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Speaker 2: What you are now listening to? True Murder The most
Speaker 2: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 2: have written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK
Speaker 2: every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 2: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 2: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening, Elliott
Speaker 2: Roger considered himself to be intelligent, refined, handsome, fashionable, and charming.
Speaker 2: He spent years trying to be cool so women would
Speaker 2: like him. Aught if he just wore expensive and fashionable clothing,
Speaker 2: had a better car, or if he were rich, then
Speaker 2: women would throw themselves at him. In fact, he thought
Speaker 2: himself to be the supreme gentleman, yet women paid no
Speaker 2: attention to him. His only conclusion was that they were
Speaker 2: genetically flawed, and because of this they ignored him and
Speaker 2: threw themselves at men who were ignorant savage brutes. In
Speaker 2: his mind, his lack of success with women had ruined
Speaker 2: his life. He started to psychologically deteriorate. Roger decided to
Speaker 2: get revenge. He spent months planning his day of retribution
Speaker 2: and act where he would kill as many attractive women
Speaker 2: and the type of men that were drawn to they
Speaker 2: were drawn to as he could in a savage attack.
Speaker 2: Then he acted on his plan, killing six people and
Speaker 2: wounding numerous others in what became known as the Isla
Speaker 2: Vista Massacre. The story does not end with Roger, however,
Speaker 2: as numerous other inceels have since committed copycat attacks. The
Speaker 2: Supreme Gentleman Killer by Brian Whitney is the story of
Speaker 2: Elliott Roger in how he turned from a nice, quiet,
Speaker 2: polite young man to the first self identified in cell
Speaker 2: involuntarily celibate killer. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 2: is The Supreme Gentleman Killer, The Story of an INCEL
Speaker 2: mass murderer, with my special guest, journalist and author Brian Whitney.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the program. Brian Whitney, Hey.
Speaker 1: Dan, thanks so much.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for coming to this program again
Speaker 5: with a very very interesting case. I have to say,
Speaker 5: how did you come to give us these circumstances and
Speaker 5: the whys and hows of how you came to be
Speaker 5: the author of this book.
Speaker 1: Well, I have, actually I always been very interested in
Speaker 1: the case, even when the massacre first happened and in
Speaker 1: cells sort of became a more popularized, popularized term. It's
Speaker 1: something that I've that I've always been interested in, and
Speaker 1: I've also always been a little confused. Why is no
Speaker 1: one's ever written a book about about Elliott Roger before,
Speaker 1: because his case, to me is so fascinating. So I
Speaker 1: just pitched it to uh to wild Blue, who I've
Speaker 1: published a lot with, and they were interested in the idea,
Speaker 1: so I so I sat down and wrote it. And
Speaker 1: also he Elliott wrote a manifesto called My Twisted World,
Speaker 1: which you know, gives access to a lot of his
Speaker 1: thoughts about why and how he did what he did.
Speaker 1: So the whole thing has this always been very interesting
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Elliott Roger is a very very interesting background,
Speaker 5: and of course you lay out every bit of his
Speaker 5: background and the psychology that enveloped some him in his life.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about his background, where he grew up, what
Speaker 5: were his parents like, what happened with that his parents marriage?
Speaker 5: Tell us about that.
Speaker 1: Sure, he was born in England from a wealthy family.
Speaker 1: Moved to America at a very young age. His father's
Speaker 1: name is Peter Roger, and he's a he's a director.
Speaker 1: He was an assistant director on The Hunger Games and
Speaker 1: he did his own independent movie called Oh My God
Speaker 1: a few years later. His mother, her name is Chen,
Speaker 1: she had been she had dated George Lucas in the past.
Speaker 1: So he was from a you know, he's from a
Speaker 1: family that had some money, moved to America so his
Speaker 1: father could advance his career and film. He's a very shy,
Speaker 1: very very kid, and he was always sort of obsessed
Speaker 1: with status and wealth and things of that nature, even
Speaker 1: when he was very young. And his time went on,
Speaker 1: I could, I could talk for about ten minutes on
Speaker 1: his piece, but I'm sure you'll have a follow up, Preston.
Speaker 1: But his time went on, he became more and more
Speaker 1: lost in a world where he felt that he didn't
Speaker 1: have any status, whether it be even in elementary school,
Speaker 1: he felt that way any social status. Junior high school
Speaker 1: that increased, high school that increased even more. Women weren't
Speaker 1: interested in him. Girls weren't interested in him. And he
Speaker 1: was a very lonely, shy kid who kind of went
Speaker 1: off into fantasy a lot.
Speaker 5: His parents, though he seemed to be traumatized and was
Speaker 5: traumatized by many things, including his parents' divorce at the
Speaker 5: fairly early age. Right tell us about that, but also
Speaker 5: tell us that this idea of privilege and his parents divorcing.
Speaker 5: But he did grow up in the upper middle class,
Speaker 5: so that afforded him certain things that I think, if
Speaker 5: you look through this entire story, certainly had some contribution
Speaker 5: in terms of some of his mindset even early on.
Speaker 5: Tell us about something that some things about the private
Speaker 5: schools that he attended, and why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was traumatized by a lot of things.
Speaker 1: But it's also interesting that a lot of things that
Speaker 1: he was traumatized by were not things that they were
Speaker 1: difficult things, but they weren't things that would cause most
Speaker 1: people to be as traumatized as he was by them,
Speaker 1: I would say. But his parents divorced when he was young.
Speaker 1: His father remarried rather quickly with a woman named Sumaya,
Speaker 1: who was a very attractive woman, an actress. Elliott he
Speaker 1: always was closer to his mom and his dad, so
Speaker 1: then he started going back and forth between two houses.
Speaker 1: His father lived in a bunch of different areas of California,
Speaker 1: but they were all very upper class areas, you know,
Speaker 1: with the swimming pool and the balconies and so on
Speaker 1: and so forth. His mom lived in an apartment at
Speaker 1: one point, and Ellie was very upset by that, you know,
Speaker 1: that he had to live in a you know, what
Speaker 1: he considered to be like a poor environment, which his
Speaker 1: mother definitely was not poor, but in his mind she
Speaker 1: was so, and that definitely had had a lot to
Speaker 1: do with that. He also though thought his father, because
Speaker 1: his father almost immediately married, He thought his father was
Speaker 1: very powerful because he could attract such an attractive woman
Speaker 1: so soon. So, you know, he and he did go
Speaker 1: to a lot of different private schools as he was
Speaker 1: growing up, which each school he hated more than the
Speaker 1: last one. His parents would remove him from one school
Speaker 1: and then put him in another school. He would just,
Speaker 1: in his words, he would be paralyzed with fear at
Speaker 1: school and he wouldn't dare to talk to anybody. But
Speaker 1: at the same point, this is what makes him really interesting.
Speaker 1: At the same point, even as he was paralyzed by fear,
Speaker 1: wouldn't there to talk to anybody. He always thought that
Speaker 1: he was better and he couldn't understand why these women
Speaker 1: weren't attracted these girls weren't attracted to him. He couldn't
Speaker 1: understand why they were attracted to these jocks, these guys
Speaker 1: that he thought were brutish sort of slobs. So it
Speaker 1: just became this rather unique thing with him where he
Speaker 1: did have all these privileges and he had you know,
Speaker 1: he was a decent looking guy, and he had a
Speaker 1: lot of money and had good clothes.
Speaker 5: But.
Speaker 1: At the same point, at the same point, he couldn't
Speaker 1: reconcile his reality to what to what his thoughts were
Speaker 1: about what should be happening in his life.
Speaker 5: He also developed with the divorce and the dynamics of
Speaker 5: the relationship hips that ensued from that, especially with Somaya,
Speaker 5: that he didn't he didn't respect and appreciate the discipline
Speaker 5: or her disciplining him at all, and later that becomes
Speaker 5: important when she disciplines him and takes away the biggest
Speaker 5: joy of his life at that time. What is the
Speaker 5: dynamic that he sees at first he sees his father
Speaker 5: powerful and that he was able to attract this beautiful woman.
Speaker 5: Where does how does he develop these ideas of weakness
Speaker 5: and power? How does he come to that at such
Speaker 5: an early age? Where does that come from?
Speaker 1: You think, I mean, that's that's a good question. He's
Speaker 1: very he's very complicated. He was a very complicated guy.
