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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back today. We're going to be discussing the digital revolution,

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<v Speaker 1>social media, and sociology of screen addiction. With me is

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest screen addict. I know, Ryan, how are you

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<v Speaker 1>doing doing well?

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<v Speaker 2>But I will correct for the audience that caith is

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<v Speaker 2>west in May.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, probably, Yeah, we are.

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<v Speaker 1>We will be talking about screen addiction and all of

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<v Speaker 1>the negative effects this is happening on people. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think we can both be honest and say that we

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<v Speaker 1>are we are affected by this as well, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>we're trying to we're trying to fight back against it.

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<v Speaker 1>I can at least say though that it's it's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of part of my job, it's part of my vocation.

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<v Speaker 1>Whereas you're just like a regular you're a screen addict

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<v Speaker 1>for five likes on Twitter, it's not quite the same.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I could use that excuse of you know, being

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<v Speaker 2>politically active and needing to reach people. But yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>think I am guilty of slight addiction like most other people.

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<v Speaker 3>At what social.

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<v Speaker 1>Media, reaching people on social media?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm too radical for the mainstream.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so where do we want to start it

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<v Speaker 1>with this?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think the starting point is kind of around

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<v Speaker 2>twenty ten. I really remember a sharp distinction between kind

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<v Speaker 2>of when I was leaving school two thousand and eight,

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<v Speaker 2>Facebook was the first.

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<v Speaker 3>Real social media.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there were things before that, like MySpace, but

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<v Speaker 2>that didn't really have any significance.

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<v Speaker 3>It was very basic.

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<v Speaker 2>But Facebook around two thousand and eight when it started

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<v Speaker 2>being launched worldwide other than just America universities, that's really

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<v Speaker 2>when social media started. And around that time I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it functioned in a much more social way than it

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<v Speaker 2>does now. For example, you would, you know, typically be

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<v Speaker 2>invited to someone's eighteenth birthday party or whatever event and

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<v Speaker 2>someone would upload photos from a digital camera, lots of

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<v Speaker 2>group photos photos of the event, and there was also

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<v Speaker 2>functionality for events where you could invite your friends. There

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<v Speaker 2>were lots of promoters at university and other social groups.

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<v Speaker 1>And.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a lot more connection to an actual social

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<v Speaker 2>circle around that time.

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<v Speaker 1>It's funny, it's almost like wholesome in hindsight, even though

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<v Speaker 1>it was seen at the time as.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, people saw it as this really deleterious.

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<v Speaker 1>Thing, but in hindsight, like because it was being used

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<v Speaker 1>to basically augment existing social networks, like the examples you gave, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it was. There was a lot of organizing events like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you've be in groups with your I guess

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<v Speaker 1>for me it would like classmates or yeah, people's work

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<v Speaker 1>colleagues and you know, organized parties around that. There was events,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was it was very like real life based, right,

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<v Speaker 1>like even the you know, people buying and selling stuff

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<v Speaker 1>on there and yeah, organizing parties, organizing charity events.

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<v Speaker 3>But there wasn't.

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<v Speaker 1>The There wasn't really the East Lab phenomenon. It was like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you got your three four hundred, five hundred

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<v Speaker 1>friends and you know, it was it was a way

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<v Speaker 1>where you organize your social circle.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean in those days you even had your top friends,

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<v Speaker 2>so you could see who your you know, closest circle is.

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<v Speaker 2>You could see the relationship statuses. You know, they were

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<v Speaker 2>you know, origin of gossip. And but I think after

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<v Speaker 2>that when the people started using the status to be

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<v Speaker 2>more political and then there were comments being made, and

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<v Speaker 2>this was at a time when society was politically starting

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<v Speaker 2>to polarize. I think that scared a lot of people off.

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<v Speaker 2>And a few years later, once smartphones really picked up,

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<v Speaker 2>the camera quality increased, possibly led by celebrity culture and women.

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<v Speaker 2>I would guess women's desire to avoid conflict that I

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<v Speaker 2>think there was a mass exodus to platforms are Instagram,

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<v Speaker 2>which are really just image based.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Snapchat as well around that period of time. Like

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure of the years here, but I think

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<v Speaker 1>like as you go into the twenty tens, Instagram and

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<v Speaker 1>Snapchat become a lot more popular, and then Instagram just

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<v Speaker 1>starts to completely dominate around the time where meta takes

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<v Speaker 1>it over.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, Snapchat did have a usp for a while, but Zuckerberg,

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<v Speaker 2>as you always does, he just steals the steals a

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<v Speaker 2>concept and then Instagram short stories really started to dominate,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they did quite well with the reels concept,

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<v Speaker 2>which is kind of stealing the TikTok idea. So Zuckerberg

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<v Speaker 2>did very well with acquiring well, he even acquired Instagram originally,

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<v Speaker 2>he just acquired the whole social media apparatus and made

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<v Speaker 2>it work under the meta banner. And even Facebook now,

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<v Speaker 2>which was considered a dead platform, has had kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a renaissance as like a local networking group. You've got

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<v Speaker 2>the marketplace. Boomers are still on there and even they're

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<v Speaker 2>launching their dating now. So that's kind of the way.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a volt.

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<v Speaker 1>But what happens during that period when Instagram becomes more dominant,

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<v Speaker 1>Like you said, it moves to more image based and

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<v Speaker 1>you've the obviously massive improvement in camera quality. But then

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<v Speaker 1>also so it moves to the focus being the follower count.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that became a bigger deal where you know,

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<v Speaker 1>normal people can enter that influencer space. So there's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a midspace where you're not officially an influencer, but

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<v Speaker 1>you can, you know, you can get enough enough popularity

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<v Speaker 1>on social media that it feels like it. And then

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<v Speaker 1>that's I think that's when the heavy kind of algorithmic

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<v Speaker 1>manipulation of people's reward circuitry comes in. It's it's the

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<v Speaker 1>follower counts, and increasingly images and videos are put into

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<v Speaker 1>a global feed rather than just to who's following the user.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have a period of that with Instagram and Twitter.

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter becomes a bit more, you know, it becomes a

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<v Speaker 1>lot more parasocial in terms of celebrities start using it

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<v Speaker 1>just to sound off. It becomes more personalized to them.

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<v Speaker 1>But then I think around the time tiktokis off, that's

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<v Speaker 1>when you get the extreme algorithmic manipulation of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you use these apps and it's it's heavily focused on,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the bursts of dopamine and you know, looking

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<v Speaker 1>for the next poster pops off and very quickly apps

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<v Speaker 1>like Instagram and others mimic some of the most addictive

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<v Speaker 1>features of TikTok.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the the algorithms have definitely become far more aggressive,

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<v Speaker 2>which was TikTok's original innovation. But going back to something

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<v Speaker 2>you just said in terms of the follow account, I

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<v Speaker 2>definitely think women's whole lens of the social world has

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<v Speaker 2>moved not only online but universal, and they are or

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<v Speaker 2>many of them, especially gen Z I've noticed this myself,

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<v Speaker 2>is they live their whole existence.

