One of the best examples 238 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:18.879 is appeal to authority. Why should you do something because 239 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:23.480 I'm an authority and I know what's best. Your logic 240 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.679 doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you have evidence and 241 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.799 arguments that contradict what I'm saying. I'm at the top here, 242 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:35.399 I know what's best for you, and you know it 243 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.519 just goes on and on. 244 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.759 Paul, if I might jump in, that's a select few 245 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:42.360 at the top, and you think of it as a pyramid, 246 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:45.279 and you look at it in the particular case of Germany, 247 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.559 But it's typical of many. There's usually a strong man, 248 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.080 you could say, a strong person, but let's face it, 249 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:54.159 throughout history it's mostly been strong men at the top, 250 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:56.799 with others willing to support him as long as they 251 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.480 get their share at the pie of the pie. But 252 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.879 the people at the bottom get so little of the pie. 253 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.519 How do they at the top manage to to convince 254 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.759 those at the bottom of the pyramid to live on 255 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.000 the crumbs? The so called trickle down? One of the 256 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.200 key things is and you've mentioned they I'd like to 257 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.440 give you to get into detail, and the use of 258 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.799 propaganda to convince people that they're doing things in the 259 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.039 people's bench's best interest when that's the furthest thing from 260 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.240 the truth, and everybody else can see it except for 261 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:28.640 those who buy the line. 262 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.240 That's a great question, and again it applies to the 263 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.599 United States. I've often asked myself, why would anyone other 264 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:41.559 than a millionaire ever vote for a Republican in any situation? 265 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.920 And yet the Republicans, whether we like it or not, 266 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.279 I mean, they certainly get forty six, forty seven, forty 267 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.720 eight percent of the vote in many, many states and 268 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.400 in many many elections, and they get those votes from 269 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.960 people who make you and me seem like millionaire, And 270 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:07.000 what are the Republicans doing that makes them these poor 271 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.240 people ever even think of voting for a Republican. So 272 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.599 there was a psychologist, a student of Sigmund Freud, by 273 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:19.200 the name of Eric from f R m M. He 274 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.480 wrote a great book in nineteen forty five called Escape 275 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:26.440 from Freedom. And the question that he asked in the 276 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:33.519 book is why indeed did the German populace support this 277 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:39.400 Nazi ideology, this idea that you must respect and follow 278 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:44.640 what the leader defeure is telling you, this appeal to authority, 279 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.839 And what from I think very stuteley realized is that 280 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:54.440 the appeal to authority in politics basically is drawing on 281 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:58.960 the experience that every human being had as a child, 282 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:04.599 where you followed what your parents said. And when you 283 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.920 are dealing when you are a parent, and let's say 284 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.079 you're dealing with a two three year old child, you 285 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:17.119 indeed very often use appeal to authority, and you even 286 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.880 sometimes use force to get the two or three year 287 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:25.960 old to do something that's not dangerous. For example, I 288 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.160 often use the example if you're crossing the street with 289 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.319 let's say a three year old in New York City. 290 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.440 You and you say we have to wait until the 291 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.400 light change is green, and you have to hold my hand, 292 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.440 and the little kid says, I don't want to hold 293 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:43.720 your hand. I want to cross the street when it's red. 294 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.240 You might say, listen, that's very dangerous. You know cars 295 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:49.920 are coming. But you're not going to have too lengthy 296 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.799 a discussion with this, you know, sweet little kid obviously 297 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:58.119 a smart kid who has an opinion. He or she 298 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.720 wants to cross the street even though it's a red light, 299 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.920 even though it's very dangerous. So very quickly you're going 300 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.680 to say, you know what, you're not going to cross 301 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.240 the street now, you're going to hold my hand because 302 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:13.000 I'm your father have to do. 303 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.680 We've all heard that right the way up, because I said, so, 304 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.839 that's right. So it's an extrapolation of that. 305 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.440 Really, it is an extrapolation. And that's why you know, 306 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.720 from was a good psychologist, and you know, Freud himself, 307 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.759 you know, realized that what people do in adulthood is 308 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:34.079 based on the experiences they went through in childhood. And 309 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.119 everyone went through this experience, you know, anyone who had 310 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:40.960 who had parents who are taking care of them now obviously. 