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Speaker 1: Welcome once again to the Oath and the Office. I

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am John Fugel, saying it is a pleasure to have you,

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and I am happier than a garden full of knicks

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fans booing the President to welcome the man who is

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the star of the show, the author of the Oath

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and the Office. People of Earth, please welcome Brown University

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Political Science Professor Corey Bretschneider.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Sir, Hi John, what a pleasure to speak with you.

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And on a week two in which there are going

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to be things again to continue to celebrate because there

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is pushback against this president, there's assertion of congressional power,

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and although we've had a lot of weeks where things

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were looking bleak, this is another one where I'm feeling

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at least more optimistic than I was.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget the first time we ever met, Professor

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over ten years ago at SiriusXM, because that was the

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day you said to me, you're either crooked or you're stupid.

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Let's call it quits. And wow, the coincidence that Donald

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Trump said those exact words in the latest man Baby meltdown.

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Speaker 4: I just have to apologize for that. John. It was

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you know a rough moment. That's okay.

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Speaker 2: Now, listen, you were going through audience, We're very hard,

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and listen.

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Speaker 1: You were going through a lot at the time. You

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had multiple indictments at the time, and you got booed

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by a stadium full of Knicks fans. So I understand you,

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weren't you.

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Speaker 2: And I think you were also just refusing to admit

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that I had a lot of evidence of the election fraud.

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Speaker 1: That that that is correct. I would I would not

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acknowledge your evidence because you hadn't produced any. And it's

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so funny how how history repeats itself.

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Speaker 4: So same thing you got to.

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Speaker 1: Talk about Meet the press obviously, because I think the

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most fascinating thing about the meet the press tantrum we've

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heard so much about it's it's not that it you know,

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I mean, it ended the way you'd expect. He didn't

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end the interview. He rage quit Democracy. Kristen Welker asked

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Trump for evidence that California's election was rich, and he

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said it's cheating because the ballots are getting counted after

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election day and I'm watching this like, yeah, that's how

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counting works. The score changes while you're counting the score.

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You know, like like it was like walking out of

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a restaurant because the waiters still adding up the bill,

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like I like this bill until you counted the appetizers.

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Now it's cricket and Professor, everyone's talking about the tantrum.

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The real story is what the President was tantraping about.

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He wasn't running from Kristin Welker. He was running from

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the question about election legitimacy. And I need to go

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deep on this with you. Before we even get to that,

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you knew the interview is going poorly over Kristen Welker's

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questions for the President about what shall we call it?

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The slush fund, the bribery fund, the reparations for terrorists,

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the anti weaponization fund. Republicans and Democrats were furious over this,

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and they blocked the immigration bill Trump liked. In protest,

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Todd Blanche came forward and defended the fund before the committee, saying, Okay, well,

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we're not going to do it, but we're still going

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to do part of it. Corey, we've talked about this before.

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Constitutionally speaking, what alarms you the most about a government

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compensation fund aimed at people who the president personally believes

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were treated badly by prosecutors for their crimes.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you know, the substance of the matter

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is that Trump is trying to rewrite history and to

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reward those who engaged in insurrection. Without question, that's the

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fundamental problem here, that it really is an attempt to

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create a slush fund that will be used to just

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support his not just his supporters, but those who are

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willing to commit insurrection in order to destroy our democracy.

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Speaker 4: And it's one thing to lie about what happened.

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Speaker 2: It's another thing to give the pardons, but now to

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pay the people is a whole other level. But there

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is a you know, more wonky explanation of what's wrong here,

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which is that he doesn't have the authority to do so.

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That there is no congressional authorization to create a slush

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fund to fund insurrection, certainly, and so you know, the

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complicity of Congress up until now of not saying anything

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has been part of the problem. And so starting to

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see the pushback on behalf of even members of his

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own party, partly because they're.

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Speaker 4: Worried about their own survival.

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Speaker 2: They see that this president is abandoning them in the

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midterms out of care only for his own revenge and

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his own personal desires. But it is a recognition that

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not only that this is wrong, but that not only

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that it's a threat to democracy, but that he doesn't

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have the legal authority to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again Todd blanche announced before the House Appropriation

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Subcommittee that the DOJ would not be moving forward with

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the Weaponization Fund. Oh but they still want to have

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the irs rigged, so Trump and his ghastly children can

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never be investigated for any crimes in perpetuity. I mean,

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it's madness. Now they're saying that the fund is being

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abandoned while they're still defending the concept behind it. Corey,

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what does this say about how executive power is being

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understood inside this administration?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think that for Trump, and this

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has just been true from the beginning, what executive power

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is is a kind of kingly power. So of course

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he has the power, as he often says, to do

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anything that he wants, and that includes the ability to

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fund your secret slush fund, your fund, your insurrectionists.

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Speaker 4: And you know, there couldn't.

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Speaker 2: Be anything further from the truth of how government is

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supposed to operate under law. And you know that's why

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I think the attorney general is the president's personal lawyer

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and sees his job as doing whatever Trump wants. But finally,

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the pushback from Congress, I think, the pushback from the courts,

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the recognition, as we talked about last week, that the

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initial deal that led to the creation of this fund

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with the IRS, that all of this is illegal, has

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led to the Attorney General to start to back off

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and to publicly say, I don't think so now, you know,

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as we're going.

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Speaker 1: To get acting attorney general, guess that's important.

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Speaker 4: Let's not promote him.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think though, when you listen to Trump,

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you see in this interview how much he cares about

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this fund and how emotionally connected he was to it.

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And so you know, that idea that he's being told no,

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the petulant child that he is can't stand it because

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he wants to be able to not just pardon, not

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just praise and reward his supporters, but pay them and

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again pay them for insurrection. So this is, you know,

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attention between somebody who you know, although he's an extreme

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version of a loyalist, the acting attorney general, he knows

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that there's no lawful basis for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And again, they finally believe in reparation scory. Not

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for the descendants of slavery, not for the descendants of

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the indigenous inhabitants of this land, but for terrorists who

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beat up cops for a lie. They get reparations and

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we pay for it. Now, he started to get angry

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when she was questioning him about this proposal, and we're

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going to play some clips of him getting really angry.

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But historically do presidents tend to react strongly when challenged

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about efforts that blur the line between public authority and

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person grievance. I mean, I mean, the mere existence of

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this proposal just normalizes the idea that the government exists

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to reward your friends and punish your enemies.

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Speaker 2: You know, there have been slush funds before, and as

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listeners know, I'm very consumed with Richard Nixon, who I

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wrote a lot about in my book The Presidents and

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the People, And certainly he did have a slush fund.

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He was paying clandestine operators to do his bidding illegally,

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including the most famously, of course, the break in at

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the Brookings Institution. Less famously, but equally important, the role

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of Howard Hunt and breaking into Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office in

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order to get dirt. All that was funded by secret funds.

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Now here's the difference. This is a slush fund of

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that kind on a much larger basis being used to

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fund insurrection. Yeah, and being done in public because there's

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no embarrassment about what's happening.

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Speaker 4: That's what makes this so frightening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. And now we move to the meltdown

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of this because, as you know, Professor, every time Donald

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Trump sees votes being counted after election day, he reacts

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like Dracula sing a sunrise. You know, California has counted

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ballots this way for years. Republicans know it, and election

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officials know it, and political scientists know it, and Donald

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Trump knows it. But he needs his base to think

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that counting votes is suspicious. Give a listen to this

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clip with Kristen Welker and listen to how it goes.

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How they've shifted their narrative now from voter fraud to

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vote counting fraud. Here's the first clip.

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Speaker 2: To me, let's talk.

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Speaker 3: This tremendous evidence is nothing, but the election was rigged.

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It was a dirty election. This is happening again right

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now in happening now in California. Right now, it's looking.

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Look at what's happening. It's in California. It's now, they're

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not there. They're dropping fast because it's a rigged election.

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Let me tell you, it's four days and they aren't

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even close.

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Speaker 1: To That's how they can why.

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Speaker 3: They're doing that, because they're cheating on the election.

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Speaker 4: There's what do you have evidence to support?

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Speaker 3: You have to do his look or and I listen

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to people.

