Speaker 1: Hey, guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you
Speaker 1: know this about me, but I'm a bit of a
Speaker 1: fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but
Speaker 1: I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the
Speaker 1: truth is out there, I can tell you about my
Speaker 1: favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have hundreds
Speaker 1: of social casino style games to choose from, with new
Speaker 1: games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere,
Speaker 1: and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses.
Speaker 1: So join me and the fun. Sign up now at
Speaker 1: Chumba Casino dot com.
Speaker 2: No, We're necessary day where I lost terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 1: Lucky Land Casino. Asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 1: gotten lucky?
Speaker 3: Lucky?
Speaker 1: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
Speaker 1: dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 3: Yes? You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kids pta meeting?
Speaker 3: Really?
Speaker 1: Yes, excuse me?
Speaker 2: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 3: I never win?
Speaker 4: And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 1: You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landslots dot com.
Speaker 2: Play for free right now?
Speaker 1: Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 2: No, We're just NECESSARIOI where We're go my long eighteen
Speaker 2: plus terms and conditions plus you want.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening. Fans of mind Hunter and true crime podcasts
Speaker 5: will devour these chilling stories of serial killers from the
Speaker 5: American Golden Age nineteen fifty to two thousand. With books
Speaker 5: like Serial Killers, Female serial Killers, and Sons of Cain,
Speaker 5: Peter Vronsky has established himself as the foremost expert on
Speaker 5: the history of serial killers. In his first definitive History
Speaker 5: of the Golden Age of American serial Murder, when the
Speaker 5: number and body count of serial killers exploded, Vronsky tells
Speaker 5: the stories of the most unusual and prominent serial killings
Speaker 5: from the nineteen fifties to the early twenty first century,
Speaker 5: from Ted Bundy to the Golden State Killer. Our fascination
Speaker 5: with these classics serial killers seems to grow by the day,
Speaker 5: American serial Killers gives true crime junkies what they crave,
Speaker 5: with both perennial favorites Ed Kemper, Jeffrey Dahmer in lesser
Speaker 5: known cases, Melvin Rhees, Harvey Glatman. The book they were
Speaker 5: featuring this evening is American serial Killers the Epidemic Years
Speaker 5: nineteen fifty to two thousand, when my special guests historian,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Peter Vronsky. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 5: thank you so much for this interview. Peter Vronsky, Hi, Dan,
Speaker 5: thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for
Speaker 5: joining me once again with this incredible American serial Killers.
Speaker 5: Tell us just the genesis of this book and what
Speaker 5: you intended to prove I guess and determine with this
Speaker 5: American serial Killers.
Speaker 3: Well, it's been a long time in the making. Certainly
Speaker 3: I became aware myself serial killers during this era after
Speaker 3: I had quite a random, very briefly encountered and all
Speaker 3: apprehended serial killer in December of nineteen seventy nine in
Speaker 3: New York City, and it was a dramatic encounter. He
Speaker 3: was fleeing the scene of a double homicide that he
Speaker 3: had committed in a hotel he had beheaded to sex
Speaker 3: workers in his room, set their torsos on fire, and
Speaker 3: then fled with the heads. And as she was doing that,
Speaker 3: he held up the elevator, which really annoyed me because
Speaker 3: I was in the lobby trying to go up and
Speaker 3: take a look at this hotel, whether I wanted to
Speaker 3: stay there or not. You know, this was a rough
Speaker 3: period in New York's history. You would check into a
Speaker 3: hotel if you're not familiar with it without first looking around.
Speaker 3: So you know, he probably held up the elevator for
Speaker 3: maybe forty seconds tops. But I'm twenty three, I'm impatient,
Speaker 3: and so he annoys me.
Speaker 6: And when the elevator.
Speaker 3: Starts coming down, I you know, I gave him this
Speaker 3: kind of hard look. So I had a good look
Speaker 3: at him. When I went up to walk through the hotel,
Speaker 3: I chose the floor that at random that he had
Speaker 3: been on the top floor, and of course at that
Speaker 3: point I walked into the smoke coming from the torsos
Speaker 3: that he had sat on fire. I never ended up
Speaker 3: staying there. I ended up, you know, evacuating out of
Speaker 3: the hotel and left as the fire department was arriving.
Speaker 3: So that was my first encounter. Who it was I
Speaker 3: later learned about almost eight months nine months later he
Speaker 3: had been arrested, and I saw his pictures and I realized,
Speaker 3: you know who it was I encountered on the elevator,
Speaker 3: and he was this ordinary looking guy, Richard Cottingham, the
Speaker 3: Times Square Corso killer, and so fascinated with what the
Speaker 3: hell this was? And the term serial killer did not
Speaker 3: exist at that time, certainly not in public usage. Law
Speaker 3: enforcement had been using it amongst themselves, but newspapers didn't
Speaker 3: use it. It really doesn't enter into our popular lexicon
Speaker 3: until May of nineteen eighty one, when The New York
Speaker 3: Times uses that term to describe Wayne Williams, the child
Speaker 3: murderer in Atlanta. So, you know, not having that word
Speaker 3: made me kinda left an impression of almost like a
Speaker 3: supernatural monster and Alfred Hitchcock movie serial Killer. I mean,
Speaker 3: serial killers have been in our consciousness certainly since easily
Speaker 3: since Jack the Ripper eighteen eighty eight and Blonde before that,
Speaker 3: but we didn't really have a word for them, and
Speaker 3: without the word, there was no concept. We called them
Speaker 3: recreational killers. We refer to them as stranger on stranger killers.
Speaker 3: Sometimes we call them as mass killers, which of course
Speaker 3: today has a whole different meaning than it did when
Speaker 3: that term was used. So I didn't have any of
Speaker 3: those concepts to kind of comfort me in on understanding
Speaker 3: what it was that I had encountered. And so it
Speaker 3: was this lifelong fascination with these monsters, and as the
Speaker 3: word serial killer entered into our lexicon, I I kind
Speaker 3: of realized what that was, but remained fascinated with their history,
Speaker 3: their origins and so forth. And you know, when I
Speaker 3: retired from television production and decided to take a shot
Speaker 3: at writing a book, you know, they say write what
Speaker 3: you know, and that's what I started up with and
Speaker 3: really haven't looked back since. I think this is maybe
Speaker 3: my fourth book on serial killers. And this era of
Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies and nineteen nineteen seventies to nineteen the
Speaker 3: end of nineteen nineties, when.
