1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Over Murder. 15 00:00:44,359 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and. 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: We are happy to join you this lovely December day. 17 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,000 And by lovely, we both mean pouring rain in both 18 00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:56,960 of our locations. 19 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: So much for the know in Connecticut, it's all melting away. 20 00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: There. I still can't believe you live in a place 21 00:01:07,599 --> 00:01:08,879 where there is snow. 22 00:01:09,879 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: It's called the northeastern part of the United States. We 23 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:13,480 do get snow here. 24 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 3: No snow is beautiful for about five ten minutes, long 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,879 enough to take a nice walk in it while it's falling. 26 00:01:22,159 --> 00:01:24,680 And then now we're done. 27 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:27,439 Speaker 2: We're down to a twenty five percent chance of a 28 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,359 white Christmas here in Connecticut, according to our Hartford and 29 00:01:31,359 --> 00:01:33,040 Boston weather forecasts. 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,359 Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, but you normally do have white Christmases? 31 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, but with climate change not so much. 32 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,599 Speaker 3: I can't remember the last time we had a white 33 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,599 Christmas here, but that could also be because my memory 34 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:50,640 does not extend that far back. Who knows. Along with 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,480 winter weather and the month of December comes holiday shopping. 36 00:01:56,079 --> 00:01:59,200 And with that in mind, it is time for the 37 00:01:59,239 --> 00:02:05,079 Mind Over Murder twenty twenty four True Crime Holiday Gift Guide. 38 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:07,719 It's a little bit later coming to you this year 39 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:11,360 than we would normally like, but life happens and we're 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,479 here with it now, and that's the main thing. 41 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:17,039 Speaker 2: This is true and we're very excited about it. And 42 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,599 this was put together courtesy of Kristin Dilly, in between 43 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,400 handling family and medical emergencies, etc. Has jumped right back 44 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:27,599 into Mind over Murder. 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: I always enjoy putting together something like the True Crime 46 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,479 Holiday Gift Guide because it lets me flex my writing muscles. 47 00:02:34,719 --> 00:02:36,479 It's nice to be able to sit down for a 48 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:38,759 little bit of time and bang out something like. 49 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: This, And it doesn't involve correcting students papers. 50 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:47,039 Speaker 3: Precisely, it does not involve correcting students papers. In fact, 51 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,439 when I need a break from my essay grating, I'll 52 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,000 usually decide, okay, I can take twenty minutes and work 53 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:57,240 on something for the podcast. And so maybe that's banging 54 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,479 this out or doing some research or writing interview questions. Yes, 55 00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:06,039 my real job and this job actually intersect quite often 56 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,400 during the day because I use one to take a 57 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:09,199 break from the other. 58 00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 2: We appreciate it. So let's jump into it. Happy holidays, everybody. 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,319 Speaker 3: Happy holidays, and we are here to help you with 60 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:22,560 all of your Holidays shopping needs, whether it is a 61 00:03:22,599 --> 00:03:26,680 gift for yourself or for the true crime aficionado in 62 00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:31,240 your life. We humbly submit that you cannot go wrong 63 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,719 with these really great gift suggestions. 64 00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: So if it's Christmas, Kwanzahkah d Wali, or any other 65 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:48,759 holiday you may celebrate. Oh and there's also of course 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,039 the Solstice and best of Us for the rest of us. 67 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: Best of Us for the rest of us, I knew 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,439 you were going to get to it at some point 69 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,520 or another. And we actually do both Christmas and Hanukkah 70 00:03:58,599 --> 00:04:01,840 in our household because my life partner is Jewish, she 71 00:04:01,879 --> 00:04:06,120 does celebrate Hankkah. And this year Hankkah actually starts on 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,680 Christmas Night Christmas Day. 73 00:04:08,599 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: Rather, Oh it's late, it does. 74 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,199 Speaker 3: It does. Actually, Yeah, it was early last year and 75 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,279 late this year. So we're trying to figure out whose 76 00:04:17,319 --> 00:04:20,160 house are we going to be celebrating at. And I 77 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,000 think we're just going to have to split the day 78 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,399 into two and do Christmas in the morning and then 79 00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:26,560 Hanakah in the evening. 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,879 Speaker 2: That sounds lovely. I just read an article this afternoon 81 00:04:29,879 --> 00:04:31,680 that I wanted to share with you, which is that 82 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,199 apparently people are getting sick of Mariah Carey's All I 83 00:04:36,319 --> 00:04:40,800 Want for Christmas is you? And I'm thinking to myself, 84 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,319 I've been sick of that song for years. Why did 85 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:45,839 it take everybody else so long? 86 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:50,439 Speaker 3: Yeah? Like, why are people just now getting sick of it? 87 00:04:50,439 --> 00:04:52,680 It has been many years since I worked retail and 88 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:53,720 I was sick of it then. 89 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's funny. I also this article I read 90 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:02,000 said she has crowned herself the Queen of Christmas, and 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,519 I don't think I got a vote in that regard. 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,040 She's not Queen of Christmas at my house, not at all. 93 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,959 Speaker 3: I really do not like that song. My only other 94 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,439 Christmas hot take before we jump into our holiday gift 95 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,079 guide is I Will Die on this Hill. My favorite 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,720 things from the Sound of Music is not a Christmas carol, 97 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,759 and I keep hearing it on the Christmas station. It 98 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,319 is not a Christmas song. Yes, it mentions sleigh bells 99 00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:32,600 and packages, but it's not a Christmas song. That's my 100 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:33,120 hot take. 101 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,759 Speaker 2: I'm confused, which song are you talking about. 102 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 3: These are a few of my favorite things from the 103 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:39,519 Sound of Music. 104 00:05:40,199 --> 00:05:41,759 Speaker 2: I don't think it's a Christmas song either. 