Speaker 1: Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly flapping
Speaker 1: his wing big down in the forest.
Speaker 2: Man, it gonna cause the tree fall, letting five thousand
Speaker 2: miles away.
Speaker 1: Man, nobody seen, nobody else. See, you don't need to
Speaker 1: know many pluck you a little story and you got
Speaker 1: back to fle like that. That's the win, Man blackly
Speaker 1: dag on the panel. Man, Man, you don't matter.
Speaker 2: Man all right, Thomas, welcome back to Jay burd and
Speaker 2: show how you doing.
Speaker 1: Man doing very well? Thanks for hosting me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Man, I'm glad to have you back on. It's
Speaker 2: been a little while since you and I spoke on air.
Speaker 2: Now we got to hang out at uh the Secret
Speaker 2: O t C Bunker. Yeah, a good time.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: But we're back to it. And this is a big one.
Speaker 2: You know. This is one that I'll be it maybe
Speaker 2: is a little more obscure here in America, but is
Speaker 2: top of the line if we're talking about this issue,
Speaker 2: particularly in the UK. So I'll let you introduce at Thomas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm still getting over being ill. So just
Speaker 1: forgive my boys for faith failing me. Yeah. There's something
Speaker 1: that Jimmy Saville. It's it's not presented in any thorough
Speaker 1: capacity and media and such that it is discussed. It
Speaker 1: is presented as a sort of laundry list of depravity
Speaker 1: of this famous guy who became who was a pedophile,
Speaker 1: who's hiding in plain sight. That that's not really what
Speaker 1: we're talking about. I mean, yeah, Jimmy Savile was. He
Speaker 1: was a voracious rapist of both boys, girls, men and women.
Speaker 1: The claim is that some BBC presenter, and this sentiment
Speaker 1: was echoed in the Irish Times, suggested that there was
Speaker 1: you know, one off instances of several assaulting males. I
Speaker 1: guarantee he assaulted as many boys as he did girls.
Speaker 1: It's just that men are are shamed to report that
Speaker 1: kind of thing for obvious reasons. You know, he didn't discriminate.
Speaker 1: He was a voracious predator literally until the day he died.
Speaker 1: But and there was a there was a biopic made
Speaker 1: of him, I think called a British horror story like it.
Speaker 1: It was featured on one of the streaming sites here
Speaker 1: in America or streaming services, and I watched it and
Speaker 1: the guy who played several I thought, nailed it. And
Speaker 1: to the credit of the filmmakers, it got into several's
Speaker 1: necrophilia he was. He was literally an avid necrophilia too.
Speaker 1: That was a major aspect of his depravity and his
Speaker 1: ritualistic transgressions. But where they failed is they basically presented
Speaker 1: Savo as this man with a bizarre upbringing who was
Speaker 1: told who was an out of control sexual deviant, and
Speaker 1: they basically that was it, and they cast his his
Speaker 1: strange fixation on charity as him trying to atone for
Speaker 1: these depravities. That's that sort of deliberately obscure, is what
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, And what really jumped out to
Speaker 1: me when the man died, you know, he passed away
Speaker 1: in a twenty eleven Savo was born on Halloween in
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty six, and he'd make a big deal about that, saying,
Speaker 1: claiming indebtorous, that he was a warlock and that he
Speaker 1: was some sort of a cult addict or a sort
Speaker 1: of dark version of Merlin, some sort of liminal figure.
Speaker 1: And he died on October twenty ninth, twenty eleven. It
Speaker 1: was reported that when he was found in his apartment,
Speaker 1: he was lying in bed, grinning and the fingers on
Speaker 1: both of his hands were crossed, and his funeral was
Speaker 1: excessive by any metric and it was almost as if
Speaker 1: a sitting president or prime minister had died, or some
Speaker 1: beloved royal had died. It was totally bizarre. You know.
Speaker 1: Spokes in for for then Prince Charles, you know, uh
Speaker 1: issued this kind of maudlin and and glazing eulogy, you know,
Speaker 1: and and Charles himself said that Sabel was a great
Speaker 1: mentor of his and a great Englishman and just a
Speaker 1: great man. And this funeral went on for days. He
Speaker 1: was laid the rest in a gold coffin, this huge
Speaker 1: gold coffin, and it was driven to this hotel the
Speaker 1: city center of Leeds that was Saville's hometown. Okay, it
Speaker 1: was this, this huge gold coffin. It was driven to
Speaker 1: this hotel in the Leeds city center and then it
Speaker 1: was placed in the foyer and almost looked like this altar.
Speaker 1: And uh it was draped in this blue velvet shroud
Speaker 1: and it dorned with a cascade of white roses. There
Speaker 1: was a Royal Marine Honor Guard that was carrying the
Speaker 1: coffin around when it was transported and ultimately when it
Speaker 1: was interred. But there there was this endless procession of
Speaker 1: people coming by, you know, it was almost like I
Speaker 1: remember when I was a kid, when I uh, when
Speaker 1: Sharon Anko died and he was the last he was
Speaker 1: the last man interred in the Kremlin mausoleum, and there
Speaker 1: was this I remember they showed clips of it on
Speaker 1: on the new on the news, and there was this
Speaker 1: endless procession of Russians, you know, paying their respect. It
Speaker 1: almost reminded me of that, you know, and uh as
Speaker 1: uh the confidence to the cemetery, there was this there
Speaker 1: was this huge uh tear it in you know, the
Speaker 1: site where he was buried at it took up three plots.
