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True Murder with your 57 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:50.240 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening Murder. 58 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.960 On his Mind. Serial Killer is the true crime story 59 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:57.960 of the Original Nightstalker aka East Area rapist, who first 60 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.680 terrorized Rancho Cordova Sacramento areas in northern California as a 61 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:07.080 serial rapist. Moving on to Southern California, he became the 62 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:11.120 serial killer and rapist he had worked to become. The 63 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.039 original night Stalker carried out the murders of at least 64 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:18.800 twelve people in and around southern California. The serial rapist 65 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.520 and murderer moved about freely as law enforcement has been 66 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.439 able to catch a break and have to this date 67 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:29.680 been unable to apprehend him. A very deadly criminalist man 68 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:33.400 was prepared to do whatever it took to be free. 69 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.520 Many active and retired law enforcements still worked the case 70 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:40.439 that had been come cold. The fbis once again joined 71 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:43.000 in the chase. It has been forty years since the 72 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.400 first known attacks in northern California. It has been thirty 73 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:48.879 years since the last senseless murder of a young woman 74 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:52.400 in Irvine, California. How much longer will the families have 75 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:55.520 to wait for justice in this case? Will we ever 76 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:58.840 match the DNA to a name? Will we ever see 77 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.400 who has been un the mask? The book that we're 78 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.599 featuring this evening is Murder on His Mind Serial Killer, 79 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:10.800 with my special guest, author and Pen Welcome to the program, 80 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:12.840 and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. 81 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:15.680 And Penn, thank you. 82 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.199 So much for having me. I appreciate it. 83 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:20.800 Thank you very much. This is one of the most 84 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:24.920 captivating crimes in US history, So thank you very much 85 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.680 for this very very unique perspective. Now let's get right 86 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:33.600 to how you came to be the author of this book, 87 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.199 Why you wanted to write Murder on His Mind, Serial Killer, 88 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:40.120 Why it was important to you, tell us about your background, 89 00:04:40.879 --> 00:04:43.079 and why you wanted to write this book. Why was 90 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:44.199 it important to you? 91 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.959 Well, ultimately it became extremely important to me, and as 92 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.759 I go through this whole journey, it has actually become 93 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:57.720 even more important. I am from Sacramento, which is where 94 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:03.639 these crimes began in nineteen seventy six, and I was 95 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:08.120 working downtown Capitol Mall, so I was around the entire time. 96 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.240 He was attacking all over Sacramento, mostly in the East part, 97 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.279 and I kept telling myself, well, he's an East Sacramento 98 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:18.160 so I should be okay. And I kept wondering, Tea, 99 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:22.199 are they going to catch them? And they didn't. Eventually 100 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.560 he went away, but I didn't know that he hadn't 101 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:28.000 been caught. But this is a case that kept coming 102 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.839 up for me over and over again, unfortunately, and it 103 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.639 was not on my list of things to write about. 104 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.759 Sort of became a compelling thing to do. 105 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:47.800 Tell us about your early life in Sacramento and the 106 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.519 neighborhood that you lived in, and also include the time 107 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:52.560 we're talking about nineteen seventy six, and some of our 108 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:56.120 audiences younger. We always have to remind them to keep 109 00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:58.800 the context of this and as you provide in the book, 110 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.360 the times what were they like? And everybody talks about 111 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:05.199 a more innocent time, But tell us, as you do, 112 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:09.079 how you grew up in the neighborhood and your early life. 113 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:09.839 What was it like. 114 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:14.560 Well, in the early when I was born at Meath, 115 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:17.399 the Air Force based. Interestingly enough, there were a lot 116 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:21.399 of different connections that way to Sacramento girl that I was, 117 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.839 and I went to all the neighborhood schools in the 118 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:30.079 South area. Back then, they were building all the sort 119 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.279 of like the back to the Future time frames that 120 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:35.519 you see in the film. In the fifties, they were 121 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.759 just building houses left, right and sideways because the baby 122 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.279 boomers were having three and four kids apiece, and so 123 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.680 all the fields were being transformed into neighborhoods. Larchmont living 124 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.439 