105 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,319 Speaker 3: No, I don't think it is, but it gets played 106 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:44,759 as one. 107 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: I work for ASKAP, the Songwriters organization, for many years, 108 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,399 and I met a lot of legendary songwriters. A number 109 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,160 of them told me that writing a successful Christmas song 110 00:05:58,519 --> 00:06:02,399 is a little bit like hitting the line, because if 111 00:06:02,439 --> 00:06:05,879 you are lucky enough to write a song that's a hit, 112 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,800 which is a challenge in and of itself, not to 113 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:13,000 mention a Christmas seasonal favorite. They refer to them as evergreens, 114 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,879 because they are the gift that keep on giving a 115 00:06:16,959 --> 00:06:20,680 number of songwriters have said to me that their successful 116 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,319 Christmas songs earn them more money than any other song 117 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,720 in their catalog, even though they're only typically played about 118 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:28,519 one month a year. 119 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 3: Wow, that is a great piece of Triviael Jose Feliciano 120 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,800 told me that Felice Navidad, which he wrote, He said, 121 00:06:38,879 --> 00:06:44,120 I wanted to have a Spanish language Christmas song for 122 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:45,000 my kids. 123 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: Now, he actually didn't write that many songs. He mostly 124 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,759 did other people's songs, but he said that song has 125 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,800 made him a lot of money. And he said I 126 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,360 wrote it just to give my kids a Christmas present, 127 00:06:58,439 --> 00:07:01,759 and then the record company loved it and it's gotten 128 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:03,800 played for all these years. 129 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,319 Speaker 3: Wow, that's terrific. I love knowing that. So Tales from 130 00:07:09,399 --> 00:07:12,199 Hollywood with mister Bill Thomas. I think that's going to 131 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:13,639 be our next podcast venture. 132 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 2: Okay, let's see I can I can review some good 133 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,959 stories that well known songwriters have and lesser known songwriters 134 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,959 of well known songs have told me. We'll figure that out. 135 00:07:27,519 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, We'll keep pitching that, see how it goes. As 136 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,439 we get into our true crime holiday gift guide. We 137 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:36,879 would like to make sure that we encourage you this 138 00:07:36,959 --> 00:07:43,120 holiday season to shop locally and support small businesses whenever possible. 139 00:07:43,639 --> 00:07:45,920 Most of the items on this gift guide are going 140 00:07:45,959 --> 00:07:49,399 to be available through your local indie bookstores, and if 141 00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:52,480 they're not on the shelf, please ask them to order 142 00:07:52,519 --> 00:07:56,439 it for you. If you shop local and shop small, 143 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,519 you can help small businesses stay afloat during this holiday 144 00:07:59,519 --> 00:08:01,879 season and you put more money into your local economy, 145 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,519 and that is a win for everyone. Bill, I know 146 00:08:05,639 --> 00:08:08,759 that Pamela shows a lot of her work at small businesses, 147 00:08:09,279 --> 00:08:11,360 so I know that is something that is near and 148 00:08:11,399 --> 00:08:12,639 dear to both of your hearts. 149 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:15,399 Speaker 2: Correct it is, And as a matter of fact, Pamela 150 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,000 felt like I did not have enough Christmas presents under 151 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,040 the tree, and so she said, Bill, there must be 152 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,360 more things you want. And I said, I really want 153 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,839 the new John Grisham book, the nonfiction book. It's just 154 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:32,080 out now and we'll hopefully be exploring that more in 155 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:34,840 the near future. I gave her a list and she 156 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,279 went off and she went to Oblong Books, which is 157 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,519 a really nice indie bookstore not far from us, and 158 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,759 drove over there, and this was Tuesday yesterday, and she 159 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,240 said she kind of had the place to herself and 160 00:08:47,279 --> 00:08:49,799 that people were very excited to see her and had 161 00:08:49,799 --> 00:08:52,519 all kinds of stuff to check off on the bill 162 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:53,320 Christmas list. 163 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: Here we go to support your local bookstore. To that end, 164 00:08:57,799 --> 00:09:00,000 with small businesses in mind, we also want to encourag 165 00:09:00,159 --> 00:09:03,799 you to buy merch that supports your favorite podcasts, whether 166 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:06,960 that is ours we humbly submit that we are one 167 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,879 of your favorite podcasts we certainly hope, or whether it 168 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,759 is someone else's. Please know that all of your podcasters 169 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:17,399 do have merch of some variety, and you can buy 170 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,279 all of ours through tea Public. Go to the website 171 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:28,120 teapublic dot com and they offer a wide array of shirts, sweatshirts, hoodies, stickers, mugs, notebooks, pens. 172 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:29,960 You can get our logo put up on a poster 173 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,519 or wal art, whatever you want. If you can put 174 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,840 a logo on it, tea Public probably has it in 175 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:41,320 some iteration. So if you want branded merchandise with our 176 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:45,360 logo on it, our beautiful blue thumbprint logo designed by 177 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:48,639 Bill's partner Pamela, go to tea Public dot com and 178 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,279 then type mind over Murder into the search bar, and 179 00:09:51,279 --> 00:09:55,120 that will give you everything that is available with our logo. Bill, 180 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,879 I know you've got a sweatshirt and a couple of 181 00:09:57,879 --> 00:09:58,360 T shirts. 182 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, outs, some mugs and other stuff. And 183 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,240 then plus I like Tea Public so much that I've 184 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,960 ordered all kinds of other stuff from Deep Public, vintage 185 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,639 sports cars and all kinds of stuff like that music stuff. 186 00:10:12,639 --> 00:10:15,399 Of course, you know, if you need a Steely Dan 187 00:10:15,519 --> 00:10:18,399 T shirt in addition to your mind over Murder sweatshirt, 188 00:10:19,039 --> 00:10:20,240 they have all that stuff too. 189 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: And I don't know about the men's shirts, but with 190 00:10:23,759 --> 00:10:26,960 the women's shirts, they run actually quite small. So if 191 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,679 you aren't planning on buying a shirt for the woman 192 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,919 in your life, or if you are a woman and 193 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,720 planted by a shirt for yourself, buy a size or 194 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:36,679 two bigger than what you normally wear, because they do 195 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,120 run small, and that is entirely possible that they shrink. 196 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,720 I normally wear a medium, and I buy my shirts 197 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,440 and extra large, and there's still a little They're a 198 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,320 little fitted, nicely fitted, but still so. Yeah, if you're 199 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,440 buying from Tea Public, just keep in mind that the 200 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,639 women's shirts run small. Do the guys' shirts run true 201 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,200 to size there, mister Thomas. 