Speaker 1: So there was this marble headstone that was basically three
Speaker 1: headstones soldered together or whatever, you know, befitting again ahead
Speaker 1: of state or something. And he uh savel and Saville
Speaker 1: was a Catholic. I mean, I I don't believe he
Speaker 1: had a belief in God. I mean, he he definitely
Speaker 1: works up strange guys. I don't I don't believe for
Speaker 1: a minute he was a Roman Catholic in any meaningful sense.
Speaker 1: But he made a big show of going to Mass,
Speaker 1: and the Roman Catholic cathedral where he'd been baptized, was
Speaker 1: where the service was held, and the bishop of leads.
Speaker 1: A Reverend Arthur Broke performed the service and made a
Speaker 1: big deal about several's good words and in order an
Speaker 1: exemplary person he was, and the requiem mass was attended
Speaker 1: by seven one hundred people. You know, when it just
Speaker 1: went on and on and on and on and on,
Speaker 1: you know, and uh again this this went on for
Speaker 1: three days, this sort of national mourning. Some mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's strange enough as it is, okay, And then you know,
Speaker 1: just weeks after Savile was buried, after this almost deranged
Speaker 1: imperial mourning for this man, all memory of him began
Speaker 1: to be ritually dismantled. You know, for the first time,
Speaker 1: it was openly reported that he'd raped dozens of women,
Speaker 1: he'd he'd assaulted dozens of little boys and girls, that
Speaker 1: he was engaged in necrophilia, that he was essentially a
Speaker 1: career criminal.
Speaker 2: He well, Thomas, if you could, I think it's relevant
Speaker 2: to mention why Savile was so prominent in British culture
Speaker 2: to begin with, sure before any of this darker information
Speaker 2: was known.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of starting from this point because it
Speaker 1: I think it's it's illustrative. I'll get into Saville's early
Speaker 1: life and that's sort of a deep dive into that Savill. Basically,
Speaker 1: he was born in Leeds. He was other War generation.
Speaker 1: But and that's Savile's family. That's that's Jimmy uh On
Speaker 1: the uh second from left, the older boy is Vince
Speaker 1: Savill and uh he Vince Saville was something of a
Speaker 1: local war hero because he was trapped in Malta during
Speaker 1: the Siege of Malta in World War Two. So he
Speaker 1: came back and ultimately he put in something like thirty
Speaker 1: years in the Royal Navy. But he was a he
Speaker 1: was an evil son of a bitch too, and he
Speaker 1: was he was feared locally and a lot of people
Speaker 1: speculate that when Savile first started managing night clubs and things,
Speaker 1: Vince was the muscle behind it. And Vince was an
Speaker 1: avid uh sex offender too. He was a rapist, cal molester,
Speaker 1: just like his little brother. But Savil was the youngest
Speaker 1: of I think, uh yeah, he had he had seven
Speaker 1: of older brothers and sisters, so he came late in
Speaker 1: life to his parents. You know, he was sort of
Speaker 1: an accidental baby. He used to quip that he was
Speaker 1: a not again child. But he didn't get conscripted into
Speaker 1: the military. He got drafted h in the labor service
Speaker 1: and sent to work in a mine. And he made
Speaker 1: a big deal about this later, kind of trying to
Speaker 1: present him self as this sort of like working class hero,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't really tell the whole story. The Saviles,
Speaker 1: UH where they weren't at all wealthy, but they didn't
Speaker 1: live in poverty. Saville's father, he was essentially an unlicensed accountant,
Speaker 1: and he made book for a local gangster, you know,
Speaker 1: and UH that was part of Saddle's ingress and into
Speaker 1: how to hustle and you know, manage people and and
Speaker 1: sort of gray market activities and things. But Saddle sort
Speaker 1: of by accident of fate and convergence of circumstances sociological
Speaker 1: and historical, you know, the UK diminished as it was
Speaker 1: after the war. Britain, UH really was at the forefront
Speaker 1: of of kind of global pop culture before there was
Speaker 1: even such a thing, okay, and before even UH, radio
Speaker 1: was the medium by which new music was exposed to
Speaker 1: people and markets were created. Dancehall culture was a real thing,
Speaker 1: like the equivalent to here would be sock hops and
Speaker 1: stuff for the fifties. But Saville was one of the
Speaker 1: first guys who was able to finagle early access to
Speaker 1: newly released records, and he was one of the first
Speaker 1: professional DJs as we think of it, okay in the UK,
Speaker 1: and he had a good eye for what was gonna pop.
Speaker 1: So he developed a heavy rep as this DJ that
Speaker 1: people wanted to see because he was always gonna spin
Speaker 1: stuff that was fresh and that you hadn't heard before,
Speaker 1: and you know that was uh, you'd be the first
Speaker 1: to hear it, you know, and he had uh there
Speaker 1: was there was always a ton of girls at the
Speaker 1: clubs he managed, and uh, they had a reputation for
Speaker 1: having liquor that wasn't watered down. And like I said,
Speaker 1: people apparently were terrified of his brother events and some
Speaker 1: events's rappies who had and so would joke about like
Speaker 1: brutalizing people and like literally torturing them if they acted
Speaker 1: up in his night clothes. And that's nothing about Saddle.
