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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening Murder.
Speaker 3: On his Mind. Serial Killer is the true crime story
Speaker 3: of the Original Nightstalker aka East Area rapist, who first
Speaker 3: terrorized Rancho Cordova Sacramento areas in northern California as a
Speaker 3: serial rapist. Moving on to Southern California, he became the
Speaker 3: serial killer and rapist he had worked to become. The
Speaker 3: original night Stalker carried out the murders of at least
Speaker 3: twelve people in and around southern California. The serial rapist
Speaker 3: and murderer moved about freely as law enforcement has been
Speaker 3: able to catch a break and have to this date
Speaker 3: been unable to apprehend him. A very deadly criminalist man
Speaker 3: was prepared to do whatever it took to be free.
Speaker 3: Many active and retired law enforcements still worked the case
Speaker 3: that had been come cold. The fbis once again joined
Speaker 3: in the chase. It has been forty years since the
Speaker 3: first known attacks in northern California. It has been thirty
Speaker 3: years since the last senseless murder of a young woman
Speaker 3: in Irvine, California. How much longer will the families have
Speaker 3: to wait for justice in this case? Will we ever
Speaker 3: match the DNA to a name? Will we ever see
Speaker 3: who has been un the mask? The book that we're
Speaker 3: featuring this evening is Murder on His Mind Serial Killer,
Speaker 3: with my special guest, author and Pen Welcome to the program,
Speaker 3: and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 3: And Penn, thank you.
Speaker 5: So much for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. This is one of the most
Speaker 3: captivating crimes in US history, So thank you very much
Speaker 3: for this very very unique perspective. Now let's get right
Speaker 3: to how you came to be the author of this book,
Speaker 3: Why you wanted to write Murder on His Mind, Serial Killer,
Speaker 3: Why it was important to you, tell us about your background,
Speaker 3: and why you wanted to write this book. Why was
Speaker 3: it important to you?
Speaker 5: Well, ultimately it became extremely important to me, and as
Speaker 5: I go through this whole journey, it has actually become
Speaker 5: even more important. I am from Sacramento, which is where
Speaker 5: these crimes began in nineteen seventy six, and I was
Speaker 5: working downtown Capitol Mall, so I was around the entire time.
Speaker 5: He was attacking all over Sacramento, mostly in the East part,
Speaker 5: and I kept telling myself, well, he's an East Sacramento
Speaker 5: so I should be okay. And I kept wondering, Tea,
Speaker 5: are they going to catch them? And they didn't. Eventually
Speaker 5: he went away, but I didn't know that he hadn't
Speaker 5: been caught. But this is a case that kept coming
Speaker 5: up for me over and over again, unfortunately, and it
Speaker 5: was not on my list of things to write about.
Speaker 5: Sort of became a compelling thing to do.
Speaker 3: Tell us about your early life in Sacramento and the
Speaker 3: neighborhood that you lived in, and also include the time
Speaker 3: we're talking about nineteen seventy six, and some of our
Speaker 3: audiences younger. We always have to remind them to keep
Speaker 3: the context of this and as you provide in the book,
Speaker 3: the times what were they like? And everybody talks about
Speaker 3: a more innocent time, But tell us, as you do,
Speaker 3: how you grew up in the neighborhood and your early life.
Speaker 3: What was it like.
Speaker 5: Well, in the early when I was born at Meath,
Speaker 5: the Air Force based. Interestingly enough, there were a lot
Speaker 5: of different connections that way to Sacramento girl that I was,
Speaker 5: and I went to all the neighborhood schools in the
Speaker 5: South area. Back then, they were building all the sort
Speaker 5: of like the back to the Future time frames that
Speaker 5: you see in the film. In the fifties, they were
Speaker 5: just building houses left, right and sideways because the baby
Speaker 5: boomers were having three and four kids apiece, and so
Speaker 5: all the fields were being transformed into neighborhoods. Larchmont living
Speaker 5: is what I call it. And so all of a
Speaker 5: sudden there was just all this gross and it was
Speaker 5: pretty quiet really, because these were all new neighborhoods. There
Speaker 5: were cows and fields nearby. None of the freeways that
Speaker 5: you see down there today were completed yet, other than
Speaker 5: Highway ninety nine and frontage roads. You step to drive
Speaker 5: Frontage Road to get from South sax to Folsome Lake
Speaker 5: through Rancho Cordova. So it was a different time, and
Speaker 5: people were not worried about kids running around in the
Speaker 5: neighborhood and being out all day and gone and come
Speaker 5: back for dinner or come back when it's dark. So
Speaker 5: that's pretty much how it was.
Speaker 3: Right now, you say that you never lived in fear,
Speaker 3: You never as part of the rest of the society.
Speaker 3: You trusted people, and you didn't imagine any kind of
Speaker 3: horrible thing happening to you. But now, despite that, in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, you had an incident. So, as you
Speaker 3: do describe in the book, tell us about this incident
Speaker 3: that changed everything for you in that way.
Speaker 5: Well, I had at the time, being a fourteen year
Speaker 5: old in seventy one, I was still not allowed to
Speaker 5: go too far off my block when it's starting to
Speaker 5: get dark outside. But I had gone kind of a
Speaker 5: little farther away and was on my way home and
Speaker 5: it was starting to get dark, and all of a
Speaker 5: sudden had this terrible feeling something bad was going to happen,
Speaker 5: And amazingly enough, my instincts told me to run. And
Speaker 5: if I hadn't run, I probably would have gotten caught
Speaker 5: by two men who were in a truck who ran
Speaker 5: or who were following me and actually ended up chasing me.
Speaker 5: One of them jumped out of the truck and started
Speaker 5: chasing me down the street, and I thought, my god,
Speaker 5: I can't get home. I'm too far away.
Speaker 1: What do I do?
Speaker 5: And so I ended up running up to a friend's house,
Speaker 5: hoping they were home, and I put myself between the
Speaker 5: screen door and the front door. And that was also
Speaker 5: a good choice because that made the guy chasing me
Speaker 5: stop cold in his trap. And I started banging on
Speaker 5: the door and yelling, you know, open the door, somebody's
Speaker 5: chasing me, and he just stood there. I glanced over
Speaker 5: my shoulder, and what was amazing to me in retrospect
Speaker 5: was that he just sort of stood there like he
Speaker 5: wasn't concerned that anyone was going to see him. He
Speaker 5: was just waiting to see if someone's going to answer
Speaker 5: the door, and if they weren't, he was ready to,
Speaker 5: you know, complete whatever he was going to do. And
Speaker 5: luckily someone was home and they did let me in.
Speaker 5: But back in the day, once again, whoever this was,
Speaker 5: they didn't leave. They got back in the truck. We
Speaker 5: looked out the window, kind of peeked out of one
Speaker 5: of the windows. It was a friend of mine and
Speaker 5: her mother, and we looked out the window and they
Speaker 5: were just sitting there like they weren't concerned about a
Speaker 5: license plate being written down, or they weren't gonna They
Speaker 5: were contemplating what they should do, and I think probably
Speaker 5: they decided that coming into the house was a bad idea.
