WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:07.080 Drivers know what trouble sounds like. No, no, okay forward, 2 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.240 Oh no, no, please. 3 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:14.560 No, that's why they get covered from Ireland's soundest car 4 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:16.920 insurance provider, Supervalue Insurance. 5 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:19.519 Thanks for calling us, Bin, and don't pat yourself up 6 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.359 about it. Sure, I'm driving ten years and parallel parking 7 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:24.559 still battlest me get. 8 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:27.120 A code from Supervalue Car Insurance to get ten percent 9 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:28.480 off online. 10 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:31.120 And we'll even throw in forty euroin vouchers. TEASNC supply 11 00:00:31.239 --> 00:00:33.479 vouchers include two twenty euro or forty eurospent. 12 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:35.960 This car insurance is underwritten by AX Insurance, Deck, Super 13 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:38.840 Value Financial Services Stack Trading, and Supervalue Insurance is regulated 14 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:39.920 by the Central Bank of Ireland. 15 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.640 Oh hey, it's that extra stick of deodorant that you 16 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.240 keep in the club compartment, Ali Ward, I'm here for 17 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:50.159 you with a fresh new episode dedicated to apes just 18 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:53.719 like us. So perhaps you have heard the Parmatology episode. 19 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.920 It was released as episode two back when we were 20 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.920 just tell a little Tiny bi Little Babies in twenty seventeen. 21 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.280 But primates it's a big ass category. So when I 22 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.519 got an email from someone that started quote, I'm probably 23 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.159 one of only a few people in the world whose 24 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:13.079 job involves feeling a four hundred pound silverback's breadth on 25 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:16.239 the back of my neck. I was like, game on, woman, 26 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.319 let's do it. So I googled to see if I 27 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.480 was making up the term gorilla ology, and sure enough, 28 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:25.359 it does exist in the literature. So there's a two 29 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:29.159 thousand and seven textbook Gorilla Society, Conflict, Compromise and Cooperation 30 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:32.560 between the Sexes, and it involves the word goerrillology, So 31 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.760 it's on now. The word gorilla itself comes from an 32 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:40.879 account written by a Carthaginian explorer circa five hundred BCE, 33 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.840 who described a group of beings that his African guides 34 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:49.079 called gorilla, and the translation says that the female's outnumbered 35 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.519 males and then goes into this brutal, horrible account of 36 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.480 chasing and trying to capture, being counterattacked by the males, 37 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:01.719 abducting females who tried to and themselves and were eventually 38 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:06.239 killed and skinned. So right there, Historical accounts of gorilla 39 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:09.520 sightings involve a bunch of bad shit going down, as 40 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.319 colonists ps. The word gorilla in Greek then went on 41 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.560 to mean a group of hairy women, which sounds like 42 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.680 my family read Union what anyway? Okay, So thanks for listening, 43 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.080 thank you for subscribing, thanks for supporting on Patreon, for 44 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.479 wearing ologiesmirch dot com items on your naked hairy body, 45 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:30.199 and for no dollars, you can help out and leave 46 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:33.360 a review of which I read all like this one 47 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:35.599 that was left just a couple days ago by the Fang, 48 00:02:35.879 --> 00:02:39.360 who rated and wrote swiping right on Ologies. I love 49 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.479 this show so much that my dating profile response to 50 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:44.280 the prompt I won't shut up about is Ali Ward's 51 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.879 Ologies podcast Love from the Fang, a Patreon supporter, also 52 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.240 Shane Love's podcast. Thank you for being a patron. At 53 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:53.080 patreon dot com slash Ologies, you can submit questions for 54 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.599 the guests. It costs a dollar a month. But yes, 55 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.599 I read every review that you leave, including the ones 56 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:00.520 that you've been sending with life to me and my 57 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.319 family right now as I spend some time with my 58 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:04.960 ailing pop your grandpad and you can listen to the 59 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.439 Secrets at the end of episode starting around the squid 60 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.960 encore in mid April for more on that. But yes, 61 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.159 this week we have a fresh episode for you. It 62 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.680 is being recorded right now in my sister's garage. So 63 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.120 this gorilla ologist is a longtime primatologist. Anne is the 64 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:22.879 chief Scientific Officer and the CEO of the Diane Fosse 65 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.439 Gorilla Fund, and she's dedicated her life to these animals. 