Speaker 7: We had something like about eighty two percent of all
Speaker 7: serial killers in the twentieth century appeared just in these
Speaker 7: three decades.
Speaker 3: It clearly was an epidemic and was called an epidemic
Speaker 3: at that time. You know, the Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer, Richard Ramirez, the Hillside Stranglers era of serial killers.
Speaker 3: You know, some approximately two thousand, three hundred serial killers
Speaker 3: identified in that era. That's a lot of serial killers.
Speaker 3: And so I've been writing about serial killers for about
Speaker 3: twenty years now.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 3: You know, I never really took a hard look at
Speaker 3: exactly this, and no one has, no one has really
Speaker 3: written a history of this three decade era. And so
Speaker 3: after doing Sons of Cain, where you know, there were
Speaker 3: several chapters that I looked at this era, I still
Speaker 3: felt I had a bucket me just about the whole era.
Speaker 3: So I look kind of at the ramp up starting
Speaker 3: from nineteen fifty essentially where you start beginning to see
Speaker 3: the steady rise of cerial homicides in the United States,
Speaker 3: and then with the nineteen seventies, you suddenly have this
Speaker 3: surge that essentially will run until the mid nineteen nineties,
Speaker 3: when we begin to see the first time not only
Speaker 3: a decline in the number of serial killers being apprehended,
Speaker 3: but as well in general murders and violent crime in
Speaker 3: the United States begins to dramatically drop at that point.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about the impetus and the genesis of this
Speaker 5: surge of serial killing in the seventies and the nineties.
Speaker 5: You say that there was some seeds planted, and that
Speaker 5: there are social and cultural and historical reasons for this,
Speaker 5: and you provide those Yes, tell us, yeah, as you
Speaker 5: discovered some of the reasons for the rise of this phenomenon.
Speaker 3: Well, my hypothesis is going to be one of a
Speaker 3: you know, a historian. I don't claim to be an
Speaker 3: expert or a profile of serial killers. You know, my
Speaker 3: expertise is in their history. And so we, including myself
Speaker 3: in my earlier books, always associated, you know, this surge
Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies to the nineteen nineties with a
Speaker 3: general change in American culture that begins in the nineteen sixties.
Speaker 3: You know, we have the civil rights struggle and kind
Speaker 3: of upheavals around that. We have the Vietnam War protests,
Speaker 3: we have the emergence of youth culture, we have the
Speaker 3: sexual revolution, the kind of disintegration of the nuclear family,
Speaker 3: and you know, there is a rise, as I say,
Speaker 3: in violence and disorder in general in American society, and
Speaker 3: so we often associated serial murder with that period and
Speaker 3: with contemporary serial killers at that time. The problem with
Speaker 3: this model is that on average, a serial killer kills
Speaker 3: their first victim around the age of twenty seven twenty eight,
Speaker 3: but their obsessions, their psychopathology begins developing as early as
Speaker 3: the age of five, and often you have a kind
Speaker 3: of a complete cycle by the time they're around the
Speaker 3: age of fourteen. And so that means that if we're
Speaker 3: going to look at you know, Ted Bundy, for example,
Speaker 3: you got to back him out of the era in
Speaker 3: which he was committing as murders to the era in
Speaker 3: which he was a child when he's being kind of formed,
Speaker 3: and that of course brings us back, you know, twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five years Ted Bundy, typically of that generation is
Speaker 3: born in nineteen forty six, and so we got.
Speaker 6: To look at not only the culture and time in
Speaker 6: which children who will become serial killers are being raised,
Speaker 6: but as well at the parents to that family and what.
Speaker 3: Was affecting the family at that time, in particular the fathers.
Speaker 3: And of course that gives us these two American traumas,
Speaker 3: the Great Depression and the Second World War combined together
Speaker 3: has an impact on both males and females. Certainly, you
Speaker 3: have a generation of males who lose their sense of
Speaker 3: pride in the Great Depression when they are no longer
Speaker 3: the bread winners that they work. A lot of men
Speaker 3: could not really handle that and just abandon their families.
Speaker 3: And you know, you have now a generation of women
Speaker 3: that have to single handedly bring up their children. And
Speaker 3: one thing we do see, and there are various psychological
Speaker 3: explanations for it, but one thing we do see in
Speaker 3: many serial killer biographies, not at all, but in many
Speaker 3: is the presence of a kind of a controlling, dominant mother.
Speaker 3: That would be the expression, you know, we might use
Speaker 3: what you know, more politely put, what we're seeing is
Speaker 3: of course, independent, assertive women that have to play both
Speaker 3: role of father and mother, and that is only more
Speaker 3: intensified by the Second World War as the husbands begin
Speaker 3: to leave and women are single handedly raising children. And
Speaker 3: of course when the husband's return from the Second World War,
Speaker 3: they're not the same. And we completely underestimated the trauma
Speaker 3: that our fathers and grandfathers went through in the Second
Speaker 3: World War. We think it was like it's portrayed in
Speaker 3: the movies, and it wasn't at all that. And you know,
Speaker 3: I discovered that astonishing thirty seven percent of GI ground
Speaker 3: combat troops deployed in World War Two were discharged and
Speaker 3: sent home as neuropsychiatric casualties thirty seven percent, So that's
Speaker 3: a a huge amount. And we didn't have the kind
Speaker 3: of diagnosis we have of post traumatic stress disorder. In
Speaker 3: the post Vietnam War era. We had these vague terms
Speaker 3: combat stress reaction CSR, battle fatigue, battle neuroses, but we
Speaker 3: didn't understand what it was. And basically, traumatized soldiers come home,
Speaker 3: they're told to just suck it up. There's no treatment,
Speaker 3: there's no understanding of what they were experiencing. And as
Speaker 3: I looked at that era of serial killers and began to,
Speaker 3: you know, collect these accounts of serial killers describing, you know,
Speaker 3: their fathers, particularly those who served in the Pacific, coming
Speaker 3: back from the war and just totally disconnected from them,
Speaker 3: their family, just in this kind of sullen silence in
Speaker 3: which they you don't have to suffer. So that adds
Speaker 3: yet another level to the childhoods of these young males
Speaker 3: that are born in the baby bloomer generation. Adding to that,
Speaker 3: on top of it, it's never one thing. Adding to that,
Speaker 3: we have this ubiquitous popular literature in the form of
Speaker 3: true detective magazines and pulp advent men's pulp adventure magazines
Speaker 3: that well, first of all, we're sold mainstream next to
Speaker 3: Life magazine, Time Magazine, Ladies, Home, you know, Home, Garden Journal,
Speaker 3: and so forth, which depicted and celebrated the abduction, restraint, torture, rape,
Speaker 3: and murder of women. It you know, all the detective
Speaker 3: magazines often featured a model who posed in the photograph.