is what I call it. And so all of a 125 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.959 sudden there was just all this gross and it was 126 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:57.199 pretty quiet really, because these were all new neighborhoods. There 127 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:01.759 were cows and fields nearby. None of the freeways that 128 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:04.839 you see down there today were completed yet, other than 129 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:09.360 Highway ninety nine and frontage roads. You step to drive 130 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.639 Frontage Road to get from South sax to Folsome Lake 131 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:17.079 through Rancho Cordova. So it was a different time, and 132 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.199 people were not worried about kids running around in the 133 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.639 neighborhood and being out all day and gone and come 134 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:26.839 back for dinner or come back when it's dark. So 135 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.079 that's pretty much how it was. 136 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:35.319 Right now, you say that you never lived in fear, 137 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.399 You never as part of the rest of the society. 138 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.120 You trusted people, and you didn't imagine any kind of 139 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:48.759 horrible thing happening to you. But now, despite that, in 140 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.240 nineteen seventy one, you had an incident. So, as you 141 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:54.720 do describe in the book, tell us about this incident 142 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.279 that changed everything for you in that way. 143 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.639 Well, I had at the time, being a fourteen year 144 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.680 old in seventy one, I was still not allowed to 145 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.480 go too far off my block when it's starting to 146 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:10.120 get dark outside. But I had gone kind of a 147 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.240 little farther away and was on my way home and 148 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:17.560 it was starting to get dark, and all of a 149 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:21.480 sudden had this terrible feeling something bad was going to happen, 150 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:26.399 And amazingly enough, my instincts told me to run. And 151 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.279 if I hadn't run, I probably would have gotten caught 152 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:32.759 by two men who were in a truck who ran 153 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.960 or who were following me and actually ended up chasing me. 154 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:40.519 One of them jumped out of the truck and started 155 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:43.360 chasing me down the street, and I thought, my god, 156 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:45.000 I can't get home. I'm too far away. 157 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:46.399 What do I do? 158 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.879 And so I ended up running up to a friend's house, 159 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.639 hoping they were home, and I put myself between the 160 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.440 screen door and the front door. And that was also 161 00:08:55.480 --> 00:08:58.639 a good choice because that made the guy chasing me 162 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.120 stop cold in his trap. And I started banging on 163 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.679 the door and yelling, you know, open the door, somebody's 164 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.759 chasing me, and he just stood there. I glanced over 165 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:11.360 my shoulder, and what was amazing to me in retrospect 166 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.919 was that he just sort of stood there like he 167 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.679 wasn't concerned that anyone was going to see him. He 168 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:19.639 was just waiting to see if someone's going to answer 169 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:22.039 the door, and if they weren't, he was ready to, 170 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:25.840 you know, complete whatever he was going to do. And 171 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.120 luckily someone was home and they did let me in. 172 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.519 But back in the day, once again, whoever this was, 173 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.799 they didn't leave. They got back in the truck. We 174 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.399 looked out the window, kind of peeked out of one 175 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.039 of the windows. It was a friend of mine and 176 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:45.759 her mother, and we looked out the window and they 177 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.279 were just sitting there like they weren't concerned about a 178 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.919 license plate being written down, or they weren't gonna They 179 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.679 were contemplating what they should do, and I think probably 180 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:57.480 they decided that coming into the house was a bad idea. 181 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:01.840 So it was really the most frightened I think I've 182 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.240 ever been in my life. 183 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.240 Now, just a product of the times, a different, different 184 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.759 system and people looking at things differently. What did those 185 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.240 people do in respond in terms of calling police? And 186 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:19.120 then later when you recounted a story to your parents, 187 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.919 what did they do to report to the police. 