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<v Speaker 3>Through the lens of Instagram.

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<v Speaker 2>They are many of them posting the most mundane of

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<v Speaker 2>life updates. They they plan their lives around what will

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<v Speaker 2>look good on Instagram. They are literally photographing and video

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<v Speaker 2>in everything and given a daily update. I mean, some

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<v Speaker 2>of these Slavic girls are insane, like you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>Ukrainian refugees. They walk around like they're like they're a

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<v Speaker 2>journalist and they will they will narrate their life to

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<v Speaker 2>the audience like they're like they're the main character in

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<v Speaker 2>some kind of news channel or something. It's it's really bizarre.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it may it may have already peaked. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>possibly guilty of being a bit optimistic now, but I've

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<v Speaker 2>been on that kind of social network less lately, I've

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<v Speaker 2>noticed less of it. But yeah, that's definitely being a

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<v Speaker 2>feature of the last few years, just planning your whole

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<v Speaker 2>life around what you can put on.

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<v Speaker 1>I do think I don't know what the statistics are

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<v Speaker 1>on male versus female usage of these platforms, but I

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<v Speaker 1>would I would imagine take to Instagram, excuse much more female.

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<v Speaker 1>But just as you're saying that, thinking like, really it

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<v Speaker 1>really does fit female psychology that basically Instagram becomes like

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<v Speaker 1>a collage of your life highlights, Like it seems like

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<v Speaker 1>that's something that's much more appealing to the female mind,

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<v Speaker 1>is to create a kind of narrative of these highlights

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<v Speaker 1>of your life, these learning moments, these big experiences you've had.

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<v Speaker 1>Their social media feeds are much more curated that way

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<v Speaker 1>than men's, for example. You know, there's there's like a

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<v Speaker 1>narrative there that they want to build. I wonder how

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<v Speaker 1>much that's affected social life in other ways. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure we'll discuss this again, but you know, one

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<v Speaker 1>thing that comes to mind is how how long people

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<v Speaker 1>are to land family formation. You have to wonder how

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<v Speaker 1>much of that as a factor when there's a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of like you have to collect x number of experiences

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<v Speaker 1>in your twenties and kind of build us up.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, definitely.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean my theory of female psychology is that they

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<v Speaker 2>kind of see their life far more as a story book.

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<v Speaker 2>And as you say, like, you know, their youthful prime

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<v Speaker 2>is this opportunity to gather the most attention, create these

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<v Speaker 2>unique experiences. And you know, every time that they post,

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<v Speaker 2>they're being socially validated, which is really what women run on.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, every post is feedback that gives them oxytocin serotonin.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes them feel close to people. It's not just

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<v Speaker 2>men simpin and you know try and get them on

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<v Speaker 2>a date or whatever. It's the sisterhood validation. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's so much, you know, so many neurochemicals feeding into

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<v Speaker 2>this technological integration that we're now going through as a species.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just think, you know, we're fifteen or so

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<v Speaker 2>years into this and the boomers are kind of blissfully

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<v Speaker 2>unaware with how much this is affecting the younger generations,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's intrinsically linked with the birth rate collapse. And

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, this whole storybook mentality and collecting experiences

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<v Speaker 2>in the youth is definitely exacerbating this extended childhood before

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<v Speaker 2>family formation can even occur. And it also inhibits family

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<v Speaker 2>formation because the whole lens of attraction and sexual selection

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<v Speaker 2>is also being shifted. But I don't think we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to go too much into that today, but yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 2>certainly causing a lot of problems socially.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we will cover the fertility crisis more in depth

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<v Speaker 1>in a sense, we'll probably touch on these topics a

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<v Speaker 1>lot again. But yeah, it's really it's two core aspects.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, one is the way you described it with

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<v Speaker 1>the storybook approach to life. But then the other thing

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<v Speaker 1>is the neurochemical aspect of it, where you know, women

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<v Speaker 1>are primed for these neurochemical rewards, whether it's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>oxytocin from forming close bonds or dopamine, the reward from

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<v Speaker 1>kind of the chase or the feeling of being desired,

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<v Speaker 1>And traditionally, obviously this was provided by one person through courtship,

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<v Speaker 1>through relationships came from a pool of a small community,

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<v Speaker 1>and so you know, to get those rewards, you had

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<v Speaker 1>to engage in pair bonding, right, you had to have

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<v Speaker 1>close relationships. But now yes, it's abstracted. You just kind

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<v Speaker 1>of collected from this global marketplace, and that has profound

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<v Speaker 1>effects on family formation, which we'll discuss again, but also

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<v Speaker 1>even just on the effect of individual communities the way

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<v Speaker 1>the way it adomizes people Like I think everyone can

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<v Speaker 1>observe the way traditional social life. Maybe it's funny to

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<v Speaker 1>use traditional for it, but even you know, the the

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<v Speaker 1>customs of going out to pubs and clubs that's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of dying among gen Z and gen Elfhan. There's all

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<v Speaker 1>sorts of statistics on this. Now gen Z are the

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the lowest alcohol drinking generation ever, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely tanking in the trends. You know, you can observe

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<v Speaker 1>in Ireland, for example, I know different small towns and

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<v Speaker 1>cities where former clubs and bars are closed and there

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<v Speaker 1>just isn't really a ute scene for that anymore. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's that's a huge part of it is

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<v Speaker 1>is women are much more drawn to find than those

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<v Speaker 1>rewards on social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, absolutely the men follow female desire. So if

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<v Speaker 2>women are checking out because you know they're getting those

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<v Speaker 2>neurochemical hits elsewhere. Why would the men go out drinking

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<v Speaker 2>at great expense if you know there are no women there.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there was a photo posted on X a

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<v Speaker 2>few months ago. It's what used to be an incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>busy a couple of pubs in Leicester Square, middle of London,

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<v Speaker 2>and I remember, you know, being like twenty years old

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<v Speaker 2>and seeing the queues like right out the door, just

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<v Speaker 2>you know, one hundred eighteen year old girls queuing up

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<v Speaker 2>to get in, and the photo just it's completely dead,

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<v Speaker 2>no one's out.