Speaker 3: She was bound, she was you know, her clothing was
Speaker 3: in a sense of disorder. None of these were blatantly pornographic,
Speaker 3: but clearly the implication was here that this is a
Speaker 3: woman who's abducted, tortured, rape, sexually assaulted, and will probably
Speaker 3: be murdered. And often the victim in these cover magazines
Speaker 3: looked out at the buyer of the magazines. It was,
Speaker 3: you know, you could have her for the price of
Speaker 3: the magazine. Was essentially the message, and the same thing
Speaker 3: with the men's adventure magazines, except the covers were painted
Speaker 3: rather than posed the photographically. So by the nineteen fifties
Speaker 3: has homicide investigations of serial homicides begin to unfold the
Speaker 3: presence of these magazines and kind of scripts from these
Speaker 3: magazines become evident. In some of these cases, particularly I
Speaker 3: described in my book the case of Hardy Glackman, who
Speaker 3: was so obsessed with these magazines that he actually would
Speaker 3: lure in Los Angeles freelancing photo bottles, telling them that
Speaker 3: he had an assignment to shoot a true detective magazine cover,
Speaker 3: and he would pose them as if they were in
Speaker 3: a true detective magazine cover and then enter into the
Speaker 3: cover and do what he wanted with them. They killed
Speaker 3: a number of women that way. Those photographs are you know, survived,
Speaker 3: and at that time, those photographs of you know, actually
Speaker 3: a serial killer's victim in the process of being victimized
Speaker 3: were published throughout the United States. They still circulate on
Speaker 3: the Internet today, and their absolute duplicates of what Harvey
Speaker 3: Blackman was seeing in these two detective magazines. He as
Speaker 3: well was subscribing to bondage literature as well, which also
Speaker 3: wasn't you know, technically pornographic either. Right, So these this
Speaker 3: now on top of kind of the parental trauma whatever
Speaker 3: you know, serial killers experience. There's a whole matrix of
Speaker 3: things that happened to children who become serial killers. Plus
Speaker 3: these magazines begin to kind of give them a script
Speaker 3: on which to express their obsessions, express their compotions, So
Speaker 3: it's not that these magazines necessarily made them into serial killers,
Speaker 3: but it inspired what they would do their their script.
Speaker 3: You know, other serial killers are inspired by biblical passages,
Speaker 3: you know. Dennis Radar, the BTK Killer, described how he
Speaker 3: would be turned on by Boom Winkle cartoons, you know,
Speaker 3: the ones that feature Dudley do Right d r CMP
Speaker 3: the mountie who's rescuing now and now is often bound
Speaker 3: and tied to a railway track by the villain right,
Speaker 3: and Dudley do Right comes to rescue her. Well, Dennis
Speaker 3: Radar described how, you know, he was aroused by these
Speaker 3: cartoon images of now being tied to the railway track.
Speaker 3: So anything, anything can inspire a you know, budding serial
Speaker 3: killer in expressing already what's inside of them was brewing
Speaker 3: inside of them and gives them shape and gives the form.
Speaker 3: And of course that's what profiles begin to focus in
Speaker 3: on in the nineteen seventies. They begin to discern certain patterns,
Speaker 3: certain imprint signatures, as they call it, and those signatures
Speaker 3: come from our culture, from our era. You know, when
Speaker 3: I looked at serial murder in the nineteenth century, for example,
Speaker 3: you know, there was a period where serial killers had
Speaker 3: an obsession with servant girls the way later serial killers
Speaker 3: have an obsession with sex workers, right, so, servant girls
Speaker 3: and the type of silk clothing they wore. So in
Speaker 3: the early you know, from about eighteen hundred to about
Speaker 3: eighteen fifty eighteen sixty, you had a number of serial
Speaker 3: killing cases where the victims were servant girls. They were
Speaker 3: lured into some remote place, and often they were killed
Speaker 3: for their clothing and the whole servant girl fetish. In fact,
Speaker 3: it is still with us today. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: walk through the aisles of the costume department in any
Speaker 3: kind of adult novelty spoor and there you'll see the
Speaker 3: you know, servant girl costumes. It's still a theme in
Speaker 3: kind of sexual play.
Speaker 5: You talked about the scripts becoming more involved, more in
Speaker 5: incorporating and exhibiting more complex and extreme fetishistic fetistic elements
Speaker 5: and necrophilic mutilations as well, and you say this, by
Speaker 5: the thirties, these scripts are becoming more elaborate and incorporating
Speaker 5: these things that we hadn't seen previously. In the run
Speaker 5: up to the seventies and the nineties, you cite certain
Speaker 5: examples of particular killers that were and then just as
Speaker 5: you mentioned, about Glatman. Meanwhile, you talked about Glatman being
Speaker 5: featured in a True Detective magazine and Dennis Raider finding
Speaker 5: a True Detective magazine in his father's truck apparently and
Speaker 5: being influenced and seeing, geez, look at these are the
Speaker 5: kinds of things I've been dreaming of.
Speaker 3: So the groundwork for ground.
Speaker 5: Work for some of the things that you saw in
Speaker 5: sexual serial murderers from the seventies and nineties, the infamous
Speaker 5: ones were where the groundwork was laid before, wasn't it.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And the groundwork is laid of course when
Speaker 3: these crimes were being committed, when these guys were children. Indeed,
Speaker 3: Dennis Radar in fact says that he was around fourteen
Speaker 3: years old when in his father's truck he picked up
Speaker 3: a two Detective magazine and it was actually the Harvey
Speaker 3: Glatman case with those photographs said were published everywhere that
Speaker 3: suddenly captured his attention. And we can see it kind
Speaker 3: of an escalation from the kind of more innocent now
Speaker 3: the cartoon figure tied to the rails to now an
Speaker 3: actual photograph of a bound woman that Harvey Gladman used
Speaker 3: to resynthesize the fake detective magazine covers, and now you
Speaker 3: have the next generation Dennis Radar, who begins to reenact
Speaker 3: these kinds of bondage scenarios, often using himself as a
Speaker 3: model in them. He kind of uses himself as almost
Speaker 3: a three dimensional image of his fantasy, imagines himself being
Speaker 3: actually the woman. So it's a very kind of creepy,
Speaker 3: circular psychological process that eventually spins out of just being
Speaker 3: inside the mind of the serial killer. It spins out
Speaker 3: of that into an actual murder when he takes it
Speaker 3: on the road essentially, and again that statistically begins to
Speaker 3: occur around the age twenty seven twenty eight. You know,
Speaker 3: that's when many of serial killers really mature into it.
