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See website for details. 48 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:15.400 You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking 49 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:18.520 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:26.159 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week, 51 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:30.120 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 52 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.199 killers in true crime history true murder with your host 53 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.759 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 54 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.879 Good evening. In Why We Love Serial Killers, Drew University 55 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:58.280 Criminology Professor Scott Bond, PhD simultaneously examines the publics and 56 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.039 the media's fascination with the monsters among us, and the 57 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.360 fascination in the ways in which that attention impacts them. 58 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:09.479 He writes about serial killers' behaviors and the research from 59 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:13.360 the FBI's original work to more recent models, then informs 60 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:18.919 the law enforcement professionals charged with profiling, catching and studying them. 61 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:22.680 A real bonus is doctor Bond's correspondence with Dennis Rader 62 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.400 bt K or bind Torture Kill, for its insight into 63 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:31.560 the mind of an especially chilling, murderous psychopath. As such, 64 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:35.680 it is a stark reminder that, irrespective of any deceptively 65 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:40.479 benign appearances to the contrary, that they are never like us. 66 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.719 The book that is featured this evening is Why We 67 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.639 Love Serial Killers, The Curious Appeal of the world's most 68 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:51.439 savage Killers. With my special guest journalists and author and 69 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.840 professor doctor Scott Bond. Welcome to the program, and thank 70 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:57.919 you for a Green dis interview Doctor Scott Bond. 71 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.639 Well, thank you, Dan. It's really good to be here 72 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.919 and it's my pleasure so so I'm looking forward to it. 73 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:09.560 Well, thanks very much. And this is again I applaud 74 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:12.840 you for something unique in the animals of true crime 75 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:16.160 here in a book that really looks at how we 76 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:20.399 look at serial killers and how we and why that 77 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:24.399 is so. And you've been many many important issues with 78 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.319 this book and it's very, very fascinating and a lot 79 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.560 of fun actually and makes you kind of wonder. So anyway, 80 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:37.120 well let's get right to this. How much of this 81 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:42.199 phenomena of why we love serial killers? Is fascination with 82 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:49.079 serial killers is an American phenomena? Tell us how American 83 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.360 really this whole fascination and the whole serial killer phenomena 84 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:54.720 itself really is. 85 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:59.319 Well, that's a great question. And you know, if you 86 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:01.879 if you trace it back to sort of the roots, 87 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:07.040 the first sort of celebrity serial killer, if you will, 88 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:11.279 was probably Jack the Ripper, who of course was in London. 89 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:16.720 So the roots of it really go back to London. 90 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:21.120 And for the sake of your of your listeners. The 91 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.000 reason we can really point to Jack the Ripper is 92 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.399 it was the proliferation of broadsheet newspapers that had just 93 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:36.759 recently come on the horizon in major cities like London 94 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:41.399 in the late nineteenth century, and it was those media 95 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:46.759 vehicles that really propelled Jack the Ripper into the stratosphere 96 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:54.120 in terms of making him a crime celebrity. But in 97 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.040 the say along the same vein, I think the reason 98 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.399 that we're so familiar with the Ted Bundy's and the 99 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.839 Jeffrey Dahmers is because the United States is the mediate 100 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.519 capital of the world. So it's serial killers here who, 101 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:12.319 particularly starting in the nineteen seventies, then really became what 102 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.000 I would call celebrity monsters. And actually that's the term 103 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:17.879 that I used in that book to describe these individuals 104 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.839 that have been transformed into almost like larger than light ghules, 105 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:26.480 almost like Dracula like characters. 106 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:31.439 Right, And you really say that, well, I'll let you 107 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.480 say about how what serial killers really represent in society. 108 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:42.480 At one time there was more these not fairy tales, 109 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:45.560 but tall tales and tales that were passed on from 110 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:50.639 generation to generation, tales of the boogeyman, tell us what 111 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:54.480 serial killers seem to represent in today's society, Like you say, 112 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:57.519 from predominantly from the sixties and the seventies in America. 