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Speaker 1: I have to do is look, Corry. That's the perfect

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summary to his entire approach. It is no proof, no fact,

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no investigations. It's a guy arguing with like a ceiling fan. Right,

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and that's the tantrum. Again, he threw a fit on television.

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That's not the shocking thing. We've seen the meat goblin

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melt down. But this is exactly what he did before

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twenty twenty. He's teaching his supporters that any result he

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doesn't like is illegitimate. Right, that's what this is.

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Speaker 4: Well, I love that that line. All you need to

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do is look.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me of when he asks for the specific

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number of votes that he needed in Georgia to claim victory.

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You know, it's of course the evidence, the truth doesn't matter.

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It's all motivated by his goal. And it's somebody who's

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just so immune to the truth. You know, the technical

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term is bullshit for not caring at all about what

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the truth is.

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Speaker 4: He just wanted to get the result.

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Speaker 2: And here he is just bullshitting so vigorously in the

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face of a lack of evidence. And she says, where's

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your evidence? So I don't need evidence. You just have

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to manufacture the evidence. That's what he's saying. But you know,

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unaware but real confession of what this presidency is about.

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And of course as he's losing it, things just go downhill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again this is not about California at all.

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He doesn't care about California. He knows how this is

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going to go. They knew that Republicans were going to

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be leading in some California races on election night. But

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then the mail ballots get counted, then the Democrats gained votes.

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It's not because votes are appearing, the votes are being counted.

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And this is a distinction that this man professor has

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spent six years pretending he doesn't understand. Because he is

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preparing his supporters to view the counting itself as evidence

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of cheating. This is no longer about illegal immigrants votevoting

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because they want to go to a polling place and

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get caught. Now the con is not voter fraud, it's

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vote counting fraud. That election should stop the moment Republicans

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are ahead, you know, like we've got to declare the

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Super Bowl over after the first quarter. So here is

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the meltdown. And at the end of this he gets

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up rather unsteadily. It's disturbing watching him get out of

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a chair, Professor, and he throws his mic on the

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ground and steps on it and walks off the set.

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Speaker 3: That they have an election, and five days later they're

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nowhere close to picking.

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Speaker 4: Local officials acknowledge they are slow.

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Speaker 3: They're urging, or they're crooked.

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Speaker 2: They're urging the votes to.

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Speaker 4: Be counted quickly.

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Speaker 2: That's how they bar crooked.

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Speaker 4: Just like your crooked.

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Speaker 3: Your pressure's crooked, and meet the pressure's crooked. To be fair,

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I'm not crooked, but's when you play right into their

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hands zone you're either crooked or you're stupid. You play

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right into their hands with this rep You know that

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these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged.

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Speaker 4: You know that I won an.

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Speaker 3: Election in a landslide and I got presented because you

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have no credibility, But you've.

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Speaker 4: Never presented evidence there was ringed.

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Speaker 2: Let's keep talking about I want to talk about Tom.

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Speaker 3: You have more evidence. There's more evidence than ever presented.

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Let's talk to your elections were like a third world country.

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Your elections are crooked, and you're crooked. You're suppresses crooked,

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and show is ABC and CBS and CNN, the one

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sided crooked network. So let's call it quits because I've

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had anough Thank you, darling, have a good time for

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president on the ground all the way to Wisconsin.

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Speaker 2: I've shot all I know.

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Speaker 3: On and off in the rain, and I've given you.

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Speaker 1: Enough time, and you understand there's nothing he hates more

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than going out in public in the rain, Corey, because

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that melts the hair. Did law school prepare you to

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talk about stuff like this?

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Speaker 4: Professor?

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Speaker 1: Did years of teaching in the Ivy League give you

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the schools to talk about male behavior like this.

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Speaker 2: You know a lot of law school tea, and I

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teach undergrad's law as well, and use the same techniques

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as you come up with the most wild hypotheticals you try,

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they're almost like films if you do them well. And

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outrageous situations and the idea of a president who was

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simultaneously trying to fund insurrectionists and then justifying that insurrection

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with his old theme that the election was rigged, and

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trying to institute a coup by lying about evidence and

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claiming evidence when you know it would just seem too wild.

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It really is jumping the shark that that episode, of course,

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where Arthur Fonzarelli, I think he's in Hawaii, you know,

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jumps over a shark with water skis, and wow, this

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is a different level of jumping the shark than we

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could have ever imagined from Happy Days. It's it's just,

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you know, it's another level, and yet it keeps happening.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, to go back to our.

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Speaker 2: Theme that we've been talking about the payments and the

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slush fund to try to really institutionalize and that's what

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was so threatening about it.

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Speaker 4: I can't say that enough.

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Speaker 2: That it was an attempt to have payment for engaging

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in insurrection and to have a you know, a militia force.

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Essentially that civilian militia force is being paid in order

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to destroy our democracy. That I think is what got

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him going that as she's attacking that and saying what

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this really is and calling it out, and he's getting

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emotional thinking about his supporters who he had to pardon

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and who he abandoned for a period of time. That

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then leads him into the justification for why he needed

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the coup of January sixth, which is that he won

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the election, and that kind of lie then starts spiraling

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into the discussion of California and the evidence of supposed

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fraud there.

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Speaker 4: So you know it's all intertwined in his mind.

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Speaker 2: And when you call it out, when you pierce the

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veil of bullshit with truth, that just freaks him out.

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And there you had him melt down in real time

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and we just heard him.

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Speaker 1: It's a great point, and I want to point out

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to our listeners that was the peak of Donald Trump's week,

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by the way, being a petulant man baby who then

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in the end, and you got to see it because

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the best part. I know we're an audio medium, but

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folks to try to just watch the ending, to watch

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Donald Trump try to stand up from a chair and

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almost grab Kristen Welker to steady himself before waddling off

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the set like the penguin abandoning the Gotham super villains

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meeting deep under Gotham, going.

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Speaker 3: Wow wow, wow, wow wow.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's appalling, But you know, a day later,

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he's getting booed by thousands of people at MSG, and

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it made me realize he's going to spin that too.

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I mean, he knows what a scene he threw, but

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he's not running to make Americans believe him. He's running

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to keep one third of the country angry. He's running

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to keep that one third of the electorate he can

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count on infuriated and on his side, because he's proven

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in the past one third of the country can sometimes

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be all you need. And I thought the same thing

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watching him be booed at the National Anthem. I'm like,

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why would they let him do that? Why would they

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let him into MSG for a bunch of New York

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City NBA fans. Susie Wild should be fine? And then

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I realized they knew he was going to get booed.

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I will bet you anything, Professor, now, the narrative of

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Trump and the minions, it won't be the thousands booed him.

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You know, what they're going to do. It's all going

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to be for division. He's going to spread the narrative

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that urban NBA fans booed our sacred national anthem. That's

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going to be the message that they booed our anthem.

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He is grasping at dog whistles, and once again it

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seems like, well, this is crazy, but there's method in it, right,

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I mean, there is more strategy to some of this

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belligerent behavior than might be a parent, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, and he'll try all the above.

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Speaker 2: I did see him say actually was well received in

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Madison Square Garden. He tried to pretend there was no booing,

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and there are some versions of the video where you

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don't hear him, of course we're talking about at the

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Knicks Championship in Madison Square Garden. There are some versions

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of the video where you can't quite hear the booing

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as loud as it was, and so he tried to

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spin it as that becomes untenable.

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Speaker 4: Well, then he'll just swim.

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Speaker 2: He'll use the narrative that he needs to try to

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look good. I don't want to lose sight too. Just

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going back to the interview of when he has his meltdown,

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The way he tries to recreate calm is through his sexism.

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He calls her darling, the interviewer Ristin Walker, and you know,

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starts in his typical way to just condescend not just

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to this interviewer, but to all women.

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Speaker 4: And wow, it's really is his greatest hits.

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Speaker 2: The support of the insurrection, the lying about the election,

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and then the misogyny, all to.

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Speaker 1: Attack the intelligence of a woman reporter. It's everything. It's Yeah,

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he's at the State Fair doing Freebird. This is this

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is what they've come for.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to say, by the way, I

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get to commute by bike through this midtown circus to

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get to serious XM studios. Last night, the Knicks are

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trying to win the NBA Championship, and Trump somehow found

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a way to make the whole evening about Donald Trump.