Speaker 1: Like that's why I object to this notion of you know,
Speaker 1: this man hid his real nature from us, Like, no,
Speaker 1: he didn't. He'd joke about molesting girls. There's this awful
Speaker 1: footage of him, it's literally on an episode of Top
Speaker 1: of the Pops from the seventies he's obviously got his
Speaker 1: hand down this girl's pants since he's desperately trying to
Speaker 1: like fend him off, and he's like laughing about it
Speaker 1: while he's like going through the you know, the litany
Speaker 1: of of prompts and things. You know. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody knew what this guy was about, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's what's so creepy about it, you know. And uh
Speaker 1: So when he died, like I said, it was it
Speaker 1: was like the Emperor had died or something. But then
Speaker 1: within weeks, you know, there's this equally sort of ritualistic
Speaker 1: condemnation of him, you know, in this endless reporting of
Speaker 1: his crimes, and witnesses are finally feeling safe to come forward.
Speaker 1: It's like people were terrified of this man even in death.
Speaker 1: It's like you weren't even sure if It's like he
Speaker 1: had to be dead for a few weeks before they
Speaker 1: could feel safe. And in discussing openly what he was,
Speaker 1: I can't think of a comparable phenomenon, you know, and
Speaker 1: what I've done, because this is a huge case, okay,
Speaker 1: that spans sixty years quite literally in broad strokes, I
Speaker 1: think I think that there's three major phases of Samuel
Speaker 1: Criminal acts what Saville did as he made the transition
Speaker 1: to television from radio because his dance all gig. One
Speaker 1: of the first real rock and roll stations in the
Speaker 1: UK was called Radio Luxembourg because it was based on
Speaker 1: the continent and like literally in Luxembourg and they'd play
Speaker 1: rock and roll records and Seville I mean just speaking honestly,
Speaker 1: when he was young, at least before his chain cigar
Speaker 1: smoking kind of ruined his voice, he had a really
Speaker 1: good radio voice. So being a dance all DJ, it
Speaker 1: was in demand, led to him getting a job with
Speaker 1: Radio Luxembourg, and from there he got he got a
Speaker 1: job as the MC of of this program Top of
Speaker 1: the Pops, which was kind of like a cross between
Speaker 1: American Bandstand and uh you know, uh one of those
Speaker 1: go ahead.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and not necessarily structure wise, but it's sort of
Speaker 2: a as far as I understand, sort of a pro
Speaker 2: proto MTV, where it was a huge taste maker and
Speaker 2: sort of a mark of having made it so for instance,
Speaker 2: and like I said, this was you know, bigger across
Speaker 2: the Atlantic than it was here. But if you go back,
Speaker 2: you know to all of your kind of classic you know,
Speaker 2: rock favorites. Oftentimes one of their early breakouts will be
Speaker 2: a Top of the Pops. So, for instance, there's a
Speaker 2: very famous recording of the Beatles. You know, there's some Zeppelin.
Speaker 2: Point is, as often these figures tend to do, he
Speaker 2: was in sort of a a gatekeeper role. I elude
Speaker 2: at that back to you, Thomas.
Speaker 1: Oh huge, yeah, and no, that's a good point. It
Speaker 1: was kind of like across the American bandstand and for
Speaker 1: the millennials, it was almost like total request live before
Speaker 1: there was TRL you know, and yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: huge deal. And yeah, Finn Lizzy did Top of the Pops,
Speaker 1: Iron Maiden did Top of the Pops. Everybody at the
Speaker 1: Top of the Pops slayed and yeah that's and it's uh.
Speaker 1: But as he made the transition, you know, to television,
Speaker 1: he became this, uh, this huge celebrity. And because he
Speaker 1: was so closely affiliated with the music industry in rock
Speaker 1: and roll, you know, he kids, especially be starstruck by him,
Speaker 1: you know, and which is understandable, you know, especially in
Speaker 1: those days. And there was the school called the Duncroft School,
Speaker 1: and this is this is bizarre, okay, but it was
Speaker 1: established as the school for troubled girls. It was kind
Speaker 1: of one part finishing school but also one part reform school.
Speaker 1: And the girls who were sent there was girls who
Speaker 1: were centered by their parents for you know, being just
Speaker 1: kind of angsty teenagers. There was girls who'd gotten caught
Speaker 1: up and in genuine crime, who had been ordered by
Speaker 1: the court. A very strange institution. But Savill simply started
Speaker 1: showing up there saying that, and he's telling the head
Speaker 1: and mistress, Oh, well, I get fan letters all the
Speaker 1: time from you know, the young ladies who attend this school,
Speaker 1: and this became one of his regular hunting grounds. He'd
Speaker 1: just show up there with a bunch of cigarettes and
Speaker 1: brand new records and cash, and he'd he load these
Speaker 1: girls into his jag or his rolls Royce and like
Speaker 1: take them off and have his weight with them, you know.
Speaker 1: And uh, but like think about this too. The alibi
Speaker 1: again is like, well, we thought Jimmy was odd, but
Speaker 1: we didn't think anything on tour it was happening. This
Speaker 1: is a fifty year old guy going to a girls'
Speaker 1: school and hang around fourteen fifteen year old girls and
Speaker 1: taking them off the premises, Like what do you think,
Speaker 1: what do you think he's doing with them, playing checkers,
Speaker 1: you know, advising them on on their career ambitions, you know.