Speaker 1: So somayas from Morocco. He did Elliott when he retreated.
Speaker 1: There's lots of people do There's lots of young teenagers
Speaker 1: do and he retreated into a world of video games.
Speaker 1: In particularly, he was very in the World of Warcraft
Speaker 1: and he played World of Warcraft all the time, and
Speaker 1: Sumaya would try to limit his time on the game,
Speaker 1: and she would she would discipline him in other ways.
Speaker 1: She would try to force him to go outside and
Speaker 1: play with other kids in the neighborhood, and Elliott just
Speaker 1: didn't want to do that. And occasionally, one time they
Speaker 1: made him to go to Morocco in the summer with her,
Speaker 1: which meant he couldn't play World of Warcraft at all,
Speaker 1: and he thought of Morocco as like a third World country.
Speaker 1: And and so there were a lot of issues with
Speaker 1: with Elliott and his stepmother because she did end up
Speaker 1: marrying Peter's father, And there were also a lot of
Speaker 1: issues with him why he didn't understand why he is
Speaker 1: Peter's son. Was was you know, forced to be secondary
Speaker 1: to this, to this woman in his life and that
Speaker 1: definitely he definitely And he also it should be said
Speaker 1: that at this point, when he was young, they also
Speaker 1: did bring him to psychiatrists and he had some diagnoses
Speaker 1: that he was on the autism spectrum, but it never
Speaker 1: was really that clear how far they went with that,
Speaker 1: and in fact, his father, Peter was sort of like,
Speaker 1: I don't think he really is autistic. He thought he
Speaker 1: was as shy. His mother definitely thought he was autistic.
Speaker 1: And there were differing viewpoints from psychiatrists at that time,
Speaker 1: so they were aware that there were some issues and
Speaker 1: they were trying to get him help, but no one
Speaker 1: ever was aware even slightly of how deeply he was
Speaker 1: going astray. When he was young, right now.
Speaker 5: He developed this sort of philosophy and you touched on
Speaker 5: it about him being inferior in certain ways, but then
Speaker 5: also he had a pretty optimistic and positive self image
Speaker 5: which contributed, which he thought he was very handsome, tell
Speaker 5: us some of the things that he thought he had
Speaker 5: that were inferior and some of the things that he
Speaker 5: thought were superior, and the things he and this was
Speaker 5: at an early age, in elementary school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at a very very young age. He was aware,
Speaker 1: at least in his mind. I mean this is in
Speaker 1: his mind. He was shorter than most other kids. He
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly athletic. He noticed even that he took him
Speaker 1: longer to swing on a swing. Kids younger than him
Speaker 1: could swing, and he still would have his father put him.
Speaker 1: He really hated that he was short. He used to
Speaker 1: lay down on the ground and just try to stretch
Speaker 1: to make himself taller. He tried to play basketball to
Speaker 1: make himself taller because he as a young child, he
Speaker 1: thought that that would make him tall as opposed to
Speaker 1: the tall people played basketball. He became obsessed at one
Speaker 1: point with skateboarding because he thought if he could skateboard,
Speaker 1: he'd be cool, and he dyed his hair blonde. This
Speaker 1: is when he's like in sixth or seventh grade. He
Speaker 1: dyed his hair blonde, and he's like, Oh, if I
Speaker 1: learned to skateboard and my hair is blonde, then I'll
Speaker 1: be like everyone will think I'm cool. But then other
Speaker 1: kids were better at him in skateboarding, so he just
Speaker 1: quit skateboarding. So this is kind of a theme throughout
Speaker 1: his life. This these inferior things, but he considered himself
Speaker 1: completely intellectually superior to just about everybody. The title of
Speaker 1: the book, The Supreme Gentleman, is sort of a theme
Speaker 1: throughout his life because in his writings he constantly refers
Speaker 1: to himself as him being a gentleman of class and tastes,
Speaker 1: and these other men that are boys, that women or
Speaker 1: girls are attracted to are slobs inferior to him, and
Speaker 1: he's very confused as to why these these young women
Speaker 1: or girls. I keep mixing that term up because this
Speaker 1: goes all the way from me. He's like, you know,
Speaker 1: twelve until sure, until the end of his life. So
Speaker 1: so that's the that's the part of it. So in
Speaker 1: some ways he feels incredibly inferior, but in other ways
Speaker 1: he feels that the he's vastly superior, and you can't
Speaker 1: understand why young women are attracted to young men that
Speaker 1: have different qualities than he has. And he gets very,
Speaker 1: very angry about this. It's not like the kind of
Speaker 1: thing where he's sitting around ruminating on this. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's he is very very angry about it.
Speaker 5: You talk about his awkward puberty and accidentally finding out
Speaker 5: about masturbation and turning into a great source of pleasure
Speaker 5: for him. And yet even with world of warcraft and
Speaker 5: even with this masturbation new hobby, there always seems some disappointment.
Speaker 5: We didn't talk about whether he had and his family
Speaker 5: had any religious background, but tell us about this this prudence,
Speaker 5: him being so prudish about sex at a time when
Speaker 5: you wouldn't think a young boy would be of that mindset.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that is interesting. I mean there were a
Speaker 1: few times that he would get on AOL was big
Speaker 1: at the time. It's kind of like a people that
Speaker 1: are young, who was going to get in a chat
Speaker 1: room that America online and occasionally someone would send him
Speaker 1: something you know, that might be a naked woman and
Speaker 1: he would get extremely upset by it. At one point,
Speaker 1: he was at a cyber cafe where people could get
Speaker 1: on computers and he saw somebody else looking at porn
Speaker 1: and he upset to the point that in the cyber cafe,
Speaker 1: for example, he saw the person looking at porn and
Speaker 1: he got so freaked out that he left and he
Speaker 1: cried all the way home after seeing this image of
Speaker 1: pornography and his masturbation. He was very All he would
Speaker 1: ever think about was him, you know, having sex, and
Speaker 1: it was always a beautiful blonde girl. One of the
Speaker 1: most interesting things about Elliott and I could say this later,
Speaker 1: but since this just came up, he never thought about
Speaker 1: himself being with a girl or a woman that was
Speaker 1: that was anything but the perfect looking woman. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't a situation where he was like if an average
Speaker 1: looking girl in high school approached him, he probably would
Speaker 1: have totally blown them off because in his mind he
Speaker 1: was destined to be with a beautiful blonde woman, or
Speaker 1: if he wasn't, was ruined. It was pretty much those
Speaker 1: two absolutes.
Speaker 5: Now, how about friendships. In a book, you write about
Speaker 5: his mom, you know she's divorced, the father's divorced, there's
Speaker 5: trips to Morocco. He has a new woman in his life,
Speaker 5: so he's not the center of attention, and sometimes he
Speaker 5: is taken care of by nanny's Yet, so what about
Speaker 5: friends and how does he approach approach friends? He said, Sumaya,
Speaker 5: try try to get him to go outside and play
Speaker 5: with friends. What's the problem with making friends?
Speaker 1: He is incredibly He was incredibly shy. He was a
Speaker 1: very very shy kid. His teachers throughout school would talk
Speaker 1: about how he would never really speak to anybody. This
Speaker 1: was also a theme throughout his life, where he whether
Speaker 1: it be females or male friendships, he would kind of
Speaker 1: hope that things would happen and get really angry when
Speaker 1: they didn't. But he really pretty much never would would
Speaker 1: actually take any steps himself to make these relationships with people,
Speaker 1: whether they'd be male or female. As far as male friends,
Speaker 1: there were a few times he basically didn't have any
Speaker 1: when he was really young, and there were a few
Speaker 1: times that he had these little groups of friends that
Speaker 1: he'd play play World of Warcraft the way they go
Speaker 1: to the cyber cafe. But then even then he would
Speaker 1: find out sometimes I could be playing World of Warcraft
Speaker 1: and with these three other kids, and and'd find out
Speaker 1: they were all in the same round, you know, at
Speaker 1: some other house playing where they didn't invite him to come.
Speaker 1: He had one good friend for quite a while named
Speaker 1: James that he sort of connected with around World of
Speaker 1: Warcraft and would get together with on occasions. That friendship
Speaker 1: ended because of Elliott's behavior later in life. And it
Speaker 1: was the same sort of thing with guys who'd get
Speaker 1: really angry if say, he had a friend, even when
Speaker 1: he was thirteen or fourteen, and a friend had had
Speaker 1: a girlfriend. Elliott would get really really mad, really mad
Speaker 1: just that the person actually had a girlfriend, and would
Speaker 1: often end up getting in a fight, not a physical fight,
Speaker 1: but a verbal fight with that friend about that fact.