188 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:28.200 Well, everyone did. Everybody did absolutely nothing, amazingly enough. You know, 189 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.519 I still had no idea, you know, she maybe we 190 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.000 should call the police. I was just sort of like, oh, 191 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:35.320 this is a horrible, awful thing that happened. I called 192 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:38.240 my mother and I told her, and she sent my 193 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:41.200 dad out front without telling him what had happened. She 194 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.679 sent him out front to watch for me to run home. 195 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.480 Probably an hour after this occurred. But we didn't tell 196 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.000 my father because I didn't want to get in trouble 197 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:53.200 for being out too far away from home and Also, 198 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.600 my neighbor never called the police either, So it was 199 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:01.120 sort of a conspiracy of silence back then away because 200 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:03.840 those are things we didn't talk about. Those were things 201 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.159 we just didn't at least in this particular instance. In 202 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:10.759 our neighborhood, people didn't pick up the phone and call 203 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:12.960 when weird things happened. 204 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.279 So you you had a you say, you had a 205 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.600 pretty good look at the guy chasing you, relatively, but 206 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.240 you didn't really get a good look at the driver whatsoever. 207 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:29.080 So tell us what would the basic description of what 208 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:32.559 you did? What did you see in terms of this perpetrator? 209 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:35.759 What was the description you would have for the rest 210 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.480 of your life imprinted in your mind? And then how 211 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.000 did you feel after this attack? Like I say, you write, 212 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.039 did it everything changed? Well? How did it change? How 213 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:46.799 did your behavior? Right? 214 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.840 Well, I was a lot more careful. I all of 215 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.840 a sudden it was scary to be out in the dark, 216 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:56.120 or it was a you know, scary experience to be 217 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:59.919 too far away and to always be real careful. I've 218 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.679 I'm careful ever since about where I go, what I do, 219 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.320 whether I get in my car, I look in my car, 220 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:07.559 I have my keys in my hand when I'm ready 221 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:09.600 to get in the car. I mean, just everything changed, 222 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:14.200 and it was such a frightening experience. Amazingly enough, it 223 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:17.759 was something that I didn't talk about, probably for the 224 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:22.080 next thirty five years or so. I never I had 225 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.000 a description of the guy with nobody to tell. I 226 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.600 never talked about it because it was some you know, 227 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:32.639 frightening experience that I didn't want to discuss, I guess, 228 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.759 and I couldn't babysit after that. I was too afraid 229 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.159 to be in a house that I wasn't aware of 230 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.120 my surroundings, you know what I mean, right, So it 231 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:44.960 just was such a terrifying experience. 232 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.960 I can't tell you now as you do in the 233 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:55.159 book You start because it is important. November fourth, nineteen 234 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.559 seventy six, and this is a story that was extensively 235 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.080 reported with reported on by the Sacramento b So he 236 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:08.080 cite this news article man hunted a suspect in eight 237 00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:12.759 rapes and they talk about the first well, the first 238 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.159 report that you put in the book. So tell us 239 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.919 about again. We won't talk about what you were thinking 240 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.799 about in nineteen seventy six, five years after your attack, 241 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.320 because it's just we will explain that a little bit later. 242 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.799 But let's talk about what was reported. What was known. 243 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:31.919 You mentioned Richard Shelby. He has been on the show 244 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.200 before with talking about his book Hunting a Psychopath, So 245 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:41.120 let's talk about this first report. What's in there? Talk 246 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:41.519 about that. 247 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.399 Well, basically, apparently there was a blackout with news media 248 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:49.519 for the first I think it was eight months, and 249 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:51.720 nobody put anything in the paper. I think they were 250 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.519 worried that they would maybe scare them off or I 251 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.919 don't know what they're thinking was exactly at the time, 252 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.720 but they didn't tell the public that this had been occurring. 253 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:07.120 And it came up at a meeting one of those 254 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.080 meetings with about five hundred people at del Dale's School, 255 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.440 and Carol Daily was there and she had to answer 256 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.480 questions about the fact that there'd been a rapist out 257 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:23.399 there attacking people and no one had really mourned the public. Basically, 258 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.720 they had this okay, sorry, go ahead, no go ahead. 259 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:38.960 So continue what in terms of this, why the explanation 260 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.840 for why they suppressed this information, and what was the 261 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.159 information now that they were released into the public, and 262 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:49.720 what kind of cautionary steps were they outlining for people. 