Speaker 3: That's the term we might use, mature into you know,
Speaker 3: real serial killers who are no longer just fantasizing about it,
Speaker 3: but are doing it. But the fantasies are often decades old,
Speaker 3: slowly evolving.
Speaker 5: What are the some of the factors that you cite
Speaker 5: to enable some of the numbers, because that's one of
Speaker 5: the important aspects of the phenomena seventies to the nineties
Speaker 5: was the incredible numbers of victims. What were some of
Speaker 5: the factors that you cite that would enable these serial
Speaker 5: killers to rack up these kinds of big numbers.
Speaker 3: I think, firstly, just a basic lack of knowledge, and
Speaker 3: you know that we don't even have a definition for
Speaker 3: what it is they're doing. The biggest problem facing law
Speaker 3: enforcement then and still to this day, to a great extent,
Speaker 3: was the problem of linkage blindness, where you had, you know,
Speaker 3: murders and different jurisdictions, and jurisdictions do not communicate with
Speaker 3: each other. You also had murders in the same jurisdiction
Speaker 3: that were linked together. Police investigators in the nineteen sixties
Speaker 3: had a much more simplistic motion of sexual murders. You know,
Speaker 3: if somebody say, for example, you know, strangled an adolescent girl,
Speaker 3: but then maybe suffocated a teenager, it was considered to
Speaker 3: be too different for it to be the same perpetrator.
Speaker 3: And so, you know, serial killings weren't linked. And I'm
Speaker 3: working on a particular case right now as an investigative
Speaker 3: historian with jurisdictions in New York and in New Jersey,
Speaker 3: in fact, dealing with the serial killer that I had
Speaker 3: encountered way back in nineteen seventy nine. I've been introduced
Speaker 3: to him several years ago by the daughter of a victim,
Speaker 3: and the you know, some of his cases which are
Speaker 3: now being closed. Last year I announced that three cases
Speaker 3: from nineteen sixty eight and sixty nine of schoolgirls in
Speaker 3: New Jersey, he confessed to those killings.
Speaker 8: At that time, the media kind of made possible links
Speaker 8: between these murders, but there was no official position that
Speaker 8: these are serial murders.
Speaker 3: And when I reviewed the case, the cases I was given,
Speaker 3: they all occurred in the same county, in Bergen County,
Speaker 3: New Jersey, and I was given them opportunity to review
Speaker 3: his confession and compare it to the actual case files.
Speaker 3: There was nothing in the case files that suggested that
Speaker 3: the murder in the next town was connected to this
Speaker 3: other murder. It just was inconceivable to police, and often
Speaker 3: is inconceivable today, you know, because serial homicide, despite kind
Speaker 3: of the prominence it has in our culture and our
Speaker 3: entertainment and so forth, it's an extraordinarily rare crime, and
Speaker 3: more so today, and so often there is a resistance
Speaker 3: in policing to jump to the serial killer scenario. It's
Speaker 3: one that the police, and they have good reason to
Speaker 3: usually contemplate as the last possibility. And we had that
Speaker 3: problem here in Toronto a few years ago with the
Speaker 3: Bruce MacArthur murders. These were murders of you know, gay
Speaker 3: males who had a similar ethnic background. They vanished in
Speaker 3: the gay community here, and you know, the police were
Speaker 3: very resistant to declaring this as a serial homicide case
Speaker 3: because they simply didn't have, you know, any evidence confirming that.
Speaker 3: And and so without that solid evidence, the by police
Speaker 3: departments essentially as you know, this is not a serial
Speaker 3: murder until we have evidence, even though they suspected it
Speaker 3: was that, investigated it as that, and eventually when they
Speaker 3: found the evidence, you had the apprehension. But you know,
Speaker 3: there's there's an inquiry now as to whether the Toronto
Speaker 3: police should have treated this in a different way. So
Speaker 3: there is a reluctance, as I say, to declare something
Speaker 3: as a serial murder case unless they have just absolute
Speaker 3: evidence like you know, DNA for example.
Speaker 5: Right, let's use this, Peter as an opportunity to stop
Speaker 5: for a second to hear from our sponsor, which is
Speaker 5: Fat Fit Fun. Fat Fit Fun spring Box is centered
Speaker 5: around the theme grow forth, supporting self care and self growth.
Speaker 5: In the new season ahead, my wife Lisa and I
Speaker 5: are planning to grow forth into the spring season by
Speaker 5: reconnecting with old friends and getting back into hobbies and
Speaker 5: activities that we enjoy and just haven't neglected. My wife,
Speaker 5: Lisa was so excited to get her Fat Fit Fun
Speaker 5: spring Box and wanting to get a head start this
Speaker 5: year for planning seeds for our garden, and so she
Speaker 5: was anxious to get her led indoor planter by Short
Speaker 5: Stories and get started planning seeds for our garden this summer.
Speaker 5: Lisa loves all the fab Fit Fun items relating to
Speaker 5: skincare like Grown Alchemist body cream with mandarin and rosemary leaf,
Speaker 5: Josie Moran one hundred percent pure argan oil. Lisa loved
Speaker 5: her super I Serum by Verso with Retinol eight and
Speaker 5: pure Iconic Glow moisturizing face and body dry oil. Lisa
Speaker 5: literally relies on all of these fab Fit Fun and
Speaker 5: their marvelous health and beauty products they deliver to our door.
Speaker 5: Twenty female founded brands are in the spring box this season.
Speaker 5: You can choose from a wide variety of products when
Speaker 5: you order receive seasonal must haves without leaving home. This
Speaker 5: fab Fit Fun spring Box is still excit for Lisa
Speaker 5: to receive. Even after receiving fabfit fundboxes for almost four
Speaker 5: years now, Lisa tells everyone she encounters about the amazing
Speaker 5: products and the incredible value and the perks of membership.