202 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,639 Speaker 2: I tend to buy things big two because I liked 203 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,720 a loose fitting, so I usually go with an XL, 204 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:06,080 even though I probably would wear a large in some 205 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,559 other people's stuff. So okay, I think the guys stuff does. 206 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,279 I don't know about run small, but I almost always 207 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:14,440 go up one size. 208 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 3: I think it's a safe way to go if you're 209 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,279 ordering online, but we do encourage you please go to 210 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:21,080 tea public take a look at our mind over a 211 00:11:21,159 --> 00:11:23,279 murder merch. We have plenty of it and it does 212 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,200 help support us this holiday season. We also work in 213 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,320 partnership here in Virginia with a company called The Glittered Squirrel. 214 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,000 It is a local company in the Tidewater area run 215 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:38,360 by a friend of mine, and they create beautiful custom 216 00:11:38,639 --> 00:11:44,679 tumblers and glasses. They have a true crime collection. They 217 00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:49,480 launched their true Crime collection of snazzy, snarky glassware right 218 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:53,320 around the time we were at Crime Con Nashville. They 219 00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:58,799 have a lot of wonderful, funny glasses and tumblers. They 220 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:01,679 can put our logo on a tumbler of your choice. 221 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:04,799 They can customize it with your name. There are various 222 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,440 types of toppers that you can get as well. So 223 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,840 if you would like a really unique and interesting gift 224 00:12:11,159 --> 00:12:13,519 that is not necessarily a T shirt but does have 225 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,879 something to do with our logo, go to the Glittered 226 00:12:17,279 --> 00:12:21,879 Squirrel look up their true crime collection. That is home 227 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,919 to our glassware merchandise as well, So if you want 228 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,840 a beautiful, affordable custom tumbler as a holiday gift, that 229 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,360 is a great option as well. 230 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: Not only do I like supporting local, I like supporting 231 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,519 a business that has a whacky name like the Glittered Squirrel. 232 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:41,480 It's just a great name. 233 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, my friend Michelle runs the business and she always 234 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,039 makes the joke that the Glittered Squirrel is not a 235 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:49,759 strip club. 236 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,879 Speaker 2: That hadn't even occurred to me and I have a 237 00:12:54,919 --> 00:12:57,960 dirty mind. So shall we get into some of our 238 00:12:58,039 --> 00:13:02,600 choices for the True Crime Holiday Gift guide book selection. 239 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:08,039 Speaker 3: Yes, we've already pitched you on shirts and on glasswar, 240 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,799 so we'll go ahead and pitch you guys now on 241 00:13:10,879 --> 00:13:17,240 our best choices for true crime holiday gifts the book division. 242 00:13:17,759 --> 00:13:19,919 I should point out that we have covered most of 243 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,120 these books at some point during our past year, so 244 00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:26,639 we do encourage you to support those really hard working 245 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:30,480 authors by buying their books. After you have listened to 246 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:33,600 our episode or we listen to our episode, as the 247 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,519 case maybe. And we also encourage you if you do 248 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,639 love what you have read, please leave them a review 249 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:44,600 on Amazon, good Reads, their own personal web page, and 250 00:13:44,639 --> 00:13:46,840 we of course would like to know what you thought 251 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:49,600 as well, So if you buy any of these based 252 00:13:49,639 --> 00:13:52,840 on our recommendation, let us know how you liked it. 253 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:56,519 We love hearing from our listeners, and especially we love 254 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,759 it if we can steer you in a good direction. 255 00:13:59,639 --> 00:14:01,960 All right, way we go. Let's talk about ten of 256 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,679 our favorite our favorite true crime books from across the year, 257 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:08,360 and I wanted to start with the Book of Murder 258 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,159 from Matt Murphy. We were so thrilled to have Matt 259 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,879 on the podcast because the book is an absolute joy 260 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:24,240 to read. His writing style is so approachable, it's very inviting. 261 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:28,759 It assures the reader they can understand any concept that 262 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,120 he puts in front of them, even if it's a 263 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,120 very like obscure bit of legal ease. I am not 264 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,960 an expert in any way in the justice system, but 265 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,320 being able to read from Matt's point of view made 266 00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:44,840 me feel like I could actually understand it a little 267 00:14:44,879 --> 00:14:45,519 bit better. 268 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:50,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially for someone like Matt Murphy who's a prosecutor, 269 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,519 and that the subtitle is a Prosecutor's Journey through Love 270 00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:58,840 and Death. He explains things and how the court system works, 271 00:14:58,919 --> 00:15:02,759 how propcuts utans move forward in a way that you 272 00:15:02,799 --> 00:15:05,840 can really understand. So not only is it compelling, it's 273 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:08,960 also understandable. You don't have to have a lot of degree, 274 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,919 which neither one of us have to understand what Matt 275 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,960 is walking you through. In terms of the process. 276 00:15:17,559 --> 00:15:21,879 Speaker 3: Matt happened to choose cases that are particularly harrowing, maybe 277 00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:24,919 a little bit more so than your general Drew Chrime book. 278 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,840 The cases are upsetting, but I really appreciate the fact 279 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,679 that Matt tells his stories with very real sympathy and 280 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,360 compassion for the victims, and he makes it clear, like 281 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:42,039 from page number one, that Matt's fight is for justice 282 00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:45,799 and he will continue that fight even at some great 283 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,519 personal costs, which he does outline throughout the course of 284 00:15:49,559 --> 00:15:53,440 the book. So we highly recommend this to anyone who 285 00:15:53,679 --> 00:15:57,720 wants to know more about the prosecutor's role in the courtroom. 286 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,039 Speaker 2: The Book of Murder was covered in an hour Mindover 287 00:16:01,159 --> 00:16:05,240 Murder episode number four fifteen four one five and originally 288 00:16:05,679 --> 00:16:09,559 was aired on October twenty first, twenty twenty four. 289 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 3: How do we have this many episodes? Bill? This is crazy? 290 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, this week we just let's see, we put up 291 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:22,559 episodes four, twenty nine and four hundred and thirty launches tomorrow. Now. Remember, 292 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:25,399 for the benefit of anyone that's new to Mindover Murder, 293 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,840 we run a new episode every Monday morning. We run 294 00:16:28,879 --> 00:16:34,039 a bonus episode every Thursday morning. The bonus episodes because 295 00:16:34,039 --> 00:16:37,600 we have so many episodes in the catalog now, we'll 296 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,720 go back and pick episodes that are favorites of ours 297 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:44,000 that we think deserve some additional exposure. So if you 298 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,879 only want to hear new stuff, it's typically Monday morning 299 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:50,320 and then we do. It's a repeat. As they used 300 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,080 to say when I was a kid watching TV. A 301 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:55,480 lot of times people have said to us they get 302 00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:57,639 a lot out of things, either this is the first 303 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:00,519 time they've heard it, or even if it's the second 304 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:02,960 time they've heard it, they find they get more out 305 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,759 of it. That's part of the idea of running episodes 306 00:17:05,759 --> 00:17:07,279 on Mondays and Thursdays. 