263 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.080 Well, they asked the news Needa to hold back on 264 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:56.840 reporting the case because they thought the publicity would ruin 265 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:01.480 stakeouts basically, So it came to light at this meeting 266 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.639 and the Sheriff's department had to answer questions about what 267 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.639 was going on. So they did at that meeting go 268 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.720 into it extensively about the fact that he wore a mask, 269 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.320 and they talked about how he dressed and just you know, 270 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.200 basically a cat burglar type and he would find out 271 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:21.759 if there was a husband in the home. And at 272 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.000 the time he was attacking just females alone. And so 273 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.679 that was in the news article, but it literally was 274 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.919 a first attack was in June, and this article didn't 275 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:33.600 come out, like you said, until November. 276 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:41.759 Now, at the time, what did you know, what did 277 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.000 you realize? I know in this book you compiled all 278 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.399 the information, but in November nineteen seventy six and in 279 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.360 nineteen seventy six in this area, what were you aware 280 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.320 of in terms of these attacks and what was the 281 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.279 response from people that other people in the community towards 282 00:15:58.320 --> 00:15:58.960 these Well. 283 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.799 There's a lot of different things on the Internet that 284 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.360 tell about the public's reaction at the time. I mean, 285 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.120 they sold out of logs they sold out the I mean, 286 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.279 people were buying guns. There was all kinds of panic 287 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.120 going on because after a while, I mean, when he 288 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.559 gets to what was fifteen and then twenty, and it 289 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.320 just the numbers kept going up. But when I first 290 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:24.120 saw any news articles in the newspaper, that's when I 291 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:29.240 became aware, obviously, and I you know, again, I was 292 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.360 trying to be careful. I was a female living alone 293 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.720 in an apartment and I was nineteen at the time, 294 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.360 so I just was aware that somebody was out there, 295 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:41.480 and it's not a real comfortable feeling. I remember thinking, 296 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:46.039 oh my god, you know so, But everybody felt that way. 297 00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.519 So everybody, I think, was probably pretty careful or as 298 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:53.240 much as they could be. When I started downtown in 299 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:55.960 one of the jobs I got. The same day I 300 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.279 started the job, there was an article in the newspaper 301 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.559 when Elvis died same day, and right underneath the article 302 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:06.599 for Elvis was an article about the Easter AIA rapist. 303 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.680 And that was by then nineteen seventy seven, so he'd 304 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:14.440 been doing this for more than a year, and it 305 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.920 continued for another year. So it was a long stretch. 306 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.759 When did you make a connection, because when did you 307 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.720 make a connection that not about your own attack being 308 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:36.160 associated with the East Aia rapist, but when did you 309 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:42.200 make the connection that this person may have been living, 310 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:45.480 going to school, some of the conclusions that you come 311 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.920 with later. When did you come to. 312 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:53.079 This Well, you know, at the time that this stuff 313 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:56.359 was going on, I had no idea that, of course, 314 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.039 like everybody else, what he was going to become and 315 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:04.720 how he would be to murders when he Like I said, 316 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.880 it was a long haul where we heard about this 317 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.640 guy for a couple of years and then all of 318 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.119 a sudden it just stopped. So I went about my 319 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:18.079 life for a while, and interestingly enough, I ended up 320 00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.960 knowing some people who were murdered, and of course no 321 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.039 one had any idea who murdered them. It took the 322 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.160 next twenty years approximately for people to connect that the 323 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.559 East Area rapist and the original Nightstalker were one and 324 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:36.400 the same guy. And I found that out probably in 325 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:40.000 two thousand, two thousand and one, because I was watching 326 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.480 TV one day while I was cleaning the house, and 327 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.000 all of a sudden it came up on the screen 328 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:47.200 and there were the pictures of people that I knew, 329 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.799 and I was like, Holy that's when I realized that 330 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.440 the guy hadn't gone away and hadn't gotten caught. He 331 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:57.640 just continued on to be a serial killer. And that's 332 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:59.880 when I went, oh God, and it was too scary. 