Speaker 1: So that was kind of the first phase of his
Speaker 1: truly above board dedicated offending. What happened subsequent and this
Speaker 1: is really the most unbelievable. In nineteen eighty law enforcement
Speaker 1: had a mold taken of Saville's teeth, his bite because
Speaker 1: there was a serial killer who was known as the
Speaker 1: Yorkshire Ripper. He was convicted of killing thirteen women. His
Speaker 1: name was Peter Sutcliffe, and Saville was strongly enough suspected
Speaker 1: of being a Ripper suspect that, you know, he was
Speaker 1: actively investigated and his bike profile was compared to bite
Speaker 1: marks that were on the victims. So this man was
Speaker 1: a suspected serial killer. And yet somehow that didn't kill
Speaker 1: his career or anything. And then later when the Yorkshire
Speaker 1: Ripper was identified and apprehended, he uh Sadville started hanging
Speaker 1: around with him and saying he's a dear friend, you know,
Speaker 1: and and visiting him at the high security UH hospital
Speaker 1: for the criminally insane that he'd been committed to. I mean,
Speaker 1: think about that. That'd be like, like imagine, imagine Carson
Speaker 1: Dailey if he just started hanging around some some serial killer,
Speaker 1: I mean like that, and people have sort of acted like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's just that's just Carson being eccentric. He's odd.
Speaker 2: Imagine if famous, famous director Peter Jackson started hanging out
Speaker 2: with a guy who got out of jail for ritually
Speaker 2: killing three children.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no fair point, yeah yeah, him
Speaker 1: him becoming buddies with them, with Damien Echols, who yeah,
Speaker 1: and Tay I think again, flying him out to his
Speaker 1: home and things. But yeah, I mean a pattern emerges here,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna get into that next episode. But sort
Speaker 1: of the most sort of the zenith of savills organized
Speaker 1: offending Sable somehow insinued himself into the National Health Service,
Speaker 1: despite having having no medical background obviously or anything that
Speaker 1: would qualify him to be so situated. He uh became
Speaker 1: a volunteer porter at Stoke, Command of the Hospital, at
Speaker 1: Leeds General Hospital and at broad More Psychiatric Institute, and
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty eight he was appointed director of what
Speaker 1: was called the broad More Task Force. That this is
Speaker 1: a disc jockey and he's being put in charge of
Speaker 1: this task force mandated with reforming the administrative and and
Speaker 1: treatment regiment of a psychiatric hospital, and he had full
Speaker 1: the four of the hospital. He had a room on premises,
Speaker 1: he had literally the keys to the entire building. And uh,
Speaker 1: it was at these hospitals that he committed dozens of
Speaker 1: assaults on the patients. And as became clear, one of
Speaker 1: his primary interests was access to the morgue. Saville was
Speaker 1: utterly obsessed with death and corpses. It was this ongoing fascination.
Speaker 1: And in is Uh there's this bizarre autobiography Saville wrote
Speaker 1: and you can tell that he wrote it. It wasn't
Speaker 1: a ghostwriter because it's written in this really strange colloquial dialect.
Speaker 1: It's a combination of of sort of like Northern English. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, uh slang speak. It's got it's it's got
Speaker 1: unconventional grammar. Like it's clear he wrote it, Okay, and
Speaker 1: Uh he's talking about how his first job as a
Speaker 1: twelve or thirteen year old in Leeds was you know,
Speaker 1: basically sweeping up at this nursing home and how it
Speaker 1: was great because these these old people would die all
Speaker 1: the time, and before they got taken away, you know,
Speaker 1: you could go in and see them and as he
Speaker 1: put it, spend time with with these dead people and he, uh,
Speaker 1: he was engaging in necrophilia at these hospitals. And one
Speaker 1: of the a couple of the photos I sent you is, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, said I always wore these chunky rings and necklaces. Well, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a that's not an evil eye ring or something
Speaker 1: that's literally a glass eye that he he stole out
Speaker 1: of a course that he was molested. Okay, And yeah,
Speaker 1: that's another one. So this idea that Sevill, nobody knew
Speaker 1: this man was a monster. Okay. He's literally taking trophies
Speaker 1: from his victims, making them into jewelry and then flaunting
Speaker 1: them on on on national television. I that's about as
Speaker 1: flagrant as you can get, you know. And it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's that there's something to that beyond mirror. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: that there's something that beyond the mirror fetishism and exhibitionism
Speaker 1: that you know, some sort of sexual sadists and evil
Speaker 1: devian takes pleasure. And I believe and I'll get into
Speaker 1: the evidence for this as we get on with this
Speaker 1: sort of treatment of Sevil. You know, he very much
Speaker 1: was was an a cult practitioner, and I he thought
Speaker 1: he was deriving power from what he was doing to
Speaker 1: these people. And this this ritualistic uh abuse of the dead,
Speaker 1: as we've discussed in other capacities in this series, that