Speaker 5: Order your spring box today. Sign up now so you
Speaker 5: can snag amazing products like the led indoor Planner by
Speaker 5: Short Stories or Verso super Iserum when you customize. Use
Speaker 5: coupon code murder for ten dollars off your first box
Speaker 5: at www dot fabfitfund dot com. Use coupon code murder
Speaker 5: for ten dollars off your first box at www dot
Speaker 5: fabfitfund dot com. Now, Peter, we were talking about the
Speaker 5: police and their difficulty even wrapping their minds around the
Speaker 5: phenomena of serial killing until it until they had a
Speaker 5: confession or they had some overwhelming as that put this together,
Speaker 5: and we didn't talk and you do talk about we
Speaker 5: didn't mention, but you do talk about the FBI when
Speaker 5: they finally became a clearinghouse for a serial murder, when
Speaker 5: they first became involved in any serial murder, and also
Speaker 5: the rise of profiling and the mind hunters.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, indeed, a homicide is not really in the
Speaker 3: jurisdiction of the FBI. You know there. Of course, the
Speaker 3: FBI investigates primarily federal crimes. They will investigate when a
Speaker 3: victim might be taken across state lines or if a murder,
Speaker 3: you know, occurs a number of murders across state lines.
Speaker 3: But you know, we see kind of the image popular
Speaker 3: image of the FBI rushing to these serial murder cases,
Speaker 3: but that is not the case. If they make an appearance,
Speaker 3: it's often they're invited in. So the Behavioral Sciences Unit
Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties was primarily formed to deal with
Speaker 3: hostage takers and the psychology applied to talking down a
Speaker 3: hostage taker or a hijacker. And at that period, this
Speaker 3: was shortly after Hoover had passed away. Jan Gar Hoover.
Speaker 3: The Behavioral Sciences Unit a FBI agents. They also were
Speaker 3: teaching in quantical the academy. There they would give various
Speaker 3: courses on criminal psychology for visiting police detectives who were
Speaker 3: you know, upgrading their qualifications, and they were encouraged to
Speaker 3: look on a camp on a civilian university to carry
Speaker 3: out their own research and and and so a number
Speaker 3: of these behaviorists began to notice that there's this increase
Speaker 3: of serial homicides. They didn't quite know as a you know,
Speaker 3: what to call it. That all different names for it.
Speaker 3: Robert Ressler eventually, and I think most historians have kind
Speaker 3: of settled on the Robert Ressler version of how that
Speaker 3: term was coined. Robert Wrestler said it came to him
Speaker 3: when he was lecturing in in in England, in fact,
Speaker 3: at the police Academy there. He used the term serial
Speaker 3: and it was inspired by Saturday Afternoon serials cliffhangers, and
Speaker 3: he described serialal murder as kind of that kind of
Speaker 3: cliffhanger where the perpetrator commits the murder but it's left
Speaker 3: unsatisfied by it, kind of a cliffhanger if he wants
Speaker 3: to see the next episode or commit the next episode.
Speaker 3: And so A Wrestler says that in the mid seventies
Speaker 3: that inspired that that term serial killer. But these guys
Speaker 3: began to in the way that they were interviewing hostage
Speaker 3: takers and you know, why did they surrender and things
Speaker 3: like that, they began privately interviewing serial killers as well,
Speaker 3: and mass killers and assassination assassins, attempted assassins as well.
Speaker 3: And so wrestler John Douglas that late generation began this
Speaker 3: intensive series. They got a brand to make this official.
Speaker 3: Man began interviewing serial killers. I think they interviewed something
Speaker 3: like thirty two serial sexual murders and maybe another four
Speaker 3: or five sexual murderers who weren't serial killers. They engage
Speaker 3: a forensic nurse and Burgess to give them kind of
Speaker 3: an academic discipline approach to this research project. And so
Speaker 3: they started in the late seventies and nineteen eighty six
Speaker 3: they published their results. It's kind of this monumental book
Speaker 3: still is Sexual serial Murder Patterns and Motives is the title.
Speaker 3: This becomes kind of almost a handbook for profilers. They
Speaker 3: categorized serial killers is either organized or disorganized or mixed
Speaker 3: category serial killers. I should say, by the way, FBI
Speaker 3: profiles today don't use that model. That's just the movies.
Speaker 3: You know, nobody comes to a scene and says, you know,
Speaker 3: this is an organized or disorganized you know, that's that's
Speaker 3: not the model that's that's used. But at that time
Speaker 3: it was the first attempt to first of all name
Speaker 3: the phenomenon, and so serial killer, you know, becomes that
Speaker 3: that term, you know, and rules book on Ted Bundy,
Speaker 3: which I think is kind of the seminal true crime
Speaker 3: book that introduces us to the notion of a serial killer.
Speaker 3: When that book was published at first time in nineteen eighty,
Speaker 3: the term serial killer never appears in it. Imagine a
Speaker 3: book on Ted Bundy without the word serial killer in it.
Speaker 3: So they now create this kind of diagnosis and what's
Speaker 3: expected the organized, disorganized serial killer, and and and and
Speaker 3: so that's how the behavioral sciences unit comes into this.
Speaker 3: This position is kind of a clearing house on serial murder.
Speaker 3: And and of course you as well. At that point
Speaker 3: in time, politicians began to dig into this and and
Speaker 3: and so there is this kind of call, especially after
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy, a call for kind of a centralized database
Speaker 3: system where unsolved homicides data on them can be entered
Speaker 3: into this database, various characteristics perhaps being able to make
Speaker 3: a match to other serial killers. And so you get
Speaker 3: the birth of VISCAP. This this database which acts is
Speaker 3: not a gain used as often as it's you know,
Speaker 3: purported to be in popular literature or or or the movies.
Speaker 3: And and so there's very few, if any serial killers
Speaker 3: that have been apprehended solely by the virtue of profiling,
Speaker 3: you know, profiling is a good tool. It helps. It
Speaker 3: particularly helps once you have a suspect in mind, you know,
Speaker 3: does he come near the profile. It helps as well
Speaker 3: in interviewing the suspect. There you know, there's a psychological
Speaker 3: approach that a certain type of serial killer might be
Speaker 3: more vulnerable too. So you know, that behavioral issue is
Speaker 3: important to policing. But it's not the magic bullet that
Speaker 3: we see portrayed in Hollywood or on television. But definitely
Speaker 3: these congressional hearings that's where the term serial killer epidemic
Speaker 3: is actually used. In these congressional hearings, in particular the
Speaker 3: question of missing children. And there were these allegations and
Speaker 3: of course John Welsh from America's Most Wanted he you know,
Speaker 3: his son was a murder victim, possibly victim of a
Speaker 3: serial killer. And so Walsh had testified before the congressional hearings.