307 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,519 Speaker 3: We are about to turn five years old in January. 308 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,799 We were just saying that to each other off air, 309 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,920 and it certainly feels in that five years that we 310 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,480 have put out a lot of content. So we look 311 00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:26,160 forward to producing more of it throughout the year the 312 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,640 coming up year, and we hope that you guys are 313 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:31,480 enjoying what we have put out so far, and don't 314 00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:35,720 mind those bonus reruns on Thursday. We think that they're worthwhile. 315 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,759 We want to next follow up with our one of 316 00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:44,039 our very favorite local authors and recommend the new book 317 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,440 In the Wind, The Disappearance of Janis Star by Ron 318 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:53,960 Peterson Junior, who is a longtime guest and longtime friend 319 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,880 of the podcast. In the Wind is Ron's fourth book, 320 00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:01,799 fourth hit book, I should say, because he has had 321 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:06,359 enormous success with all of his books. For my money, 322 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,640 I think that it is the most compelling one that 323 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,519 he's written, and from a writer of his caliber, that's 324 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,559 really saying something. I don't know about you, Bill, but 325 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:20,839 every new book from Ron seems to get better than 326 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,279 the last. Would you agree with that assessment? 327 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: I would, And I also thought that this story of 328 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:31,799 Janis Starr's disappearance was so compelling and the lead detective 329 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,960 k Schucker was such an interesting and compelling character. I 330 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,599 thought it was interesting that a male author was so 331 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:48,039 sympathetic and provided such a nuanced viewpoint of the challenges 332 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,880 that detective Shucker faced being an up and coming investigator 333 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,480 at a time when they were very few female investigators, 334 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,839 and the amount of institution and personal resistance she had 335 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,000 to overcome to get the job done is actually really amazing. 336 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: It truly is. So. When you look at the story 337 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,200 of Kay Shucker, who I would say is a true 338 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:18,279 pioneer for women in law enforcement, and you parent with 339 00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:23,720 this truth is Stranger than fiction story of Jani Star, 340 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,599 missing ODU student, you really just get some truly fantastic 341 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,480 true crime work. So we highly encourage you to check 342 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:35,880 In the Wind the Disappearance of Janis Star from Ron 343 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,240 Peterson Junior, and we also encourage you to check out 344 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,960 Ron's other book projects, all of which are very noteworthy 345 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:47,559 and definitely worth your time and attention. 346 00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 2: Our interview with Ron Peterson most recently discussing in the 347 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,160 Wind was our episode number three ninety one and it 348 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,160 ran July twenty ninth, twenty twenty four. 349 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 3: Another one of my favorite books from this year is 350 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:07,480 quite a small volume, but it packs an enormous emotional 351 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,559 punch and that is Dark Tide growing up with Ted 352 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:16,440 Bundy from Edna Cowell Martin. We've tended to shy away 353 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:21,720 from the sort of big ticket cases like Bundy, John Benny, 354 00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:26,480 ramsay O J. Simpson, Charles Manson because there are so 355 00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:31,039 many people who have covered that ground already. We absolutely 356 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:37,200 wanted to cover Dark Tide because Edna Cowell Martin's relationship 357 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:40,960 with Ted Bundy is so unique that it sheds an 358 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,640 entirely new viewpoint on Bundy and the side of him 359 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,400 that people think they know. If you think that you 360 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,720 know the whole entire story on Ted Bundy, you really 361 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,400 truly don't. You will only learn it once you read 362 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,960 Edna's absolutely compelling books. 363 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 2: It's a fantastic read, and Edna is a lovely, thoughtful person. 364 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,119 When she begins telling you the story and you realize 365 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,319 that she is Ted Bundy's younger cousin and someone that 366 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:18,039 really looked up to him and had a relationship with 367 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,079 him that extended back from the time when they were kids. 368 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,920 Even she began to see as he grew older the 369 00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:31,559 incredibly dark side of Bundy. She wasn't a witness to 370 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:34,519 the horrible things he was doing, but she began to 371 00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:39,319 see more and more of that darkness that had enveloped him. 372 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,480 It's a really fascinating book. 373 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,839 Speaker 3: It is, for my money, the most compelling book on Bundy, 374 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,519 because it really does give you glimpses of the madness 375 00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:57,960 that existed underneath this terribly charismatic man, and it allows 376 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,240 you to see up close the pain and the trauma 377 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:07,000 that family members of serial killers go through, even decades 378 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:10,799 after the fact. I think that when we consider the 379 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,079 victims of serial killers, oftentimes we forget the family members 380 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,759 that are left behind, who are just as traumatized and 381 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,480 just as upset by what their family members have done. 382 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,079 I really enjoyed getting Edna's point of view on the 383 00:22:27,079 --> 00:22:30,680 whole entire thing, and I would recommend this book to 384 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:35,039 anybody who was interested in Bundy or thinks they know 385 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,640 the whole story on Bundy, because trust me, you don't 386 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,319 know the half of it, not till you've read Edna's book. 387 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: We covered Dark Tide on our Mind Over Murder episode 388 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:49,440 number four oh nine, which originally ran on September thirtieth, 389 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,880 twenty twenty four. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 390 00:22:53,920 --> 00:23:02,319 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 391 00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:03,839 back here at mindover Murder. 392 00:23:05,319 --> 00:23:08,279 Speaker 3: Next we have The Serial Killers of Prentice, the true 393 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:11,920 story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into 394 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,759 a killing machine, written by friend of the podcast doctor 395 00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:21,759 Catherine Ramsland and co author Tracy Ullman. I would venture 396 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,279 to say that you will never go wrong with any 397 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,240 book of Catherine Ramsland's that you pick up, and as 398 00:23:29,319 --> 00:23:32,240 we know from talking to the good doctor, she has 399 00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:36,240 written a vast multitude of them, and at this point 400 00:23:36,279 --> 00:23:39,359 she's also branching into fiction, so do check out her 401 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:40,319 fiction work too. 402 00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 2: She's written over seventy books at this point, which is 403 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:45,759 pretty amazing. 404 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 3: I don't know where she finds the time, quite frankly, 405 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,160 Like I have joked with her before, does she have 406 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,440 a time turner from Harry Potter? Like? How is she 407 00:23:56,519 --> 00:23:59,039 getting more out of her days than most of us 408 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,240 are able to handy? 409 00:24:01,279 --> 00:24:06,519 Speaker 2: Wouldn't it? Actually? If? Oh, gee, writing seventy books. 410 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,759 Speaker 3: I would love a time turner just to be able 411 00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:10,480 to get done the errands that I need to do, 412 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,680 much less being able to sit and crank out seventy books. 413 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,359 Catherine is prolific and she's wonderful, and when you add 414 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,839 in the sharp research and reporting from Tracy Ullman, you've 415 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,519 got a book that practically sears on the page. I 416 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:28,880 really loved it, and it is one of those books. 417 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,839 It sounds like a cliche, but I truly could not 418 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,039 put it down. It was so compelling. As always will 419 00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:39,200 do a trigger warning on here, the content is very 420 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,799 dark and extremely upsetting because it is talking about the 421 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:49,960 sexual abuse of underage boys. It is a very interesting 422 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:57,480 story about control, coercion and manipulation that turned an impressionable 423 00:24:57,519 --> 00:25:00,519 but mainly good young man into a ca killer of 424 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:05,799 other children. As someone who works with teenagers and works 425 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:09,480 with kids, the tips that they offer at the back 426 00:25:09,559 --> 00:25:13,839 of the book about keeping children safe from predators is 427 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,720 some of the most important tips that any parent could 428 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:22,279 read about keeping their kids safe in a world that 429 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,759 is increasingly not necessarily so we highly encourage you to 430 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,599 check out The Serial Killer's Apprentice and also everything else 431 00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:32,279 that Catherine Ramslin has written. 432 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: On a lighter note, the Tracy Ullman, who is a 433 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,000 co writer on The Serial Killers Apprentice, is not the 434 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,400 wonderful British comedian and pop star from the nineteen eighties 435 00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:48,319 whose name is also Tracy Ullman. 436 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. Someone had actually asked me about that, just someone 437 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:56,640 who only glancingly is familiar with my podcast. They had asked. 438 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,240 They said, wait, you were talking about this book in 439 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,000 the one episode I listened to, and you said Tracy Allman. 440 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:06,039 They were like, do you mean the comedian And I'm like, no, no, 441 00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,599 They're like, but she has the same name, and I'm like, 442 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,079 it's that it's not the same person. Please trust me. 443 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely not. 444 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 3: I don't even think that we asked her about how 445 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,519 often she gets mistaken for that, Chris, Did we even 446 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:19,960 ask that. 447 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: I don't know that we did. 448 00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: Now. 449 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: As soon as we met Tracy electronically and started talking 450 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,319 to her. She's not British, she is not a petite 451 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,759 woman with dark hair, and she looked completely different. It 452 00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:35,240 was definitely not the same Tracy Almen. 453 00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: I just wonder how often she gets people asking. 454 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:44,039 Speaker 2: It has to happen from time to time. I would 455 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:48,400 imagine we covered the Serial Killer's Apprentice on Mind Over 456 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,000 Murder episode three sixty one, which ran April fifteenth. 457 00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:55,839 Speaker 3: These dates are all kind of blurring together. I could 458 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,759 have sworn that we talked to Catherine and Tracy way 459 00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:02,680 Le later in the year, I'm realizing that my time 460 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:06,880 differential here is not exactly what I had thought it was. 461 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 2: What's the name of that Harry Potter machine? You need again? 462 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 3: The time turner? 463 00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: The time turner, we need two of those. I think 464 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:16,200 we need. 465 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 3: A couple of them for sure. We also wanted to 466 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,640 highlight a really excellent book from earlier in this year 467 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:25,640 called Trail of the Lost, The Relentless Search to bring 468 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,599 Home the Missing Hikers of the Pacific Cress Trail from 469 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:36,400 Andrea Lankford. I particularly enjoyed talking to Andy and reading 470 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,559 this really excellent book because being so close to the AT, 471 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:46,160 we often hear stories about hikers on the AT, hikers 472 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,279 in peril, or even just people who are really working 473 00:27:49,319 --> 00:27:53,119 on records for fastest known hiking time or something like that. 474 00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:57,960 You don't actually hear all that often stories about the 475 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,119 Pacific Cresstrail on the West Coast. I enjoyed this book 476 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:06,880 because it gave me some perspective on what the PCT 477 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,799 is like, and it sounds horrifying, actually far more dangerous 478 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:16,880 than the AT. And I liked getting into the search 479 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,200 and rescue component of this story because that's not something 480 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,640 I had ever spent a lot of time thinking about. 