Speaker 5: So it was really the most frightened I think I've
Speaker 5: ever been in my life.
Speaker 3: Now, just a product of the times, a different, different
Speaker 3: system and people looking at things differently. What did those
Speaker 3: people do in respond in terms of calling police? And
Speaker 3: then later when you recounted a story to your parents,
Speaker 3: what did they do to report to the police.
Speaker 5: Well, everyone did. Everybody did absolutely nothing, amazingly enough. You know,
Speaker 5: I still had no idea, you know, she maybe we
Speaker 5: should call the police. I was just sort of like, oh,
Speaker 5: this is a horrible, awful thing that happened. I called
Speaker 5: my mother and I told her, and she sent my
Speaker 5: dad out front without telling him what had happened. She
Speaker 5: sent him out front to watch for me to run home.
Speaker 5: Probably an hour after this occurred. But we didn't tell
Speaker 5: my father because I didn't want to get in trouble
Speaker 5: for being out too far away from home and Also,
Speaker 5: my neighbor never called the police either, So it was
Speaker 5: sort of a conspiracy of silence back then away because
Speaker 5: those are things we didn't talk about. Those were things
Speaker 5: we just didn't at least in this particular instance. In
Speaker 5: our neighborhood, people didn't pick up the phone and call
Speaker 5: when weird things happened.
Speaker 3: So you you had a you say, you had a
Speaker 3: pretty good look at the guy chasing you, relatively, but
Speaker 3: you didn't really get a good look at the driver whatsoever.
Speaker 3: So tell us what would the basic description of what
Speaker 3: you did? What did you see in terms of this perpetrator?
Speaker 3: What was the description you would have for the rest
Speaker 3: of your life imprinted in your mind? And then how
Speaker 3: did you feel after this attack? Like I say, you write,
Speaker 3: did it everything changed? Well? How did it change? How
Speaker 3: did your behavior? Right?
Speaker 5: Well, I was a lot more careful. I all of
Speaker 5: a sudden it was scary to be out in the dark,
Speaker 5: or it was a you know, scary experience to be
Speaker 5: too far away and to always be real careful. I've
Speaker 5: I'm careful ever since about where I go, what I do,
Speaker 5: whether I get in my car, I look in my car,
Speaker 5: I have my keys in my hand when I'm ready
Speaker 5: to get in the car. I mean, just everything changed,
Speaker 5: and it was such a frightening experience. Amazingly enough, it
Speaker 5: was something that I didn't talk about, probably for the
Speaker 5: next thirty five years or so. I never I had
Speaker 5: a description of the guy with nobody to tell. I
Speaker 5: never talked about it because it was some you know,
Speaker 5: frightening experience that I didn't want to discuss, I guess,
Speaker 5: and I couldn't babysit after that. I was too afraid
Speaker 5: to be in a house that I wasn't aware of
Speaker 5: my surroundings, you know what I mean, right, So it
Speaker 5: just was such a terrifying experience.
Speaker 3: I can't tell you now as you do in the
Speaker 3: book You start because it is important. November fourth, nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy six, and this is a story that was extensively
Speaker 3: reported with reported on by the Sacramento b So he
Speaker 3: cite this news article man hunted a suspect in eight
Speaker 3: rapes and they talk about the first well, the first
Speaker 3: report that you put in the book. So tell us
Speaker 3: about again. We won't talk about what you were thinking
Speaker 3: about in nineteen seventy six, five years after your attack,
Speaker 3: because it's just we will explain that a little bit later.
Speaker 3: But let's talk about what was reported. What was known.
Speaker 3: You mentioned Richard Shelby. He has been on the show
Speaker 3: before with talking about his book Hunting a Psychopath, So
Speaker 3: let's talk about this first report. What's in there? Talk
Speaker 3: about that.
Speaker 5: Well, basically, apparently there was a blackout with news media
Speaker 5: for the first I think it was eight months, and
Speaker 5: nobody put anything in the paper. I think they were
Speaker 5: worried that they would maybe scare them off or I
Speaker 5: don't know what they're thinking was exactly at the time,
Speaker 5: but they didn't tell the public that this had been occurring.
Speaker 5: And it came up at a meeting one of those
Speaker 5: meetings with about five hundred people at del Dale's School,
Speaker 5: and Carol Daily was there and she had to answer
Speaker 5: questions about the fact that there'd been a rapist out
Speaker 5: there attacking people and no one had really mourned the public. Basically,
Speaker 5: they had this okay, sorry, go ahead, no go ahead.
Speaker 3: So continue what in terms of this, why the explanation
Speaker 3: for why they suppressed this information, and what was the
Speaker 3: information now that they were released into the public, and
Speaker 3: what kind of cautionary steps were they outlining for people.
Speaker 5: Well, they asked the news Needa to hold back on
Speaker 5: reporting the case because they thought the publicity would ruin
Speaker 5: stakeouts basically, So it came to light at this meeting
Speaker 5: and the Sheriff's department had to answer questions about what
Speaker 5: was going on. So they did at that meeting go
Speaker 5: into it extensively about the fact that he wore a mask,
Speaker 5: and they talked about how he dressed and just you know,
Speaker 5: basically a cat burglar type and he would find out
Speaker 5: if there was a husband in the home. And at
Speaker 5: the time he was attacking just females alone. And so
Speaker 5: that was in the news article, but it literally was
Speaker 5: a first attack was in June, and this article didn't
Speaker 5: come out, like you said, until November.
Speaker 3: Now, at the time, what did you know, what did
Speaker 3: you realize? I know in this book you compiled all
Speaker 3: the information, but in November nineteen seventy six and in
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy six in this area, what were you aware
Speaker 3: of in terms of these attacks and what was the
Speaker 3: response from people that other people in the community towards
Speaker 3: these Well.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of different things on the Internet that
Speaker 5: tell about the public's reaction at the time. I mean,
Speaker 5: they sold out of logs they sold out the I mean,
Speaker 5: people were buying guns. There was all kinds of panic
Speaker 5: going on because after a while, I mean, when he
Speaker 5: gets to what was fifteen and then twenty, and it
Speaker 5: just the numbers kept going up. But when I first
Speaker 5: saw any news articles in the newspaper, that's when I
Speaker 5: became aware, obviously, and I you know, again, I was
Speaker 5: trying to be careful. I was a female living alone
Speaker 5: in an apartment and I was nineteen at the time,
Speaker 5: so I just was aware that somebody was out there,
Speaker 5: and it's not a real comfortable feeling. I remember thinking,
Speaker 5: oh my god, you know so, But everybody felt that way.
Speaker 5: So everybody, I think, was probably pretty careful or as
Speaker 5: much as they could be. When I started downtown in
Speaker 5: one of the jobs I got. The same day I
Speaker 5: started the job, there was an article in the newspaper
Speaker 5: when Elvis died same day, and right underneath the article
Speaker 5: for Elvis was an article about the Easter AIA rapist.