333 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.400 And then, I mean, for quite a few years after that, 334 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:05.279 every time I looked up information or tried to learn 335 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:09.279 about it, it was just too scary for me. It's 336 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:10.000 very awful. 337 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:14.279 Now you say it was too scary, but was there 338 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:19.000 also some recognition that you may be close to realizing 339 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.480 the proximity, the close proximity. 340 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.119 Well, we have no proof really of where he came from. 341 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.039 I mean, no one knows who he is, so they 342 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.200 don't really know. It's a lot of speculation. But as 343 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.039 I studied the cases and I studied what he did, 344 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.480 and I studied where he came from, that he used 345 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:41.599 waterways or different avenues to leave crime scenes. He rode 346 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:46.240 a bicycle, he probably went on foot. I thought it 347 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.559 was a very smart thing for him to do because 348 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.240 while law enforcement was probably looking for him originally on 349 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.039 the road, a lot of times, he wasn't anywhere on 350 00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:00.279 the road, so he was able to get away. 351 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.359 Now, you basically did a re examination of this entire 352 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:13.799 case using Larry Crompton's Sudden Terror book, Richard Shelby's Booking Cyclopath. 353 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:17.839 Other Actually I hadn't read Richard's book until after I 354 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:23.599 wrote mine. I had read Larry Crompton's book, and I thought, well, okay, 355 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.160 at least that gave me some peace of mind about 356 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.319 imagine that peace of mind over this case, just the details. 357 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.519 I needed details. I wanted to know more about it 358 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.519 because it hadn't been solved, And so I did read 359 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.000 Larry's book, and of course I researched it every which 360 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.319 way I could. But mostly what I did was look 361 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:49.880 at maps and trace where the creek access where I 362 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.599 grew up went, and how you could travel all along 363 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:58.160 the access roads and creek accesses and so on, because 364 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.079 I knew Sacramento really really well well. I grew up there. 365 00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:04.640 I walked everywhere. I went to a lot of the 366 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.799 places that I'm sure that this guy had been to. 367 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.160 So so I used moups and I looked it up. 368 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:16.279 Now you also provide this this journey that you talk 369 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.160 about as well of discovery, and I call it a 370 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.680 re examination of this case. But I think you use 371 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:29.000 the term biogeographical. It's like geographical profiling in terms of 372 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.000 what you do, and you provide the photos for that 373 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.440 as well, and the examples and the explanations of where 374 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:38.599 this person could escape. For those people that don't know 375 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:40.880 and don't know anything about East Air a rapist, you 376 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.200 can tell us about some of the characteristics like the 377 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:48.200 jumping over the fences, which is again described in both 378 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.839 of those gentlemen, these detectives' books. But right, tell us 379 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.640 what you thought. You obviously you look for escape routes, 380 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.640 but the other ways that they did escape from gathered 381 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.240 from the information that you looked at. So tell us 382 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:03.799 what you found. 383 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:10.519 Well, I you know the attacks that he did first, 384 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.359 A lot of them, not all of them, but a 385 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.200 lot of them were very close to levy roads, river 386 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.559 access roads, you know, bike paths and things that were 387 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:27.000 out there in the East area. He went down creek beds, 388 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.240 and he just had scoped out the areas so well 389 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.920 ahead of time. I mean, he stalked different areas. Actually 390 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.200 geographically he looked at areas. I think it was really 391 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.799 important to him what the geography looked like. It had 392 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.839 to be all part of his scenario, and so he 393 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:50.359 found those similarities in different neighborhoods when he started as 394 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.319 the East Area rapist, when he went down to Contra 395 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.640 Costa County, when he went down to the Bay areas, 396 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:01.799 and also when he ended up in southern California going 397 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.359 through the santas A Creek area. So a lot of 398 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:07.079 the time, not all of the time, but a lot 399 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:11.400 of the time that's what he used. So it was 400 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:15.839 interesting to see how successful he was at that. 401 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:20.480