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<v Speaker 1>I could think of the same thing in the space

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<v Speaker 1>of ten years. Places that, yeah, every Friday and Saturday

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<v Speaker 1>were well, I know they're.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not just those kind of youth pubs or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also the nightclub scene. It's completely dying. I used

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<v Speaker 2>to be involved in that, and I've seen DJs posting

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<v Speaker 2>that there's no work anymore. So I'm surprised that even

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<v Speaker 2>that scene is dying. And yeah, you mentioned alcohol. The

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the markets realize this and a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these alcohol conglomerates are trading expecting terminal decline. But when

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<v Speaker 2>you get a situation like this, where there's a lack

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<v Speaker 2>of youth socializing, you get social circle collapse, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to be socially active, you kind of need like a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of groups to hang out with. You know, you

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<v Speaker 2>pick up new people here and there that you like

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<v Speaker 2>because you've met them at different events. But if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't engage, you just get huge spirals of the client.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, you know, rural areas declining and they lose

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<v Speaker 2>their services and the community collapse because no one the

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<v Speaker 2>group isn't big enough to sustain a perpetual cycle of sociability.

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<v Speaker 2>So there the youthhor in trouble, I would say, And

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know what, what can they really do if

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<v Speaker 2>this situation is occurring. It's like what one on one

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<v Speaker 2>dating with anonymous people and apps? And again that's not

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<v Speaker 2>really stimulating to women because there's no real social proof.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think their theory of mind is as good

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<v Speaker 2>as they claim. They're not very good at reading. Really

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<v Speaker 2>what the intent of you know, whatever these men are

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<v Speaker 2>claiming they are on on the apps.

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<v Speaker 1>So I know you're dying to fire off to stake

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<v Speaker 1>you have at some point about female empathy and emotional intelligence.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I will say that I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>done women too much, but yeah, it's it's a dark time,

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, and it's it's hard to even find

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<v Speaker 2>solutions for this kind of crisis.

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<v Speaker 1>When you mentioned that as well, in terms of like

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<v Speaker 1>rural communities that are kind of being left behind and

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<v Speaker 1>losing a certain vitality or social life they once had,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I do think of a certain kind of person,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, especially when I think of like rural Ireland,

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<v Speaker 1>I think of a certain type of person that would

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<v Speaker 1>have had an act of social life in those areas

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<v Speaker 1>that it is disappearing now. And when I think of

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of person that's left behind by that, it's

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<v Speaker 1>really the same kind of person that's being left behind

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<v Speaker 1>with these new Daton dynamics. If you think of, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with social media, we're really moving back to a case

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<v Speaker 1>of female sexual selection, and certain traits are selected for

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<v Speaker 1>and certain traits are not that once made it true.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, certainly men that are more brash, arrogant,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, van that can put themselves out there more,

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<v Speaker 1>that can get a follow and that can get attention rewarded,

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<v Speaker 1>that have something remarkable about them. But if you think

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<v Speaker 1>about the kind of person that is left behind that

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<v Speaker 1>not very long ago would have successfully started a family

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, been respected in his community. There is

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<v Speaker 1>a certain type of maybe industrious and functional and reliable,

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<v Speaker 1>but not especially remarkable kind of man. And that's really

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<v Speaker 1>the same kind of person that's been left behind by

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<v Speaker 1>this collapse in social dynamics where things are moving towards

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00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.119
<v Speaker 1>reward and the you know, social movers and shakers, people

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00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:39.599
<v Speaker 1>that are a bit more entrepreneurial in this environment. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the same kind of honest assault of the earth

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<v Speaker 1>decent people that are being left behind in this I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, certainly, the you know, the the blue collar guy

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<v Speaker 2>that goes down to the local pub and picks one

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00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:58.799
<v Speaker 2>of the girls there and you know, start as a family.

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<v Speaker 2>That way is kind of over. And now because the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the whole dynamic has changed. Men have to

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<v Speaker 2>play the female game. They need to have the online clout,

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<v Speaker 2>need to have a created profile, they need to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>get professional photos or whatever. And it's just you know,

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00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:24.759
<v Speaker 2>a game theory of you know, female preferences, and you know,

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00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:31.119
<v Speaker 2>masculinity itself is being lost in that process, and there

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00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:36.039
<v Speaker 2>aren't any way many ways around it. You know, there's

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00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:38.759
<v Speaker 2>been kind of a movement in the last few years like, oh,

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00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.319
<v Speaker 2>just go and approach girls in real life. Bro, Well,

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00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.279
<v Speaker 2>it's not that simple, because a you have to fit

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00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.279
<v Speaker 2>the profile that they're seeing online as desirable. A lot

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00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:56.079
<v Speaker 2>be they're anti social themselves because they're not even socially trained,

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00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.640
<v Speaker 2>so many of them are zogged out on TikTok or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>One story a girl I was speaking to a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of years ago. She said she was invited on a

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<v Speaker 2>trip with her friends for New Year and they chose

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<v Speaker 2>to go to some not very nice place in the UK,

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00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.480
<v Speaker 2>which I thought was funny in itself, but I was

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00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.880
<v Speaker 2>like when she came back, I was, Oh, how's your trip,

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00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.519
<v Speaker 2>and she was like, Oh, it was terrible. They just

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<v Speaker 2>were on TikTok the whole time, and I went out

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00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and tried the local food on my own and they

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00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.799
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to come. I was just like, wow, Like,

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00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:38.519
<v Speaker 2>this is gen z women eccentral. And you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>do any of these boomer politicians make any legislation or

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<v Speaker 2>create any safety net against this When they look at

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00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.680
<v Speaker 2>the fertility rate and apply policy, they just throw money

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<v Speaker 2>at the problem. No, this is this is a deep

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<v Speaker 2>cultural problem and the whole lens of women's social life

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<v Speaker 2>being shifted radically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm sure everyone listening will probably have similarly relevant anecdotes,

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<v Speaker 1>but I mean we're talking about really gen Z here,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's one thing, but we're looking at what comes

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<v Speaker 1>after him. Note with Generation Alpha, I mean, this is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be another level again where it's a generation

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<v Speaker 1>that's totally raised with this as such as central Paraderal

334
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.400
<v Speaker 1>lives in a way it wasn't even for gen Z,

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<v Speaker 1>and the effects of that, even cognitively are going to

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<v Speaker 1>be profound.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The UK media regulator Offcom released shocking figures last summer

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<v Speaker 2>about the tablet use by children in the UK. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>the data is disgusting. Frankly, eight of zero to two

341
00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:04.039
<v Speaker 2>year olds have a personal tablet. Nineteen percent of three

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<v Speaker 2>to five three to five year olds have a mobile phone.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if that is smartphones only or they

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00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.039
<v Speaker 2>have like a slip a flip phone to call them

345
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.000
<v Speaker 2>at score or something, but that was the headline figure.