113 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:04.279 Yeah, yeah. Well, in fact, the term serial killer, we 114 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.120 believe that it was coined in nineteen seventy four by 115 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.240 Robert Wrestler, the late Robert Wrestler, who was one of 116 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:17.319 the premier and original FBI profilers, and he came up 117 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:22.319 with that term based upon you're using the analogy of 118 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:26.000 serial adventures from the nineteen forties in movie theaters, the 119 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.560 Lone Ranger and Batman and so forth, and he likens 120 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:30.920 serial killers to that because they would just you know, 121 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:37.839 go from one to another, multiple victims. And I would 122 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.839 say that these individuals have really become sort of popcorn 123 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.800 entertainment in our popular culture. And what I mean by 124 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:49.279 that is the way that they're treated both both real 125 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:53.480 serial killers, the Ted Bundy's, the Jeoffrey Dahmers, the btks, 126 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:58.079 as well as fictional serial killers like Cannibal, the Cannibal Lecture. 127 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:03.079 They're almost indistinguishable. They're there, they're presented in this highly stylized, 128 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.720 larger than life fashion. I did it an analysis of 129 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.000 two leading media vehicles in New York Times as well 130 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:13.519 as Time Magazine, who are you know, quite prestigious uh 131 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:19.160 uh publications, And what I what I found is that 132 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:23.199 they still would rely on very sensationalized language, typically referring 133 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:28.720 to serial killers as evil as monsters, devils, vampires, using 134 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.360 those sort of terms. Well, those are inhuman terms, and 135 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.639 so so what tends to happen is these individuals become 136 00:08:34.759 --> 00:08:38.320 almost you know, like gothic monsters in the popular culture. 137 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.000 And you know, and as such, you know, my argument 138 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.279 or a lot of my uh the premise of my 139 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:49.519 book is that that these individuals become indistinguishable from one 140 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:54.559 another fact versus fiction. In fact, when Jeffrey Dahmer was 141 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.240 was caught, he was referred to as the real life 142 00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.840 Hannibal Lecture. So there was a blurring of fact and 143 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:05.000 there and one of my also one of my arguments, 144 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.559 and here's where I think it does harm to society, Dan, 145 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.279 is that when you focus on the serial killers and 146 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:16.240 transform them into these, as I said, sort of gothic monsters, 147 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:18.840 you lose sight of the victims, and you lose sight 148 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:21.240 of the fact that it's real humans who are being 149 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:24.080 destroyed and the lives that are being destroyed here to 150 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.879 the extent that everybody knows the name of Ted Bundy. 151 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.080 Everybody knows Jeffrey Dahmer, But what about the dozens and 152 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:34.080 dozens of victims? Ted Bundy killed thirty six women? At 153 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:36.600 least can anyone actually recall the name of one of 154 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.519 the victims itself? In my experience, very few people can. 155 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:44.840 Well, I can't agree with you, and I see your point, 156 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.559 but I was thinking about that after reading your book 157 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:50.240 and then now hearing your response to that as well. 158 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:53.480 But I got to say that I think a fair 159 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.960 amount is that if you have thirty three victims, or 160 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.000 forty nine victims, or seventeen victims, and the media does 161 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.080 what the media does, and you keep playing the name 162 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:06.519 of the perpetrator over and over again, it's just easier 163 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.960 to remember the killer. But I think, as a you know, 164 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:14.600 a real big true crime reader myself, that we empathize 165 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:18.559 with the victims. But you know, just like everyone else 166 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.919 who may not even empathize with the victims, And like 167 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.159 you talk about, there's a difference between how some people 168 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.879 look at the same information in that regard, in that 169 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.759 I think that a lot of us really really empathize 170 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:36.039 with the victim. But we are really, I think guiltily 171 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:41.360 fascinated with the psychology of why these people are so 172 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:47.840 inhumane or so much on the again outer limit of humanity, 173 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.519 as you describe in your book as well. 174 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:56.159 Yes, absolutely, And part of the attraction, part of the 175 00:10:55.600 --> 00:11:00.279 the morbid fascination with these with these individuals is is 176 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.759 the fact that they are larger than life. And one 177 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.399 of the analogies that I like to use is, you know, 178 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:11.320 there are people who are fascinated with natural disasters, things 179 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.679 like earthquakes, things like avalanches, tsunamis, title waves, and at 180 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.840 the same time, we're also fascinated, many of us with 181 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.320 predators in nature that are larger than life and rare 182 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.039 and exotic, like great white sharks. Well, I would argue 183 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.960 that serial killers in many ways are like a title 184 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.879 wave or a great white shark. They're rare, they're exotic, 185 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.679 they're powerful, and they're deadly. And I think that has 186 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.000 to do with the fascination as well. 187 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:46.960 Now, speaking of deadly predators and the like, it was 188 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.879 very interesting for me to because I think it's a 189 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.759 lot of people that study serial killers, the psychiatrists especially 190 00:11:54.759 --> 00:12:00.320 that have studied serial killers, have done it on will say, 191 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.639 very limited amount of time in terms of those interviews. 