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But one other thing I want to ask you about, professor,

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is that the House just passed measures rebuking military involvement

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in Iran, which no but he saw coming. Four Republicans

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joined Democrats two fifteen to two away to vote to

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pass this measure encouraging the end of the war in Iran,

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and separately approved Ukraine assistance despite Trump's raging opposition. Corey,

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it's war powers time. Finally, it seems like there's almost

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a reclaiming of the power of Congress over foreign policy.

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We've discussed it so many times. The Constitution gives Congress

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alone the power to declare war, and over decades presidents

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of both parties have gotten all of this unilateral military

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authority for themselves. How far has the balance shifted? What

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would James Madison say about concentrating war making authority in

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one guy?

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Speaker 4: You know, I love that question.

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Speaker 2: I love when we can frame what's happening in terms

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of the founders of this country, who really laid out

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so clearly in our Constitution a division of the war

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power that had been united in England and the British

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King had the power both to initiate war or British

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Queen the monarch to initiate war and to carry it out.

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And the genius in part of our Constitution you can

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see it right there in Article one, which says it's

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Congress the lawmaking body that has the power to initiate

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or declare war, and on the other hand, Article two,

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the President of the United States the power of commander

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in chief. Now what's happened to that in recent months

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is just a total disregard, not even a recognition of this,

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just an ignoring of it, and the particular initiation of

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war with Iran. And this was not a defensive war,

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which is an exception to that idea that Congress declares war.

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It was a clearly initiated war.

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Speaker 4: And you know, there's a lot that has to happen,

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and it's.

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Speaker 2: Related, I think to the pushback that we saw in

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the Weaponization Fund. But the immediate politics before I get

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to the founders, is that Republicans are seeing this guy

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does not care about them. He is really doing whatever

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it takes to advance himself. He cares about revenge, he

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doesn't care certainly about the constant. And there's a ripple

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effect as they push back on the Weaponization Fund, Suddenly

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there are votes too to say, hey, we have a

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constitution in this country and to recognize, to go back

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to your point about Madison that you know it was

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just to show you how far we've trade and the founding.

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There was a debate in Washington's cabinet about whether or

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not Washington, George Washington, the first president, could even discuss

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his foreign policy goals and even mention, you know, his

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views about possible war with foreign nations or even what

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he thought America's foreign.

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Speaker 4: Policy should be.

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Speaker 2: That's how focused on Congress the Framers were.

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Speaker 4: And now we're in a moment where where the explicit.

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Speaker 2: Power to initiate war is just taken away from Congress. Well,

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now this week we get pushed back in two areas.

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Speaker 4: One the votes.

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Speaker 2: Also there's emotions both in the Senate and also in

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the House to reclaim the war power and to say no,

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you can't continue, you can't initiate war without US Congress

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to Claire's war, it's in some way symbolic, but it

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is a recognition that it is Congress that has this power,

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and it's a kind of threat to him to not

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continue to engage in war without authorization in Iran.

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Speaker 4: And then one other thing that you mentioned is.

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Speaker 2: The real power, of course, is tied to the related

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power to allocate funds, and so saying you better, you know,

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we are funding the Ukrainians regardless of what you think.

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That's another really important, non symbolic assertion of Congressional power.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a symbolic vote, but symbols can matter

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in constitutional governments, So I mean symbolic votes can evolve

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into meaningful institutional resistance. And you know, I think it

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seems like we've reached a point where so many Americans

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just assume foreign policy belongs exclusively to the president because

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we haven't legally declared war since the year nineteen forty one.

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And this is both presidents. We grew up watching Bill

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Clinton bomb other countries when he felt like it too.

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I think a lot of Americans don't realize how unusual

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it is for longres to publicly challenge a US president

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on military matters. Professor, how how historically significant was this moment?

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He was furious at these four Republicans, but I thought

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they were acting like, what's that word they used? Conservatives?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's conservatives, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is supposedly concerned with the meaning of

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being a conservative in this country since the Reagan administration

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at least has been that you care about the Constitution's text. Well,

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what clear example of congressional power than the war power,

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which is right there in clean words, given to declare

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war is given to Congress, And yet nobody's been talking

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about it. And I want to come back to your

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point that symbols matter, because they absolutely do in this case.

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Think about the absence of Congress having done what it

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just did, speaking up against the usurpation of its war power.

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Speaker 4: You know what that means is complicity.

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Speaker 2: When you say nothing, it's essentially just agreeing to the

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president's ability to initiate war. So it's the pulling back

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on the failure to speak, the pulling back on the

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complicity that we've had up until now in the acquiescence

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and really the and let's call it what it is,

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the illegal war by the president. It's not, by the way, too,

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that you know somehow it's legal because Congress didn't say anything.

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What was happening was Congress has to initiate the war

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without that, you know, especially after the thirty or sixty

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day period that the War Powers Act passed to clarify

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the war making powers gives a president to engage in

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in action short of war, but after that sixty days

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and even before that, if it's a war, not just

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an action military action, it's illegal. And so Congress being quiet,

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isn't agreeing to it. It doesn't have that ability. It's

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complicit in the violation of the law. And now finally

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Congress is saying, hey, there's a law here, there's a constitution,

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and that is you know, we've been calling it symbolic,

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but it's obviously more than that. It's the assertion of

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the fundamental framework of our government.

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Speaker 1: Well, this Ukraine vote was quite a bit more substantive.

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This was very again Trump's wishes now again friends. For

473
00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:05,359
those who don't remember, the United States once was part

474
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,319
of a treaty to get Ukraine to give up their

475
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,799
nukes and give them to Russia, because Ukraine once had

476
00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:14,599
the largest amount of nuclear stockpile of any European nation.

477
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:17,599
And of course, when the curtain came down, we signed

478
00:24:17,599 --> 00:24:20,920
the Budapest Memorandum, where the US, the UK and Russia

479
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,279
all signed a deal saying that we will always protect

480
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,640
Ukraine if they're ever invaded in exchange for them giving

481
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,599
up their nukes. Of course Russia did. And if there's

482
00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:32,079
one thing we know about right wing Christian nationalists, that

483
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,319
the Indians taught us, they love breaking their own treaties.

484
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,680
So Trump is furious that we're continuing to honor our

485
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:43,319
agreement to fund our ally. Eighteen Republicans voted to pass this.

486
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,680
It was a two twenty six one to ninety five vote.

487
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,039
It gives eight billion in loans to Ukraine and NATO

488
00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:52,000
military programs, a billion dollars to other funds for Ukraine.

489
00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:55,759
Does the power of the purse still remain Congress's strongest

490
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:56,799
constitutional weapon?

491
00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 2: You know, I think they're tied together, and I think

492
00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:02,039
that's the reason I was very eager to talk about

493
00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:06,440
these two stories as one story, that the reassertion of

494
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,920
the war power and the real use of the allocation

495
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:13,119
power of Congress, because you know, the Framer is designed

496
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,319
not just you know, individual powers, but a system as

497
00:25:16,319 --> 00:25:18,720
a whole that was meant to work together and how

498
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,359
to make it clear that Congress really had control over war.

499
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,400
It wasn't just meant to be symbolic. They have the

500
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:29,240
requirement of funding any war, and this is a kind

501
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:32,839
of implicit recognition that you know, look, if we can

502
00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:36,400
dictate that this money has to be spent and implied

503
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,400
in that is the threat that if you ignore us

504
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,279
on the war powers, if you continue to go to

505
00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:43,079
war without our permission, we can withdraw the funds.

506
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 4: And that's by design.

507
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 2: That really is the James Madison technique that's there from

508
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,039
the beginning. So I think these two stories, you know,

509
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,680
it's not a coincidence that they're happening together, and it's

510
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,680
really important that we talk about them together because what

511
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,960
we're doing is, you know.

512
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 4: These powers are rusty.

513
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,079
Speaker 2: We've been letting them lay vacant and they don't get used. Well,

514
00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:05,240
now they're being used. The power to initiate a war

515
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,279
or to refuse to initiate it, and the power to

516
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,759
fund or not fund certain you know, foreign policy, including wars,

517
00:26:12,759 --> 00:26:15,759
if Congress makes that decision. Now, you know, we're so

518
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,519
used to just deferring to a president, and in the

519
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:22,200
reassertion of congressional power, we're starting to get the law back.