Speaker 3: But and Rule did too, and they made some outlandish
Speaker 3: claims as to how many serial killers were out there
Speaker 3: and how many children were being abducted by serial killers.
Speaker 3: That helped, certainly, those dramatic numbers helped the FBI get funding.
Speaker 3: But as Robert Wrestler himself later wrote, you said, you know,
Speaker 3: we needed the money. We just you know, exaggerated the
Speaker 3: extent of the epidemic, and it turned out that most
Speaker 3: child abductions in fact are you know, by by family
Speaker 3: members or people who are known to the children rather
Speaker 3: than strangers the way it was you know, implied during
Speaker 3: those fearings. But it brought funding for VISCAP. It you know,
Speaker 3: it's still running, it's still going, it's gone through several generations.
Speaker 3: And you know the problem with vi CAP, of course,
Speaker 3: is firstly, you know, it required the completion of very
Speaker 3: complicated and long form. There's like over a hundred questions
Speaker 3: and paperwork and cops don't mix very well, right, so
Speaker 3: very few police officers were ready to you know, fill
Speaker 3: out this long form then mail it all right and
Speaker 3: and and get nothing out of it. Eventually, once you
Speaker 3: everybody had you know, desktop computers, you could now fill
Speaker 3: out this form on a piece of software. You can
Speaker 3: you know, you rather than filling it out by hand
Speaker 3: on a typewriter or a typewriter, you can now do
Speaker 3: it on this piece of software and then facts the form.
Speaker 3: The third kind of prereation was you can just now
Speaker 3: just go online and complete the form. But until the
Speaker 3: early two thousands, police departments could not query ViCAP. You
Speaker 3: had to submit the form and then wait for ViCAP
Speaker 3: to do the analysis and then sing you the you know,
Speaker 3: their results it. You know, individual police departments did not
Speaker 3: have access to the ViCAP database. And that changed, you
Speaker 3: know in let's say around two thousand and five, somewhere
Speaker 3: in there. Police departments now are can tap into the
Speaker 3: master database themselves rather than waiting for FBI analysts to
Speaker 3: do that. But those things kind of hindered the use
Speaker 3: of vi CAAP and so by the two thousands, a
Speaker 3: lot of new police officers who came on you know,
Speaker 3: enlisted in the in the police, weren't even aware of
Speaker 3: v CAP. You know, the FBI kind of stopped sending
Speaker 3: bulletins on it. They stopped sending FBI asians to kind
Speaker 3: of brief police departments on what's available. And so it's
Speaker 3: in the two thousand, around two thousand and five that
Speaker 3: the FBI kind of again restarted the bulletins on the
Speaker 3: VISCAP and and began informing officers and or hey, you know,
Speaker 3: there is this tool that's available to you, and and
Speaker 3: so forth. So it had its ups and downs, as
Speaker 3: you know, the whole profiling, and it is an art essentially.
Speaker 3: It's not exactly a science. It's kind of an art.
Speaker 3: I guess the way you know, psychiatry is kind of
Speaker 3: a little bit of intuitive understanding of your patient and
Speaker 3: their psychology, and you know some degree of sciences on
Speaker 3: mental illness and so forth. The same thing applies to profiling.
Speaker 3: It's a bit of an art, it's a bit of
Speaker 3: a science, and it's only as good as the profiler themselves.
Speaker 3: And some people are better, more adapt at profiling, while
Speaker 3: others are not so. Certainly, it's a talent.
Speaker 5: Let's use as an opportunity to stop for just a
Speaker 5: second for these messages.
Speaker 3: Judy was born.
Speaker 2: Hello, Then Judy discovered chumbacasino dot com.
Speaker 6: It's my little escape.
Speaker 2: Now Judy is the life of the party. Oh baby,
Speaker 2: mama is bringing home the bacon. WHOA, Take it easy, Judy.
Speaker 2: The Chumba life is for everybody. So go to chumpacasino
Speaker 2: dot com and play over one hundred casino style games.
Speaker 2: Join today and play for free for your chance to
Speaker 2: redeem some serious prices. Jump chumpacasino dot COM's necessary. We
Speaker 2: were comitted my mom e team loss terms and condition to
Speaker 2: play se what's every details.
Speaker 5: Now, you talked about the psychology of profiling and its development,
Speaker 5: but in this book you also do the background on
Speaker 5: a lot of these infamous serial killers, and there seems
Speaker 5: to be a common characteristic in regarding head injuries. So
Speaker 5: let's talk about the prevalence of the head injury and
Speaker 5: what that would mean in terms of motivation for these
Speaker 5: types of crimes. Let's talk about that before we talk
Speaker 5: about your theory about this throwback to primordial time.
Speaker 3: Head injuries. Certainly, we've always known that there's kind of
Speaker 3: a behavioral aspect to some head injuries, particularly frontal lobe injuries.
Speaker 3: We've known that since the nineteenth century. We just didn't
Speaker 3: have ways of measuring it or illustrating or documenting the
Speaker 3: actual effect of a head injury on the brain, which
Speaker 3: in the last twenty thirty years we've now developed we
Speaker 3: can deep scan brains. Doctor Keel in New Mexico is
Speaker 3: kind of the leading current forensic psychiatrist who has looked
Speaker 3: at tens of thousands of brain scans of incarcerated inmates
Speaker 3: who tested positive for psychopathy, and he can now he
Speaker 3: can actually look at a brain scan and say this
Speaker 3: individual will test positive on the hair psychopathy test. There's
Speaker 3: a test we use forty questions that are not filled
Speaker 3: out by the subject but actually are filled out by
Speaker 3: the analyst kind of behavioral issues and historical issues around
Speaker 3: a particular subject, and you score them on this forty
Speaker 3: point mark, and anybody who scores twenty five or upwards
Speaker 3: would be technically diagnosed as a psychopath. This is a
Speaker 3: test that's used by parole boards, by sentencing boards and
Speaker 3: so forth. It's a Canadian doctor hare that came up.