192 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:07.399 Now you tell us about your two years with bt 193 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.200 K and why b d K, and they just tell 194 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.279 us a little bit about your correspondence with Buying Torture 195 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:17.159 Killed BTK. Dennis Rader, Sure. 196 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.639 Sure, absolutely well. The I can trace the sort of 197 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.000 the roots of this book why we Love serial Killers. 198 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.600 I can almost trace it back to to in many ways, 199 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.759 my students. I'm a criminology professor, and what I've noticed 200 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.600 over the years is whenever the topic goes to serial 201 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.039 killers in the classroom, my students are on the edge 202 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:40.240 of their seats. They just cannot wait. They're practically vibrating 203 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:43.240 in their seats, They're so excited to hear about serial killers. 204 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:47.080 And I realized that that, you know, there are a 205 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.600 lot of people that way, and myself included, who are 206 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:53.600 fascinated by, you know, by these individuals. And so when 207 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.879 I when I started thinking about this book, I thought 208 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.879 about it from the terms that that some of these 209 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:05.000 individuals actually have brand names, if you think about it, 210 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:10.000 Son of Sam, the knight Stalker, Jack the Ripper, BTK, 211 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:15.600 Buying Torture Kill, the knight Stalker. As I said, the 212 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:19.240 Boston Strangler. These are almost brand names, and you can 213 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:22.480 actually buy merchandise and products and books and films and 214 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.559 games and puzzles that have these names associated with it. 215 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.720 And so I said to myself, these are commodities. These 216 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:32.120 are it's pop culture entertainment in many ways. So I 217 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:35.120 decided to go to the source as part of my research, 218 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.240 go to Son of Sam and BTK as you mentioned, 219 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:44.000 and question them why did they name themselves? Because those 220 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.759 are two individuals who named themselves son is David Birkwoitz 221 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:50.159 called themselves son of Sam, and Dennis Rader called himself 222 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:53.279 buying torture killed. So I questioned, why why did you 223 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.720 do this? What was the purpose? What did you get 224 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:00.000 out of it? Were you aware of the public's fascinating 225 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:02.919 in the fact that public was absorbed in these stories? 226 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.120 And so I decided to go to the as I said, 227 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.360 go to go to the very sources as part of 228 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:12.000 my investigation. And in the case of bt K, he 229 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:17.840 was only too willing to uh correspond and and uh 230 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.519 and through the mail with me. And I told him 231 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:25.759 I'm writing a book, and I sort of played Clarice Starling. 232 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.639 I said, I, you know, I can learn from you. 233 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.240 I can uh you know, uh the silence of the 234 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:35.200 lamb and uh you know, so I'd love to question 235 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.720 you and as part of the research for my book. 236 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.960 And again he's he thinks he's the most interesting fellow 237 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.159 in the world. So he was more than happy to 238 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:48.279 cooperate because it feeds his ego. And what I learned 239 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:53.480 is if this is a truly truly psychopathic, narcissistic individual, 240 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.120 he the only thing that he really regrets. He sort 241 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:00.440 of gives lip service to the fact that he that 242 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:03.840 that he regrets his murders. I don't believe that he 243 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.440 really does. What he really regrets is getting caught. And 244 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.559 he he likens himself to a natural born killer, a predator. 245 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:17.159 In fact, he uses the analogies like a shark, a hawk, 246 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.399 a wolf to describe himself. Even to the extent that 247 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.600 Dan and I think your listeners may find this fascinating, 248 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:29.480 is that he has created his own little logo for himself, 249 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:34.440 his name Dennis. When he signs his letters, he draws 250 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.039 it in the shape of a shark with huge teeth. 251 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.639 So that's what he's actually created, like his own little 252 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:46.720 prison logo. Fascinating his just sense of the individual, So 253 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:47.679 just a. 254 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:53.399 Sense of the narcissism too. Now, what were you most surprised? Yeah, 255 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.240 I mean you're not a guy to be surprised too 256 00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:00.480 often with this. But what was, if anything, surprising or 257 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.200 what did you actually learn that you didn't think he 258 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.720 would go going in with? What were you surprised at 259 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:07.399 learning from Dennis Raider? 