481 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: No, and I've made a decision that the next time 482 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:28,759 I go for a walk in the woods, I'm going 483 00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:32,200 to ask Andrea Langford to go with me, because she's 484 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:36,680 amazing and clearly knows what she's doing out in the 485 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,920 middle of the Boonies, whether there are good people or 486 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,319 bad people along the trail of Andrea is the person 487 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,440 I want to go hiking with. 488 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,519 Speaker 3: Oh one hundred percent, and her established career as an 489 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,400 NPS ranger gives her just enormous credibility, and it makes 490 00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:59,200 the science of search and rescue, as she lays it 491 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,200 out in the book, absolutely fascinating. It was a real 492 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:05,440 joy to read, and I was a little worried that 493 00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:07,400 maybe I was going to get bored by it. I've 494 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,839 never seen the PCT. I wasn't sure I was going 495 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,400 to be able to picture it. But no, this was 496 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:16,079 absolutely fascinating. I loved it. It was a wonderful book, 497 00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:20,079 and I highly encourage anyone who hikes, whether it's just 498 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,440 your walk in the woods or long distance, to check 499 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,359 out Trail of the Lost. It is very interesting and 500 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:27,759 very moving as well. 501 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: And if you liked Trailed by our friend Catherine Miles 502 00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:36,319 which covered the Appalachian Trail and the Shenandoah National Park 503 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:39,799 and the murder of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. This 504 00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:43,920 is the West Coast partner to that with Yes, a 505 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,720 series of missing hikers on the Pacific Crest Trail, an 506 00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:50,680 area of the country that I was less familiar with. 507 00:29:51,079 --> 00:29:54,680 Andrea's writing is so beautiful and so compelling, you really 508 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:55,839 feel like you've been there. 509 00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think you could definitely do work than buying 510 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,559 someone both Trailed and Trail of the Lost and bookinging 511 00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,240 them together for a Christmas gift. I think that would 512 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:10,279 be great. And I would also throw in there's something 513 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,400 that's not on this year's list, but was on the 514 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,880 list two years ago. It's called The Cold Vanish by 515 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,839 John Billman, and that is about people who disappear all 516 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,200 across the country every year on hiking trails, residential trails, 517 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,279 and so on and so forth. If you're looking for 518 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,559 three really good books about search and rescue that may 519 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:31,480 make you think twice before you go out for a 520 00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:34,240 walk in the woods, check out those three Trail of 521 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:36,359 the Lost Trailed in the Cold Vanish. 522 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 2: We covered Trail of the Lost on our episode three 523 00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:43,480 thirty eight here on Mind over Murder, and that ran 524 00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:48,680 January twenty fifth, twenty twenty four. That surprised me when 525 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,519 I looked that up today, because it felt like it 526 00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:53,599 wasn't that long ago. If you'd asked me, I would 527 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,359 have said, oh, last summer maybe, but it was actually 528 00:30:56,559 --> 00:30:57,680 almost a year ago. 529 00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:02,359 Speaker 3: This it kind of messes with your mind how long 530 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,160 ago we actually do these things. But again, as we've 531 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,480 already established for listeners, we do new episodes literally every week. 532 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,160 That's a lot of people that we interview over the 533 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,920 course of the year, and a lot of books to 534 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,359 read and a lot of series to watch. So it 535 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,000 all gets distorted in my mind, when did we actually 536 00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:26,160 cover this? Another book that I found particularly moving this year, 537 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:29,039 and it's a case that probably most everyone of a 538 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:32,440 certain age has heard of, is The Polyclass Kidnapping. The 539 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:35,680 book In Light of All Darkness Inside the Polyclass Kidnapping 540 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,160 and the Search for America's Child by Kim Cross is, 541 00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,079 for my money, the hands down best true crime book 542 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:44,880 I read all year long, there is no question in 543 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,519 my mind, and Kim has received enormous accolades or In 544 00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:52,559 Light of All Darkness she was an Edgar Award finalist. 545 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,079 She's a very big deal. She received the Truman Capodia Award. 546 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,079 She deserves every single accolade that she has received for 547 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,240 this book because it is profoundly, deeply moving, as in, 548 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,599 I cried when I was reading it, and I don't 549 00:32:09,599 --> 00:32:14,279 cry reading drue crime. I'm a hardened, seasoned professional at 550 00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:17,000 this point. I don't cry reading true crime. And I 551 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,759 cried my way through this book. 552 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,599 Speaker 2: I always thought of you as having a marshmallow center, 553 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:23,759 but maybe it's me. 554 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 3: I probably have that too, But it's actually been a 555 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,440 while since the book has made me cry, and this 556 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:36,119 one did it quite solidly and profoundly. She really digs 557 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,039 into all the aspects of the poly Class case start 558 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:42,519 to finish, the abduction and the murder, the reaction of 559 00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:45,920 the Class family both to the crime and then covering 560 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,920 their advocacy in the years afterward. It talks about the 561 00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:53,440 toll that the investigation took on all the members of 562 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,359 the law enforcement community. It talks about the impact it 563 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,799 had on the local community in Petaluma. You really get 564 00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:05,640 a sense that this was a crime that shaped a 565 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:12,160 whole entire community and left them with an indelible sense 566 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,920 that the world was never going to be the same again. 