Speaker 3: A hair h A. R. E came up with this test,
Speaker 3: and so Keil discovered that there are certain physical brain
Speaker 3: abnormalities similar to those that we began to recently see
Speaker 3: in NFL players who have as well frontal lobe injuries,
Speaker 3: and so kill suggests that a lot of serial killers
Speaker 3: are actually not psychopaths or organic psychopaths, but have induced
Speaker 3: psychopathy from head injuries. And we have all these anecdotal
Speaker 3: stories from serial killers of brain injuries, you know, from
Speaker 3: Richard Ramirez to William Herron's to a lot of serial killers.
Speaker 3: There's a record of brain injuries, particularly in frontal lob
Speaker 3: injuries in their childhood history. But now over the recent decade,
Speaker 3: we could actually physically begin to make links between frontal
Speaker 3: lobat normalities and a psychopathy and of course criminal behavior,
Speaker 3: including serial homicide. So certainly, in the case of as
Speaker 3: I like to describe my serial killer, Richard Conningham, one
Speaker 3: of the things that interested me about him was his
Speaker 3: very stable childhood. I mean, here's an individual who both
Speaker 3: his parents were remained married. He came from a middle
Speaker 3: class family. He you know, was a boy scout, a
Speaker 3: choir girl. He had three younger sisters who absolutely adored
Speaker 3: him right to the end. Couldn't believe that he was
Speaker 3: a serial killer, and I couldn't figure out, you know,
Speaker 3: the trauma was. And he certainly claimed to me that
Speaker 3: he had a completely normal childhood, there's nothing wrong in it,
Speaker 3: And indeed I couldn't find anything. But doing a search
Speaker 3: of newspapers, remarkably, I discovered that there's actually a brain
Speaker 3: injury in his history when he's four years old. It's
Speaker 3: so severe that it's reported in the newspapers he's hit
Speaker 3: by a car. He run his head first into a
Speaker 3: car as a four year old kid, and has taken
Speaker 3: serious enough that he's hospitalized, and and and so you know,
Speaker 3: even in you know, the one case that one serial
Speaker 3: killer with with with whom I am having you know,
Speaker 3: conversations with and interviewing and dealing with, this head injury
Speaker 3: scenario raises its its head. Whether if as a result
Speaker 3: of injury or whether there is other causes or that
Speaker 3: kind of brain pattern is left to be seen. But
Speaker 3: right now, that is the X you know. The current explanation,
Speaker 3: because we've got a problem with the trauma model, is that,
Speaker 3: you know, thousands millions of children grow up traumatized, subject
Speaker 3: to abuse, all sorts of horrible things happen to them,
Speaker 3: yet they don't necessarily become serial killers. So what is it?
Speaker 3: What is that X factor? And that remains. The more
Speaker 3: we study serial killers, the less we appear to know.
Speaker 3: We still don't know that X factor. And I write
Speaker 3: one of my books, I say, I think it's too
Speaker 3: early for us to just rule out old fashioned, the
Speaker 3: biblical evil, whatever that might be. You know, maybe one
Speaker 3: day we'll have a scientific firm ford an explanation. But
Speaker 3: we still haven't figured out why so many traumatized children
Speaker 3: end up not being serial killers and the few the do.
Speaker 5: In this book you cover and of course we haven't
Speaker 5: even touched on the examples that you provide in the
Speaker 5: book of infamous serial killers like Dean Coral, Calvin Jackson,
Speaker 5: fairly unknown, you call it the House of Horrors killer
Speaker 5: not so well known at all, David Berkowitz, Rodney Olkila,
Speaker 5: infamous ones, Herbert Mullen, the Die Song Killer, Edmund Kemper,
Speaker 5: Arthur shawcrast of Shawcross, we have John Juan, Corel Corona.
Speaker 5: So you also provide some of these famous and not
Speaker 5: so famous cases and delve into them to show not
Speaker 5: only the influence of pornography and also the shift in
Speaker 5: society and culture and how that influenced their crimes and
Speaker 5: their behavior, but also dramatic examples like Jeffrey Dahmer. We
Speaker 5: don't have much time left in this interview, but can
Speaker 5: you tell us a little bit about Jeffrey Dahmer some
Speaker 5: of the things that you've pointed to and discovered in
Speaker 5: his story that demonstrate some of the things that you
Speaker 5: have expressed, and not only your theory about serial killer surge,
Speaker 5: but also just your study of serial killers in general.
Speaker 3: Well, certainly, I mean Jeffrey Dahmer is on that extreme
Speaker 3: end because he's getting into a very primitive thing, cannibalism,
Speaker 3: and you know, Jeffrey Dahmer, there's two kinds of cannibalism.
Speaker 3: There's you know, nutritional cannibalism you've got to eat and
Speaker 3: there's nothing else but your fellow human being. And then
Speaker 3: you have kind of ritual papalag cannibalism, where this cannibalism
Speaker 3: kind of is inspired by primitive urge, but it's not
Speaker 3: for nutritional purposes. It's it fulfills some other need. And
Speaker 3: in the case of Jeffrey Dahmer, I mean, this was
Speaker 3: an individual who struggled not to kill. He was killing
Speaker 3: essentially to keep the objects of his love close to him.
Speaker 3: He didn't like to be left, and and and and
Speaker 3: so you know, at first he attempts he keeps a
Speaker 3: mannequin with him and and you know, he uses this
Speaker 3: mannequin kind of as a sex doll, but his grandmother
Speaker 3: finds it and forces him to get rid of it.
Speaker 3: But he's struggling not to be killing people. And it's
Speaker 3: not about killing for him, it's about having these people.
Speaker 3: In fact, he had one way he attempts not to
Speaker 3: kill his victims as he attempts to inject battery acid
Speaker 3: into the brain of one of his victims in the
Speaker 3: hope that he can just zombify them and keep them
Speaker 3: in this zombie state without taking their life. And of
Speaker 3: course it doesn't work, and so eventually he begins to
Speaker 3: resort to cannibalism to keep these people with him. It's
Speaker 3: the ultimate taking of a person. So he is collecting
Speaker 3: these corpses that become his love dolls. The killing for
Speaker 3: him is not part of his obsession. It's doesn't give
Speaker 3: him any pleasure at all. It's a chore. It's just
Speaker 3: keeping these people. And because cannibalism is a very primitive urge,
Speaker 3: as is fighting, as is the sexual reproductive impose. And
Speaker 3: if you take these urges and strip away, you know,
Speaker 3: cities and civilization, and you just throw human beings into
Speaker 3: the jungle or into the cave without any of these
Speaker 3: kind of structures of civilization, you know, we are left
Speaker 3: in an animal state. And what do animals do other
Speaker 3: than you know, half sex, eat, and fight, and run away.