Speaker 1: very much partakes of a a commitment to transgressive acts
Speaker 1: as a way of of transcending ordinary psychological and moral
Speaker 1: barriers to uh, you know, human conduct that you know,
Speaker 1: suppose they confers power upon the adept. And this uh,
Speaker 1: this goes way back. You know, like I said, there
Speaker 1: was some of these dark and what we consider heretical
Speaker 1: and within our traditions, like there within Tibetan Buddhism, for example,
Speaker 1: there was people who worshiped death and terror gods. But
Speaker 1: also there are people who'd avail themselves to uh you know,
Speaker 1: not not just deprivations of the flesh, but you know,
Speaker 1: uh wallowing and filth and things to overcome their aversion
Speaker 1: to this kind of repellent and repulsive stimulus. Because by
Speaker 1: doing that, they were you know, overcoming human instincts that
Speaker 1: that that that tend to uh you know, preclude uh
Speaker 1: entire categories of conduct and and action. You know, this
Speaker 1: isn't uh something that will just peculiar to stab, but
Speaker 1: where I can just be chalked up to a discreete
Speaker 1: individuated fetish is what I'm getting at, you know, and
Speaker 1: if if you look at the entire pattern of conduct
Speaker 1: over a literal lifetime, I think this becomes fairly clear
Speaker 1: to anybody who knows what they're looking for in this case,
Speaker 1: in cases like it. But the uh and when I
Speaker 1: say it, really I'm jumping around a bit. But it's
Speaker 1: even as Saville sort of reached the end of his relevance,
Speaker 1: you know, Top of the Pops by the nineties, it uh,
Speaker 1: it wasn't It was no longer a weekly program. I
Speaker 1: mean not just because the traditional music charts had We're
Speaker 1: already losing relevance, but that that kind of that sort
Speaker 1: of format was becoming antiquated. I think the last Top
Speaker 1: of the Pops was some sort of Christmas special in
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, which Saville hosted. But you know,
Speaker 1: he remained uh, sort of that center of uh British
Speaker 1: media life because again he was constantly raising huge amounts
Speaker 1: of money for charity. And I don't think that's mysterious
Speaker 1: why he's doing that. Again, I found it a bit
Speaker 1: ridiculous that there's even a conversation about that. Obviously, that
Speaker 1: that kept him in the public eye. And there's all
Speaker 1: kinds of there's all kinds of ridiculous people who are,
Speaker 1: you know, contemptible in their own right, but not nearly
Speaker 1: the degree of savile, you know, who make a big
Speaker 1: show of, you know, you know, starting up some charity
Speaker 1: for you know, for a you know, a victim, mascots
Speaker 1: or for sick people or whatever. I mean, look look
Speaker 1: like that billan Wendy Gates Foundation. But famously Louis Threau,
Speaker 1: who in the nineties to the early two thousands, I've
Speaker 1: always found him to be a really smarmy, grotesque, uh individual.
Speaker 1: He reminds me of a he reminds me of a
Speaker 1: Robert Donney Junior's character in Natural Born Killers. You know,
Speaker 1: I mean, he's almost that ledge of a caricature and
Speaker 1: he he Uh. In two thousand, he did this uh
Speaker 1: special on on Jimmy Saville when his his sort of
Speaker 1: life and times, where Louis Threau spent a weekend with
Speaker 1: Saville and that will you know, travel to some gala event.
Speaker 1: Did you know in that it had to recognizing the
Speaker 1: contributions to whatever charity or because he was currently emphasizing
Speaker 1: and uh, it's a bizarre program I anybody who's interested
Speaker 1: in the subject matter should watch it, and pretty much
Speaker 1: out of the gate thorough asks him, you know, what's
Speaker 1: about these doc rumors about you in pedophilia. It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so what kind of question is that to ask if
Speaker 1: supposedly Savo was, you know, hiding his nature from everybody
Speaker 1: you know? And uh, Sabio gave a typical sort of
Speaker 1: non answer, which was his m But he'd be confronted
Speaker 1: with naked accusations relating to his conduct, he'd avoid the
Speaker 1: question with a nonsensical answer by doing something ridiculous, like
Speaker 1: on one on one occasion in the age, when he
Speaker 1: was asked about one of the instances that made its
Speaker 1: way to the public record, there was some underage girl
Speaker 1: who he was discovered with at is in one of
Speaker 1: his apartments, and when asked about it, Saville literally pulled
Speaker 1: a banana out of his pocket and started eating this
Speaker 1: banana in a really gross way, and the audience starts laughing,
Speaker 1: and that just kind of derailed the entire Atlanta questioning.
Speaker 1: But that's another thing too. Saville was buddies with all
Speaker 1: sorts of police officers in all basically in all the
Speaker 1: jurisdictions where he maintained residences and it was actively offending.
Speaker 1: And I mean that's very strange too. It's not it's
Speaker 1: not odd that some deviant individual would would would cultivate
Speaker 1: those kinds of relationships, but the fact that so many
Speaker 1: police officers, including men of coming and rank, would be
Speaker 1: receptive to that, and what I'm getting at, and I'll
Speaker 1: proffer what I think is the evidence substantiating this inference.