567 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,759 Speaker 2: Kim has a wonderful way of getting inside the story, 568 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,440 and she also had a level of access that most 569 00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:27,200 journalists would never have because her father was the case 570 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,799 agent for the FBI in the Polyclass kidnapping, and that 571 00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:37,319 offered a lot of inside information, but also some really 572 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:44,240 beautifully poignant and sensitive insight into what happened, what the 573 00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:48,240 class family, the investigators, and everyone involved in the case. 574 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 3: I think it's hard to understand sometimes how profoundly a 575 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:54,960 case can affect the members of law enforcement that are 576 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,920 working on it, especially when it's a child abduction and 577 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,640 a child murder, and Kim does a really wonderful job 578 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,599 articulating that for the readers. I love this book. It 579 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,480 is beautifully written, it's beautifully articulated, and I would wholeheartedly 580 00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:16,320 recommend this to anyone who either is interested in the 581 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,800 case or who remembers it and lived through it. Bill. 582 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,519 Were you in California by the time this kidnapping had happened, 583 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:25,239 or were you still in New York. 584 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 2: I was still on the East Coast at that point. 585 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,239 I remember reading about it quite a bit. We covered 586 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,760 in light of all darkness on our mind of a 587 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,679 Murder episode number three oh seven, which actually ran October ninth, 588 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,000 twenty twenty three. 589 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,199 Speaker 3: This next book is something that I was very interested 590 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,360 in reading, but I wasn't sure how precisely I was 591 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,599 going to deal with the subject matter. The book in 592 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,599 question is by an author who we try raise my 593 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,320 will never be able to get on this podcast. We 594 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,360 are quite excellent in gaining access to true crime authors, 595 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,960 but I do not believe we will be getting this 596 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,119 person on our podcast ever. The book is Knife Meditations 597 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,880 after an attempted murder by Solomon Rushd For anyone who 598 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,920 does not remember. In August of twenty twenty two, at 599 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,360 the Chautauqua Institution in New York, author Salmon Rushdi was 600 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,280 on stage giving a presentation when a lone knife wielding 601 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:38,760 attacker rushed the stage and stabbed him multiple times, gravely 602 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,760 wounding him in the process. He survived the attack after 603 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,280 fifteen stab wounds to the abdomen, the chest, the neck, 604 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,719 the thigh, and the face, and in the aftermath of it, 605 00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:59,320 mister Rushdy did lose the use of one eye that 606 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,119 he was sta and one hand. I remember being absolutely 607 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:07,199 shocked by this. Do you remember when this happened Bill, I. 608 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 2: Do Rushti had been so careful after the Satanic verses, 609 00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:16,320 and he had received so many death threats and had 610 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,320 really stopped appearing in public. And I remember being pleased 611 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,920 when I read that he was going to be speaking 612 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,559 again in a public way. This just seems so tragic 613 00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:31,800 that after being so careful and really living a non 614 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,960 public life for a number of years, no sooner is 615 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,119 he back out braving the world again, that he's attacked 616 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:42,159 in this way. I remember being so struck by how 617 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,119 sad this was. 618 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 3: Two years later, in twenty twenty four, he released this 619 00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:52,239 book Knife Meditations After an Attempted Murder, and it is 620 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,480 a really searing memoir about what happens to your life 621 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:04,559 after you have been deep and gravely traumatized in this way. 622 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,039 He pulls no punches in describing what happened to him. 623 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,360 It is very graphic and it is upsetting, but puts 624 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,079 it all in context. He talks about his life after 625 00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:19,320 the attack. He talks about his healing process, and he 626 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,320 reiterates for the reader again and again it is a 627 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,800 process that he is still going through to this day. 628 00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:31,400 He acknowledges the attacker, but acknowledges that the attack and 629 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,679 the attacker himself are things that he is actively trying 630 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:36,920 to put into context in his life, and he is 631 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,559 not allowing them to frighten him or control the narrative 632 00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:45,280 of his life, which I think is a wonderful way 633 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,719 to approach it. It is very emotionally difficult to read. 634 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,880 There were tears also when I was reading this one. 635 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,039 Maybe I've just been a teary mood when I read 636 00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:58,519 these things, but boy did it speak to me as 637 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:03,719 someone who also tries to live day to day through 638 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:09,480 complex trauma as well. He reminds his readers that there 639 00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:13,000 is triumph in the face of adversity, even immense adversity, 640 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,519 like an author losing the use of a hand, for 641 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:22,239 example when typing is your life's work, and losing your 642 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,119 eye when you're used to seeing the world through two 643 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:28,079 good ones. I really love the fact that sort of 644 00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:31,760 at the end of it, the whole entire underpinning for 645 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,119 this is that the most difficult task after trauma is 646 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,920 learning to forgive. He says that it is possible to 647 00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:44,519 learn it, but it takes a little bit to get there. 648 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: Very understandable now, Knife mediations after an Attempted Murder is 649 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,920 not a book we have covered on Mind Over Murder, 650 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,039 but we might someday. I think we'll let Kristen make 651 00:38:57,079 --> 00:38:57,599 that call. 652 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 3: I would say that although this is something that I 653 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,960 highly recommend, it could be quite triggering for people who 654 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,639 have been victims of trauma, especially anyone who has ever 655 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:16,719 undergone stabbing or a physical attack of that variety. So 656 00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:19,559 if that is something that has happened to you or 657 00:39:19,599 --> 00:39:22,360 to someone that would love, maybe you want to sit 658 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,960 this one out. But it really is quite moving and 659 00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:27,840 very well done. And if I thought there was any 660 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,000 hope of getting Solomon Rushti to come on the podcast 661 00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:33,679 and talk to us, I would reach out to his agent. 