520
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,119
I didn't want to say one other thing, John, because

521
00:26:24,279 --> 00:26:26,920
this is a less obvious point. But you know, when

522
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,119
you're mentioning the idea that Trump is dishonoring the prior

523
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,519
agreement to fund Ukraine.

524
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 4: For Trump, you know, he is the state, he is

525
00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:36,319
the government, and.

526
00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:39,759
Speaker 2: The idea that the nation would have prior agreements, I

527
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:43,079
actually think that's beyond his comprehension. And yet the idea

528
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,519
that we are one nation led under the law. It

529
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,599
requires the idea that no, it doesn't matter who's occupying

530
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,039
the office at the particular moment. What the bindingness of

531
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:57,400
agreements transfers through administrations And when you think that you're

532
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,680
the law, when you're the dictator, it's just impossible to

533
00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:04,759
understand that. And it's another deep failing well.

534
00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: And also, these guys want to invade Cuba, Corey, we

535
00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:11,680
know it. They're starving the people of Cuba, like the

536
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,480
media blockout on the human rights catastrophe that's happening in

537
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:19,680
Cuba because they think it should be our colony and

538
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:22,440
Marco Rubio should be viceroy. This is all still going on.

539
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:24,839
So like, this is what I think when I see

540
00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:27,839
this vote, because tell me if I'm wrong here. If

541
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,880
Congress keeps on reclaiming authority over military decisions, this could

542
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,720
be one of the most significant constitutional developments of this

543
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:39,319
whole bloody period. I mean, what would genuine congressional oversight

544
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,519
of warpowers actually look like. I can't see this Congress

545
00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:45,880
ever being that strong against this man.

546
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,799
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, just to before we get into

547
00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:51,559
the politics of it, there is no legal authority of

548
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:53,920
the President of the United States to go in.

549
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,319
Speaker 4: And to seize Cuba. And in the same way.

550
00:27:57,039 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: There wasn't a legal authority to go in and seize

551
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,400
the president of Venezuela. Now, you know, if Congress voted

552
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,200
to do so, we could talk about the justice or injustice,

553
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,079
the pragmatism or lack thereof of doing it, but at

554
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,759
least that would give it a legal authority. There is

555
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:16,240
none here. And yet this president, you know, has that aim.

556
00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:18,680
Whether or not he's going to view these two votes

557
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,240
that we're talking about as a possible pushback on his

558
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:22,839
own power, I'm not sure.

559
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,079
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that it will.

560
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,519
Speaker 2: I mean, Rubio is so despite having been a senator

561
00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:29,839
himself so so intent on it. They might again disregard it,

562
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,480
and I would hope that the Congress would start to

563
00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:33,640
see its obligation.

564
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 4: This isn't new.

565
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: By the way, I talked about Nixon, and you know,

566
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,480
I'll just mention some Nixon parallels.

567
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:40,319
Speaker 4: I can't get it right.

568
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: Nixon, Kissinger and Nixon, of course, were involved in the

569
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,279
in the destruction of a democratic government in Chile. I

570
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:50,960
don't know that political sounds who study Latin America disagree

571
00:28:51,519 --> 00:28:54,599
about the extent to which this was a US coup

572
00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:57,680
or whether or not it was, you know, some combination.

573
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,839
But we know for a fact that Nix and Kissinger

574
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,240
war involved, and by Kissinger's own acknowledgement, in destroying a

575
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:07,279
democratic government.

576
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:08,759
Speaker 4: So there's a long history of that.

577
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,079
Speaker 2: But the whole point of the War Powers Act was

578
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,519
not just in regard to Chile and the coup of Pinochet,

579
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:18,640
but also of course in Vietnam and the illegal actions

580
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,079
beyond Vietnam and Cambodian laos.

581
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,599
Speaker 4: The Congress said no more.

582
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,559
Speaker 2: That was it happened at the end of Nixon's administration

583
00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:27,720
over his veto and what did they do.

584
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:29,319
Speaker 4: They passed the War Powers Act.

585
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:33,359
Speaker 2: That was meant to be a reassertion of congressional power. Now,

586
00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:36,720
for a variety of reasons, that's just been pushed to

587
00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:37,279
the side.

588
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: But what we need now.

589
00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: That a president is engaged in initiating war in Iran

590
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,960
and wanting to refuse to follow Congress and supporting Ukraine,

591
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:50,319
refusing to honor our agreements, is a reassertion of that

592
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,559
idea that it's Congress, not the president, that declares war.

593
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,680
So what I'm hopeful is in the same way that

594
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:59,319
Nixon's abuses led to reform that what we're talking about

595
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,920
right now, well not in this Congress, but in the

596
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,160
next Congress lead to a real reassertion of the war powers.

597
00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:07,079
And even if we won't see it in the next

598
00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:10,640
few months, I'm assuming that the Democrats will retake the House.

599
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,079
At least I'm hoping that the moment has to be seized.

600
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,160
And as you said too, the Democratic Party is not

601
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,640
focused on the reassertion of the congressional war power. But

602
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160
it is long overdue that we do exactly that.

603
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,079
Speaker 1: Okay, we got to take a breaker. Wendy's going to

604
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:27,920
throw me in podcast jail. Professor, please sit tight. We'll

605
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,440
be back in just a second. We have a lot

606
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,680
to cover, including oh, his name was Blanche. Let's talk

607
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,759
about twisted Todd when we return. This is the Oath

608
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:48,119
in the Office. Welcome back to the Oath and the Office.

609
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,240
I'm John Fugel Sang along with Professor Corey Breschneider Corey.

610
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,119
Two controversial personnel decisions right now generating just a bit

611
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,000
of scrutiny. The nomination of Donald Trump's personal attorney, Todd Blanche,

612
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,119
who defended him in his fraud cases in New York

613
00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,319
because he's a criminal defense attorney and he lost the case.

614
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,440
This is Todd Blanche, who was dispatched to go to

615
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:13,279
Jules Maxwell's cell and when he walked out, this child

616
00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:16,039
rapist had a cushy deal to go to a very

617
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:19,319
nice club fed prison that child rapists normally don't get

618
00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:21,799
to go to. So this is where we're at. Todd

619
00:31:21,799 --> 00:31:24,559
Blanche is dirtier than Donald Trump's hamper. But there's also

620
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,799
the appointment of William Pulty as acting Director of National

621
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:32,559
Intelligence while he's still running the Federal Housing Finance Agency.

622
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,599
This is creepy. Let's start with the fact that the

623
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,400
Senate has to approve this. The Framers really placed enormous

624
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,720
importance on Senate confirmation, and it feels like that's pretty

625
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,720
relevant right now. Right Hamilton said appointments are one of

626
00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:48,960
the most important checks on presidential power.

627
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:51,359
Speaker 4: Was he right? Absolutely?

628
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:54,119
Speaker 2: You know, I think we've been talking about the Framers

629
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:57,640
and their design and how although we've been wondering where

630
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,000
these supposed checks and balances are, He's starting to emerge.

631
00:32:01,559 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 4: A little bit.

632
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:04,759
Speaker 2: And I think one of the most powerful is the

633
00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:09,200
requirement that principal officers, including certainly the Attorney General of

634
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,519
the United States, face Senate confirmation and what that means,

635
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:18,440
certainly in contemporary times, is a hearing questions and in

636
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,480
some instances, and this is what I want to get to,

637
00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:26,759
a requirement agreements that are made that will have consequences

638
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:30,279
later on. So one of the most important confirmation hearings

639
00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:33,680
in the United States history was the confirmation of Elliott Richardson.

640
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,720
And when Elliot Richardson was confirmed this attorney general, before

641
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:39,960
the Senate voted to confirm him, they asked him a

642
00:32:40,079 --> 00:32:43,480
very specific question, will you pledge here to promise not

643
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,000
to fire the person investigating Richard Nixon, Archibald Cox, promise

644
00:32:48,119 --> 00:32:50,599
not to fire him? And when Richardson said yes, even

645
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,400
though he was a party loyalist, he saw himself not

646
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,640
as a Todd Blanche, but it's somebody who really cared

647
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,960
about the party, cared about the future of the party,

648
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,799
cared about Nixon. When he was told fire Cox, fire

649
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,920
the Nixon said, fire the person looking into my wrongdoing.