Speaker 1: The Sable had a lot in common with Epstein. He
Speaker 1: was far far more violent and personally, you know, and
Speaker 1: but he was he was both a fixer and he
Speaker 1: was a pimp. You know. There's there's an anecdote, and
Speaker 1: I'll get into this next episode because there's a number
Speaker 1: of documents that I want to be able to refer
Speaker 1: to that I haven't corralled yet. A nephew of Saviles
Speaker 1: related that in the nineteen seventies, him and some of
Speaker 1: his friends, you know, they periodically run away and find
Speaker 1: themselves in London, the London suburbs, you know, sniff and
Speaker 1: blue and drinking and stuff. And he said, on one
Speaker 1: of these uh, on one these larks, some old eye
Speaker 1: shows up and offered him, you know, a substantial some
Speaker 1: of money to come with him to a party. So
Speaker 1: he and his friends get there and it's a it's
Speaker 1: a bunch of middle aged and elderly men, you know,
Speaker 1: having their way with with boys. And Saville's nephew said
Speaker 1: that suddenly Saville shows up and grabs him and says,
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? You've got to get out
Speaker 1: of here. And uh so sabl like rushes him out
Speaker 1: of there, puts some money in his pocket, uh takes
Speaker 1: them to the train station. Is something in the order
Speaker 1: of like, you know, if you tell your aunt and
Speaker 1: numble about this, you know, you're I don't need to
Speaker 1: tell you what's gonna happen to you, you know. And
Speaker 1: I find that entirely credible. But and then so that's
Speaker 1: one aspect of this and why it's relevant. It's not
Speaker 1: just it's a of it's not just the case of
Speaker 1: you know, elite dev and c or whatever. Saville is
Speaker 1: very much a procure and a fixer and a and
Speaker 1: a pimp and an extortionist, you know. Like I said,
Speaker 1: he was very Epstein like. He also, he'd make a
Speaker 1: big deal in in interviews, in his autobiography and other
Speaker 1: things about how much he loved the Jewish community, and
Speaker 1: he said in Leeds growing up, he said, you know,
Speaker 1: there was all these Jewish refugees from the continent and
Speaker 1: he's like, I realized that these people knew how to
Speaker 1: do business. You know, what a great race of people.
Speaker 1: And this British invesigative journalist Dan Davies, he visited Sable's
Speaker 1: home in the early two thousands, and so Sadle's showing
Speaker 1: him essentially his trophy case. You know, here's you know,
Speaker 1: here's me with the Queen. You know, here's me with
Speaker 1: the chuck Berry. You know, here's a here's uh you
Speaker 1: know this uh, here's my order of the British Empire.
Speaker 1: But then he's got this manora like proudly displayed, and
Speaker 1: Davies is like, what is that And he's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know that's uh. I was recognized, you know, from
Speaker 1: my service to the Jewish people. When you know a
Speaker 1: London rabbi gifted me, that isn't that great? And he's
Speaker 1: a church He was a Churchill worshiper too, Like he
Speaker 1: sought out Churchill daughter and collected a bunch of church
Speaker 1: On memorabilia and things, and so that was both those
Speaker 1: things are are consistent motifs, and that's not insignificant in
Speaker 1: my opinion, you know, and it bespeaks of how this
Speaker 1: uh that this Catholic guy from Leeds with uh whose
Speaker 1: father was basically a riminal class criminal could you know,
Speaker 1: get insinuated into some of these social circles. But uh,
Speaker 1: it's you know, but the uh. To bring it back
Speaker 1: to the Threau documentary, the whole thing really made a
Speaker 1: lot of people queasy, especially because the Thereau had become
Speaker 1: This is the first time a lot of Americans became
Speaker 1: truly aware of seb you know who had I mean,
Speaker 1: my my folks knew about him because they my folks
Speaker 1: lived in the UK for years, and people who were
Speaker 1: into sort of the deep lore of of the music
Speaker 1: industry knew about him. But Thereau came in the raidar
Speaker 1: of a lot of Americans because he spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time in America with American subject matter, like he
Speaker 1: famously did one of these interviews, uh with with Tommy
Speaker 1: Mesker was actually kind of funny because Mesger kind of
Speaker 1: terrorizes him. He did this one where he was h
Speaker 1: he was in the San Fernando Valley in the late
Speaker 1: nineties talking all these people who were involved in pornography.
Speaker 1: When when when when VHS and DVD pornography was at zenith,
Speaker 1: you know he uh, I think he did one where
Speaker 1: he was talking to a people from the Army of God,
Speaker 1: you know, they and that was the outfit that Eric
Speaker 1: Rudolph was at least obliquely affiliated with. You know, there
Speaker 1: were people who tractually had a jihad mindset towards the
Speaker 1: issue of resisting abortion on demand. But so in any event,
Speaker 1: a lot of Americans watched this Jimmy Sevil piece and
Speaker 1: come away with the impression of less. That's really disturbing,
Speaker 1: and it seemed as if Threau was trying to it
Speaker 1: listit incriminating statements from Sable, but then at Saville's funeral,
Speaker 1: throw eulogizes them as some kind of hero. You know,
Speaker 1: this was a great man. You know, he was so
Speaker 1: thoughtless and he lived to serve others, you know, really
Speaker 1: really strange. And that's kind of what characterizes, particularly from
Speaker 1: the seventies onward, that that sort of characterizes the way
Speaker 1: he was presented by a lot of his fellow media personalities.
Speaker 1: The whole draw was that, Okay, it's strongly suspected, if
Speaker 1: not genuinely obvious. This man is a deviant. Let's try
Speaker 1: and put him on the spot and see if he
Speaker 1: slips up, but then simultaneously assigning the sort of hero
Speaker 1: status to him as this great man, you know, and
Speaker 1: that I there's people who, uh, this is I don't
Speaker 1: show this perspective. There's people who suggest that Sava was
Speaker 1: a genuine sorcerer, that he can manipulate people's perceptions in
Speaker 1: ways that bordered on supernatural. I mean, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 1: I Sava wasn't definitely in communion with dark forces, or
Speaker 1: at least he believed that he was, and that was
Speaker 1: his grand ambition in terms of you know, his his
Speaker 1: metaphysical belief structure and things. Whether you or I or
Speaker 1: anybody else believes in that kind of thing or not.