Speaker 3: You know, I called it the four apps. Fleeing, fighting, feeding,
Speaker 3: and fucking. These are essential to the survival and evolution
Speaker 3: of any species. And you know, it's we've essentially only
Speaker 3: been civilized out of you know, anthropologists kind of have
Speaker 3: a very wide swap about how long are species of
Speaker 3: human beings Homo sapiens have been around. You know, some
Speaker 3: say it's around one hundred, one hundred thousand years, others saying,
Speaker 3: you know, as long as a million years. But we
Speaker 3: know one thing that we've only become civilized in approximately
Speaker 3: the last twelve thousand years. It's a drop in the bucket.
Speaker 3: Prior to that, we were living out there like cats
Speaker 3: and dogs and every other kind of animal species, including cockroaches,
Speaker 3: and we were all in order to survive, capable of fleeting, fighting, feeding,
Speaker 3: and you know, fornicating. Otherwise, if any one of those
Speaker 3: functions ceased, we wouldn't go around today. Our species would
Speaker 3: be gone. And so I don't think twelve thousand years
Speaker 3: is enough long enough for us to have been you know,
Speaker 3: kind of the mother nature taking that out of our
Speaker 3: human character, our instinct. We still have that instinct. I
Speaker 3: certainly remember as a child, fellow children being extremely violent.
Speaker 3: You know, there was a lot of biting and scratching
Speaker 3: and aggression, you know, among my playmates certainly, And so
Speaker 3: I think we're all born with these impulses and instincts,
Speaker 3: and it's socialization but essentially weeds that instinct out of us. It,
Speaker 3: you know, the rules, morality, religion, law, society begins to
Speaker 3: instill in us inhibitions. We're almost domesticated, so to speak.
Speaker 3: And and so my argument is is probably we're all
Speaker 3: born in the infantile stage as these bundles of potentially raping, killing,
Speaker 3: cannibalistic existences that we have to get unmade from. And
Speaker 3: so what serial killers are essentially is a failure in
Speaker 3: the unmaking of our primitive state. That's basically my argument.
Speaker 3: And sons of sons of Cain. But serial killers are
Speaker 3: not made, they're actually, you know, where the rest of
Speaker 3: us are unmade from being there.
Speaker 5: You talk about all of the reasons and we've talked
Speaker 5: about some of those for this surge of serial killing
Speaker 5: between the seventies and the nineties, And you provide the
Speaker 5: reasons and the precursors and and the the rise up
Speaker 5: before the fifties to the two thousand and some of
Speaker 5: the infamous perpetrators. With giving the reasons for and the
Speaker 5: and the genesis of those serial killers from the seventies
Speaker 5: and nineties, what do you predict for the future based
Speaker 5: on those same theories.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my hypothesis is correct, it's not going to be
Speaker 3: a bright future because we have similar equivalents recently to
Speaker 3: the things that I associate with this surge.
Speaker 4: We have in two.
Speaker 3: Thousand and eight, we have an economic catastrophe very much
Speaker 3: as deep and as injurious as the Great Depression was.
Speaker 3: A lot of families were destroyed by that two thousand
Speaker 3: and eight crash, a lot of children lost their homes,
Speaker 3: ended up and you know, being raised in motels. We have,
Speaker 3: as well, a war that is a war on terror,
Speaker 3: and there therefore is kind of as clandestine in a
Speaker 3: way as the the Second World War was. And during
Speaker 3: the Second World War there was a kind of a
Speaker 3: cultural thing that soldiers, you know, we're not encouraged to
Speaker 3: talk about when they bought home, about what they you know,
Speaker 3: really happened. And of course the war on Terror is
Speaker 3: a clandestrian war also drops this kind of cone of
Speaker 3: silence on the soldiers that fighted it. Often they come
Speaker 3: home and by virtue of the nature of that war,
Speaker 3: they can't talk about it. Moreover, it's not just the
Speaker 3: fathers are coming home, but now it's the mothers as well,
Speaker 3: who sometimes go into combat and experience this this war.
Speaker 3: So there you have right away the double combination that
Speaker 3: I link the you know, sixties seventies, the growing baby
Speaker 3: boomer generation serial fillers too. You have similar kind of scenario,
Speaker 3: but it even gets worse. Only have the trauma of COVID.
Speaker 3: This is you know, we don't know yet what kind
Speaker 3: of psychological impact it's going to have on the young
Speaker 3: and the children. So we'll know in about fifteen years,
Speaker 3: twenty years whether my hypothesis is I hope I'm wrong,
Speaker 3: you know, because if I'm not, then you know that
Speaker 3: serial killer surge we saw between the seventies and nineteen
Speaker 3: nineties is going to look like a day at the
Speaker 3: beach compared to what's coming at us.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, I don't know. Thank you very much Peter
Speaker 5: Vronsky for coming on and talking about your incredible new book,
Speaker 5: American serial Killers The Epidemic Years nineteen fifty to two thousand.
Speaker 5: I know that the book is released today, so thank
Speaker 5: you so much for coming on for this interview. Is
Speaker 5: there a website Amazon page that people might refer to
Speaker 5: and find out more information?
Speaker 3: Well, I have a website Ronsky dot org and Peter
Speaker 3: Ronsky dot com. They it links to my books and
Speaker 3: my work and my bio and so forth, and otherwise.
Speaker 3: The book is available anywhere you would buy books on Amazon, iBooks,
Speaker 3: you know, bookstores will carry it. It's it's out in
Speaker 3: the hardcover. It's my first hardcover book, as supposed to
Speaker 3: kind of a trade soft cover edition, so it is
Speaker 3: out in the hardcover, and it's out as well in
Speaker 3: ebook form on Kindle and so forth. So it's it's
Speaker 3: available every word. Books are so.
Speaker 5: Well. Thank you so much. Peter Vronsky American Serial Killers
Speaker 5: the Epidemic Years nineteen fifty to two thousand, Thank you
Speaker 5: so much for this interview. You have a great evening.
Speaker 3: Good night, thanks Dan, and thanks for having me on.
Speaker 3: Good night great Dan.
Speaker 6: Thanks