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<v Speaker 2>In the three to five year old bracket. The average

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<v Speaker 2>screen time per day is over six hours. Bear in

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<v Speaker 2>mind that UK children start score four, so that is

349
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, how much time do they even have at home?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe the entire home time is being taken up by

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<v Speaker 2>screen time. And that's the average. That's the average. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't even the worst of it. Thirty In one

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<v Speaker 2>another study of one thousand parents, thirty four percent admitted

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<v Speaker 2>that they couldn't get their child to eat without showing

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<v Speaker 2>it a screen at the same time, and I think

356
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<v Speaker 2>it was around forty five percent admit using the screen

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00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.920
<v Speaker 2>to calm the child down. And I witnessed us myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a friend he invited me around for dinner

359
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<v Speaker 2>and his two year old boy absolutely crashed out because

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00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>his mum said enough pepper pig for today, and he

361
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:24.200
<v Speaker 2>literally had a tantrum for two or two or three hours.

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<v Speaker 2>And my friend at that point realized that there was

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<v Speaker 2>a serious problem and the screen got completely taken away,

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00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:40.359
<v Speaker 2>never used again. Apparently he's doing better than ever. So

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<v Speaker 2>that is the kind of thing that's going on with

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<v Speaker 2>young children in the UK, and the behavioral disorders and

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<v Speaker 2>verbalization disorders are off.

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<v Speaker 3>The charts now.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's something like in the thirties or around

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<v Speaker 2>forty percent having behavioral disord orders as a result of this.

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<v Speaker 2>The ones in the highest bracket of use. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there's obvious obvious problems that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is those statistics are insaying, because if the

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<v Speaker 1>average is like five or six errors, I mean there

375
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<v Speaker 1>is going to be a cohort of those kids where

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<v Speaker 1>the parents have some principle and and don't let them

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<v Speaker 1>use the phones at all, which means that if you

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<v Speaker 1>exclude those, presumably the amount of time is wall longer

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<v Speaker 1>that you just have maybe a majority of kids that

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<v Speaker 1>are basically just on screens the entire time they're outside school.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's looking that way.

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<v Speaker 2>And even if you go out outside, you'll see prams

383
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<v Speaker 2>now have a pad holder and the like. A young

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00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:51.400
<v Speaker 2>baby will be shown a pad of whatever entertainment just

385
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.480
<v Speaker 2>to stop them crying. So it's become it's become a

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00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:00.519
<v Speaker 2>replacement for maternal care and touch and whatever else a

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00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.759
<v Speaker 2>baby needs, and it's just oh, just train your brain

388
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<v Speaker 2>on the images.

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00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:07.319
<v Speaker 3>You know.

390
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<v Speaker 2>I don't know exactly what they'll watch him, but I

391
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.839
<v Speaker 2>do know that neurological development in babies and young children

392
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:23.960
<v Speaker 2>is incredibly important. There's one neurologist, Tomasello. He's got a

393
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:31.319
<v Speaker 2>theory or science of the nine month neurological revolution. It's

394
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:38.720
<v Speaker 2>been in our species even pre Homo sapien I think

395
00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:43.000
<v Speaker 2>it was the Homo heidelbergensis, one of the proto of

396
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:49.759
<v Speaker 2>human types. But that's the sciences that we learned shared

397
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:55.480
<v Speaker 2>intentionality around nine months old, where the you know, the

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00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:59.480
<v Speaker 2>adult will show an object and follow the object with

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00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:04.079
<v Speaker 2>the eye, and the child starts to follow the eye

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00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:09.079
<v Speaker 2>of the parent. And the eyes are incredibly important in

401
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:12.400
<v Speaker 2>terms of neurological development. The eyes are wired into the

402
00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:19.400
<v Speaker 2>brain and you know, linked linked to the brain and

403
00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:26.000
<v Speaker 2>neural pathways in very profound ways. And if this neurological

404
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:33.640
<v Speaker 2>development is replaced with passive consumption rather than intentional learning,

405
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.359
<v Speaker 2>there is actually a huge deficit in white matter development.

406
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:43.519
<v Speaker 2>So the brain is literally not developing properly. And we

407
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<v Speaker 2>don't even know what those children are going to be

408
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>like when they should become functional adults.

409
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.559
<v Speaker 3>They could be basically retarded.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I of don't think as well. I have

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<v Speaker 1>heard psychologists talk about this, the importance of border for

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00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:06.440
<v Speaker 1>childhood development, especially in terms of developing creativity. And you know,

413
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:09.799
<v Speaker 1>when kids are bored, I mean typically they invent games,

414
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.599
<v Speaker 1>and you know, they learn things like cooperation and social skills.

415
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, they do this with other kids and they

416
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.000
<v Speaker 1>learn to set rules and create structures and so on.

417
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:24.559
<v Speaker 1>But there's just so many ways in which, you know,

418
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:28.279
<v Speaker 1>the creative acts that kids come up with when they're

419
00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 1>bored it is important for their development because it's it's

420
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:32.759
<v Speaker 1>kind of learning on the fly, like it's it's learning

421
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:38.240
<v Speaker 1>actively having to adapt to situations, not just pre approved

422
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 1>set games they're established for you by a teacher or

423
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.039
<v Speaker 1>parent or whatever. But that that's so vital for childhood

424
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:48.440
<v Speaker 1>development in a sense, it's probably there's probably even more

425
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.799
<v Speaker 1>going on there than we realize, just because of how

426
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 1>much of childhood development traditionally has come through that. But

427
00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Speaker 1>we've basically eliminated boredom, right, like you know, you get

428
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:01.799
<v Speaker 1>you give the example the kid on the iPad.

429
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:04.720
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of people will have observed that.

430
00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.839
<v Speaker 1>That, you know, young kids where you take an iPad

431
00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 1>of them and it's like, you know, it's like taking

432
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.599
<v Speaker 1>Heroin off a Heroin addict. But whether it's the screens

433
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:19.079
<v Speaker 1>or other forms of technological entertainment, boredom is is kind

434
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:21.319
<v Speaker 1>of absent for children now and if it, if it

435
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 1>comes up, they're going to kick up a big fuss,

436
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.359
<v Speaker 1>and the parents are probably going to deal with very

437
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.680
<v Speaker 1>quickly because you know, they're busy themselves and they want

438
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:31.519
<v Speaker 1>to get on with whatever they're doing. They want to

439
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 1>get back to their social media enjoyment. But I think

440
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:37.400
<v Speaker 1>that's I think that's going to be profound in the

441
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.880
<v Speaker 1>effect it has in this generation.

442
00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:42.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what, what what did you do as a child.