650
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:09,279
The president, the protocol said, wasn't supposed to do it himself.

651
00:33:09,319 --> 00:33:11,480
He needed the attorney general to do it and the

652
00:33:11,599 --> 00:33:15,200
law arguably, and Richardson said no, I can't why because

653
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,359
I promised in my confirmation hearing. And although Richardson, by

654
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,119
the way, is often seen as a kind of hero,

655
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:22,920
and it was a moment of virtue. It really was

656
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,319
the senators who pressed him to say, you know, to

657
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,599
pledge publicly that he wouldn't do it.

658
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,799
Speaker 4: It was just too embarrassing.

659
00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,559
Speaker 2: And so that starts to show you these hearings matter

660
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,079
both in hopefully they'll just reject the nominee because no

661
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,680
way is he qualified. And in the same way that

662
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,880
Harriet Myers and Bush's personal lawyer wasn't confirmed to be

663
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,480
a Supreme Court justice, this guy could be confirmed to

664
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,920
be Attorney General by a mile. But at minimum, if

665
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,319
even any principled Republican is going to claim to vote

666
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,079
for him, they shouldn't. They've got to really get these

667
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:57,240
pledges on the table to what number one, not engage

668
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,440
in the kind of prosecution of enemies that's been going on.

669
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. I have to bring it back to

670
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,519
the DOJ position again because we always hear the Department

671
00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:10,320
of Justice must be independent, right, I mean, god forbid,

672
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,719
you know Bill Clinton talks to someone on a tarmac,

673
00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:16,920
But constitutionally speaking, what does that actually mean that the

674
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,400
Justice Department must be independent? Like I think there's Republican

675
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,360
senators who will still be conservative enough, not obedient enough

676
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,519
that they'll be appalled. I remember I brought it up

677
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:30,360
to you last night on SiriusXM, the outrage of Republicans

678
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,320
over the Harriet Meyers nomination twenty two years ago. Now

679
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,440
there's going to be Republicans appalled by the fact that

680
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,679
this guy's trying to put his own criminal defense lawyer

681
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,239
from his own shady crimes as our nation's top cop.

682
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,679
When this guy's already proven to be quite amenable to

683
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,800
above others child rapists who get preferential treatment. Do you

684
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,679
think that Congress is this Senate is still craven enough

685
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:52,719
this man can pass.

686
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:55,159
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hoping is going to start to play out,

687
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,079
that the recognition that, first of all, remember you know,

688
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,159
as as hard as it's been for this administration to

689
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,199
recruit good people and it might be hard to recruit

690
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:08,119
a decent attorney general, having his personal lawyer serve as

691
00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:10,480
attorney general is really an insult.

692
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 4: To the entire system of government.

693
00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: The idea, what is an independent department of justice supposed

694
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,039
to be? First of all, I'm going to go back

695
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:18,920
to the origin of the Department of Justice in the

696
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,639
nineteenth century, during the Grant administration. What was it created

697
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:26,199
for it to enforce civil rights, to enforce the rights

698
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:30,119
of the most vulnerable, And what is it being used for?

699
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,880
What is the opposite of that, to prosecute political opponents.

700
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,280
And that's how Trump views the Department of Justice the

701
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,280
same as a kind of Roy Cohen, his personal lawyer

702
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,840
for a long time. Who he you know, he's always saying,

703
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,440
get me my new Roy Cohen. That's what he wants,

704
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,880
somebody who's just totally couldn't care less about the law,

705
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,199
totally corrupt, vicious Cohan. Of course, Roy Cohen was the

706
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,519
lawyer for McCarthy going out the Red Scare alleged communists

707
00:35:56,519 --> 00:35:57,119
in the government.

708
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,039
Speaker 1: That's arguably Donald Trump's Sith mass and Trump was his

709
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:02,159
evil sith Padawan.

710
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: Go on, So what is independence? It's the opposite of that.

711
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,519
It's saying no, it's saying what we often did see

712
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:10,760
actually in the first Trump administration, that the job of

713
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,639
the Attorney General is the chief law enforcement officer, not

714
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,599
to serve the personal interests of the president. And so

715
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,440
as that idea comes out and Democrats will hammer at it,

716
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,719
I just have to think that Republicans are going to

717
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,119
see no way can the guy who's the opposite of that, the.

718
00:36:27,039 --> 00:36:29,119
Speaker 4: President's personal lawyer, be this person?

719
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: And as you said last night and as I mentioned

720
00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:35,159
before today, Harriet Myers is sort of the perfect example.

721
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,440
By the way, Harriet Myers a much better would have

722
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,960
been a much better Supreme Court justice or attorney general than.

723
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: Well or then right, wasn't no, But it wasn't Harriet

724
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,599
Myers the one when he had to pull back on her,

725
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,079
we got Alito, Like, it's an interesting point. I remember

726
00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:54,119
when they had to pull back on you know, Oh god,

727
00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:55,800
who's the one who smoked weed? And we got Kennedy

728
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,920
out of that one. Back in the eighties.

729
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 4: It was a Ginsburg Ginsburg.

730
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Corey. What questions should senators ask

731
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,880
Todd Blanche regarding prosecutorial independence? What would you most want

732
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,480
to hear them ask this guy on camera?

733
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, we've got to move beyond

734
00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:17,280
the abstractions to the personal and to say, you know,

735
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,519
do you believe that it is the job of the

736
00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:24,239
attorney general, if asked to prosecute the president's personal enemies,

737
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,159
to say no? And then I think they've got to

738
00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:31,199
ask him about the specific cases of Letitia James and

739
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,199
James Comy and how can the government be involved in

740
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,639
what are clearly political prosecutions? And this has to be

741
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:39,440
a moment, you know, whenever you have the focus of

742
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:44,000
the American public to really embarrass the Department of Justice

743
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:47,400
and the Attorney General for allowing this to happen and

744
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,480
for acting as not just the president. I should say

745
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,519
personal lawyer. Doesn't quite capture it, because the personal lawyer

746
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:54,119
is still.

747
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,519
Speaker 4: Bound by the law. That's the obligation of any lawyer.

748
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,199
Speaker 2: This guy is acting as a thug and the Department

749
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,519
of Justice is acting as a criminal d tired and

750
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:04,599
that's what they've got to bring out. So do you

751
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:07,639
not agree that this is the obligation of the Department

752
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:10,440
of Justice to stand up to a president that would

753
00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:13,519
use you as his personal tool of revenge.

754
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,599
Speaker 1: You know, the Attorney General serves the Constitution, not the

755
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:20,599
president personally. We keep having to teach people this scory.

756
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,320
I want to move off with this, but why is

757
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:23,800
that distinction so critical here?

758
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,599
Speaker 2: Because when you have you know, the truth is at

759
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:28,519
the same time that we have this idea that we've

760
00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:32,159
been talking about all episode of dividing the powers between

761
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:36,280
the Congress, the judiciary, and the president. That the modern

762
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,320
presidency is just so powerful, more than two million people,

763
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,079
and when you have a president intent on crime, intent

764
00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:46,599
on dictatorship, it turns out that these other branches can

765
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:49,960
be crushed. And one of the places where the vulnerability

766
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,360
is most clear is in the office of the attorney general.

767
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,360
I am going to go back and do a little

768
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:59,639
more history the reason why the term unitary executive got

769
00:38:59,639 --> 00:38:59,960
its name.

770
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 4: You know, there's a lot to WoT with it.

771
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,679
Speaker 2: But there is a factual basis for it, which is

772
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,880
the Framers disagreed about whether or not we should have

773
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,119
an independently elected attorney general. Letitia James, who I just mentioned,

774
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,199
is in New York and was at the founding. The

775
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,599
Attorney General of New York was independently elected, and the

776
00:39:18,639 --> 00:39:20,880
Framers rejected that. They said, you know, we can trust

777
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,719
a president. A president will be a person of virtue,

778
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:26,760
and so we'll put the attorney general not as an

779
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,719
independently elected person, but within the president's cabinet. What a

780
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,719
mistake that turned out to be. Man, how much should

781
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,599
we have been saved if they didn't do that.