Speaker 5: Now, the relationship with his parents, He's always close to
Speaker 5: his mom and always had affection for his mom, but
Speaker 5: things change with his father and tell us why and
Speaker 5: what are those changes result in for him?
Speaker 1: He it had always he was very clear. And this
Speaker 1: is the odd part, because his mother didn't have much
Speaker 1: money comparatively. I mean, I think she's basically middle class.
Speaker 1: It wasn't she wasn't poor at all. But he did
Speaker 1: have a very close relationship with her. But he didn't
Speaker 1: feel that that you know, that she had the ability
Speaker 1: to like, you know, up his status at all. Well,
Speaker 1: his father actually did so. Over time, Elliott and his
Speaker 1: stepmother began to fight more and more. His father, in
Speaker 1: his mind, completely took and and again, as I'm saying this,
Speaker 1: most of this information I'm I'm getting from police reports
Speaker 1: and the background information that has been in investigations, and
Speaker 1: also Elliott's own thoughts. So these are Elliott's thoughts about
Speaker 1: his relationship with his with his parents, that his father
Speaker 1: took took some a aside all the time, that you know,
Speaker 1: and and over as time went on, their relationship became
Speaker 1: more and more fractured, uh, because of as I've said before,
Speaker 1: that he felt that Peter always took her side and
Speaker 1: never his, So they became less and less close as
Speaker 1: time went on.
Speaker 5: What about World of Warcraft, What was the whole role
Speaker 5: playing game situation online? What did that present to him?
Speaker 5: What did he what did he think of it?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I've played World of Warcraft, so I
Speaker 1: have an idea. It's one of those games where you're
Speaker 1: not only and back in the day, this was one
Speaker 1: of the first games like this, you know, back in
Speaker 1: I would say probably you started playing in like two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, two thousand and eight or so. It
Speaker 1: was one of the only games like this where you're
Speaker 1: not just playing a game, you're also playing with other
Speaker 1: characters that are other people, So people communicate with you. You
Speaker 1: join a guild, which is kind of a group. You
Speaker 1: do things together in the guild, and it's kind of endless.
Speaker 1: You can just keep playing and playing and there's always
Speaker 1: something else to do. You can lose, you can lose hours,
Speaker 1: you can lose days, you know, in a game like this.
Speaker 1: So for Elliott is as it is for a lot
Speaker 1: of people, games of that nature just ways for them
Speaker 1: to get out of their reality and do something that
Speaker 1: they that they feel, you know, that they that they
Speaker 1: kind of fit in with and that they don't have
Speaker 1: the pressures of day to day life. So he at
Speaker 1: a lot of points in his life. For for years,
Speaker 1: like it was all he wanted to do. Like he
Speaker 1: didn't want to I mean, he wanted to have a girlfriend,
Speaker 1: he wanted to have friends, but all basically all he
Speaker 1: really did was just play World of Warcraft for quite
Speaker 1: a while and and was just lost in it. And
Speaker 1: and it eventually it lost its luster and he he
Speaker 1: got tired of you not, but for years it was
Speaker 1: it was his thing.
Speaker 5: Did he make friends online?
Speaker 1: He made? He made some, but then, as always happens
Speaker 1: in the game, like that, it became more popular, so
Speaker 1: they weren't really friends. But I mean there are people
Speaker 1: that he could that he could chat with and make
Speaker 1: a joke with and communicate with. But as it became
Speaker 1: more popular, he started to hate the game more and
Speaker 1: more because because there would be more and more quote
Speaker 1: unquote normal people on the game that would make jokes
Speaker 1: about virgins or the people that play the game have
Speaker 1: no life, and since Elliott was a virgin, and Elliott
Speaker 1: considered himself to not have a life, he he started
Speaker 1: to get very angry and eventually quit. He also didn't
Speaker 1: like the fact that he played so much similar to
Speaker 1: like the sports thing he played so much, but he
Speaker 1: still wasn't all that great. There was still like if
Speaker 1: you if you play a game like World of Warcraft,
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of competition as far as like
Speaker 1: you know, who's the best and who's the best healer,
Speaker 1: who's the best tank or whatever, and he wasn't that great.
Speaker 1: So even that, like he started to get angry that
Speaker 1: you put so much time in and he still wasn't
Speaker 1: one of the best at it, so he eventually quit.
Speaker 5: That was another theme as well, is that whenever he
Speaker 5: did anything, if anyone was better than he at skateboarding,
Speaker 5: then he lost his interest in it because there was
Speaker 5: somebody that was better that hadn't done it as long
Speaker 5: as him, and so why continue.
Speaker 1: His whole Yeah, his whole life is like that. He
Speaker 1: would he he always just would have these different ideas
Speaker 1: about something you might want to do, and then once
Speaker 1: he realized that somebody was better, especially someone as you said,
Speaker 1: that hasn't worked as hard as he was, he would
Speaker 1: he would eventually give up.
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Speaker 5: How close was he to his father and how much
Speaker 5: of that father son bonding was done despite his ambitious
Speaker 5: film career and his change in his personal life with Maya.
Speaker 1: I think when he was, when he was very young,
Speaker 1: he was he was very close to his dad. I mean,
Speaker 1: he definitely really looked up to his father, and he
Speaker 1: still looked up to his father for for quite a while.
Speaker 1: But then around the Samaia time again, they started to
Speaker 1: fall apart. And he also was very upset because he
Speaker 1: didn't understand why his father didn't get how unhappy he was.
Speaker 1: Even though he would never tell his father any of
Speaker 1: these things, he became angry that his father didn't understand.
Speaker 1: Like they'd go out for a birthday party or something,
Speaker 1: and his father would would be with Samaia. And he
Speaker 1: had a sister, but he barely talks about his sister.
Speaker 1: He also had a younger brother, but quite a bit younger,
Speaker 1: so at this point his brother adn't even born yet,
Speaker 1: so you know, and he would be his birthday and
Speaker 1: his father would be very pleased and proud of being
Speaker 1: nice to him, and Ellie would actually get mad at
Speaker 1: his father because how could his father be acting like
Speaker 1: everything's okay when he's so miserable. But at the same point,
Speaker 1: all he would do is tell his father that everything's okay.
Speaker 1: So there was that kind of relationship. I wouldn't even
Speaker 1: say it was a bad relationship per se. It was
Speaker 1: just it was just a false relationship because neither one
Speaker 1: of them had any idea, you know, if the other
Speaker 1: one was really what was really thinking. At any point,
Speaker 1: there was no real communication going on between Elliott and
Speaker 1: anybody in his life.
Speaker 5: He developed a hatred for these blonde, good looking women
Speaker 5: that wouldn't give him the time of day right from
Speaker 5: the very beginning, from school, elementary school, to high school
Speaker 5: and to college. But at this early stage he hated
Speaker 5: the women that would not pay any attention to them.
Speaker 5: But he also hated, as we said in the introduction,
Speaker 5: the jocks that he thought that they were stupidly attracted
Speaker 5: to and these jocks were worthless inferior. But he also
Speaker 5: thought more highly of certain races, didn't he as well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he really did. I mean, you say the
Speaker 1: thing is too if you if you know about the case,
Speaker 1: or if you read the book. When you say I
Speaker 1: hated I mean, it's not even there's no word to
Speaker 1: even describe how much he hated these people. I mean
Speaker 1: he he hated them with every fiber of his being.
Speaker 1: Like every every woman that he desired, that that didn't
Speaker 1: want him he hated, and every guy that he would
Speaker 1: see an attractive woman and a guy together and he
Speaker 1: would get incredibly angry. Sometimes he would cry it was that,
Speaker 1: you know, it was that extreme, And yes he did.
Speaker 1: He This is another one of the things about him
Speaker 1: that's it's confusing as well as interesting. He would he
Speaker 1: would look down on if there was a guy there
Speaker 1: was for example, this is his term. But if his
Speaker 1: guy that was Mexican and he would that had an
Speaker 1: attractive girlfriend or would have sex with somebody el, he
Speaker 1: would get really not you know, he would be like,
Speaker 1: how can this obnoxious, low class Mexican I'm paraphrasing that.