662 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,679 I don't think there's much hope of that, though. 663 00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:39,679 Speaker 2: All I can say is, mister Rushdie, the invitation stands. 664 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,639 We'd love to have you on Mind over Murder. 665 00:39:42,119 --> 00:39:44,599 Speaker 3: You mentioned one in the new John Grisham book. I 666 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:46,400 do want to put it on the record that we 667 00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,800 have asked mister Grisham's agent if we could get him 668 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,639 to come on the podcast. So far we have received 669 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,159 a form letter that says mister Grisham receives so many 670 00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:01,719 requests we cannot possibly answer at this time it was basically, 671 00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:04,920 this will be answered in the order it was received. 672 00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:08,320 And I assume there are many other people ahead of 673 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,440 us in line. For John Grisham. 674 00:40:11,159 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 2: We do have some friends in commons, so hope Springs Eternal. 675 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,599 We actually have kind of a running list, which we're 676 00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:21,360 not going to go through now, of people that we'd 677 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,360 very much like to have on Mind Over Murder as 678 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,639 future guests. John Grisham is definitely on that. 679 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:31,559 Speaker 3: Short list, oh for sure. And we are going to 680 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:36,280 end actually with a book that is also a documentary series, 681 00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:40,400 and we are going to be speaking to the people 682 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,519 who are responsible for both the book and the series 683 00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:47,800 in an upcoming episode. So the book is called mcmillions, 684 00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:51,440 The Absolutely True Story of how an unlikely pair of 685 00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:55,920 FBI agents brought down the most supersized fraud in fast 686 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,800 food history, by James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte. Boy, 687 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:01,679 that's a long title. 688 00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 2: It is. It's a terrific book. And I just watched 689 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:12,960 a sixth part Netflix true crime documentary which James and 690 00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:19,039 Brian wrote and directed, which is fantastic, and I wasn't 691 00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:22,079 sure that it would hold up for six episodes because 692 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:25,079 a lot of true crime stuff, including the Lover's Lane 693 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,679 murders on the Colonial Parkway. Murders are typically three or 694 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,840 four episodes to tell a story. This actually is a 695 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:39,280 six part series and it is so entertaining. They managed 696 00:41:39,519 --> 00:41:46,079 to incorporate some elements of humor in the television series 697 00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:50,079 and the book that kind of lift the tone in spots. 698 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,880 It's a really fantastic read and it's a lot of fun. 699 00:41:55,039 --> 00:42:00,000 So if you're looking for a terrific Netflix doc or 700 00:42:00,119 --> 00:42:04,159 a great book to put on your Christmas list, mcmillions 701 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,440 is definitely recommended, and we're really looking forward talking to 702 00:42:07,559 --> 00:42:09,760 James and Brian in the very near future. 703 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 3: It is wonderful. It is. I found it to be 704 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,760 imminently readable. It's very funny, and I actually use the 705 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,800 phrase rollicking to describe it because it really does move 706 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,480 ahead at a galloping pace. It's truly funny, and I 707 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,280 would say if you're like Bill and you've watched the documentary, 708 00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:32,920 you one hundred percent want to read the book. The 709 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,519 documentary came out first, it came out in twenty twenty, 710 00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:37,719 and the book only came out a few months ago. 711 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,719 There is a bit of lag time there, so if 712 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,960 you watch the documentary. Do you get the book? And 713 00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:44,760 if you're going to get the book, please do you 714 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,119 watch the documentary. We are so looking forward to talking 715 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,039 to James and Brian coming up here fairly soon. I 716 00:42:52,039 --> 00:42:53,880 think we're going to have a heck of a time 717 00:42:54,519 --> 00:42:56,039 really exploring this case. 718 00:42:56,599 --> 00:42:59,079 Speaker 2: I've read about some of the other work that they've 719 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:03,159 done in documentary films and TV series, and there's a 720 00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:05,360 whole bunch of other stuff they've done that I can't 721 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,239 wait to jump into because I just think the two 722 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,599 of them are I'm willing to bet this is going 723 00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:13,920 to be a really fun interview with the two of them. 724 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much looking forward to it. That is going 725 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,199 to do it for our True Crime holiday gift guide 726 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,199 for this year, So we encourage you to take a 727 00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:28,480 look at these books, look for podcast merch for us 728 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:32,360 and all of your other favorite podcasts. Please do check 729 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:38,320 out the Glittered Squirrel for interesting, customizable, snazzy and snarky glassware. 730 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,079 And please make sure that you are shopping and supporting 731 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,519 local small businesses because Amazon doesn't need any more of 732 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:49,320 your money, although I do tend to shop there maybe 733 00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,480 a little more than I should. Any funnel words of 734 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:57,960 wisdom or holiday inspiration, mister Thomas before we sign. 735 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 2: Off, no, just happy holidays, Mark Christmas to everyone. We 736 00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:06,199 hope that twenty twenty five is a fantastic year. We 737 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,599 look forward to many future conversations with all of you. 738 00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 3: From the mind Over Murder family to you, successful shopping, 739 00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:17,559 happy holidays, and have a fabulous new year. We will 740 00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:21,159 look forward to talking to you soon. Thank you so 741 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,360 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 742 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 743 00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:38,960 Another Dog Productions. 744 00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 745 00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:45,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 746 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 747 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,760 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 748 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:56,719 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. 749 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 750 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:01,400 Murders on Facebook. 751 00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:04,119 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 752 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:05,840 Bill Thomas five six. 753 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.