66 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.560 She's published over one hundred papers on them. She loves 67 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:32.360 talking about them, so we love her. And she did 68 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.000 her undergrad at Tufts, got her masters in zoology at 69 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.800 the University of Oxford, and did the PhD at the 70 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:42.080 Georgia Institute of Technology in experimental psychology. And she's worked 71 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:44.319 extensively on the ground and in the field with them. 72 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.319 So gather some branches and nest up for ap chit 73 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:54.280 chat about hair harems, chest pounding, poaching, pooping, mating, mycology, 74 00:03:54.719 --> 00:04:00.280 crested skulls, thick fur, field work, primate emotions in a 75 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:07.479 flim flam and the hidden secrets of gorilla wieners with primatologist, conservationist, 76 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:22.160 and gorilla ologist indeed doctor Tara Stewinsky. 77 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:35.319 Tara Stwinsky, she her and doctor of course, yes, doctor Tarasinsky. 78 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:37.360 Where are you based exactly? 79 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.279 Atlanta, Georgia, Atlanta? 80 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:41.680 Okay, yeah, because you were at the Atlanta Zoo for 81 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:42.519 a long time, right. 82 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.560 I was yeahm hm, I always tease. I'm like in 83 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.879 the same exact office I was in in grad school. 84 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.720 I went from a student to CEO, and I'm still 85 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:52.839 in the same office. I just don't have to share 86 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:54.040 it now with three other people. 87 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:59.800 But fun, You've been studying gorillas for decades, right, decades, 88 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:00.319 and I. 89 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:03.240 Have I have it's getting close to thirty decade. 90 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.360 That's thirty, it's getting close to three decades, thirty years, Yeah, 91 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:07.519 is it really? 92 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:07.800 So? 93 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:10.480 Did you have a fascination with them as a kid? 94 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.040 I mean, this is such an question you must get 95 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:16.240 at every single business meeting, every dinner party. But that's 96 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.160 a lot of experience to have with gorillas. 97 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.240 Yeah, I did not actually have a fascination with gorillas 98 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.199 as a child. I had a fascination with animals, and 99 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.199 for the longest time was planning to be a veterinarian, 100 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:32.519 and then had the opportunity to go to Africa and 101 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:36.040 study animal behavior and really that sort of changed the 102 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:39.199 trajectory of my career and came back and decided to 103 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:41.480 do a PhD instead of go to VET school, and 104 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.319 then had the opportunity to start working with gorillas during 105 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.480 my PhD time. So I think I started studying them 106 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.480 in nineteen ninety five, ninety five. 107 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.600 What was the animal that you were studying that got 108 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:54.680 you hooked or what was that field work? 109 00:05:54.759 --> 00:06:01.120 Like I was studying jackals actually, so I was living 110 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.439 in Zimbabwe and we were studying jackals their ecology, so 111 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.000 looking at how far they ranged when they dispersed from 112 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.639 their natal group, where did they go, what were their 113 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:11.720 eating habits? 114 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.560 And we never saw them. They were completely nocturnal. 115 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:16.839 They wore radio collars, so we just had equipment that 116 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:19.360 would let us track the radio collar. 117 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:20.839 It was freezing cold. 118 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.639 I had no idea how Chili sub Saharan African can 119 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:25.759 be in their winter at night time. 120 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:28.839 Okay, I'm at Chihuahwa, and I needed to know how 121 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.920 cold it was. And so I found the paper that 122 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.319 she worked on and the location, which was in Zimbabwe, 123 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:38.920 and the overnight lows in the winter are around forty 124 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.680 five degrees fahrenheit, which technically is warmer than the New 125 00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.160 Jersey where she grew up and Atlanta where she's now based. 126 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.560 But you wait outdoors in the winter for an invisible 127 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:51.720 jackal to show up for months, and you tell me 128 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:52.560 how comfy that is. 129 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:55.240 So I'm cold, it's pitch black. 130 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.519 We never saw the animals, but I just absolutely loved it, 131 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.279 and that just, you know, decided I really wanted to 132 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:04.399 come back and do that, and then was lucky enough 133 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.160 to get to work with species that are actually active 134 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:07.560 during the day where you can see them. 135 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:12.879 Was there a moment where there were advisers saying, stay 136 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:16.639 with jackals and You're like, no, fuck jackals, you know, like, 137 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.079 absolutely no offense jackals. How are you able to make 138 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.360 that leap? And was it something about primates or was 139 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.279 it something about the region that gorillas are endemic to? 140 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:30.879 What was it? Because that's it in terms of like 141 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.079 charismatic fauna, gorillas are it? 142 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.079 They are? I would agree with you there one hundred percent. 