Speaker 1: This is pretty much it, you know, have an attractive girlfriend.
Speaker 1: When he didn't, he would get so incredibly mad. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't just as you say. He would be mad
Speaker 1: at the beautiful young woman. He would be mad at
Speaker 1: the jockel when he was dating. But then he would
Speaker 1: also be mad if someone he considered lesser than him,
Speaker 1: ended up with a good looking girlfriend or had sex.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Now, in his deluded mindset, I guess no one
Speaker 5: had told him. He didn't have any friends. He didn't
Speaker 5: have any brothers or sisters or anyone to tell them this,
Speaker 5: and he didn't know of it himself. He believed that
Speaker 5: he was a fairly good looking person. As time went on,
Speaker 5: he became more stylish. He had the money, the means
Speaker 5: to buy expensive clothes. He eventually got a really nice car.
Speaker 5: But even before that, he thought that all he had
Speaker 5: to do was what and women would approach.
Speaker 1: Him, well, are you talking about the I mean, he
Speaker 1: had a he thought, if you were rich, is that
Speaker 1: where you're talking about the financial last week?
Speaker 5: I mean, well the idea too. This is a basic,
Speaker 5: you know, thing that people would learn socially that He
Speaker 5: thought he could just stand somewhere look good, yeah, and
Speaker 5: then a beautiful woman would approach him and say, Hi, Hi.
Speaker 1: What you doing?
Speaker 5: What do you want to make love?
Speaker 1: You know? So that's the weirdest part about it is
Speaker 1: that throughout his entire life he never actually asked anybody out.
Speaker 1: I mean, he never once approached anybody. He would get,
Speaker 1: you know, he would go to a star and get
Speaker 1: a Ralph Laurents shirt and get really expensive sunglasses and
Speaker 1: comb his hair perfectly, and he would just sit somewhere
Speaker 1: or go to the mall, or walk around or sits somewhere,
Speaker 1: and he's a you know, he's a weird guy. So
Speaker 1: I can even imagine the way he would even be
Speaker 1: looking at women, and then he would see an attractive
Speaker 1: woman and he would he would look at them, and
Speaker 1: then you know, they they would just keep walking and
Speaker 1: then he would get really angry. And as time went
Speaker 1: on he started to do really bizarre things. Were occasionally
Speaker 1: a drive past. For example, he would drive past two
Speaker 1: young women and one time he would smile smile at
Speaker 1: them from his car. They ignored him, so he turned
Speaker 1: around and would like splashes, he'd pull up and throw
Speaker 1: his coffee on their pants and then and then drive away.
Speaker 1: Just a very very maladaptive way of thinking that you
Speaker 1: know that you would possibly meet somebody. And then he
Speaker 1: also was completely obsessed, even at a young age, was
Speaker 1: that if he was really rich, then woman would want him.
Speaker 1: So that was another thing. He always wanted his mother
Speaker 1: to marry a rich guy, or his father to make
Speaker 1: more money, or his father's movies to be more successful,
Speaker 1: because if that happened, then in his mind he was
Speaker 1: guaranteed to have that beautiful blonde woman that he always.
Speaker 5: Wanted right now. High school was a bust for him
Speaker 5: no matter where he went. And again, what's consistent through
Speaker 5: this This guy is a big crier. He'll cry for hours.
Speaker 5: He'll go somewhere and cry. Yes, it's amazing, it's amazing. Anguish.
Speaker 5: But the thing is I wanted to talk about was
Speaker 5: there are points where he has some optimism, some hope.
Speaker 5: Tell us about this college that and the idea of
Speaker 5: college and where he is at in terms of this
Speaker 5: mindset with there is some optimism at some point he'll
Speaker 5: give it a try, tell us about what college represented
Speaker 5: to him, and tell us a little bit about this college.
Speaker 1: Well he had throughout high school. This is a quick background.
Speaker 1: I mean, he had a whole bunch, a whole myria
Speaker 1: out of problems. So in his mind, once he final
Speaker 1: he ended up going to his school that was just
Speaker 1: basically like a school for kind of troubled kids that
Speaker 1: couldn't fit in with mainstream high school kids, where he
Speaker 1: just kind of like did his work online and went
Speaker 1: home early and so on and so forth, and he'd
Speaker 1: kind of he'd kind of sort of given up in
Speaker 1: a sense. And then his parents took him up to dinner,
Speaker 1: his mother, not Semaia, but his actual mother and his father,
Speaker 1: and they were like, you know, we really think she
Speaker 1: could go to school, and he tried to go to
Speaker 1: He went to one school called Pearce, which was a
Speaker 1: community college, and dropped out right away for the same reasons.
Speaker 1: He would see an attractive woman with a guy and
Speaker 1: it'd get really mad and he would just leave. He
Speaker 1: drop his class because he couldn't even handle being the
Speaker 1: class with him, and so on and so forth. So
Speaker 1: he decided to go to Santa Barbara College and his
Speaker 1: parents paid for that. They set him up and they
Speaker 1: gave him spending money. In his mind, it was in
Speaker 1: I live east of California, which is a party town.
Speaker 1: It's known as a party town. Elliot had seen a
Speaker 1: movie called Alpha Dog when he was in high school
Speaker 1: that was set there, and he had it in his
Speaker 1: mind that if he went to this school, no one
Speaker 1: was going to know who he was because he was
Speaker 1: just in his mind again, he was a shy, little loser.
Speaker 1: He always called himself a little mouse. He was like
Speaker 1: this worthless little mouse that everybody picked on and everyone ignored.
Speaker 1: And now he was going to go to college as
Speaker 1: a clean slate, and everything was going to be going
Speaker 1: to be great, and there'd be literally no way that
Speaker 1: he couldn't, you know, start having sex all the time
Speaker 1: and getting laid and his dreams would come to fruition. Basically,
Speaker 1: so his parents and his father brought him there. He
Speaker 1: had a room where he had his own room, and
Speaker 1: he had roommates, but he had his own room and
Speaker 1: the other two I had to share another room. And
Speaker 1: in his mind, like when he first got there, he
Speaker 1: was nervous as hell, obviously, but he was still very
Speaker 1: excited for his life to change.
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Speaker 5: he was going to college. He was going to an
Speaker 5: idyllic place in his mind. He loved the place, and
Speaker 5: it seemed that for the very first time that he
Speaker 5: was much more optimistic about getting past this virginal state,
Speaker 5: meeting a woman and being a success and proving to
Speaker 5: everyone that he was the supreme gentleman. Tell us what
Speaker 5: happens at college with these roommates. The first roommates, he
Speaker 5: has temporary roommates because they put they enroll them in
Speaker 5: the school in the dorms in June or July, I belief,
Speaker 5: But he's not scheduled for school till September, so there's
Speaker 5: temporary roommates. Tell us about the experiences he has with
Speaker 5: these roommates.
Speaker 1: He had a he had early on. He had a
Speaker 1: few different different roommates, and a couple of them only
Speaker 1: lasted for a brief period of time, and they were
Speaker 1: they were kind of okay for the most part, just
Speaker 1: because Elliott just wanted to be left alone. So if
Speaker 1: somebody was was even sort of polite to him and
Speaker 1: didn't like really pick on him in his mind or
Speaker 1: not pick on him, but but you know, it's like
Speaker 1: in his mind he wasn't really trying to be great
Speaker 1: friends with these roommates. He'd never been around people. For
Speaker 1: the most part, he just wanted to like have it
Speaker 1: be okay. So initially there were some that were kind
Speaker 1: of okay, but that was only lasted for a few weeks,
Speaker 1: as you said, because it was all pre before school
Speaker 1: even started. Then he got in with some roommates that
Speaker 1: that he considered to be low class, didn't like them,
Speaker 1: and almost immediately his roommates had a friend over and
Speaker 1: the friend was talking about like you know, women and
Speaker 1: so on and so forth, and for some reason it
Speaker 1: came up whether or not Elliott was a virgin or
Speaker 1: He asked the roommate if they've all had sex, and
Speaker 1: they all said yes, which made Elliot very angry. He
Speaker 1: went into his room and kind of freaked out and
Speaker 1: cried again and like you know, kicked and punched some things,
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, and so he ended
Speaker 1: up fighting with those roommates like almost constantly, to the
Speaker 1: point that he ended up being moved to another unit
Speaker 1: because he just couldn't even deal with the fact that
Speaker 1: these people, like these low class people, had had sex
Speaker 1: and that he had not had sex. Then he moved
Speaker 1: in with a roommate named Spencer, who was with quite
Speaker 1: for quite a while, and he didn't really mind Spencer
Speaker 1: that much for the same reason. The main thing he
Speaker 1: didn't like about Spencer was that Spencer was the only
Speaker 1: one that knew that he, you know, what his life
Speaker 1: was really like, that he was just not getting laid
Speaker 1: in his room all the time. But then Spencer brought
Speaker 1: home a young woman one day had sex with her,
Speaker 1: which made Elliott very very angry. And again, the only
Speaker 1: reason that he wasn't he could even deal with it
Speaker 1: was he looked at the woman and didn't think she
Speaker 1: was that beautiful. So then he insulted Spencer for having
Speaker 1: sex for the woman that wasn't very attractive in Elliott's mind.