782
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: Well, So, this whole appointment of Bill Pulti as Acting

783
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,719
Director of National Intelligence is a whole different issue because

784
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:48,480
again he's replacing Telsea Gabbard, who resigned just recently. This

785
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:52,199
guy is still the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency.

786
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,159
He is a rabidly obedient Trump henchman, and he will

787
00:39:57,199 --> 00:40:00,400
hold both jobs at once. So because this guy only

788
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,119
the acting DNI, he's not going to have to go

789
00:40:03,159 --> 00:40:05,440
before the setup for confirmation. But I think a lot

790
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,320
of Senators, including Republicans, are furious about this. How weird

791
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,880
and disturbing is it when one guy simultaneously holds multiple

792
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:13,960
powerful positions.

793
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: Scoring Well, it's a symbol of how dysfunctional our government

794
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:17,920
has become.

795
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,119
Speaker 4: Because what is it about.

796
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 2: There are very few people who are going to pass

797
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,480
the Trump loyalty tests, and this is one of them.

798
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,119
And having done an okay job of loyalty, not of

799
00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:31,119
doing the actual job in one position, why not put

800
00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:31,760
him in another?

801
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 4: Now?

802
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: What's scary here is the DNI is created as a

803
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:41,239
cabinet position precisely out of the traditional worry that foreign

804
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,840
policy is not independent of Congress, that a minimum there

805
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,239
has to be oversight, and so requiring as was required by.

806
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 4: Legislation, the nineteen eighties.

807
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: A confirmation of the person who is really going to

808
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,880
be in charge of the entire intelligence oparatus is a

809
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,920
way for Congress to reassert its control. Now here's the

810
00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:02,840
problem you mentioned, and I just want to lay out

811
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,800
what this means. The idea that he's not going to

812
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,119
be subject to confirmation because he's not being appointed as

813
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,960
the true DNI is being appointed as an interim on

814
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,760
an interim basis, and that what that does is it

815
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,239
avoids confirmation, and that is a real loophole in what

816
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,079
we're talking about.

817
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is how they are bypassing constitutional scrutiny.

818
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,239
This is how they're getting around it. I mean, the

819
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:30,519
Senate confirmation feels increasingly less meaningful as these presidents mainly

820
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:33,440
Trump and others, have done it rely on the acting officials.

821
00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:37,559
What questions would you want Congress asking this guy Pulty

822
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,159
if he had to appear before confirmation hearing, because again,

823
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,719
this guy has no experience in security agencies at all.

824
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,880
He's here because as director of Federal Housing Finance Agency,

825
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,320
he uses his access to mortgage documents to harass people.

826
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,199
Donald Trump doesn't like. This is the guy that Donald

827
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,280
Trump used to harass Letitia James, to harass Lisa Cook,

828
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,360
to harass a Shift. So now he's taking this henchman

829
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,320
who only uses government jobs to go after people at

830
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,199
the behest of the executive and he's going to give

831
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:14,119
this guy access to all the apparatus of national security

832
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,159
to go after his enemies, right.

833
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: I mean, that's exactly the reason why you know, the

834
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,159
Senate confirmation was required for the DNI, and now Trump

835
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,960
is avoiding that by using this I said interim or acting,

836
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:31,280
appointing him on an acting basis.

837
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 4: But there still is a possibility of hearings.

838
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: You know, the president's principal officers can be compelled to

839
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,599
testify before Congress and oversight hearings. And so even though

840
00:42:41,599 --> 00:42:43,960
we won't get the questions that I'm about to suggest

841
00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:46,920
as a matter of confirmation, we might get them as

842
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,119
a matter of oversight. And yeah, I think the same

843
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,000
questions that I was suggesting Blanche has to be asked.

844
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:56,440
You know, did you think it was appropriate to use

845
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,719
your position in order to enable the president's political prosecutions

846
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,920
and handing over information that was really used to go

847
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:05,840
after the president's political opponents.

848
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: That's got to be exhibit number one.

849
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 2: But I think too the incompetence in the same way

850
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:14,639
that the lack of independence of Todd Blanche, the incombinance

851
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,960
of this individual has to be brought out. You know,

852
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:21,519
what gives you the ability to manage the entire foreign

853
00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:25,039
policy apparatus of the United States? You know, when it

854
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:28,519
comes to intelligence, at least, what qualifications?

855
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 4: What job have you done?

856
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: And so I think it's partly you know about his

857
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,599
past violations of ethics and law, but it also is

858
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,000
going to be about his incompetence and totally in the

859
00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:44,519
inappropriateness of the appointment. I think too they might use

860
00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:46,679
these kind of hearings too to point out the fact that,

861
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,400
you know, why are you acting in a role that's

862
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,039
supposed to be subject to confirmation?

863
00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 4: Why is this being abused?

864
00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 2: Because you could obviously not withstand up confirmation hearing, So

865
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,400
they can use it as a kind of they can

866
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,679
find a way to congress to create a kind of

867
00:44:01,039 --> 00:44:02,440
proxy confirmation here.

868
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,159
Speaker 4: And even if this acting position is what's being used.

869
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: Can I ask you about what's going on at sixty

870
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,400
minutes Scory, because this has been quite fascinating. Scott Pelly

871
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:14,480
just was recorded in a meeting with the program's new

872
00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:17,920
EP and pointed out that this guy had very slender

873
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,360
qualifications for the job. And he said that Barry Weiss

874
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,000
is here to murder sixty minutes, which I think a

875
00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:25,719
lot of people would agree with. And they're very proud

876
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,960
to say, Hey, broadcast as an ice cube. It's melting.

877
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,519
This is after Anderson Cooper steps down from the show,

878
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,440
you know, and the First Amendment protects freedom of the press.

879
00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:39,400
So they fired him anyway, they fired him for coming

880
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,760
out and saying all this. And you've talked all the

881
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,880
time about how, yeah, the press has got total protection,

882
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,920
but we're in the age of corporate media and we're

883
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,039
now in the age of stochastic self censorship. The Constitution

884
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:56,400
doesn't guarantee courageous journalism. Why is that distinction important? You know,

885
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,400
the founder's expected conflict between government officials and journalist, right,

886
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:01,920
that was always part of the plan.

887
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the government has found a way to

888
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,960
both pressure through the FCC and threatening CBS's license to

889
00:45:10,159 --> 00:45:14,119
have a kind of classical government censorship without being subject

890
00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,000
to the obvious First Amendment lawsuits that would come from

891
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:18,960
the government shutting down speech.

892
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 4: In a more.

893
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: Direct way, so Scott Pelly can't bring a First Amendment

894
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,920
claim against CBS. You know, maybe he could try to

895
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,440
figure out how to bring a claim against the FCC

896
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,159
head who has just repeatedly threatened the license of CBS,

897
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:35,719
and I do think that is a kind of First

898
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,079
Amendment violation, but he certainly can't bring it against CBS itself.

899
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,239
You and I had a robust discussion with Mike Pesca,

900
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,280
independent journalists and podcaster in a previous episode. I'd urge

901
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,960
people to go back and listen to it. It was

902
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,880
a great, great discussion slash debate where we were really

903
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,199
pushing the idea that this is not normal journalism.

904
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,599
Speaker 4: And Pesca was a little more sympathetic to Barry Weiss.

905
00:45:59,039 --> 00:46:01,039
Speaker 2: We should have him back, because I just don't see

906
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:03,639
how you could be now we know this from Pelly.

907
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,519
We didn't know it before, but now we know it.

908
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:07,519
We suspected it, now we know it directly.

909
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 4: She was doing.

910
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:12,159
Speaker 2: Things like saying in the story that he did about

911
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:14,960
the murder in Minnesota, correct me if I'm wrong.

912
00:46:15,039 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: John Scott Pelley has said that she wanted the editors

913
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,159
to show the protesters as looking more menacing and violent

914
00:46:21,519 --> 00:46:24,039
and that it was very important to her that CBS's

915
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:27,280
narrative was Trump's narrative that this woman was trying to

916
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,679
run a guy over in her car when she was

917
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:31,719
actually turning the wheels away from him to get away

918
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:32,000
from her.

919
00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:34,599
Speaker 2: So that's right, she was trying to get away, and

920
00:46:34,639 --> 00:46:36,440
I think the car was aimed away.