143 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:38.680 I was just very lucky to get into a PhD 144 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.800 program where the whereas in a lot of places, you know, 145 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.759 if you're in a program, you might work with fish 146 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:48.839 or mice or things that can live conveniently in a lab. 147 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.319 We had the zoo in Atlanta as our lab, so 148 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:55.160 my PhD advisor was also the director of the zoo 149 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.160 in Atlanta, so we got to come out and work 150 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:00.560 with all of the amazing species that lived Atlanta. And 151 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.920 they have a very large gorilla collection, and so I 152 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:06.240 just came in. I did have some previous experience with 153 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:09.160 primates and came in and starting studying the gorillas they are. 154 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.839 I actually thought I might do my PhD on elephants. 155 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.639 I was really fascinated and I love elephants. I also 156 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:17.519 looked at a PhD program with lions. I ended up 157 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:21.480 studying a small South American primate for my PhD. So 158 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.279 I didn't even do my PhD on gorillas. I did 159 00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:25.560 it on an animal called the golden lion Tameran that 160 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:29.120 is native to Brazil. But all the while was studying 161 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.360 the gorillas here in the zoo and then started working 162 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:32.279 with them in the wild. 163 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.799 And that's just you become my career path. 164 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.559 In terms of what you do, how much of this 165 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:42.360 study is in the wild versus captivity, and what are 166 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.519 their populations like in the wild versus captivity right now? 167 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.840 So for the past eight years, I've been completely focused 168 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.320 on wild gorillas. I spent about thirteen years working in 169 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.200 conjunction with Zoe Atlanta. I split my time between Sue 170 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.080 Atlanta and the Dime Fostergerilla Fund, so I did a 171 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.759 little bit of both really Since I took over the 172 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.440 CEO role, I've just been completely focused on protecting wild gorillas. 173 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:07.559 And your question is a really good one. A lot 174 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:09.840 of people don't realize there are four types of gorillas 175 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:11.879 in the wild, and actually only one of them are 176 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.440 found in Zoos, so the other three are only found 177 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.480 in Africa. And of the four types, there's two species 178 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.679 and two subspecies. At the species level, they are all 179 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.159 considered critically endangered, which is the highest level of endangerment, 180 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.519 you know. The next level up is extinction. In the wild, 181 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:29.519 we have Western lowland gorillas. They actually have by far 182 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:32.000 the healthiest population. We think there are probably about three 183 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.399 hundred thousand of them left, so that's a nice robust population. 184 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.519 There's another type in Western Africa called cross river gorillas, 185 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.759 and there are only about three hundred of that subspecies 186 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.559 left on the planet. And then if you skip over 187 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.039 to Central East Africa, which is where the FOSSi Fund works, 188 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:52.440 there are again one species two subspecies there. The mountain gorilla, 189 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:54.519 which is the gorilla that most people know from Dian 190 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.919 Fosse's time, there are about a thousand of them remaining 191 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:00.360 on the planet, and then probably one and that most 192 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:03.440 people haven't heard of, called the growers gorilla. They are 193 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.320 found only in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, and 194 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.399 we estimate there's about sixty five hundred of them left, 195 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:15.360 so very very small populations for the most part across Africa. 196 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.039 Okay, that is a whole lot of gorilla. So let's 197 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.480 recap to get a visual picture here. So all of 198 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.360 these gorillas are from Equatorial Africa, so the band of 199 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.039 the continent right around the middle, and the western gorilla 200 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:32.399 is a species and genus and species is gorilla gorilla. 