Speaker 1: So they ended up hating each other and getting in
Speaker 1: a huge fight. So this kind of thing just continued
Speaker 1: to go on I don't want to get too ahead
Speaker 1: of myself and talk about his last roommates yet, but
Speaker 1: so he wasn't doing very well with his roommates, nor
Speaker 1: was he doing very well with his goal of meeting women.
Speaker 5: To say the least, you talked about this friend that
Speaker 5: really the only friend he has in his life is
Speaker 5: this person named James, And they knew each other when
Speaker 5: they were young, and then later they and rebonded over
Speaker 5: world of warcraft, and he still fell close to James,
Speaker 5: and fell close enough to James that he expressed his
Speaker 5: frustrations and also something that made James exit his life.
Speaker 5: What does he begin to tell him and confide in
Speaker 5: him about.
Speaker 1: Well at this point throughout time, throughout his life, Eliot
Speaker 1: became more and more extreme with things. So briefly, but
Speaker 1: even at college, it obviously didn't work out at all
Speaker 1: the way he planned, the same things would happen. He
Speaker 1: would look at himself in the mirror and put on
Speaker 1: these sunglasses and tell himself how beautifully looked, and then
Speaker 1: he'd go to class and he would be ignored, I
Speaker 1: mean not ignored, but no one would talk to him
Speaker 1: because he wasn't talking to anybody else either. So he
Speaker 1: was dropping these classes, getting angry at women and guys
Speaker 1: same thing. So he started saying things to James which
Speaker 1: were things that he really thought was that, you know,
Speaker 1: women were basically inferior, they were stupid. You know, he
Speaker 1: was getting more and more angry that they were women
Speaker 1: in general acted the way they acted. He wished he
Speaker 1: could get revenge on people. Started to tell James even
Speaker 1: some of the things that he wanted to do. He
Speaker 1: was often talking about, like you know, boiling people in
Speaker 1: oil and things of that nature. And there would be
Speaker 1: times that he and James would go out to dinner
Speaker 1: get a bite, and an attractive woman would come in
Speaker 1: with a guy, and James would just be like, you know, man,
Speaker 1: we're screwed, and because he knew Elliott was going to
Speaker 1: freak out, and Ellie would get really, really angry, and
Speaker 1: eventually James just pulled away because he just couldn't handle
Speaker 1: how weird Arry honestly, Elliott was. Elliott was becoming.
Speaker 5: When he loses all his friends and school ends up
Speaker 5: to be a big bust for him. World of warcraft
Speaker 5: isn't enough for him to distract him. What does he
Speaker 5: find online? What kind of communities he find online. What
Speaker 5: kind of type of sites does he visit and what
Speaker 5: does he find?
Speaker 1: Well, he started there was one site called PUA hate
Speaker 1: dot Comedy used to get on all the time, which
Speaker 1: is a stands for pickup artists hate. He would go
Speaker 1: on sites like that and bodybuilding sites and he would
Speaker 1: basically distrol them. He would spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: like getting on these sites, like you know, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about how much he you know, hated bodybuilders and PUA Hate.
Speaker 1: There's Tim and a bunch of other people that would
Speaker 1: has joined together. This is before the term in cell
Speaker 1: was popularized, but they were basically in cells. They would
Speaker 1: they would join together and bemoan the fact that that
Speaker 1: women were only attracted to, you know, guys, flat abs
Speaker 1: and you know, and just attracted a stupid men instead
Speaker 1: of like, you know, intelligent men like them. And they'd
Speaker 1: kind of stoke each other's fires and get each other
Speaker 1: wound up. Not all of them, of course, that's the
Speaker 1: thing you have to be clear about with these kind
Speaker 1: of things. It's not like I'm saying every person who
Speaker 1: identifies as an insult Back then too was being this
Speaker 1: dramatic about things. But Elliott did find some people that
Speaker 1: he could at least vent to online about the way
Speaker 1: he felt because he didn't have anyone in his real
Speaker 1: life that he could do so too, mostly because what
Speaker 1: he was venting about was so insane, obviously, but right.
Speaker 5: He also read some things that reinforced or at least
Speaker 5: maybe even advanced his own ideas about rape and decriminalizing
Speaker 5: rape or legalizing rape. He did reach some far more
Speaker 5: extreme things than even he was espousing and imagining online,
Speaker 5: didn't he.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he did. I mean he began to involve himself
Speaker 1: and things of that nature. He eventually became way more
Speaker 1: extreme than you know. Down the line. He was talking
Speaker 1: about putting women in concentration camps and things of that
Speaker 1: and things of that, things of that nature, because they
Speaker 1: weren't able to think for themselves. But yeah, he became
Speaker 1: more and a lot of it was also his isolation,
Speaker 1: because again he went to this college with this dream
Speaker 1: of all this happening. He basically just dropped out of college,
Speaker 1: didn't tell his parents he wasn't even taking classes anymore.
Speaker 1: They'd keep sending his allowance. Then another semester would come
Speaker 1: out to take a class, drop that because he'd become
Speaker 1: incredibly angry seeing beautiful women in class and so on,
Speaker 1: and so that, you know, with the jocks and stupid guys.
Speaker 1: So he is basically not basically he was spending all
Speaker 1: of his time in his room, not even playing Wow anymore,
Speaker 1: but just in his room, fantasized making plans playing the lottery,
Speaker 1: playing the lottery constantly because he he thought that if
Speaker 1: he won the lottery that he'd be rich and then
Speaker 1: that would solve everything and just deteriorating, and eventually he
Speaker 1: started thinking and plotting of this what he called the
Speaker 1: day of retribution, where he would you know, come out
Speaker 1: pay for how they've treated him, you know, his whole life.
Speaker 5: In that time, He's had some delays, he had an accident,
Speaker 5: broke his leg, but also at the same time, he
Speaker 5: gave himself an out that if again, if he won
Speaker 5: the lottery he thought he had intuition that he would win,
Speaker 5: then all those problems would be solved and they wouldn't
Speaker 5: have to kill anybody, you know, ironically, he would go
Speaker 5: get that woman that he hated and she would be
Speaker 5: attracted to him because he had the money, and then
Speaker 5: he would go live as well as happily ever after.
Speaker 5: So this episode go ahead.
Speaker 1: Oh, No. All I was going to say was, yeah,
Speaker 1: this went on for a long time. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: kind of important to like, you know, I mean, this
Speaker 1: kind of stage went on for probably like about a
Speaker 1: year and a half, where where in his parents' mind
Speaker 1: he was he was at school and he was doing
Speaker 1: what he was supposed to be doing, and but he
Speaker 1: wasn't really doing any of these things. And he would
Speaker 1: continue to say like, well, I might have to do it.
Speaker 1: I might have to go kill it. I don't want to,
Speaker 1: but I might have to just like, you know, go
Speaker 1: kill everybody. And then he he he started reading these
Speaker 1: law of attraction books that were basically about like positive
Speaker 1: thinking and so on and so forth. So he would
Speaker 1: he would envision that he was going to win the lottery,
Speaker 1: and then he would buy like numerous lottery tickets and
Speaker 1: he would be sure. He wouldn't just think, he would
Speaker 1: be sure that he had won, and he would sit
Speaker 1: there and he'd be like, Okay, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: have to kill everybody, like I'm gonna I'm gonna win
Speaker 1: the lottery and everything's going to be fine. And then
Speaker 1: the day would come and then and he wouldn't win,
Speaker 1: and he would you know, he would he would freak out.