921
00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: She wanted to claim the opposite.

922
00:46:38,079 --> 00:46:40,280
Speaker 2: So, in other words, she was just manipulating the basic

923
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,440
facts of the story in order to Barry Weiss and

924
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,760
urging edits that would really just make Ice look good

925
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,840
and hide from the fact that there was essentially a

926
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,320
murder committed here.

927
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 4: And you know, what better evidence do you need for

928
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:55,320
the fact.

929
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: And let's just say it plainly that Barry Weis is

930
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,599
a MAGA supporter and not some independent sure, and that

931
00:47:00,679 --> 00:47:03,719
she is, oh yeah, crushing the most important This isn't

932
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,079
just any news show, of course, sixty minutes the most

933
00:47:06,119 --> 00:47:11,880
important journalistic television show probably in history and is being destroyed.

934
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,119
And thankfully we're at least learning the truth of what's

935
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:16,800
going on there because of Scott Pelley telling us after

936
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:17,360
his firing.

937
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it's just crazy. We are not

938
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,679
seeing anticipatory obedience. This is just obedience, and it's gonna

939
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,679
be interesting seeing how it plays out. We have to

940
00:47:26,679 --> 00:47:28,639
take a break back in just a moment for the

941
00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:30,760
final act, and we still have a lot to come.

942
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,199
John Bolton versus Trump. Professor, who am I supposed to

943
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:34,760
root against?

944
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 3: Here?

945
00:47:35,119 --> 00:47:36,159
Speaker 1: This is the oath in the office.

946
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 4: Don't go away.

947
00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:47,519
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John Fugel,

948
00:47:47,559 --> 00:47:50,639
said Corey Man. We are just packed with stories this week.

949
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,519
Let's talk about John Bolton, the sentence I have never

950
00:47:54,679 --> 00:47:59,639
wanted to say, former National Security advisor under Donald Trump,

951
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,360
a man who waited his entire life to bomb Iran,

952
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,039
and now he doesn't get to be part of the party.

953
00:48:04,639 --> 00:48:08,800
John Bolden has reached an agreement with the DOJ to

954
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,960
plead guilty for a terrible crime. A terrible crime that

955
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,599
Donald Trump's DOJ is very upset about for those who

956
00:48:14,639 --> 00:48:16,639
don't know. If you want to know the crime that

957
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,519
Donald Trump has taken him down, John Bolton for committing

958
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,639
He pled guilty to retaining classified documents in a private diary.

959
00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:26,920
In one count. He's going to face up to sixty

960
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,960
months in jail in a fine of two point twenty

961
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,360
five million, one of several prominent Trump foes indicted already,

962
00:48:33,559 --> 00:48:37,280
along with James Comy and New York's ag Letitia James Corey.

963
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,679
One of the most difficult constitutional questions is distinguishing legitimate

964
00:48:40,679 --> 00:48:47,199
prosecution from politically motivated bullshit. How should citizens evaluate that distinction,

965
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:48,880
especially in this case.

966
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,599
Speaker 2: You know, I do think just to start off that

967
00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:53,880
there is a first of all, good point about the

968
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,400
fact that the President of the United States was under

969
00:48:56,440 --> 00:49:01,079
indictment for under the espionage hack, for keeping secrets amar

970
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:06,800
Alago in his bathroom in other places. And yet it's like.

971
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: It's like he's attacking people for committing adultery at this point.

972
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:09,159
Speaker 2: You know.

973
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:10,199
Speaker 4: But I have to.

974
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: Having said that, you know, and I'm going to go

975
00:49:12,599 --> 00:49:15,199
on to raise some complicated issues in the Bolton case,

976
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,679
it is different than the others. You know, if you're

977
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,280
a prosecutor involved in the prosecution of James Comy for

978
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:22,960
saying that you want to eighty six to the President

979
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,239
of the United States and claiming this is some sort

980
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,639
of threat, or going after Letitia James for some you know,

981
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,760
innocuous form that she filled out in a mortgage application,

982
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,159
there really is a question about whether or not you

983
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:40,159
should be disbarred. I just think that anybody involved putting

984
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:42,880
their name on documents involved in any way, those are

985
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,840
political prosecutions full stop. They are part of the destruction

986
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,159
of democracy that this president is attempting.

987
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 4: The Bolton case is different.

988
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: It began, first of all, during the Biden administration. It

989
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,400
is more complicated. There's a lot of experts who have

990
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,360
looked at this who think that he is guilty of

991
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,199
the serious crime. But now here's the button where it

992
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:06,000
gets complicated. What do you do when there is a

993
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:10,079
crime committed, but the motivation for pursuing it, you know,

994
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,840
at the behest of a president who's intent on revenge.

995
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 4: You know, how do you understand that?

996
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 2: And I guess my thought is that it's tainted, that

997
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,039
the president's motivation of political revenge taints what might otherwise

998
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:25,599
be a legitimate prosecution. Now that's a more complicated sentence

999
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,039
than in the Lea teacher James case or in the

1000
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:30,679
James Call Me case. But I do think that's what's

1001
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:33,760
going on here, that it's both a legitimate prosecution. No,

1002
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,199
I don't think that the prosecutors involved here are you know,

1003
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:40,079
so over their skis that they should be disbarred. But

1004
00:50:40,159 --> 00:50:42,960
I also think that the president's revenge campaign and his

1005
00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:47,280
statements about Bolton tainted and make it illegitimate. And you know,

1006
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,719
he's probably played guilty. That's how he's gotten out of it.

1007
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,719
It also does show, by the way that without full

1008
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,760
convictions and going to trial, that the chilling effect is

1009
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,880
very real at what's going on here, and the fact

1010
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,199
that this person, with an enormous reason or it's pleads guilty,

1011
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,480
you know, it shows you you don't need a full

1012
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:07,079
conviction in order to have a chilling effect of this president.

1013
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, a prosecution can be legally valid, it

1014
00:51:11,519 --> 00:51:15,400
can also still raise concerns about selective enforcement, and it

1015
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,199
can be insanely corruptly hypocritical while still being legally valid.

1016
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,119
That's what we're living through here, right.

1017
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a nice way to put it.

1018
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 2: You know, it's not as simple as did he do

1019
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,800
it or not? I think again, it's very different than

1020
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,800
the other cases. There is evidence that he broke the law,

1021
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,639
and you know, the crimes are not they have a

1022
00:51:33,679 --> 00:51:36,960
seriousness to the national security matters. But yet, when you

1023
00:51:37,039 --> 00:51:39,519
have a president of the United States who's just on

1024
00:51:39,559 --> 00:51:42,920
this revenge tour. Really all of it, all of the

1025
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,960
actions of the Department of Justice becomes suspect, and especially

1026
00:51:46,039 --> 00:51:46,599
this one.

1027
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to ask you one last question

1028
00:51:49,039 --> 00:51:51,960
about this. Are there lessons of Americans should be learning

1029
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,239
from other democracies where legal systems turned it to corrupt

1030
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:57,960
little tools of political retaliation.

1031
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,119
Speaker 2: Look, you know, the definition of a system of law

1032
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,480
is that you don't just have a president going after

1033
00:52:05,559 --> 00:52:08,719
their political opponents. And if you look at really any dictatorship,

1034
00:52:09,039 --> 00:52:13,400
you know I mentioned Pinochet before, or the related Argentinian

1035
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,159
military dictatorship, what happened to political opponents. They were disappeared,

1036
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:22,159
they were killed, they were imprisoned. And what defined those

1037
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:25,599
moments was a destruction of the rule of law and

1038
00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:28,679
an instance in which the authorities or the dictators simply

1039
00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:31,559
imprisoned their political opponents. Trump has made it so clear

1040
00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:35,239
that that's what he cares about. Nixon himself was sympathetic.

1041
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,480
In fact, you know, his ally Kissinger couldn't understand why

1042
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,440
there were complaints in the press when there was a

1043
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,239
military overthrow of an elected leader Allende in Chile. And

1044
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,840
when you listen to the president, you know he admires dictators.

1045
00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:51,519
Speaker 4: So that is what he's trying to do. And if

1046
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:52,000
you want to.

1047
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: Know why we have a podcast called The Oath in

1048
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,039
the Office and why democracy matters a president taking an

1049
00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:01,400
oath to respect the law. It's to avoid being disappeared.