443
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I did watch a lot of TV, or

444
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>so my mom says, Thomas the Tank Engine. But I

445
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:54.240
<v Speaker 2>also remember playing with very mechanical toys, and I grew

446
00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:58.799
<v Speaker 2>up with my cousins and my little brother, and you

447
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:02.880
<v Speaker 2>know Jonathan Hyatt about the need for children to have

448
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 2>rough play and learn cooperation, and you know, I went

449
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.079
<v Speaker 2>to nursery at a young age, and I had my

450
00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 2>granddad in the house that I did crosswords and puzzles

451
00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 2>with and stuff. And I don't know how many children

452
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.759
<v Speaker 2>are even getting access to that, because you know, the

453
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.599
<v Speaker 2>families are smaller. It's like smaller nuclear families, maybe even

454
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:31.960
<v Speaker 2>one child, you know, no extended family around. I think

455
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.279
<v Speaker 2>children are probably still going to the play schools, but

456
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.799
<v Speaker 2>do they even have the skill to socialize in the

457
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.519
<v Speaker 2>play school if they've been watching the screen for the

458
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 2>two years prior. So you know, I'm not an expert

459
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:47.960
<v Speaker 2>in this field. I'm just you know, ringing the alarm

460
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:48.839
<v Speaker 2>bells really, but.

461
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well there, I mean there's a lot of factors

462
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:53.559
<v Speaker 1>that are kind of compounding on each other when it

463
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:58.240
<v Speaker 1>comes to this as well, because you know, things are

464
00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:01.279
<v Speaker 1>more urbanized, people living in suburbs more, there isn't as

465
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:05.359
<v Speaker 1>much open space for kids to explore. And then there's

466
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:08.039
<v Speaker 1>a decline and a lack of social trusts as well.

467
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:09.279
<v Speaker 3>I think kids.

468
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.079
<v Speaker 1>Aren't running off playing with their neighbors so much anymore.

469
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.599
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people don't even know their neighbors or

470
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:18.000
<v Speaker 1>ever ever interact with them. And then, of course, you know,

471
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Western societies are more multicultural. And Robert Putnam's famous study

472
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Bawling Alone, where he studied the sociological effects of increased diversity,

473
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:32.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the number one thing was decline and social trust,

474
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:35.599
<v Speaker 1>but the effect that he called it on the individual

475
00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:39.240
<v Speaker 1>level was the huddling effect, where people people spend more

476
00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:42.000
<v Speaker 1>time indoors, they do more solitary activities, you know, hence

477
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the name bawling Alone. But I think you know that

478
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:50.720
<v Speaker 1>feeds into this retreat into technology as well. But I mean, yeah,

479
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.440
<v Speaker 1>you can imagine it. It's got to be quite difficult

480
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.440
<v Speaker 1>raised in a child because it's also there's also the

481
00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:01.839
<v Speaker 1>compounding effect of when people have fewer children across society,

482
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:08.160
<v Speaker 1>smaller families becoming the norm itself discourages family formation because

483
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:12.400
<v Speaker 1>the society is directed less towards the needs of families,

484
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:19.359
<v Speaker 1>it's less friendly of an environment for children. And then again, yeah,

485
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:21.960
<v Speaker 1>if you're looking to socialize your kids, I mean, one

486
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.319
<v Speaker 1>thing is there's just less children around, right, Yeah.

487
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:29.200
<v Speaker 2>There does seem to be this feedback loop of more

488
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:34.640
<v Speaker 2>atomized society leads to more less children, leads to more

489
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:40.079
<v Speaker 2>online time, and in general, there is this perception that

490
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:45.279
<v Speaker 2>there is just far less risk by you know, socializing

491
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.599
<v Speaker 2>alone digitally.

492
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:53.039
<v Speaker 1>That doesn't make me think not the derail, But when

493
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.759
<v Speaker 1>did it become such a thing, Because if you think back,

494
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.680
<v Speaker 1>like it's like one generation prior to us, the kids

495
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:01.200
<v Speaker 1>just spent all their time outdoors apparently, and you know,

496
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.519
<v Speaker 1>would leave in the morning and.

497
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:03.279
<v Speaker 3>Come back in the evening.

498
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 1>When when did the peedo scare become such a thing,

499
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Where like while they were started telling their kids like

500
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.440
<v Speaker 1>if you know, if you play alone like a pedophile

501
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:13.960
<v Speaker 1>that was going to take you. That seemed that seemed

502
00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:17.480
<v Speaker 1>to in one generation become kind of the big concern.

503
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.599
<v Speaker 2>I remember it around the town of Millennium. I mean

504
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:27.759
<v Speaker 2>I was always outside playing football. I was so addicted

505
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.720
<v Speaker 2>to football. I would even look for games with random

506
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:33.880
<v Speaker 2>other kids. You know, you'd have like a vague idea

507
00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:36.240
<v Speaker 2>of like who the other kids in the town were,

508
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.039
<v Speaker 2>and you could kind of say, like you knew someone

509
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 2>and we could you know, start a game together or whatever.

510
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.559
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think like Murdock's tabloid press and pedo

511
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 2>scare that really took off around then because you know,

512
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>it's this usual thing that or the media do to

513
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, cause outrage, cars, cause shock scare people, and

514
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:04.960
<v Speaker 2>then people don't want to miss out on the latest dangers.

515
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.759
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, that that that became a huge thing in

516
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:10.519
<v Speaker 2>the late nineties. I remember brass I even did a

517
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:15.000
<v Speaker 2>comedy episode on it that that's quite a dark British

518
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.799
<v Speaker 2>comedy that would certainly not be aired now. But they

519
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:22.839
<v Speaker 2>did a special called Ptero Geddon and yeah, that that

520
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:25.279
<v Speaker 2>was I think that ended up getting banned or something,

521
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:29.680
<v Speaker 2>but that was kind of a mockery of that whole

522
00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:32.039
<v Speaker 2>New line of news.

523
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't know, does that tone which just like

524
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:42.160
<v Speaker 1>the female true chrime obsession where you know, any isolated

525
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.960
<v Speaker 1>stories of kids getting taken like that seems to get

526
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.240
<v Speaker 1>blown up so much and talked about so much, and

527
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:51.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, like the medal McCann story just like went

528
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.079
<v Speaker 1>on and on and on. Or you know, maybe maybe

529
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:58.119
<v Speaker 1>it is just a function of like more multicultural outami

530
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.359
<v Speaker 1>societies where you know, I mean there is something to

531
00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:03.440
<v Speaker 1>do it. Like I said, people don't know their neighbors

532
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.480
<v Speaker 1>so much anymore. So Yeah, I mean, I guess on

533
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:08.079
<v Speaker 1>the one hand, kids were going out morning and evening,

534
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:10.480
<v Speaker 1>but at the same time, you know, the parents knew

535
00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:13.400
<v Speaker 1>everyone else that lives and whether it was the you know,

536
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:17.559
<v Speaker 1>the the block of flats or the suburb or whatever,

537
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.320
<v Speaker 1>they did actually know all their neighbors.