Speaker 1: He would you know, attack his mattress with a knife,
Speaker 1: like just just lose his mind. And then he would
Speaker 1: plan the day of retribution again, and then again he
Speaker 1: would read another lot of Attraction book, or we'd played
Speaker 1: a lottery again and he'd stopped. It'd be like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, if I win this and then I won't
Speaker 1: have to kill anybody. So this this period went on
Speaker 1: for for a while. And during this period too, I
Speaker 1: mean not to not to ramble on, but like there's
Speaker 1: certain things like there was one time he was he
Speaker 1: was on a field just hanging out, and he saw
Speaker 1: like a bunch of guys playing football and some really
Speaker 1: attractive women like watching them, and he got so mad.
Speaker 1: He went to a walmart, got a super soaker, filled
Speaker 1: it with orange juice, came back, sprayed them all with
Speaker 1: this super soaker, like ran away, laughing like crazy. He
Speaker 1: got in his car and drove off. So he was
Speaker 1: starting to sort of practice, you know, like these little attacks.
Speaker 1: Other times he would throw coffee on a couple walking
Speaker 1: down the street and then he just drive away and
Speaker 1: run back to his room and perseverate again for about
Speaker 1: five days on how he's gonna, you know how, he's
Speaker 1: gonna kill everybody. You know, it went on for a
Speaker 1: really really long time. It's processed.
Speaker 5: In that time period too, he did some brave attempts,
Speaker 5: I guess in his mind to see if he could
Speaker 5: find someone that would be attracted to him. So he
Speaker 5: went to parties that he wasn't invited to, seemed to
Speaker 5: blend in, even drank some beer, but just did some
Speaker 5: embarrassing things, and at one point, through his own undoing
Speaker 5: or he ends up getting beat up. And through all
Speaker 5: of this when we talk about him being bullied, him
Speaker 5: being ridiculed, he so isolates himself and just the private
Speaker 5: schools and everything else. He never really was beat up.
Speaker 5: So now in the midst of this mindset, he's again
Speaker 5: he says a lot of things about last straws, but
Speaker 5: this beating is one of the last straws to put
Speaker 5: him and decide for certain that he's going to do
Speaker 5: this day of retribution, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: Yeah? He You know, short version of the story is
Speaker 1: there were a few times, as he said that he
Speaker 1: would go into a party and just kind of stand there.
Speaker 1: He'd get really drunk and drink vodka or whatever, and
Speaker 1: walk to a party or go into a party and
Speaker 1: just sort of stand there and then leave because he
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do. But this one time he
Speaker 1: and again he brought up the racial thing that started.
Speaker 1: He went into this party. He didn't know anybody, he
Speaker 1: just knew through Facebook, through stocking Facebook. There was this
Speaker 1: big kind of frat party thing going on with like
Speaker 1: a couple hundred people, and he went in and there
Speaker 1: was an Asian guy talking to a really attractive woman.
Speaker 1: So that made him really really mad, you know that
Speaker 1: this woman was talking to an Asian guy instead of him,
Speaker 1: and he ended up trying to insult the Asian guy.
Speaker 1: The Asian guy just is kind of worried about him,
Speaker 1: like thought he was too drunk, which made Elliot even.
Speaker 1: He went outside and there was like a little ledge
Speaker 1: outside of the party, and he jumped up on the ledge.
Speaker 1: It's like a little wall, like a stone wall, and
Speaker 1: he jumped up and he sort of like made started
Speaker 1: making a gun motion and started trying to shoot people
Speaker 1: and they're passing by just with his hand. He didn't
Speaker 1: have a gun. And other people saw him on the
Speaker 1: on the wall and they jumped up too, and then
Speaker 1: he started trying to push off attractive women. He tried
Speaker 1: to push them off the ledge. It was probably about,
Speaker 1: you know, four feet high. It wasn't like high, but
Speaker 1: but these guys saw him doing it, so they pushed
Speaker 1: him off instead, you know, And then Elliott hurt his leg.
Speaker 1: They actually did punch him a couple of times because
Speaker 1: he was like fighting with them, and yet to him,
Speaker 1: that was the ultimate end. He was he was the
Speaker 1: police were even called and like so on and so forth,
Speaker 1: and he was injured and had to stay with his
Speaker 1: mom for a while. His leg was actually kind of
Speaker 1: messed up, but in his mind at that point, there
Speaker 1: was almost no going back, and he decided he had
Speaker 1: to go through with it, even though he still delayed it,
Speaker 1: like you said, because he had injured himself. He had
Speaker 1: to put it off because he wasn't ready. But that
Speaker 1: was sort of the end for him as far as
Speaker 1: like him thinking that he could fit in.
Speaker 5: He was posting some videos prior to his master plan,
Speaker 5: and then the police are at his bedroom door. He
Speaker 5: has guns, as you write, he has guns in there,
Speaker 5: and he has the writings about his ultimate plan. Now
Speaker 5: he's terrified of everything, but there's this knock on the
Speaker 5: door what's that all about? What happens there?
Speaker 1: He well, he does the backtrack a bit too. I Mean,
Speaker 1: this is a kid that like, you know, had never
Speaker 1: been around like weapons and never like but yeah, he
Speaker 1: actually he actually bought some guns, like so if he
Speaker 1: had purchased some guns. And the videos I don't know
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen Dan, but they're like, they're so weird.
Speaker 1: I Mean, they get taken down a lot on YouTube,
Speaker 1: and then they get put back up. The Day of
Speaker 1: Retribution video you can still suffine like really easily. That's
Speaker 1: that's the one that he put up right before he
Speaker 1: you know, went off, and the Masker you can still
Speaker 1: find that one, and it's very chilling and creepy and
Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to find. But these other ones are
Speaker 1: not that easy to find. So he put up a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of videos like they was sort of like,
Speaker 1: you know, why don't girls like me? They've they've vacillated
Speaker 1: between I'm so cool and perfect and handsome and why
Speaker 1: don't girls like me? And other ones were just sort
Speaker 1: of him driving in his expensive car with like walking
Speaker 1: on sunshine with Katrina and the waves going on in
Speaker 1: the background. But he he also some of them. He
Speaker 1: said some really weird, disturbing things, and his mother had
Speaker 1: seen one of them, and so she called the police.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't tell all yet, but she called the police kind
Speaker 1: of like to do a wellness check. So, yeah, they
Speaker 1: showed up. He had like all sorts of writings, he
Speaker 1: had his guns, like, he had writings of his plans
Speaker 1: and his guns and so on and so forth, and
Speaker 1: he basically just told them that his mother was a
Speaker 1: quote unquote worry wart. And then he was fine, you
Speaker 1: know that that he you know, that he didn't really
Speaker 1: mean anything and that everything was good. And then he
Speaker 1: took all the police, you know, they taught to him,
Speaker 1: they left, and then he took all his videos down
Speaker 1: at that point. He ended up uploading a bunch more
Speaker 1: again later, but at that point he took him all
Speaker 1: down and and just kind of went on with his stuff.
Speaker 1: But he was really frightened that they would have found
Speaker 1: his plans and stopped the whole thing. And they could
Speaker 1: have potentially if they if they went in and searched
Speaker 1: his own but there's all sorts of you know, there's
Speaker 1: all sorts of civil rights stuff around that too, So
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they necessarily even should have done that.
Speaker 1: I mean, it would have been great if they did, obviously,
Speaker 1: but hindsight's always on twenty twenty. In situations like that.
Speaker 5: What does his parents do as a result of this
Speaker 5: welfare check?
Speaker 1: And these videos, well at this point, at this point,
Speaker 1: he was seeing they had hired a life coach. They
Speaker 1: actually even hired some younger people that were that were
Speaker 1: that were almost like you know, paid friends that would
Speaker 1: go out and have coffee with him, things like that,
Speaker 1: And they had hired a life coach, and he had
Speaker 1: gone back to his he'd gone back to a psychiatrist too,
Speaker 1: you know that that was always spotty, and you when
Speaker 1: you go through his records and you go through the
Speaker 1: you know, the the reports, there's the reports of him
Speaker 1: going to psychiatrists and and different doctors, but it's unclear
Speaker 1: like how much time there is in between. So I
Speaker 1: believe that he had not seen the psychiatrists for quite
Speaker 1: a while and they just started after these videos like,
Speaker 1: you know, having family sessions with psychiatrists. But really what
Speaker 1: they were talking about was what's Elliot's relationship with his
Speaker 1: with his stepmother and so on and so forth. They
Speaker 1: weren't no one was aware that that he even the
Speaker 1: videos that he put up should be clear. He didn't
Speaker 1: threaten violence against anybody. He was just acting very weird.