Speaker 5: And that was by then nineteen seventy seven, so he'd
Speaker 5: been doing this for more than a year, and it
Speaker 5: continued for another year. So it was a long stretch.
Speaker 3: When did you make a connection, because when did you
Speaker 3: make a connection that not about your own attack being
Speaker 3: associated with the East Aia rapist, but when did you
Speaker 3: make the connection that this person may have been living,
Speaker 3: going to school, some of the conclusions that you come
Speaker 3: with later. When did you come to.
Speaker 5: This Well, you know, at the time that this stuff
Speaker 5: was going on, I had no idea that, of course,
Speaker 5: like everybody else, what he was going to become and
Speaker 5: how he would be to murders when he Like I said,
Speaker 5: it was a long haul where we heard about this
Speaker 5: guy for a couple of years and then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden it just stopped. So I went about my
Speaker 5: life for a while, and interestingly enough, I ended up
Speaker 5: knowing some people who were murdered, and of course no
Speaker 5: one had any idea who murdered them. It took the
Speaker 5: next twenty years approximately for people to connect that the
Speaker 5: East Area rapist and the original Nightstalker were one and
Speaker 5: the same guy. And I found that out probably in
Speaker 5: two thousand, two thousand and one, because I was watching
Speaker 5: TV one day while I was cleaning the house, and
Speaker 5: all of a sudden it came up on the screen
Speaker 5: and there were the pictures of people that I knew,
Speaker 5: and I was like, Holy that's when I realized that
Speaker 5: the guy hadn't gone away and hadn't gotten caught. He
Speaker 5: just continued on to be a serial killer. And that's
Speaker 5: when I went, oh God, and it was too scary.
Speaker 5: And then, I mean, for quite a few years after that,
Speaker 5: every time I looked up information or tried to learn
Speaker 5: about it, it was just too scary for me. It's
Speaker 5: very awful.
Speaker 3: Now you say it was too scary, but was there
Speaker 3: also some recognition that you may be close to realizing
Speaker 3: the proximity, the close proximity.
Speaker 5: Well, we have no proof really of where he came from.
Speaker 5: I mean, no one knows who he is, so they
Speaker 5: don't really know. It's a lot of speculation. But as
Speaker 5: I studied the cases and I studied what he did,
Speaker 5: and I studied where he came from, that he used
Speaker 5: waterways or different avenues to leave crime scenes. He rode
Speaker 5: a bicycle, he probably went on foot. I thought it
Speaker 5: was a very smart thing for him to do because
Speaker 5: while law enforcement was probably looking for him originally on
Speaker 5: the road, a lot of times, he wasn't anywhere on
Speaker 5: the road, so he was able to get away.
Speaker 3: Now, you basically did a re examination of this entire
Speaker 3: case using Larry Crompton's Sudden Terror book, Richard Shelby's Booking Cyclopath.
Speaker 5: Other Actually I hadn't read Richard's book until after I
Speaker 5: wrote mine. I had read Larry Crompton's book, and I thought, well, okay,
Speaker 5: at least that gave me some peace of mind about
Speaker 5: imagine that peace of mind over this case, just the details.
Speaker 5: I needed details. I wanted to know more about it
Speaker 5: because it hadn't been solved, And so I did read
Speaker 5: Larry's book, and of course I researched it every which
Speaker 5: way I could. But mostly what I did was look
Speaker 5: at maps and trace where the creek access where I
Speaker 5: grew up went, and how you could travel all along
Speaker 5: the access roads and creek accesses and so on, because
Speaker 5: I knew Sacramento really really well well. I grew up there.
Speaker 5: I walked everywhere. I went to a lot of the
Speaker 5: places that I'm sure that this guy had been to.
Speaker 5: So so I used moups and I looked it up.
Speaker 3: Now you also provide this this journey that you talk
Speaker 3: about as well of discovery, and I call it a
Speaker 3: re examination of this case. But I think you use
Speaker 3: the term biogeographical. It's like geographical profiling in terms of
Speaker 3: what you do, and you provide the photos for that
Speaker 3: as well, and the examples and the explanations of where
Speaker 3: this person could escape. For those people that don't know
Speaker 3: and don't know anything about East Air a rapist, you
Speaker 3: can tell us about some of the characteristics like the
Speaker 3: jumping over the fences, which is again described in both
Speaker 3: of those gentlemen, these detectives' books. But right, tell us
Speaker 3: what you thought. You obviously you look for escape routes,
Speaker 3: but the other ways that they did escape from gathered
Speaker 3: from the information that you looked at. So tell us
Speaker 3: what you found.
Speaker 5: Well, I you know the attacks that he did first,
Speaker 5: A lot of them, not all of them, but a
Speaker 5: lot of them were very close to levy roads, river
Speaker 5: access roads, you know, bike paths and things that were
Speaker 5: out there in the East area. He went down creek beds,
Speaker 5: and he just had scoped out the areas so well
Speaker 5: ahead of time. I mean, he stalked different areas. Actually
Speaker 5: geographically he looked at areas. I think it was really
Speaker 5: important to him what the geography looked like. It had
Speaker 5: to be all part of his scenario, and so he
Speaker 5: found those similarities in different neighborhoods when he started as
Speaker 5: the East Area rapist, when he went down to Contra
Speaker 5: Costa County, when he went down to the Bay areas,
Speaker 5: and also when he ended up in southern California going
Speaker 5: through the santas A Creek area. So a lot of
Speaker 5: the time, not all of the time, but a lot
Speaker 5: of the time that's what he used. So it was
Speaker 5: interesting to see how successful he was at that.
Speaker 3: So you're saying that what you do say in the
Speaker 3: book is that there's he grew up in a neighborhood
Speaker 3: very much like where you grew up, very very similar,
Speaker 3: and so began to understand and you do understand his
Speaker 3: mindset in terms of being able to get away, being
Speaker 3: able to blend into another neighborhood and obviously no one
Speaker 3: noticing anything untoward when they did see this person, So
Speaker 3: they had that ability, like you say, like a phantom. Ye,
Speaker 3: it's because of that his knowledge. And then you say
Speaker 3: when he moved to another part of California left that
Speaker 3: when you looked and you examined, you could totally read
Speaker 3: the DNA has the connection anyway, But you say, the
Speaker 3: most important thing was this comfort zone for him in
Speaker 3: this familiarity and similarity, wasn't it right?
Speaker 5: I think so. I think when he went to a neighborhood,
Speaker 5: it didn't matter really where it was located in California.
Speaker 5: The places that he went, when he saw the neighborhood
Speaker 5: that he was most comfort you know, had his most
Speaker 5: comfort in, he knew it. I mean, he could look
Speaker 5: around and go, Okay, this is it, this is where
Speaker 5: I want to be, and then he would pick out
Speaker 5: maybe the house or watch to see who you know
Speaker 5: inhabited the houses, and then pick out a victim. So
Speaker 5: I think that, you know, the geography was the driving
Speaker 5: factor in most of the cases. I think there were
Speaker 5: times he probably picked out a victim maybe at American
Speaker 5: River College in Sacramento, or and then figured out where
Speaker 5: they lived, if it was a condo or wherever it was.