Speaker 1: But I it's it's an oversimplification and somebody characterize it
Speaker 1: that way. Like I said, at the in the UK
Speaker 1: eparticularly in England, in Scotland as well, the body politic
Speaker 1: really was convinced that this was uh, this man was
Speaker 1: a powerful and sinister personage and they and they were
Speaker 1: afraid of him even in death, and to this day,
Speaker 1: both BBC and UH Scotland Yard. They're very very taciturn
Speaker 1: on the subject of Seville. And I've heard it said often, well,
Speaker 1: obviously there's ongoing fallout from this. They don't want themselves
Speaker 1: to be exposed. Then everybody would just as soon forget it.
Speaker 1: That's that's not really what we're talking about. That there's
Speaker 1: something that there's something deeper than that and sociological terms
Speaker 1: and in terms of symbolic psychology, you know, And that's
Speaker 1: what's disturbing about this. It it speaks to some of
Speaker 1: these really strange and atavistic characteristics of you know, the
Speaker 1: culture of the United Kingdom. And one of the reasons,
Speaker 1: like we were talking about when we were talking about C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis some months back, for sometime last year, probably we're
Speaker 1: talking about that Hideous Strength specifically which which is a
Speaker 1: really incredible book, you know, and of particular significance in
Speaker 1: that novel is the person of Merlin as a wominal figure. Well,
Speaker 1: I also really will and I mentioned in that discussion
Speaker 1: the film The wicker Man with a Word and Christopher Lee.
Speaker 1: But the in The wigger Man that the person the
Speaker 1: character of Lord Somerset played by Christopher Lee, he's supposed
Speaker 1: to embody the enduring pagan UH psychological and metaphysical stratum
Speaker 1: of Britain that endures, and this ongoing tension between Paganism
Speaker 1: and Christianity and reason and and and pre rational an
Speaker 1: atavistic UH belief and in magic and spirits and occulted phenomenon.
Speaker 1: That's a real thing. And Savile is is part of that,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, yes, there are parallels being Saville
Speaker 1: and Epstein definitely whatever was said, But there wouldn't be
Speaker 1: a Jimmy Saville in America. It just wouldn't. It wouldn't
Speaker 1: develop that way, and the person in question wouldn't be
Speaker 1: viewed that way. You know. That's why the American Samiel
Speaker 1: is Epstein, if you follow me.
Speaker 2: Well, and on that point, there are sort of more
Speaker 2: Sables than Sable, right you have Gary Glitter, Yeah, who
Speaker 2: is not one hundred Obviously they're different people and I'm
Speaker 2: speaking metaphorically of course, but very very similar figures. And
Speaker 2: you know, in the US, sure you could say, well,
Speaker 2: look at at someone like Ditty and okay, ostensibly there
Speaker 2: are broad similarities, but Diddy just seems like a sex pervert. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's not, right, There's not that much more to it,
Speaker 2: and similarly, this is well beyond the scope, but it's
Speaker 2: it's worth mentioning. Most of the outrageous things you've read
Speaker 2: about Diddy are al leegations in civil court, which, given
Speaker 2: the community at question, be very very suspicious when everyone
Speaker 2: you know who maybe met him once is saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: did he you know, had his way with me? Give
Speaker 2: me three million dollars Thomas, Yeah.
Speaker 1: No. As far as real quick, as far as I
Speaker 1: can tell about about Sean Diddy Combs, he seems, uh,
Speaker 1: he seems like a really really dumb black guy, and
Speaker 1: he seems like a he seems like a very closet
Speaker 1: and self hating gay guy. He gets up with some
Speaker 1: really really gross things, and like a lot of guys
Speaker 1: from that population, he thinks he's iceberg slim and tries
Speaker 1: to flex of some sort of pimp. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's nothing, there's nothing there beyond typical, you know, banality
Speaker 1: of a very familiar sort a figure who relates to
Speaker 1: Saddle as well. William McGrath. He was at the center
Speaker 1: of the Concora Boys School scandal, which is an awful,
Speaker 1: awful case.
Speaker 2: Is that the last image you have for me, By
Speaker 2: the way, what's that? Is that the relevant to the
Speaker 2: last image you have sent to me?
Speaker 1: I can't remember. Bring it up. No, that's uh. That's
Speaker 1: the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe on the left and Saddle
Speaker 1: on the right. That's them their buddies the early nineties.