Speaker 1: He wasn't saying he was going to kill everybody or
Speaker 1: anything like that. No, so he lied to the psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: he lied to his family, so nothing ever really came
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 5: He has a plan for April twenty fourth, and like
Speaker 5: I mentioned, he has an accident, so he has to
Speaker 5: push it to May twenty fourth, two thousand and fourteen.
Speaker 5: What about this manifesto besides the videos? And he takes
Speaker 5: some videos down and puts some other videos up. What
Speaker 5: is contained in this manifesto? And he sends this to.
Speaker 1: Who well, I mean right before he right before he
Speaker 1: does everything. He sent it to He sent it to
Speaker 1: his life coach, he sent it to his mother, and
Speaker 1: he sent it to his father. I mean, what's in
Speaker 1: it is is Again, as he goes, he just deteriorates
Speaker 1: more and more to the extent that he really feels
Speaker 1: that that society throughout it is that he didn't do this.
Speaker 1: The society, society did it to him, and right and
Speaker 1: women have been so cruel to him all along, and
Speaker 1: you know, he had no choice but to show everybody
Speaker 1: is true worth and so on and so forth. And
Speaker 1: he also is very clear that he's that he's aware
Speaker 1: that he's you know, he doesn't even want to survive it,
Speaker 1: like he he doesn't want to go to jail or prison.
Speaker 1: But him starting off as such a mild, meek young
Speaker 1: man and then turning into this you know, psychotic killer.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a very interesting and scary, you know,
Speaker 1: transgression obviously, but the manifesto, just like the video, he
Speaker 1: can find it pretty easily online and as I stated before,
Speaker 1: us is one of the reasons I was interested in
Speaker 1: writing the book because it's an incredible it's an incredible
Speaker 1: thing to read. So yeah, I kind of got lost
Speaker 1: track there was what was your question about what he
Speaker 1: was thinking of?
Speaker 5: Basically the gist of the manifesto we know of his
Speaker 5: philosophy all along, but he includes everything from you know
Speaker 5: that these women are beasts and the people that they
Speaker 5: associate with our beasts. So they should be eliminated. They
Speaker 5: shouldn't be allowed, they shouldn't be allowed to exist. His pain,
Speaker 5: his suffering, he talks about, so he has to inflict pain,
Speaker 5: and and he has had fantasies that we didn't talk
Speaker 5: about about actually flailing someone alive, so torture becomes one
Speaker 5: of his fantasies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's part Yeah, Well, I was just going
Speaker 1: to say that's a big part of his plan is
Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about his last roommates yet, but
Speaker 1: a big part of his plan is is killing his roommates.
Speaker 1: So we can set up a torture chamber and as
Speaker 1: a potter man and lure all sorts of attractive women
Speaker 1: in there and and and men and and kill them
Speaker 1: one by one, torture them, flay the skins for the bones. Really,
Speaker 1: he gets really bizarre here, you know, I mean, the
Speaker 1: whole thing's bizarre, but at this point it's beyond bizarre.
Speaker 1: You know, he wants to cut off their heads and
Speaker 1: put them in bags, and then later during his day
Speaker 1: of retribution, he's going to like stand on the street
Speaker 1: and open up the bag and like you know, kind
Speaker 1: of throw all the heads out, and so on and
Speaker 1: so forth. The showroomin how powerful he is and is
Speaker 1: really beyond the pale, absolutely bizarre. You know, at this point,
Speaker 1: what's in his manifesto and what he's thinking about what
Speaker 1: he's going.
Speaker 5: To do right now, let's get to the actual day
Speaker 5: in question. It's fascinating and heartbreaking and very vivid. Part
Speaker 5: of the book is when the parents are alerted, first
Speaker 5: the mother, then the father. But tell it. Take us
Speaker 5: to that day and what he does the roommates, his
Speaker 5: planning is what he is assembled in terms of weaponry
Speaker 5: us about that.
Speaker 1: Sure, he had a he had a glock pistol, and
Speaker 1: he also had a I don't even know how this is,
Speaker 1: but it's an sig sour pistol. I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: for pronounce that correctly, But that he bought over about
Speaker 1: over time, and he had been going to like a
Speaker 1: firing range and like practicing on them and so on
Speaker 1: and so forth. And it's kind of important a little
Speaker 1: bit to even talk about the roommates that he was
Speaker 1: living with. He was living with two Asian guys that
Speaker 1: he considered complete nerds. He didn't like them, they didn't
Speaker 1: like him. There was a variety of altercations. At one
Speaker 1: point he even called the police because he accused one
Speaker 1: of his roommates of stealing stealing a pair of like,
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of six dollars candles and so
Speaker 1: on and so forth. Didn't they did not like like
Speaker 1: each other at all. So so basically in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night. They don't know exactly when his roommates
Speaker 1: were killed, and they think they were killed about three
Speaker 1: hours before he went out and started his started his rampage.
Speaker 1: But he killed his roommates one by one. And see,
Speaker 1: this is what to me, this is like so bizarre
Speaker 1: because even as he's writing all this stuff, and he's
Speaker 1: gonna be saying all this stuff, he's still Elliott Roger.
Speaker 1: Like he's five four, he probably weighs one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty pounds. He'd never been in a fight in his
Speaker 1: life until he was beaten up. And even then he
Speaker 1: wasn't really in a fight. He basically just beaten, all right.
Speaker 1: So he goes from that to doing this. So these
Speaker 1: roommates come in, two roommates and a friend. I always
Speaker 1: say roommates, but that's not true. There were three different victims,
Speaker 1: two roommates and a friend. So they came in one
Speaker 1: by one, you know, half hour hour apart. No one
Speaker 1: knows for sure this part when they were killed for sure,
Speaker 1: but they were definitely killed separately, and he would attack
Speaker 1: them with a knife, each one individually with a knife
Speaker 1: stabbed them like numerous times until they were dead, and
Speaker 1: then he would drag a body into the bedroom, cover
Speaker 1: it with like towels and blankets, and wait for the
Speaker 1: next person to arrive. Now it's important to say too
Speaker 1: that in the manifesto, there's nothing about this, Like the
Speaker 1: manifesto goes up. You know, he doesn't write about what
Speaker 1: he did with the with the roommates before he went
Speaker 1: back out and killed so so there were three different
Speaker 1: people he did that, and then he then he you know,
Speaker 1: sat in his apartment and I imagine, you know, his plan,
Speaker 1: which is so bizarre that he's going to lure people
Speaker 1: in there and kill them and torture them. I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, I'm not saying this to be funny
Speaker 1: or facetious, but I mean, he'd never been able to
Speaker 1: lure a woman into his apartment anyway, that's right not
Speaker 1: to mention with three dead bodies in there, so there's
Speaker 1: not much chance that he's going to be able to
Speaker 1: do it now. So that part never came to fruition.