Speaker 5: But I think that for the most part, in the
Speaker 5: majority of the cases that he ended up attacking and
Speaker 5: then actually murdering, a lot of the times it was
Speaker 5: the right geography. I think Manuela withten I don't know
Speaker 5: how to say her last name very well, but her neighborhood,
Speaker 5: in particular with the park across the street and the
Speaker 5: creek beds, there was also an easy escape when Janelle
Speaker 5: Cruz was murdered. That just there was a lot of
Speaker 5: similarities about what he saw, how he felt when he
Speaker 5: was in that neighborhood, and I really do think that
Speaker 5: the geography had a big part to play in where
Speaker 5: he went.
Speaker 3: Now you also basically profile this person as well, and
Speaker 3: you estimate and speculate of his age at a certain
Speaker 3: times or when this began. And then you also include,
Speaker 3: as Richard Shelby does, the Visalia Ransacker and for those
Speaker 3: listening East Area rapists one in the same with original
Speaker 3: Nightstalker because it predated Richard Ramirez known as the night Stalker,
Speaker 3: and this Viselia Ransacker from nineteen seventy four. So tell
Speaker 3: us what the feature was or the signature at that
Speaker 3: time early in the evolution as you say of this person,
Speaker 3: and why you include the Visili and why you're certain
Speaker 3: that they're all one and the same person.
Speaker 5: I'm not certain for this right well, I'm not certain
Speaker 5: that the Viceli Rundsacker had any connection. Really, nobody can
Speaker 5: prove it. Nobody has proven it. I don't know, but
Speaker 5: I did include it in the book because everyone talks
Speaker 5: about it. Is it connected? Is this the same guy,
Speaker 5: you know, So what we do is talk about, Gee,
Speaker 5: if it was the same guy, and we don't know,
Speaker 5: did what? What did he do? He was a peeper,
Speaker 5: he was He broke into people's houses, He took things
Speaker 5: that were not of any real value. It was just
Speaker 5: sort of it seemed like he was practicing. If it
Speaker 5: was in fact the same guy, And the timeframe for
Speaker 5: that and those attacks was in nineteen seventy four, in
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy six, and he six months after he left
Speaker 5: by Celia, he ended up in Sacramento. If that was
Speaker 5: really him, So we don't know, but I included it
Speaker 5: because it's a question that a lot of people ask.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of controversy and speculation about g did
Speaker 5: he start in seventy four and how old was he?
Speaker 5: And maybe he was just a kid. He was eighteen
Speaker 5: nineteen twenty years old.
Speaker 3: You include in your book too, some material that I
Speaker 3: wasn't aware of, unless somehow I missed this, but it
Speaker 3: is a very profound part of your book is the
Speaker 3: poem and the letter, the two page letter that you
Speaker 3: include that believed it was the East Area rapist and
Speaker 3: what was contained in there, especially about the sixth grade teacher.
Speaker 3: So and you clude this, you put this as part
Speaker 3: of an exhibit in your book, So tell us both.
Speaker 5: Like everyone else who writes about it, right, Yeah, he
Speaker 5: sent the letter Excitement Excitement's Crave to the media and
Speaker 5: they it's just one of the things that they've attached
Speaker 5: to him. One of my biggest questions was after reading it,
Speaker 5: g you know, I had a lot of us had
Speaker 5: a mean sixth grade teacher. I mean, I'm not alone
Speaker 5: in that. A lot of s did back then, a
Speaker 5: lot of male teachers back then, especially sixth grade teachers.
Speaker 5: But he talked about it in a way that was
Speaker 5: very frustrating for him, and he was just really irritated.
Speaker 5: And it really if it really is from the Easter
Speaker 5: a rapist, if it really was him, I thought, geez,
Speaker 5: you know it really there were so many things that
Speaker 5: made me feel like he came from the same neck
Speaker 5: of the woods that I did. And again, there's no proof.
Speaker 5: We don't know. Maybe he is from East Sacramento, maybe
Speaker 5: he's from Citrus Heights, I don't know. But I had
Speaker 5: the strongest feeling that I could just see this guy
Speaker 5: with the Morrison Creek a place to play where we
Speaker 5: used to play. As children, we all used to go
Speaker 5: down there and make rafts and catch pollywogs, and you know,
Speaker 5: so I can just see this guy back in the day,
Speaker 5: they didn't have any fences a lot of the time.
Speaker 5: At the backyards. You can see into people's houses. You
Speaker 5: can see into their yards from back at the creek beds,
Speaker 5: and you know, just the geography is one of the
Speaker 5: things that I still try to follow because even in
Speaker 5: the neighborhoods where he went, there were also schools, always schools,
Speaker 5: and creeks, and behind the school fences are houses and
Speaker 5: you can see into the backyards there. So it just
Speaker 5: seemed really realistic to me that he, you know, could
Speaker 5: have done exactly what we did as kids. And he's
Speaker 5: the same age group that I'm in, probably a little
Speaker 5: bit older.
Speaker 3: Now. How much as you examine this case, in this killer,
Speaker 3: let's unfortunately have to talk about his not only his
Speaker 3: mo which he seemed as you write and has been
Speaker 3: written before, that he can change that mo slightly. Neither
Speaker 3: smokes or he drinks, so some people thought, jeez, he
Speaker 3: brought some beer to the crime scene. He may have smoked,
Speaker 3: it looked like it. He left matches, but let's talk
Speaker 3: about the particulars that he evolved from again rapist to murderer.
Speaker 3: And then the challenge, it seemed, because what you write
Speaker 3: and was very interesting, is how you think he was
Speaker 3: affected by media reports, and especially by media reports concerning
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy.
Speaker 5: Tell us about that, right, Yeah, Well, I know a
Speaker 5: lot of serial killers follow the media attention that they
Speaker 5: get and read the articles and maybe learn from it
Speaker 5: or change their mo and apparently this gentleman. Early on
Speaker 5: it was said that he went after women alone, and
Speaker 5: then eventually he changed to including a male and a
Speaker 5: female in his attacks for his rates and pretty much
Speaker 5: stunned his nose that everybody, law enforcement included and said, oh,
Speaker 5: you think I'm just taking women down, but really I'm
Speaker 5: gonna I can do whatever I want. And so he,
Speaker 5: I think, enjoyed the fact that he could control two people,
Speaker 5: at least two people, and moved on from there. So
Speaker 5: he did change his mo based on what law enforcement
Speaker 5: said to media or what media reported, and eventually with
Speaker 5: the murders he did the same thing. There were adjustments
Speaker 5: that he made and what he did and whether he
Speaker 5: took a weapon with him or whether he left anything
Speaker 5: behind it. He started gathering shoelaces and things that he
Speaker 5: had used at the crime scenes and took it with him,
Speaker 5: including the weapons.