538
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:20.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

539
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.559
<v Speaker 2>And when I was growing up, people would leave their

540
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.400
<v Speaker 2>kids with the neighbors or you know, with their sibling.

541
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, my mum went back to work when I

542
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:33.400
<v Speaker 2>was two and she'd leave me with her sister, and

543
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.639
<v Speaker 2>I grew up with my cousin around the same age.

544
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:40.840
<v Speaker 2>But now the one of the political buzzwords is childcare.

545
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, every manifesto has to promise x amount of

546
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.079
<v Speaker 2>free childcare. It's just it's just a whole breakdown of

547
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:54.079
<v Speaker 2>a you know, normal family, social structure, and trust in society.

548
00:34:54.239 --> 00:35:00.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, technology is certainly playing into that. Going

549
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:04.159
<v Speaker 2>back to the screen time statistics in gen Z, eighty

550
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 2>two percent believe they are addicted to these platforms and

551
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.400
<v Speaker 2>over ten percent have clinical addiction. I mean, in terms

552
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:17.599
<v Speaker 2>of the type of content that people are spending their

553
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:27.639
<v Speaker 2>time on, it's incredibly dopaminergic reward centered. So the dopamine

554
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:36.800
<v Speaker 2>system works in terms of anticipate anticipation. If you get

555
00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.920
<v Speaker 2>content that you're not particularly interested in and you'll constantly

556
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.079
<v Speaker 2>feel like you're searching for it, and then you find

557
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:46.440
<v Speaker 2>something that interests you, your dopamine rewards you. It makes

558
00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:50.360
<v Speaker 2>you feel good because you've gone through this exploration, this

559
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:54.079
<v Speaker 2>journey to get a reward. I mean, you know, that's

560
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:57.760
<v Speaker 2>in our evolution because our ancestors went and did difficult things,

561
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:02.000
<v Speaker 2>explored new lands and just covered new food sources and

562
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.280
<v Speaker 2>one battles or you know, whatever they did to survive.

563
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.840
<v Speaker 2>But now that whole neurological system is being redirected into

564
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.719
<v Speaker 2>looking at entertaining videos online and that's now I think

565
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, hundreds of millions of short videos are

566
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 2>being watched every day. You know, TikTok is the most

567
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:30.119
<v Speaker 2>extreme version of that. You mentioned snapchat earlier. If you

568
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.159
<v Speaker 2>are at a bus or train station and you see

569
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.199
<v Speaker 2>a young girl and you look over her screen and

570
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.920
<v Speaker 2>see what she's doing, often you'll see them just flicking

571
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.480
<v Speaker 2>through like their entire contact list with their thumb, like

572
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:47.719
<v Speaker 2>super quickly, and they're not they're not even stopping on

573
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:53.719
<v Speaker 2>a second. I think it's because the female especially needs

574
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.039
<v Speaker 2>to see everything that's going on in her social world.

575
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.519
<v Speaker 2>She needs to see every photo, every bit of news,

576
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:05.440
<v Speaker 2>every up day, every gossip, and it just completely zogged out,

577
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.639
<v Speaker 2>like they're not aware of their surroundings. It's like, you know,

578
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:12.239
<v Speaker 2>they're probably giving themselves neck ache from looking down all

579
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:20.519
<v Speaker 2>the time. I mean, yeah, but it's you know, this

580
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:24.679
<v Speaker 2>is really changing the nature of human existence itself. And

581
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:30.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, as we say, leading to complete social atomization,

582
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:37.159
<v Speaker 2>collapse of social circles, and you know, families are not

583
00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:39.920
<v Speaker 2>being created, relationships are not being created as a result.

584
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:42.679
<v Speaker 2>So it's intrinsically linked to nationalism, and that's why we're

585
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:43.199
<v Speaker 2>covering it.

586
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, people have been sounding the alarm on these

587
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.400
<v Speaker 1>trends for a while, and you know, we've talked about

588
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:55.599
<v Speaker 1>observable things here fallen attention span and lower socialization and

589
00:37:55.639 --> 00:38:01.519
<v Speaker 1>so on, but you know, things have basically continued as normal, right.

590
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Intelligence hasn't especially declined between generations. People still graduate university

591
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.280
<v Speaker 1>and so on. But in terms of real world effects,

592
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 1>this is starting to have now where we're seeing really

593
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:18.599
<v Speaker 1>profound downstream effects of these trends. There's one study I

594
00:38:18.599 --> 00:38:21.800
<v Speaker 1>think that's really interesting in this regard. It came out

595
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:23.559
<v Speaker 1>a couple of years ago. It's called they Don't Read

596
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:26.199
<v Speaker 1>very Well, and so some of the details of it

597
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:30.400
<v Speaker 1>went kind of semi viral on X and substack last year,

598
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.800
<v Speaker 1>and I found this absolutely staggering. But essentially it studied

599
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.559
<v Speaker 1>English graduates. So these were people majoring in English in

600
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.880
<v Speaker 1>an American university and they had actually above average grades.

601
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:49.679
<v Speaker 1>And it studied whether they could decipher seven paragraphs from

602
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 1>a Dickens text. So all they had to do read

603
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:57.760
<v Speaker 1>these paragraphs and explain back to the person examining them

604
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:00.480
<v Speaker 1>what Dickens is saying. Now, they had access to their

605
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:03.800
<v Speaker 1>smartphones and the dictionary, so they could do any amount

606
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:07.480
<v Speaker 1>of research they want get the different definition of every

607
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:11.440
<v Speaker 1>individual word, and the result is quite sagrid. So the

608
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:15.440
<v Speaker 1>results were fifty eight percent understood very little of the

609
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.800
<v Speaker 1>passages and would not have been able to finish the book.

610
00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:24.519
<v Speaker 1>These are English graduates. Thirty eight percent understood about half

611
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:29.360
<v Speaker 1>the sentences and five percent I think it was four

612
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.079
<v Speaker 1>people out of eighty five surveyed. Five percent could understand

613
00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:38.800
<v Speaker 1>all seven paragraphs, and the first group the problematic readers

614
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:43.519
<v Speaker 1>to fifty eight percent. They literally they could not differentiate

615
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:48.880
<v Speaker 1>between literal and figurative speech. So I think one example

616
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.960
<v Speaker 1>in the Dickens text, he was describing a guy sitting

617
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.519
<v Speaker 1>down and he had great whiskers, and so this fifty

618
00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:01.880
<v Speaker 1>eight percent couldn't understand that this the Dickens creating a

619
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 1>description of his mustache. They thought that he was sitting

620
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:07.000
<v Speaker 1>down with a cat named whiskers. Right, So this is

621
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:11.320
<v Speaker 1>the kind of thing. And again these are English graduates. Now,

622
00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 1>the statistics on graduates from college generally are also very concerning.