1050
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,239
And you know, any political opponent in Trump's world would

1051
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,840
be subject to the same treatment as call me and James.

1052
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,719
I have to just say a sentence about the call

1053
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:14,639
me indictments because going after call me for you know,

1054
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,840
the most innocuous statement eighty six, you know, which means

1055
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:22,119
get rid of, not kill or threatened in any physical way.

1056
00:53:22,639 --> 00:53:24,559
You know, if you can bring a prosecution like that,

1057
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:26,440
you could prosecute anyone exactly.

1058
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: You can prosecute comedians, you can prosecute any kind of satire,

1059
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,039
which brings me to I want to end the show

1060
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:33,920
in a positive note, Corey. Yeah, and Donald Trump lost

1061
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,719
another massive court case this week. US District Judge Leo

1062
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,119
serrocan struck down Trump's one hundred thousand dollars fee that

1063
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:45,119
he invented to impose on H one B visus in

1064
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:47,920
the case of California versus Mark Wayne Mullen. Trump signed

1065
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,199
Proclamation one oh nine seven three. It adds this one

1066
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:55,239
hundred grand payment requirement for H one B petitions. This

1067
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,159
is the creepiest thing I've ever heard of before. In

1068
00:53:57,159 --> 00:54:01,199
other words, it's a fast track for immigrants who can

1069
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,400
afford a bribe. And you know, the plaintiffs have said,

1070
00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:06,280
we're going to have so much harm from this new

1071
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,800
payment system. It's going to be harder to hire teachers,

1072
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,400
and you know, it's going to exacerbate teachers shortages, and

1073
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,599
it's going to impact our ability to staff public colleges

1074
00:54:14,599 --> 00:54:17,480
and universities. It's going to hurt academic research. So the

1075
00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:20,599
judge ruled that this one hundred thousand dollars visa fee

1076
00:54:20,639 --> 00:54:25,119
was an unlawful tax because Congress never authorized it. Is

1077
00:54:25,159 --> 00:54:28,239
this fundamentally an immigration case or is this a constitutional

1078
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:29,440
separation of powers case?

1079
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:33,119
Speaker 2: Well, I think the President wanted to say, and this

1080
00:54:33,159 --> 00:54:35,199
is a great note to end on because it really

1081
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,480
does encapsulate the pushback that we've talked about. And we

1082
00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:42,320
ended by talking about the threat of dictatorship and political prosecutions,

1083
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,519
but we began by talking about the optimistic moment in

1084
00:54:45,559 --> 00:54:47,320
which Congress is asserting itself.

1085
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 4: And that's what this case really shows. It brings us.

1086
00:54:50,119 --> 00:54:53,199
Speaker 2: Back to one of my favorite phrases that we've all

1087
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,840
heard from grade school on which is no taxation without representation.

1088
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,559
The very basis for the American was to say Parliament

1089
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:06,000
can't engage in so called virtual representation, where it says

1090
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,760
it knows best what it is in our interests. If

1091
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,280
we're going to be tax we have to be represented.

1092
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,199
And that's what this case is about. Because the president's

1093
00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:16,360
claiming all the matters of immigration, I can do whatever

1094
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,159
I want, and this judge says, no, this is a tax.

1095
00:55:19,679 --> 00:55:22,559
And any tax, whether it's a tariff, by the way,

1096
00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:24,320
and this comes on the heel of the tariff's case,

1097
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,639
it's the same point there, or an international tariff, or

1098
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,880
a tax on visa or visas, or a domestic tax,

1099
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:36,119
it's Congress that does. That's what the American Revolution was about,

1100
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:39,400
and that's what was instituted in our constitution. No taxation

1101
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,679
without representation. We need our representative body, the Congress, to

1102
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,920
enact a tax. And this judge said so clearly, you're

1103
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,400
not a dictator. So we talk about the danger of dictatorship,

1104
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,800
and this is the pushback against it. I've got as

1105
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,760
a final note mention my dear colleague Gordon Wood, who.

1106
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,599
Speaker 4: Passed the places this week.

1107
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:01,639
Speaker 2: You know, he really talked about the radicalism of the

1108
00:56:01,679 --> 00:56:06,079
American Revolution, which is partly about no taxation without representation,

1109
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:08,559
but it's also about the idea than in this country

1110
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,599
we all see ourselves as equals, that we're not born

1111
00:56:11,679 --> 00:56:15,159
into privilege, and this president is really trying to undermine that.

1112
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 4: And what Gordon.

1113
00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:19,119
Speaker 2: Wood taught in his most famous book, The Radicalism of

1114
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:22,760
the American Revolution, was this idea that no taxation without

1115
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,800
representation encapsulated a much bigger idea, which is that Americans

1116
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:30,400
see each other as equals. He talked about the idea

1117
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,239
of a credle constitution, one based in an idea of equality,

1118
00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:37,079
and that you know, that's very different than one based

1119
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:40,079
on birth. And that's what we're all fighting for. And so,

1120
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,559
you know, tribute to my dear Colli. He was ninety

1121
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:47,239
two years old, somebody who really inspired me to talk

1122
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,119
about the American Founding. He is universally regarded, not to

1123
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,920
you know, often they say in obituaries, a major figure

1124
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,880
or something in the American Founding. You know, he's being

1125
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,679
referred to correctly as the most important of the American Founding.

1126
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 4: And he really was.

1127
00:57:03,039 --> 00:57:05,639
Speaker 2: And so I'm pleased to end on that note and

1128
00:57:06,119 --> 00:57:08,599
like to think that he would have, you know, loved

1129
00:57:08,599 --> 00:57:11,639
this idea of the pushback of the American people against

1130
00:57:11,639 --> 00:57:14,800
this wanna be dictator on behalf of the true founders

1131
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,760
of the United States, including one person that, of course

1132
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,119
he admired, James Madison.

1133
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:22,039
Speaker 1: We've talked for a lot about absolutely, and Ken Burns

1134
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:24,920
had a lovely obituary for him as well. Thank you

1135
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,320
for mentioning mister wood Professor, and thank you for another

1136
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:30,400
exciting edition. I feel much smarter and I feel less

1137
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,079
bleak about facing what used to be America.

1138
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:33,559
Speaker 4: Corey.

1139
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:35,599
Speaker 1: What's the best way for our listeners to follow you

1140
00:57:35,679 --> 00:57:37,239
and keep up with your brilliance?

1141
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 2: Subscribe you know wherever you get your podcasts. If you're

1142
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:45,159
listening to us the first time, welcome, hit that subscribe button, leave.

1143
00:57:45,039 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 4: A review, Tell a friend.

1144
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,079
Speaker 2: You can find us also on the oath in the

1145
00:57:49,079 --> 00:57:51,760
office substack. We're also on YouTube if you want to

1146
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,840
watch us not just listen to us. And thanks so much.

1147
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,880
This podcast has really taken off. We started with zero,

1148
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:01,320
we're now really every week in the top four of

1149
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:05,880
Apple podcasts each episode, and it's growing and growing and

1150
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,559
we're becoming one of the top podcasts for information about politics,

1151
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:13,480
about the law, about government, and certainly about the threat

1152
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,440
to this democracy.

1153
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, professor. I want to thank our listeners

1154
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,719
as well, and I want to thank you and Wendy

1155
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,679
and Bewolf and everyone who puts the whole show together.

1156
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,880
Y'all can follow me on Serious XM Progress five nights

1157
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,519
a week as well as my substack, and my book

1158
00:58:27,559 --> 00:58:30,639
is called Separation of Church and Hate. And Corey, I

1159
00:58:30,679 --> 00:58:32,719
just want to say how amazing it was this week

1160
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,119
to see Donald Trump get to ruin an NBA Finals

1161
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:39,519
game before he goes to ruin the World Cup, which

1162
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:42,199
will set the stage for him to ruin the Summer Olympics.

1163
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:45,079
We live in amazing times. Thank you so much, professor

1164
00:58:45,119 --> 00:58:46,840
for keeping us smart and keeping us safe.

1165
00:58:47,039 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: Thank you, John, what a pleasure.

1166
00:58:48,719 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: We'll see you guys next week on The Oath and

1167
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,679
the Office.