260 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.480 Well, bt K the one of the interesting things and 261 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:17.600 fascinating things about him. Uh, that I that I learned, 262 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:21.320 and it shocked me at first, But the more that 263 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.799 I thought about it, it's very consistent. He's not able 264 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:29.080 to live out his fantasies the way he did on 265 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:34.559 the outside. Uh, serial killers that, as you know, their 266 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.360 killing is is based in fantasy. They fantasize about it 267 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.120 in advance. Many of them have a particular type of 268 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.480 victim that they're interested in. And as as Dennis Rader 269 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.440 definitely did, and he called it trolling. He would look 270 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.360 for the next perfect victim and he would seek them out, 271 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:55.120 and he watched them and so forth. Well, he can't 272 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.320 fantasize in prison that way any any longer. In fact, 273 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.320 his media is even screened. They are, they're careful what 274 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.720 he is allowed to look at. And and view because 275 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.279 of the fact that it could create an erotic sense 276 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:14.880 of arousal and and and feed his fantasy needs. So 277 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:19.000 he still fantasizes he is a need to for a 278 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.880 fantasy outlet. So what he's done is he's created an 279 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.240 investment strategy. He actually he sits in his in his 280 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:31.079 little eight by ten cell and meticulously follows the stock 281 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.480 market and the real estate and commodity markets. And he's 282 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:39.559 created a fantasy investment portfolio that he tracks meticulously all 283 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:43.400 day long, listening to the radio, tracking his investments. And 284 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:49.279 he's proud to both that he's made a fortune since 285 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:52.160 he's been in prison in two thousand and five. So 286 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:58.200 he's created a fantasy investment portfolio for himself and that's 287 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:00.680 the way he lives at his fantasy needs now. So 288 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.920 it was very surprising, but it's also very consistent with 289 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:09.960 his his his needs. 290 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.880 There is there a common I know there's a lot 291 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.519 of shared characteristics from serial killers, but at the same 292 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:17.880 time that's part of the mythology as well, that they 293 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.400 all a profile can fit them into a nice tight 294 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.319 little slot, and that everybody has the same kind of behavior. 295 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:29.440 But really as a shared characteristic, how important or not 296 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:36.440 was the idea of re living the crimes by talking 297 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.960 to people like you or people like me or other authors. 298 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.799 How important was it to relive if you didn't have 299 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.319 anything left but that How important was that? 300 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:53.279 Well, that's also a great question. It is important to 301 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.920 say that that serial killers are motivated by by very 302 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.559 very different things. One of the myths is that it's 303 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:06.039 all about sex. Well that's just not true. Probably somewhere 304 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:08.920 around fifty percent or maybe slightly more than fifty percent 305 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:13.279 of all serial killers are motivated by sex. But sex 306 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.279 isn't necessarily even the primary motive there. It might well 307 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.960 be the control and domination of the individual is the 308 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.480 primary sense of satisfaction that they get, and sex is 309 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:30.039 really is secondary, so, you know, And they're motivated sometimes 310 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:34.200 by having a mission. There are serial killers who feel 311 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:38.200 the need to rid society of a particular type of individual, 312 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.839 prostitutes or homeless people, for example. So some of them 313 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.319 are mission mission oriented. They believe that they've been given 314 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:52.039 some you know, some agenda to fulfill. In the case 315 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.839 of a BTK, now, he is an individual that is 316 00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:03.279 incredibly narcissistic and there or loves attention. So anything anything 317 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.160 that is going to draw attention to him and put 318 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.119 himself in the spotlight, is going to feed his ego. 319 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:12.359 And one of the stories that he told me in 320 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:16.400 his letters to me, and I think, you know again 321 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:22.039 this it just shows his narcissism. He Dennis Raider for 322 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.240 a while carried a badge. He was not a law 323 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:28.200 enforcement officer per se, but what he did he carried 324 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:32.720 a city badge and he was uh and it's basically 325 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:37.400 a home inspector for various statutes and compliance. So he 326 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.839 could tell you