201 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.480 So the one that you may have seen in the 202 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.600 zoo is the Western Lowland gorilla, which at around four 203 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.320 hundred pounds through the smaller of the four types of gorilla, 204 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.879 and usually they're more brownish, they might have red fur 205 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:48.039 on their face. And the number of Western Lowland gorillas 206 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:52.159 left is about the population of Lincoln, Nebraska. Now, north 207 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.559 of their range is a little pocket and in that 208 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.879 lives another subspecies, the cross River type, and there are 209 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.879 fewer of those than would fill a large college lecture 210 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:03.919 haul like three hundred, which would be a party of 211 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.720 gorilla gorillas. Gotta say, now the other species we move 212 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:12.240 east on the continent, still Equatorial Africa to the gorilla 213 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:15.639 Buringii species, which are a little larger and they have 214 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.559 darker black fur. And we have another two subspecies of 215 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:23.639 these eastern gorillas. There is the Eastern Lowland gorilla that's 216 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:26.840 also called the growers gorilla. There's about a radio city 217 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:31.799 music hall's worth of Eastern Lowland growers gorillas remaining. And 218 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:34.960 then up in the Volcano Cloud forests on the borders 219 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.559 of Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo and 220 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:42.720 Rwanda are about one thousand thick furred stockier mountain gorillas 221 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.240 that were the subjects of studies by the legendary primatologist 222 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:49.840 and conservationists and gorillas and the myst author Diane Fosse, 223 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.360 and her work with them spanned from the late sixties 224 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:57.879 until her death in nineteen eighty five, which was a homicide. 225 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.480 It was suspected by those who oppose posed her opposition 226 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:07.240 to poaching And is habitat loss responsible for the population 227 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:11.200 decline or is it human activity? Is it poaching what 228 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.720 would be good populations or past populations for gorillas. 229 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:20.159 Yeah, but it really depends on which gorilla subspecies you're 230 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.159 looking at. When we talk about you know, the threats 231 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:25.720 that are there for mountain gorillas, they are not actively poached. 232 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.360 They weren't Dian Fosse's time, you know, fifty years ago, 233 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:28.960 but they are. 234 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.759 Not anymore, which is wonderful. That's good. 235 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.960 There is poaching that happens snares that are set for 236 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:38.519 other animals, and the gorillas can get caught in them, 237 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.919 so indirectly, you know, hunting is a threat, but luckily 238 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.799 they're not directly being hunted. The biggest threat for mountain 239 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:48.240 gorillas is just their small population size and also very 240 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.519 very small habitat. There's only about eight hundred square kilometers 241 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.720 total left for the subspecies, so you've got them literally 242 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.559 living in these islands of forests that are surrounded by 243 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.600 heavy human population density, and so those populations still you know, 244 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:08.360 rely on the forest for food, for water, for you know, firewood, 245 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.720 and so because the population is so small and the 246 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.840 habitat is so small, we don't want any further degradation 247 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.799 or impact on that habitat. When you look to the 248 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.919 other three types of gorillas, unfortunately there it really is 249 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.200 is poaching that is primarily responsible for their decline. So 250 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.200 poaching for food, people eat them. There is habitat instruction. 251 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.039 Certainly that's happening, but luckily there is still unlike for 252 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.360 mountain gorillas, there still is a lot of beautiful rainforest 253 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:38.399 left in the Congo basin, but it is direct poaching 254 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:41.919 and disease. You know, gorillas are can be highly affected 255 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.799 by ebola, just like people. And so in some parts 256 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.200 of Western Africa, populations have been you know, experienced ninety 257 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:51.279 five percent to climb because ebolas come into the population 258 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:52.879 and killed a lot of the gorillas. 259 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:57.000 And what is it like to go and study them? 260 00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:58.960 What does that field work look like? Are you doing 261 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:04.519 population counts, are you doing behavioral observations? 