311 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.759 I mean, this is a fascinating thing in and of itself, 312 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.319 even independent of fascism. As children grow up and they 313 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:55.240 become teenagers, unfortunately, parents often continue exercising that appeal to authority, 314 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.200 but it no longer works. Are a twelve thirteen fourteen 315 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.279 year old, because when a toddler, you know, is twelve 316 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.759 thirteen fourteen, you know they're not little kids anymore. You 317 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:13.359 know they have a full capacity for adult reasoning, and 318 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.799 they might well disagree with their parents and want to 319 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.720 do what they want to do. And in fact, as 320 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.799 we become adults, no one wants to be told what 321 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.160 to do by an authority. We want to make decisions 322 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:32.400 for ourselves. So in a democracy there are limits to 323 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.200 what authorities can do. So here in the United States 324 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.720 doesn't work perfectly all the time. If an authority does 325 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.839 something wrong to us, let's say a cop. I'll give 326 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.880 you a true story. I'm driving through Westchester years ago 327 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:50.359 with my daughter. I was picking up from a friend's house, 328 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.400 and I don't know what I did wrong. Like a 329 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.759 cop basically pulls us over. But I make the mistake 330 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.359 of saying to the officer, can I help you? Because 331 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:00.880 I was in a bear mood I didn't want to 332 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.119 be pulled over, and said, oh yeah, i'll help you. 333 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.240 You know what, I'm going to write you a ticket 334 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.599 for going through that stop sign. So I said, what 335 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.559 stop sign? There's no stop sign there. He said, well 336 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.599 I think there is, and he writes a ticket that 337 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:17.960 went through a stop sign, pulls away. I go to 338 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.000 court a month later and the cop doesn't even show up. 339 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.880 The judge throws the case out. But I'm aggravating because 340 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.920 I missed my favorite television show, Eliots that was on 341 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.559 at that time because that cop gave me a ticket. 342 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:38.079 But that's an example of in a democracy, you don't 343 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.920 have to accept what an authority is saying you have 344 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:46.079 to do. You can protest you you know, if it's 345 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.920 a civil matter, you can go to court. You can sue. 346 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.680 If you are doing business with some kind of rich 347 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.880 company and they're not providing what they say they're going 348 00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:59.440 to provide, but they're taking you money, you don't have 349 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.920 to take it from that authority. You can go to 350 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:06.359 court and sue them. So that is a key difference 351 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.119 right there. In a fascist state, there might be a 352 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:14.359 court system, but it's all rigged to support whatever the 353 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.640 authority says. 354 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.000 Well, you know that brings me to and you'll forgive 355 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:22.960 the analogy, but you know the fashion it's almost like 356 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.960 a virus. You know, a virus attacks as a host, 357 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.400 but generally usually it kills the host and kills itself. So, 358 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.359 if you'll follow me, my thinking is, you know, often 359 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.839 fascism hides under the guide of patriotism. Okay, so here 360 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:42.599 in this country we have patriots who are all about freedom. 361 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.519 We are so willing to give away their freedom to 362 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:49.200 a fascist type control to just do something because it 363 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:54.039 tells somebody tells them. I don't understand the disconnect where 364 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:57.640 they're not acting in their own self best interest. You know, 365 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.200 I want one of my fears going forward, I said, 366 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:02.240 you know, if if you followed my social poets, and 367 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.920 I'm not shy that way, I'm very outspoken, and I 368 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.759 literally fear that if things go a certain way, we're 369 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.799 gonna talk about more details, kind of stepping in around it. 370 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:17.240 But there is certainly the suggestion that we are leaning 371 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.119 more towards fascism than we ever have, certainly in my lifetime, 372 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.839 and that frightens me because I believe that even this show, 373 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:28.079 this program could go away because we've been critical. If 374 00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:31.400 we got critical of the government, well we're shut off. 375 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:35.720 I don't know how anyone, any red blooded American, if 376 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:40.839 you win, would accept that. Yet people who are fascists 377 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:44.319 gladly do so, and are willing to beat and control 378 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.440 and kill others who are not talk to that. It's 379 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:48.279 crazy to me. 380 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.480 Well it is crazy. And I think again, what the 381 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:57.400 Nazis did is they fed on the discontent of the 382 00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:03.279 German people after World War WI. And what Mussolini did 383 00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:10.119 in Italy was, as I said, basically exploited the discontent 384 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:15.640 that the average Italian citizens felt after World War One. 385 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:19.720 And here in the United States there are a lot 386 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:24.599 of discontented people. And if you look at the people, 387 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:29.799 you know, at Trump rallies, you know, obviously there are 388 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:34.079 all kinds of people. You know. Again, if forty eight 389 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:39.000 percent of the population in an election of voting for him, 390 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.440 it's a mistake to say it's just one kind of person. 391 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:49.240 But by and large, the core of Trump's supporters are 392 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.799 Americans who feel they have not been given a fair deal. 393 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:59.400 And when somebody like Trump comes along and says I 394 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.960 have the solution to it, you know, and this is 395 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.519 how Trump talks about everything. You've probably heard him talk. 396 00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:10.720 You know, when I'm elected president, even before I take office, 397 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:15.000 I'm going to end the Russian Ukrainian War, and while 398 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.039 we're at it, i'll make peace in Israel. And you know, 399 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:21.599 I'll take care of all these things for you, and 400 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:24.359 you won't have to worry about North Korea anymore because 401 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.559