Speaker 1: But William McGrath in the in the movie Resurrection Man
Speaker 1: that our dear friend Pete Q and I reviewed the
Speaker 1: the the kind of almost satanic UH preacher who's uh
Speaker 1: curating Victor and his uh and and the coump and
Speaker 1: and his uh you know, death squad carry out these
Speaker 1: ripper murders that he's obviously based on McGrath and uh
Speaker 1: Gusty Spence forbade under presumably penalty of death. Ultimately, it
Speaker 1: which from associating with McGrath. But McGrath was a He
Speaker 1: was a child molester and and a homosexual rapist, and
Speaker 1: he had this bizarre ideology of British Israelism that he
Speaker 1: tried to incorporate into this radical loyalist perspective, and he
Speaker 1: founded this almost cult uh like organization called Tara and
Speaker 1: uh he it became always dispense that he was he
Speaker 1: was trying to draw young UVF men into his orbit
Speaker 1: for deviant purposes. But there was this, uh, there's a
Speaker 1: there's this home for orphaned youth and McGrath and his
Speaker 1: uh and his sicko buddies were esplating these these boys
Speaker 1: in the worst way and every organized capacity. And uh
Speaker 1: McGrath is obviously from cure and his his clients included,
Speaker 1: you know, policemen and lesser royals and things. And there's
Speaker 1: another case. The there's another case the establishment. They're trying
Speaker 1: to present this as some as some isolated incident, when
Speaker 1: clearly it was not. But you know McGrath also, I mean,
Speaker 1: I it's murky. And obviously obviously people uh Samath to
Speaker 1: Irish Republicanism will claim that McGrath is somehow just a
Speaker 1: representative of loyalism. I'm not gonna open that kind of worms.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's fucking stupid. But beyond that, I
Speaker 1: believe a lot of McGraths British Israel Israelism bullshit was
Speaker 1: was a cover for like bizarre occult beliefs. But you know,
Speaker 1: he's he's another like he's another. He was a sort
Speaker 1: of uh, a mini Epstein of a very uh sort
Speaker 1: of provincial sort that could only exist in a highly
Speaker 1: insular cultural environment. But nevertheless, yeah and yeah, Gary, Gary
Speaker 1: Glitter uh and uh and Saville were buddies. So that
Speaker 1: Saville and friends. I mean, that's another thing. Saville really
Speaker 1: he made a big deal about how he'd never get
Speaker 1: married because his only true love was his mommy. You know,
Speaker 1: like another another sociopathic deviant who's he's a mama's boy,
Speaker 1: you know, just like Piggy Clinton and many others. But he, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he he lacked normal emotions and patterns of
Speaker 1: association with his fellow man and woman. You know, he
Speaker 1: really didn't have friends. He had people he seemed to
Speaker 1: wield some sort of power over, and he had he
Speaker 1: had co conspirators, and he had deviants who shared in
Speaker 1: his evil fascinations and things. But you know, it's not
Speaker 1: as if he had a circle of comrades or something,
Speaker 1: but such that he did have affiliates. Uh. Yeah, Gary
Speaker 1: Glitter was one of them. And well that's another bizarre
Speaker 1: thing too, uh Saville. Uh, some of his police associates
Speaker 1: and well placed men in the various communities that he'd
Speaker 1: insinue it himself into, he'd uh he'd organize uh like
Speaker 1: cocktail hours or tea times that he'd called them Monday Club,
Speaker 1: if memory serves, and Dan Davies said that when Saville
Speaker 1: finally agreed to be interviewed, upon entering Savile's apartment, he
Speaker 1: was cornered and then frisked by a couple of cops
Speaker 1: who were like hanging out there and stables. Chuck almost
Speaker 1: said like, you know, yeah, they're they're they're charter members
Speaker 1: of my Monday Club, you know, And it's like that
Speaker 1: hell was that? You know? It's yeah, but yeah, that's
Speaker 1: about all I got for my introduction. I don't want
Speaker 1: to get into the substance of some of this documentary
Speaker 1: evidence because all the I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: interrupt the natural flow of the conversation, So not at all. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: we can.
Speaker 2: We can return whenever you're ready for another part on that. Obviously,
Speaker 2: people know where to find you, Thomas on Substack, on
Speaker 2: your YouTube channel. Uh, honestly, your YouTube channel has been great.
Speaker 2: A lot of the old content that was previously paywalled
Speaker 2: is available there for free. Check it out and I'll
Speaker 2: be down in the description link the Substack. Also, sooner
Speaker 2: or later, we're going to have another episode of Radio
Speaker 2: for Chicago out. If you were on the gum Road
Speaker 2: and you're wondering why did I not get notified, I
Speaker 2: don't know, man. Gum Road is a truly baffling platform.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can't genuinely glad of it. Man, I really can't.
Speaker 1: I thought it was just because I'm old, but it no,
Speaker 1: it makes no sense whatsoever.
Speaker 2: So if that's annoying, obviously. The episodes are also mirrored
Speaker 2: on my substack and Thomas's substack. I wish there was
Speaker 2: a better version of gum Road than gum Road, but
Speaker 2: it's what we've got. As far as my stuff, the
Speaker 2: Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcasts,
Speaker 2: check out my stuff there. Episodes are early in ad
Speaker 2: free for a few bucks a month on Patreon, substack
Speaker 2: or gum Road. You want to support me more directly, well,
Speaker 2: guess what Fox and Son's Coffee. I know the guy
Speaker 2: who runs it. He's a good guy. Buy your coffee there.
Speaker 2: He's code Burden. It's fifteen percent off. I had it
Speaker 2: this morning. Actually, I have most of the coffee ground
Speaker 2: still in the cop It's pretty good.
Speaker 1: One of our guys.
Speaker 2: Check that out again, Thomas, thanks so much man, it
Speaker 2: was fun.
Speaker 1: No, thank you my fun.
Speaker 2: Everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't last forever.
Speaker 1: Good Night,