Speaker 1: I mean, he killed the roommates in theory because that
Speaker 1: was part of his plan, was to lure people knowing
Speaker 1: his apartment and kill other people in his apartment, but
Speaker 1: that never happened. So then there's like a period of
Speaker 1: a belief maybe like you know, again, no one knows
Speaker 1: exactly when, but for a period of time he didn't
Speaker 1: do anything at all. And then he was seen like
Speaker 1: outside in his car at one point, like you know,
Speaker 1: you know, plan on his laptop. He got a Starbucks
Speaker 1: like coffee a few hours before. This is all like
Speaker 1: around eight thirty at night. So again, the roommates were
Speaker 1: killed sometime earlier in the day, their bodies weren't found
Speaker 1: until the next day. So then he went to a
Speaker 1: sorority house, the Alpha Pli sorority house, like where he
Speaker 1: considered it to be where the women were the most
Speaker 1: attractive sorority like at the school. So he had planned
Speaker 1: this particular sorority house. His plan was he was going
Speaker 1: to go in and kill all of them basically purely
Speaker 1: for the crime of being, in his opinion, like really attractive,
Speaker 1: you know. So he went there and he knocked on
Speaker 1: the door, and he continued to knocking the door, and
Speaker 1: for some reason, nobody answered it. It's kind of odd
Speaker 1: because people even said afterwards that they would hear people
Speaker 1: not the door is locked and he knocked, and people
Speaker 1: would hear people knocking on the door, and people would
Speaker 1: you know, someone would go see who it wasn't let
Speaker 1: him in, but for some reason nobody did. So now
Speaker 1: his plan has already gone completely. I mean, obviously his
Speaker 1: plan would never have gone the way he wanted it
Speaker 1: to because it was insane. But his plans already got
Speaker 1: out the window. No torture chamber. He couldn't get into
Speaker 1: the sorority house, so he basically just starts shooting. He
Speaker 1: gets back in his car and he just starts shooting
Speaker 1: people randomly. He shoots two women, three women, actually two
Speaker 1: of them die, the other one survives. He just pulls
Speaker 1: up to them and just starts shooting. I mean, throughout
Speaker 1: this massacre, throughout this attack like this, a series of
Speaker 1: stories and people just saying that he just pulled up
Speaker 1: to them in his BMW. This guy up looked at
Speaker 1: them and you know, started shooting. So two of those
Speaker 1: women died, one survived. He then just kept driving around
Speaker 1: the neighborhood, hitting people with his car. He killed another
Speaker 1: man with a shot that was trying to get into
Speaker 1: a deli, killed him, hit numerous bicyclists, side swept cars,
Speaker 1: just mayhem, I mean absolutely mayhem until eventually, I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously the police were on the scene fairly quickly. One
Speaker 1: of them took a shot at Elliott. Well he was
Speaker 1: shot at before and missed, but one of them actually
Speaker 1: hit Elliott in the thigh. Elliott crashed his car and
Speaker 1: he ended up shooting himself in the head. And that was,
Speaker 1: you know, very different than what his and he died,
Speaker 1: very different than what his plan actually was. And what
Speaker 1: you were alluding to earlier was, yes, so that right
Speaker 1: before he went out and started these attacks, he had
Speaker 1: sent the manifesto. Andy had uploaded the video the day
Speaker 1: of retribution video. His mother saw it, talked to his father,
Speaker 1: and as this was going on, they were racing from
Speaker 1: their home to Santa Barbara, trying to call his self,
Speaker 1: trying to get in touch with him, calling the police,
Speaker 1: until they were finally told to pull over and the
Speaker 1: police let them know that their son had died. A
Speaker 1: very very bizarre day and horrible day. Obviously.
Speaker 5: Yeah, in the wake of this tragedy, what has happened
Speaker 5: with the inceell online community, And we talked, we alluded
Speaker 5: to in the introduction about copycats. So this disaster, all
Speaker 5: these unique confluence of events and circumstances and this young
Speaker 5: man's insane. But you say that there's copycasts, there's other
Speaker 5: cases this from this the aftermath.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And again I want to be clear too, because
Speaker 1: I for the book, I interviewed a guy that he's
Speaker 1: the he's he runs on a site called in cells
Speaker 1: dot co that that's the most popular, you know, so
Speaker 1: called chat room for insults. But since Elliott did that
Speaker 1: and they're not, my point is that I'm not even
Speaker 1: trying to allude to the fact that everyone that identifies
Speaker 1: with an insuller goes on the site like this is
Speaker 1: a is a murderous lunatic. But at the same point,
Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. But at the same point, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people, whether it's jokingly or not, that
Speaker 1: they refer to Elliott Roger as Saint Elliott's. When I
Speaker 1: say a lot of people I'm saying insults, they refer
Speaker 1: to Saint Elliot's like they talk about going er I
Speaker 1: meaning you know, his initials when they get angry. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of people on these sites that that say
Speaker 1: that women should be you know, put in concentration camps,
Speaker 1: that rape should be legal, that They basically say the
Speaker 1: very same things that Elliott Roger did in his manifesto.
Speaker 1: The whole Supreme Gentleman thing is kind of like because people,
Speaker 1: you know, they talk about it all the time on
Speaker 1: these sites, you know, they call him the Supreme Gentleman.
Speaker 1: Some of them, of course, are trolling in a sense,
Speaker 1: but but some of them, you know, some of them aren't.
Speaker 1: And there have been a I wouldn't say a huge
Speaker 1: amount of copycuts, and some of them are. Some of
Speaker 1: them are sort of alluded to his being copycut killings,
Speaker 1: but but they might not be, but they're most The
Speaker 1: biggest one is Alec Maniason, who was in Toronto. He
Speaker 1: did a van attack right where he killed numerous people,
Speaker 1: I think around ten and injured a bunch of others.
Speaker 1: He did it with a he just rammed people in
Speaker 1: his van and he you know, actually put on on Facebook,
Speaker 1: you know, something to the effect of the in cell
Speaker 1: rebellions has begun. I'll hail Elliott Roger. A bunch of
Speaker 1: other killers have referenced Elliott Roger and their writings before.
Speaker 1: They've before, they've before, they've all the same type of
Speaker 1: thing where a guy in Florida, Scott Barley. He's a
Speaker 1: Tallahassee guy that went into a yogas shop studio and
Speaker 1: killed a bunch of women. So another guy, Christopher Harper Mercer.
Speaker 1: These guys all would reference Elliott Roger and or at
Speaker 1: least talk about themselves being in the cells before before
Speaker 1: they did their crime their killings. So it's become a thing.
Speaker 1: The Southern Poverty Law Centers now called in Cells a
Speaker 1: hate group because of their misogyny. The website that I
Speaker 1: just referenced, they used to be on Reddit read it
Speaker 1: shut them down because of the things that they were saying,
Speaker 1: and Reddit doesn't shut people down that easily. Then they
Speaker 1: had a website hosted in the United States that host
Speaker 1: shut them down because the things that were saying. Last
Speaker 1: I knew they were posted out of the sight in Iceland.
Speaker 1: So it's a very bizarre subculture. And again I want
Speaker 1: to be clear that that, you know, I mean, internet
Speaker 1: trolls are everywhere. It's like, it's like you've got to
Speaker 1: be able to differentiate, you know that some of these
Speaker 1: guys are just this guy's messing around on the Internet.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's cool. I'm just also not saying
Speaker 1: they're all potential potential killers because they're certainly not.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of talk, a lot of talk
Speaker 5: on the internet, right, Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: I mean I think it would be irresponsible, you know,
Speaker 1: like not not actually say that because because yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean a lot of them are just That's why I
Speaker 1: even said. Some of these guys that ended up even
Speaker 1: ended up killing people, they didn't reference just reference Elliott Rodgery.
Speaker 1: They represented other people too, like Nicholas Cruz, the Markland shooter,
Speaker 1: He's one of the guys he referenced Elliot Roger, but
Speaker 1: he also had a marry out of of other issues.
Speaker 1: So it would be it would be kind of an
Speaker 1: irresponsible to think that Elliott Rodgers there was the reason
Speaker 1: Nicholas Crews did what he did. But there are a
Speaker 1: couple in particular Menassian, who waved that insult flag completely
Speaker 1: and that's the only reason, according to them, that they
Speaker 1: did it was their hatred of Warnable.
Speaker 5: Incredible. I want to thank you very much Brian for
Speaker 5: coming on and talking about the Supreme Gentleman Killer, the
Speaker 5: story of an inceell mass murderer. It's been fascinating. This
Speaker 5: is a wild Blue Press release and how can they
Speaker 5: is there a Facebook page or a website they might
Speaker 5: take a look at.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hey Dan, I always appreciate you having me on
Speaker 1: and it's always it's always interesting. Yeah, you can buy
Speaker 1: it through Avenue. I do a website. I have a
Speaker 1: website on brianwinneauthor dot com. You can buy the book
Speaker 1: on Amazon, you can buy it through wild Blue, you
Speaker 1: can buy it anywhere basically online. It's a it's a
Speaker 1: really weird story. Like I said, I was, I was
Speaker 1: very surprised that no one had ever the main reason
Speaker 1: I wrote the book. As I said, I was like
Speaker 1: kind of surprising you've never had It's kind of like
Speaker 1: a story waiting to be told.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and you've done an admirable job. Thank you very
Speaker 5: much for The Supreme Gentleman Killer, the Story of an
Speaker 5: insull mass murderer. Thank you very much, Brian Wit. You
Speaker 5: have a great night. Thank you, good night.
Speaker 1: To take care. They