623
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.480
<v Speaker 1>They say something like eighty percent or functionally illiterate. Now

624
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.519
<v Speaker 1>you can get into what that means in terms of

625
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:27.800
<v Speaker 1>obviously they can read, but it's a question of how

626
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:30.960
<v Speaker 1>well they understand texts, how much they can decipher language

627
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 1>patterns and so on. But this is a much more

628
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 1>I think a profound study, because this is telling you

629
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:40.000
<v Speaker 1>exactly what they're looking at and what they're coming back with.

630
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:44.320
<v Speaker 1>And again, these are English graduates. Most of these people

631
00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:48.519
<v Speaker 1>are going to have degrees in English, and only five

632
00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:53.000
<v Speaker 1>percent of them can read Dickens and understand it consistently.

633
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:54.760
<v Speaker 3>Is this in the United States?

634
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, in a university in Kentucky, where again they actually

635
00:40:58.920 --> 00:40:59.920
<v Speaker 1>have above average gray.

636
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:01.559
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

637
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:08.079
<v Speaker 2>I mean Dickens doesn't even have a high reading age.

638
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.039
<v Speaker 2>It was recommended to children when I was growing up.

639
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I can't say I'm hugely surprised, though. I had a

640
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:23.280
<v Speaker 2>friend he was a senior PhD student marking papers about

641
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 2>a decade ago, and he said the students were complete morons,

642
00:41:30.920 --> 00:41:34.119
<v Speaker 2>and that was a top university in the UK, top twenty,

643
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.679
<v Speaker 2>and he said they couldn't write, they couldn't form ideas.

644
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how much of this is down to

645
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:41.960
<v Speaker 2>technology or what's well.

646
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I spoke to someone that used to be a

647
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:49.119
<v Speaker 1>university lecturer in philosophy and he was saying, you wouldn't

648
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:53.599
<v Speaker 1>believe how poor the average undergrad is even twenty years ago.

649
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:56.639
<v Speaker 1>But he said he speaks to people that he knew

650
00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:59.239
<v Speaker 1>from his time teaching that are still doing it, and

651
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.920
<v Speaker 1>they said to him, you would not be able to

652
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 1>comprehend the level of declient since you were teaching here

653
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.880
<v Speaker 1>twenty years ago. It's night and day like. Essentially, these

654
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.760
<v Speaker 1>students are hopeless, and I think it is technologically induced

655
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:16.440
<v Speaker 1>because average intelligence, like I said, has not really gone

656
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.519
<v Speaker 1>down that much in so far as it has if

657
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 1>you look at Western populations. I think there's a demographic

658
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:25.760
<v Speaker 1>angle there, but there really isn't a noticeable decline, and

659
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:29.920
<v Speaker 1>yet people are functionally illiterate, and you know, part of

660
00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:34.039
<v Speaker 1>it is just reading less. I think about half the

661
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:37.760
<v Speaker 1>number of adolescents now read books for enjoyment that would

662
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:41.320
<v Speaker 1>have in the nineteen nineties. I think is the statistic.

663
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:46.119
<v Speaker 1>But there's also there's all sorts of ways that the

664
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 1>constant use of technology, especially for short form content, rewire

665
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:56.079
<v Speaker 1>our brains in ways that do push us towards illiteracy,

666
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:58.800
<v Speaker 1>especially if it's at a young development age. I mean

667
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.320
<v Speaker 1>there's you know, there's some and called cognitive patience, which

668
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.159
<v Speaker 1>is very important for reading that you can you know,

669
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 1>sit and kind of stew on a on a sentence

670
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:12.039
<v Speaker 1>or a paragraph and taking the understanding that goes down

671
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.519
<v Speaker 1>with use of technology. They even monitor people in the

672
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.519
<v Speaker 1>use social media to read that there's fewer size you know,

673
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:24.320
<v Speaker 1>there's there's which is a sign of kind of refocusing

674
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.480
<v Speaker 1>and taking in text. And people carry over these habits

675
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:30.800
<v Speaker 1>to longer texts where they get in the habit of

676
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:33.760
<v Speaker 1>of scanning information very quickly. And when we you know,

677
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:36.599
<v Speaker 1>when we look for information or when we read something online,

678
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:38.599
<v Speaker 1>get in the habit of of just scanning it for

679
00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:42.719
<v Speaker 1>essential information. And people carry that over to longer texts

680
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:46.199
<v Speaker 1>and books to the point that they really can't focus

681
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.519
<v Speaker 1>on taking in an entire paragraph. They take these, uh,

682
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.880
<v Speaker 1>these scanning tendencies over with them, And yeah, I mean,

683
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.119
<v Speaker 1>you do really have to train your brain in a

684
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.960
<v Speaker 1>certain way, especially in youth too, to learn to read.

685
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:07.119
<v Speaker 1>So it's not surprising. Another statistic is that seventeen percent

686
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:11.280
<v Speaker 1>of students are given a full book to read as

687
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.079
<v Speaker 1>they go through schooling in the US now because increasingly

688
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:20.920
<v Speaker 1>teachers have moved to teaching English through you know, assigning blurbs, blogs,

689
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:26.119
<v Speaker 1>excerpts from books. But people rarely read full books anymore.

690
00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:28.960
<v Speaker 1>And of course, I mean this is twenty twenty four,

691
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:33.920
<v Speaker 1>this is before everyone began using chatch GPT for all

692
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.880
<v Speaker 1>of their assignments and for all of their learning. So

693
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:38.760
<v Speaker 1>any of those trends are going to be far worse

694
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 1>now because these are people that would have went through say,

695
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.119
<v Speaker 1>high school, and they would have actually done homework and

696
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:50.880
<v Speaker 1>read texts that were assigned. Now, with the widespread use

697
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.880
<v Speaker 1>of llms, they wouldn't even be doing that in their

698
00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:57.480
<v Speaker 1>development right, They'll just be passing their homework through chat

699
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.800
<v Speaker 1>GPT increasingly all homer because done true chat GPT teachers

700
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:05.280
<v Speaker 1>are correct and using chat GPT. So even the little

701
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:07.599
<v Speaker 1>bit of training they would have gone on the you know,

702
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 1>the whatever shorter text they were given to read and

703
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.159
<v Speaker 1>study and write about. No, that's going out the window.