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Speaker 3: Now an, I wanted to talk about DNA and DNA,
Speaker 3: as we know, we've covered in this program many many times,
Speaker 3: and everyone knows DNA was nowhere, not even a thought
Speaker 3: back in the seventies, not much of a reality till
Speaker 3: early two thousands. So let's talk about what happened with
Speaker 3: DNA after this case went cold for many years in
Speaker 3: terms of we did talk about connecting the two east
Speaker 3: of the two series of crimes in different parts of California,
Speaker 3: So that's been done. But you also talk about in
Speaker 3: this book about the FBI once again joining in in
Speaker 3: the chase. So tell us about DNA and the FBI
Speaker 3: again in twenty sixteen joining this.
Speaker 5: Well, I'm not an expert on DNA, obviously, but I
Speaker 5: have tried to listen to everything I could get my
Speaker 5: hands on and read everything I can find about the
Speaker 5: advances that they've made over time, and it rapidly progressed
Speaker 5: from about two thousand and on to the point where
Speaker 5: they can probably tell a lot more about what this
Speaker 5: guy really looks like now. Back in the day, like
Speaker 5: were mentioning Ted Bundy when they were prosecuting him, they
Speaker 5: couldn't be one hundred percent sure that bite marks were
Speaker 5: made from his teeth, but now they I'm sure would
Speaker 5: be able to. They couldn't tell that hairs pulled from
Speaker 5: the masks that were probably his because they were like
Speaker 5: his hair and eye witnessed testimony. They weren't really one
Speaker 5: hundred percent sure, So there was nothing that they could
Speaker 5: definitively connect to Ted Bundy with DNA at the time.
Speaker 5: And I'm sure if the original Nightstalker followed Ted Bundy's
Speaker 5: crimes or Easter A rapists at the time, they were
Speaker 5: plastered reports or plastered over the Sacramento b papers and
Speaker 5: everywhere about Ted Bundy's crimes, and so he could read about,
Speaker 5: you know, what was going on, and I'm sure that
Speaker 5: he probably tried to be aware of anything that could
Speaker 5: possibly get him caught. But DNA's progressed so much since
Speaker 5: then that I know that if they ran any tests
Speaker 5: on the hairs from Ted Bundy and the white marks
Speaker 5: and stuff these days, they could say one hundred percent
Speaker 5: that it was him. They would have as DNA from
Speaker 5: saliva or anything that they got off the body or
Speaker 5: in the crime scenes, but back then they didn't have
Speaker 5: that ability.
Speaker 3: Right now, why the interest, why the renewed interest from
Speaker 3: the FBI, and why, well do they think they come
Speaker 3: to this?
Speaker 5: Well, what's interesting is is, you know, when I started
Speaker 5: researching this, it was probably about twenty thirteen, to the
Speaker 5: extent that I was really trying to figure out what
Speaker 5: had gone on and why they hadn't caught him yet,
Speaker 5: And that was really my only interest at first. And
Speaker 5: when finally I had heard that they were going to
Speaker 5: become involved again, it was twenty sixteen. So between when
Speaker 5: I started researching it and they made that announcement, I
Speaker 5: had begun writing my book, and when I started writing
Speaker 5: my book in it's probably the end of twenty fifteen,
Speaker 5: the FBI wasn't involved. The law enforcement people that I
Speaker 5: talked to in different counties didn't have cold case units.
Speaker 5: I said, well, what happens if somebody calls in a tip?
Speaker 5: You know, since you don't have a cold case unit,
Speaker 5: And they said, well, you know, we followed the tip.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, they're homicide detectives. That's what they do,
Speaker 5: but there was no formal you know, they don't have
Speaker 5: the money for cold case units. So it was an
Speaker 5: interesting thing for me to hear that the FBI was
Speaker 5: going to come back into it and they were offering
Speaker 5: a reward for information, and they have been actively involved
Speaker 5: in the last year. Yeah, these cases are still open.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 5: You know, it's interesting to see. The reason I think
Speaker 5: they're involved again is because they had solved through DNA
Speaker 5: a case back in New York. I believe it was
Speaker 5: from what I understand, and they thought, well, gee, maybe
Speaker 5: we can solve this case through DNA, and so they're
Speaker 5: trying to do that.
Speaker 3: You do include a case of Derek Lee Todd, a
Speaker 3: serial killer, and how some advances are you say, a
Speaker 3: re examination of the DNA evidence or any forensic evidence
Speaker 3: now many years later has yielded these kinds of results right.
Speaker 5: Well, in his particular case, I think that eyewitnessed the
Speaker 5: accounts originally thought that he was a Caucasian man and
Speaker 5: they were completely wrong and he ended up being an
Speaker 5: African American. So it was an interesting case to look
Speaker 5: at DNA because when they did, they discovered that he
Speaker 5: was African American. They were looking for the wrong race altogether.
Speaker 5: So I included that because they really did, they were
Speaker 5: able to say by then through.
Speaker 3: This bio.
Speaker 5: I'm trying to remember the name of it that doctor
Speaker 5: Freudacus had created where they can actually tell now they
Speaker 5: have it to ancestry and all these other places where
Speaker 5: you can tell where you came from, and you can
Speaker 5: tell what you look like, and you know all the
Speaker 5: different characteristics. And he even said that eventually you might
Speaker 5: as well just throw your driver's license on the floor,
Speaker 5: because eventually they're going to know who did what immediately
Speaker 5: from DNA and DNA profiling.
Speaker 3: No, now we again, I got to ask you for
Speaker 3: some of the details of this because again we can't
Speaker 3: don't have time to go through all the murders unfortunately,
Speaker 3: but there are some features that you outline and hear
Speaker 3: that include everything, all the information that you've gotten. I
Speaker 3: think it's important to include this signature that this rapist
Speaker 3: killer having the husband there, dragging her the woman to
Speaker 3: another room. Some of the features him talking in the
Speaker 3: other room, mentioning his mother tell us. Just take one example,
Speaker 3: even the murder of doctor Robert Offerman and doctor Deborah Manning,
Speaker 3: just some of the pictures that no forced entry, some
Speaker 3: of those things. To describe what this killer did just
Speaker 3: for example.
Speaker 5: Well, in that particular case, I don't know that it's
Speaker 5: I don't think he was able to actually put into
Speaker 5: practice what he normally did as normal routine, because he
Speaker 5: ended up shooting both of them. I think that he
Speaker 5: had a hard time keeping them under control. Possibly, I'm
Speaker 5: not sure, because he ended up shooting them, so it
Speaker 5: didn't look like he was able to create the same
Speaker 5: environment that he typically liked. I think he was more
Speaker 5: able to control from that point on, from the Smith
Speaker 5: murders in nineteen eighty on, to do what he wanted
Speaker 5: to do. The only other exception would be Greg Sanchez
Speaker 5: apparently fought and went after him too, and that was
Speaker 5: in the Sanchez Domingo murders. But he did maintain trying
Speaker 5: to use couples as his victims. He ended up a
Speaker 5: couple of the women at the end were alone, and
Speaker 5: so he did have the last two murders were women alone.