to cut your lawn or keep your 327 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:41.799 dog in a leash. You know that, that's that kind 328 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:43.599 of thing. And he loved it. Of course that was 329 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.519 a power trip for him. Well, because Wichitai is you know, 330 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.559 it's a modest sized city. It's not a huge it's 331 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.200 not New York City. Much of the of city Hall 332 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:55.279 is confined to one or two buildings. So when Dennis 333 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.079 Rader went to city Hall to get his badge to 334 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.839 be this this the compliance officer. Guess what he was 335 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.440 introduced to. He was shown the BTK war room where 336 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:12.200 all of the detectives had set up the the investigation 337 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.400 to track VTK, and they took they took Dennis Rader 338 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:16.960 in and showed it to him. He said, in the 339 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.759 letter to me, he said, what a rush with an 340 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.640 exclamation point. That was probably, you know, one of the 341 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.640 highlights of his life that moment, because there he was 342 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.720 asking in the glory of the investigation, thinking to himself, 343 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:32.720 you fools, you have no idea that it's me. 344 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.359 Yeah, And they had no idea his His his veneer 345 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:39.880 was quite good, wasn't it. 346 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.880 Absolutely for thirty years. You know, he basically was able 347 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:50.519 to avoid the detection and apprehension for thirty years. And 348 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.599 the reason that he that he got caught if for 349 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.400 your for your listeners who may not be aware, it 350 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.559 was basically his own ego and unarraticism that that tripped 351 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:05.200 him up. He had he had been corresponding through through 352 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:09.880 the mail with the late ken Landworth, the UH homicide 353 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.200 detective who had been tracking him and chasing him for 354 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.240 a number of years, and they had developed, you know, 355 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:18.759 a bit of a relationship like kind of like Clarice 356 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:23.680 Starling and had an elector through the mail, and Dennis 357 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.599 Rader actually asked ken land where I'm going to send 358 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.359 you a floppy disc with some information on in a 359 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:33.720 letter you can't trace the information on that, can you? 360 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.160 And ken Landber said no, of course not, please, you know, 361 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.480 send send that that sloppy disc right on through. Well, 362 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:45.240 believe it or not, Rader had deleted the address of 363 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.559 the church and his name where he was the president 364 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:51.839 of the Lutheran Church Association, so they traced it right 365 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.759 to him. And this gets to the fact that that 366 00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:58.480 Dennis Rader is not a stupid man. He's anything but 367 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:02.759 a stupid man. But in his psychopathic mind, he really 368 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:06.000 believed that he had a relationship with ken land work 369 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.759 and ken would never violate that, that ken would never 370 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.599 betray him, and he was shocked. Denis Rader was actually 371 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.960 shocked that ken Landwark would lie to him. So he 372 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:19.160 was undone by his own massive ego. 373 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.680 Well, you know, I don't know if it's always the case, 374 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.839 but I know there's a few cases where it's just 375 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.680 really testament. I think to the strategy that the officers 376 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.599 the detectives that are going to interview some of these 377 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:38.119 guys employ and really attuned to that narcissism and get 378 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.839 on their side rather than look at them with the 379 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.599 kind of discuss that they probably do have and just 380 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.920 become their buddies there for you know, whatever long it 381 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.039 takes for these people to really because they really want 382 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:50.759 to tell someone, they know they're going to have to 383 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:51.319 tell someone. 384 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.519 Well again, in the case of a BTK, he actually 385 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:01.079 relished when he was finally caught. Once he that the 386 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:04.480 jig was up, so to speak, then he was more 387 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:08.960 than happy to sit with the law enforcement officers. And 388 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.000 then ultimately in court, you know, he pled guilty to 389 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:14.480 all the murders because he knew the jig was up. 390 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:16.559 But now he got to be the big man on 391 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.599 stage once again and say, look how I fooled you 392 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:21.640 for thirty years. Look at all the things. 393 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:26.200 Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. 394 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:28.880 I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse. 395 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:32.960 Were family Cannoli's and spins mean everything. 396 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:35.680 Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. 397 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:40.799 Introducing the Godfather at Champa Casino dot com. 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