704
00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:17.159
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I mean these trends are only going to

705
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 1>be exacerbated.

706
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:23.840
<v Speaker 2>The pre TV generation, the silent generation, pre boomer they

707
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 2>were said to have an attention span of twenty five seconds.

708
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 2>When we were growing up, it was said to be

709
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.280
<v Speaker 2>around twelve seconds. I mean, you know, TV and mass

710
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.840
<v Speaker 2>media was certainly around there that probably affected things. But

711
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.159
<v Speaker 2>now it's said to be eight seconds, So you know,

712
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:47.159
<v Speaker 2>seventy percent decline over a few decades due to exposure

713
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.039
<v Speaker 2>to media. And I remember the older generations having a

714
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:58.320
<v Speaker 2>much higher level of English. My grandfather, for example, we

715
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:02.280
<v Speaker 2>spoke very correctly and he was only you know, a

716
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:08.280
<v Speaker 2>working classman, military police officer, and he spoke very correctly.

717
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:14.039
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, the standards are declining. I don't know how

718
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>much of that is the quality of education or you know,

719
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:23.639
<v Speaker 2>other technological factors affecting neurological development or whatever. But how

720
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:29.039
<v Speaker 2>many of these children even even read books anymore? I

721
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:33.159
<v Speaker 2>remember I was quite a slow starter to get reading,

722
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:35.400
<v Speaker 2>but once I got into it, around the age of

723
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:39.320
<v Speaker 2>six or seven, I was a dedicated reader. I went

724
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:44.519
<v Speaker 2>through all the you know, children's adventure books, and you know,

725
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.679
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a really important stage that children should

726
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:48.119
<v Speaker 2>go through.

727
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's observable as well. I mean, you can see

728
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:55.599
<v Speaker 1>it's not just like a selection bias where we're looking

729
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:59.559
<v Speaker 1>at the educated few and how well they rolled or

730
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.559
<v Speaker 1>spoil prior to us. But I mean you can look

731
00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:05.760
<v Speaker 1>at things like letters from soldiers, people posts sometimes on

732
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:09.880
<v Speaker 1>x people's diaries, people's letters to one another, like working

733
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:14.360
<v Speaker 1>class people and Yeah, it's at a level that seems

734
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.679
<v Speaker 1>totally remarkable to us now if you were to imagine

735
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:21.320
<v Speaker 1>the average person writing like that. But this, yeah, this

736
00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:24.559
<v Speaker 1>was just a level of schooling and understanding that that

737
00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:25.679
<v Speaker 1>was taken for granted.

738
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:29.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad to see that a couple of states have

739
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:36.480
<v Speaker 2>actually taken action. Sweden and Denmark have removed these kind

740
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:41.039
<v Speaker 2>of you know, technological aids and reverted back to pen

741
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:47.079
<v Speaker 2>and paper. Also, we've seen Australia create an entire social

742
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:51.960
<v Speaker 2>media ban for under sixteenes and I think it's necessary.

743
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.239
<v Speaker 2>The UK are looking at it. I would like to see,

744
00:47:56.119 --> 00:48:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, a state solution across the Western world, because

745
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:04.719
<v Speaker 2>clearly something is very wrong and that will be required.

746
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's really so profound. I mean we haven't even

747
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:12.079
<v Speaker 1>gotten into all of the health effects in terms of

748
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:15.480
<v Speaker 1>what we're finding about how this affect sleep, how to

749
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.559
<v Speaker 1>affect people's cortisol and their general levels of stress and

750
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.960
<v Speaker 1>anxiety and depression, and all of these things are being

751
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>studied now and again just very direct, very profound links

752
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.880
<v Speaker 1>between all of those things. And I mean it's very

753
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.480
<v Speaker 1>difficult in terms of looking at this as a as

754
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 1>a sociological problem to really talk about solutions. I mean,

755
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:42.639
<v Speaker 1>we can talk about obviously limited it to from children.

756
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:44.360
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's a no brainer, and I think

757
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.679
<v Speaker 1>is you know, it should really just be like a

758
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:51.199
<v Speaker 1>basic kind of standard of parenting in terms of just

759
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:55.199
<v Speaker 1>being unacceptable to hand these devices over to kids and

760
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:58.119
<v Speaker 1>get them hooked on them. But I mean, ultimately, for

761
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:02.280
<v Speaker 1>the individual, it's very hard to see this just being

762
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:06.880
<v Speaker 1>legislated out of and you know, the Silicon Valley has

763
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:14.199
<v Speaker 1>tens of thousands of engineers combined millions of hours designed

764
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.960
<v Speaker 1>to hook people and activate the reward system to have

765
00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:20.320
<v Speaker 1>them hooked on this for as many hours and minutes

766
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:25.559
<v Speaker 1>as possible, and fighting that is very difficult. But in

767
00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:29.599
<v Speaker 1>terms of sociologically, how we deal with this collectively, not

768
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:33.800
<v Speaker 1>only there not very many answers, but I don't think

769
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:40.519
<v Speaker 1>the profound downstream effects of this have even really been

770
00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.320
<v Speaker 1>considered very much, even by our own side. And I

771
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:47.280
<v Speaker 1>think we've only scratched the surface of it ourselves, even

772
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 1>in this discussion.

773
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's not let our political opponents monopolize these kind

774
00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:57.519
<v Speaker 2>of ideas. You know, as we said in episode one,

775
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.800
<v Speaker 2>we need to be tapped into you know, all areas

776
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:07.079
<v Speaker 2>unless present a case for everything, how we see the world,

777
00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:10.840
<v Speaker 2>how you know the future can be if we win

778
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:15.280
<v Speaker 2>power and you know, wielding the state to limit the

779
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:20.559
<v Speaker 2>freedom and you know, stop limbic capitalism operating with a

780
00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>totally free hand at whatever social cost.

781
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:26.199
<v Speaker 3>You know that, let's make the case for that.

782
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a lot to cover. And you know, again

783
00:50:28.880 --> 00:50:32.199
<v Speaker 1>we haven't even we didn't even really get into the

784
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.239
<v Speaker 1>effects of AI and l ll ms and the profound

785
00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:40.639
<v Speaker 1>effects were starting to see that, have you know, open

786
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:43.800
<v Speaker 1>the can of worms on AI relationships and how in's

787
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:45.719
<v Speaker 1>sane some of the suffer scene with that is now

788
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and how common it is, But that will be that

789
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.920
<v Speaker 1>will have to be evergreen content before another day. For now,

790
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 1>we leave it there. And yeah, this was a This

791
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.320
<v Speaker 1>was a good discussion. Hopefully people will get something out

792
00:50:57.320 --> 00:50:57.519
<v Speaker 1>of it.