Speaker 5: He did features Sorry, go ahead, I was just going
Speaker 5: to say. When he was doing the rapes and Sacramento,
Speaker 5: he would put dishes on the mail's back and tell
Speaker 5: him if he heard the rattle, he would bring a finger,
Speaker 5: or bring a piece of their or kill the person
Speaker 5: in the other room, his wife or a significant other.
Speaker 5: So he did do those kinds of things so that
Speaker 5: he could hear if anybody moved to try to control
Speaker 5: the scene.
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned March nineteen eighty, let's talk about that. Then,
Speaker 3: Lyman Smith forty three, wife Charlene thirty three, beaten to
Speaker 3: death in their bedroom. So when he has the time,
Speaker 3: what does he do, What does he use as a weapon.
Speaker 5: Well, it appears that he would use whatever weapon was
Speaker 5: there that was an opportunity for him. In the particular
Speaker 5: case of the Smith murders, he had probably scoped out
Speaker 5: the house and realized that there was a log pile
Speaker 5: right outside the bedroom, and he used a log to
Speaker 5: beat them, to bludgeon them. He probably I say also
Speaker 5: too that I think that he got some of these
Speaker 5: ideas from Ted Bundy. There was a murder that Ted
Speaker 5: did that was real similar in using a fireplace log.
Speaker 5: He also in the Janelle Cruz murder, ended up she
Speaker 5: ended up. Basically, it was a really gruesome scene and
Speaker 5: he overkilled, but she ended up laying across the bed diagonal.
Speaker 5: And it's one of the things that was apparent in
Speaker 5: the Chiamega murders with Ted Bundy, so you know he
Speaker 5: didn't really he used to bring a gun and a flashlight.
Speaker 5: Those kinds of things are a knife, but the thing
Speaker 5: that he killed with changed depending on the scene.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about something will take you back to
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one. You say there was a man in
Speaker 3: a van and another man, and the blonde haired man
Speaker 3: ran after you and chased you, and certainly you already
Speaker 3: intuitively knew something was up, so instinctively you start running
Speaker 3: before the actual chase, and so luckily he could get away.
Speaker 3: You get that much of a distance and then you
Speaker 3: did the right thing. Then in your examination, in this
Speaker 3: re examination that is your book, Murder on His Mind,
Speaker 3: Serial Killer, you talk about Larry Crompton and some reports
Speaker 3: about two people being involved in prior incidences that you
Speaker 3: talk about the two days before an attack. Tell us
Speaker 3: about what you found regarding two men.
Speaker 5: Well, it has been mentioned by Detective Shelby as well,
Speaker 5: the possibility that there were two people seen running from
Speaker 5: different crime scenes or different burglaries, that kind of thing,
Speaker 5: and also it was repeated in the Maggiori murders in
Speaker 5: round of Cordova, that there were two suspects and then
Speaker 5: all of a sudden they seem to have vanished, meaning
Speaker 5: now all of a sudden they say it's just one guy.
Speaker 5: And so I was curious about that. And I'm not
Speaker 5: saying too that the men who chased me had anything
Speaker 5: to do with the East Area rapists. We have no
Speaker 5: clue who they were. I just found it interesting that
Speaker 5: the guy who did chase me and the person in
Speaker 5: the truck there was an age difference between the guy driving.
Speaker 5: That's all I could tell you. It is an impression
Speaker 5: of the guy being older. The guy who chased me
Speaker 5: looked very much like a composite that eventually I was
Speaker 5: to see and I thought, wow, this is really odd
Speaker 5: that he looks a lot like the guy who chased me.
Speaker 5: And back in those days, I mean, we were just
Speaker 5: teenagers and the guy who chased me was young. But
Speaker 5: so I have no clue who chased me in whether
Speaker 5: it was connected at all. I just thought, wow, this
Speaker 5: is really weird, you know, because the guy could run
Speaker 5: so fast and was, by the way, I was on
Speaker 5: the track team, so that probably helped me too. Sure,
Speaker 5: but yeah, you know, I have no idea if the
Speaker 5: two gentlemen who chased me that day were connected with
Speaker 5: the Easter A rapists, but it does repeat the descriptions
Speaker 5: of two people several times over time by different detectives.
Speaker 5: So I just found that very curious and interesting.
Speaker 3: And as such, you theorize. Again, no one knows, but
Speaker 3: you're entitled to theorize, and you have good reason to
Speaker 3: be able to put things together and make inferences. So
Speaker 3: tell us what you think might have been the reason
Speaker 3: why there was two and how do you think these
Speaker 3: two people are related?
Speaker 5: Well, I, you know, it's interesting. I thought, well, gee,
Speaker 5: you know, is it a far stretch to think that
Speaker 5: if it was two guys and there was an age
Speaker 5: gap between them, that it's an older brother and a
Speaker 5: younger brother that started out together, just kind of trying to,
Speaker 5: I don't know, break into house, is what if was
Speaker 5: the case? And then it got entirely too serious and
Speaker 5: one of them continued on and the other one didn't.
Speaker 5: I just tried to look at every I try to
Speaker 5: be open minded about the possibilities and where this guy
Speaker 5: came from and why they did what they did, or
Speaker 5: whether it was just one person. So you know, I
Speaker 5: don't know. The jury's still out so to speak on
Speaker 5: whether it was one person or two in the beginning.
Speaker 5: I think it eventually evolved to be just one person
Speaker 5: if there had been two in the beginning. So that's
Speaker 5: just my thought.
Speaker 3: You also include information like that, according to Shelby, you
Speaker 3: spoke of East Area rapist calling one of his victims
Speaker 3: for a minute. What could he have said and what
Speaker 3: did they experience in terms of anything noteworthy voice wise,
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 5: As I don't know as much about the particulars on
Speaker 5: the phone calls. I know that he called people before
Speaker 5: he attacked. I know he called people after he attacked.
Speaker 5: I know, back in the day a lot of people
Speaker 5: did do crank calls. That was back when you only
Speaker 5: had a landline. A lot of the kids got bored.
Speaker 5: They would do, you know, call people up and do
Speaker 5: stupid stuff, or they would you know, say weird things
Speaker 5: or mean things like about you know, I'm in are
Speaker 5: you in the house alone? I can see you that
Speaker 5: kind of thing. I mean, so that wasn't unusual. But
Speaker 5: I know that they have his voice recorded, and I
Speaker 5: know that that has to be authentic. But again, there
Speaker 5: were so many people who did those kinds of crank
Speaker 5: calls back in the day, right, you know, it's hard
Speaker 5: to say who did what and whether who's the EASTERI
Speaker 5: rapist and who isn't.
Speaker 3: So you include Leslie d Ambrosia, Florida Department of Law
Speaker 3: Enforcement a criminal investigation analysis you included how much did
Speaker 3: it reinforce what you were thinking?