262 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.039 It really again, it kind of varies depending on where 263 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.159 you are. So in Rwanda where we work, you know, 264 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.960 Dian Fosse started that work fifty five years ago now, 265 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.080 in nineteen sixty seven, and those animals became habituated to 266 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.480 human presence, which basically means that they just became accustomed 267 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.600 to having people around them. And so there we get 268 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.639 very close to the animals, you know, we're within thirty 269 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.799 feet of them, and we collect data on everything you 270 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:30.759 name it, we want to study it. So we do 271 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.120 a lot of behavioral work and that dates back to 272 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:36.600 Dian Foss's time. We do demographic work, which is basically 273 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:40.720 understanding the structure of the population, so birth deaths, you 274 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:42.759 know what gorillas live in, what group, and how they 275 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:45.480 move around. We study their ranging habits, We study what 276 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.320 they eat. We do a lot of physiology work, so 277 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.720 we collect a lot of biological samples, such like gorilla poop. 278 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.039 We can spend hours talking about poop, but that gives 279 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:01.799 us insights into you know, their hormone, their genetics, their health, 280 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:03.039 their parasite loads. 281 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.879 So you name it, we study it. 282 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:08.799 I fe're like I can listen to a whole episode 283 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.320 on studying the feces of animals. I'm just going to 284 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.399 gently direct you toward the scatology episode with the number 285 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.519 one fan of number two doctor Rachel Santemyer. We'll link 286 00:15:17.559 --> 00:15:20.519 that in the show notes. But some gorillas are totally 287 00:15:20.600 --> 00:15:24.600 used to having other apes around them gawking, carrying clipboards 288 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.039 and cameras. But with the fieldwork in the eastern Congo 289 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.679 Basin forest, the strategy with these critically endangered Eastern Lowland 290 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.799 aka Grower's gorilla is different. It's a little more low key. 291 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.840 Where we work in Congo the gorillas there have not 292 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.919 been habituated to people, and that's for their own safety 293 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.480 because they are hunted. We don't want them to lose 294 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.240 their fear of people. So there we follow them one 295 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.759 day behind, so we can still get a lot of data. 296 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.559 We can still see food remains to get an idea 297 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:56.440 of what they're eating. We can still look at their 298 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:58.879 ranging patterns, so how much space do they need? The 299 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.879 biggest thing we're missing is those detailed behavioral observations on 300 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.919 what they're doing on a day to day basis, because 301 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:06.279 we're not close enough to see them. 302 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.720 What are they doing on a day to day basis, 303 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.200 Like what is a gorilla's life like? And how chill 304 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.639 is it? How many nats? What are they eating? Are 305 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:16.240 they fighting? 306 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:18.799 They love to nap, So like a typical day for 307 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:21.879 a gorilla family, and I'll talk about mountain gorillas is 308 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.639 they wake up. Each family member makes their own nest 309 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.879 every night, so they make nests on the ground. They 310 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:29.919 don't reuse them, so every night they have to build 311 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.080 their own nest. And it probably has a lot to 312 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.799 do with thermal regulation. It's really cold. They live up 313 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.360 at ten eleven thousand feet. It's wet, it's cold, so 314 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.519 they build this nest. They go to bed when the 315 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.080 sun goes down. They wake up when the sun comes up. 316 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:45.879 They'll get up, they'll move a little bit. They'll forage 317 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.480 for a while, and then they will rest. They have, 318 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.720 you know, middle of the morning they like to take 319 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.639 a rest. The adults will sleep, the kids will play. 320 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:56.279 They'll get up, they'll forage again. They might walk a 321 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.240 half a kilometer through the course of a day, just 322 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.200 this intermitt and eating and feeding, and then it's the 323 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.240 end of the day and they make their nets again. 324 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:05.599 This schedule can vary. 325 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:09.920 For example, if they run into another gorilla family, so 326 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.119 the interactions that they have with these other families vary 327 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.799 depending on whether they knew that family or not. So 328 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.240 if it's a family that they are unfamiliar with, then 329 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.720 a lot of times those interactions can be quite aggressive. 330 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.960 It's an opportunity for males to attract females to join them, 331 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.880 and for females to make decisions about their you know, 332 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.160 reproductive future. If they want to leave the group they're 333 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:32.400 in and join a new male. 334 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:34.160 We could run away together. 