Speaker 5: Well, it's well, you know, the society in general, I mean,
Speaker 5: has learned so much about serial killers in the last
Speaker 5: thirty years. I mean once, once upon a time they
Speaker 5: thought that they didn't stop, but BTK and others have
Speaker 5: proved that to be incorrect. They'd stopped for twenty thirty
Speaker 5: years sometimes. And so what was interesting about her analysis
Speaker 5: and was that it was done and it was sometime
Speaker 5: after nineteen eighty six because they had well what they
Speaker 5: did was they knew eventually that quite a few of
Speaker 5: the murders were connected, and so they contacted Leslie de
Speaker 5: Ambrosia for and in depth. It's like fifteen pages long
Speaker 5: that tells what her impressions were based on all the
Speaker 5: information that she knew at the time. So you know,
Speaker 5: she talks about how they all the murder victims died
Speaker 5: as a result of excessive beatings to the head with
Speaker 5: blunt force instruments, and talks about how they were tied
Speaker 5: and and it also talks about who she thought the
Speaker 5: guy was, what he was like, you know, what motivated
Speaker 5: him and so on, and what did you take.
Speaker 3: Sorry, what did you take away in terms of your
Speaker 3: comparison the person that you you thought in your mind,
Speaker 3: this brother team that you even say in the book
Speaker 3: that you thought at one time it might be somebody
Speaker 3: that you sort of knew. So what did this report do,
Speaker 3: this profiling that she does, this analysis, What did it
Speaker 3: do to confirm what you say.
Speaker 5: I don't think that I actually knew anybody that I
Speaker 5: think that it's possible we went to the same schools,
Speaker 5: but not that I really actually knew who this person was.
Speaker 5: But you never know. But in her comparisons, you know,
Speaker 5: basically she thinks the same thing I do. As far
Speaker 5: as the geography, I've spoken to several people who actually
Speaker 5: think that's a pretty solid piece of information, that the
Speaker 5: geography was important. But let's see, I'm looking for something
Speaker 5: to quote for you here. He would be further described
Speaker 5: as manipulative, a chronic liar, unremorseful. I've put some profiles
Speaker 5: in there, and some diagnoses actually of conduct disorder, things
Speaker 5: like that. He does not suffer from delusions where there's
Speaker 5: no sense of reality, and he would know the difference
Speaker 5: between right and wrong. But he was very methodical and
Speaker 5: he took care in the murders, in particular not to
Speaker 5: get blood spatter on himself after the first After the
Speaker 5: Smith murders, he planned his attacks very carefully, with great
Speaker 5: attention to detail. He probably rehearsed his attacks either literally
Speaker 5: or in you know, in a fantasy. That's like what
Speaker 5: VTK did. I mean, he was all into fantasy. He
Speaker 5: basically looked at every phase of his crime. I mean,
Speaker 5: the weapons he would use, transportation, travel, roots, just all
Speaker 5: kinds of different things were pre planned. So it talks about,
Speaker 5: you know that he enjoyed inflicting pain, and it just
Speaker 5: goes on to really give you an in depth analysis
Speaker 5: of who they think this guy is.
Speaker 3: Now you also talk about again the comparison of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: but more so the idea that the killer and rapist
Speaker 3: that Bundy becomes, he emulates that in a lot of
Speaker 3: ways you compare him to in terms of what he
Speaker 3: did and overkill and with weapons like logs, like after
Speaker 3: and you say, right after certain things are reported, he strikes. Accordingly,
Speaker 3: tell us a little bit more about these connections that
Speaker 3: you found.
Speaker 5: I want to understand exactly what the last part of
Speaker 5: your question was.
Speaker 3: Well, you were talking about certain certain events that were
Speaker 3: reported about Ted Bundy, and then as a result, East
Speaker 3: Area rapist would respond.
Speaker 5: Right, well, what's interesting. You know, I don't know how
Speaker 5: closely the timelines follow with Ted Bundy. I just know
Speaker 5: that when you look at what was being written about
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy in the newspapers, it was during the same
Speaker 5: timeframe that this perpetrator had started to also rape and
Speaker 5: do all the things he was doing. And I also
Speaker 5: know that when I read about the Chiomega murders with
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy and what he did to some of the
Speaker 5: victims there, it sounded so similar to what the original
Speaker 5: night Stucker did, in particular in Janelle Cruz's case at
Speaker 5: the very end that was his last attack after being
Speaker 5: quiet for five years, and it was so overkill, and
Speaker 5: it really did sound like what I've read about what
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy did to his victims in that case, and
Speaker 5: so I thought, wow, this is amazingly similar. And I'm
Speaker 5: sure that when you I mean, you bludgeon someone, you know,
Speaker 5: it's similar, but it's just the way that he left
Speaker 5: the bodies, just everything about it. And what was interesting
Speaker 5: to me too was the date that he came out
Speaker 5: of his five year retirement there and he showed up
Speaker 5: on the same day that The Deliberate Stranger was on television,
Speaker 5: and that was the movie about Ted Bundy. And this
Speaker 5: guy comes out of nowhere and attacks Janelle Cruise like
Speaker 5: that within twelve hours of that movie being shown on
Speaker 5: national television. It's found it really odd.
Speaker 3: Well, I think they lends credibility. That's why I mentioned
Speaker 3: it as a question to you, because I think it
Speaker 3: lends a lot of credibility to be falling around well
Speaker 3: arguably the most famous serial killer of all. And will
Speaker 3: be noted that next year, Zac Efron will play Ted
Speaker 3: Bundy in a movie. So even Hollywood's got that idea.
Speaker 3: So why wouldn't do it this? Pardon me?
Speaker 5: I said, they needed to do it again, right, sure,
Speaker 5: find another kind of play Bundy.
Speaker 3: Of course, and at the time they chose Mark Harmon.
Speaker 3: He is sort of the equivalent of Zach Effron, the
Speaker 3: boy next door or the good guy, so they had
Speaker 3: to play that, so, and certainly it is feasible that
Speaker 3: he could follow Bundy like the nordoriety, really enjoy the
Speaker 3: notoriety like Bundy, but yet just hold off getting caught
Speaker 3: and you know, electrocuted. So well, what was interesting things?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well what was interesting about Ted Bundy is he
Speaker 5: really it's amazing he didn't get caught sooner. But his
Speaker 5: crime scenes were he dumped the bodies everywhere this original Nightstocker,
Speaker 5: he controlled the scene. He picked out what his crime
Speaker 5: scene was going to be, and it was in a
Speaker 5: home and that gave him privacy, and so he he
Speaker 5: really did take a look. If he was looking at
Speaker 5: what Ted did, he said, Okay, here's what I need
Speaker 5: to do differently, because I'm not going to get caught.
Speaker 5: I'm the guy who's not going to get caught. And
Speaker 5: so he really did analyze what he needed to do
Speaker 5: to be the guy that didn't get caught.
Speaker 3: And also, as you go along in that vein, is
Speaker 3: that when Bundy, as some people say, went from organized
Speaker 3: to disorganized when he went into this frenzy when he
Speaker 3: went to Florida and two in one day and really
Speaker 3: wasn't very careful at all or methodical and seemed much
Speaker 3: different killer that this guy wanted to have that as
Speaker 3: his feature was control and whenever he lost control, he learned.
Speaker 5: From that, didn't he Yeah, he did, yep.
Speaker 3: And made adjustment supportingly.
Speaker 5: If he's still alive. And he actually did decide that
Speaker 5: after nineteen eighty six he had to not do this
Speaker 5: anymore because it would be better for him if he
Speaker 5: wants to remain free. He decided not to do this anymore,
Speaker 5: and he probably got married or maybe a few times
Speaker 5: had kids. I mean, like BTK, did he settled down
Speaker 5: like some of them do, and you think they're your
Speaker 5: next door neighbor and they're a nice guy. You know
Speaker 5: he fits in?
Speaker 3: Sure, sure, And your theory is again no one knows.
Speaker 3: But your theory is that he is still alive. And
Speaker 3: the reason why there's still hope in this case is
Speaker 3: what well, I still well.
Speaker 5: I think that because of the DNA analysis and the
Speaker 5: ability to track, you know, to discard different people who
Speaker 5: are persons of interest and go, Okay, it's not him,
Speaker 5: and they just keep going through the lists or going
Speaker 5: through who they find to be a worthy suspect. I
Speaker 5: think that they really are pushing hard to try to
Speaker 5: solve it, So that's the hope. But I don't know.
Speaker 5: I think that statistically from what I heard, I think
Speaker 5: the FBI was saying that there's statistically about a ninety
Speaker 5: two percent chance that he's still alive. And if he is,
Speaker 5: then you know, obviously, if we keep pushing on the case,
Speaker 5: he'll be found. But he also, here's the flip side
Speaker 5: of that, he could never be found. We may never
Speaker 5: know who this man is. We may never ever know,
Speaker 5: and so you know, that's that's the bad part of
Speaker 5: the mystery.
Speaker 3: So in this investigation, I don't want to criticize anyway,
Speaker 3: but how much do you think any law enforcement agency
Speaker 3: cares about this case? Are those? Are there people in
Speaker 3: the FBI or otherwise that this still has a hold
Speaker 3: on other thinks?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 5: I think there are. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 5: people out there who are working really hard. There's detectives
Speaker 5: in Orange County, the DA's down there, There's people in
Speaker 5: every county that he struck in that really do care
Speaker 5: and really have this case on their mind. They really
Speaker 5: do want to solve it. So, yes, I think that
Speaker 5: there's a lot of different people, not just retired law enforcement,
Speaker 5: but and then there's also a lot of people like
Speaker 5: me who are trying really hard to figure out or
Speaker 5: you know, where is he from? Where is he now? What?
Speaker 5: You know, how do we find him? And so, and
Speaker 5: it's kind of scary. I mean, you know, this is
Speaker 5: a case that scared me to death for a long time.
Speaker 5: And the only reason I talk about it is because
Speaker 5: I think that, well, for a long time, there wasn't
Speaker 5: a lot of publicity. Now there's quite a lot in
Speaker 5: the last couple of years, which is not a bad thing.
Speaker 5: It's almost like this guy he was never talked about.
Speaker 5: They talked about everybody but this guy, and so now
Speaker 5: it's his turn to be sort of under the microscope.
Speaker 5: And again, because of DNA advances, they really did feel
Speaker 5: that they could solve it the FBI. So yes, there's
Speaker 5: a lot of dedicated people still on it.
Speaker 3: And as you mentioned too, I was surprised, or I'm
Speaker 3: not surprised, I guess I just wasn't aware of the
Speaker 3: legions of people that are interested in this case to
Speaker 3: this day. And they could say this resurgence of the
Speaker 3: case and importance it would seem is very very encouraging
Speaker 3: and very welcome, I would say, because if the story
Speaker 3: like the Zodiac had become where so many people can
Speaker 3: be aware of that story. This one has all the
Speaker 3: elements that Zodiac has in terms of interest and certainly
Speaker 3: compelling case for many many, many people spoke.
Speaker 5: The difference is that he is more deadly than the Zoe.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and he really, you know, he really could
Speaker 5: still be out there enjoying his life, and you know,
Speaker 5: he really the people that he murdered, they deserve to
Speaker 5: be here. The people that he took their lives from
Speaker 5: had families and people who cared about them, and they
Speaker 5: deserve to know.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. That's an important case for a lot of people,
Speaker 3: and I applaud you for your effort to add in
Speaker 3: a big way to that, to try to find out
Speaker 3: who this is.
Speaker 5: Right and And really the reality for me is in
Speaker 5: getting this book out here. And I kind of rushed
Speaker 5: this one out the door really quickly because I, you know,
Speaker 5: the the law enforcement people who investigated this case so
Speaker 5: long ago are getting older. A lot of the people
Speaker 5: that you want to interview or talk to are getting older,
Speaker 5: and so for me, all of a sudden, I was
Speaker 5: in a hurry. I had no idea I wanted to
Speaker 5: even write the book, and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 5: I was writing the book, and like I said, it
Speaker 5: was I felt compelled to do so. But to get
Speaker 5: the word out basically was my intention here, to honor
Speaker 5: the victims and their families, to just add my two
Speaker 5: cents as it were, about where I think he could
Speaker 5: have come from, whether or not you might know him.
Speaker 5: Whoever's out there listening, who knows a guy that could
Speaker 5: fit the descriptions or the information that I've put in
Speaker 5: this book and of course the other books that are
Speaker 5: out there too, and just try to have people open
Speaker 5: their minds to you know, he maybe he isn't from
Speaker 5: the East Sacramento, maybe he's from over here, or you know,
Speaker 5: there's there's a lot of speculation on this case and
Speaker 5: a lot of people are trying to figure out what fits.
Speaker 5: I just I hope that you know, if somebody knows
Speaker 5: someone that fits this description, they might call the FBI
Speaker 5: or call somebody that can help.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I want to again applaud you for this and
Speaker 3: for those that might want to contact you or find
Speaker 3: out about this work. Is there a facebook page website?
Speaker 3: Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 5: There is a Facebook page for and Pen. There's also
Speaker 5: a WordPress site and pen thirteen at WordPress. There's also
Speaker 5: an email address and pen thirteen at gmail dot com.
Speaker 5: So there's places that you can go and inquire and
Speaker 5: certainly the books available a couple different places as well.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I am writing another as well. Okay, tell us
Speaker 3: about that, tell us about that book.
Speaker 5: I don't want to get into it at the moment
Speaker 5: because it's but I am writing something more.
Speaker 3: So, like I said, yes, absolutely, okay, well great, well,
Speaker 3: we look forward to you being able to tell us
Speaker 3: some information about that now. We look forward to that.
Speaker 3: I want to thank you very much and for coming
Speaker 3: on and talking about Murder on his Mind, serial Killer.
Speaker 3: It has been fascinating. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me. I truly appreciate that.
Speaker 3: Well, it's been my pleasure. Thank you very much, and
Speaker 3: hope to talk to you again soon about it.
Speaker 5: Sounds good this book.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Good night, good night,