335 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:36.960 If it's a family that they maybe had lived with before. 336 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.319 Sometimes families will split. Then it can be quite peaceful, 337 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.799 and you know, the adults all kind of hang out 338 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.640 near each other and the kids will play. So it 339 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.720 really depends that, you know, they have incredibly long memories 340 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.039 like we do. They form lifelong relationships like we do, 341 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.160 and that really impacts how they move through space and 342 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.319 how they interact with other gorillas that live in the habitat. 343 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:01.000 How big are these families great quest, and it really 344 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.079 can vary. So an average gorilla family is usually ten individuals, 345 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.880 but we have had groups of up to sixty five animals, 346 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:13.400 which is phenomenal. The other really funny thing about mountain gorillas, 347 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:17.720 you know, again they're all very unique the different subspecies, 348 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.759 but mount gorillas are particularly special of the four types 349 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.400 of gorillas. They live in the most extreme environment, these 350 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:27.640 really high elevation forests where there's not a lot of fruit. 351 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.599 They basically kind of live in the equivalent of a 352 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:34.000 salad bowl. And the reason that that's important is that 353 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.880 the kind of food that you eat and its availability 354 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.400 affects the kind of group that you live in. And 355 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.359 so because mountain gorillas aren't dependent on fruit, which is 356 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.880 very seasonally available, and you know, you might have one 357 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.359 fruiting tree, and then you have to travel a kilometer 358 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.200 to get to the next fruiting tree. That really constrains 359 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.680 how big your group can be. So when we look 360 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.680 at the other types of gorillas that rely a lot 361 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.640 on fruit, their groups really sort of average around ten individuals. 362 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.599 Moult gorillas because they live in a salable and foods 363 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:05.200 kind of everywhere, it gives them a lot more flexibility. 364 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:07.559 So number one, their groups can be a lot bigger. 365 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.720 As I said, we've had one that was sixty five. 366 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.200 Number two, and this is what becomes really interesting for 367 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:17.119 us as scientists is their group's structure can be quite 368 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.359 a bit different in that multiple males can live in 369 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.759 the same group with females. For the other three subspecies, 370 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:26.039 you really have a group structure that's one male the 371 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.559 silver back, that's the adult male. He leads the group, 372 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.200 a couple of females and their kids. In mountain gorillas, 373 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.000 we've had groups that have had you know, up to 374 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.440 eight to ten adult males living in the group, which 375 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:42.200 just you know, introduces all sorts of interesting behavioral elements 376 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.279 around you know, female choice and male competition. 377 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.599 I understand that that affects the size of their junk. 378 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.079 Also correct, if there's more competition, don't you tend to 379 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.200 have perhaps, let's just say, a larger nut sac But 380 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.759 I understand that if you don't have as much competition, 381 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:03.319 you have smaller air go having giant balls is not 382 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.160 a compliment as much as we think this. 383 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.319 Well, and that's the really when you look at gorillas, 384 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.960 and when you look at their junk, you see that 385 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.599 they shouldn't be living in these large, multi male groups. 386 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.000 They are not equipped. 387 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.759 They have very small testicles, very small penis compared to 388 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.799 a chimpanzee, which evolved in this multi male structure where 389 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.640 there's all this competition in the group for access. With gorillas, 390 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.480 once you get your females, normally you shouldn't have any 391 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.440 competition in the group. So they don't have large testicles, 392 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.440 they don't engage in sperm competition. So when we laugh 393 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:40.640 at the Mountain gorillas, we're like, you guys are not chimps, 394 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.160 but you're kind of living in chimp like groups. So 395 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:44.359 how is this all working? 396 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:45.720 Well? 397 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:49.000 Also, what's the math on that? Because one silver back 398 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.400 to let's say a handful of females, where are all 399 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:54.559 the other silver backs and where are they getting all 400 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:55.559 these ladies. 401 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.480